Comprehensible Input (How Much Do I Need to Understand?)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
- What percentage of a foreign language needs to be comprehensible in order for material to be useful?
This is a topic of much debate in the language learning community. I really think it depends what you're trying to do.
Robin MacPherson's video about reading:
• The Secret To READING ...
Matt vs Japan has some good videos about this, as do other language learning channels. The specific question I answer in this video is whether a comprehension level of 5% is still worthwhile and to that I answer "no". It may be of some benefit but it's not worthwhile, because you could be doing something that would increase your understanding of the language much faster.
Resources like Duolingo boast having a lot of material but in truth, there are more words to learn in the opening two chapters of a novel than in the entire Duolingo course whether you are learning French, Swedish, Russian, German or Esperanto. So it's important that we understand when the best time to start reading that novel or listening to that podcast or watching that TH-cam video is, because tools that can give your comprehensible input are much more effective than Duolingo.
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I think you're the most realistic language learner on TH-cam! You talk about the "bad" stuff of language learning too and that's what makes me feel better about myself to be honest... You actually motivate me to study, while watching other youtubers just gives me more anxiety 😂
I totally agree with Evelyn's Library. You are a valuable gift for all of us.
Thank you Evelyn!
I plan on some videos in the coming weeks (one in particular that I've already filmed) that explain why I am giving advice on LL even though I am not an expert. So hopefully it starts making sense to everyone. I reeeeeally appreciate the support, thank you!
@@daysandwords I'll be waiting for the new videos! And I think I should be thanking you for all the useful information and advice you give!
@@daysandwords don’t need to be an expert to have valuable and worthwhile opinions and important things to say. Your realistic but not cynical outlook on language learning is super helpful, especially when every other language learning TH-camr is selling their own method that they swear works the best. Even if their method or service works great, the constant branding and lack of “hey if this type of learning doesn’t work for you, here’s this” gets frustrating
I think I understood 60% of the meaning in this video.
That's good you understood so much.
Try and say/type this next time "I think I understood about 60% *of what was said *in this video"
The irony
just watch it 50 times
@@richardhartung1576doesn’t watching the same thing limit your input given that more input the best?
8:00 It's not your English mindset. It ALWAYS HAPPEN. The subtitles catch our attention, I've experienced it with my native language and the automatic subtitles that pop up in TH-cam and I start to read instead of listen. It's crazy but that's how our brain works...
Reading is an automatic process. It is very difficult to inhibit this process. Do you know the Stroop test ?
It is really impressive : you have four phases. The first and the fourth are the most important. During the first phase, you have to read the most color names as possible. The color names are written in black. Generally, we can read 115 color names in 45 seconds and the standard deviation is 15.
During the fourth phase, you also have to say color names, but it is a bit different. This time, the color names are written in different colors (for example, the word "blue" is written in red, the word "green" is written in yellow and so on) and you have to say the color in which the word is written (if I consider my previous example, you had to say "red", then "yellow" and so on) ! It is much more difficult than the first phase. Generally, we read say 40 color names in 45 seconds and the standard deviation is 7.
The difference beetween 115 and 40 is really huge !
personally i can focus on a movie if it has subtitles
Indeed, even in my target language I understand more of what I hear when the subtitles are off. I keep getting distracted by the urge to read them.
I always use subtitles in the same language as the show. I find that hearing French and reading French subtitles is extremely helpful. My reading comprehension is fairly good, but the French accent and modes of speech are hard for me to hear. So, I hear the words and read them at the same time. It's astonishing how often I understand the written words over the spoken. Once I know exactly what the words are the person is speaking, I will rewind and re-watch to catch the nuances. Most the time I swear that the French just mumble their words.... and the first time I heard "Je suis" pronounced as "schweee" I was dumbfounded. But they really do pronounce it like that at times.
I have read "Harry Potter and the philosophers stone" in my native language (german) about six times. Therefore I almost always know what will come next when reading a sentence because I am so familiar with it. I am currently listening to the Italian audiobook and I have already ordered the book version. It works so well because even though my level is still rather low (A2-B1) I always know what is happening no matter my literal understanding. I love how the Italian narrator narrates the book in a more emotional way than the German narrator did and I'm looking forward to doing the same thing with "Chamber of Secrets".
Great videos by the way your insights are very interesting and I love your humor. :)
That is the same way I started learning German as a native English speaker. It worked well.
Clarabella 2000 Do you think this would also work for movies? I have about 10 or so movies that I always come back to and know by heart, do you think it would work in the same way as your books?
@@nemesiszer0708 Yes, it does, at least in my experience
Braeden Spradley
Yes it does. I have the Rugrats movies and a couple other movies memorized line by line. So watching it in another language I still understand
Watching a TV show or a movie in a language you don't understand automatically provides some comprehensible input just by virtue of being able to see what's going on. The more you watch it, the more you'll associate the spoken language with what you're seeing.
Audio books don't have this advantage unless there are sound effects (and even then not much extra-linguistic context). The spoken language itself, with no visual clues, provides no hints of meaning to grab onto.
I think you have to make a distinction between not understanding tv because you don't know enough words, and not understanding because your brain can't parse the sounds yet.
I've often had the experience where it takes me an entire season of a tv show to get used to the actors' voices. Often I don't understand a lot until the last few episodes. When I rewatch the first episode again, I found that I actually knew and could hear all the words. I just couldn't hear them in real time yet.
Just because it seems like you're wasting time doesn't mean that your brain isn't working hard to understand and learn.
Absolutely - sorry, I didn't mean to sound like 15% of MEANING was a waste of time.
The thing is... you KNOW when it's a waste of time. You KNOW when your brain has switched off because you can't understand. There is no better test than just to think "Am I still paying attention?"
But yeah, the reason I am so vague about percentages here and I keep saying like "Hmm, 40%" or "20-25%" is that this is going to be judged by feeling. Because of HOW I've learned my languages, I actually almost never have a problem parsing the words and hearing them in real time. In fact I understand an awful lot of stuff that I in fact DON'T UNDERSTAND the words for, e.g. if someone says "I think that at the end of the day you can come up with all the theories that you want, but what you end up with is a student, a language learner, and they have to find a way to keep themselves engaged."
A French teacher actually said this to me and I understood her. Believe me, I did not and do not know every word she used. But because of my approach, rapidity of comprehension is not a problem, and I'm also good at filling in blanks.
So basically I am trying to make the distinction you are talking about without talking about exactly which one is which... the learner will know when they really don't get it and what is too hard. Maybe I just made that as clear as mud, I dunno haha.
So I’m native German and I’ve binge watched how I met ur mother in English with English subtitles.A few weeks later I watched two German (!) Videos about Historic events and the first one had subtitles that I kept because I didn’t care. However, the second video didn’t have subtitles and for the first 5-10 min I really struggled to fully understand the video even though it wasn’t about a complex topic and it was in my native language. So the problem isn’t ( only) that u want to use ur native language but just that it seems like reading is less hard then listening. At least for some people
Yes, something might offer only 5% comprehensible input, but it might offer a huge boost in motivation and a desire to learn the language. Keeping your "enthusiasm" meter full is crucial in language learning. I advocate eating the equivalent of "junk meals" (like your McDonald's analogy) from time to time in your learning development, simply for the reason that it is fun, relaxing, and makes you appreciate the sounds and feel of the language.
Which language are you learning?
Baking shows and reality shows in my target language tick that box for me. I understand them very well (they're truly language brain candy bc they're so formulaic and the vocabulary very familiar) but it's relaxing and they speak naturally.
Perhaps one of the best polyglot learning channels on YT...I have watched a lot of language learning channels looking for tips on hacking learning. So many are filled with stunts that offer no help and may even demotivate with their supposed outlandish ability in short order. Awesome realistic leveraged advice on this channel, superb.
Thank you Kat!
I teach Spanish and French. I start with a fairy tale that the kids are probably already familiar with, like Goldilocks or the 3 Little Pigs. I do a bilingual summary, taking key sentences out of the text, then reading them in L1 and L2. Then read the story in L1. Then play a native speaker reading the story in L2 or a video in L2 with L2 subtitles. Then I repeat this 3 days in a row. Some of the kids probably tune out. But most like it if I use a familiar childrens fairy tale. And then they are understanding real native language speakers and reading the target language very fast.
You should make a TH-cam channel doing this!
I'm currently watching Avatar the Last Airbender in Dutch and I would say I'm understanding roughly 90% of what is said in real-time. I think, for me, this is the optimal level of understanding, because it allows me to very easily infer the meaning of words I don't know through context.
I'm also currently listening to the audiobook of the first book in the "Ranger's Apprentice" series. There's a lot less understanding there, of course, because there's no visual context, and the reader speaks much faster than the actors in ATLA, so I would estimate ~80-85% understanding of the meaning and 60-70% understanding of individual words, but it's a lot more helpful for practice understanding native connected speech.
Jamichael0303 I’m learning Dutch but Ik Ben heel slecht
Podcasts are the greatest thing to learn a language when can understand more than 80%
I probably don't agree with "the greatest"... IMO you need a bit of everything to really get to that highly proficient level, but yes podcasts are definitely good, especially to get that more conversational tone to your own speaking.
Reading is better for those top "commonly uncommon"... words that don't seem at all unusual to a native speaker but actually rarely come up, like "confidentiality" or "submerge".
Best for comprehensible input is Prof. Brown at Poly-glot-a-lot channel. Scroll to the bottom of list of videos for the main video with instructions. 1,100 hours for nearly all languages for basic fluency.
As for subtitles, best with subtitles in the target language with speaking in the target language too.
All of Prof. Krashen videos help to understand the acquisition method. No grammar, no translation, no memorization.
I think 80-90% is a much better and faster way of learning. But the best way is just to add a few new linked words at a time. Though I don't know where to find such content. It should be a special app.
You're killing it with these videos. I spent so many wasted years either doing things that were too easy or way too hard, and I stagnated. This stagnation is really reflected in my third language, Mandarin, but it took me getting to a fairly high level in my second language, Spanish, through doing things I actually enjoy, i.e. reading books and listening to podcasts, in levels not too terribly difficult but not too easy either (Krashen's i+1), that I made huge strides, and I can now apply this too my Mandarin studies. My biggest issue is finding that sweet spot in terms of understanding when it comes to Mandarin resources. A lot of the resources I find are still harder than I would like (I maybe understand 25-30% of it), so I just have to be a little more deliberate in going through the material.
Yeah, I think this is a totally different thing with Asian languages. With French, German etc. 10-20% comes naturally, and getting that up to 30 doesn't take too long.
But Matt vs Japan says even 25-30% is enough, you just have to stick it out for longer. Personally I think that would frustrate me too much, but one can't deny the long term effectiveness of his approach haha.
@@daysandwords I've been at Mandarin for going on seven years and it still stresses me out and I still feel stuck somewhere in the low intermediate range 🤷🏽♂️ it is what it is
@@anduril2695 true. So many unfamiliar words in that language. They don't use loan words from English or other languages at all.
@@matthewbitter532 Chinese do have loan words especially for things that originate from other countries or new things that initially can't be found in China.
Eg: 芭蕾 （pinyin: ba lei for ballet)
高尔夫 （pinyin: Gao er Fu for golf )
保龄球 （pinyin: Bao Ling qiu for bowling )
卡通 （ pinyin: ka tong for cartoon)
脱口秀 （pinyin: tuo kou xiu for talk show ) and many other words.
@@darianprotho6622 That´s very common in many other languages too. In spanish, for instance, you have 'fútbol' taken from the english term 'football', and the same with 'golf', whereas ballet is directly taken from the french word as it happens in english.
In general, I suggest really studying about 1000ish words and common phrases before really trying to jump into native never material. Before that, reading through some grammar lessons or learning vocab has been the most helpful to me in the very beginner stages.
Funny, I think a guy did that...
th-cam.com/video/6vkEHdPAcgA/w-d-xo.html
I like listening to songs over and over again for the repetitive input, it's the most fun
Great video. Probably the best channel on TH-cam for language learning. Keep up the good work
This is interesting. I’m actually super patient, so I’m very happy to read something starting with as little as 0% comprehension, simply because I know my growth is actually going to be much faster precisely because I’m running into tons and tons of new words. But with listening, yeah, that’s different. I definitely prefer a transcript sometimes.
I always have subtitles on everything. If it's a language I speak, then the subtitles are in the same language as the original audio.
Very helpful video. Thank you very much. I was just wondering and asking myself this question. Great I found this video.
subtitles are incredibly helpful. you just need *good* subtitles in the language that u r learning. watching frnch stuuf with french subtitles is the best thing honestly. ups my understanding by 30% at least. just don do enb subs
@Alex understanding spoken language at least for me is a lot harder than written language. Even with my first language or English i often appreciate having subtitles. It helps make it clearer what you heard. It helps to decode the sounds and that goes double for any language that you're still kind of unfamiliar with the pronounciation like ofc I'm know French pronounciation but I haven't spent multiple hours every day listening to ppl speaking French in the past 5 years. So like it's good having subs help that
Can I just say so far you are my favorite channel that talks about language learning. I just completed 20 weeks of Rosetta Stone and I’m now starting on Busuu as you suggested. But when I try to watch something in my target language on TH-cam a) I can’t drag myself away from the subtitles to actually help with my hearing comprehension and b)even if it’s on a topic I usually love, with my low level of comprehension/input not only do I hate it and my brain turns off but I feel as though I don’t get much out of it. I was trying to do more “immersion” suggested by Matt v Japan but I think in early stages it’s a waste of time and becomes very frustrating fast
Agree with the idea of spending time building the vocabulary and basic grammar structure first. My comprehension in my graded readers and BBC's website in my target language skyrocketed in two weeks of doing Anki and Duolingo every day. Those apps helped me build a foundation so I could get over 70% comprehension in my reader and about half in BBC's news articles. Doing it with ONLY input sounds nice but the time is just not efficient (in my opinion).
I'm just above beginner in Italian. And yeah, my mind shuts down when too much of some text or speech is incomprehensible. I've decided that in order to advance (understand native content) I need to learn a lot of vocabulary, and the best way to do that is to learn words in context. I bought a book that gives me 2k of the most common Italian words in sentences with translations. I'm slowly making my way thru it. I'm not memorizing the sentences, just reading them multiple times to let the meaning of the words sink in over time. Seems to be working. I'm finding that more & more of what I read & listen to is more & more comprehensible.
30-50%: watch show I love how you break it down!!! Gonna rewatch this video soon.
I watch everything on Netflix dubbed in Japanese to practice my language skills. I guess I understand about 50%. I do it with subtitles, which I know for many people doesn't work because they switch off their brain and concentrate on the subtitles, but I listen actively the whole time and make connections between the audio and the translation. This makes it more demanding, and that's why I usually don't watch more than 1 episode per day. When I feel I understand enough to be able to make out most of the unknown words from the context, I will switch off the subtitles. I think that'll be at about 80% comprehension.
Hey, how long would this one episode be?
@@LolLol-ch7sl The standard for Netflix. About 45 min.
How has it been working for you?
If you are on your computer I recommend the language reactor browser extension. It gives both the target language subtitles as well as the translation in your native language but the translation is blurred until you hover over it. It also lets you click target language words to get a definition
I have been reading and re-reading simple stories in French, that have accompanying CD discs. I read them over and over again and then listen to them whilst following the text. When I put the book away and attempt to listen to the CD on its own, I have to concentrate very hard, but I am picking up more and more. One of these books is “Poursuite dans Paris”, Nicolas Gerrier....Lire et s’entrainer....CIDEB. Highly recommend this series. Lots of titles and good reads.
@8:20
The other thing about subtitles - is they often don't match what is being said. Closed Captions are supposed to be word for word.
Sometimes when they are creating alternate dialog for the show the subtitles don't match. The subs let them get in more context while the dialog has to fall in the same window as the character is talking so often times this is where they use different words from the subtitles,
I can confirm what you said about the subtitles from my own experience. If there is a German speaker with English subtitles in the news I (as a German nativ) tend to read those instate of just listening to theme wich is really strange, especially because I'm much more comfortable in German.
target language subs on are good as audio supported reading, which helps a lot when learning a language with crazy writing, like English or Chinese. known language subs can be good the same way parallel bilingual texts are good, but you really need to be in control of your thinking process when doing that.
thansk for the video, I was looking for an answer to the exact question of how much comprehensible the input should be
I subbed after watching this video because it was helpful advice that I could relate to with my own (limited) experience
finally the aswers i've been looking for. Thank you so much
I've always wondered whether it's worth it to watch something I don't understand much of. Something I find helpful is when to watch content that is meant to be watched by people who are at a certain level in a language.
I also think reading books is better than watching video or series, because you can reread the sentence and try to guess the meaning of a word from the context which makes it even better for you to remember that word.
The only thing about reading books is that GOOD books are not very repetitive. So they might talk about someone considering quitting their job, but for "quit", they will use like 9 different words so that we don't see any repetition in the paragraph, because it makes for nicer reading.
I love reading but even in Swedish, I struggle (and I can understand series almost 100% in Swedish).
@@daysandwords ah that's really interesting to hear I get that too. I understand maybe 70-80% of words in a TV show for adults but like 50% in children short stories
I always thought it was best to do comprehensive input with books, movies, and tv shows that you already know and have memorized.
There are multiple books and movies that I have memorized almost line by line.
I started reading and watching these same things in my target language on repeat. So I know the content in that language as well
So I saw one of your videos about Duolingo and its flaws. It talked about how the streak was keeping you in the "GAME" and I was wondering if you would talk a bit about the good aspects Duolingo. I as language learner myself have found that duolingo is good for supporting your more classical education. I took german as my second foreign language to learn in school and Duolingo really helped me kick off a good start so I could go on to read small books and have a more fun time with the language. Though I agree with you about Duolingo's limitations regarding a higher level of speaking I still believe that it can be really helpful especially for total beginners. Perhaps you would explore that in one of you videos? (English is not my native language so please excuse me for potentia errors) thank you and keep up your good content!!
Actually your English was excellent in this comment. There are basically no mistakes (at least, none that a native speaker might not just make themselves).
Yes I should do this, good point.
All systems, methods, approaches, apps etc. have good and bad aspects. Nothing is useless and nothing is the perfect system. What concerns me about Duolingo is its popularity. People think there are out there becoming fluent in languages, and they are not.
But yes I should do a video on this.
@@daysandwords Thank you so much for answering. It's actually pretty funny that you have learned swedish i'm from denmark so i can kind of understand the language. And yes i agree duolingo is more like a support to your education. I personally like extending my vocabulary with books but you probably know many more tools to help you learn more of a language. The thought of duolingo being the way to learn languages does also concern me but that's more because you are easily unmotivated if you can't use the language (as you also have talked about in one of your swedish videos) you will have a tough time learning the language
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Lots of good info, thanks!
So many well formulated pointers!
Thank you!
ew pointers
Thanks. I struggle finding comprehensible material in Dangme. So I guess I better continue Anki drills and translating stuff with dictionary until I am advanced enough to try the comprehensible input.
been wondering this for a while
Hope this answer helped.
My experience is a bit different than what most people seem to have. It seems most people think having subtitles on almost entirely prevents your brain from absorbing your TL. But I learned Japanese by watching anime with Chinese subtitles on almost all the time. I didn't know anything about language learning mythologies back then and just watched tons of anime because I enjoyed it. I started in 9th grade and by the time I graduated high school, I could already understand 99% of the content I watched.
Other than looking things up occasionally, the only studying I did was skim through some basic grammar and phonetics on a website. Never studied vocab at all. Granted my native language is Chinese, so I did have a really easy time picking up words that stem from Chinese simply by listening.
Obviously, this is not the most efficient way to learn. But from my experience, it seems as though if you put in enough time and actually make an effort to understand the content, you will eventually get it.
I think this is a tough one. You have to spend a lot of time not understanding a language in order to get good at understanding it. That's a tough pill to swallow. It's tiny incremental progress that is hard to notice consciously. It take months and even years of daily extensive contact to get the return investment of those first few hundred hours. You're saying deliberate study is a better use of time than sitting through thousands of hours of the real language. I'd argue the opposite. Deliberate study is a bit a of an illusion when applied in realtime. It might help you get to 10% but only putting in all the hours of contact with the language will get you anywhere above 80%. The less you focus on specific words and more on total exposure the better. In other words, reading 100 books in French or Swedish in the coming few years and watching hundreds and hundreds of hours of TV vs focusing on completely understanding one specific episode or chapter of a book. My experience, my two cents. Thanks for the upload.
This is long (my reply would be too), I can't reply now, but basically I think you've misunderstood.
I completely agree with all of this. You’ve explained it how it is, and I appreciate that. Having audio input during the start of a language journey can be useful, but maybe not necessary. Having recently started German, I have no idea what the people are saying (that’s a given, I only have limited vocabulary) however audio input has been important for me in Spanish. In Spanish, my comprehension is ok, when I have subtitles on when watching a series, I would look at the subtitles (like you explained previously with French) because it is easier, but depending on what I’m watching, if I have Spanish subtitles, maybe after a few minutes I get disinterested with what I’m watching. Whilst improving my accent, I might listen to a native talk normally, but my objective isn’t to understand, it is to listen to the pronunciation and sounds. Overall I think you explained the truth behind the input of the target language and what someone would need
Thanks for the comment!
Think about recording yourself speaking in Spanish on a daily basis. It can help a lot.
I often just go for walks and listen to Sveriges Radio P1 documentaries and news. I don't understand much at all of what I hear, but over time it has helped me to pick up words and phrases which I then look up and add to my Anki deck. It might not be that beneficial, generally speaking, but it makes walking less boring and helps me to be able to pick out words more easily from other material.
I recorded a video TODAY about the benefits of walking with TL audio.
@@daysandwords Wow, great timing! I also play Swedish news on TH-cam in the background as part of my morning routine. I just grab some coffee, login to work, and start Nyhetsmorgon in the background. As with Sveriges Radio, I don't really understand much yet, but it feels like it helps my brain adjust to the sounds of Swedish. Not sure if it's actually helping or not, but I'm pretending that I'm in Sweden lol
I’ve watched the basement scene of inglorious bastards many many times. And although I can’t speak german I can speak that part. Same with man on fire. I can still play in my head the portions of Denzel Washington speaking Spanish.
What i personally think would be a good way to go about this (even tho im certainly no expert and only know english, my ‘native’ language and meh french) is to first go with books with at least understanding 60%, and only shift to shows and stuff later when you reach 80%+ because you cant look up words during them and it would be inefficient (learning from context) otherwise. However with french since comprehending their speech is so hard you should try expose yourself to it little by little. Id like to hear anyones thoughts on this, and if they beg to differ then why :)
When you referred to "Subtitles." I understood you were referencing English subtitles, what about Subtitles in your target language?
the best way to improve is with captions in your target language.
@@ichbinhier355 I hate missing words so i always have it on when learning Japanese
Of course with japanese dub and sub
@@ichbinhier355 While for learning vocab and grammar, it is useful to have target language subititles. Target language subtitles are like training wheels, useful in the beggining but you have to stop using them in order to actually get good at listening. You will fall or in other words not understand things many times, but eventually you will be able to parse the spoken language.
Ich danke dir so sehr mein freund,i'm learning german and farsi and this will surely help me. You deserve more subscribers
Thanks for the kind comment.
For German it might help to check out the video I did on Genders in European languages!
😀
@@daysandwords Thx you man😉
Viel Erfolg!
Du kannst mich alles fragen falls du etwas nicht weißt.
@@Clarabella-cl6gb Vielen dank,aber sicher,wenn ich etwas nicht weiß,werde ich dir sagen 😁😉
I'm currently learning german, but I'm a native farsi and danish speaker. We could help each other out! I'm also fluent in english, so we could communicate via english \^-^/
“Ain’t nobody got time for that!” 🤣🤣🤣
proper utube channel my fave
What about input that's translations of stories you know? I'm relearning Spanish and I've been listening to the audio book of the 1st Harry Potter book, and I've ordered a translation of "Pride and Prejudice" to read because so know the stories well in English and enjoy them. Is that beneficial in your opinion? Loving your videos
Harry Potter books have much simpler vocabulary than "Pride and Predjudice". I tried both after one year of learning Chinese and I understand Mandarin Harry Potter quite well but Pride and Predjudice is full of old fashioned language and moral concepts already in English and it can be frustrating to go through it in a foreign language when you are not really advanced. It is better to get translation of some modern novel or young adult literature than classics like Pride and Prejudice.
It depends what you like. I had been reading "The Three Musqueteers" in French and you would imagine it to be CRAZY hard but it's actually not.
To answer your question, I like translated material but I think you need to mix in some native stuff because natives don't just write differently, they think differently (even in closely related languages).
i used to never know how to read "rendezvous" so i would read it as it's spelled. i still do that to remember how it's spelled lol.
I FEEEL I always revert subtitles
If you watch a movie in your target language and you have the option to put on subtitles for that same language, should you have it on or off?
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0158409
Is translating an article in our target language, to a language we are familiar with of any use or should this be combined with something else?
I think it could be of some use, but unnecessary (just like the Mcdonalds reference in the video). If it is too hard, focus on something easier where you only miss a few words that you can either guess or quickly look up. Translating bit by bit will be very tiring and stressful and slow and will only slow down your ability to "think in that language". You need a lot of quantity to be able to absorb the language and translating a short article won't cut it. If you understand what it means then just pass. Read for comprehension and your mind will slowly do the rest.
@@KrDavidLee I would say I am at that stage that I can understand an average newspaper article, that doesn't have any very spesific vocabulary, but I have about 2-3 unknown words or words that I don't quite get and I have to look up per sentence pretty much. Translating into my target language from English or my native language, Greek, is not that frustrating at the point. I think I'll stick with reading a lot as you said and have translation as a more intense exercise maybe, thank you!
This channel is keeping it real 👏
The thing i really struggle with is watching TL content without subs, I know its important so i can practice my listening skills but i definitely comprehend a lot less than when i have subs on. But when i have subs on then im not listening to the words mostly just reading it.
So should or shouldn't I do it ?
I learned everything with subtitles. And I mean _every_ thing. But subs in the original language. Everything else: 100% waste of time. Foreign radio: just frustrating until you can understand at least 30% of a sentence. People always think of this as the whole thing they listen to and then they are confused. "Do I understand half of it or more? WTF IDK...?!" Ask the same person: Do you understand half the sentence? Most will say no. It's just how you take the average. I like mine weighted by sentence and not approximated over all. I learn Swedish with Babbel right now but soon discovered that I need more input. I am trying something I call the "2000 words method". What I do is go about my day and just recognize the words I use most and translate them (only full sentences). But it's only possible because Swedish and German are super similar. In 79% of cases when I make up a Swedish word from German, it's correct.
I just watch and listen to Harry Potter. Problem solved. I can see the scene playing front of me. Progress is slow but I'm happy with it. I'm learning Japanese with this.
For Spanish I'm thinking about using La casa de papel. I have seen the dubbed version.
The first season maybe. I could never stomach the garbage that comes in parts 2, 3 and 4 multiple times!
Do you mean that we need to study reading first than listening for comprehensive learning?
Do you mean comprehensible without the pictures and subtitles or comprehensible with pictures and subtitles?
The sad part about comprehensible input,graded readers...there are no graded readers resources in soo many languages that are not "popular".
Someone like Matt vs Japan would probably say don't worry about it. It's a hard slog but if you have to, just go to native material (including kids material).
What are the languages you are learning for which you can't easily find material? I'm building a platform for comprehensible input ( spoken.app/v/unisex ), if there's some content you'd like to see added to the platform let me know.
@@benwoodward5273 do you have russian
What do you think about watching a show with the subtitles in the same language?
It can help but I prefer just straight nothing.
@@daysandwords yeah I feel like sometimes when I'm watching french shows with french subtitles they become somewhat of a crutch.
So, I studied two years of french in high school and 1.5 years in college. I could never really speak it, but I learned to read it pretty well, so now I'm coming back and wanting to learn to speak and listen. I'm finding that if the subtitles match the speaking then I can focus on the pronunciation of the speakers, because usually I can read it, but I don't really know how it sounds in everyday speech. This way, I can make the connection, of how that word actually sounds. My next step will be to watch those shoes and movies without substitles. On the other hand if the subtitles don't match the speaker, they're using synonymns, or other phrases, then I tend to rely on the subtitles instead of listening and trying to understand the speaker. So I guess we need to ask ourselves what purpose are the subtitles serving and are they helping us to achieve our goals?
What do you think of the RapMonster (BTS member) of learning languages?
Did you use English, or French subtitles?
Generally neither, though lately I have seen the value in TL subtitles.
Its a struggle to make the shift. I know hundreds of words in French. I can read good enough to understand whats going on. Yet I can understand spoken French. Its so fast and so much slang.
I've got a video coming out about this very thing (understanding native content).
Everything you say is valuable however, simply exposing yourself to the sound of the langauge even if you don't understand it is of value because you are acclimatizing yourself to ... the sound of the language and getting accustomed to hearing new sound combinations which over time lead to the formation of mental representation and then understanding and acquisition.
You should only ever read if you know what the words sound like. My key second language is spanish. I can read and 90% know what the words on the page should sound like even if I don't know what they mean. That can still be useful. The reverse is not true for a native spanish speaker learning english. English pronunciation hardly every makes sense.
It's frustrating because sometimes I understand 99% of what's said and others I understand 2%
It can vary greaty. 99 and 2 seems a bit excessive but for myself, I go between 100 and about 75.
@@daysandwords Haha I was just exaggerating. My comprehension never really goes below 50%. Unless I'm trying to read some complicated text or something like that
10:31 Nicos weg (Nico is gone)
One issue that almost all beginner material is so boring. Understandable of course, but frustrating, particularly if everything is aimed at children....part of the journey i guess.
Hey...what's your name? and can I support you on Patreon?
Wow, that's very nice.
Not just yet but I will have it up soon, and my name's Lamont. :-)
I don't totally agree with that because of this video from Math vs. Japan th-cam.com/video/_LIz-Wbt4us/w-d-xo.html even if you don't understand what you're listening to. What he says is that it allows you to practice the recognition of the sounds of the language, so to actually recognize the words and the difference between theory and practice. So I think comprehensible input is important to get the meaning through and assimilate the language.
But it's MORE effective if you understand some.
Matt has a waaaaaay higher tolerance for discomfort and non-understanding than the majority of people. Compared to the me, his attention and focus are very high. Compared to a NORMAL person, he is a freakin' Buddhist monk.
th-cam.com/video/MYUcbsGkMn8/w-d-xo.html
@@daysandwords Sure it's always better because it's also less boring but as you said it depends on each individual person. Personally I think I'm ok with not understanding as long as I enjoy what I am watching/Listening to. I also like to do that under the form of semi-passive listening while I am doing something else but only to get used to the rythm of the language and sometimes even without paying too much attention I can recognize words that I've previously seen while active studying. There was a reddit thread regarding the low, but benefits of passive listening. Also for the comprehensible part, I guess you're familiar with Stephen Krashen's approach to second language aquisition, where it would be ideal to always have content at the right level (i+1), it's really hard to find compelling and understandable content but there is one guy on TH-cam who does exactly that for english and it's a great idea, here's his channel th-cam.com/channels/SW8FB6e8tUGEaDsoe7SlWw.html if this existed for every language that could be a huge game changer. Oh and by the way, greetings from France ! I was really impressed by your level when I saw your video where you spoke French & Swedish.
@@daysandwords And thanks for replying to my comment ! 🙂
Don't want to barge in but... ;-)
Well you could leave a longer comment and then it's less like barging in... merci !
MacDonalds is life.
Why my comment is deleted?
I don't know. I haven't seen a comment from you recently, as far as I can remember?
@@daysandwords
I already replied a few minutes ago but it disappeared
It was about a program that can be useful for a lot people it create a list most frequency wordfamily(1000-20000).
@@Izaltinodsouza OK, well thanks for posting it - I'm not sure where it went, but if it contained a link then YT may have autofiltered it as spam. Some stuff doesn't even go into the "poential spam" category, rather it just disappears entirely. I have no control over this.
@@daysandwords
Than you for reply.
Text Vocabulary Size is on my git hub.
first
under 10 views gang
Ha, gotta be a bit quicker these days than you did 6 months ago. Thanks for the comment!