How Clean is Hydrogen, Actually? With Prof. David Cebon | The PLUS Podcast
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Professor David Cebon has authored or co-authored more than
200 peer-reviewed papers on dynamic loads of heavy vehicles,
road and bridge response and damage, asphalt micromechanics,
weigh-in-motion, advanced suspension design, safety, productivity
and energy consumption. In this episode, he hones in on Hydrogen
and sets straight a few myths about its uses and cleanliness.
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this should be mandatory viewing for every politician on the planet.
At first glance Tom, Seems like a good idea. Having worked with lots of politicians, most of them are not scientists, and even worse, they are lawyers, and they are truly stupid and immoral. What we need is more politicians that are scientists.
Exactly
Especially the corrupt corporate belly filled ones in India!!
I doubt it'd matter. Politicians are very easily bought
One thing that made me even MORE pro EU was when the EPC regulations were radically overhauled.
Our government is big on reducing regulation, which crucially also means allowing companies to get away with a lot more
Due to the radical overhaul of the EPC rating, appliances are already becoming more efficient because there's an incentive to do so. Politicians that can be bought don't have that.
Fortunately, the UK isn't as powerful when I comes to regulation as our leaders like to think we are. That's meant we're basically forced to accept European emission standards. If we were more powerful, I can't see us radically overhauling EPC standards at all.
With regards to my own house, I use the "average" amount of gas for a house this size but I use 65% of the average amount of electricity, for a house this size. I bought my house not long after the EPC overhaul, and because I've had to go out and buy a bunch of stuff, that's some serious savings (3500 kWh vs 5500 kWh) I don't yet have an EV, and I only got solar panels put on at the end of November. I'm quoting my "before November" energy requirements
Basically, what I'm getting at is that it doesn't actually matter if politicians in the UK and the US see this. They're very easily bought.
MEPs however do need to see this, given the EU is also looking at incorporating more hydrogen, and realistically the only person with any scientific or engineering background within the EU is Angela Merkel.
Everyone else is a lifelong career politician, and those people absolutely need to know the ins and outs of what decarbonisation truly means.
Unless that comes with a large stuffed brown envelope it won’t make the blindest bit of difference :-)
This is such an important video its one of the best podcast I've heard for months. Thanks Robert brilliant work and I am share like crazy!!
Robert that was the best podcast yet, it was interesserttingly clear and educational. I may have to watch it again as I am suffering information overload, and neck ache through shaking my head in disbelief. This coalition I hope is talking to our government so we focus on the areas we can implement change quickly.
Great job - as you say more people need to watch this.
This was an amazing amount of information from Prof David Cebon. He absolutely kills the idea of Hydrogen being of any additional use than what it is already used for. I am still amazed that ASHP is 6x more efficient. Incredible and more people need to see and hear this.
Slight problem is that ASHPs don't produce a fuel. Remember also that our huge Gas Network can handle a high proportion of Hydrogen (Coal Gas was up to 80% Hydrogen) Hydrogen has a part to play, as do many other systems.
@@tedf1471 Did you watch and listen to all of this????
ASHP produce heat and use electricity as their fuel. At no point is an ASHP talked about as creating anything but heat, especially talking about domestic heating.
The gas pipes need to be upgraded to carry hydrogen and that is a significant cost.
Hydrogen is difficult to transport and
Hydrogen will in effect take 6 x more energy to create it.
So sure, would you still want to use a bolier that has had to be updated to use hydrogen if the gas was even just 4x higher than that of the cost of electricity? 3x more electricity used to create so cost passsed on and the cost of doing the process and transporting may actually cost many times more. Also, the boiler efficiency will need to use more to produce the same amount of heat from an ASHP.
ASHP may not be suitable everywhere, but where they can be fitted it will be better as it reduces the electricity demand on the grid, so increased use of them is better for our planet as well.
I have moved to full electric and I have a warm home, a useable cooker as well as all items in my home. I can then drive 10,000 miles a year and pay a lot less to do so.
Industry may be a different story but many different sustainable methods will be available and it is about finding those that work on a larger scale for a business, so I do agree with that.
@@Jaw0lf Electricity is not a fuel, it is a form of energy and needs a way to be stored. Fuels are of interest when transport is involved, it's their energy density and mobility. I had a hefty KIA SUV for a few days recently, very impressive but I discovered its battery pack weighed 1.4 Tonnes! As for the UK Gas network, legislation has already been passed to allow up to 15% Hydrogen be added. All evenues need to be explored without prejudice - Ammonia for Shipping and/or Trains?
Fascinating. The facts that we don't hear before a debate or a news article
Brilliant! I’m afraid that we will need to continue to have this conversation to help clarify this topic.
Really informative interview. I have had my reservations for Hydrogen for years and once had a heated debate with a fellow employee at my previous job who ridiculed my choice to go EV and stated Hydrogen Fuel Cells were the future despite my argument stating that 98% of Hydrogen is made from burning fossil fuels but he was having nothing of it. He was convinced back then, probably 4 and half years ago, that EVs would never work and Hydrogen was the future. This interview clearly showed that the storage & transportation of Hydrogen is prohibitively difficult and thereby likely prohibitively expensive to be a sensible solution. I have now gone from having reservations about Hydrogen to simply not accepting it is a sensible option. Though I would be happy to be proven wrong and can now only see Hydrogen utilised by the method of Renewable Energy Electrolysis.
Ive used this video again for someone going on about full hydrogen boilers
Brilliant. After listening to they issues covered in the hydrogen ladder in clean technical - this also explains so well. I have family that still think I'm absolutely wrong on hydro vs elec due to all the b's out there, and yet I cannot get them to even listen to a well structured counter argument. They think I'm stupid buying into the elec hype. How to reach the masses with basic logic and numbers is the world's biggest challenge. We have leading politicians x who shld be at least basically smart, pushing for hydrogen and ccs - how in the face of such basic logic? A one hour presentation shld stop wasting time and resources in building fuelling stations for 8 cars etc... How can we stop leaders going on dead bandwagons?!
Great discussion and completely backs up what I have been saying for a looooong time.
This is fabulous as it gives me more ammunition to kill off the FUD.
Thank you gentlemen- great discussion. Big thumbs up 👍
I’d love to see a discussion on hemp biofuel in a hybrid vehicle.
Excellent what a brilliant chat.
The other ‘nearly clean’ potential economic application for electrolytic hydrogen is long term grid storage. Produce the hydrogen via electrolysis with renewable electricity, store it, and use, for example hydrogen combustion turbines to generate electricity during long spells when the wind isn’t blowing and sun isn’t shining. I don’t think this was mentioned. This is expected to be economic because storing large quantities of energy in the form of hydrogen is so much cheaper than storing it in, for example, electrochemical storage (batteries), that the costs of the inefficiencies of the conversion steps are made up for with the cheapness of the storage, though companies such as Form Energy may be changing this calculus with their iron air battery.
Fantastic thank you so much
The expert did not talk about red hydrogen with Japan HTTR reactor that is all the rage nowadays!!!
Also he did not talk about hydrogen on tape aka plasma kinetics
We're being sold some magic beans ... sigh, David Cebon is great, hope he does come back to chat some more.
One of your best episodes to date. A fascinating insight from a genuine expert. Thank you!
I totally agree.
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
@@josidasilva5515 why are you posting the same comment multiple times? You should have listened more carefully, especially about the inefficiencies of converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity, and th problems of moving hydrogen around.....
@@josidasilva5515 Sorry - basic thermodynamics is against you. There is no free energy (other than Gibbs' of course... 😂😂)
He's an expert on whether a big truck will roll over (vehicle dynamics). He's NOT an expert on electricity, renewable energy, or hydrogen, which is obvious from the many mistakes and incorrect assertions he makes. Unfortunately, the non-scientific think that all scientists know all about all science. No. Think of it this way: if your appendix burst would you go to an electrical engineering professor to fix it? I put a long post elsewhere here detailing the problems with this guy's statements.
Excellent conversation! It is absolutely amazing and RARE to have the oppertunity to listen to someone that has actual knowledge that is rooted in a scientific background, instead of a lot of opinions, mostly based on hopes and wishes, or political views and "information" provided by lobbyists!
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
@@josidasilva5515 should have listened more carefully, especially about the inefficiencies of converting electricity to hydrogen and then back to electricity, and th problems of moving hydrogen around.....
@@jm-ze3sf You do not have to move hydrogen, make it where you need it with water and sun or wind. Once you realize that it recycles back to water and re-use it, you can circumnavigate mars with a liter of water.
@@josidasilva5515
We only need 3 more things to make hydrogen cheap and in abundance.
1. A magic wand
2. Pixie dust
3. A wish
..... good luck with that.
@@josidasilva5515 He actually said that increasing efficiency and reducing emissions of "green" H2 production is the first thing we should be doing, as vastly more hydrogen will be needed to produce fertilizer than the amount of hydrogen that is used for all purposes today. He also said something about looking at things with an open mind and making decisions based on capabilities derived from the science instead of preconceptions politics etc.
I'm such a geek. To say that's the best hour and five minutes I've spent in recent memory is somewhat worrying. Brilliant, truly brilliant.
Perfect explanation of the lunacy of most of the hydrogen hype going on at the moment. Should be required viewing for all politicians, civil servants and media. Well done Prof Cebon.
They just argue that the scientists are not sure if there is not a much more efficient method just around the corner. They just have to look better. And what about E-Fuel? Why not use E-Fuel. Energy in Patagonia is abundant and they - Porsche and Siemens - have demostrated how easy and cheap E-Fuel could be if they woud get more money to develop the technolgies, that are all just around the corner.
@@wolfgangpreier9160 there aren't solutions round the corner, there is the slight problem of the laws of thermodynamics. Porchse are happy to sell extremely expensive e-fuels to rich people. Not viable in the real world.
@@mattwright2964 I know, but the politicians do not accept that.
You just have to dig further, you always get a result, increase your efforts, you can do it, the future of mankind rests on your shoulders. No pressure! The sky is the limit, physics is for kindergarten.
And so on and so on.
There is no workaround to reduce our heating up the planet besides stopping burning fossil ressources. And then wait 300-500 years until it has normalized again.
Oh i know one way. Migrate to Mars.
Absolutely brilliant! How clearly all of the information was explained. Spread the word.
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
@@josidasilva5515 👈 invested everything he owns into hydrogen refueling stations
Brilliant episode @BobbyLew. Professor Cebon was one of the best guests you have ever had on the podcast. Anytime I get into conversation with a H advocate, I shall politely direct them to this!
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
@@josidasilva5515 That still doesn't solve any of the other issues highlighted in the show. 75% efficiency to 90% efficiency doesn't get round the issues further downstream. The energy density of the hydrogen vs diesel and the number of delivery trucks required is a massive issue which is easy to visualise. I presume their will be a similar issue with storing large volumes of hydrogen vs diesel, and where these tanks will be located.
Prof Cebon spot on.
Focus with hydrogen must be on steel making and fertiliser.
I would also add as feedstock in making synthetic jet, rocket and diesel fuel, because in some situations there is no feasible alternative for these fuels.
Just burning it as a replacement for natural gas or petrol is a waste of time and money and wont help the planet.
I have visited the two largest hydrogen makers in Denmark, they are both saying they are going for these industries for green hydrogen. They have dismissed passenger cars long ago.
But he said it's:-
"High NOx when burned"
.
Highly inefficient as a fuel
.
And my understanding is that using it to produce "other fuel" is just adding more stages and so more inefficiency (pollution) to that production.
.
Then, at the end... "Shipping" (long range) at 2% of current pollution, should use Biofuels.
Well, Aviation is also 2%?
Apply the same principle.
Pick the battles.
"Perfect is the enemy of good"
Yes, there is inefficiency in making hydrogen from electricity and making other chemicals from that hydrogen but if you are a bit clever then you use that inefficiency (heat) in a district heating system. You do have those in the UK, right?
I like bio fuels, as long as they are not from palm oil plantations replacing jungles...
And again, clean up the electric grid first, figure out uses for the excess fossil free electricity after that.
Hmm, are we sure this bloke's at the top of his game?
A Google around will find you plenty of papers/ research engineers arguing the opposite.
@@Arpedk 😂😂😂😂
Yes indeed these two hydrogen producers might well proclaim such.
Other producer state the opposite.
Whether you agree or not is irrelevant.
Some authorities are determined to make hydrogen cars regardless.
Suggest you Google up the predictions for battery cars to get a sense of balance.
Would be great to have a visual of his 5 points. A very fine presentation!
Great suggestion. I feel a relatively short video with clear visualisations would help educate us all.
Perhaps he could collaborate with MinuteEarth?
h2sciencecoalition.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Hydrogen-Science-Coalition-Principles.pdf
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
@@josidasilva5515 Prof D. Cebon highlights the role of hydrogen as a chemical ... and that the use of hydrogenfor energy is just plain a bad idea. Hydrogen as an energy transfer or source is an unnecessarily complicated idea in a world were a simpler solution already has 1000x more traction. How does presenting a logical argument with supporting evidence represent an "overall negative perspective"?
This is some of the most 'fact dense' viewing I have ever seen. I've watched it three times, right through, I've even taken note so I am armed to the teeth with factual arguments next time someone tells me that hydrogen is the future.
Such a great episode.
This was one of the most interesting talks so far. I am horrified by the numbers - I knew hydrogen is not the way, but the scale clarification by professor Cebon is chilling.
You were right, this was an amazing interview. The influence from the powerful fossil fuel industry is clearly what's driving this crazy Hydrogen push. And what he said about leaving the shipping and aircraft industry until last makes so much sense.
Excellent discussion. A lot of fundamental issues addressed and explained. This clarification is so important and and helps better inform those who continually find themselves engaging in such discussion. Great stuff. Bring on the electrification. As you’ve said so often Robert we must ‘stop burning stuff’
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
@@josidasilva5515 But the emissions when burnt are so much worse too. It's not going to work. End of story.
@@BrawnyBeats Then there is no solution to climate change, simple as that. Battery cars is very inefficient and not sustainable long term. They're important tool to allow affluent people under the right circumstances to transition and reduce emissions.
Ground and air source heat pumps are also a great solution again for specific use cases and should be mandatory for all new builds. They are however not suitable in large parts of the country, and another solution needs to be found.
Right now Hydrogen especially green hydrogen is looking like the best solution. It's also appearing like it might be a better grid battery storage solution to replace gas. Hydrogen can be created during excesses in wind and solar production and used to offset them once both sources die back or immediate peak demand is needed.
Hydrogen cars: *"Dumb as a bag of socks!"* 🤣
Dirty socks.
.
Mismatched dirty socks.
.
Mismatched dirty socks with holes in!
If you are not sailing huge tankers of oil around the world, all of a sudden you need a whole lot less hydrocarbon for sea freight.
Apparently up to about 40% of ocean freight is moving fossil fuels around.
That was the most brilliant clarification on the topic of hydrogen that I have ever seen and listened to for years well done, well done.
Sorry Mr. Ce'st bon, ne pas bon. He's not that good with numbers and has an overall negative perspective. He should be looking into improving efficiency in electrolysis by resonance (pulse with modulation) or breaking H2O by ionization (high Voltage on atomized water).
Me thinks you doth protest too much Mr Dasilva
@@josidasilva5515 But the emissions when burnt are so much worse too. It's not going to work. End of story.
@@josidasilva5515 right, and then if you get it to 100% efficient electrolysis using hypothetical magic technology, you're still only half as efficient as BEV.
The purpose of electrolysis is to provide a greenwashing marketing strategy to sell more methane.
@@Seehart Every new technology was called magic, until someone discovered and started to use it. There is also magic to be made with ionization of atomized water resulting in H2, just like what happens during a thunderstorm, which was also considered magic by troglodytes.
Probably the best rundown of why hydrogen isn't the answer on TH-cam. Thanks.
Brilliant. This video is now in my armoury for the dino burners on Twitter. Thank you so much.
If gasoline, was being considered as an vehicle energy source in 2023, it would never be use. Way to dirty for use.....and the environmental toll contamination on our planet. We are victim's of our own ability to scrutinize, the details to the nth degree, now.
Evs are the best option for human life, and health in the future.
So good to hear from such an expert on this topic
I am so thankful and happy you had this show because I too went down the hydrogen dead end many years ago and came to realize that if you just use 1st principles when thinking about energy then let’s go straight to Solar, wind,offshore wind,onshore wind with sort and medium term battery storage or immediate
The first episode I have ever watched, I have been listening forever but this was a great conversation. Could you add chapter markers to the video? It would really help as there are a few parts in particular that I would love to show people i.e my parents who just installed a "Hydrogen Ready Boiler". I knew it didn't make sense but thanks for clarifying! Keep up the good work!
Totally brilliant episode. Blew me away. So clearly explained.
So when people say "Hydrogen's the future" thinking they sound intelligent. They're actually coming across as quite the opposite?
Yep. Jumping on the bandwagon of hype is not smart.
Absolutely loved this podcast, so much interesting information
Ok Who's going to tell Toyota😀, It would save them lot's of research money..
Toyota put their money on corruption winning. But hydrogen will go down as another lie from the fossil fuel industry.
I am serious when I tell you that I think people in the fossil fuel industry pushing hydrogen in all these complete wasteful inefficiënt projects on propose to slow down progress, should be brought to justice and jailed for pushing the end of our millions of years normal climate cycle.
LOCK THEM UP.
I feel like somebody lied to the Japanese government and now all Japanese automotive firms are held back by this thinking that since they are going to be importing fossil fuels forever, they might as well just transition to the latest and greatest fossil fuel because EVs are just not doable. And it feel like something that might seriously cripple not just those companies, but the entire Japanese economy going forwards.
Koreans experimenting on liquid hydrogen too
Someone needs to find and republish the TOYOTA document from 5(?) years ago detailing, (with pictures!) the relative efficiency of Direct battery vs hydrogen.
As I recall, their projected efficiency was below 30%.
(I'm sure I have it somewhere!)
Well in a round-about way he answered the question Ive been wondering for some time, which is if Hydrogen fuel cells are so great, then wouldnt Methane fuel cells be even better because its a cheaper, more ubiquitous, easier to store, more energy-dense fuel? And the answer is that it absolutely would be which is why we arent doing it because we can sell MORE methane converting it to hydrogen and pretend like its a zero carbon fuel.
Even NASA cant contain their hydrogen properly. How is QuikE Mart going to do it??
But for me the key thing that made me realize that hydrogen is completely stupid is if you look at the weight, storage capacity and the range of HFC vehicles vs EVs. For the same range, HFC cars weigh more and often dont even have ANY trunk space... compared to EVs that often have TWO trunks! And the only way to squeeze more range out of an HFC vehicle is to use higher pressure tanks, which means they weigh even more, are more prone to leaks and take longer to refill, and probably require a special higher pressure filling station. Its an utter boondoggle.
Ok.
We agree that "Hydrogen is completely stupid" but does that make methane "good"?
(No)
I wish I could like this video 100 times. Such great information.
I'm going to be a bit naughty and suggest that hydrogen most definitely IS the answer - but only when it's around 93,000,000 miles away.
People want to work hydrogen on Earth because they hope to monopolise energy production and distribution, hold entire countries to ransom and get obscenely wealthy. That's not going to help. We don't need any more energy barons; we need clean, cheap power.
Well, the Sun already produces inconceivably vast amounts of entirely green, pollution-free power from hydrogen, and will continue to do so for several thousand million years.
Hmm. 🤔 Too bad there's no way we can harvest it.
Oh, wait -
Nobody likes a smartarse..... Except when they're right! 😉
David Cebon: thank you for this very clear and layman accessible explanation of what hydrogen should and should not be used for! I have to admit that I am lacking Physics knowledge, which you kindly provided in this interview! I will use a lot of your arguments going forward to hopefully get everyone on the right track to decarbonise the main stuff!
The MP's in charge of our Energy security should be made to sit and listen to this and then explain to the electorate why they think Hydrogen and fracking is the future and not renewable energy/technology.
Cmdr Machine,
the snag being renewables cannot work, they are not suited for large scale grid supply, nor can technical advancement do anything for the key deficiencies of renewables, the largest of which is intermittency and batteries are not asolution as the required capacity is so large..
In the U.K. gas generation is what keeps the grid going, it is the backbone, so fracking should have been done years ago, primarily for energy security. Coal should never have been run down as that is an alternative reliable generator but now all our reliable fuels are in one basket, i.e. gas. Nuclear is a good but unpopular route that is also worth doing.
I know the reason they think Hydrogen and Fracking are the future, because their fossil fuel bosses state that is the case and they have to do as they are told by their puppet masters.
Please could you talk to the Australian Government please they thing hydrogen is the future. Great episode.
Because they are being taken to lunch,golf,weekends by these lobbyists.
He convinced me. a lot of information there I hadn't heard.
Well done.
OMG what a great interview, so clear. He would be fantastic in a debate, as he would be so effective in taking the emotion hype and energy, preventing the audience being whipped up in a frienzy!.
Great podcast. So informative.
I saw this was an hour long and really didn't fancy watching it, felt like Prof Cebon and Robert chatted for 10 mins, and then it ended, so interesting and a great podcats thanks.
Interesting and informative. My view on hydrogen has certainly been turned around.🇨🇦
Lord Doge called it fools cell
I call itta fools seal Toyota sealed their fate when they invested bbbbillions 6 hrs ago insteadof getting in th game they tried ta change th rules inda game by falsely claiming hybrids are electric NO SIR
Blue hydrogen - It's a shame they never mention the emissions in extracting the natural gas in the first place.
The 18 to 1 ratio for energy vs diesel is just shocking.
Just imagine the size of the fuel tanks you are going to need to go the same distance in a hydrogen car. This is a ridiculous technology.
And the fact that there are companies investing in hydrogen combustion, which is way less efficient than fuel cells, is just a joke.
48:10 . Getting hydrogen to filling stations. WOW! To paraphrase, it would need 18 tankers to transport the same energy as one tanker of diesel.
get this guy on the pay roll he's fantastic. Very clear and informed expert opinion.
That was the best talk on hydrogen I ever heard bar none!! Now, all we have to do is get rid of the ridiculously uneducated or just plain dumb politicians. Let the adults drive the ships of state for a little bit.
Almost impossible to get rid of the 'Muppets in Power', given the corrupt political system they have made for themselves. Bring on True Democracy. As you say we should be in-charge of ourselves and our own future. Unfortunately, the power is in the hands of the corrupt elite politicians who's interest are primarily within the fossil fuel industry, along with all their chums, and that even goes for the Labour Party.
Wow. So “Don’t burn stuff” clearly applies to Hydrogen too.. !
The other option for long haul trucking etc is dedicated shot section catenary (pantograph lines) ie between Sydney and Melbourne on uphill sections trucks could hook into the overhead catenary and get charged up as they drive. This can dovetail with charging at stopping points. This is important for countries where they swap drivers and keep rigs on the roads closer to 24 hours like the USA.
Fantastic clarity from David, brilliant - shout this from the rooftops
I'm generally daunted by anything over an hour but this was so informative, thank you. Prof. Cebon put the facts so clearly and I will probably quote him at Transition town meetings, not to mention the pub!
Great episode, but please put any internet URLs you mention into the podcast description please!
I feel that I've learnt something. Thank you
Shocking. Hydrogen is even less efficient and green than I imagined.
Why do people STILL make petrol and diesel cars? why are people doing ANY jobs that are harming our planet or we don't need to have done...its because they need their jobs and their income..and the ONLY possible way we can get ourselves out of the madness is to make it financially worthwhile for people to SHARE the jobs we can agree we NEED to have done and work much LESS..no more doing anything FOR money but sharing the work we agree we NEED...The world could be changed easily.
Brilliant talk. One tiny thing which I'd better bring up, or some H2 fanatic will try to get in here. When he's talking about NOx from H2, he's referring to combusting H2. Just saying. But brilliant.
10:17 The main type of hydrogen comes from fossil fuels
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
12:30 Why the fossil fuel industry love ‘Blue Hydrogen’
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
17:55 Hydrogen is a very inefficient fuel
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
20:50 To produce 'Green' Hydrogen it requires 3-5 times more electricity from renewables than simply taking electricity directly from renewables
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
22:50 Challenges of containing Hydrogen in the home for heating as a replacement for gas
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
23:35 Dangers of Hydrogen in the home
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
31:45 ‘Grey’ Hydrogen vs diesel
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
37:25 ‘Blue’ Hydrogen is not clean
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
42:20 Blending Hydrogen into the gas grid
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
45:27 Hydrogen cars have batteries in them
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
45:45 Clean air requirement of Hydrogen cars
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
46:45 Hydrogen vs Electric vehicle popularity
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
48:14 Transporting Hydrogen to a filling station (at 700 bar!!!)
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
1:02:11 Lithium shortage
th-cam.com/video/JlOCS95Jvjc/w-d-xo.html
This is the third or fourth time I've watched this talk, and parts of it still astound me. For example:
1. Raised NOx emissions in a H2 domestic boiler
2. Combustible H2 truck producing more emissions than diesel.
Of course, we all know why this non-starter is still being promoted.
Great vid Bobby. Very informative. So if most car manufacturers are going into BEV, but Toyota are sticking with Hydrogen, does this mean that Toyota are getting back handers from the fossil fuel industry? There clearly doesn't seems to be a scientific reason behind it.
They know exactly hydrogen has no short, medium and prob no long term future. Putting people on the wrong path towards the future is a proven strategy for them as they can prolong selling their “efficient” hybrids at a great margin
Can I suggest a video that distills the key elements of this fantastic discussion into an illustrated "fact check" on hydrogen use in ground transport and home heating. With a bit on the end showing where Hydrogen is absolutely critical, like fertiliser and possibly cleaning up steel making. It should be no more than 15 minutes long, preferably 10 minutes.
I am fed up of explaining to people the real story with Hydrogen (fossil fuel lobby on steroids!). This podcast does it all... but it is over an hour long and hops about a bit.
This was such a valuable educational hour for me. I have to admit, I've previously been somewhat of a proponent for a hydrogen economy. But this conversation has forced me to reevaluate. I think I had seriously underestimated the real world impracticalities and inefficiencies of a hydrogen economy. The basic theory initially seemed like a great solution. I'd still like to see how grid scale battery storage stacks up against on-site green hydrogen production (as a mechanism for storing excess generation). But it's common sense to first use any green hydrogen to replace the essential hydrogen uses that currently rely on dirty coloured hydrogen production.
would be great if the west Australian gov listened to David cebon instead of wasting time & money on their hydrogen plan !!!!
I've been struggling with the FCEV community trying to flex on BEVs of late. This episode is incredibly useful in terms of quantifying all the misinformation being spewed by Big Hydrogen.
Another interesting point I learned recently is that hydrogen fuel tanks have to be replaced at there expiry date of 15yrs.
I knew 'green' Hydrogen was a bit of on con, but I never really knew how bad it was. Great episode.
Excellent video, can you please make a shorter edit that would be easier for people to view and share? I believe that could really help the discussion.
I never write things down when watching a video, but after 5 minutes, I restarted the video with my notebook in hand.
- the bad news is that even the greenest hydrogen solution turns out to be a much dirtier than any purely electric solution, and
- the good news is that even the cheapest hydrogen solution is much more expensive than the most expensive purely electric solution.
This is probably the best and most objective discussion on hydrogen and energy needs. There is not one superfluous sentence after the introduction.
A brilliant talk. Such a clear message.
When we have stopped using petrol and diesel the amount of shipping will drop, no more massive tankers burning that dirty bunker fuel and all the energy that's waisted turning crude oil into petrol and diesel. Get an EV save the world
Amazing and insightful interview with a very knowledgeable gent... With two large iron ore companies in WA investing in hydrogen plants, I'm now wondering what their long term plan is? We don't have smelting plants here, all the ore gets shipped to China, so why are they investing in hydrogen production? Maybe that is the long term plan, to produce steel here and value-add to the commodity before shipping it off...
I spoke to a engineer from Jaguar Land Rover and he said they are developing hydrogen fuel cells for there vehicles. I tried not to be too blunt about the flaws of hydrogen as he is a family friend, but it doesn’t actually make your confident on the future of the company.
Oh deary me. Daimler Benz and Ford spent $billions with Ballard trying to get fuel cells to be economic at automobile size, and gave up.
The Japanese are still trying, I guess, but Toyota dwarfs JLR, so has a bit of spare cash to waste. JLR needs to call a halt to that pronto if it wants to survive at all.
I would say this is driven by the fossil fuel industry's intention to remain in business by promoting the use of Hydrogen which is currently produced 98% of the time by using fossil fuels. It clearly doesn't stack up on any true metric against simply using electricity generated from renewables and nuclear utilising storage where needed.
The sheer idiocy of talking about alternatives to powering vehicles IN ORDER TO LOWER CO2? Seriously? None are very good at it - but MASS carpooling is - and you can do it now.. are you carpooling? Of course not! Which reduces all these "alternatives' to a sales pitch. Carpooling can eliminate 75% of city vehicle CO2 over night with no change at all to the vehicles. While it is true transport is only 16% of all CO2 it seems the only thing people talk about - because - they want to sell EVs. Rather stupid; I can reduce CO2 much more efficently by putting 7 people into a gasoline Hummer than an EV powered by a grid 85% powered by fossil fuels.. Of course if your car is a Tesla like EV then it weighs 4500 lbs and takes a lot more energy to make and to move a Corollla hybrid weighs 2800 lbs; so that is nearly twice the CO2 to make, and move.. particularly if you don't share the ride and you need 8 Teslas vs 1 Hummer. So Why Robert - if you are about saving the earth - aren't you putting #1 on your push CARPOOLING. Oh and didn't you say you drove 12,000 miles on solar? A normal array of 10 300 kWh cells will only make a model 3 travel 30 miles if in bright sunlight 8 hours a day.. where are you living Palm Springs? Perhaps you mean over several years? Such an array in Palm springs would be capable of moving a Tesla Model 3 LR - 30x365 miles about 11,000 miles. Of course that means you have to have a house, with solar panels - MORE CO2, and a power wall more lithium and more CO2. You have to have a place to charge it near your house which means you don't live in an apartment; you dont park on the street. Or do you have a Prius Plug in hybrid which can easily drive those 30 miles all electric off the grid and take 1/2 the energy to make and 1/2 the energy to move.. so a much smaller battery will still give you that range.
Of course you have your fantasy world where fossil fuels are going to be replaced by what wind and solar? As a percentage of world production those are so small (under 4%) they arent even keeping up with the increases in demand; in other words the percentage of grid powered by fossil fuels is GROWING HIGHER.
Solution - carpooling ; not a solution - EVs, Hyrdogen, ethanol (not bad especially if combined with the plug in hybrid) or anything other than jogging.
The good Professor certainly hasn't covered all means of making hydrogen; for example iron filings into acid makes hydrogen and costs zero electrical input; so all the hydrogen forth coming costs no CO2. The Professor also says - sure we have to make fertilizer, the hydrogen is a byproduct - so fine make your blue/green hydrogen from that who says it has to power all the vehicles on the planet? Lithium certainly isn't either as there isnt' enough produced, there won't be and they are not very green even if you live in palm springs.
Why waste your time typing that essay. No one is going to read it. 20% of people can work from home.
Well that pretty much puts an end to that thread. Dear World: please can we concentrate on the stuff that matters now.
People has a romantic image of hydrogen cars because they emits water.
Hydrogen should only be used when created from renewables (green) and not be used in homes or cars but only be used in clean powerstations close to buildings so you can reuse the waste heat to heat those buildings in winter. And the electricity can be used in heatpumps to increase the heating energy.
That requires that we find a very efficient way of producing hydrogen from renewable electricity.
And it looks like we are going to 90%+ in the future.
Ever watched Star Trek?
"You canna' change the laws of Physics"....?
.
Scotty was correct.
You need energy to break the bond.
Energy costs money (even green, "spare" energy)
It's a non-starter.
Actually the “H” stands for Hopium. It’s highly addictive.
I would love for Robert to talk to Ian Scott of Moltex Energy Ltd a British nuclear power company. Their molten chloride (table salt) reactors literally burn nuclear waste with a mind-boggling list of advantages.
This is brilliant! Finally understand the problem. Thank you!
It sounds like the Danish government who is about to create so called 'energy islands', where they will convert huge amounts of wind energy to hydrogen and stake the future on that, would benefit from a talk with David.
Governments can at least be relied on to make the wrong decisions regarding technology...
@@chrisheath2637
Politicians are generally "not that bright"....?
@@rogerstarkey5390 They have agendas which are not always aligned with the best science available. Well funded lobbyists can push non-optimum solutions...(as the prof mentioned - a hydrogen "future" suits the fossil fuel industry very well...and politicians have another thousand and one things to deal with. I don't expect politicians to be scientists...
I got a zappi off the back of watching and listening to Robert, I’m very pleased with it, I hope to get solar and batteries within the next couple of years.
Great informative talk, will share this to all the negative comments. Also when the world moves away from fossil fuels the shipping will be reduced as well.
I'm sorry I don't normally 'help the algorithm' by commenting, but this really was excellent. Interesting, informative and plausible.
I concur, so I do
What a fantastic interview. It’s great to have the record set straight by someone who is qualified to speak about it. His depth of knowledge across many so sectors was astounding. Thanks.
Brilliant, I had no idea that Hydrogen was so expensive to produce, glad that I have an electric car
Great discussion on the realities of problems of using hydrogen as a fuel, YT Auto Expert John Cadogan made many/all of these claims in his episode, “Everything wrong with Hydrogen for ICE cars”, 3 years ago, but the policy makers still want to go down this road.
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant! I've learned a lot from this. Thank you both!
We need this type of guy inputting Government, to keep policy on track, thanks both for informing us about hydrogen which is very much needed, especially for those that are Pro Hydrogen! I have learnt so much here, I need to replay again to absorb the fine details.
48:15 - 18 tankers of hydrogen to deliver the same energy as one tanker of diesel. That alone makes it a complete non-starter. The logistics would be insane. At peak times you simply couldn't deliver it fast enough - and if you could there would be traffic jams caused by hydrogen tankers. I'm going to share this everywhere someone suggests hydrogen is a viable alternative.
I went to a net zero conference run by the Scottish government and there was one session on hydrogen. The guys are pushing their hydrogen busses in Aberdeen and trying to float a hydrogen pilot distribution for heating in Methal. There is a hydrogen production target as well. I was aware of most of the arguments and raised some of them at the presentation. This just pushed my understanding of the problems to another level. Thank you for that insight.
Are the H buses still running in Aberdeen.I haven't been into the city for a while but heard they weren't very reliable.
A German town just ended its trial of hydrogen trains too and plan to replace them with battery trains (until they can get the infrastructure in place for proper electrification)
@@trialsted The absurd issue is that the Brexit supporting company JCB has been adapting its engines to run on hydrogen too. Not even using fuel cells and high efficiency electrical drives. This along with carbon capture and storage is the holy grail of many that is doomed to never succeed.
@@douglasrogers3918 yes, craziness, although arguably fuel cells aren't appreciably more efficient than a compression ignition engine.