No field telephones? This is a major issue. Only the US Army from mid-1944 had sufficient high quality tactical radios from division down to platoon. The Germans had radios in their tanks and most AFVs, but their tactical radios basically went down to company and there still weren't enough for all the formations. The Soviets and Japanese rarely had tactical radios down to company level. Even tanks only had receivers for platoon leaders. Initially short on radios, the Soviet made sets had QC problems, short battery life and wandering frequency issues. Only in the last year of the war with the large number of Allied produced radios donated through Lend-Lease did the Soviets reach equality with German formations, who had simply lost too many radios and created too many formations. The Soviets relied heavily on field telephones, even on the offensive, especially the high quality US made field phones and water-proof wire. The lack of quality radios was one of the reasons for so much direct fire and preplanned artillery fires. The Germans also relied on field telephones, especially on the defensive within the company defensive positions up through regiment. Radios were usually conserved for reserve units conducting counterattacks and calls for fire. The British were better off than the Germans but not quite in the Americans league. US radios and field phones and wire were top notch. Even more important was that the tactical radios were FM, not AM, or line of sight. The Germans and Japanese had few FM electronic countermeasures and intercepts required being ILOS of the American radio. Radios were one of the big advantages the US ground forces had over the Axis.
Also, when the phones and radios didn't work or were in a Panzer somewhere, you dropped back on messengers, sound C2 systems (ie. bugles, whistles) or visual signals (flares, smoke, flags). That was why the common doctrine and reliance on battle drills were so important to the Germans as they could rely on the initiative of the junior leaders, but within the overall plan. Messengers on foot travel no more than 4mph or so, which means time delay from a regimental to a company HQs could be half-hour to an hour unless the messenger was using a horse, bicycle or motorcycle or the terrain was appropriate for such transportation, which still means a 15 minute C2 cycle. The greater distribution and quality of German radios were a reason for how they got inside the decision cycle of opponents like the French or Soviets.
It is definitely a shortcoming of the series for sure. Italy in CM:FI suffers alot from this, and I imagine if the Battle of France was ever made that the French would suffer too.
It'd be interesting to make! It's finding the time that's the hard part. Something I hadn't considered is that the Company actually remains square all the way through- there are always 4 elements at company level if you look beyond the rifle infantry.
I really enjoyed this one, great video! It's incredibly interesting to see what changes were made from a historical perspective, much more so than just from a game perspective IMO! I think the topic of "How and why X nations changed their TO&Es" would work fantastically well in a "The War Room" episode.
Part of me wants to compare the US infantry from CM WW2 to Cold War, to Shock Force, to Black Sea- I think that would be super interesting- but I'm also pretty sure that it would be a mammoth task.
@@usuallyhapless9481 honestly any future video like this would not need to be larger in scope than this, hell it could be smaller even, it's be suuuper interesting to see how some Russian battalion changed over the course of the war, and why those changes occurred! I can't express how good I found this video and how I think people will love it and would love more!
Great video! I’ve actually found German rifle grenades to be extremely effective against troops in buildings. I always take some if I have the points to spare.
Hey hap, i want to highlight another CMRT exclusive, because i find it quite important, because it compounds both the wehrmacht's manpower problems and shakes up company (and battallion level) organisation, tactics and equipment quite harshly, and really dumps a truckload of MP-44 in their laps. As you will see in the layout, it basicly turns one understrength Battallion into one overstrength Company with a, in my opinion, "reverse-trapez" formation, as you have 4 Platoons (company 1 & 2) which assault, and 2 Platoons (company 3) as a base of fire. Company 4 and the thrid platoon in company 1&2 are also very notable, because it provides integrated support for the assault, if they attack two seperate positions. What also struck me is the 2 LMGs per Rifle grougp, giving each of the Platoons in Company 3 5x light Machineguns. This is the layout of "Grenadier Battallion B", which becomes available in september 44 until the end of the war: Battallion HQ 2x P38 + 2x Kar. 98 HQ Support Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar.98 Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98 2IC Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar. 98 (one of these may be G43) HQ 3x MP-44 3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44 HQ 3x MP-44 3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44 HQ 2x MP40 + 1x Kar. 98 2x 81mm Mortar (on or off map) 2x 75mm IG (off map) Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98 2IC Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar. 98 (one of these may be G43) HQ 3x MP-44 3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44 HQ 3x MP-44 3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44 HQ 2x MP40 + 1x Kar. 98 2x 81mm Mortar (on or off map) 2x 75mm IG (off map) Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98 2IC Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar. 98 (one of these may be G43) HQ 2x MP-40 + 1x Kar. 98 3x Panzergrenadier 3x Leader (MP-40) 3x Asst. (Kar. 98, one of these will be scoped) 6x Gunner (MG34/42 one of these will be Kar. 98) 15x Riflemen (Kar. 98, one of these will be G43) HQ 2x MP-40 + 1x Kar. 98 3x Panzergrenadier 3x Leader (MP-40) 3x Asst. (Kar. 98, one of these will be scoped) 6x Gunner (MG34/42 one of these will be Kar. 98) 15x Riflemen (Kar. 98, one of these will be G43) Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98 HQ 1x MP-40 + 2x Kar.98 2x 120mm Mortar (offmap) 2x 120mm Mortar (offmap) HQ 1x MP-40 + 2x Kar.98 2x 120mm Mortar (offmap) 2x 120mm Mortar (offmap) HQ 1x MP-40 + 2x Kar.98 2x 75mm IG (on or off map)
My logistician heart is absolutely stupified by the madness that the 3rdR must've been behind the scenes ESPECIALLY if you consider the amount of different vehicles they had
Comes close to giving me a nosebleed sometimes. And all this German TOE doesn't include weapons and equipment from Western Europe to make up the numbers...
@@mumblerinc.6660I'd actually bet it was probably the easiest job. No fuel, no trains, no trucks, no horses, no ammunition, no carts, and most importantly most German generals didn't know what logistics was. Got to snooze all day.
I love to see these formation videos Hapless! I think a video covering the Italian forces would be really interesting, they’re such a difficult nation to use well in game and an explanation on their TOE and tactics would be great! Keep up the videos!
Great video, transitioning from the modern titles towards the ww2 series the many different unit competitions are pretty overwhelming and it's very helpful to get some detailed insight into the organizational setups and tactics, thanks for sharing
Well, inconsistencies are caused not only by german TO&Es being a mess, but also by the fact that CM's "Grenadier companies" 43A through 44A are "normal" rifle companies (Schutzenkompanie) and 45 is based on actual Grenadierkompanie (and it wasn't as simple as "grenadier companies replaced rifle companies - they existed simultaneously, with lots of Schutzenkompanies in Grenadier divisions). In addition, CM's TO&Es are very loosely based on the german ones (KStN). The most noticeable change - all logistical elements (which were present even on the platoon level) are cut. On the one hand - managing a bunch of wagons and cart won't fit well into the game. On the other - the company lost 20-30 men (depending on a specific variant in question) and at least on LMG. Plus, problems like low ammo for rifle grenades would be somewhat less-pressing. Also, starting from 43b, which is based on Schutzenkompanie n.A. (KStN 131n. approved in October 1943) there were "weapons reserves" (1-2 spare LMGs per platoon). While it can be argued that due to material shortages not all companies were lucky enough to have them, at least on the eastern front - they had (judging by weapons captured by the Soviets on german positions). Granted, "spare" machine guns were often not MG.34/42s, but older or captured weapons. Basically, a german company commander in all of the organization variants had a manpower and weapons reserve for about one platoon. More specifically (in all cases removal of "logisticians" is already taken for granted): 43A is based on an early war company organization that was officially active from February 1941 to October 1943. But light mortar teams are cut (at least on the Eastern front 50-mm mortars started to gradually vanish only in winter 43-44), platoon HQs are cut from 5 men to 3, company HQ - from 8 to 5, company anti-tank team (7 men with either AT-rifles, Grenaderifles or satchel charges and incendiaries) is cut. 43B (KStN 131n, October 1943) is surprisingly accurate. Although, company HQ is cut from 9 men to 5. 43C is the same, but reinforced from the regiment - companies didn't have panzerschreck teams, these are regimental assets. 44A is based on Schutzenkompanie n.A. (KStN 131n, May 1944). Panzerschrecks are from the regiment and company HQ is cut from 10 to 5. 44B is "transitional", so we put it to one side. 45 is based on Grenadierkompanie (KStN 131V, either from September or November 1944 - both variants are very similar, the main difference is what messengers are armed with), but CM's take on it is rather strange. Besides the usual reduction of company HQ (from 16 to 5 in this case) the changes are as follows: 1) There wasn't a panzerschreck section. So all panzerschrecks are from the regiment. And while 3 per company seems reasonable, to get 6 a company had to be very lucky - regimental anti-tank companies had only 18 of them. 2) The only people with G43s in the company were supposed to be 6 "marksmen" in the company HQ. And while they were called "marksmen", according to manuals they were company commander's personal reserve of best soldiers that he was supposed to use for all sorts of crucial tasks - from supporting assaults to counterattacks. 3) "Sturm platoons" were supposed to have 2 squads of just 9 guys with sturmgewehrs and 1 squad of 5 sturmgewehrs, 1 LMG and 3 rifle grenade launchers 4) There were supposed to be 2 "sturm" platoons and 1 "rifle" platoon per company, not the other way around. And at least according to the soviets (that, unsurprisingly paid great attention to Stg-armed units since the very first capture of Mkb.42 in 1942) generally, this KStN was really close to reality. The main issue was supply of G43s for the "marksmen" - in practice they were often armed with Stgs or sometimes SMGs instead. I strongly suspect that CM developers try to "Americanize" foreign TO&Es - make them as close to american template as possible without losing flavor entirely. It is also noticeable in Cold War and Black Sea (well, in these titles it is just very easy for me to spot), but with ww2 soviet and german formations it is sometimes even more pronounced.
Great video. I do think youre massively undervaluing just how much the TOEs affect combat effectiveness especially given they correspond to tactics changes especially later on. While a grenadier with an stg44 isnt more survivable to a arty hit compared to one with a k98k a platoon equipped with them can be because its going to be more mobile and quicker on the objective giving arty less time to work.
It sucks how underrated rifle grenades are in movies and games i heard of accounts during the Korean war when US Marines knocked out Chinese T-34's with rifle grenades that made them preferable to the M18 recoilless rifle in that specific role. But in video games its basically just a diet 40mm HE
Note that in the latest versions of the WWII CMs (Red Thunder and Fortress Italy) the grenadier squads do not get random single MP44s anymore, these only appear in the sturm squads. My guess is that this will also be retrofitted to new versions of Normandy and Final Blitzkrieg.
So far as I know, 2. Panzerdivision, 1. SS-Panzerdivision, and some select Fallschirmjager units were the only formations in Normandy to be issued the StG44.
@@ericbouchard7547 Not according to their status reports, I have the one for the Panzer Divisions and they don't report any for the time period. The only unit that has some in the documents is 275. Infanterie Division.
Really? That’s news to me. Well, that certainly changes my perspective on the matter. I’m almost hurt by the idea that the StG only shows up in the hands of a fortress division, of all places.
@@ericbouchard7547 Hi, dunno if you even remember this random conversation, but I did more research and it turns out you were half right. 2nd Panzer had no MP44s, but 1st SS Panzer indeed reported them in decent numbers. The same is true for 3rd FJG Division, however, 2nd FJG Division had none.
19:39 They are also now available in CM Final Blitzkrieg. Maybe it's been a thing with the steam release or they've been patched in recently. But they exist now.
@@usuallyhapless9481 There's not much to find on their official website (and a grenadier Bn is no where mentioned in the ToW except for some Panzer Grenadier Motorited 44B) and the DLC expands on 1945. You may be right but I think it's just been patched in. Btw did you record this video on the steam version?
7:20 wasn’t that the case for every infratry unit in 1943? It wasn’t until late war that infratry really stated to get good anti tank weapons (so all anti tank work was done by field guns and tank destroyers)
Somewhat. PIAT and Bazooka started production in 1942 and got into action before Panzershreck and Panzerfaust. I'd imagine they only really got into contact digging the Germans out of Tunisia in 43 though- I think the desert on either side of Tripoli probably saw AT Guns and other tanks dominate at range.
There was once a german machinegun team in italy who named themselves the "three musketeers". They were five men thou but had their own funny dialects and prosnalization to their uniforms. Appaerently some died and I can't find the link to this story anymore.
PRAISE THE LORD. I just started playing my first scenario using German Grenadier companies (CMFI), been busy with US Campaigns and the Fallschirmjäger. This video is coming at a goated time. Once again love the content and can't wait to see more.
Any chance for a look at U.S. rifle companies next? I'd always heard of them referred to as woefully under-armed (see: Bayonetstrength), but they're better off than a British rifle company.
US rifle coys are definitely on the cards. They get a pretty good going over in my Road to Montebourg series, but it's all split up and spread out. TLDR: the Garand is amazing, the BAR is underwhelming and 3x60mm mortars and 2 MMGs at Coy level is great.
Great video, I wanted to ask something about the 1944B and 1945 organizations. The use of sturmzugs with its soldiers armed with Stg-44 was used by volksgrenadier and panzergrenadier divisions. But was it done as well by the regular grenadiers from the infantry divisions? I am curious about if that happened in real life
Volksgrenadiers are probably worth mentioning in context of German Grenadiers, they seem to follow the Grenadier 45 organization but with two Strum and a Heavy Strum platoon rather than 1 and 2
This video has been up for a while but I have been looking it up while checking out the tables of organization and equipment and I am curious about some things. First of all, I wanted to comment that I noticed that the big organizational changes are done the next month after it's done in the tables, I suposse the units need time to reorganize. Why are units using the MG 34 exclusivelly till 1944 when the MG 42 was adopter in october 1942? Also I feel it's a little weird that in the 45B organization there's only one panzerfaust per platoon, it has been in mass production since september so it's understandable that there aren't many but I think there should be at least one per squad as well Could units be issued with enought Gewehr 41 or 43 to have complete squads armed with semiauto rifles? And finally something that always bugged me is where the german snipers, not with the small ZF41 scope, but real snipers with 4x or more magnification scopes.
So, in order :) : The MG42 will appear at pretty much any time in CM, becoming more common as time goes on. You can definitely find them in the mix in July 43, which is the earliest any of the games go to right now. Making the 6 TOE charts was enough of a PITA without getting into the granular details. There are Panzerfausts everywhere by 45. In theory the Germans probably could have equipped some squads entirely with semi-auto rifles... this probably happened somewhere (it was a big war) but it's not represented in CM. Finally, this video is just dealing with bog standard rifle company organisation. Snipers obviously existed, but they were not organically built in at company level.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Thanks for the response, seeing your videos makes me want to try the CM series, although more out of the interest of checking out the unit organizations rather than the gameplay Anyways, keep up with the great videos
Necro comment I realize but I cam back to this and do not own FI so maybe there are somewhere else in the TOE, but where are the anti tank rifles esp in the 43' organizations? The Germans built 44,000 of all models of their own ATRs, as well as capturing thousands of them from various sources (as well as some manufacturing in captured territory) and never actually managed to fully remove them from service. They formed a portion of the organic anti-tank of an infantry unit, and if CM doesn't have them then they missed a trick there I'm afraid.
Only the Soviets get ATRs in CM, so far at least. The 43 type organisation is a bit of an outlier specifically for CMFI, after that there are panzerfausts and panzershrecks everywhere
In the army we had 2 sayings that where always true: "Es ist kein Mensch, es ist kein Tier, es ist ein Panzergrenadier." and : "Piss im Wald nicht auf nen Stein denn es könnt ein Grennie sein" In english with lot less prosa: "Its neither human nor animal, its a Tank grenadier", "Dont pee on a stone in a forest it could be a dug in grenadiers helmet"
It's Combat Mission, specifically (mostly) Combat Mission: Fortress Italy. TH-cam has no idea what it is, so it thinks it's Men of War for some reason.
@@doubleseven1463 They are both here: www.battlefront.com/index.php?p=home The aim is to get them all on Steam (the modern ones are there already), but it's not happening as quickly as anyone would like. If you do decide to pick either of them up from Battlefront though, you'll get a free Steam key when they finally make it.
The easiest way to decide to pick the theatre you like best, then play the demo (on the website) and see if you like it. They're all on the same engine, it's just the details that change. Battlefront doesn't really do sales, except when they match the prices on Steam during Steam sales so they do tend to stay pretty pricey (another reason for trying the demos!).
Comparing a german infantry division's maneuver infantry company with a US infantry division's maneuver infantry company... if the division's support heavy weapons were evenly doled out to each company. German infantry company: one 75mm anti-tank gun one 75mm infantry gun two 81mm mortars one 120mm mortar one StugIII for every TWO companies two 105mm artillery guns US infantry company: three anti-tank guns one M10 Wolverine tank destroyer two Sherman tanks two 81mm mortars three 60mm mortars two 105mm artillery guns Each US infantry division had a tank battalion attached to it. This was in addition to the tank destroyer battalion, which had largely replaced the division's towed anti-tank battalion. If the US infantry division had a towed anti-tank battalion, each company would have four anti-tank guns, instead of three anti-tank guns and one M10 tank destroyer. Conclusion. A US "infantry" division was at least equal to a german panzer or panzer grenadier division, especially in view of the fact that all US infantry divisions were fully motorized with trucks. Also, it certainly seems the germans were much better than the US and British armies at concentrating what firepower they did have at crucial points.
It's worth noting for this entire video, that the concept of a "heavy machine gun" really only amounts to whether or not the MG34/42 has a tripod... this differs from the US or British who could have crew-served M2 .50 cal or Browning M1918 .30 cal HMGs which are purpose made for the role.
You cannot escape Scottish Corridor forever
Yeah, but I can try! :P
(Back to the Corridor next vid)
No field telephones? This is a major issue. Only the US Army from mid-1944 had sufficient high quality tactical radios from division down to platoon. The Germans had radios in their tanks and most AFVs, but their tactical radios basically went down to company and there still weren't enough for all the formations. The Soviets and Japanese rarely had tactical radios down to company level. Even tanks only had receivers for platoon leaders. Initially short on radios, the Soviet made sets had QC problems, short battery life and wandering frequency issues. Only in the last year of the war with the large number of Allied produced radios donated through Lend-Lease did the Soviets reach equality with German formations, who had simply lost too many radios and created too many formations. The Soviets relied heavily on field telephones, even on the offensive, especially the high quality US made field phones and water-proof wire. The lack of quality radios was one of the reasons for so much direct fire and preplanned artillery fires. The Germans also relied on field telephones, especially on the defensive within the company defensive positions up through regiment. Radios were usually conserved for reserve units conducting counterattacks and calls for fire. The British were better off than the Germans but not quite in the Americans league. US radios and field phones and wire were top notch. Even more important was that the tactical radios were FM, not AM, or line of sight. The Germans and Japanese had few FM electronic countermeasures and intercepts required being ILOS of the American radio. Radios were one of the big advantages the US ground forces had over the Axis.
Also, when the phones and radios didn't work or were in a Panzer somewhere, you dropped back on messengers, sound C2 systems (ie. bugles, whistles) or visual signals (flares, smoke, flags). That was why the common doctrine and reliance on battle drills were so important to the Germans as they could rely on the initiative of the junior leaders, but within the overall plan. Messengers on foot travel no more than 4mph or so, which means time delay from a regimental to a company HQs could be half-hour to an hour unless the messenger was using a horse, bicycle or motorcycle or the terrain was appropriate for such transportation, which still means a 15 minute C2 cycle. The greater distribution and quality of German radios were a reason for how they got inside the decision cycle of opponents like the French or Soviets.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing man.
I'd like to read more about this. Would you happen to have any books or articles you'd recommend?
It is definitely a shortcoming of the series for sure. Italy in CM:FI suffers alot from this, and I imagine if the Battle of France was ever made that the French would suffer too.
It would be interesting to see a video on square formations vs triangular formations.
It'd be interesting to make! It's finding the time that's the hard part.
Something I hadn't considered is that the Company actually remains square all the way through- there are always 4 elements at company level if you look beyond the rifle infantry.
@@usuallyhapless9481 The 4th element being a weapons squad/platoon?
I really enjoyed this one, great video! It's incredibly interesting to see what changes were made from a historical perspective, much more so than just from a game perspective IMO! I think the topic of "How and why X nations changed their TO&Es" would work fantastically well in a "The War Room" episode.
Part of me wants to compare the US infantry from CM WW2 to Cold War, to Shock Force, to Black Sea- I think that would be super interesting- but I'm also pretty sure that it would be a mammoth task.
@@usuallyhapless9481 honestly any future video like this would not need to be larger in scope than this, hell it could be smaller even, it's be suuuper interesting to see how some Russian battalion changed over the course of the war, and why those changes occurred! I can't express how good I found this video and how I think people will love it and would love more!
@@usuallyhapless9481I’m pretty sure that would skip over the whole Pentomic thing.
Great video again! Would be great to see more combined arms toe in the future, maybe comparison between armies
Great video! I’ve actually found German rifle grenades to be extremely effective against troops in buildings. I always take some if I have the points to spare.
Hey hap, i want to highlight another CMRT exclusive, because i find it quite important, because it compounds both the wehrmacht's manpower problems and shakes up company (and battallion level) organisation, tactics and equipment quite harshly, and really dumps a truckload of MP-44 in their laps.
As you will see in the layout, it basicly turns one understrength Battallion into one overstrength Company with a, in my opinion, "reverse-trapez" formation, as you have 4 Platoons (company 1 & 2) which assault, and 2 Platoons (company 3) as a base of fire.
Company 4 and the thrid platoon in company 1&2 are also very notable, because it provides integrated support for the assault, if they attack two seperate positions. What also struck me is the 2 LMGs per Rifle grougp, giving each of the Platoons in Company 3 5x light Machineguns.
This is the layout of "Grenadier Battallion B", which becomes available in september 44 until the end of the war:
Battallion HQ 2x P38 + 2x Kar. 98
HQ Support Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar.98
Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98
2IC Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar. 98 (one of these may be G43)
HQ 3x MP-44
3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44
HQ 3x MP-44
3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44
HQ 2x MP40 + 1x Kar. 98
2x 81mm Mortar (on or off map)
2x 75mm IG (off map)
Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98
2IC Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar. 98 (one of these may be G43)
HQ 3x MP-44
3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44
HQ 3x MP-44
3x Sturmgrenadier 8x MP-44
HQ 2x MP40 + 1x Kar. 98
2x 81mm Mortar (on or off map)
2x 75mm IG (off map)
Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98
2IC Team 1x MP-40 + 3x Kar. 98 (one of these may be G43)
HQ 2x MP-40 + 1x Kar. 98
3x Panzergrenadier 3x Leader (MP-40)
3x Asst. (Kar. 98, one of these will be scoped)
6x Gunner (MG34/42 one of these will be Kar. 98)
15x Riflemen (Kar. 98, one of these will be G43)
HQ 2x MP-40 + 1x Kar. 98
3x Panzergrenadier 3x Leader (MP-40)
3x Asst. (Kar. 98, one of these will be scoped)
6x Gunner (MG34/42 one of these will be Kar. 98)
15x Riflemen (Kar. 98, one of these will be G43)
Kompanie HQ 2x MP-40 + 2x Kar. 98
HQ 1x MP-40 + 2x Kar.98
2x 120mm Mortar (offmap)
2x 120mm Mortar (offmap)
HQ 1x MP-40 + 2x Kar.98
2x 120mm Mortar (offmap)
2x 120mm Mortar (offmap)
HQ 1x MP-40 + 2x Kar.98
2x 75mm IG (on or off map)
Is this not a Panzergrenadier unit?
My logistician heart is absolutely stupified by the madness that the 3rdR must've been behind the scenes ESPECIALLY if you consider the amount of different vehicles they had
Comes close to giving me a nosebleed sometimes. And all this German TOE doesn't include weapons and equipment from Western Europe to make up the numbers...
Germany stood a better chance of winning the war in June ‘45 than their quartermasters stood of not succumbing to nervous breakdowns 😂
@@mumblerinc.6660I'd actually bet it was probably the easiest job. No fuel, no trains, no trucks, no horses, no ammunition, no carts, and most importantly most German generals didn't know what logistics was. Got to snooze all day.
@@lewisyeadon4046and wierdly enoguh they still made to Stalingrad, maybe you perception is wrong
I’d love to see a video going over the finer points of fire and maneuver with infantry, both supported and unsupported.
Interesting analysis, I have been playing CMFI for more than a year now and didn't yet know all the differences between these units.
Great work!
Yeah, neither did I!
Excellent as always
I love to see these formation videos Hapless! I think a video covering the Italian forces would be really interesting, they’re such a difficult nation to use well in game and an explanation on their TOE and tactics would be great! Keep up the videos!
Great video, transitioning from the modern titles towards the ww2 series the many different unit competitions are pretty overwhelming and it's very helpful to get some detailed insight into the organizational setups and tactics, thanks for sharing
Not only excellent shows he did his research
Great breakdown - thanks!
The info on Panzerfausts cleared up a few things for me, and should reduce my shouting at pixeltruppen XD
Great video. This made me understand a ton more about the capabilities of the companies.
Well, inconsistencies are caused not only by german TO&Es being a mess, but also by the fact that CM's "Grenadier companies" 43A through 44A are "normal" rifle companies (Schutzenkompanie) and 45 is based on actual Grenadierkompanie (and it wasn't as simple as "grenadier companies replaced rifle companies - they existed simultaneously, with lots of Schutzenkompanies in Grenadier divisions). In addition, CM's TO&Es are very loosely based on the german ones (KStN).
The most noticeable change - all logistical elements (which were present even on the platoon level) are cut. On the one hand - managing a bunch of wagons and cart won't fit well into the game. On the other - the company lost 20-30 men (depending on a specific variant in question) and at least on LMG. Plus, problems like low ammo for rifle grenades would be somewhat less-pressing.
Also, starting from 43b, which is based on Schutzenkompanie n.A. (KStN 131n. approved in October 1943) there were "weapons reserves" (1-2 spare LMGs per platoon). While it can be argued that due to material shortages not all companies were lucky enough to have them, at least on the eastern front - they had (judging by weapons captured by the Soviets on german positions). Granted, "spare" machine guns were often not MG.34/42s, but older or captured weapons.
Basically, a german company commander in all of the organization variants had a manpower and weapons reserve for about one platoon.
More specifically (in all cases removal of "logisticians" is already taken for granted):
43A is based on an early war company organization that was officially active from February 1941 to October 1943. But light mortar teams are cut (at least on the Eastern front 50-mm mortars started to gradually vanish only in winter 43-44), platoon HQs are cut from 5 men to 3, company HQ - from 8 to 5, company anti-tank team (7 men with either AT-rifles, Grenaderifles or satchel charges and incendiaries) is cut.
43B (KStN 131n, October 1943) is surprisingly accurate. Although, company HQ is cut from 9 men to 5.
43C is the same, but reinforced from the regiment - companies didn't have panzerschreck teams, these are regimental assets.
44A is based on Schutzenkompanie n.A. (KStN 131n, May 1944). Panzerschrecks are from the regiment and company HQ is cut from 10 to 5.
44B is "transitional", so we put it to one side.
45 is based on Grenadierkompanie (KStN 131V, either from September or November 1944 - both variants are very similar, the main difference is what messengers are armed with), but CM's take on it is rather strange. Besides the usual reduction of company HQ (from 16 to 5 in this case) the changes are as follows:
1) There wasn't a panzerschreck section. So all panzerschrecks are from the regiment. And while 3 per company seems reasonable, to get 6 a company had to be very lucky - regimental anti-tank companies had only 18 of them.
2) The only people with G43s in the company were supposed to be 6 "marksmen" in the company HQ. And while they were called "marksmen", according to manuals they were company commander's personal reserve of best soldiers that he was supposed to use for all sorts of crucial tasks - from supporting assaults to counterattacks.
3) "Sturm platoons" were supposed to have 2 squads of just 9 guys with sturmgewehrs and 1 squad of 5 sturmgewehrs, 1 LMG and 3 rifle grenade launchers
4) There were supposed to be 2 "sturm" platoons and 1 "rifle" platoon per company, not the other way around.
And at least according to the soviets (that, unsurprisingly paid great attention to Stg-armed units since the very first capture of Mkb.42 in 1942) generally, this KStN was really close to reality. The main issue was supply of G43s for the "marksmen" - in practice they were often armed with Stgs or sometimes SMGs instead.
I strongly suspect that CM developers try to "Americanize" foreign TO&Es - make them as close to american template as possible without losing flavor entirely. It is also noticeable in Cold War and Black Sea (well, in these titles it is just very easy for me to spot), but with ww2 soviet and german formations it is sometimes even more pronounced.
One thing that's overlooked by a lot of games is that each German squad had two mp40s each, by November 1943 with the new configuration
These videos are always great
Great video.
I do think youre massively undervaluing just how much the TOEs affect combat effectiveness especially given they correspond to tactics changes especially later on.
While a grenadier with an stg44 isnt more survivable to a arty hit compared to one with a k98k a platoon equipped with them can be because its going to be more mobile and quicker on the objective giving arty less time to work.
Thanks man! You're right, I was over exaggerating a little by the end.
Good video, must have been a headache for grenadier battalions to be shifting the unit around so much lol
It sucks how underrated rifle grenades are in movies and games i heard of accounts during the Korean war when US Marines knocked out Chinese T-34's with rifle grenades that made them preferable to the M18 recoilless rifle in that specific role. But in video games its basically just a diet 40mm HE
Note that in the latest versions of the WWII CMs (Red Thunder and Fortress Italy) the grenadier squads do not get random single MP44s anymore, these only appear in the sturm squads. My guess is that this will also be retrofitted to new versions of Normandy and Final Blitzkrieg.
We'll see. My impression is that there should probably be some floating around, but who knows with the late war Wehrmacht?
So far as I know, 2. Panzerdivision, 1. SS-Panzerdivision, and some select Fallschirmjager units were the only formations in Normandy to be issued the StG44.
@@ericbouchard7547 Not according to their status reports, I have the one for the Panzer Divisions and they don't report any for the time period. The only unit that has some in the documents is 275. Infanterie Division.
Really? That’s news to me. Well, that certainly changes my perspective on the matter. I’m almost hurt by the idea that the StG only shows up in the hands of a fortress division, of all places.
@@ericbouchard7547 Hi, dunno if you even remember this random conversation, but I did more research and it turns out you were half right. 2nd Panzer had no MP44s, but 1st SS Panzer indeed reported them in decent numbers. The same is true for 3rd FJG Division, however, 2nd FJG Division had none.
Excellent video! Thank you for putting it together!
Great video, I love your Unit Guide series. Thanks a lot.
I love this style of content, were you start from the bottom and explain everything going up
Great video as usual. I wish Normandy would finally come out on steam.
19:39 They are also now available in CM Final Blitzkrieg. Maybe it's been a thing with the steam release or they've been patched in recently. But they exist now.
I think they added them in with the Downfall module
@@usuallyhapless9481 There's not much to find on their official website (and a grenadier Bn is no where mentioned in the ToW except for some Panzer Grenadier Motorited 44B) and the DLC expands on 1945. You may be right but I think it's just been patched in. Btw did you record this video on the steam version?
7:20 wasn’t that the case for every infratry unit in 1943? It wasn’t until late war that infratry really stated to get good anti tank weapons (so all anti tank work was done by field guns and tank destroyers)
Somewhat. PIAT and Bazooka started production in 1942 and got into action before Panzershreck and Panzerfaust. I'd imagine they only really got into contact digging the Germans out of Tunisia in 43 though- I think the desert on either side of Tripoli probably saw AT Guns and other tanks dominate at range.
There was once a german machinegun team in italy who named themselves the "three musketeers". They were five men thou but had their own funny dialects and prosnalization to their uniforms.
Appaerently some died and I can't find the link to this story anymore.
PRAISE THE LORD. I just started playing my first scenario using German Grenadier companies (CMFI), been busy with US Campaigns and the Fallschirmjäger. This video is coming at a goated time. Once again love the content and can't wait to see more.
Any chance for a look at U.S. rifle companies next? I'd always heard of them referred to as woefully under-armed (see: Bayonetstrength), but they're better off than a British rifle company.
US rifle coys are definitely on the cards. They get a pretty good going over in my Road to Montebourg series, but it's all split up and spread out. TLDR: the Garand is amazing, the BAR is underwhelming and 3x60mm mortars and 2 MMGs at Coy level is great.
Great video, I wanted to ask something about the 1944B and 1945 organizations. The use of sturmzugs with its soldiers armed with Stg-44 was used by volksgrenadier and panzergrenadier divisions. But was it done as well by the regular grenadiers from the infantry divisions? I am curious about if that happened in real life
Volksgrenadiers are probably worth mentioning in context of German Grenadiers, they seem to follow the Grenadier 45 organization but with two Strum and a Heavy Strum platoon rather than 1 and 2
Only in the assault platoon
Hoorah! More content!
Imo, The kar98 bolt action rifles are ineffective. Volksgrenadier are the only axis infantry units I purchase in CM
Love your videos keep it up
This might sound stupid, but is there any true difference between the PanzerGrenadiers and Grenadiers (coming from Final Blitz)
This video has been up for a while but I have been looking it up while checking out the tables of organization and equipment and I am curious about some things.
First of all, I wanted to comment that I noticed that the big organizational changes are done the next month after it's done in the tables, I suposse the units need time to reorganize.
Why are units using the MG 34 exclusivelly till 1944 when the MG 42 was adopter in october 1942?
Also I feel it's a little weird that in the 45B organization there's only one panzerfaust per platoon, it has been in mass production since september so it's understandable that there aren't many but I think there should be at least one per squad as well
Could units be issued with enought Gewehr 41 or 43 to have complete squads armed with semiauto rifles?
And finally something that always bugged me is where the german snipers, not with the small ZF41 scope, but real snipers with 4x or more magnification scopes.
So, in order :) :
The MG42 will appear at pretty much any time in CM, becoming more common as time goes on. You can definitely find them in the mix in July 43, which is the earliest any of the games go to right now. Making the 6 TOE charts was enough of a PITA without getting into the granular details.
There are Panzerfausts everywhere by 45.
In theory the Germans probably could have equipped some squads entirely with semi-auto rifles... this probably happened somewhere (it was a big war) but it's not represented in CM.
Finally, this video is just dealing with bog standard rifle company organisation. Snipers obviously existed, but they were not organically built in at company level.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Thanks for the response, seeing your videos makes me want to try the CM series, although more out of the interest of checking out the unit organizations rather than the gameplay
Anyways, keep up with the great videos
Could you do a video on infantry guns
Great video, thank you!
Necro comment I realize but I cam back to this and do not own FI so maybe there are somewhere else in the TOE, but where are the anti tank rifles esp in the 43' organizations?
The Germans built 44,000 of all models of their own ATRs, as well as capturing thousands of them from various sources (as well as some manufacturing in captured territory) and never actually managed to fully remove them from service. They formed a portion of the organic anti-tank of an infantry unit, and if CM doesn't have them then they missed a trick there I'm afraid.
Only the Soviets get ATRs in CM, so far at least. The 43 type organisation is a bit of an outlier specifically for CMFI, after that there are panzerfausts and panzershrecks everywhere
@@usuallyhapless9481 That is very strange and rather an oversight given who all used em irl
I wish soldiers in CM can use bayonet and hip firing their bolt action ridle when in close combat 😂situation
That would make life a lot easier
In the army we had 2 sayings that where always true: "Es ist kein Mensch, es ist kein Tier, es ist ein Panzergrenadier." and : "Piss im Wald nicht auf nen Stein denn es könnt ein Grennie sein"
In english with lot less prosa:
"Its neither human nor animal, its a Tank grenadier", "Dont pee on a stone in a forest it could be a dug in grenadiers helmet"
You can get Sturm platoons I CMBN
There available in July thru September in the 44B variant. Maybe a 4.04 change?
What game is this? It says men of war assault squad but this doesnt seem like men of war.
It's Combat Mission, specifically (mostly) Combat Mission: Fortress Italy. TH-cam has no idea what it is, so it thinks it's Men of War for some reason.
@@usuallyhapless9481 thanks, where can i buy this game? Wasnt able to find it on steam, same for normandy
@@doubleseven1463 They are both here: www.battlefront.com/index.php?p=home
The aim is to get them all on Steam (the modern ones are there already), but it's not happening as quickly as anyone would like.
If you do decide to pick either of them up from Battlefront though, you'll get a free Steam key when they finally make it.
@@usuallyhapless9481 thanks are there any sales, since the games are kind of pricey, and which ww2 title should i get?
The easiest way to decide to pick the theatre you like best, then play the demo (on the website) and see if you like it. They're all on the same engine, it's just the details that change. Battlefront doesn't really do sales, except when they match the prices on Steam during Steam sales so they do tend to stay pretty pricey (another reason for trying the demos!).
Amazing thank yoU!
No medics organic to platoon, company levels?
Not modelled in CM. There are other elements to the company HQ, including stretcher bearers etc, but CM just deals with the pointy end.
@@usuallyhapless9481 Radios = 1 of platoon leaders' riflemen?
I thought the mid / late War Germans used a 4 man team based around the Machinegun...
Comparing a german infantry division's maneuver infantry company with a US infantry division's maneuver infantry company... if the division's support heavy weapons were evenly doled out to each company.
German infantry company:
one 75mm anti-tank gun
one 75mm infantry gun
two 81mm mortars
one 120mm mortar
one StugIII for every TWO companies
two 105mm artillery guns
US infantry company:
three anti-tank guns
one M10 Wolverine tank destroyer
two Sherman tanks
two 81mm mortars
three 60mm mortars
two 105mm artillery guns
Each US infantry division had a tank battalion attached to it. This was in addition to the tank destroyer battalion, which had largely replaced the division's towed anti-tank battalion. If the US infantry division had a towed anti-tank battalion, each company would have four anti-tank guns, instead of three anti-tank guns and one M10 tank destroyer.
Conclusion. A US "infantry" division was at least equal to a german panzer or panzer grenadier division, especially in view of the fact that all US infantry divisions were fully motorized with trucks.
Also, it certainly seems the germans were much better than the US and British armies at concentrating what firepower they did have at crucial points.
ive been watching your channel for a while a now and i was wondering if you could do a video on combat mission afghanistan
It's worth noting for this entire video, that the concept of a "heavy machine gun" really only amounts to whether or not the MG34/42 has a tripod... this differs from the US or British who could have crew-served M2 .50 cal or Browning M1918 .30 cal HMGs which are purpose made for the role.
*_Arcady_*_ never?_
Great game , but the Engine is ancient and the price is way way to high for what it is .
are you Perun
Wait, no how to use them?
0 out of 10 that a discrimination against the Germans.
Great stuff as always.
First class as always!
Loved this. I really am boring. God knows how I ever got a girlfriend.
An excellent video, thanks for putting it together.