What is a ''restoration'' and why does your EPS board suck?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ค. 2024
- In todays adventures, we discuss what defines a surfboard restoration vs repair and we look into the future of EPS and where it will lead surfboard manufacturing in the years to come. All this while ''restoring'' a 1965 LAND surfboard.
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I should state that there is always an exception to the rule and this video is not to say that there are not very well built, strong and well glassed boards using EPS foam. No offence is intended towards any shaper who chooses to work with EPS! These are my personal opinions only and there are many angles to the discussion to be considered. 🤙
The guys by my house said EPS is terrible for making big boards. I make Boogie Boards out of broken softops, most of them seem to be some type of EPS and sometimes it’s good 👍 sometimes not so much 😂
@@Chop757 boogie board are probably a better option for EPS because of their size. Less board, less area to fill with water and easier to drain. Not having feet stomping on them constantly probably less odds of a ding in the first place! Reusing old soft tops is a big win too. don't get me started on bloody soft tops, it'll be an hour long rant 😂
Yeah fair comment. There’s some good NZ shapers who work with both materials and are happy to give balanced advice. Sweet video.
I am in the camp that likes to see the scars and wear over the years, but protected in a watertight shell 👍 great video, interesting thoughts 😎
Ditto, there’s room for all styles but we all have our preferences! Appreciate it! 🤙
You'd love my Takayama Model T
I completely agree with your sentiments about restoring old boards. You want to see the history that the board has been through, it is part of what makes it old and interesting.
I think so! 🤙
In 1975, I was 10 yrs old, my best friend and I, he's still one of my best friends and he still surfs almost everyday and lives two blocks from Manhattan Beach Pier in SoCal. He and I bought our first surfboard from a neighbor's garage sale,(they happened to be the owner of Dive n Surf or more well known as Body Glove.
We were 10 yrs old, I think it cost us $5.00 for a 1965 (ten yr old) 13 foot double stringer Donald Takeyama shaped surfboard. It took both of us to carry it. We got an old beavertail wetsuit jacket for another $5.00 we learned to surf on that board and it remained as the borrow board for the next 20 years sitting in the backyard of my friend's rented apartment where he lived 100 feet from the sand at a place called El Porto next to Manhattan Beach. That board stood the test of time and eventually got so dinged up and pressure dings and dark spots from water seapage that someone spray painted it silver and it was renamed the Silver Surfer. That board is still around in terrible shape. It is now 59 years old. I would love to strip off that silver paint and see if it could be restored. Hawaiian made. Classic iconic shaper from the 1960s shipped to the Mainland and ended up in the hands of the owners of Dive n Surf and sold ten years later to a couple of 10 yr old beach rats from Los Angeles and is still in the hands of the same kids who 49 years ago pooled together our lunch money to buy it and learn to surf on it. Many other people learned on it, surfed in drunken stuper on it, paddled it out with a group in memory of friends no longer with us, many many stories that board was part of.
It's items like that and the board in this video that need to be brought back to life. Even if it is just a conversation piece and just a piece of art, it should be kept alive.
Unreal story, thanks for sharing!
Your friend might have done it a favour by painting it. I've worked on quite a few boad's of similar age that were painted head to toe and the paint prevented a lot of yellowing and degrading of the foam and glass from UV!
Hope that board continues to live on for decades to come!
Sorry I have no idea what is the best way to restore an old board but I just love to see a true craftsman at work, thanks for another great video.
Thanks for watching, glad you enjoyed it!
What a wonderful thought provoking philosophical video. I found the craftmanship on display, combined with the timbre and meter of your voice almost hypnotic.
Glad you enjoyed! Appreciate the feedback very much!
Sensational content sir ! I have been making surfboards for 35 years . Worked in the industry shaping for most of that time . Ironically my first board was epoxy / styrofoam back in 1989 . We used R180 from Nuplex . Most of those boards we're "dead" within 18 months . PU will outlast any styrofoam blank - FACT . My blank supplier can supply me a "pink" grade PU blank , glass that in 4oz s-glass with quality lamination , follow that up with a warm gloss coat , sand that and there you have a HPSB weighing in at around 5.25 llb or 2400 gms . That board will outlast any epoxy/styrofoam board .
The problem with styrofoam is the 'open-cell' nature of the foam . If you have any opening in the glassjob , it soaks water up like a sponge .
Get a hairline crack around a finbox and the board sits in your room , then the car . The air within expands , then you plunge into the ocean which is probably 6+ degrees colder . The air inside your board is now contracting , sucking in seawater . Bingo , your board is slowly dying .
PU will only take in so much water because of the closed cell nature of its foam .
Sorry for the rant , but I had to communicate this . Stay away from styrofoam and epoxy dust .
Thank you , and again ....great work .
This is a great comment, mostly because it's in line with my thoughts and who doesn't LOVE themselves an echo chamber?!
What you've said about air expansion and contraction within EPS is bang on the money!
Thanks for this comment!
I just found your channel and watched a load of them videos. I am finding them super helpful and full of info. Thank you very much.
Welcome and so glad to hear! Appreciate the feedback!
Fantastic! Was enjoying watching this but the icing on the cake was that I have a 1964 Roger Land that was restored by a friend of mine 7 years ago. You can still see all of the ‘left outside in the weather’ damage, but it is at least safe, dry and watertight. I had bought it from the original owner in the late ‘70s. In NZ btw.
Hey hey! Unreal! Very difficult to find information on Roger I found. I do know that Raglan museum has a few on display. I feel like someone more knowledgeable than myself needs to put some history on him up there before it's lost forever!
A masterful and respectful resurrection of a beautiful vintage long board! I'm 80, and started surfing in Southern California in 1959, on a glassed balsa board on loan from a friend. My first new, custom ordered board was a 1963 Joe Quigg, 9'-2", single redwood stringer, reverse laminated fin. Followed by many others from various local shapers. Needless to say, I love long boards, and vintage long boards in particular. I'm fully in agreement with your approach! Aloha from O'ahu!!
Aloha and mahalo! Love hearing about those old boards, where they came from, who owned them and where they ended up. There’s some beauties over there on the islands!
Great vid. Sustainability; I had an old Atlas Woods, that was stored in a pool shed. Small landslide destroyed the shed, and a concrete block retaining wall landed on it . Wrecked and squashed an adjacent lawnmower. After I dug it all out, the board had some deep scratches and chips from the blocks, but all only surface deep, hardly even penetrated the really thick glass and resin. Easily fixed, and as good as it ever was, but with a few more visible scars.
Unreal! These old boards are probably more akin to boat construction than modern day surfboard construction, bullet proof!
Beautiful work, and narration. Thank you for sharing.
Thank YOU for watching!
I watched, listened, and enjoyed it ALL. I whole heartedly agree with your views. Keep up the excellent work! ✌️❤️🤙
Very appreciated and glad you enjoyed!
Account for the usable lifespan of a board when calculating its sustainability! That's a revelation. Thanks for saying it. Many of us think that way with shoes, tools, camping gear... but somehow not surfboards. I did not, until now. Cheers.
It’s a funny one to think about, considering what surfboards are for it’s surprising how fragile they really are. Easily overlooked on sporting equipment I reckon, we all just assume that for the price and what it’s used for, it should be as strong as a skateboard or a baseball bat!
Great vid.
Brilliant break down and explanation of technique and method.
Very much enjoyed your perspective.....🤙🏼🇦🇺🍻
Cheers man, appreciate the feedback!!
Just another take on EPOXY resin . A skin specialist here in Sydney Aus was telling me he has multiple workers compensation cases going due to workers from building industry (marble/granite benchtops ) silicosis disease due to epoxy dust . Epoxy resin is most dangerous to human health in its DUST form .
I also know a few boatbuilders who cannot work near Epoxy dust at all due to skin irritation (blisters the size of your hand ) .
Yeah , there is really only one material that is truly enviromentally friendly to make a surfboard out of . A naturally fallen tree .
Love your craftsmanship .
I know a handful of people who have developed allergies to epoxy over the years. A couple of them had worked with the stuff for years before the allergy showed it's face. Some of their re actions are so bad that they wouldn't even be able to set foot in a place like my workshop because theres enough particles in the air to trigger their reactions.
I enjoyed watching you work and your commentary. RGE from Cape Canaveral, FL.
Appreciate it very much!!
Lovely to see a restoration that respects the history of the board. Wish I’d kept some of my old boards. I still have a 9ft custom Steve Morris which is about 20 years old. My boys ride it on small days.
Always at least one we wish we'd kept! Hang onto that SM!
Your work is spectacular and your patience and attention to detail is the finest. It was a pleasure to watch and I learned a lot. I see that you have a vac attached to your sander but you should still wear a mask. You're a young guy and all that micro dust that didn't go in the vac will catch up with you eventually. Best to be safe. Keep the videos coming.
Appreciate it very much and stoked that you enjoyed!
It's a fine line with the sanding. 99% of my job involves sanding and I'm working 6 to 10 hours a day. Wearing a respirator for that amount of time every day comes with it's own risks as well. Skin issues, cracked lips, infections, ingrown hards, management of facial hair (which I suck at 😂). I haven't found the perfect balance yet!
When I was kid growing up in New Zealand, Roger Land was a close friend of the family and related to me in some way. At that time he was building fiberglass yachts. Him and my father built a Young 88 yacht which became very popular and I believe around 2-300 of these yachts were built. In my teens I spent my summer holiday on cruising trips around the Hauraki Gulf with Roger, my father and others. We spent summers scuba diving and sailing. Once Roger retired I believe he went back to shaping the occasional board. Great to see one of his old boards being given some new life.
Unreal, thanks for sharing! Interesting to hear he was involved in boat building. It seems an obvious step up from surfboard manufacturing, one that Graham Allen still does to this day!
Love this video mate… incredible craftsmanship and funny… leg rope will pull your hip out of socket…lol
Appreciate it mate!
Hey mate , I'm a fellow surfboard maker and repairer down south. Been fixing boards for close to 40 years! You do a very good job. Just hope your customers appreciate your attention to detail.. As you mentioned I too charge an additional fee for any repair involving epoxy. It's expensive, temperamental and takes way to long to cure..
The rub on sanding guide is brilliant.. Must try it. Thank you
Gday Stephen, great to hear from you and appreciate the kind words! I’m pretty close to re adjusting my prices too, epoxy is always a bit more but I need to look into that as it hasn’t changed in years.
The one downside of guide coat and resin is if there’s any pin holes, no matter how minute, once that guide coats in there, there’s no getting it out!
Excellent work on that board, I am sharing with my friend from Sydney who knows most of the guys you mentioned.
Many thanks! Unreal, I’m lucky enough to live close to uncles Hall and Parkes so I see them around every now and then. All of them, Mctavish, Martin, Hall and Parkes… very impressive people to me.
nice restoration job. awesome video. thumbs up for the effort. sanding glassing all lekker good.
Shot brother, appreciate it!
Totally enjoyed
Stoked to hear it! 🤙
Totally agree with everything you said, and I image the black stuff you are using is a guide coat. Rub on the black and when you can see no more of it from sanding you know the surface is flat.
Bang on with the guide coat! Shows scratches from the previous grits that need to be removed before moving on to the next grit. Certainly good for showing highs and lows when block sanding too!
Love your video, thank you so much!
Appreciate it very much, than YOU!
Not sure how this made my feed, but am absolutely thankful. A bit dated response but I’ll play: What is that black powder? Ÿou’re a soulful craftsman mate.
Stoked it came your way and that you found it worth the watch! Appreciate it very much!
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat which allows me to see any scratches left from my previous sanding that need to be removed before I go onto the next grit of sand paper.
Great watch, nice discussion points.
Appreciate it, glad you enjoyed!
You’re a craftsman and I would consider this a top tier restoration. I agree about EPS epoxy and got off the bandwagon a couple of years ago. “What is that black stuff you rubbed on the surfboard and how does it taste?”
Appreciate it! Always a little frustrating to be held to a budget on boards like this one, theres a couple more stages I would of liked to do around the fin area but I get it, and the customers seemed more than happy with the result which is the main thing!
Cool video! I am new to surfing and has attempted 1 ding repair so far with one more on the way - which is EPS and epoxy! Got the board-to-be-repaired for free thinking it was a great deal, we’ll see how it goes haha. Having watched most if not all of your videos though, should go quite well.
Free is a good price! As painful as EPS and epoxy can be, it’s still possible, just gotta prepare for the worst and hope that the worst never comes! Let me know if you have any troubles!
Appreciate you, cheers for watching!
Great vid thanks. Great swirls of thoughts in your brain!
Appreciate it!
Thanks for this demo
My pleasure!
Great video! Love the restoration. Also I agree with your thoughts on EPS. I’ve had 3 hand shaped EPS boards and each one lasted a year. I’m done. I chose eps because of the lightness and pop, but I’m done buying a new board every year.
Frustrating to get hooked on the feel of EPS and how it rides only to realise the impacts on your wallet when replacing them so often! Hopefully we see some some cool new core materials coming out soon!
great video!
I have a a very similar Land, rad board. And totally agree regarding EPS. Crazy to put that stuff anywhere near water.
Unreal! Does it still have its original fin? Is it a LAND or a Roger Land?
I’m told there’s a few hanging in the raglan museum
@@smallkinedings yeah believe it’s the original hatchet fin.
Same era as that one with the LAND logo
I’m a new subscriber and I really enjoyed your video. I look forward to catching up on past episodes. I’m one that believe the imperfections tell a story and the characteristics are unique to the life the board has lived. When dealing with vintage boards many of these shapers didn’t have the ability or the want to mass produce a (production line) each board supported a time, an idea, and a need to improve upon the vibe felt when in the water. So what was the black product? And how does is taste 👅 lol
Thanks for the great content 🤙
Welcome Wayne and appreciate the feedback! Surfing was certainly a very different thing back in those days and if I am to believe the uncles, a much better time in surfing! Certainly a time for both surfers and shapers worth preserving!
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat that shows up all the scratches from my previous grit that need removing before I go onto the next grit. It tastes like the burnt bits at the bottom of a popcorn bag!
Made it, enjoyed it, happy to hear your opinions, cheers
Very much appreciated 🤙
Black stuff is a guide coat, shows up imperfections, panel beaters been using it forever. cool resto love your work ✌
Ahhh, but I bet you can't tell me what it tastes like?!
That board looks great❤. It would be a fun one at SanO
While I was working on it I was thinking it would be a gem on a small Ala Moana or Waikiki day!
Great repair 😊
Much appreciated 🤙
I totally enjoyed your video. My first source board I come from back east was made in Greenlawn Long Island. It was 1967. It was made by shaped by Jim Phillips and the name of the surfboard company was Micris I later went on ride a midget Farley stringless, which I wrote a lot in Baja Mexico I laid it went onto ride nothing but. Donald Tackamina Which I had for a very long time boards made different fact then they lasted a very long time. I went on ride a lot of Dick Brewers short boards some his first try Ins, which I enjoyed riding.
That’s quite the quiver of boards! Hope you held onto a couple of them!
Cheers for the feedback!
Very nice words
Cheers Luke! 🤙
Thanks for this video! I really enjoyed your take on “restoration” versus repair. So, what was that black stuff you applied to the back of the board and what does it taste like?
My pleasure, thanks for watching!! The black stuff is a powdered guide coat, it tastes a little like poly resin but mixed with a hint of sweetness , like a burnt gob stopper
Aha, you have hit the "The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox" principle. Is an object ever the "same" after repairs.
Good true story.
6 years a go, the Queensland Government brought out a Tax on new boat builds. They made an exemption, for "Restorations"
Some smart Dude asked the Government Rep "If I use just one nail from the original boat, is it a Restoration ?"
The Government Rep said "Yes"
So, that solved the Tax problem for home builders.
O wow! That’s funny to hear!! I’ll look into that, seems a very difficult thing to define “restoration” as a law. Smart fulla!
Very enjoyable 👍
Stoked, many thanks!
A lot of work on that one, Bro, but in the end, well worth it.
Was a long journey this one! Always worth it in the end though!
Got an old Greg Knoll stemwinder one time from a guy who found it under a trailer it had hatchet marks in it and broken off Arrows in it and it was fully delaminated and soaking wet. I peeled it, stashed it up in the top of my garage outback in four pieces and the stringer totally separated. I glued it all back together re-laminated it brought it back to life surfed it for a while, painted it turn into a psychedelic cow kinda like a Holstein with mad cow disease
Fixed all the dings on it recently painted it like a dream sickle pop and stenciled on a blueberry Holstein cow kind of tasty I like it
Sounds like the epic project and a good save!
What is that black stuff and how does it taste?
What a great video!! I definitely agree with your opinion on EPS boards. In fact, I'm fully on the same page with all the points you make in the video.
I guess the marketing machine behind epoxy wave riding products is the real enemy.
Regards from KARMA SURFBOARDS & DING REPAIRS .CORNWALL UK. Chaa hoooo!!! 😊🤙
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat and it tastes like if you were to lick the silicone around the door jam of a cheap hotels shower!
Appreciate your comment, always great to add another board builder/repairer to the minds global map! It’s going to be an interesting future for surfboard construction, ding repairs are about to become far more specialised I think! Verdure surf IMO is giving us a glimpse of what boards will look like in the near future and what repairs will entail!
@@smallkinedings hahaha I wont be finding out for myself, although I have done the finger licking thing to smooth out my far from perfect silicone application and I was reminded of vinegar.
Have the best day!😊🤙
Yes, I made it to the end of the video and I loved it!
As you said, epoxy is a great material. Three layers of epoxy and your board will last forever. Custom made Windsurf boards in the 80's were only epoxy resin over eps or sometimes Clark foam. I remember the guy who tought me, hitting one of his boards with a fin box, just to show me how strong they were! That's is why I am new to PE. I was born with epoxy :) But I still fight epoxy, especially during hot coat and on. The SOB is so sensitive to dust, humidity, temperature...
Champion! I’ve worked on some of those old windsurfers and they were built very well! I think the big let down for many epoxy boards (generally not from small operations) is because they’re chasing light weight, they under glass. A lot of 4oz where there should be 6oz! Once that lets water into the EPS then it’s game over, just a matter of how long. PE is the solution I reckon, I think we’ll start seeing a lot more of them in the coming years
I agree with your philosophy on restoration, and enjoyed watching the work in this video. I tend to keep my boards for a long time, and that means making repairs when they are damaged. I always try for a good cosmetic result when fixing dings and other damage, but I don’t fret too much if the color isn’t just right, or if you can see where I’ve added some replacement foam. These things are part of the lifecycle of the board, and are part if its history. I also much prefer polyester resin and polyurethane blanks, both for durability but also workability and speed. There is no fast cure epoxy, and when one of my epoxy/EPS custom SUPs needs work, it can take days because of the long cure time of the epoxy. All of those boards are sanded finish, due to the difficulty in polishing epoxy. Something about the gloss of a nice poly board is missing…
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!
Yea, if epoxy has an up side, it's nice to glass boards with because of the working time it provides. Shame about the curing time though... and the price! 😂
What is that black stuff you used on the board? Very interesting. You cover all what i want to do to one of my boards to bring it back. I agree 100% with not pulling all the shell off. Nice work.
O nice, what kinda board?
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat! So many people asking about it, should've thought to explain it in the video 😆 It tastes like the burnt bits on the bottom of an over tray after you cook potatoes!
I made New boards and did many restorations for years and agree with your sentiments .I wouldn't work with Poxy (many people become hyper sensitive to it ) and to add the uk market was flooded at one point with cheep boards imported from China they had virtually no glass on them all sprayed glossed and polished so they looked good .Leash savers pulled into them , fin systems fitted wrong ,fell out , and big nose rockers .I had to charge a extra fee to start with repairing all of those boards all would end up in land fill or best case glass striped off blank and a smaller board made from the blank .Sadly most Poxy boards will end up in land fill as well at lest Polyester well shaped and glassed boards will live on for years .
Luckily even the overseas factories seem to have upped their quality in the past few years or more. Some of them are actually producing really good quality now and their numbers of boards a week are also very impressive.
I know two guys that worked (one managed) in over seas factories and they’ve both said, “ if you wanna learn how to glass proficiently, work a year at one of those factories”.
I certainly have had a fair share of those boards you’re speaking of though, I always feel bad for the customer being sold something like that! There was one model in particular “mahi mahi”. I’ve probably had over 50 of them in over the years, all with the same fin plug and under glassing issues. Glad to say they’re discontinued now!
Great to have your point of view on EPS/Epoxy boards !
I think that the main reason why we see so many epoxy boards nowadays, is only because to a certain point they're easier and cheaper to make in overseas factories.... even if epoxy resin is expensive, they can make boards with cheap EPS foam blanks, cheap fiberglass and very little skills, and the board will still be light, with less apparent dings than PU, and last 4 or 5 years, which is enough for a lot of people.
On the other hand, a "durable" PU board has to be made with a good blank (not cheap), good fiberglass (not cheap) and most of all a GOOD shaper (definitly not cheap). So it requires more money and more knowledge to have a strong, light surfboard that will last forever.
But sadly people want to buy cheap boards every couple of years...
As you said, I have some old 40+ years old boards which still perform well, none of these factory-made EPS boards will last that much
For sure! It's a tough one too because there are a lot of shapers making really nice and functional EPS boards, even many of the overseas factories now are producing as good of quality as possible with a flawed material. Theres different tiers in quality without a doubt!
The first board I ever made was EPS, Epoxy and it's still bullet proof but I glassed that thing fully in 6oz so she's stroooong!
With the price of Epoxy, it blows my mind that these guys save money in the long run on production but I bet those large factories are buying the stuff in MASSIVE quantities so theres probably some saving there that I have no idea about.
They don't have "little skills". They make what they are requested to.
Most of the production EPS/Epoxy boards are painted, and the reason is that they are not laminated with clear or “water white” epoxy resins. Under the paint is this ugly brown stuff, which I imaging must be cheaper if the manufacturers are willing to take on the extra expense of an external paint job. Many of these boards that I see look absolutely terrible after a season due to the paint getting chipped or scraped off. It’s especially bad on SUPs due to paddle strikes. Fortunately, my local shaper has his glasser use clear epoxy and traditional laminating techniques, even though the material is EPS and Epoxy.
This is a beauty. Where can I get the black stuff, I heard it's delicious. Is glassing fin rope into an eyelet on the tail of the deck for the leg rope not period correct?
Any automotive repair store or candy shop will sell it to you! The customer and I did discuss the option of a roving leash loop but it's not necessarily ''period correct'' and with the weight of the board, we decided the hole in the fin would likely outlast a leash loop.
PU/PE boards are the way to go. My Harbour Banana is 23 years old and is holding up well. Just the occasioanal ding repair and lots of TLC (rinse, dry it off, and into a board bag after every surf).
Thing will last “forever” if you treat it right 🤙
Great work and tutorial. Looks like coffee grounds you were using.
Appreciated! Any coffee grinds here get put in my belly real fast!
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat that shows up scratches made from my previous sanding that need to be removed before moving onto the next grit!
Thanks for sharing this. I do this kind of work and I know what the black stuff is.
Thank YOU for watching!
🤫 don't tell anyone, it's a secret
Really enjoyed your process and your thoughtful commentary. What's the black stuff and how does it taste?
Appreciate it! The black stuff is a powdered guide coat to show me any scratches that need to be sanded out. It tastes like the burnt bits from the bottom of your BBQ, left over from the previous summers grilling session!
Love EPS shoulder and below, PU for anything with juice.
Fair shout! I imagine wind plays a large role too! We normally have a bit of chop in the water around here so PU helps drive through those bumps. Maybe surfing in super glassy conditions would suit an EPS board more!
Nice job, now I have the fiberglass itch just from tearing the glass off the fin:)
That chop strands a bitch once it gets in your sleeves! I've ruined a lot of good hoodies working with that stuff!
First board I ever stripped the glass off of when I was 14 or 15 gave me a severe case of the fiberglass itch. It doesn't bother some people but I'm very sensitive to it. Dusting your arms with baby powder helps a little.
So did use poly or west systems, I'd hazard a guess it was poly. Really enjoyed the video❤
This job was all done with a surfboard specific poly resin. West systems Epoxy is best left for boats
I suppose that old school is gold school compared to most things, made with care by hands and to stand the test of time. Fibreglass boards surf with more feel, like the guy that made it.
Nothing quite like the imperfect perfection of hand crafted anything!
I love this philosophy... Aaand love the sanding guide coat, must be from your autobody repair days
Very rarely use it, was actually going to do a segment of the video on the stuff as someone had asked about knowing when to move onto the next grit. Didn’t work out for this one though, too busy ranting 😆
Very good
Mahalos!
As a big fan of epoxy boards which I’ve owned from the inception of “Tuflite” & Surftech, I can say the original ones still hold up very well to this day. But I don’t leave my boards in direct sunlight & I’m not out there every day either. I’ve always wondered why the combination of PU foam & epoxy resin has never really caught on, considering the obvious strength advantage epoxy has compared to polyester resin. In fact I’m surprised that they haven’t developed even lighter & stronger boards out of carbon fibre when the process has been going on now for decades successfully creating lightweight parts for the automotive & aeronautical industries. Surfers and shapers definitely love to stick to traditional methods.
I agree 100%. I think those tuflites and surftecs will outlast the vast majority of other EPS builds. They've tackled the problem in the right way I think with the angle of ''how do we make sure our foam core NEVER gets wet?''.
I think at this rate, PU/Epoxy (PE) is the future unless we see a new and better material than both EPS and PU which is quite possible. It will be interesting to see what comes next!
I read a comment on a shaping/glassing video a few years ago. It was from an engineer who made composite aeroplane parts. He was blown away with the outdated methods used in the surfing world. I wish I'd screen captured it as it made me giggle but also was very interesting. He was genuinely bewildered as a non surfing expert in composite materials.
What was that black stuff you rubbed on the surfboard at the end and how does it taste?
Seriously i was curious what that was, i was thinking a stain. Love your work and enjoy your videos..
Stay safe😎
Richard
Gday Richard!
It’s a powdered guide coat that sits in the scratches from my sanding. It allows me to see which scratches from the previous grit I’ve missed before moving onto the next one 🤙
What is that black stuff you used and what does it taste like?
Another great vid, and angle. Thanks mate.
So many people asking about that black stuff! Dunno why? 🤔 It's a powdered guide coat and I'm gonna have to do a video on it with all these folks asking about it completely un prompted!
Well said
🙏
If your stripping a board down to foam, re-shaping, and re-glassing, your basically making a new board. Used to do that to 5 dollar garage sale finds to learn how to shape on the cheap
Pretty much! Though, that said there are some incredibly good board restorers who strip glass. Far more talented than I am and their results are wild!
Loved the video and all your opinionated comments I built boards in the 70s and 80s for myself and friends and loved every minute of it just didn’t wanna try to make a living at it. I’m 65 now and by the way, what was the black stuff and how did it taste?
Appreciate it very much! Where did you build boards, do you still have some of your old ones?
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat that shows up scratches from my previous sanding that need to be removed before moving onto the next grit 🤙
@@smallkinedings I built boards mainly in Tampa, Florida and Vero Beach, Florida before I started screen printing. I ended up with a business called Newwave designs that screen printed surfboard laminate labels for most of the board builders on the East Coast and abroad from the 80s up until 2010.
I have one of my boards left on my rack!
Ive ridden epoxy/EPS for years now and had no issues with sucking water, its just so rare to get open dings,
EPS real benefits is its has very good memory so bounces back to shape and doesan break down over time so boards tend to stay lively...
Meanwhile poly blanks cells deteriorate and crush with every flex, the extreme example is that green poly foam used for flower decoration, crush it and it stays crushed..
Haha, it's always funny to me when people say ''it's rare to get open dings'' in relation to epoxy. You're certainly not the first to say that and you wont be the last! Only because I see them every day of the year.
The primary focus with Epoxy/EPS should be glassing it in such a manner that what you say is the absolute priority of the glassing schedule. Something like (and it pains me to say) surftec makes sense because they have built such a bullet proof skin that water getting to the foam really is very rare.
The vast majority of EPS/Epoxy boards I see though are built with nothing but lightness and flex in mind. Fire wire, Haydens, JS, all the big fullas, are certainly guilty of under glassing many/majority of their EPS boards, so much so that sanding for repairs is often an issue because they are so easy to sand through to foam next to the repair area. Whatever boards you're riding, stick with them because theres more crap than good out there on the market but, certainly some good to be found!
Interesting takes! I think what it boils down to are two of the larger concepts of sustainability: reduce & use.
The marketeers like to focus on reduce, dispite that reality (especially that of repair guys) is more towards re-use and life extension.
In regards to vintage argument, I would be very interested in Josh Martin or Jeff Timpone's opinion, as they both dapple with eps /epoxy. I could definitely see both types of builds from those guys being 'vintage' in 40 years. But maybe I'm wrong.
Being a hobby builder myself and having shaped a hand full of boards now, all eps, my conclusion is in line with your opinion. I lean towards the direction of going the PU and epoxy route or thougher poly glassing. Dispite a PU being 200% of the pricing of eps, due to availability & shipping.
Here in the Netherlands I think the majority of boards are epoxy eps. I don't hear too much complaining from the repair guys, because I assume its the norm. Pricing is I roughly 50-100% higher, compared to a pu board repair.
The strong argument for EPS is that it can be commercially recycled. I actually have a recycle collection for EPS next to my work so I can strip and deliver shagged board there which is handy. The downside to that is that your average Joe is never going to go through that process (fair enough) but there’s a big difference between “can be recycled” and “is being recycled”. Also with how easily EPS is damaged by water, quite often it’s beyond recycling.
That being said, Josh Martin or Jeff Timpone probably have the best shots at making an EPS board that will stand the test of time but ultimately I think it will come down to the boards owner and how they treat it. As undoubtably good as their boards are, the reality is that the core of the board still doesn’t react well to water so the onus is on the owner to treat that board well and maintain it properly.
It’s an interesting point you make about the price of PU vs EPS. I’m actually wondering, for the big boys if that price difference is made up for with the price of poly vs epoxy. Here I pay $600ish for 5 litres of epoxy vs $100 dollars for the same 5 litres of poly so I struggle to imagine there is money to be saved in EPS/epoxy builds, especially if you take time into account. I could be and probably am wrong though, these big boys are likely ordering HUGE quantities!
Interesting to hear about the repair prices over there too! Cheers for your comment man, always an interesting conversation!
@@smallkinedings Ah, so true, the recycling arguement! I dislike that argument. Its not that it can't be done. But in order to make it work a company has to take full ownership of the 'end of life cycle' of the product they produce. I worked in product R&D (non surf related) and we thought up such an approach. Its way easier said than done. Because most production companies don't have this(expensive), it's easier for the customer to dispose of product the regular way.
Take wetsuits for example, I have yet to find a company that would take in my old wetsuits.
I think you mentioned ot in the video, lets not pretend the products we use to surf are close to eco friendly, because they are not.
Ofcourse there are a handful of exceptions. I think almond surfboard has their recyclable foamies. Going to end on a negative here.. even then only they know their effectiveness and turn in rate for recycling.
Perhaps its better to end with a future question for perhaps a conversation video, how long should a surfboard last anyways?
Black stuff taste? Haha. Waited for a beautiful board like that! Hahaha awesome video of your ideas and your thinking.
Tastes like the inner sole of a hiking boot, slightly charred while being held close to a campfire to be dried!
And fin boxes! I do repairs for some local kids, and the no of broken, squashed into the board fin boxes!! Easier to replace a broken off , glassed on fin. And yes, I hate it when they are EPS epoxies
Practicality vs longevity is a tough one! Hard to beat a a glass on fin though!
Got a Land in my shed very similar. Webber fin. Slightly worse. Had it since first owner gave it in 1980. Rode it regular until about 2004. my kids rode with me on it as wee kids, my Jack Russell enjoyed it too, mainly at The Pipe. Surfed Red Bus and the Point on it a lot, up to 6 foot. You have to ride those logs carefully, in a certain way, great knee paddlers, cruel when they clout you. Thanks for the date - i alwsys thought 67 but yeah 66. Will be passing it down.
Unreal, seems like there’s still a few around the place! I found it really hard to find any decent, in depth information or Roger Land or Land. The Raglan museum has a a few on display apparently so I’ve gotta go check that out one day.
I am the shaper/glasser/sander for Wallarah Surfboards and I make custom surfboards plus do repairs. Regarding EPS ... I mostly make surfboards out of polyurethane foam and use epoxy resin, although I use polyster resin if a retro style is called for. The issue is that many surfers want their board to be lightweight but super strong so they ask for EPS/epoxy. Old style EPS has very large cell structure with lots of air spaces (remember vents) therefore light but is very hard to shape smooth and paint a clean edge, very soft when shaping and easy to leave a dent with only slight pressure, if the board is dinged is sucks up water like a sponge. Modern EPS from a good manufacturer is a fused cell structure and much better to work with and repair. I take on whatever the repair challenge is and work something out that will get the board back in the water for the customer. I have fixed lots of Tuflites, lifesaver boards, all the major brands of both poly and EPS. Nice job on the restoration.
Gday Adrian! Many thanks for your input! Agreed that not all EPS is born the same, it's good to see blank blowers tweaking formulas and making a blank that at the very least is easier to shape/cnc and finish cleanly! I've no doubt it'll only get better and eventually lead to something really good that doesn't suck water like a sponge which to me, is the greatest flaw of EPS foams.
Tough lites are an interesting one because they've chased the avenue of "if water can't get to the foam, then water is no problem". They have always been pretty impressive to me in terms of construction. Much more forward thinking at least than the standard "pop out" attitude of "meh, it is what it is".🤙
Didnt finish this video but on the off chance theres some surfboard competition i happen to have won, ill take an eps please, as long as its an eco board! Love that stuff! Gotta be one of my favourite materials
😂
😆 well played, I’ll let you know if any competition like that ever comes up!
Is that string on the fin for your leg rope? Is that where they use to put it?
Yea, it’s a pretty traditional set up for a board of that era. The only other real option true to the board would be no leash attachment at all
Fix the dings, tidy it up, make it watertight and take it out for a paddle.
That’s the ticket 🤙
@@smallkinedings I have a really old Longboard that I restored, I was told that it was one of the first foam and glass boards to come to Australia. When I was sanding it down I sanded off a bubble in the glass and it was the old hand drawn logo it was mostly destroyed as I didn't realise that's what it might have been. I haven't sent any photos or emails to an old bloke in Hawaii yet I was told to get in contact with Randy Rarrick as he would probably be the best person to ask about this board. It could be worth a very lot of money especially if it's from the shaper I think it is. 🤙
lol it looks like some sort of tar or similar that they use, for example, to artificially age guitars and furniture, and I bet it tastes... tar-y. very interesting points about EPS, I like EPS/epoxy builds because they (1) let me ride a slightly smaller board and still have good float, and (2) they are harder to ding in the first place than PU. but, in terms of the actual sustainability of EPS foam, yeah, very interesting points.
Haha, like a stain kind of. Interesting thoughts on potential use for products like that come to mind! It’s a powdered guide coat to show me any scratches left behind by my previous sanding grit.
Seems lots of folks prefer the feel of EPS/epoxy which is fair enough. As for being harder to ding, that fully depends on the glassed and glassing schedule of the board. I get plenty off the rack epoxy board that will ding if you look at them the wrong way! Not to say all of them, but study that glassing!
what was that black stuff you applied to the back of the board and what does it taste like?
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat, it shows up any scratches that need to be removed before moving onto the next sanding grit.
It tastes like that month old piece of burnt pepperoni you find in the bottom of your oven!
in my experience, my pu boards last 6-12 months when ridden regularly before loosing their spring, while eps epoxy last 12-24 months depending on make and construction.
''Spring'' is certainly an interesting topic and I think maybe comes down to how much foam is taken off the blank during shaping/cncing and where it's been taken off. I've got some PU boards that still have their ''pop'' years later and others that seemed to turn into dead noodles seemingly over night!
Surfboards are a fickle thing, skateboards are much more simple haha!
So what was that Brown stuff? Great vid mate 👌
That is a powdered guide coat! It sits in the scratches of the previous grit to let me know when all those scratches have been sanded away. I actually don’t use it very often, I had planned to talk about it in this video but did a Ted talk instead!
Very informative, well whatever the black stuff is I'm sure it's very tasty, I'm almost certain you consume it daily 😋
Tastes like the burnt cheese drippings at the bottom of your oven after making nachos!
Don’t know about restoration vs repair or even if it matters to me at all. I do know I enjoyed the video a great deal and the thought and care it took not only to do the work on the surf board but also the making of the video itself.
Appreciate it very much! Both are a lot of work and I'm certainly better at ding repairs than making videos 😂
He he algo question here, what is that black stuff and did it taste kinda interesting? please do a short on it if you get a mo!
Will definitely do a video on it soon! It’s a powdered guide coat and it tastes like bbq charcoal!
What is that blackish stuff you put on at the end and how does it taste?
That be a powdered guide coat to assist in removing all the scratches from the previous grit. It tastes like when you prank your mate by rolling him a cigarette with 3 extra filters in it. Once he gets to the stage where he's smoking straight filter, that is the taste!
Thanks for all the thought's and letting us into ya mind space. Just one question. Do you ever work, or do you just love what ya do? Ta Stay salty
😎✌️.
Like anything, it has its good days and it's bad days but comparatively, the bad days are pretty good! Definitely love my job and my little business!
cool resto mod . what was that fin thing ? good vid thanks
Chur bro! Fin thing? You mean the fin, or the fin thing?
@@smallkinedings the black square rudder was just weird
@@chulieho the original fin you mean?
I've got pretty much the same board as that here in the UK - same sort of age 1960's. 9'6" big and heavy known here as a Bilbo. In far better nick than this, but still could do with a bit of TLC. It's just sitting in the garage up on the rafters. Should sell it really.
Nice! I can recommend a Facebook page called “vintage surfboard collectors”. There is a wealth of knowledge on that page and they will definitely guide you in finding out its collectable value
What is the black stuff?
Cheers mate, a South African who surfed J-Bay back in the days of Sean Thompson.
🤘👽🤘
Unreal! I dream of that right hander! I don't suppose you ever met a lady named Vanessa did you, she used to manage all the houses/accommodation in front of Jbay.
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat to show scratches that need be removed from my previous sanding before I move onto the next grit 🤙
The never ending debate. And honestly, all options are correct. Same with cars. Some take the thing to beyond original factory condition and there's a place and a market for all of it. I think the most important thing is making the board surfable again.
Haha, I actually had your clip of blowing up boards with the air compressor downloaded to use in this video but I couldn't find a good spot to squeeze um in! 100%, if the bulk of the material can be saved and enjoyed for years to come, it's a winner either way! Theres 2 audiences to cater for, the die hard vintage collectors and the everyday surfer. It's pretty hard to do a job that pleases both those crowds but as long as one is stoked on the end result then it's a win!
@@smallkinedings oh man you should use it!! Also use it as an example, just because a lot of people watched it. Doesn’t mean I know shit about making surfboards 😂
I bought a EPS once and after 4 surfs where my front foot lands it had sunk nearly an inch.
Never again .
Great vid much appreciated
Where are you based? I have an old single fon id love to get restored so I can surf it
Cheers
The issue with a soft inner core. Really gotta make sure you make up for it withbthe glassing!
I'm in Mangawhai, NZ
New sub here. Liked the vid. Enjoy your craft..
Very much appreciated, welcome!
I really was going to ask about the black stuff. I've shaped several windsurfers for personal use since the late '80s. I started with PU and epoxy (and kevlar just to add to the difficulty LOL) and moved to extruded ps and epoxy. Since I've never glassed a board with poly, I'm curious as to what is it that makes epoxy so much more annoying?
The black stuff is a powdered guide coat. It sits within my say, 120 scratches and won’t disappear until the 120 scratches have been sanded away with 240. I can then reapply and it won’t disappear until my 240 scratches have been removed with my 320 and so on.
In fairness to epoxy, issues usually come from resin coating, occasionally curing of lamination but mostly just resin coats.
Epoxy is very sensitive to all kinds of things. Curing should really be done in specific temperatures as should application. Fish eyes, amine blushing and undermixing are probably the most common things I get contacted about.
Surfaces need to be kept incredibly clean and free from other elements such as grease from your fingers, paints, solvents silicones etc. epoxy is very sensitive and cross comtamination is easily done and narrowing down the source of the problem can be very difficult as the list of potential errors is so long. Fire wire are currently dealing with this after their compressor sprayed oil on a number of blanks before glassing and this is now coming back to haunt them.
In a perfect world (like super yachts) it would be applied in a lab like setting that is temperature controlled for application and curing especially in a space where no other chemical other than epoxy is used.
It’s all possible though and I generally enjoy working with epoxy because of its strength and working time but curing or drying time is probably my biggest issue with it now days. Not all epoxies are born the same too and I’m definitely very happy with the entropy resins I use and steer clear of many others that seem to be more temperamental.
@@smallkinedings Guide coat! Great idea! I've only just learned about guide coat for auto body work and it makes total sense to use the way you do. As for epoxy, I've had many issues over the years (shaped my first board in '83) and I can attest to all the issues you outline. I'm just so used to using epoxy and completely unfamiliar with poly or vinyl resins that I'd be scared to use it for a project. Thanks for the reply!
Our local shaper/repairer legend here makes bank on all the EPS crap... SUPs, Firewire boards, SLSC paddle boards. More cash than he makes selling his own PU boards. The last EPS board I made at Easter weighs in at 2.25kg, 5'11 and displaces about 37litres. 10 surfs in, I can already see the glue stinger is proud where the deck has sunk either side. I'll be lucky to get 2 years out of it. BUT... I could have done that board in PU with more glass... and struggled with it in small, gutless waves. Shaper friend was about to glass one of my boards, and asked what I wanted in terms of glass. I told him, "I'd rather have a light, high-performing board that lasts a year than a heavy turd that lasts forever". Like almost everything now, surfboards have become consumables.
I hear ya! Hopefully what EPS construction has brought to and set a precedent for in board manufacturing leads to a better product than both PU and EPS!
Is the black material inside the string hole to seal the glass fibres from water ingress?
Bang on! The black material was just tinted resin with some chopped 6oz. Then re drilled so the water is only making contact with the resin and not seeping into the layers of glass that make up the fin.
@@smallkinedings Go me! Did I win that piece of leash string?!
I work in the surf tourism industry. 90% of my boards are eps. It’s a horrible material, but these have “become” very sustainable. Some of them are 10 to 15 year old and still look and perform great. Still as much fun to ride like on the 1st day and each board shows it’s history in the drawings, signatures and messages customers leave on them.With proper maintenance most things can last a long time. That’s way more sustainable than buying the next new eco board every year that you think you need to satisfy your ego. Surfers in general buy way to much shit they don’t need for their hobby. Rather give my money to the local repair professionals, than to the big industrial production every year.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. The most “eco friendly” board is the one that lasts the longest. People could certainly sink money into repairing boards that would be still “perfectly fine” but we are all so quick to get rid of the old for the new with little thought or hesitation.
Where do you work? I’ve always been impressed by places with limited access to boards like the Phillipines to keep old boards alive, seemingly forever be it EPS or PU
@@smallkinedings Portugal at the Surf Farm Figueira. Plenty of boards and factories here, but he have to start somewhere.
What is the black stuff you rubbed on the board? Oil paint?
Was going to discuss it in this video but, I was busy with a Ted talk! Will do a video on it this week, might be a handy product for many! But, the short answer is that it’s a powdered guide coat