Cameron Bertuzzi & James White Discuss Catholicism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video, Cameron Bertuzzi and James White discuss the papacy, White's top objections to Catholicism, and more!
This video originally aired on The Dividing Line: • Let's Talk About the P...
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Time-stamps
23:18, 24:02, 25:20 - what is the papacy? Does the papacy necessarily entail Catholicism?
28:43, 29:30, 30:30 - Vatican l
26:07 - debating liberal Catholics
31:07 - Matthew 18
31:36 - Vatican 1
39:30 - who disagrees, according to White?
41:30, 41:45 - Irenaeus and Victor, infallibility
45:03 - Babylonian captivity and two popes
46:40 - Council of Constance
47:30 - Council of Nicaea
48:38, 49:00 - canon 6
49:32, 49:44 - Rome’s representatives
47:58, 48:08 - did the bishop of Rome give up on the deity of Christ?
Thanks!😊
Protestants pretend they don’t have Popes… we all do.
@ktownbball ktownbball yes you do, here you have a very important quote from your first pope.
"It is easier to live as a Protestant, but better to die as a CATHOLIC"
- Martin Luther
@ktownbball ktownbball No he’s in fact your first Pope, now you probably have a new one in the likes of James White, trust me I know is confusing for you guys. But not only that, Luther is THE archetype of the cult of men and his quotes are very well documented and researched; in fact that quote his very own quote… He was in fact a VERY interesting man, here you have some more interesting quotes from him.
“[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.”
~Martin Luther~
“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.”
~Martin Luther~
“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”
~Martin Luther~
“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.”
~Martin Luther~
Again, from Luther’s deathbed as he seek reconciliation.
"It is easier to live as a Protestant, but better to die as a CATHOLIC"
- Martin Luther
@ktownbball ktownbball You obviously don’t know much about Luther! You might not like some
of his quotes because they challenge your belief system but that doesn’t change the fact that he said them.
Do you also agree with things like this I might ask? Or are the following quotes also “fake”?
“Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous must have been guilty of fornication before He died.” (ref. Trishreden, Weimer Edition, Vol. 2, Pg. 107. - What a great blasphemy from a man who is regarded as “great reformer”!).
1. “I look upon God no better than a scoundrel” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 1, Pg. 487. Cf. Table Talk, No. 963).
4. “It does not matter how Christ behaved - what He taught is all that matters” (ref. Erlangen Vol. 29, Pg. 126).
1. “Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides… No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.” (ref. ‘Let Your Sins Be Strong, from ‘The Wittenberg Project;’ ‘The Wartburg Segment’, translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404))
1. “Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294).
“To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!” - “If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs” (ref. Erlangen Vol 24, Pg. 294
3. “His (Judas) will was the work of God; God by His almighty power moved his will as He does all that is in this world.” (ref. De servo Arbitrio, against man’s free will).
2. “Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes.” (ref. J. Dollinger, La Reforme et les resultants qu’elle a produits. (Trans. E. Perrot, Paris, Gaume, 1848-49), Vol III, pg. 248).
“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham” (ref. Grisar, “Luther”, Vol. V. pg. 413).
“The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.” (ref. Weimar, Vol. 53, Pg. 502).
How many of these quotes do you also agree with? These are just a few, I can share more if you like; in the end is just like I said before even the most wicked can see the truth before they die…. On his way to hell Luther said:
“reformation was a mistake”
-Luther
Cameron, as a Latina Catholic follower of yours, even if you convert or not, your humility is admirable. Praise God for giving you such graces. I’ll pray our Lord He guides you where He wants you.
What does being Latina have anything to do with your faith?
don't convert, follow Jesus
Nice comment. Cameron is a very humble guy. I’ll pray for him too, as well as for James White,
@@andys3035 I wanted to let Cameron know that people outside the US follow him. God bless you
@@davidresendiz7989 by converting he follows Jesus in Jesus' own church!
James has the difficulty of having logic on his side yet persuasion evades him because of his approach. He makes others feel small without even realizing it. He names some obscure work and asks if the other person has ever read it and considers their problem one of ignorance. I appreciate James' ministry and see much to commend it. That said, for someone with his intellectual background and rhetorical sophistication, I am continually grieved with his utter lack of awareness for how he comes across. I am not convinced at all of the Catholic argument for the papacy (and hence many other things), but I hope I am always gracious and humble in my discussions with Catholics.
Bart Ehrman did that to James White during their debate, too. He kept asking James if he was familiar with the work of various textual critics, and James didn't know any of them.
Well said and me too
I have a lot of appreciation for Dr White and his knowledge, but this comment is right on the mark. I agree with everything Dr White said in this conversation, but he needs to show down a bit and even more importantly, let his guest speak once and awhile. Cameron you acted with great humility despite not being able to speak much and on several occasions not finish his thought. That is a very respectable trait. I do believe Dr White acted the way he did because he is truly worried about your eternal destination and not because he wanted to show how much facts he knows. That said, he could definitely learn some humility and you were a great example.
@@retrograd332 come home my brothers
Agreed. He definitely could use some more humility. That being said, Martin Chemnitz and John Jewel are very basic Protestant-era refutations of Roman Catholicism, and John Calvin's exchange with Sadoleto is what I would consider an entry level work when studying Protestantism vs Romanism. I think White acted pridefully, but I don't think he was wrong to be shocked that Cameron hasn't engaged with this material. He just could have handled himself better. Cameron hasn't engaged with basic historical writings for the Protestant position, it shows in his videos, and I'm glad White called him out on it.
Wow. looking at the comments it appears that Capturing Christianity audience is just catholics now haha.
Thought some good points were made. James White always seems to rub me the wrong way though. Less of a dialogue more of a rant.
There has probably been a serious influx of followers from Trent Horn, Pints With Aquinas, and other Catholic apologists who are really hoping for Cameron to convert.
Unfortunately there are a lot more anti-Protestant apologists on TH-cam than anti-Catholic ones. Most of the Protestants focus on evangelizing atheists, whereas the Catholics really focus on converting Protestants.
Yeah it's pretty cringe
It is very sad...And even worse, many of their comments are blatant lies such as "JW was fumbling to make a relevant point" and these type of comments are getting 15 -30 likes. It demonstrates that Catholics are employing hate and dishonesty.... Everyone knows JW made the relevant point and repeated over and over... If I didnt know better I'd think this comment section belonged to a Muslim channel given the blatant misrepresentation and extreme ignorance displayed here.
Same. I’ve never listened to him…he seems gruff and a bit abrasive. Thought he kinda attacked Cameron
@YAJUN YUAN
Less than 1%. Way less than that. I am saying that as a former Roman Catholic, graduate from Catholic school, in a bigot Catholic country I have never met anyone who read it. Including my whole Roman Catholic family, friends and coworkers... 5% was VERY generous estimate on James' part, he just wanted to be nice I am pretty sure.
Keep digging, you’ll get there I promise. I converted to Catholicism 9 years ago. I have been many different denominations in my life. I am Catholic because of the Eucharist. I love Jesus and He led me to His Church. I love your humility and this James guy needs some. I truly feel sad for him. He doesn’t know what he’s missing 🙏🏻❤️
th-cam.com/video/WvFW0uQHKY8/w-d-xo.html
Research what the early church taught. Read John 6. I’m not here to convince, rather inform. The Holy Spirit can do that 🙏🏻❤️
@@amandapflanz1041
All believers have His presence already in and thru the HOLY SPIRIT, get it! God bless and hope this helps!
@@amandapflanz1041 th-cam.com/video/WvFW0uQHKY8/w-d-xo.html
@@amandapflanz1041 th-cam.com/video/aqdQ6_MAH2A/w-d-xo.html
Incredible humility showed by Cameron. Enjoy watching Dr. White's debates on Catholicism. They were what ultimately started to push me in a Catholic direction.😆
You must not have been listening lol
@@michaelmannucci8585 Or, like most reasonable people, Evan doesn't find White's arguments compelling.
I had the same experience, Evan. I reverted in 2020.
@@michaelmannucci8585 But don't you feel uneasy as a Christian that one side references people from 1500s to the 1600s as a way to prove "true" Christianity whilst the other one uses references from the first and second century? Regardless of the arguments made by those in 1500 it's still a millennium and half after Christ?
LOL you definitely weren't paying attention. There's no way to leave those debates thinking catholicism is a better option than when you went into them.
I’m Catholic & White is correct- to be a faithful Catholic, you have to accept all that church elevates to the level of dogma.
Yes it is true as Catholics we have to accept the dogmas of the Church. And if White just said as a Catholic you will have to accept the Church's dogmas then Cameron probably would have just said yes I know. but white makes it sound like once your Catholic everything is spelled out for you, as if there's no room for us to think anything through for ourselves. If this was the case I guess all of our theologians would be out of a job.
@@kylemek0 I mean, why pretend? You have room to think but you have way less room to think. The bodily assumption of mary is very hard to believe. It's very close to being told that 2 + 2 is 5. When you're being told that, yeah sure you have room to think but you still have to come round and think yourself into believing it. So you're being a bit misleading when you say theirs room to think. Under protestantism, yes you still have dogmas to believe but there are less of them and less pressure to believe exact semantic definitions of things so yeah there's more wiggle room to think freely though not entirely.
Jesus Christ accepts everything during His death. He is God and could have chosen how He would die.
@@kylemek0copium
@ManlyServant that's not copium. We're allowed to have our own interpretations as long as we don't contradict official church teaching and interpretations.
Dr White can sometimes be hard to listen to because of his attitude. But you have to recognize that he's a intelligent teacher. I really appreciated Cameron's humility throughout this conversation.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC I agree. I think Cam got some more food for thought in his journey.
There nothing intelligent about James white at all.
That poor soul follow calvinism evil religion but has the nerve to say Catholics r evil🤔 when he believes God predestined mothers to be raped
You should have seen the video where his sister conveted to catholicism..his facial annoyance was spongebob levels of expression lol
James raises some very valid points. However, he needs to really, radically have his heart softened and his ego reduced. His face constantly exudes arrogance and annoyance, and consequently it is very, VERY hard to listen to him.
Catholic here, I like Dr. White a lot, he's knowledgable, eloquent and a good agressive debater. Here he seems to know Cameron is on his way of joining the CC so I guess for Dr. W it's like a lost case, hence his annoyed and sort of condescending attitude. Content is important but form is as well, the way guys like Hann, Horn, Frad, etc. interact is very charitable and empathetic, almost devoided of that air of superiority not rare to find among reformed apologists, and that alone can go a loooong way.
This seems to be the chief criticism White gets: He knows what he's talking about, but he sounds mean, therefore, he's arrogant. There's seriously something wrong with peoples perception of "humility" being attached to some soft tone and epistemological uncertainty.
The word everyone's grasping for is "charitable". Cameron's not lacking for it. White sometimes comes across as having scratched the word out in his dictionary. It's off putting.
@@Cinnamonbuns13 it’s not just that he “sounds mean”, he constantly looks at people like they are stupid and have a horn growing out of their head.
@@mr.fordnite1909 That's what I thought too.
Perfect example of how to win an argument but lose the person. Cameron, you on the other hand showed great humility. God gives grace to the humble.
He didnt even win an argument, to think that you must not known history and Bible. Soon, Trent Horn and Reason and theology crew will rebute White for 1000time.
@@petars4444 I withdraw the part about winning, I just meant, even if you know more about a subject or at least have read more on the subject then this is clearly not how to have a disagreement. I was trying to give Cameron a compliment.
White is quite arrogant and I’m a fan of Matt Fradd so he kind of lost me after that comment. Cameron is a gentle sweet young man and continued prayers for his spiritual wisdom.
True. But humility also (ultimately at least) cannot ignore the ACTUAL facts or history or MANIFEST teachings of Scriptures. To be a UNDERSTANDING Catholic I contend you must ultimately do exactly that.
What Cameron is missing is that his probabilistic arguments-even where clearly sound and almost certainly correct, are IRRELEVANT to Rome’s self-proclaimed all knowing (on dogmatic issues) magisterium.
Vatican 2 in Lumen Gentium Para 16, teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)
"I'm saying no to a lot of stuff" Cameron's humility is unique, keep seeking the truth, God bless you.
I would say his HONESTY is unique. Fpr his humility to be unique in this case would require IMHO, after acknowledging not only not knowing but not even being aware of so many seemingly important documents and issues , to simply yield and saying "yes, you know what, I really don't know what I am talking about and I should know way more before I make such decisions and make them in a broadcasted way. I really have not looked into these in a balanced and through manner, my apologies to my viewers, I will try to do that now". He would probably say that IN PUBLIC, on YT" That would be unique. This is the issue of the relationship between YT channels and true seeking, the lines get really mixed up, I mean reeeaaally mixed up at what point I am going from making content and generating views to actual seeking? It is a lines that gets blurry inside the heart. But instead of that clear acknowledgment Cam tries to validate his methods and way to process it all. i understand everybody here is his YT subs ( I am one too) and this will be unpopular, I also understand JW at times, like this time, is not a particularly likable personality. I also don't like how attached to his own history he is, I believe it is important for any man to let go of his deeds of the past. But that does not mean that his appeal to "MORE DEPTH PLEASE" is wrong. I see comments about how "old" JW and his arguments are... well... THAT is the point folks. Innovation in christianity tends to be a particularly not good thing. The race for the pearl in the field is not an episode of Shark Tank where the new, more popular and that makes more money and views wins. It is seeking for truth which is only ONE truth. Regardless, yes, may God bless Cam in his walk, not because he is specially good, but because he, like all, need to grow in the knowledge of Jesus and be blessed by Him.
@@amauryft what an interesting comment, God bless you too
Unfortunately his ignorance is not unique. I’m surprised he posted this
@@jerryyoung6494 he is just searching and learning, he's not claiming to know everything and I highly doubt your super educated on every topic. Cut him some slack
He was using a bit of levity because it was quite obvious to anyone watching that he was out of his element. It was a defense mechanism and neither humble nor unique.
I followed James White a little as a Calvinist. I joined the Catholic Church this Easter after almost 5 years in RCIA and reading and debating etc. I feel amazing
you got that right
Watch Gavin ortlund (truth unites)
Welcome home to Rome. His net worth is $13 million so he does not care to convert. There is no money to be made in the Catholic Church so why not just bring out the past dirty laundry of the CC and support/promote division instead of unification John 17.
@@theknight8524 Protest/tants doesn't unite at all. That is a fact!
Feel amazing, even headed for hell?
James White's debate with Trent Horn is a little part of the reason I am Catholic today
Trent was great in that debate. James White's debates in the 90s looked good, but today people can actually quickly and easily debunk his arguments using internet research which they couldn't do in the 90s.
@@samruggiero1778 internet research = finding biased apologist sources to agree with whatever you are looking for. On either side. I think everyone on the internet needs to do some legitimate study of the church fathers and not just look to their side to reaffirm what they believe. Agree with his conclusions or not, White has put some serious study into church history, and dismissing the points he raises as "easily debunked with a Google search" assumes that Dr. White is unaware of/has not responded to these objections you can find from Catholic apologists. Which is not true, friend.
That debate also reassured my faith in Christ and the Catholic church! God Bless Trent and pray for James!
But Trent lost
@@nightshade99 it’s subjective. However, Gods truth always wins. His Church will always prevail.
James White is his own Pope.
There comes a point in a man’s journey of faith that at the end of the day he must trust, in faith, where the Lord is leading him. When I started my journey toward Catholicism, all the arguments and facts pointed toward Catholicism, but eventually I had to experience the faith for myself with faith, in faith. When I did that Catholicism bore witness to itself and completely sealed itself both objectively and subjectively to me. God bless you brother Cameron, prayers sent to our Lord for you. 🙏🏻
AMEN! I always tell people that the kind of faith that is required to be Catholic is EXACTLY the kind of faith that God asks of us. It is total abandonment. No more “We’ll *I* believe ….”, but instead “Lord, I trust you in this.”
Ditto
Yeah, being Catholic requires blind faith and a cult mentality.
Amen. Agreed.
Vatican 2 teaches that *you and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)
*But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)
Listening to James White only makes me thankful that I have found the Catholic faith. And I'm so happy to see you on this journey brother! 💗
Listening to James White makes me thankful I found the Christian faith
Vatican 2 teaches that *you and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)
*But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)
@@Wgaither1 as you keep on growing in the faith eventually Catholicism becomes the only way.
@@RedWolf5 Jesus is the only way
@@albusai You are correct that’s why he established only the Catholic Church and no other.
The Papacy is why I’m not a Catholic. Really good conversation, awesome watching your journey Cameron!
m.th-cam.com/video/WefaXKQYUv4/w-d-xo.html
Ryan, I am a Catholic Christian because of Jesus Christ, and The Church He built on Peter the rock, way before the new testament was ever written and that later determined the Canon! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
Sola Scriptura is why I'm not a Protestant anymore. I found that it was illogical, unhistorical and an incomplete theology. I found Catholicism to be the most complete, historic and logical form of Christianity from there. If the Papacy was somehow proved false to me I still couldn't be a Protestant as there are still options that make far more sense than Sola Scriptura.
Read book Pope Peter by Heschmeyer. If papacy is true, we should all be Catholic. Papacy is true.
@@FullMetalThomist what do you think about prima scriptura?
Highly recommend speaking to Michael Lofton from Reason & Theology, Cameron.
Even better have Cameron speak to Pope Francis. Love to know what Pope Francis really believes on Roman Catholicism
@@Wgaither1 🙁 Sigh. It would be better if he talked to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI instead. Pope Benedict is considered one of the most brilliant Catholic theologians today and maybe even of all time, right up there with Sts Robert Bellarmine and Alphonsus di Ligouri and Augustine. And a very holy man. God bless him. May God bless Pope Francis too.
Cameron seems like a nice, open minded guy. I hope he stays away from the Catholic Taliban who think they are the custodians of tradition. It was quite clever the way Pope Francis delt with that lot by taking away their favorite toy.
@@peaceandjoy2568 It would be best if he stayed away from anyone who to fits James White's definition of a Catholic. You know you're on the wrong path when your world view aligns better with a Calvinist than Pope Francis.
He should speaking with Brother Michael Dimond from Most Holy Family Monastery to becoming convinced of the Catholic faith. He will never look back.
As much as James is getting push back I think it’s important to remember that he’s been doing this for years. That doesn’t mean being puffed up or arrogant is good. It doesn’t make him better or greater than anybody in the body of Christ, but we have to recognize that James has studied and is well versed in these topics. I think he genuinely has a passion of trying to encourage the body to know who God is and church history, so we don’t get swept away by false doctrines or follow anything but God. We are so quick to throw stones let’s pray for our brothers and all continue to seek God. Great conversation Cameron!
I actually think James is concerned too for Cameron because he’s trying to show the inconsistencies and if he really understands what he would be accepting if he converts to Catholicism.
this was a refreshing dialogue that aired a lot of the reasons why people are protestant by conviction rather than tradition
Exactly. Follow the truth because it’s true, not because my family group up that way. That’s how I ended up reformed
@@dustinnyblom7835 precisely. Follow the truth to protestantism because catholicm is satanic
@@jaserader6107 exactly
One converts to the FULLNESS of TRUTH because one is led by the HOLY SPIRIT.
You got the meaning of the Word TRADITION wrong here! Tradition in our faith means it’s OLD from the beginning of its institution by Jesus Christ himself!
Think I’ll just wait for the Trent Horn response…
Bruh you read my mind. Wednesday’s are my favorite days anymore
James Muhammad White won't stand a chance debating Trent Horn!
@@metot1 I don’t know if the middle name is supposed to be a dig or not, but I agree? Horn is a really good apologist with a lot of philosophical rigor. Not that white isn’t rigorous but he’s certainly no Horn.
Trent Horn is a joke. He thinks CNN is a reputable source of news.
Think for yourself
No one strawmans Catholicism better than James White.
White never strawmans Catholicism. He simply knows it better than most Catholics, which is why Catholics ignore their own history and choose to remain under the yoke of Rome, much like those Israelites who wanted to remain in Egypt.
Very true! Also Dr. Robert Jeffress of First Baptist church in dallas.
@@FrankGrauJr James White not only strawman's Catholicism, but clearly knows better. Which makes it even worse. He knows Catholics don't teach have of what he says they do.
@@AveChristusRex Or, far more probable, he knows catholic history better than those catholics who mistakenly believe he's knocking down straw men. And it's rather conspicuous that catholic apologists simply engage in ad hominem attacks against White without ever rationally dealing with the substantive content of his arguments and evidence.
@@FrankGrauJr That's ridiculous, why would you assume Catholic apologists know more about Catholicism than specifically anticatholic apologists? White knows Catholics don't think Jesus is being 'recrucified' etc. and all the standard tropes of the Protestant Revolt, and all the other implications he makes - that's why it's so much more of a sin for him to keep implying that to his ignorant (at least on these points - not calling them ignorant in general) audience.
He's more guilty of being disingenuousthan straight up lying - like choosing literally the most flowery prayers to Mary in all of human existence as proof we 'worship Mary' - while disregarding the doctrine of those who wrote and even explain them - Protestants audiences are neither equipped nor care enough to process such an onslaught of lie-by-omission+anticatholic-interpretation.
But he's still guilty of strawmen, and bad ones.
James White's sister has a great testimony of her conversion in one of the Surprised by Truth books. She lays out a lot of reasons why James is so anti-Catholic and she actually became Catholic! It's a very good read.
She was also interviewed on the Coming Home network. A video here on TH-cam.
Yet his interpretations cannot be refuted
@@nightshade99 yes they can, for it is his interpretation. Following him will lead many to Catholicism. Take his objections and inquire for yourself, then you'll find many of his views are baseless. I'm not surprised of his views though, and many denominations share the same, they tend to stick together against Catholics but tear each other apart into 1000's of slices of misunderstanding. His sister is knowledgeable enough to know the truth!
@@mohankang8062 If White's interpretation reflects scripture, it is the truth. Prove ONE person who would follow Catholicism once exposed to RCC heresy. You have not proven ONE shred of evidence against James White other than you don't like what he has to say. In other words, prove that White speaks false....PROVE it.
James white gets refuted all the time on how to be Christian channel on TH-cam.
I’m surprised someone who has debated Catholics for so long still doesn’t know the nuance of papal infallibility as Catholics teach it. It’s not a good look to be using straw men for someone who claims to be so well read. I’m also disappointed Cameron didn’t correct him
@12345shushi well said
@12345shushi This is exactly the problem. Listening to non Catholics interpret it without knowing how it works results in this thought. Look up ex cathedra with this topic. That’s the only time the authority is considered infallible
@12345shushi Blindly follow the popes is definitely not how we work. We willingly submit ourselves yes. But not everything a pope says is true or prudent. The person who is the pope is not infallible.
Your Pope is not infallible even if he speaks ex-cathedra. That's simply a delusion on your part.
Vatican 2 teaches that *you and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)
*But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)
@@abelj5145 how does that make any sense he’s called the pope. Isn’t the pope infailable
Cameron, I’m catholic and have been watching you for a while now. I just want to say your character shined through in this video. He was passive aggressive to let you know that you and your channel are unimportant and implied you were unstudied. He gave you almost no time to talk or discuss. He just ran over you, throwing out all of his accolades. It was hard to watch. I just wanted to call him out on his pride. Thank you for being kind, and like Christ even when you weren’t respected.
How did you get any of that? Dr. White was very friendly and he was there to teach the host. That was the point of the conversation.
Your comment is childish.
@@Nolongeraslave I disagree, but thanks for the feedback .
@@katiehendricks6719
If you scroll through the comments, the dislike expressed by Catholics towards James White is astounding! I know where this comes from, long before this young man. But to judge him even when anyone can hear and see him talking and present him as you have done is simply unfair! Behind this all, I would guess that you are all nervous that he is talking to "your convert to be" and these type of comments are to muddy the waters~ it's so unchristian!
@@Nolongeraslave I can see how that may come across in my comment. I should have explained. I have listened to James White for a long time. I am recently a catholic. I was a reformed Baptist and very much was in line with James White’s theology before becoming catholic. I was excited about this interview. I hoped that it would be cordial and informative. Even before becoming Catholic I was always embarrassed by the way that Dr. White interacted with people. He is very knowledgeable. Although I disagree with his theology. I wish he was not rude and condescending.
Cameron this debate / discussion is good for you. It will sharpen your skills and refine your walk toward Catholicism.
It could. If he doesn't belong to Jesus, then he will go to Catholicism.
@@luboshcamber1992 Jesus Body = Catholic Church
@@Jimmycrdns Stop conflating holy orthodoxy with papal protestantism
@@Christian_Maoist. what out yall, we have the Muslim here telling Christians how to be Christians…..:
@@Jimmycrdns I'm Christian, it's a troll username when I was arguing with some anti Muslim Evangelicals
I seem to agree with James on a lot of things.. Will be checking him out for sure!! Thanks Cam!!
Have you been living under a rock?
Cameron's humility stands in stark contrast to James's self-promotion, aggrandisement and attempts to dominate the dialogue from the outset. I think we need to take on the mind of Christ to discern how to proceed. As Newman says, to be deeply immersed in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
Started by saying something about humility, ended by a with a triumphalistic by-line that strawman's protestants.. 😉
James White made me Catholic. He's the reformed pope - whether he knows it or not, the spiritual father of the reformed baptists
Hahaha
@LuthAMF he sure acts like he does
@LuthAMF dude, read the thread, "he acts" like he's the ultimate authority for the reformed - aka the pope for the reformed baptists. Only James White knows what the Bible and church documents say (taken out of context of course)
@LuthAMF I stopped drinking White's Kool-aid, and became aware of the Church that Jesus built - the universal church
Also as catholics we have a rich field of theologians and saints to draw from. I feel like James White is just a meh Dr who stands out in a field of mediocre level theologians for the reformed.
I am not a fan of Dr. White’s delivery or tone, but I think it should be noted that he has been publicly defending against and/or countering the same arguments for 30+ years. That’s bound to make anyone a little irritable. Also, that’s probably why he keeps making reference to times in the past when/where he addressed an issue instead of rehashing the same stuff again and again. It seems, at different times over the last 30 years, he has been the only Protestant willing to engage the issues. There also seems to be far more Roman Catholic and far fewer Protestants dealing with ecumenical issues and engagements even today. I can see how that could get exhausting as each new generation thinks they have something new only to re-present the same arguments presented during the reformation even if they are just repackaged.
All that said, I do wish he would work on being more gentle in his engagements… listen more, etc. I think we will be held just as accountable for how we teach as what we teach.
Exactly this! I couldn't have said or explained this any better.
I was really blessed by this conversation....Dr White was very insightful and I learned a lot. Appreciate your humility to learn new issues. God bless you sir
Dr white is dusty
Just try to apply White's logic to anything else, it never holds up
I'm interested why you thought Dr White was insightful?
I tend to get the opposite from Dr White. He is an expert at mental gymnastics, I'll give him that. He's incredibly arrogant, boastful and angry. I find Cameron to be a breath of fresh air, he is incredibly humble and acknowledges his shortcomings. He looks for the truth no matter where it leads. These are very admirable qualities that I think Dr White should look to adopt.
@G P
Maybe try to listen to what he was saying? 🤔🥳
This is really hard to watch. Dr White is incredibly arrogant, angry and boastful. I've watched about a third of the video and he is not kind or charitable to Cameron in anyway. He still doesn't seem to understand Catholic positions and he talks down to Cameron about not reading books approved by his own personal authority. Man...I feel so sad for this guy.
Cameron, you are awesome. You handle yourself like a true follower of Christ. Your humility and search for the truth is very admirable. You never snapped back at Dr White and respected him even in the face of his anger and arrogance. Love your channel and it's diverse guests, peace be with you my friend.
@Thoska Brah I thought it was pretty bad from Dr White and think summary from @Jake Hargus was fair
Imagine the church having a messy tumultuous history with sinful men in its 2000 years …much before the internet, printing press, television etc.
IF Dr white was alive before Christ….he would have been out there telling all the Jews that they and their religious leaders were not the real “church” of God because……you know they were “messy” and “ sinful” and there were some issues with their claims of a priestly line of succession etc. etc. 😆
Sounds exactly like what a prophet would do?
Cameron really needs to get Orthodox Apologists on his channel and hear their reasons why the entire Eastern Church split with the West over the papacy. Even though I am a Protestant, and disagree with the EO's on a lot of things, they definitely have a lot to contribute when it comes to the history around the whole rise of the papacy, etc.
You need this video th-cam.com/video/_35whxfeY2I/w-d-xo.html
@Duane My suggestion would be Seraphim Hamilton (Kabane)
@Duane Perhaps Fr. Josiah Trenham? I've seen him on a number channels and vids, although he does come across less Ecumenically than I'd like to see.
They did not split over the papacy and 2, there are many eastern Catholics
He’s definitely running from Jay Dyer
Cameron needs to understand why he is Protestant not just what the differences are between Catholicism and Protestants,. Like Dr White says he needs to be a Protestant of conviction that is a big difference.
He is Protestant because he hasn't converted to Catholicism yet.
Everything James White says is in a Double Predestination mindset - black or white, cold or hot, damned or saved; always trusting in your own intellect and in yourself instead of trusting in Jesus' good works as practiced in the Catholic Church through the Liturgy & Sacraments.
Truly admire the work your doing Cameron in seeking the truth... absolutely loves when you ask to bring in the goat in apologetics Mr. Akin 👍👍 God bless you my friend
You should watch James White’s sister’s conversion story to Catholicism. She did an episode of the Journey Home.
This is fake news
What’s is her name?
@@miranda54084 patty bond
@AbrahamMiranda Mr White’s sister’s name is Patty Bonds. Apparently her conversion into the Catholic faith has given him even more reason to despise the Catholic Church
Please pray for him
@@abandonrz thanks 🙏
Welcome home, Cameron! I knew that Truth will lead you home to the Catholic Church. Congratulations.
Love ya Dr. White. And your teachings. Press on brother.
James White has such a poor grasp on Catholicism that he should really stick to defending his own belief systems instead of misreading the Catholic church.
So what did he get wrong on Roman Catholicism?
@@Wgaither1 that's what I want to know.
I've read the Vatican anathemas long ago, what is there to misunderstand? Did Rome change its collective mind?
I don't believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth.
I don't believe the Immaculate Conception of Mary is true nor about her sinless life or Bodily Assumption into Heaven and I certainly do not believe the Rosary, nor pray to her. I only pray to God through Christ Who died for my sins and was raised for my justification. Because of that I think Purgatory is a manmade teaching.
I could go on, but according to Rome I'm already accursed or anathema. Am I mistaken, did I misread the Council of Trent or Vatican One and Two?
Exactly. I am a Catholic and I am a mere lay person. I donot have a degree nor have I read all the encyclicals but I have been catechised well at home and at school so I know the Catholic Faith and Traditional Catholic teachings. As I listen to James White make pronouncements on "the Babylonian captivity" I donot think he is correct.
Also, the Pope is infallible only "ex cathedra" and never in his off the cuff comments nor even his own personal opinion. Some popes were modernists who didn't believe all the official teachings of the Church but the Holy Spirit never permitted that they declare any heretical pronouncements "ex cathedra" which would bind the faithful to believe. These Protestant criticisms are becoming old and tired and can be put to rest by a good explanation from a conservative Catholic theologian who knows the Faith. Please ask or read Pope Emetitus Benedict XVI. He would have all the answers to any Protestant question. Donot be deceived by the many liberal Catholics. They cherry pick the teachings they want to believe such as "God is love." Then reject the hard teachings such as "Abortion is a grave sin," and "outside of Christ there is no salvation." We all know why. But their ideas are not the Catholic Faith.
@@peaceandjoy2568 Thank you, that was beautiful. I don’t have the temperament or expertise to respond to reply to individual jabs especially when you know they are looking to take you in circles but you said it perfectly.
The amount of false info, misinformation and distortions James white produces when talking about Catholicism is shocking to say the least. It’s just mindboggling that White, despite supposedly dealing with such topics for decades, is repeating the same errors and false claims over and over...smh
Ps: he sure likes to hear himself talk 😅
Such as?
Any example of misinformation? I'm curious
@@franciscor.m.8003 There are many, many egregious misunderstandings and distortions that James White expressed in the conversation, but a glaring example is his... unique interpretation of Canon 6 at Nicaea. It's surprising, and frankly laughable, that he doesn't understand how this doesn't contradict the primacy of the Bishop of Rome given that there are patriarchs of eastern Catholic churches today who have jurisdictions that extend beyond their own diocese. This is Catholic ecclesiology 101, and yet he thinks he's scoring points against the Papacy.
@@fungusbeef The issue of canon 6 is not primacy but jurisdiction. These are separate issues. See also Council of Chalcedon canon 28. With respect.
@@darewan8233 That was exactly my point. Canon 6 is referring to jurisdiction, but James White says that Canon 6 proves against the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. This is absurd, since there are -- today -- bishops within the Catholic Church whose jurisdiction extends beyond their diocese. There is nothing about Canon 6 that is in any way incompatible with the modern Catholic Church.
It’s interesting to see the number of comments regarding everything but the actual content of the discussion.
“White looks mean” is not a coherent response to anything.
I feel like James White is more angry that anything. He never convinces me of anything but his bad attitude. It speaks louder than what hes saying
James White seems to dismiss "the Matt guy" and the Roman Catholic Church. Without grace it may be impossible for him to see that the hated Roman Catholic Church just happens to be the one Church that Christ built and therefore has His authority and the fullness of the Truth. His pride and disdain will make it very difficult. May God bless him.
@Peace and Joy
Hardly. James doe not hate RCC but what it did and keeps doing by keeping people away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Peter has bever been to Rome, and there your house of cards falls apart right at the beginning. Study the history. I did my research thoroughly as a former Roman Catholic and wanna be priest. It is a lie, you "true church" is built on. Now you know.
@Lubosh Camber God only knows your heart and why you fell away from His church. I pray that in your search for the Truth the Holy Spirit will guild you to all truth. Life in Christ is a life long journey. Never stop searching. Never settle. Be blessed.
@@mlaura0721
Thank you. I was once like you. Blind, deceived, attending the masses daily, saying mantras of Rosary... That's what it is. Mantras. Just like you, I did not believe that Jesus did it all perfectly, I was spitting to His holy face by another mass attendance where we sacrificed Him again. I was stealing from Him ascribing His merits to His mother - or caricature of her painted to me by Roman institution. I was working so hard telling Jesus He is not enough. But I had the only true "church". Yes, that church that falsified Constantine donations, that very church that killed more people believing in Jesus Christ than Islam, lied about and keeps lying about that Peter was bishop in Rome for 25 years... which they have never been able to prove. I had exactly that "true church" which proudly calls itself Roman Catholic Church. Praying to Mary, worshipping Mary, bowing down to statues, going to pilgrimages, fasting on Fridays - just like you do Mary. Just like you, blaspheming God daily. You know, if you say never stop seeking. I don't need to keep seeking. I was found by Jesus. He forgave me, He gave me the new heart, love for Him, He brought me out of my sins, changed looser to a new person and saved me from the wrath of God I completely deserved! I was raised Catholic, was an altar boy, graduated on Catholic school, wanted to be a priest. I can beat you to the ground by quoting the Catechism of RCC. Till this day I can do that. I am sorry Mary. You are tragically deceived. And you love your deception. Because you are not interested in the Truth. May the Lord you don't know, and don't want to know have mercy on you.
@@luboshcamber1992 Amen, brother
@@luboshcamber1992 curious what research you did and can you provide us with the sources. Thanks
Cameron you have a great channel and it’s helped a lot of people. James White is a little rude to be telling you how you should be running your channel when you’ve helped grow so many peoples interest.
Agree. Cameron your humility is admirable.
James is just being james, i love them both, the way the lord used them is amazing in their own ways. praise Jesus
When I was Protestant I loved all the SOLAS because it took man out of the picture. The Reformation removed man from God’s plan of salvation. It took a long time for me to realize that the Lord has man, even with all his short comings and corrupt heart, intricately involved. This theme is saturated from Genesis thru Revelation.
Amen! Facts!... You seem not to realize that this very fact argues directly AGAINST the RCC 😂
@@Ttcopp12rt I'm curious. What's your reasoning behind saying that the og comment goes against the Catholic Church.
I'm protestant, and I recognize man's involvement. 🤔
@@Ttcopp12rt Lol. Your comment has not logic
Calvinism destroys man's involvement I cannot deny. Mankind must respond freely and faithfully to God to be saved.
Catholicism on the other hand is no better than the Pharisees of Jesus' day or the Galatians who placed another Scripture above what was given to the Apostles to God to write down and pass to the Saints.
Just started watching this and I can tell it's gonna be great. Thanks again Cameron. What you do is invaluable 👍🏼
I find it Interesting after watching many of the interviews/videos/debates on your channel and many Catholic ones… I am not trying to be biased but the humility and charity of the Catholic community really shows. James White screams arrogance and self righteousness. I was amazed throughout the video how he didn’t stop talking about how he was so great and better. Keep finding your way home Cameron. 🙏🏽
To be fair, Gavin Ortlund shows great humility and charity, also. He seems like a very genuine person.
@Angelica Valenzuela
It is because you are not seeking the Truth of the Scriptures and glory of God, but glory of the people you like.... James is one of the most gracious people I have ever seen. And one of the best theologians out there - said even by most famous Catholic apologists out there. 😉
I was born and raised as a Catholic in a fanatical Catholic family and in a bigot Catholic country. Stop fooling yourself. Those "nice" guys are nice, because they're telling you what you want to hear. They are telling lies, but you do not care about the truth. You just want to hear your truth confirmed...
@@luboshcamber1992 this tone you give is exactly the point of what I mentioned about Dr. White. You are assuming all of that based on my comment. You know nothing about my journey or what I have lived or looked into myself. My faith isn’t based on who I like to listen to the most on these platforms but rather what has survived for over 2000 years and what Christ himself left for us when he walked this earth. He left a church and that’s what I will continue to follow. We believe in one Holy, Catholic, Apostolic church …
I hope one day you find your way back as I did.
@@Matt-ck3pp I agree with that. I was surprised how kind Gavin was in many of his dialogues.
James here is disgusting how arrogant and condescending he is
To be fair - I think that is just James White.
I really dislike the guy, and I don’t understand the following he has. I have never seen the fruits of the spirit from him.
His tone, his words, his insinuations.
They have always turned me off.
As an aside, I’m sadden that he is the one that has so much content on the trinity and debating modern day sabellianism.
- Wish we had a better source for it.
James white is such a blessing. He’s the reason I’m still and will remain a Protestant! I love his arguments especially the ones on sola scriptura. They’re the most compelling on the difference between Roman Catholic’s and Protestant’s. I’d much rather have my ultimate authority in God’s word than on mere man made tradition. I pray that one day Catholics and Protestants can hold hands and agree on this. Until that day alas
The Catholic Church is the one true church and Protestantism is a false man-made tradition.
how do you define "mere man made tradition"? St Paul tells us to pass on tradition both oral and written. The oral traditions of the Church is just as much tradition as the Bible is.
Sola scriptura is a man made tradition. The Septuagint is the historically accurate bible of Christians, the Masoretic Text, is merely a Jewish alteration.
@@OniLeafNin amen
Here's the issue. The reason you have The Bible is because of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church decided which books were inspired by God. So you wouldn't even have your sole authority if not for the Church. Jesus chose His Apostles and Peter as the Rock.... their successors have this authority from Jesus Himself.
James back in my day white
I enjoyed this…..I personally have been on a journey to learn early Church practices.
Not overlooking Luther, Calvin, or the Papacy….. I WANT TO KNOW HOW the early Church walked out their faith once the chosen Apostles of Christ were gone. Several reasons for my own understanding but also because I have been asked……”so they couldn’t get along? Why so many denominations? From herecy?” You can’t just say it’s complicated. The early Church of Christ the Lord were of one mind and united. Admonishing, forgiving one another, and practicing humility, self control, and looking for the Lord’s return. The “world” hated them without legitimate cause. We should be asking when and why changes were made. Make Christ our King and do what pleases The King.
I enjoyed this and I understand it’s a ministry. Important as any as long as we have love for each other. People rightly want to know where all this comes from. I’m thankful for the watchmen. We all will give account.
@12345shushi thank you I’ll check it out
I'd suggest Orthodoxy if you want the fullest expression of a New Testament, post-Apostolic church
Read the apostolic fathers, most wrote between 90AD-150AD, they were the 2nd generation of the church.
St ignatius
Clement of Rome
Justin Martyr
Iraneaus
Thank you for this, very informative! This needs to be a series, there's more that could've been discussed. At least a part 2.
That was a great conversation. Glad that you had it because Dr. James White is a great source/wealth of knowledge about this topic and as well as many more. I learned some new things myself that help continue to solidify my Protestant faith.
Lol
Brother, James White knows very little about Catholicism. He’s misleading people.
@@joecardone4887 you Catholics answer just like the muslims a lot of the time. You make these general accusations at more knowledgeable people, such as Dr white, then utterly fail to point out examples of what you’re accusing the individual of.
@@joecardone4887 Since you seem so confident in your statement/assessment about Dr. James White then PROVE IT!!! Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. Be a man , step up to the plate and take everything that Dr. James White said to Cameron in their conversation and PROVE with FACTS that Dr. James White is misleading people. BUT, I am sure that you will not and instead redirect the challenge to something else. Because that is what ultracrepidarians typically do.
@@joecardone4887 Secondly, you obviously have never listened to/watched any of Dr. James Whites many debates against Roman Catholics. Because he clearly won every single one of those debates.
Cameron, you showed such grace. I’m thankful you are going through this journey so publicly. I too am trying to discern Catholicism and it’s comforting to know others are rowing this boat with me. You are an inspiration and encouragement to many. Gosh bless you and your ministry and may we both find our way home, no matter what Christian church it is.
Vatican 2 teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)
*But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God* , who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. *Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life* . (Vatican II, Lumen Gentium Para 16)
Vatican 2 in Lumen Gentium Para 16, teaches that *Christians and Muslims worship the same God* , and a "good" Muslim or even Atheist can be saved. So what's the point of becoming a Romanist? :)
@@solacanonicascriptura6139 The sacraments is what’s missing. The Divine holy presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and the forgiveness of sins through confession. God bless you
@@mari7775 Francis, Robert Barron and the Rev Arsenault disagree with you teaching even a "good" Atheist can be saved. :)
*Pope Francis* : 254. *Non-Christians, by God’s gracious initiative, when they are faithful to their own consciences, can live “justified by the grace of God* ”,[199] and thus be “associated to the paschal mystery of Jesus Christ”.[200] But due to the sacramental dimension of sanctifying grace, God’s working in them tends to produce signs and rites, sacred expressions which in turn bring others to a communitarian experience of journeying towards God.[201] While these lack the meaning and efficacy of the sacraments instituted by Christ, they can be channels which the Holy Spirit raises up in order to liberate non-Christians from atheistic immanentism or from purely individual religious experiences. The same Spirit everywhere brings forth various forms of practical wisdom which help people to bear suffering and to live in greater peace and harmony. As Christians, we can also benefit from these treasures built up over many centuries, which can help us better to live our own beliefs. APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION,EVANGELII GAUDIUM OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS TO THE BISHOPS, CLERGY, CONSECRATED PERSONS AND THE LAY FAITHFUL ON THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL IN TODAY’S WORLD
*Bishop Robert Barron* : No [i.e., Ben is not “basically screwed”]. The Catholic view, go back to the Second Vatican Council, says it very clearly. Christ is the privileged route to salvation: “For God so loved the world he gave His only Son that we might find eternal life.” So, that’s the privileged route. However, *Vatican II clearly teaches that someone outside the explicit Christian faith can be saved [cf. Lumen Gentium 16]* . Now, they’re saved through the grace of Christ, indirectly received. So the grace is coming from Christ. But it might be received according to your conscience. So, if you’re following your conscience sincerely, or in your case, you’re following the commandments of the Law sincerely, yeah, you can be saved. Now, that doesn’t conduce to a complete relativism. I mean we [Catholics] still would say the privileged route and the route that God has offered to humanity is the route of his Son. But you [a non-Christian] can be saved. Even Vatican II says *an atheist of good will can be saved in following his conscience* . John Henry Newman said the conscience is the “aboriginal vicar of Christ in the soul.” It’s a very interesting characterization, that [the conscience] is in fact the voice of Christ. If he’s the logos made flesh, if he’s the divine mind or reason made flesh, then when I follow my conscience, I’m following him whether I know it explicitly or not. So, *even the atheist, Vatican II teaches, of good will, can be saved* .
*Father Joseph Arsenault, SSA* , archdiocesan consultant for ecumenical & interreligious affairs, explains……… Q: What does the Catholic Church teach today about faithful Protestants, Jews or non-Christians entering the kingdom of heaven?A: “We teach that *it’s a possibility for everyone to enter heaven if their life conforms to the ways of the Lord* ,” said Father Joseph.“They *may not know or acknowledge Jesus,” he added, “but if they have an openness to striving to live a good and godly life, then, doing that, they are pleasing to the Lord* .”
It is good to search out the scriptures for the truth, as St. Paul praised the Bereans for doing so with his own words, however you should become grounded in something and not be open to everything to be tossed about to and fro on every doctrine. It all boils down to whether you trust in Scripture alone as the only authority for salvation, or whether it is scripture plus tradition etc. The Bible is clear on salvation, and the council of Trent denied the Gospel itself by anathematising anyone who believed in complete justification through faith alone in Christ apart from works. *"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose."* -Galatians 2:21
Love Dr James White, my family is full of Catolicos no surprisingly we are Salvadoreños, and Dr White has been very helpful when I engage with them. Even though I don’t agree with Dr White in a couple things, since I’m Reformed as in the line of the late Dr R.C. Sproul. Que en el nuestro Señor Jesus Cristo descanse. Protestantism is growing in Latino America, Gods is faithful, many former Catholics are getting out. It’s the opposite in nation like The United States, where a lot of truth was revealed in the past, many here are going for Catholicism I knew a former pastor in Washington named Jason Stellman who became sadly a Roman Catholic. Pray for him
Well this was interesting but now that we know the Mr. White’s objections, a good debrief would be awesome. Lots of things said I feel we’re not really expanded upon enough and the conversation was kind of all over the place. I feel like observations from the outside can sometimes can be misinterpretations because of not knowing the full truth. Thank you Cameron for having this conversation with Mr. White and God bless you.
While I enjoyed Cam's talks with Gavin Ortlund and feel Gavin did a good job for protestantism, I wish he would talk with Jordan Cooper as well. He's a Lutheran and so as a Presbyterian I have issues with some of his views, I have similar disagreements with Ortlund as a baptist. Maybe he could have Carl Truman on concerning the Catholic protestant debate, Truman is a good Presbyterian who would have good insights here. Of all people though James White is not the guy.
He's just too rambling and all over the place in his points, it's very hard to track and he doesn't really interact with Cameron. For example Cameron asks what whites objection to his bayesian analysis is, and doesn't get a straight answer. It was the same thing when Cameron was asking why the probability for catholicism would have to jump from the 90's to 100% (perfect certainty) if he accepted the papacy, and white didn't really give a good answer, he just re-asserted that it would. Honestly considering the way White engaged with Stratton (and Molinism as a whole) I doubt his philosophical acumen with things such as bayesian analysis.
Lastly I'd really like Cameron to have Tim McGrew back on to discuss the legitimacy/illegitimacy of his bayesian approach to the papacy.
James' point was that once you convert and accept the papacy, then arguments, evidence, opinion all become meaningless. You either believe what the church teaches or you are a heretic.
It seems to me that James White is absolutely correct in pointing out that once someone accepts Papal Infallibility to be true, it’s only logical and even necessary that that person would accept all the other Catholic dogmas to be true. If Papal Infallibility is not true, the whole structure falls apart.
That's true, but JW was actually trying to make a stronger (and false) claim. He said that if you came to accept papal infallibility (let's call it I for short), that should also boost your a-posteriori confidence in it (and every other dogma) to 100%, which is simply a non sequitur.
One could have a, say, 95% confidence that I is true, and all that would do is lower-bound your confidence in all other Catholic dogmas at 95% as well. Indeed, if X is any dogma, since I => X (or in other words P(X|I) = 100%), this means
P(X) = P(X|I)P(I) + P(X|~I)P(~I) >= P(X|I)P(I) = 95%.
It seems to me that JW is tacitly assuming that "accepting X as one's belief" means lending 100% credence to X, but that is obviously not how epistemology works.
I doubt you even know what it means.
Catholicism adds to the gospel. They add dogmas that one must believe in order to be in a state of grace. Including the immaculate conception, papal infallibility, etc. This is adding to the gospel of grace. Salvation is by grace through faith. One enters a state of grace by repenting of their sins, believing on Jesus and being baptized(washing of regeneration). Faith and repentance is what keeps one in a state of grace, not holding to extra biblical dogmas like the immaculate conception or papal infallibility.
💯
"We're reinventing the wheel over and over again". This is the biggest issue with Protestantism today. I am a Protestant. I never knew anything about Church History growing up. I never knew there is an unbroken line of writings by Church Fathers from the time of Christ to today.
Never heard of Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Chrysostom, Augustine, Jerome.
Nothing.
We were too busy drinking coffee and learning how to live our best lives now.
There's no roots and times of testing are coming and many are falling away.
The best quotes on the internet about James white are “James white made me Catholic” lol
I wish it was longer. Definitely want to see more conversations between you two and would love to see you speak with Douglas Wilson and Voddie Baucham.
No! They are both deplorable
That sounds like a great idea!
James White seems to think the Pope being infallible means everything he says is infallible or that he’s going to be holy.
That does seem to be what he thinks
Hi Cameron, please speak to Michael Lofton from Reason & Theology. God bless.
Please think for yourself and I’m sure Cameron will do the same.
@@willire8811 I have. Cameron, please speak to Michael Lofton. God Bless.
@@willire8811 Lol..what a comment
@Will Ire We do that in all aspects in life. We learn from each other to help us discern what to affirm or deny, what to follow or not to follow. We learn from teachers, from professors, from preachers, from books written by others, from people we meet from day to day, and so on, and we build upon them. That doesn’t mean we’re not thinking for ourselves. Lofton is brilliant guy. Whether you agree with him or not, I’m sure many of us could learn something from him. At the very least, his views are worth examining.
Hi Mister Bertuzzi,
If you read this, James white offered to continue these dialogues and discussions with you, please suggest to him the following:
To continue a video discussion AND you also invite Jimmy Akin or Trent Horn. So the three of you can engage whites claims and we will see how reasonable and open minded White will remain, if and when he stands corrected.
Cameron, I am sure White will refuse the offer of having a discussion with you and Jimmy akin/ Trent Horn, he feels confident when he knows his „opponent“ can’t engage some of his claims, cause the person didn’t study the point in question.
Im sure many people would like to see exactly this format as I described. And if it’s only about truth, hey I am sure James white will welcome the idea of having somebody like akin or Horn to Chime in and give words of Clarification or refutation. Right? Right?? 😉😉😉
Let us know if he agrees and is down with that suggestion. I doubt it 😅🤦♀️
It's noticeable that James only quotes from early Church Fathers writings that seems to support his position and leaves most things that doesn't. He really can't hide his despise of the name "Catholic" and what It stands for. I understand why he stands where he stand and the self-aggrandizement.
James sounds like he is clinging to doubting his own beliefs. He did about 90% of the talking here and was fumbling to make a relevant point the entire time. Cameron asked simple questions that threw James off every time Cameron spoke.
I’m guessing you don’t read the Bible.. Things you won’t find in the Bible.. praying to statues, praying to saint’s or mary, the pope or anyone other church leaders being a mediator between God and man.. enough said..
Your comment is very troubling. Either you're 12-13 years old, youre a Muhammadan, you are extremely ignorant, or you are a unashamedly liar. Which one is it?... Im not trying ro be mean but 3 times JW explicitly accentuated the problem/main argument and yet you have the audacity to say that "he was fumbling to make a relevant point"???🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦....James made the relevant point THREE TIMES in this discussion. Only a fool can say what you did because of the hate in your heart that has you compromising honesty for deception. The Lord Jesus rebuke you!
@@jayrocky9067 Where in the bible does it teach sola scriptura or sola fide?
@@jayrocky9067 Acts Chapter 1 15-26. Peter as leader of the Apostles declares that "May Another Take his office". Then the council decided on Barsabbas and Matthias and then the lot fell upon Matthias. Peter was in charge of the replacement of Judas. I can understand Protestant objections but the Book of Titus pretty much settles the argument for me. St. Paul directs Titus to appoint Presbyters in every town of Crete, to refute deceivers including Jewish Christians, and to remain in Crete until Paul sends Artemas or Tychicus to Crete. Paul appointed Titus as Bishop of Crete (even though he doesn't use that term) and also told Titus that Paul would replace him later.
LOL... Cameron's a humbly fellow, but he was more like a wide-eye student.
Would love to see Jimmy Akin vs James White
Akin cleaned his clock back in the 90’s.
It was devastating.
I’m pretty sure it’s on TH-cam
there are at least 2: on Sola Scriptura (Pints with Aquinas) and on Predestination (catholic audio)...
Great dialogue. I’ve learnt a lot from White today and will research the resources he shared.
Dr white is very educated but can’t stay focused or on point. How kind and respectful his opponent. White is just hogging and interrupting this whole conversation and bragging himself up to show how smart he is. Would have liked to here more from his guest.
Seeing you and Dr. White talking like this is very really surreal to me. God bless you, Cam
Holy crap, I'm orthodox and James makes me wanna be catholic.
James makes me want to be Calvinist. It’s such a clean, stable
straight scriptural Narrow Path.
I appreciate all his knowledge
of both Scripture + Catholicism.
Good assertive approach.
Here for Truth, not for nice.
@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc
I got bad news. You're failing both.
@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc
I got bad news. You're failing both.
You have a lot of integrity Cameron for engaging this topic so seriously. The way you're handling the situation and your method and process for doing so is great it really helps to weed through the infinite comments and books and opinions.
James White is pretty good with rhetoric and is very confident in himself and his abilities however most of his arguments have been refuted very soundly by many former protestants who have consumed a lot of his material and then started investigating his various claims and arguments further regarding his opposition to the Catholic faith and become Catholic. That isn't proof that the Catholic church is necessarily true however it is something to keep in mind that so many well-intentioned men and women who professed the name of Christ and still do and have only gotten more serious and more holy about their faith found his critiques ultimately insubstantial.
Something you may find helpful is doing a systems analysis as well of especially the reformationist / calvinist position which is what James White interprets everything through and compare it to the Catholic faith. There's a lot of assumptions in Calvinism that make it untenable. The doctrine of total depravity is one as someone like James White would understand it, irresistible Grace is the other one, and the perseverance of the Saints as they understand it is another and their theory regarding the atonement of Christ and his sacrifice on the cross known as penal substitutionary atonement, PSA for short.
Praying for you.
Giving up Christ’s perfect sacrifice on my behalf for the hamster wheel of works & penance. Never sure of my salvation and resting in MY WORKS instead of Christ’s.
Think I’ll go with what my sufficient scriptures say, thanks.
Gabe, You make some good points.
I think the fact you turn it back on another position that James White has gotten wrong is a little silly.
Stick with his catholic arguments. Not other stuff
@@sarahd5341 You've missunderstood the Catholic faith.
@@joshs2986 White's main arguments against the Catholic Faith have to do with his presuppositions. It should not be granted that his assumptions are correct.
@@Silverhailo21 what in his Calvinism has anything to do with what he has said today?
It is probably James White’s reasoning against Catholicism that made his sister converts to Catholicism.
Reading this comment section, you would've thought that it was between an angry and an infant. Is white not an elder in the church, and a teaching elder, and apologist for decades? Does he not have something to say? Younger men should be quite and listen to older men, most importantly in this context. And lastly, these are two men, this is how men in the ought to speak, debate, and think critically to get to the truth. God has spoken, his grace is sufficient.
How White managed to quite literally fulfill almost every negative caricature of the 21st century Protestant in 1.5 hours is mind boggling…does he have no man to lovingly tell him, brother your narcism is pouring out of the screen 📺. His attitude and approach convicted me of my own sinfulness…wow. Forgive me for haughtiness pride and ego…forgive me Lord. Cam…great self control.
Facts not in evidence wow
His still bitter over his sister converting to catholicism...that has clouded his whole mind in his ministry.
@@ACF1901 I don’t think so but I appreciate you defying the church by your name no salvation outside the church when your church says that if you follow your religions teachings you can be saved
@@dustinnyblom7835 I don't care what you think, that's the reality. And I am not defying my church with my name, since its an infallible dogma of the church.
Infallible Council of Florence 1431-1435:
"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."
If Cameron hasn’t, I’d love to see him talk with Dr. Leighton Flowers.
"The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said. Here is a principle of logic that most men have no more sense than to adopt. I will illustrate it by an old apple 🍎 tree. Here jumps off a branch and says, I am the true tree, and you are corrupt. If the whole tree is corrupt, are not it's branches corrupt? If the Catholic religion is a false religion, how can any true religion come out of it? If the Catholic church is bad, how can any good thing come out of it? The character of the Old churches have always been slandered by all apostates since the world began. "
Joseph Smith
James White is an apostate by his own logic.
Hey Cameron, I have to say that I am proud of you. For a time I have been disturbed by some Christians that you have valued as great teacher, and was concerned that you were not open to correction, but your inviting James White and your willingness to hear what he says with humility, has caused me to change my view of you. You seem sincere and willing to learn and that is impressive. I do like much of your content and have learned from many of your videos.
Cameron, you need to discuss the same topic with Mike Winger. I feel his approach will match yours well, but bring some very valuable points to the table. If you're really open to hearing both sides, I would say Mike can present Protestant arguments in a way that is a good counterpoint to Matt Frad's.
The whole "No Bishop at the Council of Nicaea believed in Catholic doctrines" seems very impressive, until you realize that out of 318 bishops at Nicaea (coming all the way from Spain, from India and all corners of the world) we only have extant writings by 3 of them: Saint Eustathius of Antioch (only one book criticizing Origen's supposed Sabellianism), Saint Alexander of Alexandria (just two letter on the Arian controversy, and one homily on the Passion and Ressurrection) and Eusebius of Caesarea (voluminous works, but mostly historical writings). Curiously Eusebius does tell us that the Apostle Peter was the first Bishop of Rome, but I'm sure James would say he's too late to be reliable. If he's too late, then why bring it up the whole bishops of Nicaea bit, if you're just going to dismiss what they said? Also, he said none of them believed in the Assumption of Mary, which is a gigantic argument from silence, since we have no writings from 99.06% of them, and there's no writing of them denying the Assumption.
No one can prove historically if they believed or didn't believe the Assumption, so the point is moot.
P.S.: Before anyone brings Saint Athanasius, he was a deacon, not bishop at Nicaea. Just sticking to the arbitrary parameters that James set up
🤦YOU are the one making argument from silence - not the other way around. Let me educate you young man, in academia, the burden of the claim is on the claimant. Since you guys make the claim regarding the assumption of Mary (which is found nowhere taught in Scriprure) than the onus is on YOU to evidence your claim.... You are ignorantly arguing backwards, but nite that no one would deny the "assumption" if it wasnt alleged in the first place.
You guys are something else 🙄
@@Ttcopp12rt 🤦JAMES =is the one making argument from silence - not the other way around. Let me educate you old man, in academia, the burden of the claim is on the claimant. Since James made the claim that we can historically prove that no Bishop at Nicea believed the Assumption of Mary than the onus is on HIM to evidence his claim... No Catholic ever argued that we can historically prove that the Bishops at Nicea believed the Assumption of Mary. It's James who is making the opposite argument. You are ignorantly arguing backwards, but nice that no one would affirm the "assumption" if it wasnt denied in the first place.
You guys are something else 🙄
@@Ttcopp12rt and yet you Calvinists don't even have Bishops to begin with.
@@alphonsustheleast1537 LOL
@@Ttcopp12rt Perhaps you should try taking a class on logic before trying to "educate young men". That's not what an argument from silence is.
I'm as protestant as they come but I can recognize a terrible argument when I see one. Assigning the burden of proof is completely different from claiming someone is making an argument from silence.
Great conversation! Very loving, yet frank. I’m glad they got to the question of the blessed man at the end. Cameron, I hope you wrestle with this question above all others.
Yeah baby p. Romans 4:6-8 does not refute Catholcism. Try again next time. Cameron see what Aquinas says about the blessed man.
Its a pure red herring of a question…
How is it a red herring? Do we believe that our only basis for peace with our Creator is through the perfect, finished work of Christ on which He now makes intercession for us? Or not?
It’s good for Cameron to reconsider this. Your entire life will be turned upside down when you understand that “to the one that does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”
@@ChristOrChaos777 Catholics have peace as per Romans 5:1
@@irememberyou12 Right! Believers have peace with God “since we have been justified by faith.” Paul explains what that means in the preceding chapter. It’s the faith of Abraham which was credited to him as righteousness. We’re this close to being on the same page! 🤏🥲
Brother - We dig your transparency, kindness, and humility. Be blessed
My frustration here is that there seems to be a pride and discussion about “converting” to Catholicism. When the key is having the Holy Spirit make you born again.
Super interesting on a psychological note, the further white argues against Cameron's musings, the more defensive Cameron is becoming. But note, Cameron is super professional nonetheless. 👏 nice bro, stay classy
I think Cameron's patience is impressive. James monopolized the conversation and showed very little interest in anything Cameron had to say.
@@introvertedchristian5219 Very very ignorant comment. JW literally all of Cameron's questions directly. So, it is demonstrable that you are being disingenuous.
Gotta talk to Michael Lofton some time!
This man’s ego is up the roof…. Cameron, I can definitely see God working in you and admire you for seeking the truth. I’m always impressed and excited for new converts as they have just discovered the precious treasures in the church. I will pray for you, can’t wait to see you enjoying the fullness of the Catholic faith.
I would never leave Jesus present in the Holy Eucharist that fills my heart with incredible joy.
I admire your humility Cameron God bless
Not a personal fan of White's demeanor, but his arguments against the papacy are very strong. That said, I totally understand why people don't like listening to him 😅
💯
Which arguments did you find “very strong”?
People can not like James White's attitude all they want, it does not change the fact that everything he says holds up completely. I think he came at Cameron just as hard as he should have, which in all honesty, wasn't even that hard. If you're going to have a platform that thousands of people pay attention to, you owe it to everyone, most of all yourself, to do every bit of studying you possibly can. Having someone point out your lack of depth of knowledge in a topic isn't disrespectful, if anything, it's a moment of iron sharpening iron.
Cameron seems like a cool guy, but we should appreciate guys like James in our corner defending Christ in this world and doing so with a deep understanding of history and theology.
White is not defending Scripture. He is defending his interpretation of it. Attitude is extremely important to debate, but first and foremost, representing the image of Christ most of all. White is rude and condescending and has been for a long time. Simply because you agree with him doesn't give White a pass to be arrogant. We certainly don't need another Mark Driscoll type destroying Christian witness and White was certainly not loving in his interaction with Cameron or most which whom he disagrees. Believe in White's arguments all you want, but don't dismiss the importance of charity because you like the arguments more than the character.
White is right
@@nickhideki. Why? because you agree with his hermeneutical presuppositions???
I am Catholic and I can say that the “blessed man” is anyone who asks God for forgiveness. Romans was dealing with the question of the necessity of circumcision for justification. There were judaizers who believed that in order to be saved you had to become a Jew. Paul is saying that circumcision/Judaism is not necessary for justification. Rom 4:8 DOES NOT teach Sola fide nor OSAS!
From the Catholic Encyclopedia (quoting Denzinger):
"The Church has twice condemned the view that faith ultimately rests on an accumulation of probabilities. Thus the proposition, "The assent of supernatural faith . . is consistent with merely probable knowledge of revelation" was condemned by Innocent XI in 1679 (cf. Denzinger, Enchiridion, 10th ed., no. 1171); and the Syllabus Lamentabili sane (July, 1907) condemns the proposition (XXV) that "the assent of faith rests ultimately on an accumulation of probabilities."
As is argued by Catholic apologists such as Brian Cross, probabilities are 'motives of credibility' which are needed to get into Catholicism, but once you are Catholic, you trust the Magisterium even if the evidence seems to be against it. You trust the Magisterium not only for current dogmas, but for every dogma to be defined into the future indefinitely. Hence, the faithful Catholic is to live as if the probability for Catholicism is 100% (ie., infallible). That is the point James White is making -- a merely probabilistic justification for belief p, does not justify an irreformable belief in p. A logically certain, deductive proof is necessary and yet still insufficient, on account of personal fallibility.
A probabilistic Catholicism would be as absurd as saying, "The Pope is 97% sure, that he is 100% correct and infallible".
Not accurate
@@toddupchurch1028 As Scott Hahn notes, if a person believes Catholic dogma because he personally agrees and has been persuaded of them, he is not truly Catholic. A Catholic is someone who holds to Catholic dogma because the Magisterium teaches it. Though evidence did lead him to become Catholic, his faith in the Magisterium is not epistemically contingent on that evidence.
As the Catholic apologist Brian Cross writes,
///What about the person who becomes Catholic because the Catholic Church teaches his own interpretation of Scripture? How is such a person not in the same epistemic situation as the Protestant?
A. He is in the same epistemic situation as the Protestant. If a person becomes a Catholic on the basis that (and hence condition that) the Catholic Church shares his own interpretation of Scripture, he is not truly a Catholic at heart; he is still a Protestant at heart. One does not rightly become a Catholic on the ground that one happens to believe at present all the doctrines that the Church teaches. That approach is a form of rationalism, not fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding). One rightly becomes a Catholic by an act of faith in which one believes all that the Catholic Church teaches, even if not fully understanding it, on the ground of the apostolic authority of the Church’s magisterium.///
@@TheologiaEvangelica And would I agree with what they are saying. While it’s learned and erudite, it’s a lot of verbiage for this simple statement “Seek not to understand so that you may believe; but believe so that you may understand.” I know this much, if one thing about Catholicism is false, then all of it false. Fortunately, Catholicism doesn’t have that problem.
@@toddupchurch1028 I think you agree with the point I am making. If a person believes in Catholic teaching on the basis of it seeming probably true, then this person is not really Catholic. As Aquinas writes,
"though he intends to assent to Christ, fails in his choice of the things involved in that assent, because he chooses, not what Christ really bequeathed, but what his own mind suggests” (Summa Theologiae, 2a2ae, q. 11, art. 1)
He who adheres to the teaching of the Church, as to an infallible rule, assents to whatever the Church teaches; otherwise, if, of the things taught by the Church, he holds what he chooses to hold, and rejects what he chooses to reject, he no longer adheres to the teaching of the Church as to an infallible rule, but to his own will. Hence it is evident that a heretic who obstinately disbelieves one article of faith, is not prepared to follow the teaching of the Church in all things . . . such a heretic with regard to one article has no faith in the other articles, but only a kind of opinion in accordance with his own will. (ST II-II Q.5 A.3; see also Summa Contra Gentiles I.5)
This article from Catholic. com is helpful:
www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-true-faith-requires
💯...Unfortunately it seems that our Catholic friends cannot the simple reasoning if their lives depended on it...Its pretty simply though
Of course Cameron gets someone on who’s considered a lightweight on Catholicism, wouldn’t want to make his catholic audience mad by challenging them!
This was hard to watch. James White belittles Cameron and starts lecturing him from the start. He cut off Camerons intro/bio. Props to you Cameron for keeping your cool. Hopefully, (praying to God) you can find your way Home ⛪️✝️.
I am such a fan of Cameron Bertuzzi.
He is such a humble and honest man.
I am going to be honest right now...
I think James White toots his own horn too much.
When he talks about his debates, as though he was always the one on top.
I remember him debating For. Mitch Pacwa...and he was anything but on top.
I will say he is a very smart man, and a great debater...but it doesn't mean that he is on the right side of the debate.
I would like to see him sit down with Jimmy Akin or Joe Heschmeyer to discuss the papacyl
@12345shushi
???
@12345shushi
You have got to be kidding!
I very much enjoyed this conversation. Very much enjoyed James White's insight, knowledge and wisdom!
What's interesting here is how White's approach almost seems to be distancing Cameron from his arguments more than the actual arguments.
In other words, Dr. White is so abrasive in his approach that - regardless of the points he's making - agreeing with him is awkward and uncomfortable, so disagreeing is a more natural response. It's like Draco getting hugged by Lord Voldemort (not trying to draw a character parallel); who wants to be embraced by an unwelcoming and unloving position?
James White is just too acerbic and unlikable to listen to the very long it's almost like whatever argument he's making it's easier just to disagree with him because he's such a disliked person
Exactly the same protest I would raise to loving the fictional character known as Yahweh.
People in the comments saying White’s arguments are old and outdated but just because responses have been offered doesn’t mean those responses are adequate 😂
Just watched part of a debate between James White and Dr. Robert Sungenis from 2016 in which Dr. Sungenis says they it is possible for a Pope to be an unbeliever. That is, that it is possible for the "Vicar of Christ" to be a non-Christian. Dr. Sungenis is one of the foremost Roman Catholic apologists.
Just thought it interesting.