Did Jesus HAVE to DIE to Save Us? | Trent Horn
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- Caller asks Trent Horn, Catholic Answers Apologist, why Jesus had to die for our sins instead of simply forgiving us. Was it a choice that God made or was Jesus's death on a cross mandatory for our salvation?
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Thank you! Coming from a protestant background, I have struggled greatly to understand the difference in atonement and sacrifice between the two doctrines. This just clarified my understanding and answered the questions I have been searching for answers for!
Hard to believe Trent could attempt to answer this question without mention of Original Sin (sorry if I missed it). He seems to be grouping all sins including personal sins together as far as needing atonement. To put as simply as possible, Adam, the representative finite creature (Man) by sinning against the Infinite God, created an “ infinite” chasm between God and man. Only an Infinite Person could close this Infinite chasm as per will of God, by offering a perfect act of love in the finite (as new Adam “Son of Man”). Thus the sacrifice of Calvary by the God-Man, Our Lord Jesus Christ satisfies Infinite Justice and restored the original union of God and Man which we now have by way of Baptism!
But if that is so, how come we are still dying? There is still no (real) union with God. Something is misssing. You may say that I must wait for the second coming. What exactly is missing?
@@johnmartin5671 Are you kidding? Unless it is when the world ends, you don’t have to die to reach eternity? Or are you doubting we possess a spirit, an immortal soul?
To be fair to Trent, atonement is a complex issue that's difficult to adequately cover in a short call-in show answer. Generally speaking, there are four types of atonement theory: Christus Victor, satisfaction, moral example and penal substitution. For Catholics, penal substitution is not acceptable. Bishop Barron gives a great version of Christus Victor and Richard Swinburne explains satisfaction theory nicely (worth looking up here on YT). Also, the Orthodox have the recapitulation theory of atonement, the healing of human nature.
"He who knew no sin became sin for us, so that we could become the righteousness of God which is in Christ Jesus."
"The life is in the blood." "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin."
Firstly, wouldn't it be necessary for God's justice to demand a sacrifice like the Crucifixion or, because of his infinite love, show us the ultimate meaning of love through Jesus's Passion, respectively; wouldn't that make the Crucifixion not merely an option in a number of ways for God to forgive our sins, but a necessity?
Secondly, if (mortal) sins are infinitely grave, I'm not sure if the Crucifixion would merit more graces than necessary because wouldn't it, the infinite sacrifice, ''merely'' be enough to compensate the infinite crime of mortal sin, but not be MORE than is actually necessary?
Do you have a Podcast? Would love to listen on a daily basis. Amazing explinatin
Counsel of Trent. I love to listen to Trent.
Jesus said love your enemies pray for those who persecute you. Jesus death on the cross was to fulfill his father's will. Jesus said same " not all who say Lord Lord ,will enter in,but those who do the will of my Father"
I've made the point that Jesus didn't have to die and I get push back from other Catholics for that. They rightfully point out that there is a matter of justice at stake, that sins against God are an offense that demand restitution, that Jesus paid our debt by his perfect life of obedience and sacrifice even unto death, which is super abundant, more than needed to make up for the sins of the world. However, I still maintain that Jesus didn't have to die in the strict sense that there was no other way for us to be forgiven. We could have just been forgive by decree. Jesus said he could call a legion of angels to rescue him and it would have been right for him to do so because he was innocent. However, God wishes to accomplish more than just our forgiveness in a declarative sense. He wishes to free us from sin and unit us with himself, to deify us in a sense. This union of human and divine is the goal. So, Jesus' incarnation (not just his death and resurrection) is essential to understand this. The perfect gift (sacrifice) of himself (the perfect union of human and divine) to the Father through compete obedience even unto death creates a permanent (by virtue of his resurrection) union of humanity and divinity, a new creation, such that if we unit ourselves with Christ, we too become like him, united with the Father.
Trent Horn is usually good with answering objections and other issues. But in my opinion, he did a horrible job answering this question
SPOT ON
I agree with Trent. Let me add the fact that his death ultimately is needed to show his resurrection and defeat over death.
1 Peter 2:23-25
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and glive to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Can’t get around this one either. Old Testament fulfillment, Substitutional atonement.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
The LORD passed over the homes with the blood of the Passover lamb in the Old Testament while he poured out judgement and wrath upon the Egyptians , and here it clearly says that Jesus Christ is the Passover lamb! The Passover lamb HAD TO DIE in order for the blood to be spread over the doors, that covered the children of Israel, and the LORD passed over them.
JESUS PAID ALL OF OUR SINS ON THE CROSS TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM JOHN 3: 1-21 KJB
I recall 2 lines from St. Paul: "i preach Christ. And Him crucified." the other quote (paraphrase): "Christ died so that He might be God of the living AND the dead." To me, those words signify the importance of Christ's death. Not just the fact that He died but the manner in which He died. Tortured, unrecognizably disfigured. As Isaiah said "we shunned him as one despised.. he was crushed that we might live.. (please PLEASE forgive if i misquote the scriptures! And feel free to correct any errors you find) Also, at the moment of death, Christ cried out, "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me!?" This He also endured. For us. 😔 So all humanity can call on Him as one of them. At His lowest point - rejected, despised, scorned, humiliated - Christ chose to identify with US. Us broken, suffering human beings. Us who are misunderstood, trivialised, ignored and abandoned as hopeless cases. We have Someone who shows us suffering and death are not the end. We have Hope. He is like us "in all things except sin." So His death was not an attempt to "wipe clean (our) slate". Only Purgatory can do that. (Because our sins inevitably affect other people. The victims of our sins deserve Justice. Even if we obtain Mercy - by going to confession and showing genuine remorse - all those people we hurt along the way cannot be "un-hurt" without Justice being meted out. (for that i rely on Faustina's Diary).
Trust in Christ alone for salvation! He is the only one who can save you! Confession to a priest can never wash away your sins. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and Man and we can approach Him with boldness because of the blood he shed for us. He took our sins as far as the east is from the west ma’am when he died on the cross. You can’t find the east from the west. ( Psalm 103:12 as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.) Please, rest assured that Christ wiped your slate clean if you repent and trust in Him. Do not trust in purgatory this is not biblical, do not trust in any good work ( Isaiah 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.) Only trust that when you die you will be covered with Christs righteousness and not your own! Read the Bible on your own, do not listen to man, he will pervert the gospel. The Good news= the Gospel…. By grace alone you are saved! Ephesians 2:18-19
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
@@laurenlonge6048 Jesus tells His disciples "whose sins you forgive are forgiven them" and Jesus also tells ALL the people He forgave to "go and sin no more."
In ACTS the apostles are able to give their authority and power to a new disciple who is then made into an apostle equal to themselves. This practice continues even to this day in the apostolic succession of the Catholic Church.
Faith in Christ is not merely believing He is God. Even Satan believes Jesus is God. To truly say that you believe in Christ means to do as Christ commands you to do.
If Christ says "Go and sin no more" and then you "Go and sin as much as you want" you do not truly believe in Christ.
Furthermore, Jesus even has parables where He says that those who did not feed, clothe, visit, or minister to him (as in the least among us) will be thrown out of the kingdom. That is crystal clear proof that NOT doing good WILL land you in Hell.
Works do not save you but they are evidence of real faith. Those who say they have faith in Christ but do not live as Christ commanded are lying.
You are right! Soteriology is a mystery where "pieces" are missing to complete the "puzzle"! It was not for nothing that Jesus warned the disciples that He still had things to say to them but that they were not yet in a position to hear them...
"The righteous for the unrighteous"
Wow, why do we Catholics have to make things so complex, convoluted, and complicated. Jesus, as part of the God head did it out of Love for us. Jesus as Son did it out of trust, obedience , and love for the Father.
It's called atonement through the redemptive power of suffering and death to self. A divine example of the way, the truth, and the life. The Father walking the talk. Go ask Abraham.
Our call to the Cross and the reminder of the wages of sin and that with death to self comes life.
Our example for true Agape Love; SACRIFICE!
Because atonement is a complicated doctrine that theologians have struggled with for centuries. Driving a car is pretty simple but explaining the exact details of a combustion engine is complicated. Saying Jesus died for sin is simple but explaining exactly how that works is complicated. What you're laying out is called the moral example theory of atonement. Traditional Catholic theology has followed the satisfaction theory of St. Anselm of Canterbury. Many of the Church Fathers held to what's called the Christus Victor theory. It's complicated.
My brother, unfortunately you made my point. Our relationship with our triune God was never meant to be complicated although extremely tough to live out.
This awesome wonderful Creator of ours has no surprises when it comes to knowing who He is, if we've taken the time we can know Him fully.
He invites EVERYONE, regardless of their intellect, to know Him and to love, trust, and obey Him completely. While we will never fully comprehend the depth of His Compassion, Mercy, and Love in this life, there are no surprises as to who He is and what He wants for us. The purpose of the 'Living Word.'
Like children we are called to the simplicity of a pure, humble, and authentic relationship with Abba.
It doesn't have to be complicated.
@@Larry_Apodaca Then you can tell that to the Church Fathers, St. Anselm, and St. Thomas Aquinas too. If dumbed down Christianity works for you, great. But, I would suggest for the sake of our youth that you keep it to yourself.
I'm not your enemy. I'm sorry if I made you angry brother. Abundant Blessings!
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
What about 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Isaiah 53:6? Isn't it substitution?
Show him bro 💪
A Roman Catholic Nailed It, One Hundred Percent. I've never Heard It Explained So Well From A Roman Catholic!! I've Heard It Explained Well From Protestants, I Was Saved Protestant, I'm Orthodox Now, And I Still Believe This, Even As An orthodox Christian
No one died to pay your sin debt. If so that person would still be dead. Thats the wages for sins, eternal death. Repentance is the ONLY
propiation for your sins. Like the story Jesus told about the prodigal son. Or Zacheus whos whole house found salvation because he repented. Or King David who was forgiven immediately when he confessed his sin and repented sincerely. No blood sacrifice was EVER accepted for willful sins in the bible. Only repentence. Ezekiel 18.
You must offer YOUR LIFE as a sacrifice for others on your own cross of self denial. It was a metaphor not literal. 1:42
Can you explain Matthew 26:39 in the context of what you said regarding Jesus wanting to offer himself?
Jesus wasn’t reluctant to give his life as a ransom for believing mankind. He was deeply concerned about the possibility of dishonoring his dearly beloved Father by dying on a torture stake as a cursed blasphemer.
Was Born Again protestant, I'm Orthodox, I'd Say This Is An Excellent Presentation Coming From A Roman Catholic.
If u were truly born again u wouldn’t go back. U can’t say u r born again then say I accept idolatry now. 1 John 2:19 says “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” Idolatry is very serious to God. It is something God despises all over the Bible. “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,” Exodus 20:4-5. Do not water down God’s clear command. Saul said I am following God’s command but I’m just taking a few animals to sacrifice to God. God did not say, oh it’s ok, you had good intentions. No, God gave Saul an evil spirit. 1 Samuel 15,16. Do not fiddle with God’s command. Repent and trust in Jesus
@@Alexander07865, what makes u think I'm committing idolatry? I Agree, u can't worship idols and Worship Christ. Orthodox Christians don't worship idols. Besides, The Protestant Church, The Church I Got Saved In, I got harsh words against them: Moody Bible Institue holding conferences with false teachers, Chris Tomlin leading worship for false teachers like Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland claiming Jesus appeared to him and didn't claim to be God. Oh, lest we forget, explain please, why Kenneth Copeland called Creflo Dollar Jesus manifested in the flesh, then got down on all fours and worshipped him? "Oh, you're an idolator, because u Became An Orthodox Christian, you can't really Love God As An Orthodox Christian, u can't really Believe Christ's Death on The Cross Saves your soul if you're Orthodox Christian." rethink that again. There's widespread idol worship across The Protestant Church right now, and if it hit u in the forehead, you wouldn't see it for yourself. My Faith Is In Christ. It Has Been In Christ For Twenty-Three Years. Being Protestant doesn't Save u anymore than being Orthodox In Name. We don't worship idols. We Worship Christ, There's Only One God, His Name Is Jesus Christ. I doubt you Understand That.
@@OrthodoxChristianBeliever I'm not those people and l'm not a Protestant. I'm saying this because I was baptized in a Greek Orthodox Church and as I grew up and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior I got born again and I noticed how many icons and imagery there is in the Orthodox Church as for the Catholic Church but a lot or the Orthodox Church and want to say that God is clear on his command to not even imagine what people looked like because it can lead to worship this here we are 2023 people are worshiping creation more than creator. Exodus 20:4 says "you shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." God is clear he is very jealous too. Exodus 20:5.
U might not be the one committed idolatry, I'm not saying u r, but the Orthodox Church has a lot of imagery and needs to be addressed. God bless. Repent and trust in Jesus
@@Alexander07865, maybe u weren't Saved In Orthodoxy. Nobody in Orthodoxy worships icons. I'm not trying to pull u back into it if u don't think God wants u there, but I left the pentecostal movement because of the mess in it. U keep telling me to Repent, I Did, August, 2000. That's When I Got Saved. And actually, u r. If u r Independent Baptist, Church Of Christ, Non-Denominational, Lutheran, American Baptist, Episcopal, and I don't even know why they call themselves Christian, any of the pentecostal denominations, then yes, u r Protestant.
@@OrthodoxChristianBeliever I’m not a Pentecostal and I disagree with a lot they do. I’m glad we can find common group. I pray God shows us the truth and we should just focus on Jesus not man. God bless.
Trent is trying to avoid the language of punishment but I don't think that's possible. I more complete presentation needs to grapple with God's dishonour, wrath and expiation
Because sin deserves death?
Yes for sinners,they went over the theory of penal substitution and it’s issues in the video.
Come on. That s a protestant issue
Isaiah 53:4-6
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
Just read the word of GOD. No need to read the article he is referring to. The Lord God the Father of the trinity was pleased to bruise Him, because He is a just God!
Amen!! To the LORD God be the Glory alone. Jesus died for our sins; was "crushed for our iniquities...and the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him...Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him". I thank the LORD Jesus Christ for voluntarily taking my punishment. He is Truly Worthy of all praise, all Honor and all Glory forever and ever. Hallelujah
the explanation doesnt answer the question, make it simple
Can you explain why Jesus asked the Father if the cup could pass from Him?
THE CUP OF GOD’S WRATH
YES, he did the EXACT thing he came to do. to DIE for our sins
Lol nope
NO. God is sovereign and His hand cannot be forced.
Will be praying for you guys. Just read the Bible, trust Christ for salvation & repent. This is what man does to completely and absolutely twist the word of God.
Why do you find the Catholic Faith false?
@Anna Słowik hello my friend, I was reading the Bible last night and I read somewhere in 2 Corinthians something along the lines of, examine yourself to see whether or not you're in the faith, do you not realize that christ is within you? Unless of course you fail the test.. so I tested whether I could say for certain that I was going to heaven.. I tested my faith against what the scriptures told me.. I didn't fail the test because it says my spot in heaven is promised to me.. but it gets better.. your spot is promised as well and it is very easy to get in.. wanna know the hard part? Having enough faith to test your faith..
Yikes Trent’s getting roasted here. Not his best work.
The 2 titles of your pope's names of blasphemy holy Father and pontifex maximus or highest priest. You can't serve 2 master's at once, its Christ or pope's but you serve both master's,now it's Mary now.
2:31 What is the harm or damage caused by sins?
It is written "The wages of sin is death." Unrepentant sin is the ultimate form of self-harm.
@@AndrewTheMandrew531: So, life expectancy is lower for people who commit more sin? Or sin kills you outright?
@@seans5289 "death" refers to spiritual death. When God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, God said
"You must not eat the fruit of that tree; if you do, you will die the same day". Did Adam and Even physically die the day the ate the fruit? No. They died spiritually, their nature became corrupt.
@@VeNeRaGe: So, their spirits were harmed?
How does Trent know God’s mind?
God reveals his mind through his word!
wELL tHe cHuRcH sAiD
POLL: do any of you Catholics have eternal life....or just behavior modification??
I don’t really get the question. But as Catholics we do believe that eternal life awaits those who love God and keep his commandments (in general and beyond the 10 commandments) as guided by the one true Church.
Are you saying those who are born again do not have behavior modification? That they can continue leading their sinful life but are now guaranteed entry to heaven no matter what they do?...or what they believe?
This doesn't many any sense at all. It's one of the many many MANY reasons I left the church and stopped believing in all of this. Why is Jesus's death a sacrifice and not just a consequence of being human at that time? Was it all deliberate? Was the crucifiction deliberate and planned out or was it just the consequence of his actions and he just dealt with it? And how does him getting tortured to death put us right with God? Wouldn't that make things a whole lot worse? I mean, a few middle eastern guys 2,000 years ago beat to death god himself when he transformed himself into a human and came down as an ambassador. If that is not an act of war then what is? And how or what... Like NOTHING MAKES ANY SENSE! The magic in fantasy novels makes a lot more sense than this nonsense. I got so sick of the mental gymnastics and word salads pretending to explain it that I finally got extremely fed up and it all just clicked in my head: This is all BS! Why am I even believing it? I am a damned fool.
Well, Jesus had free will and did everything perfectly right, according to the Father's will. He could have not done that, we could have not existed in the first place. But He wanted us to have eternal life and be infinetely happy, that's why He created us with free will. And that's why He died for our salvation. And yes, even though those who tortured Him commited a serious sin, He also died for them. One could say it's the opposite of what we'd normally expect. We'd expect the Son of God to live like an earthly king, but He was born in poverty, healed and fed the poor
It might sound strange, but what I know for sure is that you're His beloved person and He wants you with Him for all eternity. Just remember - you can always come back, His infinite Mercy is always available for those who truly want to repent and regret falling away
@@amask99 You misunderstand me: There is nothing to "repent" about. I did not choose to exist and I am never going to be sorry for a choice in which I had no say in.
@@xm377Moyocoyatzin I think you're only mentioning the original sin. In that case, yes, it isn't our choice that we exist and we have a wounded nature, but God doesn't find us personally guilty for it. But even after being baptized or without it, we have inclinations towards sin and even though we have enough grace to resist it, we don't always do that. Even secular people notice that they've reacted too harshly, could have spoken up, could have raised their kids better. Not many people claim they are perfect. To be with the perfectly good God, those faults have to be forgiven
Yes, I have the same line of thought as you. This Penal Substitution Atonement makes God the Father, the first of the trinity, to be a Demon. I'm not gonna worship a Demon. Trent said Catholics reject it which they officially do but he gives such a poor model to try and explain what he believes. This PSA Model is a Western Protestant view that was adopted in recent time. You should look into Eastern Christianity, in Eastern Orthodoxy this model is also rejected and they believe in something completely different. There is more to Christianity than Western Christianity.
This has to be taken back to Abel. Jesus counts Abel as a Prophet. Abel made an offering that was pleasing to God. Cain was jealous of this and killed Abel. think about it: Abel offered an acceptable sacrifice, but was killed - a perverted sacrifice. His blood went into the ground and cried out to God. Adam sinned, but he never killed anyone. also, God taught Adam how to sacrifice, because we know God made skins from an animals clothing. We know Adam must have taught both his sons about how to relate to God because both sons made an offering. Abel offered his with a better attitude. The name Cain means: Gift from God. Eve named him. The Bible doesn't give us the meaning of Abel's name, although it means vapour and can even be linked to the word idols. This is very odd. Why would one son be named: a gift from God and the other (better) son as mere vapour. Eve thought Cain was her man from God, and this echoes what God says about the offspring of the woman vs offspring of the serpent in Genesis 3. Eve thinks Cain is a man of God, when really he belongs to the devil, the first liar and killer according to Jesus. After Abel is killed the first couple have another son and in Genesis 5 we are told Adam names him and that Seth was in the image and likeness of Adam, which echoes that Adam was made in the image and likeness of God. Eve thought Cain was like the Messiah, but it was the younger son who was more akin to the Messiah, and why Jesus calls him the first prophet. Why? His blood. The required sacrifice of Jesus can only be explained in this regard and this is echoes at the end of the Flood account, when Noah steps onto restored creation and the first thing he does is build an altar and sacrifice. This echoes Abel. For a period it was animals that would atone, as God initiated in Genesis 3, when He clothed Adam and Eve with animal skins. The first blood spilled was therefore an animals blood. Satan and Cain perverted this.
A visceral reminder? So ad hoc I can't even. Hebrews 9:22 "without the shedding of blood there is no remission". Leave it to Caths to get the bible wrong... again
Its unbelievable. Catholics are so far removed from basic biblical truth. I strongly suspect its a diversion away from the blood sacrifices of the law of Moses. As you quoted, without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin. But it was absolutely forbidden to eat the blood. Catholics drink the blood ( they believe) which is abomination. Thats why they divert away from it. Another catholic deception is calling the passover, the last supper. This diverts away from the passover connection which Jesus specifically called it.
I just read Hebrews 9:22 and the verse makes reference to the 'law' requiring the shedding of blood. That verse combined with Hebrews 10: 4-6 and Psalms 40:6-8 is fairly clear that the shedding of blood is a requirement of the old covenant.
@@stephenmerritt5750 seems that way to me too
@@astutik8909 I agree completely
"A visceral reminder? So ad hoc I can't even."
I'm not sure I understand your objection. Do you not personally have a visceral reaction to seeing depictions of Christ's death, or thinking about the reality of the event? Do you think it is abnormal for those who do? In my experience, it is fairly common for even non-Christians to have a visceral reaction to the crucifixion and for Christians to further to think it highly significant that such a sacrifice was offered in atonement for our sins.
You can't even what?
Trent, just say "it's a mystery", and move on.
You reject substitutionary atonement? Wow. You say Jesus didn’t have to die? OK… Let’s listen to what GOD says…Romans 6:23…”The wages of sin is DEATH.” Hebrews 9:22…” without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins”. That is why God told the Jews to sacrifice animals, and not “place a flower”That is why Jesus HAD to die. The wages of sin is death‼️
Adam was given eternal life in the garden of Eden. Because he sinned, he now had to face DEATH. Romans 5:12…” therefore, just as through one man, sin entered into the world, and DEATH through sin, and so DEATH SPREAD to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:15-19…” for if many DIED by the trespass of one man … the judgment, followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and BROUGHT JUSTIFICATION… for if by the trespass of the one man, DEATH reigned through that one man…” The early Jews sacrificed animals to “substitutionarily atone” for sin, but they had to keep repeating it, over and over and over again. Jesus’s blood sacrifice, was a ONE TIME “substitutionary atonement.” Hebrews 10:18…” there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.”
Substitutionary atonement is clearly written in Scripture… In black-and-white… Needs no interpretation. It means what it says, and it says what it means. Anybody who repents, and believes in Christ’s substitutionary atonement for their sins, will pass from death to life without condemnation (John 5:24). Sorry to let a little thing like “what God says” get in the way of your theology.
Were you referring this to myself?
@@jessidiaz1891 yes, lol… I didn’t wanna repeat the same comment, but if you can’t find it, I will. It’s on the main video.
@@jessidiaz1891 I think I misunderstood what you said… I was directing it to the guys who made the video… They are the ones who said it… But it kind of pertains to what we were talking about, that’s why I wanted you to read it.
@@gloriastreet4684 ok cool lol. I mean you and I were conversing recently about the Church and I mentioned about the historical evidence pertaining to it. Now, this comment you addressed to them regarding atonement (penal substitution) which is a doctrine of John Calvin… this is a veryy longgg topic lol.
@@jessidiaz1891 No …It’s in Scripture lol, it’s a doctrine introduced by Jesus Christ. That’s why he came, that’s why he suffered, that’s why he died. If you don’t believe in Jesus’s substitutionary atonement, you are in deep deep trouble😿 I only wanted you to read this, because it deals with the difference between what God says, and what man says, which is what we were talking about
These guys just have no Idea jesus was born of a woman hence he was like us. We not inherit a sinful nature or original sin. If so genesis 1v26 makes no sense. Just a theological human digression. They just prattling on not knowing what they saying.
There simply was NOT a blood sacrifice at the Last Supper
Why do you think not? It was Passover, I would think there certainly was.
How in the world do Catholics invent this idea that Jesus didnt have to die for our sins...but also that there was a BLOOD SACRIFICE at the Last Supper? Yikes!
How on earth did u reach the conclusion that it is a Catholic invention?
It is almost like Mr. Horn has never read the Bible based on this terrible explanation. I am stunned that he is a leading Catholic apologist!
Catholics are hopelessly lost. They ask: "Did Jesus have to die to save us"? Of Jesus, the Catholic Athanasian Creed says: "[Jesus] is eternal." The dictionary defines 'eternal,' saying: "Without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing." So, if Jesus lasts forever, how could he die? *NOT POSSIBLE!!*
Catholics also believe that the human soul is immortal. As one Catholic website says: "From the moment of conception, every person has a unique and immortal soul." The word 'immortal' means, "not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying:" So, if Jesus' human soul is immortal, it can't die.
So, clearly, Catholics don't believe Jesus ever died. They are profoundly confused. Why, then, is the question asked: "Did Jesus have to die to save us"?
Human beings are composed of body and soul. At death, the soul is separated from the body--this is, in fact, the definition of death: the separation of the soul from the body. After the separation occurs, the body decays, but the soul lives on, awaiting the day when Christ returns to reunite it with its reassembled body. (In other words, the soul is the principle of life in man, but man is not fully alive and does not fully exist without his body. Hence, while his principle of life survives the death of his body, he can't be said to be fully alive as a human being until he gets his body back.)
"Eternal" means "outside of time," or "not bound or limited by time." The divine Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, is eternal--he exists in a permanent, unchanging "now." All of time and change is contained in this "now." Jesus is the divine Word become incarnate in a human being--the divine, infinite and eternal, united with the corporeal, finite and temporal. Thus, while the Word considered in itself, not being subject to change, cannot die, the man Jesus can, and he can also be raised again on the third day by the power of the divine Word united to him.
@@jimnewl "Human beings are composed of body and soul. At death, the soul is separated from the body--this is, in fact, the definition of death."
Not so. Death is the termination of life. When the body dies, the soul dies. As Ez. 18:4 says: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." At death, the soul does not live on.
Who cares what Saint Thomas Aquinas says… That’s what is the matter with your religion. You don’t pay attention to what Jesus says. You pay attention to what a bunch of men say, and a bunch of dead people say. I thank Jesus every day that he led me to the truth and out of your a pagan religion. Thank you Jesus Christ✝️
If you don’t care about what the doctors of the Church teach us then why come on here claiming not to care? I assume you do not understand how serious it is to accuse the Catholic Church of being pagan.
@@GovtWatchdog it is deadly serious
What about protestant pastors who proclaim the prosperity gospel? What about all those time they tried to predict the end of the world and it never came through? Protestantism has only been around for 500 years!. Jesus got it right the first time when he established his one and only true church
@@jesushernandez-eo8fq I am not a protestant, and you won’t find me defending them. I agree with everything, you said… And I argue with them just as much in the comment section I am a Christian… That is the one true church that Jesus Christ found it… Not any denomination, including yours?
@@jesushernandez-eo8fq sorry… I use voice texting and I didn’t proofread lol.… I am a Christian… That is the truth church that Jesus Christ founded. Religion was invented by Satan to turn people away from God… Including yours.
No wonder u receive such low views because ur preaching blasphemy thank yeshua I came out of this great deception called the RCC
I suppose you could do a better job than Trent? I’d ask you to go ahead.
@@noahgaming88332nd timothy 2 15
STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
@@charnelallan7159 ok, not the point of what I was saying in my original post.