Listen to Jonathan Haidt's "The Happiness Hypothesis" here: audibletrial.com/gmskeptic Also, have any of you had the "atheists are miserable" trope thrown at you? How did that affect you, if at all?
08:35. I often hear "equivocate" misused for "equate" or being equal. You can't eqivocate two facts as being equal. Equivocate does not take an object.
I find it funny that Theists consider God an "objective meaning", when they themselves say that God purposefully let man have free will to do whatever the hell he wants, and gives them no proof of His existence. As such, He never has been an objective meaning, as you have to fully focus of pure faith with lack of factual evidence. There is no objective meaning, life is based on the subjective meaning you give it yourself. Granted, these are the same people who believe that we get morality from God and ignore the concept of empathy, so of course they'd say dumb things like that.
I've always despised the idea that life has no value without a deity. Just the fact that there is no "divine purpose" doesn't make our lives not worthwhile living.
It's the opposite for me. As an atheist, I don't see any meaningfulness to any humans life, only that we are alive therefore we should make use of the opportunity. It's pessimistic, I know, but it works. Edit: Also not saying that theists suddenly have a meaning in life just because of their faith, faith isn't something I would use to judge whether I should be living my life how I want to or not.
One could argue the possibilities of life is even more vast and worthwhile with a near infinite amount of experiences and goals you can find happiness and fulfillment from instead of being limited by what one religion says you must do to live a good life.
The flying spaghetti monster compells you to see reason. He's the one true God. May his noodley appendages guide you to everlasting noodle soup. Ramen.
I was Christian until around 15 years old, I was miserable, always paranoid I was doing something wrong or born bad. Ever since I stopped following that religion I have been happier, giving my life meaning and purpose.
goes to show how it's hugely a different-strokes-for-different-folks sorta thing, and that those criticizing atheism for making life "meaningless" haven't had enough conversations with us.
@@stirpiano I hear you. Our lives and their meanings are based on our perception, regardless of religion. I see a lot of people attacking atheism and basically implying all atheists are nihilists, but that is simply not the case.
That's almost like saying adult life is unlivable because you no longer have your parents telling you to eat your veggies and do your chores. It confuses me how they fail to consider (or maybe disregard) the fulfillment most people find in independence and self-resposibility as a driving force in life.
Or it's like saying that you cannot enjoy your hobby that you freely chose for yourself, you can only enjoy your unpleasant job at Amazon where Jeff Bezos micromanages everything you do, even when you can go to the toilet. It's not true of everyone, but many people enjoy their days off work more than they enjoy their work. Because nobody is telling them what to do on their day off. Of course, they may have family commitments, but still enjoy "me time." As usual, WLC is spouting nonsense.
Well, in fact, my parents - Catholics in their 70s - are still looking for someone to praise them for eating their veggies and doing their chores, figuratively and literally. My Mom often tells me proudly that she was “good” with her diet recently, and she wants me to tell her “good job.”. Both parents are scrupulous about keeping their yard ship-shape and the house inside tidy and clean. They fret endlessly over neighbors who they judge to be falling short. (My ramshackle house drives them bonkers.). They are wholly capable upstanding adults who raised happy, productive children, but emotionally they themselves are like children. I started to notice this around age 11 myself. And then Trump came along and took advantage of a huge population in that state. They demand freedom but, like children, have no sense of the responsibility that is the other side of that freedom.
The funny thing is, when I was deeply Christian, I was consistently 𝘶𝘯𝘩𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘺. I was constantly terrified of doing wrong. Constantly ashamed of myself when I “sinned”. Constantly shunned by my family/Christian society. Since I stopped believing in that stuff-(I am agnostic), I have been much happier. And way more consistently happy. Purpose of us means so much more because we choose to give meaning to ourselves and others. Not because some high being decides it so. That’s so much more satisfying!
This reply is not to say Christianity is true. Its to emphasize how a Christian should live. For example, I struggle with always doing wrong. I will always do wrong. It is inevitable. I feel ashamed. But then I remember what Jesus Christ did for me. He wiped away my past and future sins. I rejoice at this. The more I see sin in me, the more sorrowful I am. Which makes me look at Christ more and also be more happy. It’s an endless paradox
but what kind of meaning is that? what kind of meaning is a self-generated meaning? It seems like lying to yourself. You try to convince yourself that there is meaning but.....really there is no meaning. Suppose you find purpose in life by feeding the hungry. All day long, you pour out your best energies in feeding the hungry. Then, one day it's all over. You find out that your feeding the hungry may have given you temporary meaning and purpose but ultimately, it all comes to nothing. How hollow is that?
@@cornopeanus self-generated meaning isn't something you choose, but rather something that gives you meaning, something that makes your life worth living, even if you're doing something good for others, like a man who can cure any disease with a simple touch, what if he doesn't want to be a doctor? what if he likes making music, or if he loves creating art, then that would be what gives his life meaning your "propose" in life is what gives you a reason to live in the small about of time you have, what makes your life worth living,
@@cornopeanus what's the alternative? god given purpose? you can't prove god even exists, let alone any source of meaning, it really seems like lying to yourself too, and it's for sure self-generated as well
@@d_camara If God doesn't exist, then you are surely right.....my meaning is also self-generated. One thing that you cannot do without God, however, is assess whether someone's meaning is good or evil. Hitler's life had meaning too, but I take it you aren't inspired by that sort of meaning.
They try to deflect that by saying they wouldn't be immoral if they didn't believe in god. But people who don't believe in god have an excuse to be immoral. And then the rest would deviate from here.
Reminds me of a quote, I think by George Bernard Shaw, “Saying that a believer is happier than a non-believer is no more to the point than saying a drunk man is happier than a sober one!”
I can actually confirm this from personal experience. I was raised with no religion at all. Any of my interactions with it have only been as an outsider, but I have never had this crisis of hope/happiness that is talked about by apologists. The idea of needing a christian belief system to find that seems like putting the cart before the horse. As an outsider, religion, at least the socially traditional ones, seems like an attempt to explain things like "hope", "morality", and "creation", rather than a basis for these things. I have personally found better answers in my pursuit of science and philosophy, and accepting that I don't have answers to the questions I can't answer. It upsets me to learn that people might contemplate suicide after leaving their faith. Hang in there everyone! I've heard a saying once, I forget exactly how it goes, but the basic idea is that: "It's not about where we end up, but the journey taken to get there." I find fulfillment and happeniess in my growth as a person, and my personal search for truth. I don't know what happens when we die. That scares me sometimes, but giving up all that I have because I don't know what happens at the end does not seem worth it to me. I hope my contribution to this conversation is helpful.
Most people I've met in Australia are raised without religion (I'm one of them btw), and this so called crisis of happiness is a foreign concept to many of them. I'd say that the need for god to provide a moral foundation is also not something they think about. Morals are easy, "does it hurt someone who isn't me?"
You don't believe God created evthing who created nothing. You will be cremated when you die. You will be burnt in a fierce heated fire. How do you know you don't feel anything. When we are buried we go back to soil. If you are burnt it is ashes it is not soil two different entities. I ask during my life OH you, who I am going to who I am going to return to have mercy on me. When you parents had sex and your mother felt life who blew that first life (mercy), in your mother's womb? When your mother gave birth to you who gave her the strength and the love to push you out of her body. Awaiting your response Tks
before I start you need to know one thing you can't disprove a non exitastant. Like if I say there is an invisible pony you can't disprove it. But you can still act as it isn't there because it affects nothing.like that god is a claim and he does nothing . First is a hypothesis you guys think god created the universe .we hypotheised it came from nothing. The problem with god creationism is that you are just moving it to god so then we need to know what god is. So just another question. And we don't have any significant evidence for a deistic god about much less the biblical god there are thousands of gods .what makes your special?? The thing we also can't disprove any other religion. We can't disprove the non existent.!!! Second statement you asked how we know you can't feel it. It is because the system that process pain is dead it is verified by scientic methods . so your just spouting unscientific claims without any evidence. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences. And those claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Third claim about soil and ashes . I think you don't know what soil is . soil is the general term material that covers the surface so it includes both inorganic and organic.so again you don't know what you are talking about. Life in mothers womb . do read biology, the zygote formed dues to gametes from both parents became a embryo and then a human child by differentiation and cell division . it is not magic. We have enough proof that cells have the ability to differentiate and multiply . the only thing we are looking is how the first life originated . I think we will able to do it in the coming decades or centuries. We have already cloned animals. Though we did stop for ethical reasons. But it just means we can create life from life . now we just need to create life from its constituent particles.. The last statement would be the chemical oxytocin. It contracts the uterine walls and helps push the child out. I I hope you are able to read books and increase your knowledge . That is why I believe in atheism .because as far we have seen we are able to come with answers that doesn't need god so there is no reason to believe in god . and
@@nafisasalie6230 the reason why you should become an atheist is that . one there are many diseases that need cure and millions are dying if you use the time you have to pray and study bible, read get a degree become a scientist and make cures you save millions of life. If your god is merciful as you say he is then he will understand. Another why you should abandon Christianity is because religions like Islam ,etc use you as a basis for their religion . and it is oppressing millions of people. Like I said we can't disprove a non existent. So I say rather than look for heaven we don't know, why not try to create a heaven here for your fellow human beings.
That's as absurd as me saying "Christians cannot be both happy and consistent. If they are consistent, then they must necessarily always be terrified that God will cast them into hell for a sin which they did not know they have committed, and would have any recourse for since anything God does is just. Since living in a state of terror and happiness are mutually exclusive, Christians must set aside their faith for periods of time in order to feel happy, abandoning consistency."
Exactly. It’s easy to make up unfalsifiable claims like this on either side, and it gets us no closer to understanding the truth about the lived experience of atheists or Christians.
Honestly, I do feel pretty safe not believing in an all powerful being looking at me judgingly, when I'm doing private stuff. Sometimes I think "How can christians live like this?".But as we can see, they're doing just fine, so who am I to make claims about a mindset I don't understand.
If this is the game - redefining terms to exclude your debate opponent - why does anyone engage with these individuals? I don't understand why a conversation is required when the endgame is always the same: "I already told you God is required to have these qualities, you don't believe in God, ergo you cannot have these qualities." People that legislate our societies think in these terms. Why are they granted the benefit of the doubt? Why even casually debate them? I don't get it.
Even if the life of an atheist WERE inherently miserable and pointless, that wouldn't make God any more likely to exist. Maybe I'd feel more purpose and wellbeing in my life if I believed in Zeus & co, does that mean they are real?
As a neopagan, I'd say that they're real from a certain point of view. As an HONEST neopagan, I have to admit that I can't prove one way or the other, and I'm personally happy with that fact. Why does everything have to have a deeper meaning? Why can't we just enjoy things because they're enjoyable?
@@junacebedo888 have you consdered following the teaching of the flying spaghetti monster? it requires only your love of people and food, not a belief in a god
That's not his argument at all, he never said it was or presented it as an argument for God, the people who watch this channel have probably already seen WLC and his debates so should know he often presents 5 arguments for God's existence none of which are the fallacious one you use above, you can suspect underneath it all that's his real motive for believing but you can't sit there and say he's presenting that as his reasoning for belief that is flat out dishonest.
@@Mr.Goodkat His argument is this: - God is required for meaning in life - A lack of meaning in life is too depressing to be true - Therefore meaning in life exists - Therefore God exists
@@KL-lt8rc Why wait around for someone to make a poor argument, when you can just make it for them? this'll save WLC the trouble of having to actually say it himself.
@@Mr.Goodkat Literal quote from Craig: "About the only solution the atheist can offer is that we face the absurdity of life and live bravely" "The fundamental problem with this solution, however, is that it is impossible to live consistently and happily within such a world view" His criticism of the atheistic worldview is that it can't produce happiness. He is arguing that atheists (whose only defining feature is a lack of belief in the existence of god) are wrong because (according to himself) their worldview is unhappy. He's defending God's existence on the premise that doing so makes people happy, by virtue of providing meaning. You can keep saying I'm mischaracterizating the argument, but I'm not.
@@KL-lt8rc Sounds like from the quote above you provided he is saying they have a fundamental problem because it's impossible for them to be happy, which would certainly be a problem for the individual if it was true but never once did he say that shows atheism is false, he never even implied that, I thought when I seen you had responded it be with him saying more what you are but that quote you provided doesn't support what you're saying.
As an atheist ( born, grown and live as an atheist, who never needed any kindness or rage from any higher being ) I was shocked. The theistic people really think that this world we live in... is terrible, absurd, meaningless and so on? Someone's basement where the junk and trash rot together in the stinking darkness? Really? Why they hate this world? ...glad I'm atheist... Maybe it's new for them, but I must say: This world is amazing, beautiful, lovely, funny and first of all LIVABLE! ( Hope we will not destroy the Earth. ) This world gave life to every ancestors you have, to your father and mother, and they gave you your own personal life. This world is your cradle, playground, wedding bed, workplace, home, toilet and grave. This world is not only livable, but lovable too. Men of faith - I ask just a little respect! Please! I myself love this world, and I feel sad if someone hate it.
And those people that believe in God make the world that much more miserable for everyone else to truly live because in their mind they have to be perfect and think everyone is constantly threatened with hell how can you relax and enjoy life if your always thinking that way? I would never want to believe what they believe in because I would never live my life but that's their problem they can make the choice to change and open their mind but they remain ignorant fools chained to religion and then when it all said and don they have wasted their whole life
Yeah, look at China, China has historically kept religions at bay, bar confucianism and Buddhism, both of which are more philosophies and than religion. China was the most powerful country in the world (except maybe for some short periods of civil unrest) until maybe the 16th century. At the very least, the Chinese civilization is the only one that lasted since the times of the first civilizations, all the way to modern times. (Indian civilization too, it was conquered everyone, but the conquerors ended up being assimilated everytime. Egyptian civilization is unrecognizable today. Same for Mesopotamia) The arrogance of the judeo-christian religions, along with their ignorance, is something remarkable. Their claim that they were created by their God is just so ridiculous to hear as a Chinese because we literally have writings better preserved than these ignorants from 4000 years ago, mythology inspired from people living before 4000 years ago, and some made up mythology and NONE support the claims of the creation in the Bible. Lmao the Chinese mythology says the world was nothing, and the was a giant who felt all squeezed up by the lack of space that he pushed the space around such that space expanded. Then he pass away because he was too tired and his body became the landscape. Sounds closer to the big bang than creation in the Bible lol.
Late answer, but I think you misunderstand something. When theists (especially Christians in this example) see something terrible/absurd in this world, they excuse this by having god ultimately make sense of that. Atheists also see that life sometimes can be terrible/absurd and they have their own personal mechanisms of coping with that fact. That does not mean that neither of those groups can't acknowledge beauty in this world.
@@drschwandi3687 I think it's different for each one. My way was doing things that made me feel emotions, even sadness and fear are proofs that I'm alive. I have no porpoise or meaning, I'm just a individual from a species, that by itself allows me to do whatever I want. I follow my feelings and reason, do what I consider beneficial to me and others and that's it. When I die I'll be no more so if I want to be something the time is now. Hope this isn't to confuse
The myth that Christianity makes you happy is something I had to come face-to-face with in my own life when my proper "Christian" beliefs led me to what was nearly my death. I had been made to feel that I was forced to live this way or else I was damned, I lived in constant fear of what would happen to me if I left my abusive husband, and eventually it led to nearly being killed by him. At that point, I began seeing my life much more clearly and I realized that the people who had pushed me to this point in my life weren't happy either. I received encouragement to stay with my husband anyway by women who were also abused by their husbands, and I was threatened by men in the church of what would happen should I leave (likely also abusers). I never felt more hopeless than being a Christian, and I never felt more misled because I had been promised that by living this way I would be happy, and I realized that I had never even known happiness. You're right when you say that Christians who think that life has no meaning without God already have no meaning, and how could they not? They're made to believe that EVERYTHING in life is either pointless or sinful, nothing is to be enjoyed *but* God, so people like me grow up with no sense of purpose or happiness because we aren't allowed to have any. It wasn't until I did leave my abusive ex-husband and the church that I ever felt hopeful, because for once in my life, I was allowed to be. I was allowed to decide what mattered and what didn't, what to live for and what not to, what to enjoy and what I didn't care for. Freedom gave me hope, not religious fundamentalism.
I would like to leave you some loving thoughts. What you did was amazingly brave and must have been incredibly difficult. Turning yourself from a victim into a survivor taking their life into their own hands is... beyond words. I'm so glad it turned out to be worthwile!
@@fairytala I want to add my admiration as well. Whatever the ultimate truth, your story is inspiring because it shows human potential and strength and clarity of vision : you nailed the inherent repression of this sort of religiosity "EVERYTHING in life is either pointless or sinful". Exactly right. I hope you are doing really well in your new freedom.
Thank you so much for sharing. I’m very sorry you went through that but I’m very very glad you got out of it. You have a strength in you that not many have.
Your story is inspiring for me.. Thank you for sharing.. Your struggle is not easy but you opened your mind and had vision and acted upon it.. I am happy for you breaking free... I must reflect and try to break free in my hopeless situation, RN.. Even in medical field.. Abused wives have a illness called "Battered wife syndrome" and one of its treatment is to leave ASAP and find victims to find proper channels for them to get out of their bad situation and to think you did it with yourself is amazing..
The biggest conflict for me when I hear the argument of “Atheists can’t feel meaning.” Is that when I was a Christian, life felt unbelievably meaningless and pointless. Why am I waiting to die? Nothing here matters, it’s the eternity in heaven that I’m looking towards. When I shifted to being an Atheist, I felt that weight off my back and my life is meaningful because it just ends when I die. If I believed in an afterlife, that meaning disappears.
Just want to say, we dont really know if it all ends when we die. The true nature of consciousness isnt yet understood, so what happens after death is a mystery.
This is something I really find entertaining about Abrahamic religion. It's invented a comforting afterlife, but then it needed a way to make people not just immediately try to die so they can get there, so it made suicide a sin.
@@bolderblood5240 For me it was more so like. It isn’t what matters in the world. What matters is the afterlife and that union with god. Its an inclination towards death that kinda made my life difficult to enjoy.
Drew, the weeks after becoming an Atheist, I was afraid I'd lost both meaning and morality. I remember in the weeks that followed... one morning, I woke up and the sun was shining through the windows. And that was enough. I love sunlight. Later, I was driving down the road. A Texas rain started pouring. There was a homeless woman begging on the side of the road. I ran out and gave her my umbrella, not for Jesus, because I, as a fellow human, cared. I cried afterwards. I realized that my meaning and my morality were superior to anything given to me an outside source. Thank you for your videos. Sometimes, I need to remember that journey and I get to share it with you without the reactiveness I get elsewhere. I think we share this, I was a minister. A lot of my friends are in ministry. I don't hate them or look down on them. The ones who are still friends with me might disagree, but we still talk, we still seek truth together. That's what it means to be humans. A lot of my fellow Atheists don't understand that, like a lot of my Christian friends didn't. You said something in a previous video I often say to my Christian friends. You said something like, "And if it turns out I'm wrong and God is real, I feel like my current beliefs are justified with my current level of knowledge." I don't know if there's a God, but if there is, that God has to be smart enough to know that I'm a tiny human trying to figure out the universe. I don't know shit. Punishing me for that would be weird. Anyway, love your channel. Thank you!
@jon noble and obviously it occurred to you that generosity and caring of one's fellows WITHOUT SOMEONE CONSTANTLY WATCHING or keeping score of brownie points, is the actual genuine gesture. welcome to the rest of the world. you have some fewer things to fear now. but I do still hold some issues with man's inhumanity to man. and I still make mistakes. I still have regrets. Nobody is going to absolve me of those. If i do "wrong" I try to make amends to them I have wronged. There are bound to be wrongs I do without even knowing, but those have to sort themselves out.
but what if instead you had gone up to the homeless man and kicked him in the ribs? on a secular worldview, how does that differ from giving him an umbrella? and btw...thanks for doing that; it was noble and kind.
@@cornopeanus I don't think insane humans kick people in the ribs for no reason any more than bees sting for no reason. Even animals adopt other animals, and I don't hear anyone arguing that dolphins save humans from sharks because Dolphin-Jesus said to. I think empathy is just a part of being a social animal. Social animals couldn't be social animals without empathy. What do you think?
@@transhumean My point is that on secular principles, empathy is a meaningless category. If we are simply biochemical machines with no soul and no real freedom to make choices, then we have no way of assessing whether a given choice (say to kick someone in the ribs) is good or bad. Would you ever think of your car or your smartfone as something with empathy?
@@cornopeanus Are you asserting that religious folks share a universally consistent perspective concerning morality? You seem to be making some assumptions about the secular perspective that I am not sure I share. And I'm wondering whether you got these assumptions by listening to secularists or whether you got them from a Christian apologist. We do this thing, all of us, where we let Rachel Maddow tell us what conservatives think. We shouldn't. Or we let Tucker tell us what liberals think. We shouldn't. I am a former minister. What the apologists say about people like me is incorrect. Please, keep the conversation going
Can I observe that the absence of life stress or mental stress isn't happiness. And the absence of mental stress in the Scandinvaian countries is down to their compressed income structures. In the US income structures are widely divergent and create horrible mental stresses for those at the bottom of the pile. This exists in many other countries but the US is unique. In that country you are taught that effort means reward. In short, if you are poor it's your own fault. The irony is those at the bottom are more religious.
@@Kevin-cy2dr well there are always exceptions. But usually it is like this. If one is happy and educated then they don't need a God in there life. But is your life filled with pain and in poverty then a God can help you. You know like psychologically. The point is that while a God can help you mentally, it doesn't make societies better, and people en general more happy.
@Черногорский истребитель Yes we do need science to tell us who is happy otherwise we are just making stuff up. Religion has been the cause of much war and trauma which goes against your hypothesis.
Let me get William Lane Craig's argument straight: Giving yourself meaning and purpose = delusional Being used for the purpose of making God happy = good Got it.
Best to ignore these kind of people,cause themselves are ignorant enough. I don't say it cause he's religious but if he don't give a crap of how athiest actually feels,think and what they actually is(not some evil,anti moral shit) then it's not worth your time seeing more of what he have to say.
no that's not it Craig's argument is more like Giving yourself meaning and purpose = delusional Giving yourself meaning and purpose for believing in a god without proving at any point he exist = not delusional
i can only speak for myself, pls dont lump me in with the others. in the commandments there is 1 commandment that says "treat another with love/as yourself" (depending on the version but the message remains the same). if these christians you speak of call someone delusional or judge someone by their belief then they are hypocrites purely because of that commandment. being a christian means that you dont judge, that you dont try to think ill of ppl, understanding that every1 has a bad moment or a bad part in their life and acting accordingly in their best interest. its a very personal choice, and accepting God is the best thing that happened for me, but im not going to brown-nose other ppl or browbeat them, absolutely not, every1 has a right to make their own choice, to choose what they believe in and i respect the hell out of that. myself i am a christian, but i dont consider myself religious. i consider myself faithful, because religion is organized, but faith is completely personal. turned into a small rant this, have a good day everyone.
Yaw, while it is true that some atheist experience emotional distress when they deconverting, much of the time this is because they were told that they would not have meaning as an atheist, not that they actually can’t have meaning
The absurd argument is that you can't have a meaningful life without superstition imposing that meaning?... I mean really, why does anyone take this seriously? I'm doing fine without an irrational fear of a vengeful/loving mythical being
A lot of arguments say more about the speaker than the subject. Somebody who makes this argument can find no meaning in their work, their family, their hobbies, or anything except their faith. And that kind of empty life is sad to think about. Scarier to me is the often closely following one, "Without God there is no morality." Because THAT means they see no value in being a good person or having positive relationships, and they see no threat in worldly punishment. The only thing holding them back is the flimsy threat of Hell, and if they were to fall or suffer a crisis of faith then what is to protect those around them?
As an atheist “suffering” with depression I have been told many times that it is due to my lack of belief in god. However as an educated woman I have the sense to know better and so I don’t let that phase me. I have always found it interesting how my religious friends and family would say this to me but are pleasant and caring to our religious friends who are suffering the same if not worse than me. I’m doing fine and my atheist (immediate) family are caring and warm to me, so I have support. Considering that they preach love and tolerance etc I am always amazed at their hypocrisy.
lack of dopamine is generally the issue. Or balancing it out in the brain. Testosterone levels and estrogen low = depression. Diet change to counter this issue. Look up exotic foods that allow this slow change over time. Pills tend to be to much to soon.
Yep. It's the same issue with morality. "How can you, a social and empathetic being, prefer not causing harm and having no harm caused to you if no one is telling you objectively what to do?"
Yes, I'd say even theists get most of their meaning and happiness from ordinary everyday things (probably including Craig) not from thinking whats going to happen to them when they die.
@@cy-one This is hte big one I see a lot. Like, I am perfectly happy not running out to murder people on hte daily, not becuase I'm scared some God is gonna punish me; hell I'm not even scared the police or other people are going to punish me. I just dont like hurting people. If I really feel a need to hurt someone, I play games or write a story, because I dont like hurting people, even when I feel like they deserve it. Some folks? Sure I'd kill a few specific people due to the harm they cuase others. But that's based on my own sense of morality, and when I believe that it's necessary to put aside my distaste for harm in order ot prevent greater harm. But that's another discussion. Seriously, how fucking sad of a person do you have to be to think "wow, if God didn't tell me not to, how could I ever stop myself from hurting people?"
@@Luinta Well, pretty sad tbh. Consider they genuinely believe they're "broken" and deserve eternal torture if they "can't make it up" to God. Which is also impossible, because "no one is without sin." So the only thing they can do in their perception is just _believe extra-hard_ so God be merciful and ignore all their sins, letting them into heaven anyway. Which of course would be impossible in the first place, because mercy is by definition contradictory to justice... So to let them into heaven despite their sins, God would need to act unjust... But God is defined as just. But also merciful... which contradicts itself... And round and round it goes until the mind is completely mush.
When they say without god there is no purpose, I can’t help but to think about all the people who’s purpose was to be enslaved, raped, terminally ill, etc. they love to talk about god given purpose until it comes to people who according to them were destined to live severely painful lives and die horrible deaths. They are so self centered and closed minded. It’s so sad.
Thats basically everyone imo. Take financially successful people for instance; they will claim their efforts made them rich but ignore all the millions that try the same thing and suffer. Humans seem to really like being able to have their god, their money, their way, and ignore or worse shame others.
I mean, that argument only works if you assume purpose means that your actions or things that happen to you are predetermined. When people talk about purpose in the context of religion, they usually mean something they can reference to give their life structure and meaning.
That’s one of the main reasons why I left faith. What God can approve this world, if he is on our side? And if he isn’t, then what’s the purpose in worshiping him?
@@r.m.5548 idk I have a life that is definitely not the worst (I think I qualify as lower middle class) and the only time I've ever had issue is when someone implied that I'm somehow bad for having a non-horrible life. I have never considered that any group of people have brought their lives upon themselves (though I will admit that I was never so deluded to think that I'm in any form a good person when I wouldn't trade my place with someone less fortunate. I help, but at no expense to my meager comforts)
@@madeleinedarnoco5190 He doesn’t approve of this world. I really wish atheists would learn about Christianity and the Bible prior to debating (I have the same wish for Christians btw). God also does not promise happiness and fulfillment in this world. Fulfillment is reached as it is by everyone, doing those things which have meaning for you.
This whole reasoning just sounds like a miserable toxic relationship. "You NEED me to be happy! If you don't stay with me you'll be unhappy forever! There is no happy life outside of our relationship!"
Bru use your brain. Human understanding is scarcely limited in comparison to Gods understanding. Meaning: if you do what you yourself think is good and disregard the word of God then you are like a 5 year old crying ”unfair unfair” when their dad wont allow them chocolate for dinner..
We do need objective scripture and Higher ways because if we let ourselfes be run by our short term desires then we find ourselfes on paths towards destruction.
@@BlurpGooDiJabba If God wants to be understood differently, then he should act differently. The way he presents himself to us (or let's himself be presented to us) doesn't really make him seem like a good being.
@@Nexils well thats your personal experience. There is a time for those who have been called according to his will. Its all predetermined. Not everyone is meant to go to heaven or believe, we all serve different purposes in glorifying him. Some glorify him throught receiving his wrath and other by receiving mercy in abundance. My personal experience is that i was an antitheist at some point but i slowly after reading many books changed my mind towards the idea gradually. Education and a open mind is the key to finding God. If you watch absolute abominations such as this channel on youtube, you are just reinforcing your own preconceived notions. Its not going to lead you to a correct understanding of the truth. This is cirkle jerking.
As a person who was raised without the concept of God even being mentioned in my home, I never thought about any of this until I was much older. When I got older and spoke with people who believed in God, it blew my mind! But I also blew their minds. They wondered how i came to live by 9 of the 10 commandments (I dont follow number one, to believe in the one God) and asked if I felt frightened since I had no God to look after me. I developed a moral code by myself based on what made sense; dont steal, cheat, lie, covet others' things and, above all, try not to harm others. I have never felt the presence of a higher power, and have not felt the lack. I do not feel hopeless. I feel my life has meaning; I work to help others and it brings me great satisfaction. I am not afraid to die bc it never occurred to me that eternal punishment was even an option. It never occurred to me that I had a soul so I have no questions about what happens to me (or my soul) after death; I figured I'd disintegrate like other dead animals. Being an atheist wasnt a choice for me. I just am. I've studied Islam, Judeism, Christianity and Catholicism with imams, rabbis, priests, pastors and JWs, so I know the scriptures better than many. They are interesting and help explain a lot of history and human behavior, but they dont inspire a need for God in me.
In the end the reason the biblical moral code was written that way, was because it's what made sense to the humans who wrote it, because it's the same conclusion most humans come to when they see the world through the lens of social instincts. I suppose it must be shocking if you believe these ideas only exist because of a book... and find, nope... happens naturally.
Good point. Also, neither Christianity nor any other of the three book religions has such an awesome track record at making people feel happy. Superior to others, maybe, but then a truly happy person won't need that feeling of superiority IMO). I don't even think that says much about these religions. I'm afraid believers form their religion much more than the other way around; homophobic, misogynistic believers will turn any religion into a homophobic, misogynistic mess.
Also, the survey didn't take faith or non-faith into account. It was basically "are you happy with your life?" which has nothing to do with an atheist's non-belief.
Also, a lack of happiness in an atheist's life wouldn't necessarily indicate that it is their lack of religious beliefs that torments them - rather, the way more likely scenario is that they were unhappy due to the way their family or society in general treats their atheism. Atheists being unhappy would say more about society in general than it would about what one should or should not believe.
WLC demonstrating how being a Christian is like being in an abusive relationship. "You leave me and you'll be sorry, miserable, and unhappy." "Without me your life is meaningless."
Just not true , many atheists (obviously) think that's the case , but it's not at all, in fact, just the opposite, it's the last thing on their mind. (For most Christians) I'm one and I don't think like that in the least, THE LEAST !
@@anthonyvega2785 could you be more specific? What's "not true"? What do "many atheists (obviously) think [is] the case"? (I'll skip asking about the opposite, since hopefully you answering the earlier questions will clear that up...) And what don't you think like?
@@anthonyvega2785 Oh but it is. Christianity shows all the signs of an abusive relationship. Typical signs you're in an abusive relationship - 1. Your partner tries to control your behaviour. 2. Your partner threatens to harm you or people you love (believe in me or burn in hell). 3. You're scared of your partner (fear of god). Things you might feel in an abusive relationship. 1. 'My partner isn’t violent all the time - they love me'.(God loves me and won't send me to hell as long as I keep believing and worshipping him) 2. 'Maybe it's my fault' (I'm an unworthy sinner). 3. 'I'm scared of what will happen if I leave them'. (hell - again).
Other than falling out with almost everyone I knew, I had almost the opposite experience when I left Christianity. I had never felt more happy and free and powerful. I was finally able to choose my own path and define my own life and happiness. The benefit to my situation though was that I was living abroad at the time. I know if I was still at home though I would never have the courage or strength to leave my faith for fear of retribution.
I haven't deconstructed yet and I'm going through a wide range of emotions over leaving Christianity (former Mormon). I'm actually identifying what I need to change in order to be truly happy (I came out as queer at the same time I told people I left Christianity about a month ago). What I can tell you is that since telling the people at church not to contact me anymore and coming out, I had an unexpected result. Sundays became a day of rest for me rather than a day of heaviness and guilt. Every Sunday since that day, I've had glorious rest and relaxation and happiness for the first time in my 46 years. The inner argument is over; I made my choice, and I'm pleased and relieved with what's left. I never thought I'd find myself here, but I don't want to take back the change. Leaving Christianity is the biggest step I've taken that has led me in a happier direction. Theists don't get to define happiness as something only they can experience. That's absurd and myopic!
Also, thank you for the resource. I didn't have anybody I could trust. Everybody seems to want to ciphon people like me into other religions or make money off of us.
Aww, that's so great! We're glad to see you made it outta there in one piece and stayed strong. Life controlling and monitoring cults are no fun at all 👌
I had a very similar experience to you except I grew up Southern Baptist and came out as lesbian to my father who is a pastor. For me deconverting meant I no longer had to cry every night about the fact that I was gay and going to hell, instead 2 years later I find so much happiness in the fact that I can be who I am and love the gender I want. I always tell my parents this, just because you need a God to feel like your life has meaning does not mean everyone else does. I find overwhelming joy in striving for my goals and becoming a better person who is empathetic and available to the people I love. I find meaning in helping others and making sure their life is full of happiness. I find meaning in the simple and the experiences I have. There is only one life, and my happiness comes from making the most out of my time on this beautiful earth I get to call home for a very short amount of time.
Authenticity is amazing! Congratulations on beginning your journey into your true self. I hope that you are well and happy. I was 48 when I realized I was no longer afraid of God and then I realized that was because I didn't believe in a god any more. Aren't Sundays great! Theists can and will say all sorts of things but we can leave them to stew in their miserable juices. How great is that
@@starblaiz1986 you made the claim. Can you account for the lives of every Christian in the world that they don’t live consistently? Actually if we mean consistently good, the only person who lived a consistently good life was Jesus. Everyone else has fallen short.
This video made me reflect with deep gratitude, on growing up in the northeast. While raised Catholic I left the church at 18. I had Jewish, Vaishnavi(spelling?), Protestant, and Muslim friends, neighbors and classmates. My casually open lack of religious affiliation, hadn't ever had any effect, good or bad on my job, friends, place on sports teams etc. I witnessed a very different dynamic while attending the University of Wisconsin. I remember the first time I witnessed an argument between a student and Professor regarding the relevance of the Bible in a science class. Later I interned with a mental health center. After an incident in which another intern had told a caller struggling with questions about their sexual identity that having sex with other men was "evil, and prayer could cure Gay-lust" (I'll never forget that note from the call, they literally hyphenated it!!!) I was gobsmacked and there were many more. It's still alarming to hear what people go through in other areas, at the hands of those who also identify as Christian. It would take profound courage, to be known as openly atheist in a mono-faith community.
It’s insulting that Craig insinuates that what I feel when gazing at my sleeping children isn’t real. I don’t need a god to feel a sense of parental purpose and find meaning in the shining smiles of my boys. What a typically arrogant Christian thing to say…I’m so tired of these people trying to ruin everything and replace it with their own disaster
@@emilygordbort7300 why is it weird? When I check on them at night before I go to bed, I can reflect on how shitty my childhood was and I see how much better theirs is in the peacefulness of their rest? Why is that weird?
@@WhaleManMan you can feel insulted even when not directly addressed. If a Frenchman called Americans cowardly, most Americans would take offense to that. If a feminist called all men misogynistic pigs, most men might take issue with that. The degree of insult is a personal decision, but a decision nonetheless and I don’t care to be insulted by a guy who believes in space wizards, demons and miracle cures.
Or Xenogears or 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. Along with NieR Automata, these three games have my favorite stories and they all deal with existentialism. Xenogears takes it a step further and just straight up mocks western religion. Brilliant games all around
Bank: your account balance is $0.00 Apologists: If I had no money, I couldn't afford food, rent, or healthcare. Such a life would be terrible and unlivable. Therefore, I believe I do have money
That's probably the most accurate description of the "Blab It and Grab It" prosperity gospel I've ever read. And, because they do 'believe they have money', despite the actual evidence telling them that they're, in fact, broke, they write bouncing checks to their favorite charlatans, er, I mean, televangelists, as an act of non-evidenced "faith". After all, they'll be the first to say: "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:17,20,26) They're also the same ones who try to claim that Hebrews 11:1 states that "faith" is based upon evidence, when the text actually says that "faith" is nothing more than a blind "assurance".
Hey Drew, I just want to take a moment to thank you. Your videos have been part of my very recent progress towards atheism. And after living as a closeted atheist for about 6 months, I finally came out to my closest Christian friends today and it did not go well. I was basically consigned to Hellfire which I get to a degree because, Hell is kind of the Christian way of dealing with the issue of non-belief. But I had hoped my long-term connections with close friends would yield some more subtle responses. Feeling very alone right now. Thank you for all that you do.
I know your comment is six months old, but I hope you've found some peace since then. Your friends have been brainwashed and so they are simply regurgitating the standard responses with which they have been programmed. You didn't ask, but here's a perspective for you to consider: realize that they have your best interests at heart. They truly believe what they are saying and if they didn't care about you, they wouldn't bother trying to convince you. So their actions, while misguided, are an act of love-feel the honor in that even as you smile and move on. You don't need to debate them or even offer any explanations. Just thank them for their concern and ask them if they're still willing to be your friend despite your different views. If they are, then politely explain that you want your friendship to be based on love, acceptance, and commonalities instead of judgment and differences. If they're not willing to have a relationship on those terms, then hug them and tell them that you'll always value your time together and that you will always wish the best for them. Then hit up some people like me who will accept you for who you are, even if we disagree about important things.
"We have nothing to lose and eternity to gain" - what a bullsh*t. I lost all my mental stability being a religious person, worring about every single thought of mine and wondering how can I explain it during confession so I won't be burning in hell... I developed a religious themed ocd and felt like im trapped in some awful little cage, like I have to repress every "bad" thought and even impulse in order to be cristal clear and safe.
Don't forget that there are numerous religions out there. Putting all your eggs in one basket only to be met with a different god, well, that would kinda suck.
Religion is about control. And they use fear and guilt to control you. Remember that these religions were created by ancient, controlling, bullying Barbarians. ‘You’re born a sinner because of original sin, even though it wasn’t you that committed it.’ ‘You will burn in hell if you don’t obey this impossible set of rules.’ Yup. Guilt and fear.
The study mentioned in the video also shows that atheists have a higher level of psychological flourishing, so believers have to sacrifice flourishing psychologically for their faith so even this study shows there is something to lose
I was a devout Christian until 22 and recently came out to my family. It’s been hard, but your videos help to keep me grounded. I wrote you in my gratitude journal tonight!
I've noticed that Christians often say that it gives life meaning but they never say what that meaning is, aside from serving God, which doesn't seen all that meaningful to me.
Right. If my purpose (from an Evangelical perspective) is to try to protect people from the God I believe in (if they're not converted they'll go to hell) then that is a very sad purpose indeed.
Their ultimate meaning is simply believing in Jesus as a prerequisite for the next life, which is the one that really matters. Ironically, this renders their current life essentially meaningless. Craig says that a world filled with absurdity and suffering is pointless without God, but if you have God, that only means you can hand-wave away the absurdity and suffering in the world, because you only have to care about getting to the next world. Where's the consistency in that??
They also seem to all have this condition where they can't come up with goals and reasons to live for themselves, which is somewhat odd. If somebody else can do it, then logically you should be able to do it yourself.
11:50 When I became an athiest it was with a sense of wonder, suddenly realizing nothing was there. My faith was all connected together, a cohesive, coherent whole. If you had asked me 5 minutes before my epiphany, I would have vehemently supported my faith. It was such a drastic change I sat and meditated in fascination about its loss. It took me months to tell my family, and that was hard. They did an intervention, but I was stoic. My pastor met with me once, and never tried again. My church family turned their back on me, never reaching out to me again. So I lost that totally. Given it went away so quickly and completely, it was pretty shallow. I value life so much. My happiness is actually higher than when I believed. My purpose is to live a good life, while I can.
Right on, my friend. The compassion and empathy I have felt from my gay brothers and sisters is something I have realized since grade school. As my friend Mark Renton told me, "Sex is about aesthetics and has f*** all to do with morality." As far as I am concerned being different in such a way can help you be a better person overall.
Same. I'm still living in a Christian home but I'm a lesbian and ever since I secretly left religion, I have been happier with myself and with my life in general.
There is clearly a difference of difficulty between the U.S. and Europe in being an atheist. If you said "atheists are miserable" in Europe, people would be wondering what the hell you are talking about.
@@Lessk69 i'm Norwegian. It's mostly old people who are still extremely religious. Most young people are confused on what to believe and not to believe
@@Nai_101 I don't think most of us are confused. Even the old religious people I know aren't the judgemental type one sees in the US or middle east, and tend to be the "god is whoever you want him to be" type. Our society has progressed beyond the need to use religion as an emotional crutch.
@@jayrobinson24 Right, that's why I was listing to this channel run by a smug atheist and read the comments made by other smug atheists. I wanted those virtual high-fives. But from who? You guys are the only people who know I am here. Oh by the way, sorry I don't agree at all with the fellow who said atheists are miserable. So I guess you weren't even talking about people like me. I don't know where he's getting his theology from. I mean Paul points out there's pleasure in sin for a season. He also said there are some who God will give over to a strong delusion and they will believe a lie and be damned. So I agree with you guys. Atheists can totally be happy, God said so too.
@@HarryNicNicholas Edit: Craig: it's impossible to enjoy it without believing in an objective warmth for tea given to us by the Objective Tea Warmer. Ah sure you might think you are enjoying it but you're just deceived.
The concept of everyone living in there own reality kinda breaks the argument. If you didn't know how i made things and i could predict every action you will make then i would be seen as a god from your view point.
I remember once in my teens when me and a friend saw a plane leaving a huge vapor trail in the sky. The sun was hitting it just right and leaving it coloured like a rainbow, like a rainbow coloured slash in the sky. It was so beautiful! As we were looking at it, I said: "it is just amazing that light travelled millions of kilometers, entered the atmosphere at the right angle and hit all those tiny particles, just to scatter itself into this colourful spectrum, photons of which arrived at our eyes and made us see all that" To which she said: "why did you need to remove the magic from this moment?" We are still friends today (more than 10 years have passed), and I always bring this exchange up. I was (and still am) so amazed by this, because for me (raised as an atheist) the "magic" and amazement came mainly from the knowledge of all these details and intricacies that created that moment. No God, fairy or magic was needed for me to experience the sheer awe of that beautiful vision, but the scientific facts behind it made all the experience even more astonishing. Some people just need their reality to be fantastic (as in derived from fantasy). (Sorry for my English, cheers from Brazil)
I can't believe Craig is taken seriously by anybody. I can't believe the other skeptic, Cosmic, seems to respect him. 0:10 basically says, "If reality was this way, then we'd be unable to handle the implications, therefore reality is not this way." Craig, you cannot change reality through sheer inability to cope with it.
@alkis WRT "...you cannot change reality through sheer inability to cope with it..." agreed, but this: humans do exhibit a strange tendency to compensate by creating elaborate narratives to explain things that they factually do not understand. why instead they do not simply attempt to engage that which terrifies them, seems sort of an evolutionary defect.
Sounds like he's a Christian out if fear that he won't have a purpose, this is a huge waste of words to say he believes because it's a comfort blanket.
I was talking to one of my coworkers and shes an orthodox christian. One night she said to me "im so happy i have my religion, because otherwise id have no idea what to believe in" and that really hit me. Like "wow, shes genuinely terrified that her life might have no meaning. She's devoted her entire life to this faith that she doesn't know how to live for herself" i honestly sympathize for everyone who grew up in a strict religious household, because they've had to do exactly what their faith says and nothing else, you're never allowed to make your own opinions on anything using your own intelligence and logic. Its really tragic
I personally feel that because of things like this, some religious people have a sort of placebo effect, of feeling they have the answers and can do more, when theres no conclusive evidence for their case, but theyve proved it to themselves
There's far more than conclusive evidence for the case of Christianity; Found in the resurrection of Christ (historicslly documented by impartial sources and the Bible (which is a historical document,)) the many revelations of Christ and our Holy Mother Mary, with miracles upon miracles. The groundwork is laid out - both the intellectual and the theological one. What's left is for you to take the step and have faith in Christ or if you will live by your own rules in this life and then perish. The choice is simple
Well, i think this is an implicit acknowledgement of what we atheists claim: humans create God, not the other way around. Believers NEED God to give their lives a purpose. They don't say "we believe in God because there's evidence". They say "we believe in God because otherwise life would make no sense". Exactly! The next step would be becoming an atheist.
except that believers don't really need god to have a purpose. 99% of the things they do have nothing to do with god. what theists really mean when they talk about the meaning of life is the after-life.
they don't really believe in god, they just sort of hope there is a god. why else would they wear seatbelts? or call the fire department? or get medical treatment? death that is not suicide should according to them, get them into heaven, but how come they reject that easy path? it's because deep down, they know there is nothing after, and so they cling to this life.
Wearing a seatbelt doesn’t mean u just hope there is a god . Unless u have a death wish people fight to extend their life it has nothing to do with god. Does that mean no atheist wear belts ? Does that load is shit come with a garden hose to wash off said shit ?
@@vikinghawk3358 If you really believe in a heavenly paradise why would you fight to extend life? In fact, Christianity was an originally a death cult preparing for the end times. Paul told people not to marry because the end was imminent.
@@vikinghawk3358 the opposite, if you believe in an afterlife, then this life has less value, so you'd fight less to preserve it. Since Atheist in general don't believe in an afterlife, it's only natural that we'd fight to prolong it, thus we will use a seatbelt.
@@therougesage7466 Atheism is just the rejection of the claim that god exist. Atheists will reject the christian god because of the lack of consistency in the story and dogma, but that doesn't mean that an atheist can't believe in some other crazy story (like aliens for example). Therefore saying that an atheist must be consistent is meaningless as there is no dogma/religion/system/ etc.. in atheism since it's the rejection of a claim. Read more about the burden of proof to understand how logic works in the matter of making claims.
@@Jonathan.T.1000 how dim can you be ? honestly , to lack consistency as a properly basic value to carry your word view forward with , and without it good luck making any sense
It has been a while since I first started questioning God. It scared me. This same mindset that if there was no God then there was no true happiness persisted in my mind. The only way I could explain it was that I felt like I was drowning, and there was nothing to pull me out. With this channel, I am realizing that this mindset is false, and that I can overcome it. It won't be easy though. My Mami is an immigrant from Mexico. She had me later in life, so she is now 56. I remember, one day, she asked me what God had ever done to me. I was born a miracle, she said. I tried to explain my viewpoint, and she slapped me. It's hard, and we haven't really talked about God since then. I do hope I can get through it. Thanks again, and I apologize for ranting.
Being Puerto Rican and recently coming out as atheist, the study you cited is truly helpful and serves of support for the community. Thank you so much for sharing it, Drew! 🇵🇷
"an atheist can make sense of life just by the pleasure of living it" That is EXACTLY what I was thinking all the way through this video. I try to live life moment to moment, grateful for each moment that comes my way. I would certainly report myself as a happy person. Why do you need "objective meaning" anyway? Craig's argument is nothing but TAG, which is inherently circular.
When you describe the bad place you were in when you first left Christianity, because of those teachings, it just shows how toxic organized religion can be. When they feel the need to scare people into sticking around and have no qualms about doing so.
I get that a lot of people were burn't by organized religion (believe it or not I was too. I grew up going to a Mormon church until I was, like 10 or so), but how does that translate into a rejection of God? I mean if He is or was ever real, the religious offenders didn't create Him. I mean if they lied to you about who God is, did it occur to you maybe they didn't know who God is either? It seems like people only assume these religious pirates made God up because either they got burnt by them, or they are weary of getting burnt (possibly because they got burnt by something else?) I didn't know God when I stopped going to the mormon church, but at least I knew that IF He existed it was not dependent on mine or anyone else acceptance or interpretation of Him.
@@jonathanbaker4361 A decent god would do something about all the priests and vicious fossils that use its name to excuse every form of abuse imaginable. All that leaving it to fester does is make victims question why he didn't save them, either coming to the conclusion that they did something to deserve it or god is a callous villain. Either he's made up or is willing to let millions of innocent people think that being violated was part of his grand design. I could spend hours listing off all of the sins of the abrahamic god but I think that wraps it up quite nicely.
@@jonathanbaker4361 Despite my harshness, i'm genuinely willing to discuss this. I hope you will forgive me for being blunt, I've both experienced religious abuse first-hand and spent a great deal of time and energy trying to console loved ones who've experienced it as well. this is kind of a personal subject for me and i do not want you to come away from this thinking that I think you're a horrible person for having your own beliefs. My only complaint is against the organized religion, not you as a person.
The "symptoms" you describe regarding your recovery from religion, sound remarkably similar to what a drug addict or drinker might experience when they finally begin to kick the habit !
the day I became atheist I was incredibly relieved tbh, I was actually the most depressed right before that when I was muslim lol. many atheists are still afraid of hell because of their previous beliefs, because they can't disprove its existence. I've always loved reading about different religions, studying theology and learning about how religions came to be was a hobby of mine, so I simply read how hell came to be in islam (youre video about it was almost exactly what I learned at the time). and now, I do good things because it's the right thing to do, not to escape eternal torture lol. btw, hell in islam is called Jahannam, it was copied directly from gehenna lol
If God does not exist morality is not real and life is without purpose? Well that's a depressing outlook on life. I find the world to be beautiful and the people in it are- mostly- not mediocre and that's enough for me IG.
Then you clearly can’t tell much, humanity develops metaphysical beliefs in all places in all times and will for all times, if your born into a spiritual worldview pretending isn’t required
@@admiralkipper4540 True, but in a world where information is available to more and more people, which also means that facts, information and answers to about any question that _can_ be answered is available in your very pocket, makes ignorance more and more a rather forced necessity, than a natural excuse. What I mean by that is fairly simple; If I can look up, or search for _any_ verse in the Bible or Qur'an at any time, or get myself a briefly educated on Thomas Aquinas in 5-15 minutes on-the-fly, I seriously should expect to hear from religious people who denies evolution flat, that they actually _knew,_ or had some brief knowledge about what they're denying. If they're discussing the bible, I _should_ expect they knew the book better, but they usually don't. _Pretending it's true, pretending it's perfect, pretending knowledge._
@@ingebygstad9667 my comment points out only that a genuinely held belief is not someone pretending to know something, they believe it to be true regardless of whatever anyone else may say
@@admiralkipper4540 - Interesting that these metaphysical beliefs humans come up with have been different around the world, as if everyone is making up their own and there isn't one true set of beliefs... just the same need for answers and the same readiness to invent them. You can see it in the way these beliefs develop. Beginning with the idea of sympathetic magic, that depictions of successful hunts on a wall can encourage success in real life hunts. Then people invented spirits to inhabit all the aspects of the world to explain how things move and grow. Some of those spirits were believed to be human ancestors who hang around to guide or disapprove of their descendants. Eventually someone came up with the idea of gods and it caught on with tribes around the world inventing their own. The Hebrews had a few in their pantheon up until three thousand years ago, when they got the idea of having just one god from the Egyptians who had attempted to simplify and centre their beliefs around Ra, and later Horus. Yahweh's solo career was more successful than either of the Egyptian gods... but then there arose the problem of why a supreme being would allow evil and suffering in the world. Fortunately contact with Zoroastrianism provided the answer... an adversary who works to test the supreme being! Thus was Satan invented. The Abrahamic religions have gone through many drafts and changes and still do with the various denominations and sects. To believe that any version somehow managed to be true requires pretence and a rigid devotion to remaining ignorant of any facts that demonstrate otherwise.
I'd like to ask Craig this question. "Suppose there is no god but all these people still get their meaning and purpose from the belief in this non existent god. Is that still a good place to get meaning and purpose?"
Unfortunately he wouldn't be able to process the question. That's the thing with arguing with a theist as an atheist, you have such a different world view that the most basic of communication becomes near impossible.
I'd like to ask him what he thinks of people who find a meaning and purpose to their lives through dedication to a non-Christian religion. Buddhists are not theists, so what does he think of Buddhist monks who actually live immersed in a purpose without God? WLC is one of the most narrow minded people on earth, and what is worse, he is fairly well self-educated and chooses to be narrow minded because of his desperate need to believe. I see him as a tragic and pathetic character. Much like Oedipus, he is a victim of circumstances of his own making.
You don't even need to go that far. The concluding paragraph in his article presents atheism and Biblical Christianity as "the two alternatives". He completely and deliberately ignores not only non-theistic religions and not only theistic religions that believe in other Gods than his, but also religions that believe in the same God as Christianity like Islam and Judaism. You shouldn't bother with atheistic Buddhism, just ask him about Quranic Islam.
I'm actually pretty fascinated by the idea that the absurd and the meaningful cannot coexist. It's my favorite story telling style like "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once". It is both bonkers absurd yet deeply moving and shows how we can still find joy and meaning in that despite everything.
Worse, it attempts to bolster the very weak, long-countered Pascal's Wager by applying the No True Scotsman fallacy to only _some_ of its counter-arguments. I'm honestly a bit surprised that he shows his hand at the end by actually mentioning Pascal's Wager.
@@bloodgain Many theists find Pascal's Wager quite compelling. Some years back, I had a Philosophy professor who was convinced Pascal had settled the issue.
@@SylviusTheMad well if you ignore every other religious claim, focusing and assuming only Christianity is the right one then ofc pascal's wager is a safe bet, yet morally bankrupt but at least you're technically set.
@@mihaimoldo If we were able to decide that Christianity is the true religion, that means we are able to distinguish between a true religion and a false one. But if we could do that, then Pascal's Wager has no purpose, because we can just test each religion in turn to decide if it's true or not, until we find the true one or eliminate all of them as false. Pascal's Wager is used because we don't know Christianity is true, but it sneaks the assumption that it is true under the table. Very bad form.
I would almost qualify that with saying American Christians. Even priests and theologians in Sweden don't seem to hold such a view. It's not that they don't know Christianity. What WLC says is essentially what Christians mean by Good News. Your life isn't meaningless, without purpose, etc. because Jesus. Educated Christians in Sweden do not hold that view because they live in Sweden. Holding that view in Sweden would be self-contradictory. Not just Sweden, but 1/3 of the world. People just aren't that into religion. The book Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment was published in the US more than a decade ago and should be the end of it. It's also the thing that annoys me the most with American apologists and theologians, as well as the like of J. Peterson. That is, they pretend nothing outside of the US exists. I have much less issue with the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church. Nothing odd about this. E.g., it much easier to deal with racists who are honest about their racism than racists who try to confuse and obfuscate the issue with things like "race realism." Let me tell you one thing about Sweden, as it is where I am. "The meaning of life" is not generally seen as a metaphysical question here, but rather a mundane question that demands a matter-of-fact answer. Religion is a deeply personal issue here, one which you don't talk about. Like one's sex life. If religion is personal, why wouldn't the meaning of life be? People here find meaning and purpose in friends and family and everything they can and do. Egalitarianism is often said to be the religion of Sweden, but I think it's rivaled by leisure.
@isle9 Indeed. WLC only insist on this because it makes him and his fellow Christians feel better about themselves. And I fixed typos. This is what I mean by priests here not believing in the "Christian message": th-cam.com/video/W-kANR1vJkM/w-d-xo.html It's from the The Norden - Religion. It's time stamped. They are Danish priests, but close enough.
This is really interesting, and thanks for the link! Weirdly enough, I never quite realized that religious belief _is_ a personal, near private thing until I saw people go on and on and bloody on about it on US tv, and in the most annoying way possible: either rattling down unfounded claims ("atheists can't be moral because you need religious believes for that" ???!*censored*!! ) or blissfully ignoring science ("nobody was there to witness it" ), or repeating the same speech for ten years. Religious believes are something to be talked about with close friends or family members, not marketed on tv. I have this vague impression that that Scandinavians as a whole are more connected to nature, and at the same time more self-reliant. A bit of a "winter is coming" mind set, if you'll forgive the phrase: an awareness that there are very real forces of nature and if you get snowed in without fire wood, fuel or food, no deity is going to miracle you out of it. Sorry, I'm aware that might be mostly a fantasy of mine, but at least I can promise you that I had it in place before I watched Game of Thrones ;)
As someone who was born and raised as an atheist, it’s so odd to hear things like “god given purpose”. It’s such an alien concept to me that people thinking it’s required to be happy is sort of hilarious to hear every time I hear it. I feel for people that had to revamp their worldview when exiting their faith just to feel like they could be happy. It really is just a different way of consuming your experience that is life.
i was also born and raised as an atheist, i fell lucky that i was born and raised as an atheist because it gives me an objective view of things, my parents simply didn't tell me about religion until i found out and asked them myself, which allowed me to have my own personal view on religion (which my parents encouraged) and it helps me discredit arguments from both sides (yes, certain arguments from atheists were made poorly and can be disproven, although literally every argument made by theists is easily disproven). it's weird that i have barley seen other born and raised atheists.
For me, I had the whole meaninglessness trauma when I was 10 years old, it was shortly after my parent's divorce and I had lots of trouble sleeping. Overall I had become a more depressed person, and constantly worried about what happens after death. It was around then that I was questioning Christianity and eventually came to the conclusion that it's not something I believe in. Since then I've become much happier and matured a lot because of this experience, I've come to terms with it all and now I feel like a much happier and complete person.
I went to a similar age of depression when I was 9 staying up late and crying in bed, I'm 14 now and my birthday is in 2 weeks I am in a religious family, we are not Christians we are Sikhs but I THINK I'm hiding in the closet as an atheist... I don't know what to do...
@@anthrosapien3784 This is a problem that people who offer advice online cannot help you with. If you honestly tell your family the truth - would it end badly - or would they accept your decision for what it is? Would it be wise to keep your new found freedom to yourself - for the sake of peaceful harmony - or would you feel better for no having to hide the truth anymore? At age 14, you're just 4 years from independence - which seems like a very long time when you're 14, but a mere blink of an eye if you're in your 60's (as I happen to be). Fact is - NOBODY but you can make this call. Only you know your family well enough - and only you can tell how much better you might (or might not) feel about telling the world - versus keeping it quiet for a while longer. I have to say that I know very little about the Sikh religion - but Wikipedia defines it as: *_"Any human being who faithfully believes in One Immortal Being; eleven gurus, from Guru Nanak to Guru Granth Sahib; the teachings of the 6 Gurus, 15 bhagats, 11 bhatts, 4 Gursikhs and the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru."_* Woah - that's a LOT of weird shit to believe in! It's like "Sorry - I think there are only 14 bhagats - so I guess I'm not a Sikh anymore!" Well, congratulations on at least knowing yourself...clearing your head of a total of 41 mythical/supernatural beings(!!) must be a huge relief!
@@SteveBakerIsHere I'm still not entirely sure if I'm atheist cause in the outside I do feel as though I am a sikh but then again deep down I don't truly believe in it, I'm kinda stuck I don't know if I really am an atheist or not... And it's causing me a lot of stress
@@anthrosapien3784 The "on the inside" part is fairly easy. Just ask yourself: *_"Do I believe that all of this complicated set of gods and prophets and all of these complicated teachings and dress codes are true?"_* If you don't think that this could all be reasonably true - then, congratulations, you're an "Atheist". If you're uncertain whether it's all true or not - then you're an "Agnostic". Only if you're very sure that it's all true (and it looks like you aren't) - would you be described as a religious believer. Some people would say (rather reasonably, actually) that NOBODY can be 100% certain that there is a god - or that there is not...so TECHNICALLY, everyone is an agnostic. However, it's more reasonable to say that people have a really hard time believing in all of this stuff - are (in practical terms) "Atheists"...even if they admit to being unable to prove it - and even if they have a small amount of doubt. I am an atheist (and have pretty much always been one)...but my feeling is this: There are roughly 4,200 religions in the world - plus one other option...atheism. Which of those is 4,200 religions is the true one - because whichever it is - the other 4,199 of them clearly aren't! Your religion is what it is, not because you've gone and looked at all 4,200 rellgions and said "THIS ONE IS RIGHT!!" - no - that's not what happened. You are Sikh ONLY because your parents are. If you'd been born in to a family of Catholics - you'd be a Catholic and you'd never even consider become a Sikh. So the ONLY reason that your particular religion is the "true" one is because your parents thought so...and the only reason THEY thought so was because your grandparents thought so...it's all an accident of birth. At no point did any of these people say "Hold on a minute? Maybe my ancestors had it all wrong? Maybe Islaam is true? Maybe the Catholics have it right? What about the Aghori or the Raelians? So any logical thinking person (which you clearly are) - should be wondering not just whether there is god or no god - but which of all of these thousands of ways to worship are correct? I mean - if the Islaamists are right - then you're in deep trouble come the after-life! I think that if there really was a god - then there would be FAR fewer religions in the world - because those who are currently getting it wrong would have been told that in some kind of divine revelation or something. Since that evidently doesn't happen - I don't think there can be a god. Wikipedia says __*"Sikhism rejects claims that any particular religious tradition has a monopoly on Absolute Truth."*_ WOW!! I think this is an important (and rather refreshing) idea! If you *_do_* decide to tell your parents about your feelings (and I'm not saying that you either should - or should not!) - then perhaps that's an important starting point. Ask them about that...see what they say! If Sikhism rejects the idea that even their own religion has the "Absolute Truth" - then perhaps your parents should accept that you wish to seek this truth in other ways? (But then they could also get REALLY upset with you and not listen to a single word you say! Only you can guess their reaction.) "Hey Mom...why are we Sikhs?" Nibble at the problem around the edges. Most atheists will say that their view of the world...the universe...what it is to be human...comes from science and mathematics. But both science and mathematics agree with the Sikh statement about "Absolute Truth" being impossible to attain. The discoveries of Godel, Heisenburg, Turing, Russell and others are solid, rigorous proof that not everything is knowable - even theoretically. There will always be mysteries in the universe. So if you are planning on breaking the news to your parents, perhaps you should come armed with these kinds of thoughts - and make them more questions than outright statements.
While I haven't had the "atheists are miserable" trope thrown my way, I hear variations on the theme quite often. Oddly enough it isn't from where I occasionally worship. Many years ago I became a Quaker. It was a spiritual expression which made the most sense to me. Having grown up going to Catholic schools, I found it refreshing to discover a religion which didn't try to impose its dogma on me. The authoritarianism and its often nonsensical notions (to me) were the main reasons I left the Roman Catholic Church a very long time ago. I had always struggled with faith. Even the idea of believing in evidence unseen didn't sit well with my skeptical nature. While at university, I came to the conclusion that the existence of God, and therefore God Himself was unknowable. Some thirty years ago I joined a 12 Step fellowship to overcome my substance abuse problems. There was a lot of talk of God, but no one imposed their conception of a deity upon me. After several months of struggling with having some sort of faith in a Higher power, I began to believe. And my journey with Quakerism began. Now I have lived on and off with depression pretty much all my life. I've had major depressive bouts when I wasn't a believer and I've had some when I was a believer. So I can't say whether there is a direct causal relationship. I can say that during the first dozen years or so of my recovery, I did have more success dealing with it. However it is unclear whether that success was due to my belief in some spiritual development or because I was no longer consuming substances which are known depressants. Unfortunately, I contracted a chronic debilitating illness for which there is no known cure. It isn't fatal. But I'll admit there are times I wish it was. It turned my life upside down and I've had to live with it for nearly thirty years. To say I am weary of this condition would be an understatement. I have learned a great many things during all those years. But my lessons came at a steep cost. And for the last few years, I have slowly lost faith in some "magical" being which could bring me strength and support when needed. So this is where I find myself today. I still attend 12 Step meetings. After 33 years of sobriety, I have seen what can happen when one forgets what active addiction was like and starts imagining one can now safely enjoy that which once nearly proved fatal. Actually my greatest fear is that I would drive while intoxicated and wind up killing someone. So that is the dilemma I struggle with, going to meetings, grateful for that which has helped me stay sober all these years, and yet unable to believe in a God; a God of which I hear people talking on almost a daily basis. There are two things I have learned which are touched upon in this video. One, it is up to me to create meaning in my life. Whether I do it by serving a Higher purpose or my fellow human beings, or whether I use some other outlet for creative expression which is not centered on a God, it is still my choice and I still have to be an active participant in the creation of that meaning. No handed down purpose will have the same weight or value. For my life to have any true satisfaction for me, I need to take responsibility for it. Otherwise it becomes just a drudge to be endured, imposed upon me by some external agent. And that only leads to resentment and despair. The other thing is the pursuit of happiness is a mugs game. If I make happiness my goal, it will always elude me. I will always be searching for that person, thing or activity which will make me happy. But, I have found, if I do the best I can to make the world a better place, in however a small way, if I make that my goal, then happiness will turn up as a by-product. That has been borne out in my experience, over and over again.
That fact that your reason for not drinking alcohol and driving is that you fear you might cause harm to another person or persons unknown, means that you are, in my estimation, a basically good person in your core. From me to you: *Thank you for being that good person who genuinely cares about others!* 😊👍
Yeah, there are variation of it, for sure and had many thrown at me too. And it's all projection from them. lol Trying to tell me how I feel, hahaha. Constant appeal to emotion fallacies with them.
Christian here, and I just wanted to say I’m sorry that you went through such a difficult time! Fear definitely ought not be the thing that brings someone to or keeps someone with Jesus. It’s to be God’s kindness both through Jesus and His people. Thank you for sharing such thought-provoking work and encouraging people to seek out truth!
Wow, that was impressive. One point I found myself saying out loud was “it’s not a choice”. Atheism was not a choice for me. You can’t unsee it and be one of truly faithful.
@@kronos01ful You are putting the cart before the horse here. You must prove objectively that "an absolute truth" exists and such a thing is necessary to derive meaning. People give their lives their own meanings.
it's a bit like taking drugs. The first times it brings you good feelings, then you get addicted and think that you _have_ to take the drug in order to be happy...
I must admit that for me it comes as quite a shock how to so many people leaving christianity can be such a struggle. For me it was like immediate freedom, and I felt nothing like being left out of a community, fear of losing a job, or general lack of purpose in life. It must really come down to how deep christianity is rooted in each society. In some they really make everything they can to make you fearful of leaving.
He doesn’t need to, because obviously everyone thinks like him and anyone who says otherwise is obviously willfully ignorant of god obvious intentions (this is satire, if u couldn’t tell)
My 2nd cousin told me flat out on FB that I was unhappy & miserable for being an atheist. I told her " thanks for assuming something about life that you know nothing about. She actually,apologized and said she was miserable until she turned to Jesus. I said that's fine and all,but that's not how I handle my life. She later went all crazy Qanon on me and I had to block,her.
“Life is without meaning, value, or purpose to athiests” Well yes, but actually no Life itself is kind of meaningless, however we can make our own purposes and values, there is no grand purpose just whatever we put our lives towards and do to better ourselves and humanity. Life isn’t about reaching somewhere. Its not a trial to have a true experience. It is the true experience
It's a matter of perspective. In the grand scheme of things we are just tiny organisms that exist for a super short time and have no significance to the universe itself. From my perspective, the universe is emotionless and we and at least all other social animals add that and much more to the universe. We are the parts of the universe that feel and love and express and experience beauty. Let's see a god try that. Let's see a god fear loss and find consolation.
Yeah. I just feel like theists only believe in god out of fear. They are afraid of the unknown and thus rather believe in some creator who gives their life a purpose then to tackle everything that life throws at them themselves. Theist are actually the sad ones because they are dependent on something that doesn’t exist. They don’t have a free will. All their actions must align with what god wants. I as an non believer am free to do what ever I want. I don’t need to follow any imaginary rules I only have to follow the laws of my country. Without having to think about the possibility that I am always judged by some being.
I've struggled with severe depression my entire life and one of the most helpful changes I have ever made was when I accepted the fact that I am an atheist and stopped trying to force myself to believe in unsubstantiated claims. Accepting my atheism didn't make me suddenly happy, but it immediately clarified the things I value and desire. My purpose was no longer mired by the purpose that religions told me I should have.
If the existence of human beings is without meaning or purpose for them if God doesn't exist, then God's existence is without purpose or meaning if he too does not have his own God.
This is like a weard extension of the argument that if everything needs a creatior (as the theists seem to imply) then who created the creator, and if you figure out who created the creator, then who created the creator creator. Yaknow.
It sounds like Craig is playing the old game of setting the definitions so that he cannot lose. Pathetic, but it pays the bills (handsomely). Also, who says that the Universe requires us to be happy? I am happy, by the way. Without gods. He still has to prove that gods exist. That is the only question.
Not having an eternity to look forward to, or dread, means all the time we have is our life on earth. Making something more rare actually makes it more valuable, so if you reduce the amount of time we have, you increase its value. Recognizing the value of your limiting, fleeting moments on this earth can make you appreciate it more, not less.
I'd rephrase that as knowing that nothing comes after death makes you want to enjoy the human experience more. If you are an atheist and a skeptic, you don't believe in any form of afterlife, this isn't a case of "not being able to know"
@@Green__one not necessarily all athiest aren't alike we only share one thing in common which is that we don't belive in a deity other then that one can belive in the afterlife without a deity and so on
@@Green__oneHi green1. I am an atheist and a sceptic but I don't "know" what comes after death. I think there is nothing but until I fully understand the nature of consciousness, fundamental physical laws and the nature of time , I don't believe I can "know".
@@martifingers I'll give you the atheist point, however you cannot possibly be a skeptic and believe in an afterlife. Skepticism requires that you reject that which cannot be proven. And as such skepticism firmly rejects an afterlife.
8:20 "Let's pretend the universe has meaning. And this is just fooling ourselves". So you can pretend (as in fully believe) that god exist and it gives you purpose in life but my stuff is crap because there's no baby Jeebus in it? Bruh.
Feeling like you’ve lost your whole life (e.g. friends, activities, church connected job, family) when you leave Christianity is by design so that you will feel hopeless and in despair and return.
@@csongorarpad4670 How are unbelievers treated? Maybe your particular denomination is different - where my family is from unbelievers are... frowned upon.
I was never happy as a Christian. No matter how hard I tried not to do things I had been taught were sinful, I still sinned. So I constantly felt ashamed of myself. My time as a member of the church did help me get my life on the road that I wanted it on, but ultimately, it could do nothing for my sense of self worth, or for my overall happiness. Part of my path toward leaving the church was realising that nobody in my church community was seeking a connection with each other. They only sort connection with God. When I accepted that I would never have a satisfactory connection with God, and I turned to other people for connection, I was surprised to find that that need was filled almost instantly. I have never felt more alone than I did as a Christian, in a room full of Christians.
“Objective meaning” and there it is. You think god makes your definition of life’s meaning objective. Until you can prove that a deity exists, and that it is YOURS, your life does not have objective meaning. No one’s does. It is purely subjective. You cannot gain objective meaning from a deity you can’t prove exists. You’re essentially saying, “my subjective god gives me objective meaning.” No, your subjectively chosen IDEA of god has made you feel worth and meaning. And don’t lie, it is subjectively chosen. You didn’t chose it via some objective fact in the belief system. You likely grew up with it, and instead of challenging your beliefs with the fact that you’re possibly the victim of child indoctrination, you double down and dig in your heels. You can’t prove your beliefs any more than a Muslim can, or a Jew, a Protestant, a Hindu, or a Budist. You subjectively chose one and now your claiming it gives your life objective meaning. You essentially gave yourself meaning, and then claimed it was god. Yet you seem happy? It’s almost like people can make their own meanings in life and be happy. Who’d have thought?
Wrong ... "Until you can prove that a deity exists ... your life does bot have objective meaning". That sentiment is so clearly wrong man, do you seriously believe that? Our "beliefs" have NO impact on the reality of the situation. There are 2 options: Either a God exists that created the universe with objective morals ... or not. What I believe about those two options doesn't change which one is true AT ALL. Why do so many people believe that their beliefs about a topic can change reality and objective truth? As an example to help you think more clearly about this, consider conjectures in Maths. Once a conjecture is proven true, then we know that it was always true and there was never a point at which it wasn't true. That logically means that throughout history there are, have been, and will be conjectures that are true but not proven. The fact they are not proven in now way affects the objective truth value of the conjecture.
Some of these nutters should come for a holiday in East Germany. 80% atheists here. Seems pretty normal though. People are doing just fine, consistently and happily.
WLC: 'Life in a universe with God is inherently and objectively meaningful' ...is it? Why? I've seen this sort of thing asserted many times. But never an argument to support it.
It's a false tautology...oh, that's the phrase, "Circular Argument". By defining God as the objective source of meaning, any life with God necessarily is objectively meaningful. Denying God, per the argument, thus also denies an objective source of meaning to reality/life. Which apparently people struggle with...but idk.
@@scambammer6102 There's a metaphysical value to "objective", as well as a psychological angle we could take it. But the core of both is that having something situated as "objective" gives us a consistent point of reference. It lets people set a statement such as "This is true because it's true" and "This is valuable because it's valuable" as an axiom. Because people struggle to think for themselves and think through their preconceived notions. :P
I really enjoy your content, dude. I like the insightful and thought provoking questions you ask in a non-agressive, but serious tone. I'm a Christian myself and it's nice hearing someone else's perspective on things. I've been asking a lot of questions recently. It seems like few of my Christian family or friends really understand me when I try to share my thoughts with them.
From our perspective that's obvious. But remember that he doesn't think his religion was made up, he truly believes it to be divine truth handed down from god himself. This is what makes it so difficult for someone like me who has never believed, to even have a discussion with someone like that. We truly have no common frame of reference to start from, we may as well have grown up in different galaxies.
Funny thing is, theists all have plans and goals that are 99% secular. What they actually do rarely has any connection to their purported religious belief. If their belief disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't affect their actual lives at all, except for saving a few hours on Sunday. I have seen Matt Dilly make this point pretty well, essentially: "I have all the same values that you have. I just have more time on Sunday."
Change the at least Part, there is nothing desirable Living believing in something that is supposed to give you meaning - instead of making your own life the best it can be.
@@R-SXX tbh tho some people just need a meaning to live, it straight up makes them happier and want to live if they believe their good behaviour and deeds won't go to waste, that what they sacrifised wasn't meaningless. This is also why some atheists go back to theist. in this case religion is a tool to make each day brighter, the only harm in being theist now is if they decided to never give a choice to their kids about being atheist or not.
@@BlurpGooDiJabba You don't suffer because of any perceived truth. You suffer because you decide that's what you need to do. That's the church speaking, not an actual god.
Andrew, I just want to take a moment and tell you what a GREAT help you’ve been to me and my journey from religion. You helped me see things in life that I never have before and helped me understand those things I saw that I didn’t understand. Thank you so much for all your help! Keep up the good work and overwhelming evidence!
Listen to Jonathan Haidt's "The Happiness Hypothesis" here: audibletrial.com/gmskeptic
Also, have any of you had the "atheists are miserable" trope thrown at you? How did that affect you, if at all?
It's protecting, if you ask me. Like unhappy parents telling child free couples they can't be happy without kids. Misery loves company.
08:35. I often hear "equivocate" misused for "equate" or being equal.
You can't eqivocate two facts as being equal. Equivocate does not take an object.
I find it funny that Theists consider God an "objective meaning", when they themselves say that God purposefully let man have free will to do whatever the hell he wants, and gives them no proof of His existence. As such, He never has been an objective meaning, as you have to fully focus of pure faith with lack of factual evidence. There is no objective meaning, life is based on the subjective meaning you give it yourself.
Granted, these are the same people who believe that we get morality from God and ignore the concept of empathy, so of course they'd say dumb things like that.
Hey Drew I was wondering if certain media (like Pokemon or Yugioh) was blocked off by your parents from you?
I like that you skipped the rehashed, first part of his article. Ty
I've always despised the idea that life has no value without a deity. Just the fact that there is no "divine purpose" doesn't make our lives not worthwhile living.
It's the opposite for me. As an atheist, I don't see any meaningfulness to any humans life, only that we are alive therefore we should make use of the opportunity. It's pessimistic, I know, but it works.
Edit: Also not saying that theists suddenly have a meaning in life just because of their faith, faith isn't something I would use to judge whether I should be living my life how I want to or not.
One could argue the possibilities of life is even more vast and worthwhile with a near infinite amount of experiences and goals you can find happiness and fulfillment from instead of being limited by what one religion says you must do to live a good life.
The flying spaghetti monster compells you to see reason. He's the one true God. May his noodley appendages guide you to everlasting noodle soup. Ramen.
@@proculusjulius7035 @topcommentgod
@@varunmohan3760 Camus' Absurdism is what I find most comforting
I was Christian until around 15 years old, I was miserable, always paranoid I was doing something wrong or born bad. Ever since I stopped following that religion I have been happier, giving my life meaning and purpose.
goes to show how it's hugely a different-strokes-for-different-folks sorta thing, and that those criticizing atheism for making life "meaningless" haven't had enough conversations with us.
@@stirpiano I hear you. Our lives and their meanings are based on our perception, regardless of religion. I see a lot of people attacking atheism and basically implying all atheists are nihilists, but that is simply not the case.
Its usually what was your relationship with God really like
@Holyservant123 Ah the good ol' "you weren't actually a Christian"
my bad I changed my views people can a real Christian and not become one@@ImieNazwiskoOK
That's almost like saying adult life is unlivable because you no longer have your parents telling you to eat your veggies and do your chores. It confuses me how they fail to consider (or maybe disregard) the fulfillment most people find in independence and self-resposibility as a driving force in life.
I’m definitely stealing that analogy lol
Haha, for real!
They don't know of the social contract. Like true sociopaths
Or it's like saying that you cannot enjoy your hobby that you freely chose for yourself, you can only enjoy your unpleasant job at Amazon where Jeff Bezos micromanages everything you do, even when you can go to the toilet.
It's not true of everyone, but many people enjoy their days off work more than they enjoy their work. Because nobody is telling them what to do on their day off. Of course, they may have family commitments, but still enjoy "me time."
As usual, WLC is spouting nonsense.
Well, in fact, my parents - Catholics in their 70s - are still looking for someone to praise them for eating their veggies and doing their chores, figuratively and literally. My Mom often tells me proudly that she was “good” with her diet recently, and she wants me to tell her “good job.”. Both parents are scrupulous about keeping their yard ship-shape and the house inside tidy and clean. They fret endlessly over neighbors who they judge to be falling short. (My ramshackle house drives them bonkers.). They are wholly capable upstanding adults who raised happy, productive children, but emotionally they themselves are like children. I started to notice this around age 11 myself. And then Trump came along and took advantage of a huge population in that state. They demand freedom but, like children, have no sense of the responsibility that is the other side of that freedom.
The funny thing is, when I was deeply Christian, I was consistently 𝘶𝘯𝘩𝘢𝘱𝘱𝘺. I was constantly terrified of doing wrong. Constantly ashamed of myself when I “sinned”. Constantly shunned by my family/Christian society. Since I stopped believing in that stuff-(I am agnostic), I have been much happier. And way more consistently happy. Purpose of us means so much more because we choose to give meaning to ourselves and others. Not because some high being decides it so. That’s so much more satisfying!
This reply is not to say Christianity is true. Its to emphasize how a Christian should live. For example, I struggle with always doing wrong. I will always do wrong. It is inevitable. I feel ashamed. But then I remember what Jesus Christ did for me. He wiped away my past and future sins. I rejoice at this. The more I see sin in me, the more sorrowful I am. Which makes me look at Christ more and also be more happy. It’s an endless paradox
but what kind of meaning is that? what kind of meaning is a self-generated meaning? It seems like lying to yourself. You try to convince yourself that there is meaning but.....really there is no meaning. Suppose you find purpose in life by feeding the hungry. All day long, you pour out your best energies in feeding the hungry. Then, one day it's all over. You find out that your feeding the hungry may have given you temporary meaning and purpose but ultimately, it all comes to nothing. How hollow is that?
@@cornopeanus self-generated meaning isn't something you choose, but rather something that gives you meaning, something that makes your life worth living, even if you're doing something good for others, like a man who can cure any disease with a simple touch, what if he doesn't want to be a doctor? what if he likes making music, or if he loves creating art, then that would be what gives his life meaning
your "propose" in life is what gives you a reason to live in the small about of time you have, what makes your life worth living,
@@cornopeanus what's the alternative? god given purpose? you can't prove god even exists, let alone any source of meaning, it really seems like lying to yourself too, and it's for sure self-generated as well
@@d_camara If God doesn't exist, then you are surely right.....my meaning is also self-generated. One thing that you cannot do without God, however, is assess whether someone's meaning is good or evil. Hitler's life had meaning too, but I take it you aren't inspired by that sort of meaning.
Kinda scary how the only reason these guys are moral is because they're afraid of burning eternally.
All stick no carrot
But they'll tell you it's because they love God 😤
They try to deflect that by saying they wouldn't be immoral if they didn't believe in god. But people who don't believe in god have an excuse to be immoral. And then the rest would deviate from here.
@@yeshuachrist2300 Stockholm Syndrome towards an imaginary interlocutor. LoL
Most people are moral because of conscience and cowardice
"Can atheists do THIS?"
*sicknasty kickflip*
Atheism DeBuNkEd!!11!
* Catholic priest with pixel meme glasses as thumbnail *
@Andrew Ramshaw I think he REALLY did the sicknasty
Damn, he’s got us there boys. Checkmate
Welp now I have to go to church.
DouchebagSaysWhat????
Reminds me of a quote, I think by George Bernard Shaw, “Saying that a believer is happier than a non-believer is no more to the point than saying a drunk man is happier than a sober one!”
@Justin Gary This video obviously went over your head..
@@basolfjeld he is copy paste troll, i don't think he has much intelligence in his brain.
Lane Craig did NOT say that atheist can't be happy. He said that non-believers happiness is inconsistent with their worldview
@@junacebedo888 As far as I know, the secretion of dopamine doesn't give a damn about non-measurable ideas.
@@junacebedo888 lol but he did say that atheists can’t be happy. Watch the video again my dude
I can actually confirm this from personal experience. I was raised with no religion at all. Any of my interactions with it have only been as an outsider, but I have never had this crisis of hope/happiness that is talked about by apologists. The idea of needing a christian belief system to find that seems like putting the cart before the horse. As an outsider, religion, at least the socially traditional ones, seems like an attempt to explain things like "hope", "morality", and "creation", rather than a basis for these things. I have personally found better answers in my pursuit of science and philosophy, and accepting that I don't have answers to the questions I can't answer. It upsets me to learn that people might contemplate suicide after leaving their faith. Hang in there everyone! I've heard a saying once, I forget exactly how it goes, but the basic idea is that: "It's not about where we end up, but the journey taken to get there." I find fulfillment and happeniess in my growth as a person, and my personal search for truth. I don't know what happens when we die. That scares me sometimes, but giving up all that I have because I don't know what happens at the end does not seem worth it to me. I hope my contribution to this conversation is helpful.
Most people I've met in Australia are raised without religion (I'm one of them btw), and this so called crisis of happiness is a foreign concept to many of them. I'd say that the need for god to provide a moral foundation is also not something they think about. Morals are easy, "does it hurt someone who isn't me?"
People need a bigger purpose for some reason. They can't just enjoy life.
Ironically, it makes their point of view much more depressing than ours
You don't believe God created evthing who created nothing.
You will be cremated when you die. You will be burnt in a fierce heated fire. How do you know you don't feel anything. When we are buried we go back to soil. If you are burnt it is ashes it is not soil two different entities.
I ask during my life
OH you, who I am going to who I am going to return to have mercy on me.
When you parents had sex and your mother felt life who blew that first life (mercy), in your mother's womb?
When your mother gave birth to you who gave her the strength and the love to push you out of her body.
Awaiting your response Tks
before I start you need to know one thing you can't disprove a non exitastant. Like if I say there is an invisible pony you can't disprove it. But you can still act as it isn't there because it affects nothing.like that god is a claim and he does nothing .
First is a hypothesis you guys think god created the universe .we hypotheised it came from nothing. The problem with god creationism is that you are just moving it to god so then we need to know what god is. So just another question. And we don't have any significant evidence for a deistic god about much less the biblical god there are thousands of gods .what makes your special?? The thing we also can't disprove any other religion. We can't disprove the non existent.!!!
Second statement you asked how we know you can't feel it. It is because the system that process pain is dead it is verified by scientic methods . so your just spouting unscientific claims without any evidence. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidences. And those claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Third claim about soil and ashes . I think you don't know what soil is . soil is the general term material that covers the surface so it includes both inorganic and organic.so again you don't know what you are talking about.
Life in mothers womb . do read biology, the zygote formed dues to gametes from both parents became a embryo and then a human child by differentiation and cell division . it is not magic. We have enough proof that cells have the ability to differentiate and multiply . the only thing we are looking is how the first life originated . I think we will able to do it in the coming decades or centuries. We have already cloned animals. Though we did stop for ethical reasons. But it just means we can create life from life . now we just need to create life from its constituent particles..
The last statement would be the chemical oxytocin. It contracts the uterine walls and helps push the child out. I
I hope you are able to read books and increase your knowledge . That is why I believe in atheism .because as far we have seen we are able to come with answers that doesn't need god so there is no reason to believe in god . and
@@nafisasalie6230 the reason why you should become an atheist is that . one there are many diseases that need cure and millions are dying if you use the time you have to pray and study bible, read get a degree become a scientist and make cures you save millions of life. If your god is merciful as you say he is then he will understand. Another why you should abandon Christianity is because religions like Islam ,etc use you as a basis for their religion . and it is oppressing millions of people. Like I said we can't disprove a non existent. So I say rather than look for heaven we don't know, why not try to create a heaven here for your fellow human beings.
That's as absurd as me saying "Christians cannot be both happy and consistent. If they are consistent, then they must necessarily always be terrified that God will cast them into hell for a sin which they did not know they have committed, and would have any recourse for since anything God does is just. Since living in a state of terror and happiness are mutually exclusive, Christians must set aside their faith for periods of time in order to feel happy, abandoning consistency."
Exactly. It’s easy to make up unfalsifiable claims like this on either side, and it gets us no closer to understanding the truth about the lived experience of atheists or Christians.
Honestly, I do feel pretty safe not believing in an all powerful being looking at me judgingly, when I'm doing private stuff. Sometimes I think "How can christians live like this?".But as we can see, they're doing just fine, so who am I to make claims about a mindset I don't understand.
Right, amazing how these jerks feel they know what other people think. Guess they don't realize how stupid they appear to efveryoneelse.
If this is the game - redefining terms to exclude your debate opponent - why does anyone engage with these individuals? I don't understand why a conversation is required when the endgame is always the same: "I already told you God is required to have these qualities, you don't believe in God, ergo you cannot have these qualities."
People that legislate our societies think in these terms. Why are they granted the benefit of the doubt? Why even casually debate them? I don't get it.
@@TypingHazard Good points.
Even if the life of an atheist WERE inherently miserable and pointless, that wouldn't make God any more likely to exist. Maybe I'd feel more purpose and wellbeing in my life if I believed in Zeus & co, does that mean they are real?
As a neopagan, I'd say that they're real from a certain point of view. As an HONEST neopagan, I have to admit that I can't prove one way or the other, and I'm personally happy with that fact. Why does everything have to have a deeper meaning? Why can't we just enjoy things because they're enjoyable?
@@kitirena_koneko you can enjoy beer and spagety, joid the fsm, the largest growing religion, ever
Your statement is pointless
@@junacebedo888 have you consdered following the teaching of the flying spaghetti monster? it requires only your love of people and food, not a belief in a god
@@junacebedo888- your statement is _passive-aggressive._
So his argument is "If God weren't real it would make me feel bad, therefore it can't be true". Wow that's compelling.
That's not his argument at all, he never said it was or presented it as an argument for God, the people who watch this channel have probably already seen WLC and his debates so should know he often presents 5 arguments for God's existence none of which are the fallacious one you use above, you can suspect underneath it all that's his real motive for believing but you can't sit there and say he's presenting that as his reasoning for belief that is flat out dishonest.
@@Mr.Goodkat His argument is this:
- God is required for meaning in life
- A lack of meaning in life is too depressing to be true
- Therefore meaning in life exists
- Therefore God exists
@@KL-lt8rc Why wait around for someone to make a poor argument, when you can just make it for them? this'll save WLC the trouble of having to actually say it himself.
@@Mr.Goodkat Literal quote from Craig:
"About the only solution the atheist can offer is that we face the absurdity of life and live bravely"
"The fundamental problem with this solution, however, is that it is impossible to live consistently and happily within such a world view"
His criticism of the atheistic worldview is that it can't produce happiness. He is arguing that atheists (whose only defining feature is a lack of belief in the existence of god) are wrong because (according to himself) their worldview is unhappy. He's defending God's existence on the premise that doing so makes people happy, by virtue of providing meaning. You can keep saying I'm mischaracterizating the argument, but I'm not.
@@KL-lt8rc Sounds like from the quote above you provided he is saying they have a fundamental problem because it's impossible for them to be happy, which would certainly be a problem for the individual if it was true but never once did he say that shows atheism is false, he never even implied that, I thought when I seen you had responded it be with him saying more what you are but that quote you provided doesn't support what you're saying.
As an atheist ( born, grown and live as an atheist, who never needed any kindness or rage from any higher being )
I was shocked.
The theistic people really think that this world we live in... is terrible, absurd, meaningless and so on? Someone's basement where the junk and trash rot together in the stinking darkness? Really? Why they hate this world?
...glad I'm atheist...
Maybe it's new for them, but I must say:
This world is amazing, beautiful, lovely, funny and first of all LIVABLE! ( Hope we will not destroy the Earth. )
This world gave life to every ancestors you have, to your father and mother, and they gave you your own personal life.
This world is your cradle, playground, wedding bed, workplace, home, toilet and grave.
This world is not only livable, but lovable too.
Men of faith - I ask just a little respect! Please!
I myself love this world, and I feel sad if someone hate it.
perhaps it is better that some hate life, than that they concentrate such capacity of hatred upon their fellow humans.
and I note that some did both.
And those people that believe in God make the world that much more miserable for everyone else to truly live because in their mind they have to be perfect and think everyone is constantly threatened with hell how can you relax and enjoy life if your always thinking that way? I would never want to believe what they believe in because I would never live my life but that's their problem they can make the choice to change and open their mind but they remain ignorant fools chained to religion and then when it all said and don they have wasted their whole life
Yeah, look at China, China has historically kept religions at bay, bar confucianism and Buddhism, both of which are more philosophies and than religion. China was the most powerful country in the world (except maybe for some short periods of civil unrest) until maybe the 16th century. At the very least, the Chinese civilization is the only one that lasted since the times of the first civilizations, all the way to modern times. (Indian civilization too, it was conquered everyone, but the conquerors ended up being assimilated everytime. Egyptian civilization is unrecognizable today. Same for Mesopotamia) The arrogance of the judeo-christian religions, along with their ignorance, is something remarkable. Their claim that they were created by their God is just so ridiculous to hear as a Chinese because we literally have writings better preserved than these ignorants from 4000 years ago, mythology inspired from people living before 4000 years ago, and some made up mythology and NONE support the claims of the creation in the Bible.
Lmao the Chinese mythology says the world was nothing, and the was a giant who felt all squeezed up by the lack of space that he pushed the space around such that space expanded. Then he pass away because he was too tired and his body became the landscape. Sounds closer to the big bang than creation in the Bible lol.
As an atheist the world is kinda hateable and sad a lot of times tbh
Late answer, but I think you misunderstand something.
When theists (especially Christians in this example) see something terrible/absurd in this world, they excuse this by having god ultimately make sense of that.
Atheists also see that life sometimes can be terrible/absurd and they have their own personal mechanisms of coping with that fact.
That does not mean that neither of those groups can't acknowledge beauty in this world.
Stating that not believing in a god leads to depression and meaningless life IS a reason why some people feel that way when they leave churches.
Ah yes, hyperstition
Drew said this exactly. He also disputes it. Which isn't difficult
Part of controlled opposition, like the idea of demons and 616.
How did you find meaning without god? I dont seem to be able to do that atm.
@@drschwandi3687 I think it's different for each one. My way was doing things that made me feel emotions, even sadness and fear are proofs that I'm alive. I have no porpoise or meaning, I'm just a individual from a species, that by itself allows me to do whatever I want. I follow my feelings and reason, do what I consider beneficial to me and others and that's it. When I die I'll be no more so if I want to be something the time is now. Hope this isn't to confuse
The myth that Christianity makes you happy is something I had to come face-to-face with in my own life when my proper "Christian" beliefs led me to what was nearly my death. I had been made to feel that I was forced to live this way or else I was damned, I lived in constant fear of what would happen to me if I left my abusive husband, and eventually it led to nearly being killed by him. At that point, I began seeing my life much more clearly and I realized that the people who had pushed me to this point in my life weren't happy either. I received encouragement to stay with my husband anyway by women who were also abused by their husbands, and I was threatened by men in the church of what would happen should I leave (likely also abusers). I never felt more hopeless than being a Christian, and I never felt more misled because I had been promised that by living this way I would be happy, and I realized that I had never even known happiness. You're right when you say that Christians who think that life has no meaning without God already have no meaning, and how could they not? They're made to believe that EVERYTHING in life is either pointless or sinful, nothing is to be enjoyed *but* God, so people like me grow up with no sense of purpose or happiness because we aren't allowed to have any. It wasn't until I did leave my abusive ex-husband and the church that I ever felt hopeful, because for once in my life, I was allowed to be. I was allowed to decide what mattered and what didn't, what to live for and what not to, what to enjoy and what I didn't care for. Freedom gave me hope, not religious fundamentalism.
I would like to leave you some loving thoughts. What you did was amazingly brave and must have been incredibly difficult. Turning yourself from a victim into a survivor taking their life into their own hands is... beyond words.
I'm so glad it turned out to be worthwile!
@@fairytala I want to add my admiration as well. Whatever the ultimate truth, your story is inspiring because it shows human potential and strength and clarity of vision : you nailed the inherent repression of this sort of religiosity "EVERYTHING in life is either pointless or sinful". Exactly right. I hope you are doing really well in your new freedom.
Thank you so much for sharing. I’m very sorry you went through that but I’m very very glad you got out of it. You have a strength in you that not many have.
Your story is inspiring for me.. Thank you for sharing.. Your struggle is not easy but you opened your mind and had vision and acted upon it.. I am happy for you breaking free... I must reflect and try to break free in my hopeless situation, RN..
Even in medical field.. Abused wives have a illness called "Battered wife syndrome" and one of its treatment is to leave ASAP and find victims to find proper channels for them to get out of their bad situation and to think you did it with yourself is amazing..
Glad you made it out with your health and sanity. Stay strong and best of luck with your newfound freedom.
The biggest conflict for me when I hear the argument of “Atheists can’t feel meaning.” Is that when I was a Christian, life felt unbelievably meaningless and pointless. Why am I waiting to die? Nothing here matters, it’s the eternity in heaven that I’m looking towards. When I shifted to being an Atheist, I felt that weight off my back and my life is meaningful because it just ends when I die. If I believed in an afterlife, that meaning disappears.
If your life continues in the afterlife why does meaning disappear?
Just want to say, we dont really know if it all ends when we die. The true nature of consciousness isnt yet understood, so what happens after death is a mystery.
This is something I really find entertaining about Abrahamic religion. It's invented a comforting afterlife, but then it needed a way to make people not just immediately try to die so they can get there, so it made suicide a sin.
@@greyblob1101 I’m aware. Simply what I personally believe
@@bolderblood5240 For me it was more so like. It isn’t what matters in the world. What matters is the afterlife and that union with god. Its an inclination towards death that kinda made my life difficult to enjoy.
Drew, the weeks after becoming an Atheist, I was afraid I'd lost both meaning and morality. I remember in the weeks that followed... one morning, I woke up and the sun was shining through the windows. And that was enough. I love sunlight. Later, I was driving down the road. A Texas rain started pouring. There was a homeless woman begging on the side of the road. I ran out and gave her my umbrella, not for Jesus, because I, as a fellow human, cared. I cried afterwards. I realized that my meaning and my morality were superior to anything given to me an outside source.
Thank you for your videos. Sometimes, I need to remember that journey and I get to share it with you without the reactiveness I get elsewhere. I think we share this, I was a minister. A lot of my friends are in ministry. I don't hate them or look down on them. The ones who are still friends with me might disagree, but we still talk, we still seek truth together. That's what it means to be humans. A lot of my fellow Atheists don't understand that, like a lot of my Christian friends didn't. You said something in a previous video I often say to my Christian friends. You said something like, "And if it turns out I'm wrong and God is real, I feel like my current beliefs are justified with my current level of knowledge." I don't know if there's a God, but if there is, that God has to be smart enough to know that I'm a tiny human trying to figure out the universe. I don't know shit. Punishing me for that would be weird.
Anyway, love your channel. Thank you!
@jon noble
and obviously it occurred to you that generosity and caring of one's fellows WITHOUT SOMEONE CONSTANTLY WATCHING or keeping score of brownie points, is the actual genuine gesture.
welcome to the rest of the world. you have some fewer things to fear now. but I do still hold some issues with man's inhumanity to man. and I still make mistakes. I still have regrets. Nobody is going to absolve me of those.
If i do "wrong" I try to make amends to them I have wronged. There are bound to be wrongs I do without even knowing, but those have to sort themselves out.
but what if instead you had gone up to the homeless man and kicked him in the ribs? on a secular worldview, how does that differ from giving him an umbrella? and btw...thanks for doing that; it was noble and kind.
@@cornopeanus I don't think insane humans kick people in the ribs for no reason any more than bees sting for no reason. Even animals adopt other animals, and I don't hear anyone arguing that dolphins save humans from sharks because Dolphin-Jesus said to. I think empathy is just a part of being a social animal. Social animals couldn't be social animals without empathy. What do you think?
@@transhumean My point is that on secular principles, empathy is a meaningless category. If we are simply biochemical machines with no soul and no real freedom to make choices, then we have no way of assessing whether a given choice (say to kick someone in the ribs) is good or bad. Would you ever think of your car or your smartfone as something with empathy?
@@cornopeanus Are you asserting that religious folks share a universally consistent perspective concerning morality?
You seem to be making some assumptions about the secular perspective that I am not sure I share. And I'm wondering whether you got these assumptions by listening to secularists or whether you got them from a Christian apologist.
We do this thing, all of us, where we let Rachel Maddow tell us what conservatives think. We shouldn't. Or we let Tucker tell us what liberals think. We shouldn't.
I am a former minister. What the apologists say about people like me is incorrect.
Please, keep the conversation going
The most happy and peaceful countries in the world are all countries where people don't care much for religion. Regards from Scandinavia.
Can I observe that the absence of life stress or mental stress isn't happiness. And the absence of mental stress in the Scandinvaian countries is down to their compressed income structures. In the US income structures are widely divergent and create horrible mental stresses for those at the bottom of the pile. This exists in many other countries but the US is unique. In that country you are taught that effort means reward. In short, if you are poor it's your own fault. The irony is those at the bottom are more religious.
Not playing the devils advocate but North Korea doesn't have god or religion.
@@Kevin-cy2dr well there are always exceptions. But usually it is like this. If one is happy and educated then they don't need a God in there life. But is your life filled with pain and in poverty then a God can help you. You know like psychologically. The point is that while a God can help you mentally, it doesn't make societies better, and people en general more happy.
@Черногорский истребитель Yes we do need science to tell us who is happy otherwise we are just making stuff up. Religion has been the cause of much war and trauma which goes against your hypothesis.
@@zapkvr did you notice that most of the Conservatives in america that want to keep the unequal economic model are infact devout Christians?
Let me get William Lane Craig's argument straight:
Giving yourself meaning and purpose = delusional
Being used for the purpose of making God happy = good
Got it.
God has some serious issues
Best to ignore these kind of people,cause themselves are ignorant enough. I don't say it cause he's religious but if he don't give a crap of how athiest actually feels,think and what they actually is(not some evil,anti moral shit) then it's not worth your time seeing more of what he have to say.
no that's not it
Craig's argument is more like
Giving yourself meaning and purpose = delusional
Giving yourself meaning and purpose for believing in a god without proving at any point he exist = not delusional
i can only speak for myself, pls dont lump me in with the others.
in the commandments there is 1 commandment that says "treat another with love/as yourself" (depending on the version but the message remains the same).
if these christians you speak of call someone delusional or judge someone by their belief then they are hypocrites purely because of that commandment.
being a christian means that you dont judge, that you dont try to think ill of ppl, understanding that every1 has a bad moment or a bad part in their life and acting accordingly in their best interest.
its a very personal choice, and accepting God is the best thing that happened for me, but im not going to brown-nose other ppl or browbeat them, absolutely not, every1 has a right to make their own choice, to choose what they believe in and i respect the hell out of that.
myself i am a christian, but i dont consider myself religious.
i consider myself faithful, because religion is organized, but faith is completely personal.
turned into a small rant this, have a good day everyone.
Lmao 🤣
I think in the biz we call this “projecting.”
As well as strawmaning in an attempt at controlled opposition (or even hypersition of their false myths/placebos).
Yaw, while it is true that some atheist experience emotional distress when they deconverting, much of the time this is because they were told that they would not have meaning as an atheist, not that they actually can’t have meaning
The absurd argument is that you can't have a meaningful life without superstition imposing that meaning?... I mean really, why does anyone take this seriously? I'm doing fine without an irrational fear of a vengeful/loving mythical being
A lot of arguments say more about the speaker than the subject. Somebody who makes this argument can find no meaning in their work, their family, their hobbies, or anything except their faith. And that kind of empty life is sad to think about.
Scarier to me is the often closely following one, "Without God there is no morality." Because THAT means they see no value in being a good person or having positive relationships, and they see no threat in worldly punishment. The only thing holding them back is the flimsy threat of Hell, and if they were to fall or suffer a crisis of faith then what is to protect those around them?
As an atheist “suffering” with depression I have been told many times that it is due to my lack of belief in god. However as an educated woman I have the sense to know better and so I don’t let that phase me.
I have always found it interesting how my religious friends and family would say this to me but are pleasant and caring to our religious friends who are suffering the same if not worse than me. I’m doing fine and my atheist (immediate) family are caring and warm to me, so I have support.
Considering that they preach love and tolerance etc I am always amazed at their hypocrisy.
lack of dopamine is generally the issue. Or balancing it out in the brain. Testosterone levels and estrogen low = depression. Diet change to counter this issue. Look up exotic foods that allow this slow change over time. Pills tend to be to much to soon.
I was literally just as depressed as a Christian too
@@metamatrixclub1186 certain hormones can also be too high if you catch my drift 🤪
WLC is like saying: "How can you enjoy the meal you chose when no one told you objectivly what to eat?"
Yep. It's the same issue with morality.
"How can you, a social and empathetic being, prefer not causing harm and having no harm caused to you if no one is telling you objectively what to do?"
Yes, I'd say even theists get most of their meaning and happiness from ordinary
everyday things (probably including Craig) not from thinking whats going to happen to them when they die.
How can you enjoy a meal if you are only going to poop it out in 24 hours. Theists have some of the most asinine reasoning around.
@@cy-one This is hte big one I see a lot. Like, I am perfectly happy not running out to murder people on hte daily, not becuase I'm scared some God is gonna punish me; hell I'm not even scared the police or other people are going to punish me. I just dont like hurting people. If I really feel a need to hurt someone, I play games or write a story, because I dont like hurting people, even when I feel like they deserve it. Some folks? Sure I'd kill a few specific people due to the harm they cuase others. But that's based on my own sense of morality, and when I believe that it's necessary to put aside my distaste for harm in order ot prevent greater harm. But that's another discussion.
Seriously, how fucking sad of a person do you have to be to think "wow, if God didn't tell me not to, how could I ever stop myself from hurting people?"
@@Luinta Well, pretty sad tbh. Consider they genuinely believe they're "broken" and deserve eternal torture if they "can't make it up" to God. Which is also impossible, because "no one is without sin." So the only thing they can do in their perception is just _believe extra-hard_ so God be merciful and ignore all their sins, letting them into heaven anyway.
Which of course would be impossible in the first place, because mercy is by definition contradictory to justice... So to let them into heaven despite their sins, God would need to act unjust... But God is defined as just. But also merciful... which contradicts itself...
And round and round it goes until the mind is completely mush.
When they say without god there is no purpose, I can’t help but to think about all the people who’s purpose was to be enslaved, raped, terminally ill, etc. they love to talk about god given purpose until it comes to people who according to them were destined to live severely painful lives and die horrible deaths. They are so self centered and closed minded. It’s so sad.
Thats basically everyone imo. Take financially successful people for instance; they will claim their efforts made them rich but ignore all the millions that try the same thing and suffer. Humans seem to really like being able to have their god, their money, their way, and ignore or worse shame others.
I mean, that argument only works if you assume purpose means that your actions or things that happen to you are predetermined. When people talk about purpose in the context of religion, they usually mean something they can reference to give their life structure and meaning.
That’s one of the main reasons why I left faith. What God can approve this world, if he is on our side? And if he isn’t, then what’s the purpose in worshiping him?
@@r.m.5548 idk I have a life that is definitely not the worst (I think I qualify as lower middle class) and the only time I've ever had issue is when someone implied that I'm somehow bad for having a non-horrible life. I have never considered that any group of people have brought their lives upon themselves (though I will admit that I was never so deluded to think that I'm in any form a good person when I wouldn't trade my place with someone less fortunate. I help, but at no expense to my meager comforts)
@@madeleinedarnoco5190 He doesn’t approve of this world. I really wish atheists would learn about Christianity and the Bible prior to debating (I have the same wish for Christians btw). God also does not promise happiness and fulfillment in this world. Fulfillment is reached as it is by everyone, doing those things which have meaning for you.
This whole reasoning just sounds like a miserable toxic relationship. "You NEED me to be happy! If you don't stay with me you'll be unhappy forever! There is no happy life outside of our relationship!"
"Now worship me!"
Bru use your brain. Human understanding is scarcely limited in comparison to Gods understanding.
Meaning: if you do what you yourself think is good and disregard the word of God then you are like a 5 year old crying ”unfair unfair” when their dad wont allow them chocolate for dinner..
We do need objective scripture and Higher ways because if we let ourselfes be run by our short term desires then we find ourselfes on paths towards destruction.
@@BlurpGooDiJabba If God wants to be understood differently, then he should act differently. The way he presents himself to us (or let's himself be presented to us) doesn't really make him seem like a good being.
@@Nexils well thats your personal experience. There is a time for those who have been called according to his will. Its all predetermined.
Not everyone is meant to go to heaven or believe, we all serve different purposes in glorifying him. Some glorify him throught receiving his wrath and other by receiving mercy in abundance.
My personal experience is that i was an antitheist at some point but i slowly after reading many books changed my mind towards the idea gradually. Education and a open mind is the key to finding God.
If you watch absolute abominations such as this channel on youtube, you are just reinforcing your own preconceived notions. Its not going to lead you to a correct understanding of the truth. This is cirkle jerking.
As a person who was raised without the concept of God even being mentioned in my home, I never thought about any of this until I was much older.
When I got older and spoke with people who believed in God, it blew my mind! But I also blew their minds. They wondered how i came to live by 9 of the 10 commandments (I dont follow number one, to believe in the one God) and asked if I felt frightened since I had no God to look after me.
I developed a moral code by myself based on what made sense; dont steal, cheat, lie, covet others' things and, above all, try not to harm others. I have never felt the presence of a higher power, and have not felt the lack. I do not feel hopeless. I feel my life has meaning; I work to help others and it brings me great satisfaction. I am not afraid to die bc it never occurred to me that eternal punishment was even an option. It never occurred to me that I had a soul so I have no questions about what happens to me (or my soul) after death; I figured I'd disintegrate like other dead animals.
Being an atheist wasnt a choice for me. I just am. I've studied Islam, Judeism, Christianity and Catholicism with imams, rabbis, priests, pastors and JWs, so I know the scriptures better than many. They are interesting and help explain a lot of history and human behavior, but they dont inspire a need for God in me.
In the end the reason the biblical moral code was written that way, was because it's what made sense to the humans who wrote it, because it's the same conclusion most humans come to when they see the world through the lens of social instincts. I suppose it must be shocking if you believe these ideas only exist because of a book... and find, nope... happens naturally.
Even if atheists were woefully unhappy due to their atheism, this says nothing about whether or not it's true
Good point.
Also, neither Christianity nor any other of the three book religions has such an awesome track record at making people feel happy. Superior to others, maybe, but then a truly happy person won't need that feeling of superiority IMO).
I don't even think that says much about these religions. I'm afraid believers form their religion much more than the other way around; homophobic, misogynistic believers will turn any religion into a homophobic, misogynistic mess.
Also, the survey didn't take faith or non-faith into account. It was basically "are you happy with your life?" which has nothing to do with an atheist's non-belief.
@@mischarowe "How can I be happy when a god is torturing and killing little babies?"
@@ProjectExMachina Ikr?
Also, a lack of happiness in an atheist's life wouldn't necessarily indicate that it is their lack of religious beliefs that torments them - rather, the way more likely scenario is that they were unhappy due to the way their family or society in general treats their atheism. Atheists being unhappy would say more about society in general than it would about what one should or should not believe.
WLC demonstrating how being a Christian is like being in an abusive relationship. "You leave me and you'll be sorry, miserable, and unhappy." "Without me your life is meaningless."
"You're perfect, yes it's true. But without me, you are only you" - Mike Patton
Just not true , many atheists (obviously) think that's the case , but it's not at all, in fact, just the opposite, it's the last thing on their mind. (For most Christians) I'm one and I don't think like that in the least, THE LEAST !
You disbelieve your mechanic and you put water in your car's engine............ your journey will become miserable and unhappy.
@@anthonyvega2785 could you be more specific? What's "not true"? What do "many atheists (obviously) think [is] the case"? (I'll skip asking about the opposite, since hopefully you answering the earlier questions will clear that up...) And what don't you think like?
@@anthonyvega2785 Oh but it is. Christianity shows all the signs of an abusive relationship. Typical signs you're in an abusive relationship - 1. Your partner tries to control your behaviour. 2. Your partner threatens to harm you or people you love (believe in me or burn in hell). 3. You're scared of your partner (fear of god).
Things you might feel in an abusive relationship. 1. 'My partner isn’t violent all the time - they love me'.(God loves me and won't send me to hell as long as I keep believing and worshipping him) 2. 'Maybe it's my fault' (I'm an unworthy sinner). 3. 'I'm scared of what will happen if I leave them'. (hell - again).
God’s final message to his creation: “We apologize for the inconvenience.”
@@skyeblu817 It’s a Douglas Adams reference. Chill.
We?!
Well shit that would be concerning lol
What version did you read? I heard it was just a dial-up tone.
Douglas Adams is the best!!!!!!
Other than falling out with almost everyone I knew, I had almost the opposite experience when I left Christianity. I had never felt more happy and free and powerful. I was finally able to choose my own path and define my own life and happiness. The benefit to my situation though was that I was living abroad at the time. I know if I was still at home though I would never have the courage or strength to leave my faith for fear of retribution.
" What's the purpose of afterlife if there is no after-afterlife?"
-Darkmatter.
A man of culture I see
Reminds me of "The Good Place"
@@charlesevilguy6886 love that show it's hilarious.
Shut up Jeffrey
Lolololololol
I haven't deconstructed yet and I'm going through a wide range of emotions over leaving Christianity (former Mormon). I'm actually identifying what I need to change in order to be truly happy (I came out as queer at the same time I told people I left Christianity about a month ago). What I can tell you is that since telling the people at church not to contact me anymore and coming out, I had an unexpected result. Sundays became a day of rest for me rather than a day of heaviness and guilt. Every Sunday since that day, I've had glorious rest and relaxation and happiness for the first time in my 46 years. The inner argument is over; I made my choice, and I'm pleased and relieved with what's left. I never thought I'd find myself here, but I don't want to take back the change. Leaving Christianity is the biggest step I've taken that has led me in a happier direction. Theists don't get to define happiness as something only they can experience. That's absurd and myopic!
Also, thank you for the resource. I didn't have anybody I could trust. Everybody seems to want to ciphon people like me into other religions or make money off of us.
Aww, that's so great! We're glad to see you made it outta there in one piece and stayed strong. Life controlling and monitoring cults are no fun at all 👌
Congratulations, I have experienced something very similar to you, a lot of people here have a well, you are not alone.
I had a very similar experience to you except I grew up Southern Baptist and came out as lesbian to my father who is a pastor. For me deconverting meant I no longer had to cry every night about the fact that I was gay and going to hell, instead 2 years later I find so much happiness in the fact that I can be who I am and love the gender I want. I always tell my parents this, just because you need a God to feel like your life has meaning does not mean everyone else does. I find overwhelming joy in striving for my goals and becoming a better person who is empathetic and available to the people I love. I find meaning in helping others and making sure their life is full of happiness. I find meaning in the simple and the experiences I have. There is only one life, and my happiness comes from making the most out of my time on this beautiful earth I get to call home for a very short amount of time.
Authenticity is amazing! Congratulations on beginning your journey into your true self. I hope that you are well and happy. I was 48 when I realized I was no longer afraid of God and then I realized that was because I didn't believe in a god any more. Aren't Sundays great! Theists can and will say all sorts of things but we can leave them to stew in their miserable juices. How great is that
"Live consistently!" Craig says, while extolling a worldview no one has ever consistently applied to their own life.
Are you saying you know every Christian in the world?
@@offgridvr8716 Can you offer a counter-example?
@@starblaiz1986 you made the claim. Can you account for the lives of every Christian in the world that they don’t live consistently?
Actually if we mean consistently good, the only person who lived a consistently good life was Jesus. Everyone else has fallen short.
That’s a brilliant observation.
@@offgridvr8716 Can you account for the life of Jesus outside of the Bible?
This video made me reflect with deep gratitude, on growing up in the northeast. While raised Catholic I left the church at 18. I had Jewish, Vaishnavi(spelling?), Protestant, and Muslim friends, neighbors and classmates. My casually open lack of religious affiliation, hadn't ever had any effect, good or bad on my job, friends, place on sports teams etc. I witnessed a very different dynamic while attending the University of Wisconsin. I remember the first time I witnessed an argument between a student and Professor regarding the relevance of the Bible in a science class. Later I interned with a mental health center. After an incident in which another intern had told a caller struggling with questions about their sexual identity that having sex with other men was "evil, and prayer could cure Gay-lust" (I'll never forget that note from the call, they literally hyphenated it!!!) I was gobsmacked and there were many more. It's still alarming to hear what people go through in other areas, at the hands of those who also identify as Christian. It would take profound courage, to be known as openly atheist in a mono-faith community.
It’s insulting that Craig insinuates that what I feel when gazing at my sleeping children isn’t real. I don’t need a god to feel a sense of parental purpose and find meaning in the shining smiles of my boys.
What a typically arrogant Christian thing to say…I’m so tired of these people trying to ruin everything and replace it with their own disaster
i get what you mean but "gazing at my sleeping children" is a very weird phrase
also deadass we need more atheist parents in the world good on you
@@emilygordbort7300 why is it weird? When I check on them at night before I go to bed, I can reflect on how shitty my childhood was and I see how much better theirs is in the peacefulness of their rest? Why is that weird?
I dont think he made that lecture about you specifically dude
@@Ender7j oh it isn't weird to do it, it just gives me santa claus vibes when phrased the exact way you phrased it
@@WhaleManMan you can feel insulted even when not directly addressed. If a Frenchman called Americans cowardly, most Americans would take offense to that. If a feminist called all men misogynistic pigs, most men might take issue with that. The degree of insult is a personal decision, but a decision nonetheless and I don’t care to be insulted by a guy who believes in space wizards, demons and miracle cures.
They should try playing Nier Automata
THIS CANNOT CONTINUE THIS CANNOT CONTINUE
2b, or not 2b, that is the question.
This game actually made me question life and existence and played a big part into making me an atheist.
Or Xenogears or 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. Along with NieR Automata, these three games have my favorite stories and they all deal with existentialism. Xenogears takes it a step further and just straight up mocks western religion. Brilliant games all around
Become as gods
Bank: your account balance is $0.00
Apologists: If I had no money, I couldn't afford food, rent, or healthcare. Such a life would be terrible and unlivable. Therefore, I believe I do have money
That's probably the most accurate description of the "Blab It and Grab It" prosperity gospel I've ever read. And, because they do 'believe they have money', despite the actual evidence telling them that they're, in fact, broke, they write bouncing checks to their favorite charlatans, er, I mean, televangelists, as an act of non-evidenced "faith". After all, they'll be the first to say: "Faith without works is dead." (James 2:17,20,26) They're also the same ones who try to claim that Hebrews 11:1 states that "faith" is based upon evidence, when the text actually says that "faith" is nothing more than a blind "assurance".
Theism: rationalize believing what you wish to exist.
Healthcare? But prayer.
@@stylis666 Atheism: being too stupid to understand what actually exists.
@@grantgooch5834 I don't believe he misused the word?
Hey Drew, I just want to take a moment to thank you. Your videos have been part of my very recent progress towards atheism. And after living as a closeted atheist for about 6 months, I finally came out to my closest Christian friends today and it did not go well. I was basically consigned to Hellfire which I get to a degree because, Hell is kind of the Christian way of dealing with the issue of non-belief. But I had hoped my long-term connections with close friends would yield some more subtle responses. Feeling very alone right now. Thank you for all that you do.
If your friends condemn you to hell just because you don't believe in God, you need better friends mate.
I know your comment is six months old, but I hope you've found some peace since then. Your friends have been brainwashed and so they are simply regurgitating the standard responses with which they have been programmed. You didn't ask, but here's a perspective for you to consider: realize that they have your best interests at heart. They truly believe what they are saying and if they didn't care about you, they wouldn't bother trying to convince you. So their actions, while misguided, are an act of love-feel the honor in that even as you smile and move on. You don't need to debate them or even offer any explanations. Just thank them for their concern and ask them if they're still willing to be your friend despite your different views. If they are, then politely explain that you want your friendship to be based on love, acceptance, and commonalities instead of judgment and differences. If they're not willing to have a relationship on those terms, then hug them and tell them that you'll always value your time together and that you will always wish the best for them. Then hit up some people like me who will accept you for who you are, even if we disagree about important things.
2 years on; hope you're well.
"We have nothing to lose and eternity to gain" - what a bullsh*t. I lost all my mental stability being a religious person, worring about every single thought of mine and wondering how can I explain it during confession so I won't be burning in hell... I developed a religious themed ocd and felt like im trapped in some awful little cage, like I have to repress every "bad" thought and even impulse in order to be cristal clear and safe.
Don't forget that there are numerous religions out there. Putting all your eggs in one basket only to be met with a different god, well, that would kinda suck.
Religion is about control. And they use fear and guilt to control you. Remember that these religions were created by ancient, controlling, bullying Barbarians. ‘You’re born a sinner because of original sin, even though it wasn’t you that committed it.’ ‘You will burn in hell if you don’t obey this impossible set of rules.’ Yup. Guilt and fear.
@@xXSamir44Xx - yep. Craig's argument was a *false dichotomy,* just like Pascal's wager is a false dichotomy.
@@pauligrossinoz That argument is Pascal's wager.
The study mentioned in the video also shows that atheists have a higher level of psychological flourishing, so believers have to sacrifice flourishing psychologically for their faith so even this study shows there is something to lose
I was a devout Christian until 22 and recently came out to my family. It’s been hard, but your videos help to keep me grounded. I wrote you in my gratitude journal tonight!
Good luck
I've noticed that Christians often say that it gives life meaning but they never say what that meaning is, aside from serving God, which doesn't seen all that meaningful to me.
Hi. Yes, it just kicks the can down the road a bit...
Right. If my purpose (from an Evangelical perspective) is to try to protect people from the God I believe in (if they're not converted they'll go to hell) then that is a very sad purpose indeed.
Their ultimate meaning is simply believing in Jesus as a prerequisite for the next life, which is the one that really matters. Ironically, this renders their current life essentially meaningless. Craig says that a world filled with absurdity and suffering is pointless without God, but if you have God, that only means you can hand-wave away the absurdity and suffering in the world, because you only have to care about getting to the next world. Where's the consistency in that??
They also seem to all have this condition where they can't come up with goals and reasons to live for themselves, which is somewhat odd. If somebody else can do it, then logically you should be able to do it yourself.
I was just thinking the same thing, also why do they why we have purpose, you asked what is purpose, but no one is asking how is purpose ☹️
11:50 When I became an athiest it was with a sense of wonder, suddenly realizing nothing was there. My faith was all connected together, a cohesive, coherent whole. If you had asked me 5 minutes before my epiphany, I would have vehemently supported my faith. It was such a drastic change I sat and meditated in fascination about its loss. It took me months to tell my family, and that was hard. They did an intervention, but I was stoic. My pastor met with me once, and never tried again. My church family turned their back on me, never reaching out to me again. So I lost that totally. Given it went away so quickly and completely, it was pretty shallow.
I value life so much. My happiness is actually higher than when I believed. My purpose is to live a good life, while I can.
For me (a gay men) life actually became "livable" after I left Christianity.
I see the dog
Right on, my friend. The compassion and empathy I have felt from my gay brothers and sisters is something I have realized since grade school.
As my friend Mark Renton told me,
"Sex is about aesthetics and has f*** all to do with morality."
As far as I am concerned being different in such a way can help you be a better person overall.
Well that is generally the case obviously
Same. I'm still living in a Christian home but I'm a lesbian and ever since I secretly left religion, I have been happier with myself and with my life in general.
@@katie-mz6si well you still believe in God?
There is clearly a difference of difficulty between the U.S. and Europe in being an atheist. If you said "atheists are miserable" in Europe, people would be wondering what the hell you are talking about.
If atheists were miserable, then the Nordic countries would be doing horrible. But being the most non-religious of the west they are doing fantastic!
@@Lessk69 i'm Norwegian. It's mostly old people who are still extremely religious. Most young people are confused on what to believe and not to believe
Same in the US, outside of a few smug religionists who only say this absurd thing so they can give each other virtual high-fives.
@@Nai_101 I don't think most of us are confused. Even the old religious people I know aren't the judgemental type one sees in the US or middle east, and tend to be the "god is whoever you want him to be" type. Our society has progressed beyond the need to use religion as an emotional crutch.
@@jayrobinson24 Right, that's why I was listing to this channel run by a smug atheist and read the comments made by other smug atheists. I wanted those virtual high-fives. But from who? You guys are the only people who know I am here. Oh by the way, sorry I don't agree at all with the fellow who said atheists are miserable. So I guess you weren't even talking about people like me. I don't know where he's getting his theology from. I mean Paul points out there's pleasure in sin for a season. He also said there are some who God will give over to a strong delusion and they will believe a lie and be damned. So I agree with you guys. Atheists can totally be happy, God said so too.
Atheist: "Hm this tea is cold I am going warm it up"
Craig: "Aha! so you do believe in objectively warm tea"
Oma Desala: "If you immediately know the candlelight is fire, the tea was heated a long time ago."
atheist: "my tea is getting cold, i shall warm it"
craig: "what's the point?"
atheist: "well, er, to enjoy it." duh.
@@HarryNicNicholas Edit: Craig: it's impossible to enjoy it without believing in an objective warmth for tea given to us by the Objective Tea Warmer. Ah sure you might think you are enjoying it but you're just deceived.
The concept of everyone living in there own reality kinda breaks the argument. If you didn't know how i made things and i could predict every action you will make then i would be seen as a god from your view point.
Rewarming a cup of tea?
*British people collectively shudder at the thought*
I remember once in my teens when me and a friend saw a plane leaving a huge vapor trail in the sky. The sun was hitting it just right and leaving it coloured like a rainbow, like a rainbow coloured slash in the sky. It was so beautiful!
As we were looking at it, I said: "it is just amazing that light travelled millions of kilometers, entered the atmosphere at the right angle and hit all those tiny particles, just to scatter itself into this colourful spectrum, photons of which arrived at our eyes and made us see all that"
To which she said: "why did you need to remove the magic from this moment?"
We are still friends today (more than 10 years have passed), and I always bring this exchange up. I was (and still am) so amazed by this, because for me (raised as an atheist) the "magic" and amazement came mainly from the knowledge of all these details and intricacies that created that moment. No God, fairy or magic was needed for me to experience the sheer awe of that beautiful vision, but the scientific facts behind it made all the experience even more astonishing.
Some people just need their reality to be fantastic (as in derived from fantasy).
(Sorry for my English, cheers from Brazil)
This is really well written, no worries
Aww love that, same feeling over here I love the knowledge of it
I understand what you say, but sometimes you just gotta forget everything scientific, religious, and just enjoy the beauty of life and the world!
I can't believe Craig is taken seriously by anybody. I can't believe the other skeptic, Cosmic, seems to respect him.
0:10 basically says, "If reality was this way, then we'd be unable to handle the implications, therefore reality is not this way."
Craig, you cannot change reality through sheer inability to cope with it.
Wise words said by Alkis...
@alkis
WRT "...you cannot change reality through sheer inability to cope with it..."
agreed, but this: humans do exhibit a strange tendency to compensate by creating elaborate narratives to explain things that they factually do not understand. why instead they do not simply attempt to engage that which terrifies them, seems sort of an evolutionary defect.
Tbh I feel sorry for Craig, if his words are his real thought
“What do you want a meaning for? Life is a desire, not a meaning.”
- Charlie Chaplin
C Chaplin is a clown not a philosopher
@@junacebedo888 and that makes what difference?
@@junacebedo888 For me he seems like a wise men, who doesnt take himself to seriously. And this is wisdom!
Sounds like he's a Christian out if fear that he won't have a purpose, this is a huge waste of words to say he believes because it's a comfort blanket.
mostly it's a scam
WLC has built his career on wasting words!
Yes, he argues for the position that belief in his God is useful, be His existence a valid truth or a useful lie...
If you can’t prove it’s true, move onto the next point. But, yes, he’s too morally weak to accept that he’s probably wrong.
He's stated he believes because he's personally experienced God, so no. Your opinion is worthless and irrelevant.
I was talking to one of my coworkers and shes an orthodox christian. One night she said to me "im so happy i have my religion, because otherwise id have no idea what to believe in" and that really hit me.
Like "wow, shes genuinely terrified that her life might have no meaning. She's devoted her entire life to this faith that she doesn't know how to live for herself" i honestly sympathize for everyone who grew up in a strict religious household, because they've had to do exactly what their faith says and nothing else, you're never allowed to make your own opinions on anything using your own intelligence and logic. Its really tragic
I personally feel that because of things like this, some religious people have a sort of placebo effect, of feeling they have the answers and can do more, when theres no conclusive evidence for their case, but theyve proved it to themselves
Yep one of the biggest sells for religion is that it allows people to avoid thinking about difficult and unpleasant subjects.
When you’re in the Matrix in a priveleged position, taking the blue pill feels good.
Just think of thought addictions like compulsive gambling. The Theist defies logic for a postmortem reward.
All praise the Holy Dopamine Ghost!
They more often than not, from what I can tell, confuse the voice of their conscience for the voice of their god.
There's far more than conclusive evidence for the case of Christianity; Found in the resurrection of Christ (historicslly documented by impartial sources and the Bible (which is a historical document,)) the many revelations of Christ and our Holy Mother Mary, with miracles upon miracles. The groundwork is laid out - both the intellectual and the theological one. What's left is for you to take the step and have faith in Christ or if you will live by your own rules in this life and then perish. The choice is simple
Well, i think this is an implicit acknowledgement of what we atheists claim: humans create God, not the other way around. Believers NEED God to give their lives a purpose. They don't say "we believe in God because there's evidence". They say "we believe in God because otherwise life would make no sense". Exactly! The next step would be becoming an atheist.
except that believers don't really need god to have a purpose. 99% of the things they do have nothing to do with god. what theists really mean when they talk about the meaning of life is the after-life.
they don't really believe in god, they just sort of hope there is a god. why else would they wear seatbelts? or call the fire department? or get medical treatment? death that is not suicide should according to them, get them into heaven, but how come they reject that easy path? it's because deep down, they know there is nothing after, and so they cling to this life.
Wearing a seatbelt doesn’t mean u just hope there is a god . Unless u have a death wish people fight to extend their life it has nothing to do with god. Does that mean no atheist wear belts ? Does that load is shit come with a garden hose to wash off said shit ?
@@vikinghawk3358 If you really believe in a heavenly paradise why would you fight to extend life? In fact, Christianity was an originally a death cult preparing for the end times. Paul told people not to marry because the end was imminent.
@@vikinghawk3358 the opposite, if you believe in an afterlife, then this life has less value, so you'd fight less to preserve it. Since Atheist in general don't believe in an afterlife, it's only natural that we'd fight to prolong it, thus we will use a seatbelt.
My first thought on Craig's thesis is "wow, a Christian lecturing anyone on consistency, is pretty rich."
An atheist lecturing on consistency is an oxymoron as well
@@bailee7696 atheism isn't a unified religion telling itself it's holy, so it doesn't have to be consistent
@@thereasonbehindchickensacts wow thats your defense ? “It doesn’t have to be consistent “🤣🤣🤣
@@therougesage7466 Atheism is just the rejection of the claim that god exist. Atheists will reject the christian god because of the lack of consistency in the story and dogma, but that doesn't mean that an atheist can't believe in some other crazy story (like aliens for example). Therefore saying that an atheist must be consistent is meaningless as there is no dogma/religion/system/ etc.. in atheism since it's the rejection of a claim. Read more about the burden of proof to understand how logic works in the matter of making claims.
@@Jonathan.T.1000 how dim can you be ? honestly ,
to lack consistency as a properly basic value to carry your word view forward with ,
and without it good luck making any sense
It has been a while since I first started questioning God. It scared me. This same mindset that if there was no God then there was no true happiness persisted in my mind. The only way I could explain it was that I felt like I was drowning, and there was nothing to pull me out. With this channel, I am realizing that this mindset is false, and that I can overcome it. It won't be easy though.
My Mami is an immigrant from Mexico. She had me later in life, so she is now 56. I remember, one day, she asked me what God had ever done to me. I was born a miracle, she said. I tried to explain my viewpoint, and she slapped me. It's hard, and we haven't really talked about God since then.
I do hope I can get through it. Thanks again, and I apologize for ranting.
"Atheists can't do this!" And then he starts levitating and crying blood as a pentagram appears beneath him.
WJC is perfectly aware that there are thousands of happy atheists. His only "purpose" is to scam the gullible.
Welp, got us there.
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of good stage magicians who can do that.
Id watch that
Bloody tears of joy as his power expands
Being Puerto Rican and recently coming out as atheist, the study you cited is truly helpful and serves of support for the community. Thank you so much for sharing it, Drew! 🇵🇷
🇵🇷
Wait you have to "coming out" as atheist? Holy s, much support for you.
How most Christians explain atheism:
If humans can only breathe air
Then how do fish breathe water?
That's not a good analogy, but I agree in the fact that it shows the nonsense of their statements
@@Rudxain
I think it's a decent analogy
If [Christians] can [have meaning with God]
How can [atheists have meaning without God]
@@MystFox1314 I agree. It kinda is a good analogy. I changed my mind
@RadioAddition lol
Lol
"an atheist can make sense of life just by the pleasure of living it"
That is EXACTLY what I was thinking all the way through this video. I try to live life moment to moment, grateful for each moment that comes my way. I would certainly report myself as a happy person. Why do you need "objective meaning" anyway? Craig's argument is nothing but TAG, which is inherently circular.
When you describe the bad place you were in when you first left Christianity, because of those teachings, it just shows how toxic organized religion can be. When they feel the need to scare people into sticking around and have no qualms about doing so.
I don't know why "organized religion" makes me laugh
Eat your vitamins spongebob, they'll make you raw
I get that a lot of people were burn't by organized religion (believe it or not I was too. I grew up going to a Mormon church until I was, like 10 or so), but how does that translate into a rejection of God? I mean if He is or was ever real, the religious offenders didn't create Him. I mean if they lied to you about who God is, did it occur to you maybe they didn't know who God is either? It seems like people only assume these religious pirates made God up because either they got burnt by them, or they are weary of getting burnt (possibly because they got burnt by something else?) I didn't know God when I stopped going to the mormon church, but at least I knew that IF He existed it was not dependent on mine or anyone else acceptance or interpretation of Him.
@@jonathanbaker4361 A decent god would do something about all the priests and vicious fossils that use its name to excuse every form of abuse imaginable. All that leaving it to fester does is make victims question why he didn't save them, either coming to the conclusion that they did something to deserve it or god is a callous villain.
Either he's made up or is willing to let millions of innocent people think that being violated was part of his grand design.
I could spend hours listing off all of the sins of the abrahamic god but I think that wraps it up quite nicely.
@@jonathanbaker4361 Despite my harshness, i'm genuinely willing to discuss this. I hope you will forgive me for being blunt, I've both experienced religious abuse first-hand and spent a great deal of time and energy trying to console loved ones who've experienced it as well.
this is kind of a personal subject for me and i do not want you to come away from this thinking that I think you're a horrible person for having your own beliefs. My only complaint is against the organized religion, not you as a person.
Existentialists be like: "ive been waiting for this debate my entire life."
Yes we have
Absurdists too
I'm just here for the catering
@@coffinmyface4237 Representing.
@xavi Remo Yeah we are
The "symptoms" you describe regarding your recovery from religion, sound remarkably similar to what a drug addict or drinker might experience when they finally begin to kick the habit !
except society applauds an addict's recovery, whereas skeptics are condemned
Yeah, you gotta go through them religion withdrawals
It's also what people with stockholm syndrome can end up going through after attaching themselves to their captor for a long time.
Or someone leaving an abusive or unhealthily dependant relationship
the day I became atheist I was incredibly relieved tbh, I was actually the most depressed right before that when I was muslim lol. many atheists are still afraid of hell because of their previous beliefs, because they can't disprove its existence. I've always loved reading about different religions, studying theology and learning about how religions came to be was a hobby of mine, so I simply read how hell came to be in islam (youre video about it was almost exactly what I learned at the time). and now, I do good things because it's the right thing to do, not to escape eternal torture lol.
btw, hell in islam is called Jahannam, it was copied directly from gehenna lol
If God does not exist morality is not real and life is without purpose? Well that's a depressing outlook on life.
I find the world to be beautiful and the people in it are- mostly- not mediocre and that's enough for me IG.
They sure do like making things up in their head.
And they call us the pessimists? 🤔
"Sartre is really saying 'Let's pretend the universe has meaning'" - Oddly enough, that's exactly what theists do... at least as far as I can tell.
One word in there.... _Pretend._ Says it all.
Then you clearly can’t tell much, humanity develops metaphysical beliefs in all places in all times and will for all times, if your born into a spiritual worldview pretending isn’t required
@@admiralkipper4540 True, but in a world where information is available to more and more people, which also means that facts, information and answers to about any question that _can_ be answered is available in your very pocket, makes ignorance more and more a rather forced necessity, than a natural excuse.
What I mean by that is fairly simple; If I can look up, or search for _any_ verse in the Bible or Qur'an at any time, or get myself a briefly educated on Thomas Aquinas in 5-15 minutes on-the-fly, I seriously should expect to hear from religious people who denies evolution flat, that they actually _knew,_ or had some brief knowledge about what they're denying. If they're discussing the bible, I _should_ expect they knew the book better, but they usually don't. _Pretending it's true, pretending it's perfect, pretending knowledge._
@@ingebygstad9667 my comment points out only that a genuinely held belief is not someone pretending to know something, they believe it to be true regardless of whatever anyone else may say
@@admiralkipper4540 - Interesting that these metaphysical beliefs humans come up with have been different around the world, as if everyone is making up their own and there isn't one true set of beliefs... just the same need for answers and the same readiness to invent them.
You can see it in the way these beliefs develop. Beginning with the idea of sympathetic magic, that depictions of successful hunts on a wall can encourage success in real life hunts. Then people invented spirits to inhabit all the aspects of the world to explain how things move and grow. Some of those spirits were believed to be human ancestors who hang around to guide or disapprove of their descendants.
Eventually someone came up with the idea of gods and it caught on with tribes around the world inventing their own. The Hebrews had a few in their pantheon up until three thousand years ago, when they got the idea of having just one god from the Egyptians who had attempted to simplify and centre their beliefs around Ra, and later Horus.
Yahweh's solo career was more successful than either of the Egyptian gods... but then there arose the problem of why a supreme being would allow evil and suffering in the world. Fortunately contact with Zoroastrianism provided the answer... an adversary who works to test the supreme being! Thus was Satan invented.
The Abrahamic religions have gone through many drafts and changes and still do with the various denominations and sects. To believe that any version somehow managed to be true requires pretence and a rigid devotion to remaining ignorant of any facts that demonstrate otherwise.
I'd like to ask Craig this question. "Suppose there is no god but all these people still get their meaning and purpose from the belief in this non existent god. Is that still a good place to get meaning and purpose?"
I'd like to ask him: "Do you know what an Argumentum ad Consequentiam is?"
Unfortunately he wouldn't be able to process the question. That's the thing with arguing with a theist as an atheist, you have such a different world view that the most basic of communication becomes near impossible.
@@Green__one I think you're right about WLC. He's not able to entertain the idea people think differently
I'd like to ask him what he thinks of people who find a meaning and purpose to their lives through dedication to a non-Christian religion. Buddhists are not theists, so what does he think of Buddhist monks who actually live immersed in a purpose without God? WLC is one of the most narrow minded people on earth, and what is worse, he is fairly well self-educated and chooses to be narrow minded because of his desperate need to believe. I see him as a tragic and pathetic character. Much like Oedipus, he is a victim of circumstances of his own making.
You don't even need to go that far. The concluding paragraph in his article presents atheism and Biblical Christianity as "the two alternatives". He completely and deliberately ignores not only non-theistic religions and not only theistic religions that believe in other Gods than his, but also religions that believe in the same God as Christianity like Islam and Judaism. You shouldn't bother with atheistic Buddhism, just ask him about Quranic Islam.
I'm actually pretty fascinated by the idea that the absurd and the meaningful cannot coexist. It's my favorite story telling style like "Everything, Everywhere, All at Once". It is both bonkers absurd yet deeply moving and shows how we can still find joy and meaning in that despite everything.
Dr. Craig's argument is one big No True Scotsman fallacy.
Worse, it attempts to bolster the very weak, long-countered Pascal's Wager by applying the No True Scotsman fallacy to only _some_ of its counter-arguments. I'm honestly a bit surprised that he shows his hand at the end by actually mentioning Pascal's Wager.
@@bloodgain Many theists find Pascal's Wager quite compelling. Some years back, I had a Philosophy professor who was convinced Pascal had settled the issue.
Well, there's a heaping helping of Argument From Consequences fallacy as well.
@@SylviusTheMad well if you ignore every other religious claim, focusing and assuming only Christianity is the right one then ofc pascal's wager is a safe bet, yet morally bankrupt but at least you're technically set.
@@mihaimoldo If we were able to decide that Christianity is the true religion, that means we are able to distinguish between a true religion and a false one. But if we could do that, then Pascal's Wager has no purpose, because we can just test each religion in turn to decide if it's true or not, until we find the true one or eliminate all of them as false. Pascal's Wager is used because we don't know Christianity is true, but it sneaks the assumption that it is true under the table. Very bad form.
I would almost qualify that with saying American Christians. Even priests and theologians in Sweden don't seem to hold such a view. It's not that they don't know Christianity. What WLC says is essentially what Christians mean by Good News. Your life isn't meaningless, without purpose, etc. because Jesus.
Educated Christians in Sweden do not hold that view because they live in Sweden. Holding that view in Sweden would be self-contradictory. Not just Sweden, but 1/3 of the world. People just aren't that into religion.
The book Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment was published in the US more than a decade ago and should be the end of it. It's also the thing that annoys me the most with American apologists and theologians, as well as the like of J. Peterson. That is, they pretend nothing outside of the US exists. I have much less issue with the likes of the Westboro Baptist Church. Nothing odd about this. E.g., it much easier to deal with racists who are honest about their racism than racists who try to confuse and obfuscate the issue with things like "race realism."
Let me tell you one thing about Sweden, as it is where I am. "The meaning of life" is not generally seen as a metaphysical question here, but rather a mundane question that demands a matter-of-fact answer. Religion is a deeply personal issue here, one which you don't talk about. Like one's sex life. If religion is personal, why wouldn't the meaning of life be? People here find meaning and purpose in friends and family and everything they can and do. Egalitarianism is often said to be the religion of Sweden, but I think it's rivaled by leisure.
@isle9 Indeed. WLC only insist on this because it makes him and his fellow Christians feel better about themselves.
And I fixed typos. This is what I mean by priests here not believing in the "Christian message": th-cam.com/video/W-kANR1vJkM/w-d-xo.html
It's from the The Norden - Religion. It's time stamped. They are Danish priests, but close enough.
This is really interesting, and thanks for the link!
Weirdly enough, I never quite realized that religious belief _is_ a personal, near private thing until I saw people go on and on and bloody on about it on US tv, and in the most annoying way possible: either rattling down unfounded claims ("atheists can't be moral because you need religious believes for that" ???!*censored*!! ) or blissfully ignoring science ("nobody was there to witness it" ), or repeating the same speech for ten years.
Religious believes are something to be talked about with close friends or family members, not marketed on tv.
I have this vague impression that that Scandinavians as a whole are more connected to nature, and at the same time more self-reliant. A bit of a "winter is coming" mind set, if you'll forgive the phrase: an awareness that there are very real forces of nature and if you get snowed in without fire wood, fuel or food, no deity is going to miracle you out of it.
Sorry, I'm aware that might be mostly a fantasy of mine, but at least I can promise you that I had it in place before I watched Game of Thrones ;)
As someone who was born and raised as an atheist, it’s so odd to hear things like “god given purpose”.
It’s such an alien concept to me that people thinking it’s required to be happy is sort of hilarious to hear every time I hear it.
I feel for people that had to revamp their worldview when exiting their faith just to feel like they could be happy. It really is just a different way of consuming your experience that is life.
i was also born and raised as an atheist, i fell lucky that i was born and raised as an atheist because it gives me an objective view of things, my parents simply didn't tell me about religion until i found out and asked them myself, which allowed me to have my own personal view on religion (which my parents encouraged) and it helps me discredit arguments from both sides (yes, certain arguments from atheists were made poorly and can be disproven, although literally every argument made by theists is easily disproven).
it's weird that i have barley seen other born and raised atheists.
Is a dog inconsistent in being happy chasing it's tail when it has no concept of a god?
Mu.
A dog has no consciousness with which to know itself, but if it did it would probably need to parse some meaning in reality
@@admiralkipper4540 u sayin a dog is stupid
@@crazyfriend50 yep
@@admiralkipper4540 no gods exist
For me, I had the whole meaninglessness trauma when I was 10 years old, it was shortly after my parent's divorce and I had lots of trouble sleeping. Overall I had become a more depressed person, and constantly worried about what happens after death. It was around then that I was questioning Christianity and eventually came to the conclusion that it's not something I believe in. Since then I've become much happier and matured a lot because of this experience, I've come to terms with it all and now I feel like a much happier and complete person.
I went to a similar age of depression when I was 9 staying up late and crying in bed, I'm 14 now and my birthday is in 2 weeks I am in a religious family, we are not Christians we are Sikhs but I THINK I'm hiding in the closet as an atheist... I don't know what to do...
Sorry to hear of your trauma, that sucks. How did becoming depressed over your parents divorce translate into worrying what happens after death?
@@anthrosapien3784 This is a problem that people who offer advice online cannot help you with. If you honestly tell your family the truth - would it end badly - or would they accept your decision for what it is? Would it be wise to keep your new found freedom to yourself - for the sake of peaceful harmony - or would you feel better for no having to hide the truth anymore? At age 14, you're just 4 years from independence - which seems like a very long time when you're 14, but a mere blink of an eye if you're in your 60's (as I happen to be).
Fact is - NOBODY but you can make this call. Only you know your family well enough - and only you can tell how much better you might (or might not) feel about telling the world - versus keeping it quiet for a while longer.
I have to say that I know very little about the Sikh religion - but Wikipedia defines it as:
*_"Any human being who faithfully believes in One Immortal Being; eleven gurus, from Guru Nanak to Guru Granth Sahib; the teachings of the 6 Gurus, 15 bhagats, 11 bhatts, 4 Gursikhs and the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru."_*
Woah - that's a LOT of weird shit to believe in! It's like "Sorry - I think there are only 14 bhagats - so I guess I'm not a Sikh anymore!"
Well, congratulations on at least knowing yourself...clearing your head of a total of 41 mythical/supernatural beings(!!) must be a huge relief!
@@SteveBakerIsHere I'm still not entirely sure if I'm atheist cause in the outside I do feel as though I am a sikh but then again deep down I don't truly believe in it, I'm kinda stuck I don't know if I really am an atheist or not... And it's causing me a lot of stress
@@anthrosapien3784 The "on the inside" part is fairly easy. Just ask yourself: *_"Do I believe that all of this complicated set of gods and prophets and all of these complicated teachings and dress codes are true?"_*
If you don't think that this could all be reasonably true - then, congratulations, you're an "Atheist".
If you're uncertain whether it's all true or not - then you're an "Agnostic".
Only if you're very sure that it's all true (and it looks like you aren't) - would you be described as a religious believer.
Some people would say (rather reasonably, actually) that NOBODY can be 100% certain that there is a god - or that there is not...so TECHNICALLY, everyone is an agnostic.
However, it's more reasonable to say that people have a really hard time believing in all of this stuff - are (in practical terms) "Atheists"...even if they admit to being unable to prove it - and even if they have a small amount of doubt.
I am an atheist (and have pretty much always been one)...but my feeling is this:
There are roughly 4,200 religions in the world - plus one other option...atheism.
Which of those is 4,200 religions is the true one - because whichever it is - the other 4,199 of them clearly aren't!
Your religion is what it is, not because you've gone and looked at all 4,200 rellgions and said "THIS ONE IS RIGHT!!" - no - that's not what happened. You are Sikh ONLY because your parents are. If you'd been born in to a family of Catholics - you'd be a Catholic and you'd never even consider become a Sikh.
So the ONLY reason that your particular religion is the "true" one is because your parents thought so...and the only reason THEY thought so was because your grandparents thought so...it's all an accident of birth.
At no point did any of these people say "Hold on a minute? Maybe my ancestors had it all wrong? Maybe Islaam is true? Maybe the Catholics have it right? What about the Aghori or the Raelians?
So any logical thinking person (which you clearly are) - should be wondering not just whether there is god or no god - but which of all of these thousands of ways to worship are correct? I mean - if the Islaamists are right - then you're in deep trouble come the after-life!
I think that if there really was a god - then there would be FAR fewer religions in the world - because those who are currently getting it wrong would have been told that in some kind of divine revelation or something.
Since that evidently doesn't happen - I don't think there can be a god.
Wikipedia says __*"Sikhism rejects claims that any particular religious tradition has a monopoly on Absolute Truth."*_
WOW!! I think this is an important (and rather refreshing) idea!
If you *_do_* decide to tell your parents about your feelings (and I'm not saying that you either should - or should not!) - then perhaps that's an important starting point. Ask them about that...see what they say!
If Sikhism rejects the idea that even their own religion has the "Absolute Truth" - then perhaps your parents should accept that you wish to seek this truth in other ways?
(But then they could also get REALLY upset with you and not listen to a single word you say! Only you can guess their reaction.)
"Hey Mom...why are we Sikhs?"
Nibble at the problem around the edges.
Most atheists will say that their view of the world...the universe...what it is to be human...comes from science and mathematics.
But both science and mathematics agree with the Sikh statement about "Absolute Truth" being impossible to attain.
The discoveries of Godel, Heisenburg, Turing, Russell and others are solid, rigorous proof that not everything is knowable - even theoretically.
There will always be mysteries in the universe.
So if you are planning on breaking the news to your parents, perhaps you should come armed with these kinds of thoughts - and make them more questions than outright statements.
While I haven't had the "atheists are miserable" trope thrown my way, I hear variations on the theme quite often. Oddly enough it isn't from where I occasionally worship. Many years ago I became a Quaker. It was a spiritual expression which made the most sense to me. Having grown up going to Catholic schools, I found it refreshing to discover a religion which didn't try to impose its dogma on me. The authoritarianism and its often nonsensical notions (to me) were the main reasons I left the Roman Catholic Church a very long time ago. I had always struggled with faith. Even the idea of believing in evidence unseen didn't sit well with my skeptical nature. While at university, I came to the conclusion that the existence of God, and therefore God Himself was unknowable. Some thirty years ago I joined a 12 Step fellowship to overcome my substance abuse problems. There was a lot of talk of God, but no one imposed their conception of a deity upon me. After several months of struggling with having some sort of faith in a Higher power, I began to believe. And my journey with Quakerism began.
Now I have lived on and off with depression pretty much all my life. I've had major depressive bouts when I wasn't a believer and I've had some when I was a believer. So I can't say whether there is a direct causal relationship. I can say that during the first dozen years or so of my recovery, I did have more success dealing with it. However it is unclear whether that success was due to my belief in some spiritual development or because I was no longer consuming substances which are known depressants.
Unfortunately, I contracted a chronic debilitating illness for which there is no known cure. It isn't fatal. But I'll admit there are times I wish it was. It turned my life upside down and I've had to live with it for nearly thirty years. To say I am weary of this condition would be an understatement. I have learned a great many things during all those years. But my lessons came at a steep cost. And for the last few years, I have slowly lost faith in some "magical" being which could bring me strength and support when needed. So this is where I find myself today. I still attend 12 Step meetings. After 33 years of sobriety, I have seen what can happen when one forgets what active addiction was like and starts imagining one can now safely enjoy that which once nearly proved fatal. Actually my greatest fear is that I would drive while intoxicated and wind up killing someone. So that is the dilemma I struggle with, going to meetings, grateful for that which has helped me stay sober all these years, and yet unable to believe in a God; a God of which I hear people talking on almost a daily basis.
There are two things I have learned which are touched upon in this video. One, it is up to me to create meaning in my life. Whether I do it by serving a Higher purpose or my fellow human beings, or whether I use some other outlet for creative expression which is not centered on a God, it is still my choice and I still have to be an active participant in the creation of that meaning. No handed down purpose will have the same weight or value. For my life to have any true satisfaction for me, I need to take responsibility for it. Otherwise it becomes just a drudge to be endured, imposed upon me by some external agent. And that only leads to resentment and despair.
The other thing is the pursuit of happiness is a mugs game. If I make happiness my goal, it will always elude me. I will always be searching for that person, thing or activity which will make me happy. But, I have found, if I do the best I can to make the world a better place, in however a small way, if I make that my goal, then happiness will turn up as a by-product. That has been borne out in my experience, over and over again.
That fact that your reason for not drinking alcohol and driving is that you fear you might cause harm to another person or persons unknown, means that you are, in my estimation, a basically good person in your core.
From me to you: *Thank you for being that good person who genuinely cares about others!* 😊👍
@@pauligrossinoz Thank you.
Yeah, there are variation of it, for sure and had many thrown at me too. And it's all projection from them. lol Trying to tell me how I feel, hahaha. Constant appeal to emotion fallacies with them.
No gods exist, how do you live with yourself
Christian here, and I just wanted to say I’m sorry that you went through such a difficult time! Fear definitely ought not be the thing that brings someone to or keeps someone with Jesus. It’s to be God’s kindness both through Jesus and His people. Thank you for sharing such thought-provoking work and encouraging people to seek out truth!
Thank you for demonstrating to me not every religious person is like the one in the video
Wow, that was impressive. One point I found myself saying out loud was “it’s not a choice”. Atheism was not a choice for me. You can’t unsee it and be one of truly faithful.
"you can't unsee it" makes it sound like someone showed off god's dick in church and now you just cant go back to that place
Your life doesn't have meaning because you don't believe in the man in the sky that you have never seen.
Brilliant thinking
dang, needing an imaginary friend to feel value and purpose must be hard.
No thas not the point.
@@kronos01ful elaborate
@@masternerd64 hi!
If a God( a mind outside human mind ) doesn't exist ,life is meaningless.
Because there's no absolute truth.
@@kronos01ful You are putting the cart before the horse here. You must prove objectively that "an absolute truth" exists and such a thing is necessary to derive meaning. People give their lives their own meanings.
it's a bit like taking drugs. The first times it brings you good feelings, then you get addicted and think that you _have_ to take the drug in order to be happy...
I must admit that for me it comes as quite a shock how to so many people leaving christianity can be such a struggle. For me it was like immediate freedom, and I felt nothing like being left out of a community, fear of losing a job, or general lack of purpose in life. It must really come down to how deep christianity is rooted in each society. In some they really make everything they can to make you fearful of leaving.
Craig should start by proving how he knows what goes on in other people's minds.
He doesn’t need to, because obviously everyone thinks like him and anyone who says otherwise is obviously willfully ignorant of god obvious intentions (this is satire, if u couldn’t tell)
@@TooMichThe funny thing you never know what these christians would say. So yeah the satire part, i could tell.
I know most sensible people would get it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody actually took me seriously on that. So better safe then sorry
Source: Trust me bro
@@TooMich oh it was late at night i meant i couldn't really tell. :). But that more on the christians then on the satire
Group hug for Drew and anyone else who struggled when they became an atheist let’s goooo 🤗🤗🤗
Theist : Pointless campaign in the game
Atheist : Awesome sandbox without limitation
So basically old videogame RPGs (I clarify because tabletop RPGs aren't limited to what can happen in the game except by narrative themes)
grinding on a minecraft server for a useless skill vs playing minecraft normaly
My 2nd cousin told me flat out on FB that I was unhappy & miserable for being an atheist.
I told her " thanks for assuming something about life that you know nothing about.
She actually,apologized and said she was miserable until she turned to Jesus.
I said that's fine and all,but that's not how I handle my life.
She later went all crazy Qanon on me and I had to block,her.
'"Let's _pretend_ the universe has meaning." And this is just fooling ourselves.'
Indeed.
Let pretend the universe has no meaning, and we just came to exist by chance.
Why would I pretend that when it is the case?
@@Ckrost Great, that means we get to define our own goals and aren't stuck with what somebody else decided.
@@Ckrost Chance or magic? I'll take the one that makes sense.
@@Llortnerof but of course you’d choose the selfish choice, humans are selfish of course.
I’m Christian but ngl I love all these vids. They’re all so interesting
Happy you've got an open mind.
This is like "Atheist Mythology" to you, right?
@@lautarosilva5272 XD, I just like to understand people’s perspectives on things so I can have conversations that aren’t 1-sided.
@@zaclumley7553 Mad respect
Now here's a Christian I like
“Life is without meaning, value, or purpose to athiests”
Well yes, but actually no
Life itself is kind of meaningless, however we can make our own purposes and values, there is no grand purpose just whatever we put our lives towards and do to better ourselves and humanity. Life isn’t about reaching somewhere. Its not a trial to have a true experience. It is the true experience
This is great! Couldn’t have put it into better words.
It's a matter of perspective. In the grand scheme of things we are just tiny organisms that exist for a super short time and have no significance to the universe itself. From my perspective, the universe is emotionless and we and at least all other social animals add that and much more to the universe. We are the parts of the universe that feel and love and express and experience beauty. Let's see a god try that. Let's see a god fear loss and find consolation.
@@stylis666 Love is an evolutionary trait that basically means that we’re social animals and we want to keep others alive
Yeah. I just feel like theists only believe in god out of fear. They are afraid of the unknown and thus rather believe in some creator who gives their life a purpose then to tackle everything that life throws at them themselves.
Theist are actually the sad ones because they are dependent on something that doesn’t exist. They don’t have a free will. All their actions must align with what god wants.
I as an non believer am free to do what ever I want. I don’t need to follow any imaginary rules I only have to follow the laws of my country. Without having to think about the possibility that I am always judged by some being.
@@gf1006 Yes, so can a god do that? Or fear or mourn death?
I'm a Christian but honestly, I love your channel so much. Thank you for doing what you do and never feel likes it's all for nothing
Wait, if you listen to him all the time, how do justify your beliefs? Don't you take his arguments to a point and think about it?
I've struggled with severe depression my entire life and one of the most helpful changes I have ever made was when I accepted the fact that I am an atheist and stopped trying to force myself to believe in unsubstantiated claims.
Accepting my atheism didn't make me suddenly happy, but it immediately clarified the things I value and desire. My purpose was no longer mired by the purpose that religions told me I should have.
If the existence of human beings is without meaning or purpose for them if God doesn't exist, then God's existence is without purpose or meaning if he too does not have his own God.
Bang. Man down, MAN DOOWWN!
god's purpose is to be worshipped by humans and occasionally kill and torture them. read your bibble.
😀 👍
This is like a weard extension of the argument that if everything needs a creatior (as the theists seem to imply) then who created the creator, and if you figure out who created the creator, then who created the creator creator. Yaknow.
@@TooMich yep, that's what I was going for.
It sounds like Craig is playing the old game of setting the definitions so that he cannot lose. Pathetic, but it pays the bills (handsomely). Also, who says that the Universe requires us to be happy? I am happy, by the way. Without gods. He still has to prove that gods exist. That is the only question.
I like to think of Sisyphus pushing his boulder up the mountain with a smile on his face. Because, why not.
Not having an eternity to look forward to, or dread, means all the time we have is our life on earth. Making something more rare actually makes it more valuable, so if you reduce the amount of time we have, you increase its value. Recognizing the value of your limiting, fleeting moments on this earth can make you appreciate it more, not less.
Unable to know what comes after death or if anything comes after death makes you want to enjoy the human experience more
I'd rephrase that as knowing that nothing comes after death makes you want to enjoy the human experience more. If you are an atheist and a skeptic, you don't believe in any form of afterlife, this isn't a case of "not being able to know"
yeah but it also means that you have to leave the party pretty soon. Nobody likes that idea.
@@Green__one not necessarily all athiest aren't alike we only share one thing in common which is that we don't belive in a deity other then that one can belive in the afterlife without a deity and so on
@@Green__oneHi green1. I am an atheist and a sceptic but I don't "know" what comes after death. I think there is nothing but until I fully understand the nature of consciousness, fundamental physical laws and the nature of time , I don't believe I can "know".
@@martifingers I'll give you the atheist point, however you cannot possibly be a skeptic and believe in an afterlife. Skepticism requires that you reject that which cannot be proven. And as such skepticism firmly rejects an afterlife.
8:20 "Let's pretend the universe has meaning. And this is just fooling ourselves". So you can pretend (as in fully believe) that god exist and it gives you purpose in life but my stuff is crap because there's no baby Jeebus in it? Bruh.
Christians are happy because they believe most people are going to hell for no reason.
Feeling like you’ve lost your whole life (e.g. friends, activities, church connected job, family) when you leave Christianity is by design so that you will feel hopeless and in despair and return.
christianity consists mostly of threatening their believers.
@@scambammer6102 indeed
@@scambammer6102 It's literally the opposite, but hey, whatever lets your atheistic and naive mind sleep at night
@@csongorarpad4670 if you don't believe in christianity you don't get to go to heaven idk if its 100% you go to hell.
@@csongorarpad4670 How are unbelievers treated? Maybe your particular denomination is different - where my family is from unbelievers are... frowned upon.
I was never happy as a Christian.
No matter how hard I tried not to do things I had been taught were sinful, I still sinned. So I constantly felt ashamed of myself.
My time as a member of the church did help me get my life on the road that I wanted it on, but ultimately, it could do nothing for my sense of self worth, or for my overall happiness.
Part of my path toward leaving the church was realising that nobody in my church community was seeking a connection with each other. They only sort connection with God.
When I accepted that I would never have a satisfactory connection with God, and I turned to other people for connection, I was surprised to find that that need was filled almost instantly.
I have never felt more alone than I did as a Christian, in a room full of Christians.
“Objective meaning” and there it is. You think god makes your definition of life’s meaning objective. Until you can prove that a deity exists, and that it is YOURS, your life does not have objective meaning. No one’s does. It is purely subjective. You cannot gain objective meaning from a deity you can’t prove exists. You’re essentially saying, “my subjective god gives me objective meaning.” No, your subjectively chosen IDEA of god has made you feel worth and meaning. And don’t lie, it is subjectively chosen. You didn’t chose it via some objective fact in the belief system. You likely grew up with it, and instead of challenging your beliefs with the fact that you’re possibly the victim of child indoctrination, you double down and dig in your heels. You can’t prove your beliefs any more than a Muslim can, or a Jew, a Protestant, a Hindu, or a Budist. You subjectively chose one and now your claiming it gives your life objective meaning. You essentially gave yourself meaning, and then claimed it was god. Yet you seem happy? It’s almost like people can make their own meanings in life and be happy. Who’d have thought?
Getting to make your own life choices should make you happier than following the dictates of a tyrant.
@@scambammer6102 precisely.
Recommend the use of paragraphs. The large block of text is difficult for some of us to read.
Wrong ... "Until you can prove that a deity exists ... your life does bot have objective meaning". That sentiment is so clearly wrong man, do you seriously believe that? Our "beliefs" have NO impact on the reality of the situation. There are 2 options: Either a God exists that created the universe with objective morals ... or not. What I believe about those two options doesn't change which one is true AT ALL. Why do so many people believe that their beliefs about a topic can change reality and objective truth?
As an example to help you think more clearly about this, consider conjectures in Maths. Once a conjecture is proven true, then we know that it was always true and there was never a point at which it wasn't true. That logically means that throughout history there are, have been, and will be conjectures that are true but not proven. The fact they are not proven in now way affects the objective truth value of the conjecture.
@@lizzard13666 but we don't know witch one is true
Some of these nutters should come for a holiday in East Germany. 80% atheists here. Seems pretty normal though. People are doing just fine, consistently and happily.
Great to hear considering all the religious trauma surroubding Germany's past
@@atheistechoes9594 especially east germany, oof, communism central back in the day
WLC: 'Life in a universe with God is inherently and objectively meaningful'
...is it? Why? I've seen this sort of thing asserted many times. But never an argument to support it.
It's a false tautology...oh, that's the phrase, "Circular Argument". By defining God as the objective source of meaning, any life with God necessarily is objectively meaningful.
Denying God, per the argument, thus also denies an objective source of meaning to reality/life. Which apparently people struggle with...but idk.
@@onijester56 the word "objective" is carrying normative meaning that it doesn't deserve. What's so great about "objective"?
@@onijester56 THANK YOU. That helps.
@@scambammer6102 There's a metaphysical value to "objective", as well as a psychological angle we could take it. But the core of both is that having something situated as "objective" gives us a consistent point of reference. It lets people set a statement such as "This is true because it's true" and "This is valuable because it's valuable" as an axiom.
Because people struggle to think for themselves and think through their preconceived notions. :P
Pascal’s wager is literally the shittiest argument possible
😹
As a theist, I agree. I cringe pretty hard when I see theist philophers that have college degrees go up and try to use it.
Can you explain why?
I really enjoy your content, dude. I like the insightful and thought provoking questions you ask in a non-agressive, but serious tone.
I'm a Christian myself and it's nice hearing someone else's perspective on things. I've been asking a lot of questions recently. It seems like few of my Christian family or friends really understand me when I try to share my thoughts with them.
But William, we can do the same thing that the creator of your religion did; we can make it up ourselves.
From our perspective that's obvious. But remember that he doesn't think his religion was made up, he truly believes it to be divine truth handed down from god himself.
This is what makes it so difficult for someone like me who has never believed, to even have a discussion with someone like that. We truly have no common frame of reference to start from, we may as well have grown up in different galaxies.
Funny thing is, theists all have plans and goals that are 99% secular. What they actually do rarely has any connection to their purported religious belief. If their belief disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't affect their actual lives at all, except for saving a few hours on Sunday. I have seen Matt Dilly make this point pretty well, essentially: "I have all the same values that you have. I just have more time on Sunday."
At least atheist don’t have to walk through this world pretending.
Change the at least Part, there is nothing desirable Living believing in something that is supposed to give you meaning - instead of making your own life the best it can be.
I also get to not be stupid.
@@R-SXX thats not why i believe. I believe because it is the truth. If i suffer on behalf of the truth then so be it.
@@R-SXX tbh tho some people just need a meaning to live, it straight up makes them happier and want to live if they believe their good behaviour and deeds won't go to waste, that what they sacrifised wasn't meaningless. This is also why some atheists go back to theist. in this case religion is a tool to make each day brighter, the only harm in being theist now is if they decided to never give a choice to their kids about being atheist or not.
@@BlurpGooDiJabba You don't suffer because of any perceived truth. You suffer because you decide that's what you need to do. That's the church speaking, not an actual god.
Andrew, I just want to take a moment and tell you what a GREAT help you’ve been to me and my journey from religion. You helped me see things in life that I never have before and helped me understand those things I saw that I didn’t understand. Thank you so much for all your help! Keep up the good work and overwhelming evidence!