Train Simulator 2018 - Route Learning: Edinburgh to London Kings Cross (MK4 DVT // Class 91)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2025
- Welcome to this special episode of the route learning series! Made due to popular demand, this video is the culmination of some 40 hours of work to put together! Utilising the four routes available which cover the East Coast Main Line, in this episode we travel the full 393 miles from Edinburgh in Scotland down to London Kings Cross station. Following the real life timetable of train 1E02, the 05:48am service from Edinburgh Waverley to London Kings Cross, this video is edited for as seamless a transition as possible between the different routes. Our stops along the way include Dunbar (31:10), Berwick-Upon-Tweed (54:08), Alnmouth (1:14:33), Morpeth (1:28:42), Newcastle (1:43:17), Durham (1:56:02), Darlington (2:13:50), York (2:40:04), Doncaster (3:02:43), Newark North Gate (3:24:29), Peterborough, (3:50:39) and Kings Cross. Please see below for a list of all DLC and modifications used.
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DLC & Mods Used:
DTG Class 91:
store.steampow...
Armstrong Powerhouse Class 91/MK4 Enhancement Pack:
www.armstrongp...
BH Reskins Class 91 Pack:
/ 430356467097416
Just Trains Newcastle to Edinburgh Route:
www.justtrains....
DP Simulation East Coast Main Line North East:
www.dpsimulati...
Creative Rail York to Peterborough Modern:
store.steampow...
DTG East Coast Main Line South:
store.steampow...
See's video. Makes a cuppa. Grabs biscuits. Hops into bed. Casts onto TV... Bliss. Cheers as always!
This would take me a year to do.... Well done mate!! :D
QwertyAfro I have subbed to querty afro and pgt rail
QwertyAfro OMG HII
just like a real driver
I'm binge watching all your videos. Thanks so much for making all of these and taking the time and effort to create such awesome videos. Please don't stop!
when watching your video* “ahh, 5 hours well invested”
when actually doing the session* “FFS, where’s London man!?” closes sim*
I'm glad you enjoyed my video more than playing the game lol :p
PTGRail is this a route to buy or is it done with a mode? I am asking because I know you can not find on TS add on a route so long, usually they are about an hour long..
@@annasmith1826 It's four separate routes however Alan Thomson has released a ECML merge (January 2019) which is all 4 routes together.
@@PTGRail Now I got a really good question. what's with the train bouncing up and down during driving?
Just a couple of notes I want to make for this video:
1. I have put the video time for each stop in the video description, so you can more easily jump to a specific part of the journey if you would like to do so. I realised it might otherwise be a challenge sifting through all 4.5 hours to find the part you want!
2. I realise that in some of the shots of the train moving, the DVT number differs from the static shots. This is unfortunately due to the way I recorded the cutaway shots, and I didn't realise the DVT number was different until after I had recorded them!
3. As with all recent videos, I have captioned in every crossing, tunnel, station, and junction name that was provided in my track atlas. However, some appeared to be missing. In addition to that, I decided to drop some of the smaller crossings such as "No.161 public footpath', as I felt it adds nothing to the video and captioning is a fiddly and time consuming business!
4. I am aware that I misspelled 'Hitchin' as 'Hitchen'!
And finally, enjoy! :)
PTGRail Awesome video! 🤣
Great video
PTGRail I loved the Video , thank you for making it.
I was on the Wrexham & Shropshire train one sunny Saturday in 2008. The route was between London Marylebone and Wrexham General via Telford and Shrewsbury. Any plans of doing it on Simulator?
uhegbu ok nice
A truly fantastic video, especially the Edinburgh Waverley to Newcastle Central Station. I used to commute (often on a daily basis from Newcastle to Edinburgh). Those days, the train left Newcastle at 06:30 and arrive (if on time) at 08:07 in Edinburgh. Remember well stopping at Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar and Edinburgh. Now live in Stannington and often use the road that incorporates Stannington Crossing (and nearly always have to wait for the train to pass). Sadly do remember at least one of the Morpeth train accidents where if my memory serves me right, residents of a Bungalow awoke to a carriage in their garden. Once again, thank you for the fantastic video, pure brilliance…
91110 “Battle of Britain Memorial Flight” is particularly special as it holds the Class 91’s (IC225) speed record of 162 mph which is the fastest speed achieved on British Railways!! Thought that’d be cool little fact for you all!!🚅😃
ooo thnx!
Does the Eurostar count as the fastest speed on British Railways because that goes over 180mph.
@@tristanfielding20 The Eurostar is ofcourse faster (I believe the ONLY thing to run in the UK that would be faster), but I think to count it as a British record would be somewhat strange because its a French style of train, running serives that exclusively go to France or beyond, on a line that uses a non-British signalling system 🤣. Its likely the 91 will forever hold the record for the fastest British-designed locomotive.
@@concofps maybe high speed 2 will beat it... if it is finished during my life time
@@combinetheelite It probably will. I worded it a bit vague - I sort of meant that the 225 is likely the fastest train that will ever run on the 'classic network', ie with lineside signalling etc. In fact I think its now considered that any speed above 125 would REQUIRE cab-signalling now. Progress in that department has been slowed by the presence of level-crossings which do not mix well with a cab signalling system.
I’m late to the party, but thank you for the effort put into this one. This is a lot of work and it paid off.
Thanks for the comment! It’s very prescient considering the upload I just released today - which beats this video by 25 mins! :)
@@PTGRail I didn't even see it!
I love your voice also we all appreciate the hard work you have put into this
srroy guys!
Amazing work Peter. What an achievement. Having done this journey in real life, it’s great to see it on here. I love all the information you provide too. 10/10.
Thanks, Siobhan! Did you manage to get to the end in the end? I'm glad you've been enjoying this video. :)
I can hear trains rattling over the Chevington Loop points from my house 😃. I watch this over and over. Love your posts.
Graphics are mind-blowing 😮
The AWS beeps and horns and the driver vigilance warning noises are so realistic
10 out of 10 for just having the sheer balls for attempting this. Great video.
Bloody hell, what an achievement!
I know right!? btw hai mani
Yes, it's amazing. Newcastle station, which I am familiar with, is very well rendered, footbridge and all, but it's not just that, the visible buildings in the town such as the car park at Manors, and the castle keep, and many others, are almost like photographs. It's astonishing that it only took 40 hours to do, it would have taken me 400.
Was anyone when they first saw this video like "HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!"? Well done PTGRail!
Thanks man! :)
This is was probably the longest video ive have watched on TH-cam but wow it worth it i managed to watch it today in one day thankfully so I'm happy. Loved the information and facts you gave out it felt like a real journey switching to different maps. The ideas you suggest wasnt too bad that would be cool to see in the distant future you was actually the second channel I subbed to in TH-cam. Im glad you still make amazing content to this day now take that well earned rest you earned it. Im also surprised you remembered the whole route! :-)
Nice to hear that you like newark northgate as that's coincidentally my home station and its quite a busy station 🙂
Just amazing ! The video was just posted 1 day before my holidays, making an England & Scotland tour by train. And I just did Edinburgh -> York then York -> London in real life.
It's quite surprising to see it in the simulator when I come back.
Very nicely done. I love the attention to the details and the variety of routes and trains. It's also easy to understand for people who doesn't have English as their native language.
So you now get the congratulations from a Belgian train commuter ! :-)
When you start getting so in-depth it feels like a movie.. NO SLEEP FOR ME (Great video keep it up like always)
Haha! I hope you enjoyed the "movie" and got some sleep in the end? :p
Wow ! Just finshed watching this video. What a briliant run. Thankyou ! The 91s are probably my favourite loco too, just beating a Class 86 & EM1 / Class 76. Had many trips from Retford on them since 1991. Once again, thankyou for the time & effort taken in this. I create a few of my own scenarios so know what can be involved.
Quality of these videos are outstanding.
Thank you! :)
i know right. the stations actually look the the real ones amazing
AMAZING video! Seriously, its been so interesting getting into your channel recently and watching your videos from down the years, and seeing how youve developed. It really feels like youve grown in confidence and honed your edits and style, and this feels like the magnum opus of all that - you sounded like you were having a LOT of fun recording this! Great work. Have a nice cuppa tea after this run, youve earned it! :)
Thank you, I really appreciate your comments! It's clear to me that I've grown a lot since starting this channel, both in confidence and ability. I've worked hard to hone my skills and try to make the best videos I can. Recently, someone commented on one of my early videos and I cringed a bit when hearing myself speak in the commentary! This was a great video to record, and it's even better that others are now enjoying the fruits of my work. I hope you stick around to see what comes in the future! :)
………and you beat Alan Thomson to it! Nice job PTG Rail, you have made some TS history!
Haha, thanks! I'm glad to have been able to present this journey in the way I have :)
Managed to sit through it all, although I did nod off a few times. Tremendous work.
Glad you got there in the end, even through your tiredness! :)
It is going to take me a few sessions to watch it all but I am truly amazed that you've completed making this and so soon after having announced you would! Well done!!!
I hope you enjoy watching it over those sessions. It was a challenge putting this together, but definitely worth it! :)
Thinking back to memories along this busy route. 2011, I was on the Grand Central, London Kings Cross to Sunderland. 2015, during the Great Britain Railtour, I travelled from Edinburgh to Peterborough. Delays on the West Coast main line was the reason.
First of all... I discovered this channel this very morning... and what I saw ..is very very interesting...
Never been in Scotland before but ( despite it is a simulation...but very good...) it gave me an overall inpression of the sights over there... very well done...Hence my description...:-))
At about 2:21 you told about your plans to do in the near future..(as I understood it )..
I am very eager to follow these plans...:-)
In the mean time ,thank you very much for all your time and efforts in presenting this great video..
Drive save...:-))
Greets from Holland.... Frank...:-))
First visit to the channel (that I'm aware of) and wow what a long video. Had to span it 9ver the course of about 36 hours just because of its length. Awesome work
Also, I like all of the ideas you presented a little past the midway point in the video. I'd especially like the series about railway accidents and how they've impacted safety measures put in place over the years
Welcome to my channel! I'm glad that you enjoyed watching this rather long video over the course of a couple of days. I honestly didn't think people would want to watch a video so long, but it seems I was wrong.
Thanks for your feedback. I'm currently thinking about how to go about making these series. Hoping to get something in production later this year. In the mean time, feel free to check out my other videos. :)
AWESOME! AWESOME! AWESOME PTG.Ever thought of giving Alan Thomson driving lessons! I just wish I had your patience. Please keep up the excellent work.
Haha, thanks! I'd happily give him some lessons if he would take them :p
The level of detail is phenomenal, love it!
Well done. A really great job. I have traveled this route and really enjoyed seeing it from the cab. Also found your facts and figeres interesting with a very professional delivery. Keep up the good work.
A truly herculean epic, Peter, and a brilliant production. My brain needed an overnight stop while the train was in Durham station. Re your proposed other ventures, I always look at what you put up, especially videos relating to actual train operations. Your ides sound very promising.
Thank you, Roger. I feel like this is my 'magnum opus' of route learning videos. I understand your need for a break on such a long journey! I'm going to do more research into pursuing these different avenues and see where this channel can go.
Hey from India!!!! Loved it and been waiting for a long time for this type of video. Loved it!
Absolutely Amazing quality, keep coming back to chip away at the journey and im blown away every time! Thankyou for taking the time and effort to produce this PTG 😁
Many thanks for your comment! I’m glad that you’ve enjoyed this video. It’s my pleasure :)
this is absurlutly brill thank you once again for yet another awesome thrill
Thanks, Paul! :)
Another great route learning video. Was also great to see the BBMF livery class 91. Lest We Forget.
Your comments at around the 24 minute mark regarding real world drivers not covering the whole route are spot on. Even in the LNER days when 'The Flying Scotsman' was non-stop, the LNER introduced corridor tenders so the crews could change over on the move.
Bloody hell 4h 39m video!? This is heaven. I'm going to enjoy this! Thanks 😀
I hope you enjoyed! :)
PTGRail I did! Great 👍🏻
I love your idea to examine railway accidents on this channel. I am also a keen viewer of 'Air crash investigation / Mayday' and of 'Seconds from disaster' but so far the only British train or train related accidents covered have been the Paddington Rail crash and the King's Cross fire.
Just off the top of my head Polmont, Invergowrie, Hatfield, Southall, Potters Bar, Great Heck, Greyrigg, Eltham well Hall, Moorgate, Armagh, Thr Tay bridge collapase and Clapham jn. would all be fascinating accidents to delve into.
You could also do 1 programme that explored both the Bellgrove and Newton crashes as the route causes to each where almost identical and they occurred within a little over 2 years of one and other in the same city.
I watched this over a couple of days, excellent video. Worth all the work you put into creating it
awesome video. was good to see the Newcastle-Southampton Voyager as I often take that service from Doncaster to Birmingham for Uni,
Wow that was brilliant, needed a at seat trolley service for this one ;) Well done Pete and I like your ideas for the documentary style subjects you have for the channel.
Thanks Paul, glad you enjoyed this one! Hope the trolley wasn't too expensive ;)
I work at Doncaster Woodyard, UpDecoy. and Belmont (Doesn’t look quite like that in real life) as a shunter and we see these trains go by all the time. Including the one you’re using on this simulation. Going driving soon though, with a different company.
Love the railway life.
As a footnote, my old man drives for TPE on the 185s.
When you stopped at York, you should of stopped at the end. It is when they (vtec now LNER) are going north on platform 5 the back of the train is where the front of your train was. Excellent video though!!!
This is great to play on my livingroom tv when I'm reading.
I’m glad you enjoy playing this in the background :)
Absolutely brilliant route learning video will be watching it again
Thanks! I'm glad that you enjoyed this video :)
Whew! Took me about two days to watch it all. Thanks for quite the effort. Now I guess the USA Marias Pass run can be a viable run soon. Did notice one oopsie - When the train crossed Welwyn Viaduct, the caption read Digswell Viaduct. Also, due to unfortunate timing, a leaving 225 set blocked the view of the new trackage section that Thameslink uses to connect to the line that (ultimately) goes to Brighton.
Thanks for watching! The Marias Pass will be coming hopefully within the next few weeks. I’ve always known that viaduct as Welwyn Viaduct, but my track atlas said it’s Digswell Viaduct, hence the discrepancy.
and... POW!
RIP BUS
6969-6969
CAUSE OF DEATH: idk bad dev group
I haven't been back to this channel for a while. But greeted by this amazing video.
I thought of doing this idea but though against it as I would probably fall asleep recording it.
I'm glad you were greeted by a video you like! Thanks for stopping by again, I appreciate it :)
Wow! Well done! I'm going to save this as a treat for me to watch on Friday so I can watch from start to finish. XD
I hope you enjoy watching it! :)
Fantastic video mate. The graphics are good and your commentary is very informative about the workings and procedures of driving a train for someone like myself who is unfamiliar to what happens in the cab. Persist with your quest to get that job on the trains. It will happen. Good luck. hi
3:02:58 ....aaah i see the train carrying me into town has arrived lol
If I had a penny for every time PTG said speed limit. Id be a millionaire 🤣
Great video as always and really gave me a pleasant pass time.
This is one of the best Train Simulator videos I have watched! Keep it up🙂
Love the amount of work you put in your vids! One of the best channels i have subbed to
Thank you, I really appreciate that. I hope you continue to enjoy my videos well into the future! :)
this is brilliant. honestly some of the gems you come across on you tube. i travel this line from doncaster to durham and back frequently its amazing how accurate the stations actually are feels like your there lol and scenary like durham cathedrel and and the railway museum in york brilliant vid well done subbed n belled
Many thanks! I’m glad that you enjoyed this video. I hope you enjoy more of my content in the future.
A epic video and a epic route I go from Wakefield to Kings cross every 2 weeks and i still enjoy the journey
The line from Selby that joins at 2:52:44 is the original East Coast Main Line, which went via Selby to York. The Selby diversion was put in in the 1980s and the northern section of the old main line (between Selby and York) is now gone.
Wow just shows what a disaster that would have been if you'd cleaned up that red car.
A real tour de force. I like the highlighting of linespeeds. I would like PTG doing the Cornwall main line.
On an 802. Other trains have been done on sim and film already.
You prepare well for each sim journey.
im amazed at the details on buildings around were i know the landscape
Absolutely love this, PTG. Maybe love kudos and admiration for this. You deserve way more than 15k subscribers and hope you get more success! Also, just joined your Patreon page
4:39:00 :o Uhhh yesssssss
I hope you enjoyed! :)
I'm glad they got most of the graphic right on the station and I work on the trains for a living so I know how every train station layout and I'm based in Peterborough
This makes me want to give up my aspirations of becoming a software developer and to be a train driver
I always play these train simulation videos when I want to get to sleep. Even more effective than listening to 'Chill Out' by The KLF....👍😴💤
So many people have told me these videos help them get to sleep. I've always wondered whether that's a compliment or an insult haha ;)
PTGRail It's not meant as an insult. I really enjoy your videos... 🙂
Haha, I know it’s not! :p
I’ve just always found it amusing that some people think my voice/videos are good sleep aids! :)
It took awhile but I finally finished the journey. Great job PTG.
Glad you got there in the end and enjoyed the journey! :)
Still Faulty... Fitter won't fix...
That was a nice touch.
I noticed that just today when i drove this train
Its a funny way to not have a functioning clock
Well done AP 😂😂
As of June 2020, the class 91s are still running as well as the Azumas, the Class 800 and 801s, the latter I think five car units. One of the sets was used in a promotional 'Intercity' advert in 1991.
I'd surely like to see documentaries about the real Railway in the UK. As I am from Austria it is very interesting to get an idea of how Britains Railways are working. Also, it would be great to see a new video about an austrian TS route on your channel. There are several good routes by RSSLO and there is a lot of great freeware rolling stock available on RW Austria. And I can recommend the JustTrains Railjet Pack...
Awesome! It’s part of several ideas I’ve got for this channel. I love Austrian railways! In real life I’ve travelled between Munich and Innsbruck via Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Munich and Salzburg, Prague and Vienna, and Vienna and Budapest. The Railjet is a fantastic train, and i would love to drive one on an RSSLO Route. However, I don’t feel knowledgable enough to create my own scenario.
Great to hear! The Railjet is a great train indeed, but i think the seats in standart class are a bit too hard. It is quite annoying to sit on them all the way between Salzburg an Vienna or even longer. But the Taurus is great. 😅 Sorry, I can't help you in terms of scenarios, but actually, rail traffic in Austria is by far not that varied than in the UK. And, did you visit Salzburg or did jou just pass through? 😅
You should try a Thameslink Class 700 in the U.K., they make Railjet Standard Class seem luxurious by comparison! It’s like sitting on a rock or something. We went to Salzburg for the day and travelled by Meridian train from Munich. Visited the Red Bull Hanger at the airport, the Haus Der Natur, took a walk along the banks of the Salzach River, had dinner, and visited a jazz bar. All before taking the last train back to Munich just before midnight!
PTGRail I travelled on a Class 700 from London to Gatwick Airport, but it was quite busy and I didn't get a seat. 🤣 The Haus der Natur and the Hangar are my favorite Museums in Salzburg 😅. How was your journey with Meridian at night? The 23:50 service in the other direction from Munich back to Salzburg is commonly known as the "Säuferexpress" as most of the passengers did drink a bit too much beer. 😅
I could say it’s a lucky escape, but sitting even on those seats is probably marginally better than standing! They were both awesome. The Haus Der Natur was particularly so, i really appreciate enjoyed it! :)
The journey was good, except my friend got stopped 3 times in ten minutes by different groups police wanting to see his passport - whereas they only wanted to see mine once. As he’s a black guy, we got a feeling that might have played a part! I had a bit too much beer myself that night lol :p
I'm not a driver but I do work in the railways, from my understanding you engage the DRA if stopped at a danger signal or if you pass a single yellow (cautionary) signal and then arrive at a station without a starting signal - because when you passed that single yellow that means the next signal (beyond the station you've stopped at) should be at danger - you would also engage the DRA. It's been identified as a significant SPAD risk, that drivers pass a single yellow, stop at a station without a starting signal and then accelerate out of the station as normal, having forgotten that the last signal they passed was a single yellow. They then might see the signal at danger too fast and too late to prevent a SPAD.
Congratulations on such an effort! I managed to watch the entire thing in just over 6 hours :D, certainly very relaxing. On a note, maybe for future videos you could continue to incorporate more than one route for a single video. Of course it doesn't have to be a long journey like this one, but it would definitely make things more interesting and would add different route variations.
Thanks! I'm glad you were able to watch the whole video and enjoyed it!
If there are journeys where this can be done, I will see about doing it more in the future :)
Edinburgh to Glasgow Central via Carstairs is one of my favourites, using the DP Simulation Carstairs extension and WCML North. A nice quick journey where you could use the Class 91 again.
You figure out how to produce (cheaply) slow tv programs!
Yesterday I was watching the railcam at Peterborough and I saw 91111 and 91110 just seconds apart.
Also just by chance, 91110 was actually the locomotive that achieved the 162mph record, at the time however it was numbered 91010
Very impressive video! Much respect from Switzerland 🇨🇭
Thank you! :)
Looks good, would be nice to see the stations more active with people
One day when I have 4 hours spare time I will watch this fully.
31:30
Edit: don’t mind me I’m just time stamping where I got to on the video. I also left a like 🙌🏻
No problem. I hope you enjoy watching this video! :)
Unidentifiable Smurf why would you put edit if you didn’t edit it
Well done for recording and driving the whole route!
@58:35 07:00 til 23:00 for Whistle Boards, also there are specific working for each Whistle Board for use (for example Meadowhall as a Whistle Board for trains not calling at Meadowhall, so XC trains have to Whistle going through Meadowhall but local stopping service can disregard it)
Wow !! Really impressive tutorial and graphics thanks
Thanks for the comment! :)
I did it. I watched the ENTIRE thing. Nicely done!
Personally a Railway Accidents Mini Series would be a Fantastic idea! Especially if you do go into What Lessons we're learned from the Accident in which you are referring to in the Episode
I think that would definitely form a part of it. There's so many different accidents to go from that this could be quite a big series in the long run, as long as my subscribers want to see it. :)
Thats amazing dude!!! I watched the whole thing!!
Great video, coming from a freight train driver very nicely done 👍
Thanks! Where/what do you drive? I hope my technique was realistic. :)
Love to see the London Paddington to Penzance. This has been great.
Love the 91 and this is a top video, congrats!
Thank you :)
great time killer, and an amazing one too! PTGRail you are a madman for doing this but I have been looking forward to it. Your efforts are greatly appreciated by me. Hopefully in the near future I'll will be able to give you a donation on Patreon 😊
Thank you Luke, I'm glad that you enjoyed this mad video. I must say that I did question my sanity just a little when working on this one! :)
I was questioning my sanity watching it till 5 in the morning 😂 but yeah well done.
Wow, really well done. I can't stress enough my admiration, for your dedication and creativity. Monster effort and great show! B.P.
["Thank you for this great video really enjoyed the journey - I have now got all the files necessary to do this journey myself - now I have to find a few hours to do it."]
"An unpleasant derailment"? That's an understatement if ever I've heard one.
It’s the British way of saying is was goddamn awful lol XD
great job mate! superb video and very well presented
Please do all of the suggestions that you said, I would love to see them.
P.S: love your videos even though they are so long. Keep up the good work!
Was gonna suggest something like this... No need now 😂 honestly this is amazing!
Thanks, glad you like this video! :)
Great journey apart from the bus lol....thank you!!
New to train sim not this but TSW on Xbox X got to say I’m totally addicted . Great video thanks hope the east coast line come to TSW
Roman linley I really do hope they do set in early 2000s
well done Peter an excellent presentation
Thanks, David! :)
Great video and nice commentary throughout!
Awesome video, you're inspiring me to learn (some of) these routes myself :D
You are correct in saying TPE used to operate Class 170s - they were used alongside 158s before the 185s were introduced. However they've been cascaded to Chiltern fairly recently (2015-ish?) to enable services from Marylebone to Oxford. I believe the 185s on the East Coast will soon be replaced by Hitachi Class 802s, able to take advantage of the overhead lines.
The 170s if I remember correctly operated to Hull, as the 185s couldn't operate at full speed due to weight problems. The 170s were transferred to Chiltern in 2016 when the new TPE franchise started, which transferred the Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere routes to Northern so there were more 185s available for Hull services
Just one minor point, The correct spelling for the station at the junction for the Cambridge branch is HITCHIN not Hitchen.
At Alnmouth, Morpeth and Berwick-upon-Tweed if you do this bit again you need to get the front of the cab (so the cab door is just off the platform) as they stop like this in real life and just squeeze on
Also Alnmouth is pronounced Aln-mouth or if your a Geordie Alnmoth
Great video unbalievable amount of time and effort put into this you should be very proud
@@droge192 suppose it depends on how you say it, I don't know what I say because I'm there that often