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Christian Apologist Impersonates an Atheist, Atheists Respond
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ส.ค. 2024
- Apologist Sean McDowell posed as an atheist to teach Christian students how to debate atheists. It wasn’t a good idea. Here’s why.
Sean has been role-playing as an atheist for christian students for a while, but he recently stepped up the act, telling students in an apologetics class in a christian high school that he really is an atheist. He then held a Q&A where he discussed the multiverse and fine-tuning, biblical prophecy, consciousness and many other subjects related to theology and apologetics. The discourse between Christians and atheists is already strained, and while I think Sean wants to improve that discourse, acts like these are not the way. If we want to understand how someone thinks, we need to talk to them, not someone impersonating them.
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Sources:
Sean’s “Atheist Encounter” act
• A Christian Role-Plays...
Sean’s follow-up video
• Sean Responds to His "...
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An easy refutation of the biblical madness is revealed in The Science of the Bible or Hebrew Mythology, by Milton Woolley.
Yeah, I watched it as well. I don't remember exactly where I realized he was not an atheist, but I think it was his answer about the origin of the universe.
@Ryan Flynn : it might not be a promising lead, the point of god is to be eternal, so that by definition he would escape the question of his own origin.
which would be a special pleading fallacy would it not?
@@_Tp__ : it absolutely is. God is just a placeholder to avoid answering 'I don't know' to the question of the origin of the unvierse.
After i declared myself an atheist, my father said that he finally understood when a friend of his said that she would have preferred that her sons died than seeing them going further away from God. So basically my father told me that he wished that i died early as a christian, rather than live longly as an atheist. So much love in christianity.
Some Christians are cult-like…
i dont think he should have said what he said. but you have to see it from his perspective. to him there is life after death. to him he'd rather youd stop living now and experience bliss for eternity over you living through the ups and down s of life and then living in unimaginable horror for eternity. he rather you be safe sooner, then in pain longer. that is love.
@@clevernamerighthere9240 but in anyone else eyes is just a big f*ck you
@@clevernamerighthere9240 that is not love.
@@clevernamerighthere9240 No child has to see it from their parents perspective, that's called PARENTING. The OP's father abandoned his role as parent when he treated his child with this hateful cruelty. Actually, according to Eli Weisel, the indifference the father shows to his child's life is worse than hatred. I agree.
"We wanted to teach what atheists are, so here's not an atheist"
Wouldn't want to be too convincing, might actually lose a few christians.
@@FabbrizioPlays lol
@@FabbrizioPlays Can't have that...
@@FabbrizioPlays You know what though, I bet they DID lose a lot of Christians that day. Some of those kids REALLY wanted to be debating an atheist & seemed very frustrated by the answers "Atheist Sean" was giving. I'm betting the reveal that he was lying to them and playing a character did more to hurt their faith that day than any of the non-answers he actually gave.
@@donaldhanning1359 it doesn’t matter much. What benefit does he have to have more or less of ‘Christian’s’
Him: uses a ton of atheist arguments
One of the Christian students: that actually makes sense, I think I’m an atheist now.
Him: wait-
Mission failed
Mission failed successfully
*Task failed successfully*
Emotion is used mainly for solid believers.
LOL @ your nonsensical phrase, _"atheist arguments"._
I’m a closeted atheist in a strict Muslim household. Thank you for your videos, they really inspire me to keep going on :)
fellow closeted atheist in a Muslim household here; my closet is a bit translucent at this point but I'm just trying to ease my parents into the idea that they won't go to hell because I wasn't Muslim myself. I wish there were more atheist content about Islam from ex-Mus.
@@SMAB2007 I believe there is one channel called the Apostate Prophet, if you haven't already seen his videos.
@@Router-we2eh thank you!
@@jouglexander my parents are extremists who have repeatedly said that apostates should be stoned to death.
Christian household here, my parents wanted me to join a conservative or christian club at my college when they saw all the liberal and LGBT stuff
Imagine a debate between an atheist and a christian, while both playing the role of the other without knowing the opponent does the same.
Funny it would be
Lol
it would probably be better than a real atheist and christian debating lol
Hey, that's a good idea, someone should do that.
You sound high. But seriously, that would be awesome; I’d watch that.
The one thing Sean couldn’t do that an atheist will, is to say “I don’t know.” He *had* to give an answer to everything, no matter how cringe-worthy was the answer.
yes this is so annoying... both religious and atheist scientists can say "we don't know and we may never know" but Sean really cant?? so wierd
I like knowing how things work but I'd rather be honest than wrongly assert things. That's a very succinct point that I can appreciate
I believe he was attempting to give answers so they could be rejected... debunked... countered. If you only say I don't know, which is an entirely acceptable answer, you don't give anyone fuel to defeat you with a counterargument. Christianity, among other religions, refuses to say I don't know itself because that's an open door to criticism since they have to know or else their beliefs break down under scrutiny. There must be an answer for everything so it can't be undercut. But that's not how atheism works. Atheism doesn't have to know any answers. It just refuses to agree with terrible, incomplete, inconsistent, illogical answers in an attempt to provide one. They can't reconcile that. And that's why it's so difficult to change their minds -- because they aren't open to change -- they have all the answers already.
@@Salsuero I think that is a great point. Very Aron Ra but I agree
sure , atheist Just give in to where the evidence points? Ignorance is bliss my friend. Ciao
Every time I watch this video I always have the same two thoughts a second after each other:
1) that's actually pretty dope! They're trying to represent the other side as best they can without actually inviting an atheist!
2) wait... why not just actually invite an atheist?
Obviously you can't expose those impressionable youths to an actual atheist, because then there wouldn't be a happy denouement where the guest basically goes "Ignore every argument I put forth for atheism, it was all disingenuous and false!"
A real atheist would open their eyes
why would he feel the need to be so subversive? my only explanation is to completely control the narrative because he could not defend himself without the strawman.
Answer to 2, their answers might be a bit too convincing
To be fair an not every atheist is the best representative for atheism so I am glad they're at least trying to cover that gap with a single mock atheist that can answer most of their questions, but I would rather them just bring in a well spoken one
Something that stuck with me was how when that girl said "I didn't understand anything you were talking about, why would they go through all that instead of just believing in god?"
And I'm floored by it.
Instead of taking it as an opportunity to study something they don't know about... they think "it's so much easier to give up and just believe in god".
Congrats... that's exactly why you're stuck in a cult.
This is why your own bible calls you sheep.
I do want to point out that a cult is a religion that worships a man instead of a God. Christianity believes in a God, not a man. Be careful using words that could be insulting, there is no reason, even if the other person is wrong or mistreats you.
@@toekneeheadless2393 Jesus is a man. As much as christians want to scream otherwise. Not to mention the millions of christian cult leaders who proclaim to be prophets they've had over the centuries.
Furthermore - you're wrong. You might want to look up what defines a cult... and yes it can be the veneration of an entity such as a "god".
Cult = a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
Christianity is a cult.. the deadliest one on earth to date. And deserves to be insulted.
100% wrong. The definition of cult is "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object."
With the added pejoratives of generally being destructive or controlling.
Has zero to do with whether the cult worships a god, a person, a person who is also a god (Jesus), a tree, an idea, etc.
its unthinkable for some religious people that people want to believe the truth instead of believe the most convenient lie
@@toekneeheadless2393that isn’t in the definition of a cult. And even so, Jesus was a man at one point.
The students should have known this guy was a Christian. He never says "I don't know".
Without context, or as someone in that audience, I'd like to believe I'd smell his bullshit from a mile away.
@@EiferBrennan I would just be confused. I think one or two of his answers were fine, but the majority of them didn't really make any sense. As an atheist, I had no idea what he was talking about.
@@vincegonzalez2171 just his vocabulary alone would have tipped me off that he was full of shit.
@@EiferBrennan Also, his voice, with a lot of his answers, sounded like they ended in a question mark. You know when you have that upwards tone your voice when asking a question? He had that at the end of a lot of answers. Definitely a red flag.
@@AWindy94 exactly, and let's not forget his body language, he looks really uncomfortable "roll playing" as an Athiest.
This is such a terribly stupid exercise. “Here’s what an apologists thinks an atheist sounds like.” They’d be so much better off actually having an atheist come and speak to the class. What a waste of time and back patting exercise.
Why the charade? Why not invite an actual atheist to speak for themself? Maybe because they're afraid the athiest might make more sense than apologetics and actually encourage critical thinking.
It even sounds like they have done this before, but with the students knowing that it was role play. I wonder if they would believe that it was for real at this point if an actual atheist where to come to the school
@@AJenbo it even sounds like? He clearly says that every time before this time he does it that way but the person that invited him asked him not to...
@@themousethatroared3371 or maybe not. He doesn't even like to go in without telling him he's not really an atheists first. These kids clearly didn't like him being there very much. If a real atheist wants to do this, let them find their own way in. Why would someone that seemingly really believe in God bring in someone has the potential to lead people astray. Jesus clearly states that everyone will stumble but the ones that causes his children to do so is in for a bad time.
@@matthewhenry9044 Why would someone who really believes in God be afraid to examine those beliefs, or allow them to be examined? Truth welcomes scrutiny; it doesn't condemn it.
I'd honestly be so upset if I was talking to someone claiming to be an authority figure in a subject I am trying to understand more only for them to reveal it was an act and they didn't believe a thing they were saying. I came to the class with trust and now I'm going to not only have less answers to my posed questions, but I'm going to be skeptical about speakers and that class going forward. This only has the opposite effect of what he wanted.
It... it _really_ didn't...
This was just another Wastelander Fundie shitboot tightening the anti-intellectual trap even further and letting their own bullshit self-righteousness pat them on the back where their own """piety""" would supposedly forbid them doing even _that_ much themselves...
Don't ideas stand un there own? Can't you separate the massage from the messenger?
@@yannickm1396ideas don't stand when created disingenuously. I don't think a dude that admits using word salad is being genuine about the ideas they're talking about.
@@bskinner22rianna From what I have heard, Sean presented the atheistic arguments better than most atheists would. Tbh, I think peoples jimmies are getting russled a bit too much over this. Sean did a good job of not just presenting strawmen arguments, he clearly stumped his students
@hankschwiebert145 No he didn't. He didn't sound like an atheist at all.
Can we mention how disturbing it is that there are essentially anti-atheism classes at some high schools.
Just like there are anti religious ones. Why don't we just open the gates for eveyone to have debates? Oh, true... Everyone is unreasonable.
wait you had anti religious classes?? education in america seems fun
_"Can we mention how disturbing it is that there are essentially anti-atheism classes at some high schools."_
What do you mean by your phrase, _"anti-atheism classes at some high schools"?_ Please name and cite the locations of some of the high schools you are talking about, so we can look up whatever it is you are talking about. Please tell us whence you came up with the idea of saying _"there are essentially anti-atheism classes at some high schools"._ Merely from your imagination?
Have fun with your inability to respond rationally to this request, and further demonstrating that your OP is a pile of trash and product of illiteracy that even you know you have no hope of defending! 🤣
@@25dollarbill24 literally every high school that teaches “apologetics”…you acted like that was going to be hard
@@MorganHorse I asked you: _"Please name and cite the locations of some of the high schools you are talking about, so we can look up whatever it is you are talking about."_
You: **
Why can't you answer my request?
His atheist arguments still sound like he is a Christian. It’s odd.
Not odd. Can't trully protray someone else unless you can actually understand them. Wolf in sheep's clothing.
Yeah but at least he does not sound simple minded like Christian Sean
His body language screams preacher.
It doesn't seem that odd to me. Pretty much what I would expect.
@benji X cool story bro. Prove it.
The thing with the fine tuning argument, is that the environment we live in has never changed for life, life has always changed for the environment. The reason we "fit so perfectly" into our environment is that those who do not fit so perfectly did not survive and life has evolved and adapted to the environment.
Yeah. I don't get how people don't get that
I saw a funny thing that was like “if god isn’t real, then why do shoes always fit perfectly?”
My favorite response to this is the pothole filled with water, the water thinks the pothole was made perfectly to fit its shape.
@@apollo6326 that's a joke. Has to be.
The fine-tuning argument is usually about the constants of the universe, not environment. Maybe Sean said that though, idk.
"Sometimes it sucks to be an atheist here."
Tell me about it! Quite often I just pretend to be a Christian because I don't want to start an incredibly annoying debate about it. I just pretend to be Christian and never talk about it because I don't like being on the receiving end of ridicule and hate.
Even though Sean can never truly 100% represent an atheist, it is refreshing to see a Christian who can treat us with respect and empathy, and at least tries to understand.
Does people around you gives a damn about your belief system so much?🫠🫠🫠
I’m not sure how enthusiastic Sean’s “pretend” atheism is. As pointed out, his “atheist” arguments are weak and diluted from the philosophical original argument.
The end of this video is basically an anecdote:
A boy comes home from school and tells his mom: "I don't believe in God anymore, I'm an atheist". Mother slapped him on the back of the head: "What terrible things you say! Go tell this to your father!" The boy goes to his father: "I'm an atheist now!" Father slapped his head and told him to go tell this to his grandfather. The boy went to all the family members, they all did the same and it's time for dinner. Everyone is gathered at the table, and the father asks: "So, what did you learn?" The boy says: "I've been an atheist since noon but already can't stand you Christians!"
The biggest problem with the “fine tuning” argument is that the universe is very clearly NOT fine tuned for life. 99.99%+ of the universe is extremely unsuited for life. Even our tiny planet has vast regions that are unsuited to life. I don’t get how anyone thinks this is a good argument.
There are examples of not-so-fine-tuned worlds at our doorstep. Venus, Earth and Mars are all in Sun's habitable zone, yet only Earth has conditions that allow complex lives to exist and evolve. There may have been very simple lives on Mars, but that's all.
Exactly another reason why I don't think the fine-tuning argument works is that if the universe wasn't fine-tuned then we would have no way to perceive it meaning. Our perception would lead us to believe that all universes can support life because those are the only ones that we can observe
Right. It's like someone once said: We're a puddle of water, fitting so neatly into that sinkhole on the road that we think someone must have created this sinkhole specifically for us, because how could we fit so perfectly into it otherwise? They think that the human is the end of all means and everything was made to fit us, when in reality, we were just the most successfull in fitting into surrounding we were thrown into. We just adapted to life on earth the best, that doesn't mean the earth was made for us.
right these people just want to believe what they want to
Yes indeed, the universe seems to be *NOT* finely tuned for life at all but what is even worse for the theist is that they are by implication admitting that a universe can *only* exist in this one precise way which limits an omnipotent god that theoretically could make a universe with any constants or any way he wanted.
If anything fine tuning is perfectly consistent with naturalism and is something the theist needs *to explain away.*
As an educator, it would be really weird for me to bring in a speaker who was pretending to be who they say they are. Why not just bring in a real atheist? His students were asking questions in good faith and were being gaslit by an impersonator.
To assure them they’re actually right in the end and all the atheist’s claims have solid refutations.
I found the guy to be a completely unconvincing atheist (based on this video), though I'll concede that since I knew up front that he wasn't, that was an easy finding. It's not just that his choice of responses follows Christian lines of response, just inverted as to reasoning. The problem for me was that I would expect an actual atheist speaker to have better responses altogether. An actual atheist speaker with such low quality answers wouldn't be speaking at very many venues. I don't know that I have ever observed an atheist speaker drag the multiverse idea into the discussion, at least not as anything but pure speculation.
I came down here to ask the same thing.
thou shalt not bear false witness -- in trying to trick others into his version of salvation, he condemned his soul to hell (according to the tenets of his own religion!)
This guy wasn't following Christ when he lied to them.
So many Christian Apologists seem to have never heard of the concept of it being wrong to bear false witness.
I was legitimately shocked when he brought up that story at the end. Like, I thought it was going to be a clearly fake story about how he converted someone who was coming out of the faith. But him addressing that and just letting that hang, makes me think he was telling the truth in not trying to set up a strawman, but legitimately just did it on accident.
*By* accident; *on* purpose. English is and always has been extremely weird.
@@ichabod1370 Huh. Never made that mistake before, it was like 2 AM when I made that comment though.
@@CraftingMenace Not surprising -- young people have been "correcting" the oddity of that pairing lately in their speech and writing, so I expect that "on accident; on purpose" will win out in the end, ugly as "on accident" sounds.
@@ichabod1370 It doesn't really matter either way, they honestly sound the same to me.
I’ve been in church long enough in a variety of places to where I can say that stories like this one are told because they’re true, and a painful reminder of how we often fail.
I think I know of 2 or 3 stories that I’ve heard told about situations regarding the way people leave or view the church. The infrequency with which the church as a body ever talks about this with this level of candidness is, to me, evidence of how these stories end up sticking with the people who have to live through them.
As a Christian who has asked himself all kinds of questions regarding my faith, how I want to live it out, how the values I’ve been taught do or don’t match up with the way I’ve been taught to live them, etc, my time since college has been filled with meeting people outside the church, interacting with them, building friendships with them, etc. I don’t have any stories that stand out to me anymore, other than the ones I carry with me from my childhood, because I have my own experiences with being marginalized by the loudly religious, and because I’ve met so many people that it doesn’t stand out to me anymore.
Whatever you believe about religious people, the one truth they share with normal people that applies to this situations are that the stories they tell that demonstrate how they suck tend to have the vivid detail they do because the moment stuck out and stuck with the person.
An easy example on a lighter topic, with me as the subject:
I was helping out with Vacation Bible School as a teen. I was playing my guitar for one of the activities and, when it ended, a girl who couldn’t have been more than 7-8 years old came up to me and asked me why I was using a pick.
Not being sure what she meant, and not really thinking much of her question, I said because it just sounds different than playing with my fingers. She said something like “I know that, but why?”
Unfortunately, I didn’t have time to clarify what she meant, as we had to move on to the next activity, but I will never forget feeling so embarrassed that I didn’t take her question seriously. I’m 30, now, and that experience, along with my own experiences with adults not taking me seriously when I was a kid, almost entirely shape the way I talk to kids today. I refuse to allow myself to speak to kids in a way where they might feel that I’m dismissing them or their problems almost entirely because of that single interaction I had as a maybe 15 or 16 year old boy.
"The beginning of the universe would imply God exists" said no atheist ever.
Omg, I thought I was the only one thinking that 💀💀
You recorded the accounts of every atheists ever?
May I see?
If a beginning implies a creator, then a creator with no beginning implies a creator too. God is an infinite regress argument that doesn’t work in the real world. Atheism wins.
@@adamx9793 Who's to say that the beginning didn't start by properties coming together to create something completely New and now we argue as to what we call this and what's it capable of and Why don't we know?
@@matthewhenry9044 Who created that thing? It doesn't answer anything it creates a billion more questions. Was it a five year old playing on her mother's computer create universes?
he might be roleplaying an Atheist, but he still argues like an Apologist. Apologist Arguments usually only come in one of three flavors: based on false information, based on logical fallacies, or based on pure semantics.
So true!
"he might be roleplaying an Atheist, but he still argues like an Apologist"
As does Sam Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens et al.
@@thomasmaughan4798 Awww did this video ruffle your feathers?
@@flutterwind7686 " Awww did this video ruffle your feathers?"
It did, but a good shake of my tail sorts things out ;-)
Peace, blessing, and mercy of our Munificent creator be upon you, my beloved reader😊.
I am inviting you to worship our creator by accepting Islam and to study the evidence of his existence.
The scientific, metaphysical, historical, and linguistic miracles presented in the heavenly book (the Holy Quran ) that has been sent by our creator are sufficient pieces of evidence. Study the challenge of creating 1 chapter like the Quran. check out the reason that made all the attempts failed.
The scientific miracles in the Quran that was revealed more than 1400 years ago include the chemical composition of the human, the expansion of the universe, the knocking star, the rotation of the earth, the gender determining factor, the orbits, the chronological comparisons of developments of the zygote and the fetus, the origin of the universe, the function of the mountains, the movements of the sun and the earth, the vision in the deep seas, the forbidden breeding ( between some relatives ) , and other scientific miracles.
So, raise your hand to the sky asking your Limitless creator who created you, fed you, and put his mercy on you to help you in finding the truth. ask him for everything.
www.islamreligion.com/category/33/evidence-islam-is-truth/
quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en
th-cam.com/users/Drzakirchannel
Thanks, My beautiful researcher for the truth ❤️.
As a Christian, I have never watched a atheist video and it was very interesting. Thank you
You know what? More comments like this please. Just because people might not agree with you doesn't make you an enemy. Good man.
Hope ya enjoyed and are doin' well! ^-^
Thanks for being respectful about it!
watch more. challenge your faith
Just here to kindly remind you that if the next word starts with a vowel, you use “an” instead of “a”
You have “a belief” but you have “an idea”
The fundamental flaw in Sean’s argument is the assumption that “I don’t know the answer,” is the same as, “There IS no answer.”
"If Christian Sean can't easily debunk Atheist Sean's argument, maybe Sean would actually end up being an Atheist." This gets to the core of the problem with this exercise.
Our little man’s all grown up now
I actually used to be a Christian and have the same objections to Christianity that I do now.
I used to think "well I'm sure all the big Christian thinkers know the answers!"
But when I found out that they actually didn't, I stopped believing.
@@Nerobyrne What I like to say is that so many sects of Christianity hijacked the idea of universal respect, made it so someone had to believe in every story from an ancient book alongside following those standards, then failed to reconcile those two things when contradictions arose. It's one of the most common reasons I see people abandoning various forms of Christianity when they look at it with a critical eye.
If belief helps someone feel like they're not alone in a universe that doesn't care about them, that's great! I just wish the die-hard ones would realize that some of us believed at one point, then felt as though we were being left in the dark when we dared to ask a question with no clear answer that we were simply supposed to "have faith" about.
@Truth Inquisitor there is no rational version of a creator.
No one believes that chemicals randomly collided together to magically create fully formed life.
The first life forms were little more than small bits of replicating polymers called ribozymes.
Actually the only reason we cannot say for certain how life began is that we now have so many scientifically demonstrated chemical pathways for abiogenesis to take place. We can’t Pick just one.
@Truth Inquisitor if reality really proved God, then why wouldn't people who build things to interact with reality be honest about it?
They would need to tell the people at uni that God is real and how it works, because otherwise they won't be able to do science. But the fact that I've been there and we always worked without any regard for God means that God isn't involved in science.
It's not easy to take on 90+ minutes of content in 47 minutes. Well done! Proud to contribute a part.
I couldn’t have done it without you, my friend!
@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic Great shout out to Paulogia !
The community grows !!
Perhaps a misleading 12+21=33 on the Josephus references?
Paul’s channel is probably my favorite on TH-cam right now. He offers thoughtful, clear analysis and the perfect tone. Along with Drew, I couldn’t recommend him highly enough.
As if a Christian school would ever invite an atheist to speak.
some would - not all christians are apologetic or evangelist
I’m very fortunate that my parents, who have been christian missionaries my entire life, are still willing to have dialogue with me about religion, politics and existential questions. I first told them I was not a Christian when I first got to college, but the seeds for the deconstruction of my faith had been there as early as middle and high school. Even when I came out as bisexual to them, they did take it personally, they cried and said they “fear for my soul”, but they didn’t cut ties with me or shame me for leaving the church, which I’m told by most of my friends is an extremely uncommon reaction. It’s so tough to talk with them sometimes because they are both well educated, loving people, but they have absolutely committed their entire lives to Jesus and spreading Christianity to the world that it seems impossible that either of us will change our minds. The best thing I can say about them is that they value their connection with me as their son more than their faith or any ideologies they posses, and I think that’s worth celebrating at least.
WHen I was like 13 I had a debate with myself where I was my normal Christian self and then I responded as an atheist to ask myself questions. I wasn't an Atheist but my caricature of an atheist literally ended up winning the debate
LOL😂
that must have caused some moments of ''doess not compute'' for your young brain... i be curious if your still theist or gone atheist when older.. but either case you at least sound like you got a decent critical thinking development as young and thats whats important ;)
That is quite literally how I became an atheist. I debated myself, and found the christanish argument (I was like 6-7 so it probably wasn't a fair assessment of actual Christian) lacking compared to the new science stuff I was watching on youtube and nova (mainly nova i think).
The way I love to try to solve anything that wasn’t as simple as “how to fix the table” was to argue with myself. I like to take the sides of all my options, argue for their positives and negatives, and see which wins out.
Usually works somehow.
Ok, this is adorable XD.
"Atheist Roleplay?" Seems dishonest at best and cowardly at worst. Like, just invite an actual atheist speaker. Those exist.
Someone asked this on his video, and he states that he usually does, which like, why not just let that athiest talk?
They should invite a scientist and get a proper education instead of this indoctrination of fine tuning.
@@TorianTammas I think you misunderstand the intentions. They don't want to educate, they want to indoctrinate.
Think about it like this. Say you want an advertisement for a your new burger. What approach would you take? A commercial with a juicy burger falling on some primo buns and it makes your mouth water. Or do you let a scientist sit there and tell you the truth about it, telling you the risks it poses, the global ramifications etc?
@@icecremer I'm certain he understood their intentions just fine. He just believes they should've actually educated, instead.
Unless it's a kink. "Say EVOLUTION, you sexy sinner!"
Sean is playing chess against himself with a clear winner in mind, then claiming to be teaching students the best way to play.
We are, as atheists, okay with not knowing an answer. We follow the evidence. The best line is by you! You said something along the lines of, “The Christian Sean is presenting arguments as atheist Sean in a way that only Christian Sean knows how to refute. If he actually believed what he was saying then he’d be an actual atheist.” Love this! Lastly, I used to be a Christian too and studied the Bible up and down. I honestly don’t think I’d be able to play devil’s advocate (pun intended) on the part of a Christian apologetic without a good amount of bias. It’s like taking the one color pill in the Matrix (I forget if it’s blue or red) that shows reality; I can’t unlearn such logical thinking that I’d be able to convert back to Christianity. When I was a Christian, I really had a lot of questions, however. There was a part of me that thought, “this all sounds like bull sh|t.” That’s because it is. Now, there may actually be a god! I just DON’T KNOW. There’s isn’t any (not little, or even minute) evidence for a creator that can be proved. Why would an all loving god create me and others to exist then? That’s a cruel god.
Pretending to be an atheist: Nonsensical arguments
Revealed as a christian: See, atheism doesn't make sense.
A christian lies...jesus took the punishment... that's how they "win" in their mind.
@James Patrick That was his point. To be believable enough so that the Christian kids would think he was actually an atheist, but still bad arguments and nonsensical if you actually think about them.
i would change "nonsensical arguments" into
"not using the actual atheist argument but trying to pose as one to deliberately mislead people" argument
yup, too wordy but more accurate
@James Patrick they were nonsensical in the sense that they are not actual arguments by atheist, he actually "uncleverly" misrepresents the arguments
The way this pretend atheist described this phony path to atheism should've been an easy way to tell that this man was not a real atheist. It just sounded way too cliché to be believable.
I like how they couldn't get an actual atheist to come in because he/she might have some valid objections that turn people away from the faith.
Yeah. It's like wanting the class to hear about someone's personal stories of racial discrimination, then hiring a blackface-wearing white guy to tell them.
I think they just want to show of their dishonesty.
@@ChefMimsy that is perfect example of what’s going on here 👍 respect for the analogy
@@ChefMimsy That is a great analogy.
When I watched Sean's video unaware of him before, I was really surprised that this class was an actual apologetics class and they had terrible arguments and misunderstandings towards faux Sean.
This is awful 😂 those students should feel completely coddled at that point. Even when they are exposed to a real opposing worldview it has to turn out to be faked.
The comment on existing in a conservative context as an atheist is very true. I grew up in a rural community in West Texas and as I realized I was an atheist in my teens it was pretty brutal. Add to this that I'm a pansexual and a socialist (which may be in large parts a result of knowing how conservatives treats atheists and LGBTQ people) and it wasn't easy and has given me a deeply rooted understanding of christians as some of the worst human beings in existence. Now living in a Scandinavian country it's so liberating to know my views on the divine is the norm, not a rare exception.
Despite his poor ability to make atheistic arguments, Sean deserves credit for acknowledging hardship an atheist might face when coming out in a deeply religious community
I do appreciate that.
I also give props to the organizer of the event for telling the students to follow truth even if that means they won’t be Christian
His goal is clearly to convert atheists with "Christian love", though.
And this, of course, was the point with the whole speech + Q&A. Still, GMM chooses to critique the speakers' mock atheists. I actually found it disingenuous and bad faith to start to argue back, knowing that this professor had this speech in front of high-schoolers to learn them the lesson of listening to arguments from the other side.
@@gauteterning420
_> to learn them the lesson of listening to arguments from the other side_
Nope. To learn to dismiss the arguments from the other side with more confidence, to become more fundamentalist and less susceptible to reason.
Imagine an atheist doing this as a "Christian." The uproar would be deafening.
I demand this be the plot of Borat 3!
no no I would like us to set up a new religion teapotism based on teapots lets make the doctrines and copy most if not all arguments for christianity and make some of our own to demonstrate the flaws of christianity
I'd love to do that, or at least see it.
I am not so sure. It would be an acid test in a way for atheists ability to steel man the argument..
Lemme guess... you also think that people would get in an uproar if the genders were switched in a even more trivial matter
as someone from the uk i am actually rather shocked that there is such a thing as a class in "christian apologetics" in any school or university. perhaps i have led a sheltered life!
Like you, I am from the UK. I find the religiosity of the US to be puzzling and quite scary.
The interesting thing is that our country is the second most institutionally religious country in the world, the first being Iran. In our schools we have compulsory religious assemblies, religious instruction/knowledge. We have unelected lords and Bishops in the House of Lords. Yet hardly anybody goes to church.
I watched the coronation of King Charles on TV and found the church service to be really bizarre.
It is high time that the institutions of our state became secular.
Hey ho, a silly American here. This sort of class is *not* the norm in my experience; they typically exist in specifically theistic private schools, not in forms of public education. We do often have theology classes, but that is evidently quite different than an apologetics class. Believe me, even though I already know it happens: I'm shocked too. Each and every time.
This is a christian private school, not a public school.
True, but the religious studies in my experience in high school, were quite objective and just studied the practices of the most popular religions in the world. Mostly to raise awareness of peoples difference in a melting pot like the uk
There are theologians that study all or many religions in university.
The world is not fine tuned for us, we are fine tuned for the world as it is.
Yeah I’m surprised that Sean McDowell didn’t go with this response. I feel like it is the obvious response, and I’m sure Sean has been exposed to it before. His response definitely feels more like a straw man because he didn’t mention this.
Like if we weren’t specifically perfect for the world, we wouldn’t be here to observe such fine tuning
If a Christian ever figured out how to convincingly portray an atheist I’m pretty sure they’d just be an atheist lol
Lol, and this is why we have yet to see one.
Spot on!
I was an atheist so I know how you think already fool - and by the way, you're going to hell without faith in what Jesus did for us.
@@MyNameIsChristBringsASword well at least you got the hatred and immaturity down like a true Christian.
@@Steef_Lee poor thing your feelings are hurt. Did my free speech upset you?
He sounds like he's promoting Christianity even when he's posing as a Athiest.
Personally the way he talks and walks is pure preacher.ways
He certainly is a serious fellow.
And asking people to believe only if it’s true is his way of saying, Don’t be a luke-warm Christian. It’s a “stack the deck” choice, I mean, these are teenagers in a Christian school for crying out loud.
Instead, I want people to be luke-warm and loosey-goosey about whatever religion they’re in. For example, I’d love to have a Pagan wedding! No, I don’t really believe in it. But I like the ritual and I love the fact that it takes place outside in nature. It would be an “open source” Pagan wedding as it were. Of course, something to negotiate with my eventual spouse! Cheers. 🌈 🚴🏾♂️ 🚴🏽♂️ , 🚴♀️ 🚴🏽♀️ , 🚴🏾♂️ 🚴🏻♀️
@@madams3478 he sounds like he is using reverse psychology.
He is.
"He sounds like he's promoting Christianity even when he's posing as a Athiest."
As will an atheist promote atheism even while posing as a Christian.
It's almost like this conversation would be better served for both sides by having an actual atheist do the debate with the students. Crazy thought.
My sisters’ first acknowledgment of my atheism/agnosticism was to present the fallacy, “You know, for someone who doesn’t believe in god, you sure say his name a lot,” after I said “oh my god,” once too many.
This shit is why I don’t trust people.
I once tried having a logical debate with a preacher when i was young. My dad brought him to my house to "change" me. He asked me if I would read some of his books and it would make me have a new outlook on life. He said I would have to do it without thinking I already know the answers. I said "sure why not, but only if you read some books I have with out the preconceived notion that you are right and i am wrong." He flat out refused. He said "I can't do that because I am right and you are wrong". I said "then we can't have a intellectually honest conversation and this is pointless." It ended with him screaming at me lmfao.
You live in a country of mentally deranged people. I didnt know people tried to "cure" family members from atheism over there. I thought this was only depicted in some science fiction or dystopian novels/ tv shows. effing scary
@@rogueninja185 correct, it’s terrifying
@@rogueninja185 You have no idea how deranged.
Alyssa:
How bad could it have been?
Holden:
Put it this way: have you ever heard a nun call an eight year-old boy a f***ing c*nt rag?
-Chasing Amy
my religious journey ended with a preacher telling me "you must take it on faith" -- If I have to believe something that is contrary to logic and reality, then I want no part of it.
How is the universe "fined tuned" for us? We have one tiny speck of it and outside of that we will literally die. It's almost like we adapted to the surroundings or something.
It's the puddle, saying the sinkhole in the road conforms so well to them that the sinkhole must have been specially made just for the puddle.
I also don't get the cosmological argument. Why does the universe need a creator "because nothing can be eternal and just exist", so it needs to have been created by god who "is eternal and just exists"? Why move the goalpost like that? Why does god not need to play by the ultimate rule they just established? If something can apparently just exist and be eternal, because god apparently is, then why can't we just cut the middleman and say the universe is eternal and just exists?
Also the fact that we literally had to destory and rebuild our environments to make it habitable for us.
Earth is fine-tuned for cockroaches.
@@cnault3244 I guess we found God's most beloved species. All Hail Our cockroach overlords.
@@shridharbiju7370 Did you know that a cockroach can live a full week after its head has been removed from its body?
While the cockroach can only survive a week without water, it can live without food for an entire month.
As soon as a cockroach is born, it can almost run as fast as a grown cockroach.
Some believe that cockroaches lived through the Carboniferous era over 280 million years ago. In other words, they've lived through it all, so make sure your strategy to eliminate them is more intimidating than the dinosaurs.
The cockroach can hold its breath for about 40 minutes.
Did you know that there are over 4,000 different species of cockroaches around the world?
46:10 Beautifully said. It really was very nice to hear an apologist acknowledge this, and I hope Sean sees this and takes it to heart.
“Thou shalt not bear false witness” anyone?
I thought he was an atheist until he took the glasses off. Such a great disguise.
I mean hey, it worked for superman.
According to the God-despising fools who like to say _"I'm an atheist, but Christians are atheists too; I just happen to believe in one less god than they believe in!"_ he is an atheist.
He just needed a spandex underneath some Victoria secret panties and a cape
@@25dollarbill24 And according to the science-denying bozos who like to say, "I'm a Christian, but Atheists are just 1 step away from agnosticism and then 1 step closer to Christianity!", all atheists are just 2 steps from being Christian.
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's Superchristian!!!
When I can out as an atheist at age 15, my mom cried and said she feels like she failed as a parent. While I do think she failed as a parent by raising me as a christian in the first place, I don't think that me becoming an atheist is evidence of that. Mom, you taught me critical thinking since I was in preschool. In 7th grade, you made me take a course in logical fallacies. You taught me to be open minded and question everything. And most importantly, you gave me access to a child safe search engine and a precursor to TH-cam Kids in sixth grade and later free range of the internet and TH-cam. Those are things a good parent does. Yes, it was because of you that I became an atheist. But it's not your fault. It was the best thing that could ever happen to me. That is not a failure as a parent. That is a success.
"When I can out as an atheist at age 15"
Perhaps you would be the first on this page (or even all of TH-cam) to say what is an atheist, that you can come out as one!
in a book which over 2,000 years ago said that in the end, the moon will turn red which is happening now the moon is literally rusting, also in that book Jesus says towards the end times people will claim to be him AND deceive many, and there's multiple people who did that recently. It also says the bottom of the ocean has mountains and valleys while scientists back then believed it was flat. Jesus stated that he's aware people hate him and his followers, even to the point of them being tortured and killed so it's not like he was trying to be a favorited celebrity to the entire public, also there would be no point into creating a fictional figure to target that hatred away from the writer because the writer states that the followers will be hated too, Jesus also stated that in heaven there is no marriage and no one will be given into marriage in heaven so I doubt that's man-made and if you think it's because we say we're all children in the eyes of God that's not a valid argument because what's the difference if we're on earth? I can keep on going but I think you get the point, why live off the assumption that there's no God when there's evidence for so much more? At least look into it more and sorry some "Christians" mistreat you
@@carminegiaquinto7426 The moon turning red likely referred to a lunar eclipse, which literally makes the moon appear red, and not rusting, as there is not enough iron on the surface of the moon for any significant amount of rusting to be noticeable from earth. There have been people who have claimed to be the second coming of Jesus since he died. If you could point me to any verse about the bottom of the ocean not being flat, I would appreciate it. I literally could not find a single verse about the shape of the ocean floor. But overall, there is no reason to believe that "the end times" are coming any time soon.
@@carminegiaquinto7426
_why live off the assumption that there's no God when there's evidence for so much more?_
Evidence? Really? OK, I'll call your bluff. How about *one piece of good evidence* that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Alternately, I'd accept *one piece of good evidence* that _any_ of the magical/supernatural stories in the Bible actually happened. (Your choice.)
I'm not interested in a Gish Gallop of vague claims, but you claim that there's evidence, so can you demonstrate that your claim is true with even *one* example?
Yeah, growing up my parents constantly reinforced how important it was to question every message we received from the world, then were surprised when I couldn't help but apply those critical thinking skills to our religion...
I love it. A stunt like that, about 55 years ago, caused me to realize that it was actually possible to ask the question in the first place. I've been working on the answer ever since. Other students mentioned it to their parents who promptly had that teacher fired... life goes on.
The level of dishonesty it takes to lie to children is staggering. Why not just get a real atheist?
Oh, yea, because you would lose the children....
As a former secret Atheist Science Teacher at a fundamentalist Christian school I guarantee you that there were many students in that crowd that were secretly atheists. At my school they flocked to me like moths to a flame because honestly I’m terrible at hiding my beliefs and because I was the only person in their lives that made them feel able to ask questions. Even despite that small story of the atheist girl at the end, I would expect that a number of them were crushed by this bait and switch. For the first time they were being acknowledged and then they had that ripped away. Just awful.
"I would expect that a number of them would be crushed by this bait and switch. for the first time they were being acknowledged and then they had that ripped away."
EXACTLY. that's partially why what he did annoys me.
I was fortunate enough to never have to hide my atheism. Was still forced to attend church though.
@@treacherousjslither6920 To be honest I have never had to hide it either besides the 2 years I worked at that school. I frankly lied about my involvement in religion to get that job in the first place to land the position as it was the first teaching job I got out of University so in the end it was probably my own fault lol
@@bullscott12 Yeah sounds like it was lol
Absolutely, yep, it's a pathetic and revolting little tactic, on many levels.
"We know this because of philosophy" no we don't. That's not what philosophy is for
If you think really hard, you'll eventually get to the right answer.
Like, somehow philosophy is universal truth or something! Christian apologists rely so heavily on it!
What is philosophy for if not answers?
@@Grantalope10 For philosophy to get you the right answers, you need to start with the right information. Saying "We know this because philosophy" is akin to saying "we know this because of logic". Both are just processes.
@@crawbug8932 yet that is considered a legit argument by many I have interacted with.
Logic exists - Therefore God
My problem with Christian apologetics is that they try to convince atheists of the existence of God by saying we can't explain certain phenomenon of the world. But when you ask them why that is an argument for the existence of God they can't answer you...
Dude LOOKS like the wikipedia definition of "Youth Pastor"...
“I’m not trying to set up a straw man”
*Becomes the straw man
Bruh he's so full of straw that a farmer could line a horse pen with him
Dude should be skipping down the yellow brick road with Dorothy and Toto.
I'M THE STRAWMAN NOW
lol
I think that's an unfair assessment. Sean came really close to understanding the arguments and he just really doesn't understand them better than that. Genetically Modified Skeptic explained and showed that with footage of Sean making the apologist arguments. I think that Sean honestly tried his best and he is just sincerely wrong.
What a chad
"I'm trying not to set up a strawman." Well he's right. He isn't setting up a strawman, he is becoming the strawman.
i'd say muppet with the way he flails his arms around whenever he talks
@@BobSmith-ew5oi This is unreadable
I do believe that his attempt, although unsuccessful, was genuine.
The scare crow, made of straw, in the Wizard of Oz: "If I only had a brain".
@@BobSmith-ew5oi was this the love child of a monkey and a typewriter?
Woah. The ending where he said those things about treatment of atheists really spoke to me. He seems like he has his heart in the right place, but because of our personal biases (which all of us have, and which are incredibly difficult to fully put aside), he misstepped in some areas. I think he’s a good guy that intended for the best, but human psychology did get him in some places.
All that aside, he seems like the exact kind of person I’d like to be there whenever there’s a discussion on these topics. Which is shockingly profound to me.
I adore seeing good role models like this, and it’s great to find one which isn’t in my sect, because it humanises them so much more. I hope he heeds your advice, Drew. As a role model yourself, who does similar things and does really good work in holding biases aside, I’m sure your words would ring strongly
Edit: I should also add I came into this video ready to see Sean showed to be a terrible person for the impersonation he’s done. And while it wasn’t a good method to take, I’m really impressed by how drastically my view changed
Sean came to an Awana Bible Quiz competition and did his "act". I've never seen so many kids who though they knew the answers to everything Bible and Christianity related be so dumbfounded. He wiped the floor with us and I've never forgotten it
I'd have been extremely disappointed if this had been my experience: there would have been students there experiencing doubt regarding their beliefs with associated relief that finally an athiest was speaking up - only to feel duped by the very school that has imposed and enforced their rules & regulations up until that point.
YES. This was my first thought when I watched this. I just imagine feeling like, “Finally, a safe person. Maybe I’ll be able to tell someone.” and then finding out they were an apologist who might talk to my teacher if I tell them. It’d be awful.
Yeah thats uhh.. thats uhh.. cancer
I thought the same yeah. Allthough that is to no discredit to Sean. I think he's a genuine person that's trying his best to make Christians more accepting.
@@GeneticallyModifiedSkeptic Its gaslighting...hiring a fake atheist, a poser. I would like to see these schools hire real atheists who have the ability to answer students questions accurately. Do you do any public speaking?
Great that he tells them to be nice, but he still reveals himself as a professional liar who fears the opposition far too much to ever actually face it. To me, typical. To the students, we can hope it's disillusioning.
"How can you not believe in God? The universe is fine-tuned for human life!" he said, as he put on his hat, coat, & gloves for the walk out to his car.
For real, it’s he universe is not fine tuned for our existence, most of the universe is completely inhabitable. We have simply adapted to our surroundings according to our needs.
Why did i find this poetic👁👄👁
Kinda like when you're looking for something you lost and it's always in the last place you look. Because obviously you would stop looking at that point. Its not some great miracle or coincidence.
@@AzureViking I'll respectfully reject that analogy. "last place you look" generally means you've looked in every place conceivable and the last possibly place it can be is where you find it, as opposed to finding it on the table before you've even looked in the cupboard. it doesn't mean literally the last place you looked before stopping.
@@MaDPuPPeTgames I've lost a lot of things in my life. Never have I looked for one in every conceivable place.
I’m so glad you made this response. That video came up in my feed as well. I didn’t make it to the reveal at the end, because his arguments seemed too embarrassing. I couldn’t stand it.
I was listening to this while playing a game, and then started hearing audio from another of GMS' videos that I had recently watched, and then thought I was going insane because his speech patterns are so consistent
"This is a problem science can't answer, it doesn't have evidence, but it isn't a problem for Christianity, because we don't have to prove any of our assumptions!"
Someone had to create the universe, but since god is outside of space and time and has always existed, we don’t have to explain what created god.
Hhahaha You say presumption we say welcome to knowing a God who is just that amazing and can do all things.
Jesus loves you and died for our sins amen beautiful day to serve the Lord Jesus
@@Dozav7 go ahead and explain how something can exist outside of time and space, first of all, and then explain why the universe didn't come about by itself. Good luck.
@@deesott5123 ridiculous.
@@Dozav7 i dont think the bibble says anything about space and time
"I believe in the multiverse, and that is the beginning of our universe"
I don't know any atheist that LEADS with something like this.
He's the first.....its so dumb. Very condescending
as an athiest I would just say :
"i do not know"
Where does the universe come from?
Wel I hold 2 contradicting believes
1. The conversation of energy
2. Everything has a beginning and an end.
These 2 believes do not work together but both make logical sense in 99% of the cases. There is the big bang but conversation of energy demands something before the big bang so it is not the start. In the end I must simply admit that I do not know everything, no one does. God has the same problem btw, conversation of matter also demands god is made from something by something.
I've never come across an atheist who even uses the concept of the multiverse as an argument against god at all... I know some people who tentatively believe in the multiverse, but are also well aware that it's at the fringes of theoretical physics and not supported by any data whatsoever, only that it's a mathematical possibility. But even people who believe in it don't think it either proves or negates the existence of any god. It's just irrelevant to the discussion.
Yep, since when atheism was about cosmology? The best scientists in the world who study these complex questions don't know yet but believers in a book about talking snakes and zombies know exactly how the universe formed...
@@JeroenDoes conversation LMFAO!!
When I came out as an atheist to my family they just accepted me, and I'm lucky for that. I wasn't surprised that they were very accepting as my sibling had come out as an atheist before me and freely accepted them, and actually before that happened I didn't even know that there were people who didn't believe in god. That experience is actually what led me to questioning my faith and ultimately led to me becoming an atheist. However my friends asked me questions about why I was an atheist, and I could answer many of them very easily, and it was far easier to disprove their arguments against me than to answer their questions. Most of the people in my life who somehow don't know that I'm an atheist attempt to challenge my atheism and I can usually easily tear apart and counter their arguments.
Imagine if Sean is really an atheist pretending to be christian
Imagine his plan backfired and he actually convinced a few of them to leave their faith lol
That might actually happen. Who knows? Once they realize he was lying to them about being an atheist, they might start wondering about what _else_ he's been lying about.
@@Bill_Garthright I really hope so
@@jasondumas3612 LOL same here - the irony
That's the beauty of salvation. Once saved always saved. You cannot lose it. Nice try Satan. Nice try.
@@MyNameIsChristBringsASword Does that go for all the atheists that once were “saved”?
Nothing says "defending the faith" like bearing false witness.
Ironic "Amen" brother.
Lying for Jesus!
Good thing that there's nothing about this in his book that would mean that he is going to suffer for eternity.
Wait... What was that last part of you comment again?
It's not a problem, whenever Jesus is angry you just say "sorry for the sin and stuff J.C" And your good again.
Well it benefits them, and locks the uncertain down that much tighter, so, _of fucking course_ it could never _possibly_ count...
Those closing thoughts though. Man, powerful.
I am so glad I found your channel. Gives me hope.
I have been really thinking about what you and Holy Koolaid and Paulogia talk about on some of the vids. So many feels!
Thank you for making these videos. I live in Oklahoma and it's a constant battle to separate church from anything. I personally am a de facto Athiest, but the only person that knows this is my wife who is also Athiest.
My entire family and extended family are predominantly Southern Baptist (I've seen many ppl speak in tongues). I have attempted to ask questions, but just from my inquiries I felt it was always going to be a challenge if I told my family I was Athiest not to mention my friends and community. Therefore, I still have only told one person in my life. I'm 35 now and I suspect I'll never be comfortable telling anyone I'm Athiest in my lifetime, at least as long as I live here and I think it's sad. I appreciate you highlighting that topic.
Those poor students :(
And that poor girl who literally went to him and told him she was an atheist :(
Hope they're all doing well.
I mean there is a reason why atheist are a minority in Texas. If you are not a Christian then pack your bags and leave as soon as you can.
Just screams closeted something we just won’t ever know until he winds up on a list lol
It would almost seem a person who was previously Christian would be better at playing a Christian than Sean, who has never been an atheist, is at playing an atheist.
Sean has been an atheist. Everyone has.
I can't even pretend to be a Christian anymore. Last time I pretended to be a Christian to a member of my family I deliberately said I accepted evolution, because it was the only way I could still retain some of my intellectual integrity.
@@laislyra5512 A lot of Christians accept evolution, most of them are outside the US
@@TorianTammas I think Brazil is unfortunately not one of these countries XD
This cousin I talked to went on saying "there's little hope for a Christian who believes in evolution" and literally admitted he wouldn't accept any scientific evidence if it didn't support the Bible and that it is devil's work.
But I mean, what can I do? Pretend I didn't go to school and that I didn't have to remove my wisdom tooth?
@@TorianTammas Funny, so many people have a hard time grasping how vast and diverse the US really is, especially Americans. I'd say at least 50% of christians in my area believe in evolution, there are very few literalists around here.
I just came across your channel today, and have been really enjoying it. I appreciate how empathetic and even keeled you are.
I didn't grow up particularly religious, though it was just kind of accepted that God existed. When I was in college, I was so desperate to find some meaning to life that I fell into a Christian Cult. We're talking fundamentalist on steroids. After 12 years in the cult, I finally got out. Unfortunately, while I was in the cult, my family got serious about religion and joined another church. I've told them all that I am an atheist and that I do not believe that if the God of the Christian Bible existed the way the Bible describes him to be, he would not allow for such evil and hurt that I and others in the cult were exposed to to happen in his name. Yet still, they persist in telling me, "Well you just went to a bad church. You were on fire for God once, you can be again." Thank goodness for my brother, who never believed in God in the first place, he's been a great support.
I became an ex christian by comedically pretending to be an atheist
“I’m not trying to set up a strawman”
“Also multiverse”
No shit!
Even if we count the comment sections, I have seen a total of 2 atheists quoting the multiverse as an explanation.
I guess "We don't know, but adding a personality to whatever started the universe is unnecessary and unevidenced." would make too much sense.
Also StRiNg ThEoRy
Most atheists I've come across don't use"multiverse!" as an all-purpose excuse. I find myself that a simple "we don't know" is good enough. It's religious apologists who are arrogant and cocksure enough to be 100% certain how the universe began.
He probably thinks that's an atheist's strongest answer.
You can always tell a Christian by the way they say and pronounce “God” and “Jesus”. It’s subtle but pay attention.
It’s like airy and mystical and drawn-out
Yep.
It's like they cream their pants everytime.
Also using adjectives like 'holy' and 'almighty' I dont think I've ever heard an atheist refer to a God as 'holy' God.
Peace, blessing, and mercy of our Munificent creator be upon you, my beloved reader😊.
I am inviting you to worship our creator by accepting Islam and to study the evidence of his existence.
The scientific, metaphysical, historical, and linguistic miracles presented in the heavenly book (the Holy Quran ) that has been sent by our creator are sufficient pieces of evidence. Study the challenge of creating 1 chapter like the Quran. check out the reason that made all the attempts failed.
The scientific miracles in the Quran that was revealed more than 1400 years ago include the chemical composition of the human, the expansion of the universe, the knocking star, the rotation of the earth, the gender determining factor, the orbits, the chronological comparisons of developments of the zygote and the fetus, the origin of the universe, the function of the mountains, the movements of the sun and the earth, the vision in the deep seas, the forbidden breeding ( between some relatives ) , and other scientific miracles.
So, raise your hand to the sky asking your Limitless creator who created you, fed you, and put his mercy on you to help you in finding the truth. ask him for everything.
www.islamreligion.com/category/33/evidence-islam-is-truth/
quran.ksu.edu.sa/index.php?l=en
th-cam.com/users/Drzakirchannel
Thanks, My beautiful researcher for the truth ❤️.
I really appreciate this guys' goals for the debate, we need more stabilizers and less catalyzers between theist and non-theist public discourse
This is a master class on why cultural appropriation is considered unethical. If you don’t belong to a group of people, it is impossible to completely accurately represent the behaviors and beliefs of that group. No matter how large your sample size is, it will never truly equal the population. Whenever you do this in public, you contribute to the dialogue about that group without that group being present to correct you or affirm that you are correct. Even in the best of intentions, this leads to misrepresentation that can quickly spiral into demonization in the minds of those that don’t know any better.
My god these questions from students absolutely breaks my heart. "Why you do hard stuff like science? Ain't God easier?"
I'm disturbed
Nice quote. However, I couldn't seem to find that anywhere throughout the hour-long full debate video. Where'd you get it from?
Second on gaming guardian
@@gamingguard1an167 No problem we all make mistakes. I'm paraphrasing obviously but it's the young lady at 9:00 who asked what I simplified.
@@imfamoushippo0423 9:00 young lady. I paraphrased obviously instead of writing the several sentences she said.
The first rule of apologetics is probably: If you weren’t dishonest you failed.
- Abe Lincoln, probablx
It's apologetics, making the irreconcilable appear reconcilable, that's why whoever created the practice had a brief moment of honesty and apologised for it by calling it apologetics.
@@jarrodpurvis2611 It is probably the first application of the first rule.
@@cy-one I was going to say George Carlin
@@atheistsfightclub6684 pretty sure it was dubbed by people that weren’t practicing the apologetics.
As an atheist who has been lucky enough not to deal with discrimination, it hurts me deeply to know that many do.
I think many Christians would be shocked at the fact that, for many atheists/agnostics, the thought of god or religion just DOES NOT come up in our daily lives. The only time I think about it at all is when I watch other people discuss it or someone religious I know brings it up. God & faith just aren’t a part of my daily existence and it’s hard for me to wrap my brain around the idea that it’s something people devote a lot of time to.
"I thought I'd bring in someone who does what I do to you, but this time, he's not pretending...."
*a few 30 minutesses later*
"I was totally pretending".
Way to build trust with your students, lol.
If the students take any lesson from this stunt it should be the need to question everything told to you by authority figures, most especially when they insist you can trust them.
If only the Bible said something against lying, then they probably wouldn’t do this stuff.
Oh well.
@@jarrodpurvis2611 If you're talking about bearing false witness, they already have an answer for that.
"Ok, I'm unenrolling now, and transferring to a REAL college!" 😂
@@liamfarranree4433 Absolutely! Question everything!!!
Students should have known he’s an apologetics professor based on his use of spiked hair, fully buttoned untucked plaid shirt, and trendy glasses. He’s hip.
If we're splitting hairs, he didn't button the top button.
@@m0j0b0ne lol very true. He tried to low key play it off.
@@DrCbass123
Maybe he did it "ironically".
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I'm a real atheist and can confirm we dont use hair gel or wear fancy shirts. We also dont fly across the country to speak to a room full of christian children during a global pandemic. The fact these students couldnt call bullshit immediately is exactly why they are the way they are. No street smarts.
Drew, I don’t know how you’ll feel about me saying this, but you’re one of the most Christian people I’ve ever met, and you’re an incredible atheist that every christian should learn from.
I don’t really know how to express how amazing this video, especially the final minutes, were. I know you’ve already come to terms with your deconstruction, and I really don’t hope to be so forward with my comment, but I just wanted to be a Christian that validated the faith you did have, because it’s clear to me that it was more real than the faith of many I’ve met who still call themselves Christian, while also admiring the atheist you’ve become.
You’re a damn good person, better than I often am, and finding this channel makes me happy.
You can give a compliment without throwing the christian label at him.
@@guaranagaucho3071 for one, I was specifically commenting on how his values line up with the ones so many Christians preach and shout about. I’m basically calling him a better Christian than most I’ve met.
Second, I’ve fully deconverted now, and I still stand by what I said. Drew is one of the most Christian people I’ve ever met. He lives out the values far too many conservative evangelicals love to delude themselves into thinking they have.
This makes me so thankful that the church I go to is as good as it is. I'm agnostic, but I go because of the community, and because I want to better understand this religion. Once the pastor pulled me aside and said, so I can tell you aren't Christian, what do you believe? And we had an amazing conversation about each of our beliefs. There was no trying to sway the other to our side, or competition, or saying one of us was correct over the other. I feel terrible for the people who have had such bad experiences involving Christianity, or religion in general.
"All this... science-y stuff, I couldn't understand it." - best summary of why ignorant people turn to the god of the gaps. No need to think.
"All this... science-y stuff, I couldn't understand it."
Do you understand sciencey stuff?
@@thomasmaughan4798 I know you weren’t asking me, but I understand a good bit, yes. To address Cory, though, I’d like to add that it is not necessary for anyone to understand science in order to reasonably come to the position of Atheism... because Atheism is not based on science, it is based on reason (broadly speaking). Rejecting god claims on the basis of lacking evidence does not require any science. For instance: you don’t have to understand evolution at all in order to reject creationism... all you need to do is ask for evidence of creationism and be capable of spotting fallacious reasoning. When the apologist inevitably throws the question back at you and simply asks “how in the world did all of this get here if not for a god?”, you don’t need to know the science because “I don’t know” is entirely valid. Failing to provide alternatives to a god hypothesis in any situation does not mean god somehow wins by default... you might as well just assert the answer to be “science” without any further explanation or evidence, because that’s what the apologist just did with “god”.
@@pidayrocks2235 "because Atheism is not based on science, it is based on reason"
This may be so for your flavor of atheism. As I read these comments, I do not see much reasoning. A bit, here and there, makes it worth the trouble to look for the better arguments.
You can reason your way out of obvious fallacy; I suspect it is impossible to reason your way to TRUTH, because you have no mechanism by which to know when you have found it.
@@thomasmaughan4798 How people in a comment section defend their ideology is independent of the basis or origin for the ideology (not to mention people are often bad at internalizing how they derived their beliefs, and even worse at communicating what little they have internalized) - the point remains that atheism is simply the rejection of theism and the reason to reject theism is that it has not met it’s burden of proof. No science is required to determine that because even if we knew nothing about how the world worked, to accept god as an answer would be irrational considering it’s an unfalsifiable proposition (with most classical god definitions) and just generally lacks verifiable empirical evidence. As far as reasoning your way to this idea of “absolute truth”, you’re correct... there is no mechanism to determine it and religious people have no basis for thinking they have access to it through old books. Science and reason are methods that allow for increasing levels of CONFIDENCE in the MODELS we use to view the world... being reasonable means accepting the models that have passed these rigorous processes because they have the best supporting evidence and are typically being corroborated constantly across many different disciplines. I’m certainly of the position that we cannot be “absolutely” sure of anything (all the way down to the problem of hard solipsism)... but if we go with the most scientifically and logically supported models, we can MAXIMIZE our confidence that our answers comport with reality. Dealing with absolutes is entirely unnecessary and something primarily religious people bring up to obfuscate the true nature of what it means to “know” something. Outside of religious conflict, though, most people tend to agree with regards to accepting the best scientific models and utilizing reason as opposed to non-reason (i.e. faith)... they just cannot overcome the emotional ties to religion forged, in many cases, through childhood indoctrination and the desire to maximize their confidence in finding truths suddenly dwindles with this particular topic while cognitive dissonance takes over.
@@pidayrocks2235 "How people in a comment section defend their ideology is independent of the basis or origin for the ideology"
That seems unlikely. How exactly I have knowledge of God makes a HUGE difference in how I defend my belief.
"atheism is simply the rejection of theism"
So all we need is to define "theism"!
"reason to reject theism is that it has not met it’s burden of proof."
The same reason exist for the rejection of atheism.
"No science is required to determine that because even if we knew nothing about how the world worked, to accept god as an answer would be irrational considering it’s an unfalsifiable proposition"
God is not an answer to most questions. You seem to mischaracterize theism. Science embraces the "big bang" but that also seems unfalsifiable.
"Science and reason are methods that allow for increasing levels of CONFIDENCE in the MODELS we use to view the world."
That's a remarkably effective way to describe science.
"but if we go with the most scientifically and logically supported models, we can MAXIMIZE our confidence that our answers comport with reality."
Indeed, and I embrace pretty much anything remotely scientific. I render unto science that which is scientific, and unto god that which is godly.
"most people tend to agree with regards to accepting the best scientific models and utilizing reason as opposed to non-reason (i.e. faith)."
You misrepresent faith. There is no definition of faith (that I know) that involves a complete absence of evidence and reason. Rather, faith is extrapolating from observations and imagining or hoping for things such as "god" based on that evidence. An example is the presence of a willow tree in the desert in a dry riverbed; the presence of it is a sign of potential water. One hopes for the water, one is willing to dig in the sand for the water, there might not be water at that exact place or at that moment. But the tree is a sign.
"they just cannot overcome the emotional ties to religion forged, in many cases, through childhood indoctrination"
I suppose that describes the situation for many people; with atheists being those who did overcome childhood indoctrination. However, I was raised by an atheist and thus my journey is almost exactly opposite.
Knowing a thing changes the calculus.
Well. Now I want to go to a Christian college and pose as a Christian. Shouldn’t be too hard since I was one for almost 2 decades and also posed as one before admitting I didn’t believe.
Well said. 🤣
As someone who was never a Christian, I'm pretty sure I'd also be able to fake it convincingly.
i could fake it. . .and their vow of chastity too.
@@filthymcnasty7783
I fake that all the time. 🤣
It’s kinda like stolen valor only not really. Lolz
I’m basically an atheist. Although, more accurately I’d say that I think “god” is a term with no agreed upon nonambiguous definition. But, I’ve never received much hate for being an atheist. Except for on the internet I definitely have. But not irl. Although I also don’t typically bring it up if no one asks, and I almost never do get asked by anyone if I believe in any god or am religious. And I don’t think most people would care much around where I live.
It would be an awful lot more helpful to those students to invite an actual atheist to talk about their beliefs without deliberately or subconsciously undermine his own point.
Christian apologetics is a really weird thing. Imagine a college having a science apologetics class or a health apologetics class.
The first time I heard the term, I thought, "That is something I never want to be called." If you have to apologize for something, it's bad.
@@kirstencorby8465 That’s not what apologetics means. It comes from the greek word meaning ‘speak in one’s own defence’, and means ‘constituting a formal defence or justification of a theory or doctrine’.
Exactly! I've often asked the question, do you "believe" in mathematics? What an absurd question. If there are any gods, and they want humans to know about them, wouldn't it be clearly apparently to all?
YES.
Why would a Christian college have apologetics lectures? What are they being taught in this class - How to confidently argue in favour of the Christian position regardless of truth?
This reminds me of the time I went to service where the preacher talked about athiest views and brought up a bunch of things that we don't (we come from rocks, we just want to sin, evolution is false bc abiogenesis) and when I talked to him after about how athiests don't think that way and he said "I know" and that's when I stopped going to service
Two sentences. He admitted to be aware of the exposure to bullshit and his will to take it as truth in two sentences
@@muchotexto4248 It's one sentence and two words
Remember the goal of many of these things is to make money. Taking advantage of one’s religion is one of the many services out there people do. Saying stuff like that makes it much easier to keep them coming back because they will refuse to speak with atheists.
You helped me feel confident being a non theistic agnostic. I’ve only seen a few of your videos but cheers to your incredibly unique insight and knowledge of the unknown. Subscribed.
being a non-theist and being an a-theist are the same thing (the "a" in front of "theist" is a negation, just as "non").
I really appreciate how you provide empathetic and compassionate criticism here.
Typical, a theist self-gratifies himself about how good he acted as an Atheist and still doesn't realise how badly he failed at it... 🤦♂️💥
I thought he was pretty good actually. He actually made a rational person state out loud that they don't believe in a christian god. If that didn't make McDowell's Grinch mind grow 3x more critical, I don't know what would.
@@onedaya_martian1238 I haven't gotten to that part yet tbh, I'm still only halfway through the video, but from what I've seen upto now he's been blatantly dishonest at least twice and used word salad at least once, not to mention that no Atheist worth their salt in debating apologists would never have done any of that or used any of the arguments he's used so for now I'm relatively unimpressed 🙃
That is technically pride, one of the seven deadly sins...
How many would even try? Credit where credit is due. At least there was an effort.
@@DoctaOsiris To say that no atheist would do what he did or say the things he said is 100% dishonest. You can't make claims for all atheists. We aren't all intellectually superior to the rest of the world and plenty of atheists don't know what they're talking about when they engage in debate. This guy at least gave it a go, which is far more than can be said of most hyper closed-minded Christians, or representatives of other religions. He wasn't perfect. He's a Christian, so he does have a bias. And he's not an atheist, so he doesn't exactly believe the things he's talking about... which means it's difficult for him to "honestly" represent them. But he is trying to be fair. The fact that he's a Christian means he's simply unable to adequately serve the true atheist perspective. But for a Christian, he did a pretty reasonable job... something I could have sat through and at least not been constantly rolling my eyes. I might have cringed once or twice. But that's way better than listening to him talk about Christianity.
I like this saying I heard - "God is not an answer to any question. God is just another question masquerading as an answer"
That's a great one!
They define "God" as "the answer" and that answer is "shut up!".
So then, what created god?
Gotta commend Sean for making the case for empathy and compassion at the end. I stopped believing over 20 years ago as a young teenager and still havent told some of my family. Its just not worth the trouble.
I did my sacraments, got married in a church, kids (1 and 3 years old currently) baptised etc because my family, and especially father in law, would not approve otherwise. But im certainly not going to raise my kids as Christians. So im quickly approaching a point in life where im going to have to make my beliefs known and really not looking forward to it.
Unfortunately, not telling people when you are younger can cause problems in later life as you are finding out.
I would gradually let your family know or maybe find a family activity that takes place on a Sunday and use that as cover. I live in the UK are there are lots of walking groups that meet on a Sunday, maybe you could try something like that?