As always, very nice and enjoyable video. The lack of audio on the Kawari-HDMI was an issue in my setup initially as well. Luckily my older Toshiba LCD-TV offers a 3.5mm audio-in that can be assigned to accompany the video-in of either its VGA or HDMI-1 (probably meant for DVI-sources). So I was able to take the audio from the C64's DIN-connector and feed it in there. Of course this setup requires a second cable. Keep up the good work!
Nice touch with starting the video with the opening from ‘Impossible Mission’. Excellent video. I’m still running old school RCA. I might try this on a board I’m trying to repair. Thank you.
I've got the large Kawari as well and at first was bummed that the wasn't addressed, but I was the kid in the 80s that broke out the audio and sent it to my stereo anyway, so i installed it in one of my machines. Now that you've shown that the audio injectors can work, i may need to revisit it, like the 80s there are times when monitor audio is good enough.... Thanks for another great video and I'm looking forward to the Vic HDMI video next. No clue how that will work. :D
Heh, I did the same with the audio and still do. The problem now, especially with later HDMI devices including stereo receivers is they all expect audio to be in the HDMI stream and you cannot select a different audio source. As for the VIC20, you'll find out soon
I like to upgrade almost everything in my C64s (Static RAM, SMD EEPROMS, PLAnkton, ARMSID (because all the old SIDs are dead), Traco DCDC voltage regulators, high quality electrolytic capacitors, modern RF modulator replacement, new power switch, etc..), but the VIC-II I see as the soul of the C64 so for me I'm not really going to go with a Kawari. Interesting to see how it works though, so thumbs up. Good video.
I think being able to output HDMI video and audio together is definitely a must have if you want HDMI out. I love this workaround, it's awesome for making the C64 compatible with modern screens. Still, I have to wonder how much lag is introduced passing it through the HDMI audio embedder and how that would affect action games. It certainly would be better if the Kawari could do this directly at the point of creating the video frames.
The 64 runs at a slightly different clock speed for NTSC and PAL. So NTSC games usually run slightly faster, also the colour palettes are different along with the screen area. Most people will probably want to run it in the standard that they're used to, and a lot of stuff from the demoscene is made for PAL
Since you're freeing the audio embedder of its case I believe there should be enough room in a C-case as well. Nice done - I guess. Would have been more thrilled if you had an internal bracket and made the HDMI output flush with cabinet where the userport is (is anyone using that for anyting anymore except very rare 4 layer games?). Not a huge fan of wires out of the case. To be honest though I'm totally satishfied with the S-video output of the Kawari paired with a RetroScaler 2x. Sure there are a very few occasions where s-video falls a bit too short bit still perfectly interpretable. Brown text on blue background (in the basic prompt etc.) is not as sharp as many of the other combinations. But hey it's still way better than composite and the original vic chip on s-video and imho it doesn't have to be like a pixel perfect emulator in order for you to enjoy the retro fun. Fun fact: You can even see hint of jailbars on the Kawari (s-video at least) in certain games like Paradroid or Guldkornekspressen.
The only issue I'm having with my aussie-model C64 (The flat one) is video output, I got myself a breakout board off eBay, really nice one that gets assembled on request here in Australia, and a AV to HDMI from JBHifi, I also have a cheap Digitech svideo to vga from jaycar, the C64 outputs via the breakout to the jaycar device, looks like crap though, but won't output from the breakout to the AV2HDMI device. Have a few NES consoles that all work 100% with the AV2HDMI device however. I don't have a scope, so can't really look at signals easy enough to see what works and doesn't work.
Those AV2HDMI devices can be pretty hit and miss, especially with the C64 as you've found. I think the issue is they aren't very tolerant to slightly out of spec sync signals. There's no real fix for that apart from trying your luck with another one. I have found there's one called "HDMI video converter" on AliExpress that works well, it's a black box with white and blue text on it
I'm using perifractics Vicii switcher with ntsc using chroma luma on a 1084 and for Pal an S video into framemiester to an hdmi monitor. Wish my 1084 would run pal as I prefer a crt
The latest update to the Kawari (mini and HDMI versions) has an option for NTSC50 allowing PAL modes with NTSC colour encoding. I've heard this works with the 1084 but as I'm in PAL land I don't have an NTSC 1084 to test it with
Will the Kawari also provide a better analog video output via the DIN connector, if a modern RF replacement will be installed? The HDMI output kills a lot of the original look and feel of the C64 in my opinion.
I think it's neat how Aussies pronounce 'H' as 'haech". Also, the Kawari is a very nice product. It worked in my breadbin on the first try. I'd love to see some developers get behind it with some games and apps which take advantage of the new features, especially the reconfigurable color palette. I love my commie, but I'd be lying if I said that it has a well-chosen color palette.
Maybe Randy Rossi has already answered that but my guess is that the work required would fall outside of the goal of the project, which is replacing the VIC-II IC: the analog audio signal would have to be converted to digital and the audio data then packed into the HDMI stream. Hardware-wise it would require an ADC and dedicating a portion of the FPGA to the handling of the data.
I think the main reason would be that the Kawari sends out DVI video through an HDMI connector and not a full HDMI signal. I believe this is easier (and cheaper) to implement. HDMI is not an open standard and licence fees/royalty fees need to be paid by those making products that use HDMI.
Pretty much, and using DVI over a HDMI connector is free. Including audio would require getting a licence from the HDMI group and the licence cost isn't viable for such a niche item (from what I understand)
I have a 64C short board that I picked up not too long ago after a 15-year Commodore hiatus, so this mod wouldn't be possible for my machine. I'm using separate (luma/chroma) to S-Video to HDMI through a cheap converter box. While certainly not VIC-II Kawari caliber, the image quality isn't half bad, either... and it's nice having audio piped-through the HDMI cable without the need for yet another converter board. Am I saying this because I truly believe it or because my options are limited (cough, non-existent)? You decide. 😄
Not sure this would work for me. I don't own a TV with HDMI on it. At least not one that works. I've picked a couple out of junk piles over the years, but I don't bother fixing them because I have no use for a flat screen tv.
@@TheRetroChannel Well I'd happily switch, however the newer screens have too much input lag. Meaning anything higher than zero. It makes vintage games really hard to play, and a lot of them are hard to start with.
As always, very nice and enjoyable video. The lack of audio on the Kawari-HDMI was an issue in my setup initially as well. Luckily my older Toshiba LCD-TV offers a 3.5mm audio-in that can be assigned to accompany the video-in of either its VGA or HDMI-1 (probably meant for DVI-sources). So I was able to take the audio from the C64's DIN-connector and feed it in there. Of course this setup requires a second cable. Keep up the good work!
Nice touch with starting the video with the opening from ‘Impossible Mission’. Excellent video. I’m still running old school RCA. I might try this on a board I’m trying to repair. Thank you.
Great tutorial. I have never owned a C64, but enjoy watching your videos.
I've got the large Kawari as well and at first was bummed that the wasn't addressed, but I was the kid in the 80s that broke out the audio and sent it to my stereo anyway, so i installed it in one of my machines. Now that you've shown that the audio injectors can work, i may need to revisit it, like the 80s there are times when monitor audio is good enough.... Thanks for another great video and I'm looking forward to the Vic HDMI video next. No clue how that will work. :D
Heh, I did the same with the audio and still do. The problem now, especially with later HDMI devices including stereo receivers is they all expect audio to be in the HDMI stream and you cannot select a different audio source.
As for the VIC20, you'll find out soon
You're one of my favorite TH-camrs. Keep up the good work!
Thank you John :-)
I like to upgrade almost everything in my C64s (Static RAM, SMD EEPROMS, PLAnkton, ARMSID (because all the old SIDs are dead), Traco DCDC voltage regulators, high quality electrolytic capacitors, modern RF modulator replacement, new power switch, etc..), but the VIC-II I see as the soul of the C64 so for me I'm not really going to go with a Kawari. Interesting to see how it works though, so thumbs up. Good video.
Excellent tutorial. I may give it a shot on one of my C64's. Hopefully more Kawari's go on sale soon.
I think being able to output HDMI video and audio together is definitely a must have if you want HDMI out. I love this workaround, it's awesome for making the C64 compatible with modern screens.
Still, I have to wonder how much lag is introduced passing it through the HDMI audio embedder and how that would affect action games. It certainly would be better if the Kawari could do this directly at the point of creating the video frames.
100% agree with your RGB reasoning. It’s what I did on my C64 running into a 20” PVM.
Does this MOD gives the 80 column by hardware feature?
Is there any real advantage in having PAL / NTSC over HDMI other than 50/60Hz on the display?
The 64 runs at a slightly different clock speed for NTSC and PAL. So NTSC games usually run slightly faster, also the colour palettes are different along with the screen area. Most people will probably want to run it in the standard that they're used to, and a lot of stuff from the demoscene is made for PAL
Since you're freeing the audio embedder of its case I believe there should be enough room in a C-case as well. Nice done - I guess. Would have been more thrilled if you had an internal bracket and made the HDMI output flush with cabinet where the userport is (is anyone using that for anyting anymore except very rare 4 layer games?). Not a huge fan of wires out of the case.
To be honest though I'm totally satishfied with the S-video output of the Kawari paired with a RetroScaler 2x. Sure there are a very few occasions where s-video falls a bit too short bit still perfectly interpretable. Brown text on blue background (in the basic prompt etc.) is not as sharp as many of the other combinations. But hey it's still way better than composite and the original vic chip on s-video and imho it doesn't have to be like a pixel perfect emulator in order for you to enjoy the retro fun. Fun fact: You can even see hint of jailbars on the Kawari (s-video at least) in certain games like Paradroid or Guldkornekspressen.
The only issue I'm having with my aussie-model C64 (The flat one) is video output, I got myself a breakout board off eBay, really nice one that gets assembled on request here in Australia, and a AV to HDMI from JBHifi, I also have a cheap Digitech svideo to vga from jaycar, the C64 outputs via the breakout to the jaycar device, looks like crap though, but won't output from the breakout to the AV2HDMI device.
Have a few NES consoles that all work 100% with the AV2HDMI device however.
I don't have a scope, so can't really look at signals easy enough to see what works and doesn't work.
Those AV2HDMI devices can be pretty hit and miss, especially with the C64 as you've found. I think the issue is they aren't very tolerant to slightly out of spec sync signals. There's no real fix for that apart from trying your luck with another one. I have found there's one called "HDMI video converter" on AliExpress that works well, it's a black box with white and blue text on it
Here's a link to it, hopefully TH-cam doesn't nuke this reply
a.aliexpress.com/_mNCdbRw
I look forward to the next version of the Modulator with built in hdmi audio embedder 😉
Grab the design files from the GitHub page and make it happen. Let me know when you're done 😉😉
Very well done, as always. Thank you!
you should have more subscribers! what an awesome video 👍🏻
I'm using perifractics Vicii switcher with ntsc using chroma luma on a 1084 and for Pal an S video into framemiester to an hdmi monitor. Wish my 1084 would run pal as I prefer a crt
The latest update to the Kawari (mini and HDMI versions) has an option for NTSC50 allowing PAL modes with NTSC colour encoding. I've heard this works with the 1084 but as I'm in PAL land I don't have an NTSC 1084 to test it with
Will the Kawari also provide a better analog video output via the DIN connector, if a modern RF replacement will be installed?
The HDMI output kills a lot of the original look and feel of the C64 in my opinion.
Yes, I compared the analog output of the Kawari vs an original VIC-II a couple of months back th-cam.com/video/shM0UsKR1oE/w-d-xo.html
I think it's neat how Aussies pronounce 'H' as 'haech". Also, the Kawari is a very nice product. It worked in my breadbin on the first try. I'd love to see some developers get behind it with some games and apps which take advantage of the new features, especially the reconfigurable color palette. I love my commie, but I'd be lying if I said that it has a well-chosen color palette.
Hiberno-English, comes from Irish heritage. Same in NZ.
@MrTGuru We pronounce it "eych." 😄
Why is there no audio-in on the Kawari?
Maybe Randy Rossi has already answered that but my guess is that the work required would fall outside of the goal of the project, which is replacing the VIC-II IC: the analog audio signal would have to be converted to digital and the audio data then packed into the HDMI stream. Hardware-wise it would require an ADC and dedicating a portion of the FPGA to the handling of the data.
I think the main reason would be that the Kawari sends out DVI video through an HDMI connector and not a full HDMI signal. I believe this is easier (and cheaper) to implement. HDMI is not an open standard and licence fees/royalty fees need to be paid by those making products that use HDMI.
Pretty much, and using DVI over a HDMI connector is free. Including audio would require getting a licence from the HDMI group and the licence cost isn't viable for such a niche item (from what I understand)
All I have to say is wow! Excellent
I have a 64C short board that I picked up not too long ago after a 15-year Commodore hiatus, so this mod wouldn't be possible for my machine. I'm using separate (luma/chroma) to S-Video to HDMI through a cheap converter box. While certainly not VIC-II Kawari caliber, the image quality isn't half bad, either... and it's nice having audio piped-through the HDMI cable without the need for yet another converter board. Am I saying this because I truly believe it or because my options are limited (cough, non-existent)? You decide. 😄
Not sure this would work for me. I don't own a TV with HDMI on it. At least not one that works. I've picked a couple out of junk piles over the years, but I don't bother fixing them because I have no use for a flat screen tv.
Really? That's true commitment to analog video
@@TheRetroChannel Well I'd happily switch, however the newer screens have too much input lag. Meaning anything higher than zero.
It makes vintage games really hard to play, and a lot of them are hard to start with.
Fair enough, although some screens can get down to under 1 frame of lag. Still, there's nothing like playing on a CRT with zero 👍
i much rather use Fullscreen
Kawari is sold out……😢
That sucks, I'm sure there'll be more available soon enough
Why would you wear that?
Not a fan of Ninjesus I take it?
Almost… I wish, I was the first, who commented.
So close