@@harrisonofcolorado8886 That was a, admittedly somewhat anachronistic, joke; with these things being unreliable they will spend a lot of time in depos, and thus on turntables.
As to why Spain has a wider gauge, I believe this was because Spanish engineers thought having a wider gauge would allow for a larger boiler for steam trains so they could climb steeper grades.
To be fair the covid pandemic serious disrupted logistics/construction worldwide. In context with this video, CAF also a Spanish railway stock builder was also affected. They had the contract to build the new EMU regional sprinter trains for the Dutch National Railways . The firts for testing and shakedown were deliverd in 2018, and the entire class (206 units) should have been operational in 2020. Due to the covid pandemic the last unit could only be deliverd in 2023. So the 4 years "delay" of the Avrils is not so much the problem but the lacking test and shakedown test before mass production.
in india railways is mostly standardised under IBG, indian broad gauge. the metro the HSR wont ever share lines with Indian Railways, and they are separate authorities
Spaniard here, I have ridden the Avril repeatedly in the last two months. The train is really not good. In fact, Talgo is already working on V.2, and Renfe is totally justified in suing them. Just a few points: The seats are not less comfortable than, say, Hitachi's HSTs in the UK. The shaking is much worse at low speeds, It gets much better as the train gains speed, not to say that the ride is smooth at all. There is also quite a bit of noise involved, which I'm not sure OM mentioned. Taking over two hours to pull the broken train which was a few kms from the station is not Talgo 's fault, not even Renfe's, but ADIF 's. Also, maybe mention that the virus thing hit the world precisely during the development period of this train? That probably didn't help, even if it is no excuse... As for the rail gauge, I'm sure you are aware of the historical and topographical reasons? Btw, good video, although I'm not sure if I found the tone humorous or slightly condescending...
The obvious problem is that this is the cheapest train Renfe could buy. It was meant to be a low-cost train, obviously, but somehow Renfe thought they could run on AVE service as well. Beside being a model that tried so hard to decrease its cost from every aspect possible, it is the first time Talgo makes a powered train on their own. Since it's beginning in the 1940's Talgo only made coaches that would be pulled by locomotives; even the previous high-speed "duck" and "duckies" had locomotives manufactured with the help of Bombardier for the traction system. So Talgo started a journey into an unknown territory for them. Didn't turn out well. The fact that the percentage of Spanish GDP destined to rail infrastructure maintenance during the last years has decreased does not help either.
Renfe needs the money from northern routes, and they have no competitors so they can have a low cost train operating with normal prices. This is all about
Revolutionary gauge changing system? Talgo has used that for years, there used to be loco-hauled stock that ran to Paris and Switzerland that changed gauge at the border
@@james.carty.9043 This NOT TRUTH.. Is Sociedad Anonima de Trenes Vertebrados who was manufactred this train. Not Talgo. The Train Vertebrado is another invention of Alejandro Goicoechea the Talgo's inventor
10:09 I don't think the shaking issue can be resolved. All Talgo trains I've ever been on have had extremely rough rides, and I've used quite a lot across the world by now. It's an issue caused by the ridiculous wheel layout, and the solution is to order trains with bogies. 🤨
@@SuperalbsTravels pues el problema de los temblores se da en los trenes de rodadura desplazable, en los trenes de ancho fijo es casi imperceptible sentir vibraciones, lo que dices de los demás modelos Talgo no es cierto, los de Arabia Saudí funcionan de forma fenomenal. Hay que informarse un poco mejor.
If your willing to, I’m wondering if you would cover another boiler explosion. I found this unique as involved not only New York Central’s 20th Century Limited, but also one the ten streamlined Dreyfuss Hudson’s. The accident happened on September 7, 1943, and the Century was being pulled New York Central #5450, the first of the ten streamliners. As the train passed through Canastota, New York, the boiler exploded and the train derailed. Three crewman on board were killed and 25 passengers were injured. I couldn’t really find more information about this explosion, so that description is all I got.
El nuevo tren de Talgo es excelente como todos los trenes de Talgo. Estos trenes adaptan el giro de sus ejes de forma que las ruedas permanecen siempre tangentes a la via, y los ejes perpendiculares. Esto elimina la tendencia al descarrilamiento de los ejes tradicionales y de los bogies, y permite que los vagones sean mucho más ligeros manteniendo un paso por curva de alta velocidad con completa seguridad. Además, son trenes extremadamente bajos, lo que disminuye el riesgo de vuelco y mejora su velocidad, aparte de ofrecer una accesibilidad sin rival, en la que no hay que subir ni un solo escalón para acceder al tren. Su mayor ligereza permite remontar las subidas y acelerar con mayor facilidad, lo que permite una mayor velocidad media. El confort de los trenes Talgo es excelente, igual o superior al resto de trenes. Esto es algo que el fabricante Talgo mide CIENTÍFICAMENTE y que tiene muy estudiado. Yo personalmente he comprobado muchas veces cómo estos trenes a velocidades por debajo de 200 kmh PARECE QUE ESTÁN PARADOS, porque no se nota nada. Tampoco he tenido nunca ninguna queja sobre los asientos, que siempre me han parecido perfectamente cómodos, y siempre he viajado muy a gusto en ellos y los viajes se me han hecho cortos. Trenes como los Iryo (Frecciarossa ETR 1000) son más ruidosos y tienen igual o más vibraciones. Las vibraciones dependen mucho de las vías y poco de los trenes. El uso de ejes simples y no dobles no aumenta el ruido ni las vibraciones sino que LAS DISMINUYE al haber MENOS RUEDAS PRODUCIENDO VIBRACIONES. LO CIENTÍFICO ES COMPARAR LOS TRENES CIRCULANDO POR LAS MISMAS VÍAS Y A LA MISMA VELOCIDAD Y CON LA MISMA CARGA, porque todo eso afecta a las vibraciones. Comparar trenes arbitrariamente, en líneas diferentes, en trazados diferentes y en vías diferentes, y sin hacer ninguna medición científica es totalmente arbitrario y ridículo. Eso es totalmente SUBJETIVO y NO CIENTÍFICO.
Well, Germans ICE4 has after more than 5 years still a lot of issues with reliability. It happens so often, when they have to be replaced by an older ICE1, that have actually been replaced by ICE4 already. It also happend a couple of times in own rides, that they had to turn arround the train cause the driver cabine wasn't functioned. That cursed a lot of delays. And the High Speed Desiro HC (190km/h) for Nürnberg - Erfurt/Sonneberg is shaking as well. Talgo's trains are supposed to be very high quality in curse of their unique technology, so I hope the issues to be solved soon, for they are just childhood diseases that isn't much unusual by new trains. Just give it time and patience. (Besides, the train's shaking can also be an issue cursed of the tracks, when they are not that much straight..)
Siemens reliability certainly isn't the best but the ICE 4 mostly stays out of service because of maintenance backlogs. Sure they got a few bad welding joints, but they found them in QC. Better late than after entering service. The big elephant in the room is the different technology talgo uses. While most trains use standard or Jacob's bogies, Talgo uses single axles on their short cars. They just can't be as comfortable, physically impossible. But they have the benefit of allowing completely low floor, very wide interiors. And it makes variable track gauges easily possible. All together I can't really see the benefit for German railways, the ICE L won't bring the necessary comfort for German tracks.
@@alfredvondrachstedt7129 I know all about Talgos technology, and it's supposed to run very quietly with very good smoothness. And it's of high quality, for it's proved out of generations. And yes, the most trains are using Jacobs boggies, so Talgo seems to be the last european company, that still makes something own. Once Talgo Avril has been treated all the current issues, it's going to have the quality of the rest of the fleet. I also expect the ICE L to have a quality in the level of ICE3neo. Those are GREAT trains! I just don't find this video much objective, for it's just based on informations of someone else and not even of own experiences.
Now I'm afraid in Germany we also get Talgo trains (ICE L) and the trains already have problems with approval for Germany and if the software problems remain we'll have the same crap
I’m sorry but like ? Why do you think Spain should change its gauge to standard??? For so many years Spain had Iberian gauge only so changing it all to standard would be both expensive and stupid since the Iberian gauge is quite actually
The shaking issue is probobly a effect of hounting oscilations that is something that is often a issue with trains that suposen to go on both normal amd high speed rail. The previus train they used simply solved this by going slower.
Meanwhile the once despised and forsaken Fyra trainsets are running pretty much fine on high-speed services in northern Italy, and enjoying their cold but tasty dose of revenge
@@Cepia120 Well I guess what Ansaldo Breda produced before they went bancrupt was worse.... Like the HST's they produced for Belgium and the Netherlands in the 2010's I think.
@@ALCO-C855-fan True, in fact Talgo nowadays reminds me of the last days of AnsaldoBreda. Making subpar trains and ruining their lifelong reputation, and looking for a foreign buyer to end their misery, like Hitachi did with AB. In the case of Talgo, Czech and Hungarian manufacturers are currently negotiating with Talgo to buy the company.
Well... if a trainset is delayed that much, it tend to be a bad sign. This reminds med of the history of Switzerlands RABe 502... they were delayed for years and were supposed to become the new flagship train of Switzerland, but are now heavily criticized.
Out of curiosity, which high speed train (or high-speed train system) do you think is worse? Is it the Spanish Talgo AVRL, or the various high-speed trains in China? Also, what would you think if we built a very sleek, very heavily streamlined steam locomotive that travelled at speeds exceeding 200 mph?
China without a doubt! Sofar only a German ICE (mechanical wheeldesign failure) and Spanish Alvia (driver error) highspeedtrain had a crasch were passengers lost their lives. The French (terrorism) and Japanese (earthquake) had sofar only derailments what led to injured passengers. As China goes news about accidents is censored due to widespread corruption. falsifying documents and inferiour material/parts does tamper with safety. When new build road/rail bridges colapse and brand new electric public transport buses spontanious combust on route its logical to assume that corruption is also present in the Chinese high speed railsector.
the problem will be finding information about the Chinese railway network, as in the case of the firefighters and their fire-fighting system, if you go to see the videos you see their firefighters are better than the Americans, but if you go to see who gives the real information about that nation you discover that the hoses are not connected to the water network ditto with the hydrants, the firefighters to turn off a car took more than 20 minutes just to bring the hose up to pressure
the problem will be finding information about their national railway network, as in the case of the firefighters and their fire-fighting system, if you go to see the videos you see their firefighters are better than the Americans, but if you go to see who gives the real information about that nation you discover that the hoses are not connected to the water network ditto with the hydrants, the firefighters to turn off a car took more than 20 minutes just to bring the hose up to pressure (Rewrite because the platform doesn't like constructive criticism)
This rolling stock probably have the most complain intern of high speed train rolling stock this day, let's be honest, if your high speed train have bumpy ride, you need to be concerned regardless how safe you say. Because people need comfort and expect that comfort on high speed train.
Actually, the Spanish got the gauge "thing" very, very well. The different gauge was a deliberate choice for national security. Remember that for much of the last century Spain was a dictatorship.
Ahhhh, that makes sense. I also read the only reason they have standard at all is just for the high speed line so they can link up with France's network without issue.
What utter nonsense. Spain built its railway networks mostly during the mid-19th century, when it was lead by a liberal and progressive Queen Isabella II. It was chosen as 6 pie, pie being a unit in the now long discarded Spanish measuring units. Nothing to do with invasions nor dictatorships. The only nation that ever invaded unified Spain is Napoleonic France, and only very reluctantly, and it ended in catastrophe.
The same thing can be said with the Soviet Union. They have a different gauge, but a large part of that is based on their history of being constantly being invaded.
@@moosecat That’s also utter rubbish. The Soviets inherited the railway system from the Russian empire, whom again selected their own gauge in the 19th century to fit their own units of measurement. Although it is true that the Soviets considered slowly converting to standard gauge, but rejected it partly out of considerations of defence.
There was something similar happening in Poland last year, where it was discovered that the train manufacturer deliberately was messing up with train software so the trains were breaking at predefined time intervals. Obviously that given train manufacturer was the only one able to fix the issues. All this was discovered by a group of hackers employed by a train repair company...
Honestly, it does seem like incentives were not aligned between RENFE and Talgo on this, and that's why these trains have done so poorly. RENFE wanted what was meant to be an engineering marvel (light, gauge changing, high capacity) , but were not willing to pay that much for it, while Talgo wanted to build trains, and so lied about the timetable and quality of the build so they could get the contracts and still maintains a profit. Talgo has always had ride quality issues, but this train is just so much worse in so many ways, and hopefully these issues can be fixed shortly.
Well, we had the V250 Fyra in the Netherlands and Belgium, withdrawn and sent back to the manufacturer in Italy even before the initial test period was ended. The German ICE-TD, or class 605 a diesel powered HST which had such poor reliability that it was withdrawn after only 15 years without considering a mid life reconstruction. So if the problems with the Avril (which means April in Spanish) get solved and they give good service after that I would still consider them not as the worst trains. Time has to tell.
Technically not fully true about the ICE-TD, DSB (Danish state railways) had leased them for their Copenhagen - Hamburg route for a couple of years. When that lease was nearing it's end, the 605's were in dire need of a renovation where DB offered to sell the trainsets cheaply to DSB and let them pay for the renovations if they wanted to keep them. DSB declined the offer and as you sa yourself, they got scrapped.
@@albertthefarmer6023 I wasn't entirely up to date about the offer to DSB but DB wanted to get rid of them and not renovate them for their own use. So your info is a good addition to what I wrote.
@@Tom-Lahaye It's totally understandable why you weren't fully up to date as most information about the offer is in Danish, it was a shame though, I would have loved to see them stay with DSB as the one set that actually got DSBs own colors looked so good.
Spain does have a standardized gauge, its its Iberian wide gauge. It’s the high speed lines that are built to the international standard gauge. It’s an engineering thing, high speed rail built to Iberian gauge would have cost extra to do. It’s not a “we’re stupid” thing, it’s a “we adopted a standard before everyone else”. Kind of like how the Americas having 120v power at the outlets vs other parts of the world using 240. Or railways that have 3 kv DC overhead power vs 25 kv (power grid Hz) AC power. Places picked standards for these things before the world settled. The network is pretty standardized outside of that. Ireland also has a wide gauge too and no one complains about it.
the more interesting question for me is. how similar is this train to the talgo 230, that will debut as ICE-L in germany. sure, no gauge changing mechanism, but the cars look rather similar. however, the ICE-L isn't meant to go that fast. and some problems will crop up with higher speeds.
@@robertheinrich2994 There‘s very little similarity other than the fact that both trains feature Talgo‘s patented wheel set arrangement. The Avril‘s carbodies are much wider than those of the ICE L, the Avril features two power cars whereas the ICE L will be Loco-hauled and the ICE L forgoes the need for passive titlting which the Avril requires to stay within loading gauge. The ICE L is essentially a somewhat updated version of regular Talgo IC cars which have been in service for decades and never really faced any major issues or complaints.
If you have a power car at each end and no powered cars inbetween it is not an EMU. The latest Seimens HS sets, on the Eurosttar service, are EMU's. No power cars but with traction motors distributed through the train's consist.
Well, Talgos have always be known to be a little bangs & bonkers , because the sets don't use trucks. Not even axles. They use independent wheels. But these Avlos take the case a bit further, since their suspension differs from previous generstions. I don't see me riding on one in jointed rail. As for the gauge changing system, it really is ingenious, and very simple, but it's older than you think; it was first used in service in 1969. The gauge thing was really a mix of stubbornness toghether with fears of invasion, wich in 1848 were still very fresh in Spaniards minds because of french invasions by Napoleon's srmy at the beginning of the Century. Neighbours Portugal and France tried to convince them to adopt Europe's standard gauge, but Spain was adamant... Untill 1992.
Spain has a very big problem on high speed lines, the operator renfe just spent a lot of money on ave lines and the neg talgo avri. peapole are saying that the alvia s130 is fucking better than the avril thats the level of hate the new train is getting.
I think it’s one of ur videos where a town wanted to redevelop a railway round house where a collection was being held so they scrap the lot Carnt find it but on the same subject you could do a video about the railway round house at broadmedow Australia
They will always be awful. They will fight in court for years to avoid paying for upgrades, these will be relegated to the far edges of rte network and eventually make an unceremonious retirement (unofficial)
The Avril is meant to be an improvement over the earlier Talgo 102/112 series, so it puzzles me that they ride more roughly than those. It looks like the suspension needs to be redesigned. (That reminds me of the TGV Sud-Est which was first delivered with coil springs; the comfort was inadequate so a new pneumatic suspension was designed and all the units rebuilt. It can be done.) What I don't get (and they're probably currently still figuring it out) is what caused the comfort to get this much worse. Talgo is in a bit of a problem now, they also landed important contracts for Germany and Denmark about 230 km/h push/pull trains with level boarding from 760 mm platforms. But those are delayed by years. The originally planned introduction into service was 2023, now end of 2025 is more likely and even that is not guaranteed. Reportedly the brakes aren't as powerful as planned, perhaps something will need to be redesigned and modified before they can go into service. Talgo doesn't have the manufacturing capabilities for high quality production in large series. Traditionally they have built smaller series of trains and kept the company going with maintenance contracts, operating numerous workshops in different places. Remarkably they have exported trains to exotic countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Saudi-Arabia. And now there's a takeover thriller. A Hungarian consortium offers to take over the Talgo company (which used to be a family business and more recently is mostly held by investment funds), the Spanish government suspects the Russians to be behind it, Stadler was rumoured to bid too but nothing seems to have come out of it, Škoda has placed another bid. According to some Spanish politicians combining the company with the other Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF would be best but it's unclear where the capital for that would come from. And do I see a smiling Chinese in the background just waiting for the right moment to strike? Talgo has done a number of remarkable inventions. It would be bad if the problems with the Avril breaks their neck.
There's trains built in China for NSW Australia that have been sitting since 2019 as they have that many faults and safety issues the union banned them. And yet the government who owns them haven't fixed them either.
They're pretty bad, but they're still better than some of the ones in operation in the UK. :/ But yeah, they're absolutely the worst high-speed trains in Spain right now. Iryo's Frecciarossi put them to shame. Those are such nice trains.
i dont speak spanish ether but sometimes google translate be u best frend ore lucky as i am most of my spanish frends who are train spotters also like me speaks withoud problems english and i am from netherlands i subscribed u chanal cheers from henri from netherlands i like the video also so thumbs up
Well, the Fyras were (and still are) absolute crap, losing pieces while running LOL That said, isn't the shaking probably caused by the bogies/suspensions? I mean, the bogies are intended to be variable, so there are different moving parts. I would say that the suspension system is not tuned properly for the bogies. I would say that the
They have to be really bad to be that bad... the final report of those things makes trully amazing reading. Also the IC4 and IC2 for DSB, one of which Ansaldo Breda gave to Col. Gadaffi as a birthday present, and tried to bill DSB for. Ain't many people in the rail inductry who will miss Ansaldo - allegedly there was one class of italian MOW vehicles they built that were sent straight from the factory gate for scrapping, they were so bad.
The Fyra have since been purchased by Italian national operator Trenitalia, and after a refurbrishment process they're working on high speed services in northern Italy, without many issues as far as I know. I've seen then many times since they used to operate on the line that runs through my hometown, but I never had a chance to use them: I've heard that they're not amazing but do their job fine, after all they were built extremely on the cheap since the beginning. Maybe they just needed someone to believe in them and make them feel loved for what they truly are. Jokes aside, AnsaldoBreda used to design some terrible products (but in fairness some nice one as well, like the automated metros), but I grew up in Italy in the early 2000s, I remember who was in power back then and they were definetly "interesting" times to live in. Other governments had all the right reasons not to trust the Italian one for anything. Ultimately AnsaldoBreda was sold to Hitachi and their products have got considerably better on average since then.
@@LucaPasini2 It’s a shame the V 250 wasn’t successful because the Dutch railways where all blamed for buying such trains even delaying a faster connection towards Brussels we are like 10 years later and the ICNG-B aren’t even running yet just imagine if that whole Fyra idea was a success maybe the Dutch railways would’ve actually pulled off a successful and relatively positive perspective on the whole Fyra name
and adding it on top the Fyra branding was pretty good and well done in a retrospective it’s just a shame the sets what where the flagship of the whole brand failed
@@rubentreingames6466 Some people on Italian train-related forums say that the Dutch wanted a completely custom-designed trainset for too little money and too quickly. Instead of going for an established platform they wanted to have a say in too many aspects of the project long into its development, and at the same time chose the lowest bidder. When the trains appeared to have so many flaws they were quick to blame them on Italian sloppyness and endemic corruption (which was definetly there, don't get me wrong). Some even say that they deliberately undermined the Fyra project because they started to fear it would have been unprofitable, and the fact that even today there still isn't a comparable service could serve as a proof. AnsaldoBreda in the same years built the ETR400 and ETR500 that are the backbone of the Italian high-speed network, so they proved they can built good trains if they want, and the Fyra (now called ETR700), even if now they work, still look cheap and inferior compared to those.
The Talgo Avril has been emm a headache since its introdcution. There are many resions why it end up that way. The political partty that orderd these train (PP) ordern then to be as cheep as humanly posible. To much inovation into 1 train this train has wider coaches than the usual allowing then to have 3+2 it has to be able to run to France and can change gauge (on some sets). Mistake of the Renfe directors at the time to add the Culta seat desing from the German manufacter Kiel (which are awfull).
Could these trains be sold to india ( with appropriate modifications)if they do not perform well in spain , seeing as how the former operates their trains on a near identical & intercompatible track gauge to the latter🤔🤔🤔
@@HistoryintheDarkthe TALGO system was invented in the 1940s and uses independent wheel sets as opposed to a pair of wheels connected by an axle. Whilst this introduces extra complexity as each wheel needs to ve steered to allow smooth transition into and out of curves. The advantage is that the wheels run at the right speed alltge time without needing to move laterally on curves. Each intermediate coach has one end with wheels whilst the other end is carried on the next coach (the current S-Togtrains in Copenhagen use a simikar arrangement but not the TALGO system and it gives a ride quality as good as the previous generation of S-Tog trains). It sounds to me as if the mechanism that steers the wheel is not operating as intended.
Funnily enough, the TALGO system usually has a pretty good reputation for ride quality, so something is wrong here that's traducing TALGO's (usually) good name. Shared bogies have been used on carriages before, the LNER in the UK had express shared bogies sets from the mid 30's that had a pretty good reputation for riding quality. So... it's not the TALGO system itself, that's fine, but somebody really goofed when it came to assembling these particular TALGO wheelsets.
@robertwilloughby8050 the extra mass being carried by each wheel set is beneficial in terms of ride quality, but you need to get the suspension right. It's one of the reasons the APT had a poor ride quality, the suspension wasn't properly tuned.
Spain went for the broad gauge back in the infantcy of railways. Portugal had to adopt the same gauge to allow through running between Lisbon and Madrid back in the 1850s. Often overlooked is that alot more than goos and passengers ride the rails. Political and economic influence also travels by rail. The choice of gauge can make or break a county’s economic standing. This is why to this day Spain has a sickly economy.
@@HistoryintheDark Possible, but same country and high speed + your railway accident list could need an update. I as well as many otheres I'm shure would be happy to hear your thoughts about it now where you already talk about Spain and desasters on wheels.
@@AndreiTupolev I still think Darkness needs to cover this too. His accident list desperately needs an update despite it having already many great videos in it.
Here in the UK, we have Spanish built trains by CAF (Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles). They are also known by railway enthusiasts as Cr*p as F*ck or Computer Aided Failure. Spanish trains whether built for thier own market or others seem to have one thing in common...very uncomfortable seats!
CAF trains tend to be quite good outside the UK (Northern spain, RoI, etc). The issue is that the UK government sucks and they don't pay for high quality seats etc.
Spain's Renfe don't pay damages to accident victims at all. Even Amtrak ditched the talgo with the horizon before the venture cars. But, yeah don't ride Spain's Railroad network, in accidents with Renfe, you loose everything, no reparations from Renfe for damages. Renfe is sinister.
I hear that Spain’s rail network (Renfe) in general, just sucks. I read some reviews, and they say that their trains are “stinky” and “old”. I don’t think these sets are gonna help…
People who ride these trains are gonna be in two types of Spain. One of them is without the S.
And the other without the A?
@@hhs_leviathan No, the other one is the full 'Spain'. The people will be in Spain in 2 ways. One is just Spain, the other is Spain without the S.
@@harrisonofcolorado8886
That was a, admittedly somewhat anachronistic, joke; with these things being unreliable they will spend a lot of time in depos, and thus on turntables.
@@harrisonofcolorado8886Spain with the S = pain
As someone who was forced to be on this train for 4 FUCKING HOURS. i can confirm my ass was definently in S-Pain
Denmarks rolling IC4: Am I a joke to you?
Dutch Fyra v250: Hold my Heineken
True the Avril compared to those trains is a child play
Alstom Acela II: you called.
@@skylineXpert dont worry... Talgo 230 (Talgo Avril Sister train....) will soon be with DSB... ;-)
As to why Spain has a wider gauge, I believe this was because Spanish engineers thought having a wider gauge would allow for a larger boiler for steam trains so they could climb steeper grades.
They also wanted to make it harder for France to invade. xD
It was due to the montainous orography. It was meant more more stable trains.
To be fair the covid pandemic serious disrupted logistics/construction worldwide.
In context with this video, CAF also a Spanish railway stock builder was also affected.
They had the contract to build the new EMU regional sprinter trains for the Dutch National Railways .
The firts for testing and shakedown were deliverd in 2018, and the entire class (206 units) should have been operational in 2020.
Due to the covid pandemic the last unit could only be deliverd in 2023.
So the 4 years "delay" of the Avrils is not so much the problem but the lacking test and shakedown test before mass production.
Spain, Australia, and Gauge Standardization.
Should we tell him about India?
@@sirrliv W I D E T R A I N S
@@harrisonofcolorado8886 Wide AND Narrow. They got both!
@@sirrliv And standard gauge metro and high speed.
Better not. He's got enough on his plate before we tell him British Railways is being resurrected...
in india railways is mostly standardised under IBG, indian broad gauge. the metro the HSR wont ever share lines with Indian Railways, and they are separate authorities
Spaniard here, I have ridden the Avril repeatedly in the last two months. The train is really not good. In fact, Talgo is already working on V.2, and Renfe is totally justified in suing them.
Just a few points:
The seats are not less comfortable than, say, Hitachi's HSTs in the UK.
The shaking is much worse at low speeds, It gets much better as the train gains speed, not to say that the ride is smooth at all. There is also quite a bit of noise involved, which I'm not sure OM mentioned.
Taking over two hours to pull the broken train which was a few kms from the station is not Talgo 's fault, not even Renfe's, but ADIF 's.
Also, maybe mention that the virus thing hit the world precisely during the development period of this train? That probably didn't help, even if it is no excuse...
As for the rail gauge, I'm sure you are aware of the historical and topographical reasons?
Btw, good video, although I'm not sure if I found the tone humorous or slightly condescending...
The Pacer at least has the excuse of being dirt cheap.
😂😂
We owe the pace an apology, at least it fulfills it purpose.
The obvious problem is that this is the cheapest train Renfe could buy. It was meant to be a low-cost train, obviously, but somehow Renfe thought they could run on AVE service as well. Beside being a model that tried so hard to decrease its cost from every aspect possible, it is the first time Talgo makes a powered train on their own. Since it's beginning in the 1940's Talgo only made coaches that would be pulled by locomotives; even the previous high-speed "duck" and "duckies" had locomotives manufactured with the help of Bombardier for the traction system. So Talgo started a journey into an unknown territory for them. Didn't turn out well. The fact that the percentage of Spanish GDP destined to rail infrastructure maintenance during the last years has decreased does not help either.
Renfe needs the money from northern routes, and they have no competitors so they can have a low cost train operating with normal prices. This is all about
Revolutionary gauge changing system? Talgo has used that for years, there used to be loco-hauled stock that ran to Paris and Switzerland that changed gauge at the border
Fun fact Talgo built a supposedly high speed train in the 1950s with pneumatic tires.
@@james.carty.9043
This NOT TRUTH..
Is Sociedad Anonima de Trenes Vertebrados who was manufactred this train. Not Talgo. The Train Vertebrado is another invention of Alejandro Goicoechea the Talgo's inventor
@@manuel2106 talgo pendular
Brilliant video and many thanks for the kind words! Yes I can confirm I'm British lol, glad my video was of use for making yours! 😁
10:09 I don't think the shaking issue can be resolved. All Talgo trains I've ever been on have had extremely rough rides, and I've used quite a lot across the world by now. It's an issue caused by the ridiculous wheel layout, and the solution is to order trains with bogies. 🤨
@@SuperalbsTravels pues el problema de los temblores se da en los trenes de rodadura desplazable, en los trenes de ancho fijo es casi imperceptible sentir vibraciones, lo que dices de los demás modelos Talgo no es cierto, los de Arabia Saudí funcionan de forma fenomenal. Hay que informarse un poco mejor.
I've been on plenty of different types of Talgo. They all ride poorly. 😅
@@SuperalbsTravels no mientas 🤔
@@JonathanRodriguez-gq7xc It's true, within Spain, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Bosnia. They are all very rough!
If your willing to, I’m wondering if you would cover another boiler explosion. I found this unique as involved not only New York Central’s 20th Century Limited, but also one the ten streamlined Dreyfuss Hudson’s. The accident happened on September 7, 1943, and the Century was being pulled New York Central #5450, the first of the ten streamliners. As the train passed through Canastota, New York, the boiler exploded and the train derailed. Three crewman on board were killed and 25 passengers were injured. I couldn’t really find more information about this explosion, so that description is all I got.
El nuevo tren de Talgo es excelente como todos los trenes de Talgo.
Estos trenes adaptan el giro de sus ejes de forma que las ruedas permanecen siempre tangentes a la via, y los ejes perpendiculares. Esto elimina la tendencia al descarrilamiento de los ejes tradicionales y de los bogies, y permite que los vagones sean mucho más ligeros manteniendo un paso por curva de alta velocidad con completa seguridad.
Además, son trenes extremadamente bajos, lo que disminuye el riesgo de vuelco y mejora su velocidad, aparte de ofrecer una accesibilidad sin rival, en la que no hay que subir ni un solo escalón para acceder al tren.
Su mayor ligereza permite remontar las subidas y acelerar con mayor facilidad, lo que permite una mayor velocidad media.
El confort de los trenes Talgo es excelente, igual o superior al resto de trenes. Esto es algo que el fabricante Talgo mide CIENTÍFICAMENTE y que tiene muy estudiado.
Yo personalmente he comprobado muchas veces cómo estos trenes a velocidades por debajo de 200 kmh PARECE QUE ESTÁN PARADOS, porque no se nota nada.
Tampoco he tenido nunca ninguna queja sobre los asientos, que siempre me han parecido perfectamente cómodos, y siempre he viajado muy a gusto en ellos y los viajes se me han hecho cortos.
Trenes como los Iryo (Frecciarossa ETR 1000) son más ruidosos y tienen igual o más vibraciones. Las vibraciones dependen mucho de las vías y poco de los trenes.
El uso de ejes simples y no dobles no aumenta el ruido ni las vibraciones sino que LAS DISMINUYE al haber MENOS RUEDAS PRODUCIENDO VIBRACIONES.
LO CIENTÍFICO ES COMPARAR LOS TRENES CIRCULANDO POR LAS MISMAS VÍAS Y A LA MISMA VELOCIDAD Y CON LA MISMA CARGA, porque todo eso afecta a las vibraciones.
Comparar trenes arbitrariamente, en líneas diferentes, en trazados diferentes y en vías diferentes, y sin hacer ninguna medición científica es totalmente arbitrario y ridículo.
Eso es totalmente SUBJETIVO y NO CIENTÍFICO.
Que sí. A cuánto vendes tus acciones? 🤣🤣
Well, Germans ICE4 has after more than 5 years still a lot of issues with reliability. It happens so often, when they have to be replaced by an older ICE1, that have actually been replaced by ICE4 already. It also happend a couple of times in own rides, that they had to turn arround the train cause the driver cabine wasn't functioned. That cursed a lot of delays. And the High Speed Desiro HC (190km/h) for Nürnberg - Erfurt/Sonneberg is shaking as well.
Talgo's trains are supposed to be very high quality in curse of their unique technology, so I hope the issues to be solved soon, for they are just childhood diseases that isn't much unusual by new trains.
Just give it time and patience.
(Besides, the train's shaking can also be an issue cursed of the tracks, when they are not that much straight..)
Siemens reliability certainly isn't the best but the ICE 4 mostly stays out of service because of maintenance backlogs. Sure they got a few bad welding joints, but they found them in QC. Better late than after entering service. The big elephant in the room is the different technology talgo uses. While most trains use standard or Jacob's bogies, Talgo uses single axles on their short cars. They just can't be as comfortable, physically impossible. But they have the benefit of allowing completely low floor, very wide interiors. And it makes variable track gauges easily possible. All together I can't really see the benefit for German railways, the ICE L won't bring the necessary comfort for German tracks.
@@alfredvondrachstedt7129 I know all about Talgos technology, and it's supposed to run very quietly with very good smoothness. And it's of high quality, for it's proved out of generations. And yes, the most trains are using Jacobs boggies, so Talgo seems to be the last european company, that still makes something own.
Once Talgo Avril has been treated all the current issues, it's going to have the quality of the rest of the fleet. I also expect the ICE L to have a quality in the level of ICE3neo. Those are GREAT trains!
I just don't find this video much objective, for it's just based on informations of someone else and not even of own experiences.
Now I'm afraid in Germany we also get Talgo trains (ICE L) and the trains already have problems with approval for Germany and if the software problems remain we'll have the same crap
I’m sorry but like ? Why do you think Spain should change its gauge to standard??? For so many years Spain had Iberian gauge only so changing it all to standard would be both expensive and stupid since the Iberian gauge is quite actually
The shaking issue is probobly a effect of hounting oscilations that is something that is often a issue with trains that suposen to go on both normal amd high speed rail.
The previus train they used simply solved this by going slower.
I reckon they was built by the Ghosts of North British Locomotive.
I remember that Japan did try a gauge change train a while ago but they stopped development when the mini-shinkansen were developed
Well super. I have a trip on one of these beasts in Sept for 4 hours.
How was it?
It is this Sept. I will report to HitD about it :)
@@rabidraccoon1201 oh shit, I thought you meant you had one in 4 hours 💀
Commented so I get notification
Meanwhile the once despised and forsaken Fyra trainsets are running pretty much fine on high-speed services in northern Italy, and enjoying their cold but tasty dose of revenge
I live in the United States of America. What is this thing you refer to called "high-speed rail"?
Trains that go big fast
@@Combes_ Like 100 mph?
I can’t tell if you’re joking xd
@@Ruzzky_Bly4t *MORE* Big Fast
@@Combes_ OMG, like 120?!
Spain deliberately did not build standard gauge rails, it was an anti-invasion precaution with the French
Are you REALLY shure they're the absolute worst?
As a Spanish person. Yes they are the wose a shame because Talgo make some great trains.
@@Cepia120 Gee what a shock.😲
@@ALCO-C855-fanNot as bad as Frya went or a IET. But not great. But on Avlo there great lovely train
@@Cepia120 Well I guess what Ansaldo Breda produced before they went bancrupt was worse.... Like the HST's they produced for Belgium and the Netherlands in the 2010's I think.
@@ALCO-C855-fan True, in fact Talgo nowadays reminds me of the last days of AnsaldoBreda. Making subpar trains and ruining their lifelong reputation, and looking for a foreign buyer to end their misery, like Hitachi did with AB. In the case of Talgo, Czech and Hungarian manufacturers are currently negotiating with Talgo to buy the company.
Well... if a trainset is delayed that much, it tend to be a bad sign. This reminds med of the history of Switzerlands RABe 502... they were delayed for years and were supposed to become the new flagship train of Switzerland, but are now heavily criticized.
Ngl, that design looks cool af
As a Spaniard, I can confirm VIAJANDO CONTIGO is a Spaniard and his channel is very informative
Out of curiosity, which high speed train (or high-speed train system) do you think is worse? Is it the Spanish Talgo AVRL, or the various high-speed trains in China?
Also, what would you think if we built a very sleek, very heavily streamlined steam locomotive that travelled at speeds exceeding 200 mph?
I haven't looked into China's deeply enough to say one way or the other.
China without a doubt!
Sofar only a German ICE (mechanical wheeldesign failure) and Spanish Alvia (driver error) highspeedtrain had a crasch were passengers lost their lives.
The French (terrorism) and Japanese (earthquake) had sofar only derailments what led to injured passengers.
As China goes news about accidents is censored due to widespread corruption.
falsifying documents and inferiour material/parts does tamper with safety.
When new build road/rail bridges colapse and brand new electric public transport buses spontanious combust on route its logical to assume that corruption is also present in the Chinese high speed railsector.
the problem will be finding information about the Chinese railway network, as in the case of the firefighters and their fire-fighting system, if you go to see the videos you see their firefighters are better than the Americans, but if you go to see who gives the real information about that nation you discover that the hoses are not connected to the water network ditto with the hydrants, the firefighters to turn off a car took more than 20 minutes just to bring the hose up to pressure
the problem will be finding information about their national railway network, as in the case of the firefighters and their fire-fighting system, if you go to see the videos you see their firefighters are better than the Americans, but if you go to see who gives the real information about that nation you discover that the hoses are not connected to the water network ditto with the hydrants, the firefighters to turn off a car took more than 20 minutes just to bring the hose up to pressure
(Rewrite because the platform doesn't like constructive criticism)
Are the Chinese trains particularly bad, or is that just a typically arrogant presumption by the "West"?
This rolling stock probably have the most complain intern of high speed train rolling stock this day, let's be honest, if your high speed train have bumpy ride, you need to be concerned regardless how safe you say. Because people need comfort and expect that comfort on high speed train.
Talgo was never known for good ride quality.
They don't make it as they used to...😔
Actually, the Spanish got the gauge "thing" very, very well. The different gauge was a deliberate choice for national security. Remember that for much of the last century Spain was a dictatorship.
Ahhhh, that makes sense. I also read the only reason they have standard at all is just for the high speed line so they can link up with France's network without issue.
What utter nonsense.
Spain built its railway networks mostly during the mid-19th century, when it was lead by a liberal and progressive Queen Isabella II. It was chosen as 6 pie, pie being a unit in the now long discarded Spanish measuring units.
Nothing to do with invasions nor dictatorships. The only nation that ever invaded unified Spain is Napoleonic France, and only very reluctantly, and it ended in catastrophe.
The same thing can be said with the Soviet Union. They have a different gauge, but a large part of that is based on their history of being constantly being invaded.
Let British Rail take over...they'll fix it.
@@moosecat That’s also utter rubbish.
The Soviets inherited the railway system from the Russian empire, whom again selected their own gauge in the 19th century to fit their own units of measurement.
Although it is true that the Soviets considered slowly converting to standard gauge, but rejected it partly out of considerations of defence.
There was something similar happening in Poland last year, where it was discovered that the train manufacturer deliberately was messing up with train software so the trains were breaking at predefined time intervals. Obviously that given train manufacturer was the only one able to fix the issues. All this was discovered by a group of hackers employed by a train repair company...
Honestly, it does seem like incentives were not aligned between RENFE and Talgo on this, and that's why these trains have done so poorly.
RENFE wanted what was meant to be an engineering marvel (light, gauge changing, high capacity) , but were not willing to pay that much for it, while Talgo wanted to build trains, and so lied about the timetable and quality of the build so they could get the contracts and still maintains a profit.
Talgo has always had ride quality issues, but this train is just so much worse in so many ways, and hopefully these issues can be fixed shortly.
All economy is fine for me in my opinion. If it gets me somewhere then I'm taking it.
Yoooooooo
@@TheGs4_4449 wsg man how's portland
@@atsf47legit Good! How’s the mainline?
@@TheGs4_4449good, they finally stopped trying to take my kodachrome
@@TheGs4_4449my kodachrome be taking a beating
You'll be needing an *ADVIL* after riding on an *AVRIL!*
Well, we had the V250 Fyra in the Netherlands and Belgium, withdrawn and sent back to the manufacturer in Italy even before the initial test period was ended.
The German ICE-TD, or class 605 a diesel powered HST which had such poor reliability that it was withdrawn after only 15 years without considering a mid life reconstruction.
So if the problems with the Avril (which means April in Spanish) get solved and they give good service after that I would still consider them not as the worst trains. Time has to tell.
Technically not fully true about the ICE-TD, DSB (Danish state railways) had leased them for their Copenhagen - Hamburg route for a couple of years. When that lease was nearing it's end, the 605's were in dire need of a renovation where DB offered to sell the trainsets cheaply to DSB and let them pay for the renovations if they wanted to keep them. DSB declined the offer and as you sa yourself, they got scrapped.
@@albertthefarmer6023 I wasn't entirely up to date about the offer to DSB but DB wanted to get rid of them and not renovate them for their own use. So your info is a good addition to what I wrote.
@@Tom-Lahaye It's totally understandable why you weren't fully up to date as most information about the offer is in Danish, it was a shame though, I would have loved to see them stay with DSB as the one set that actually got DSBs own colors looked so good.
Spain does have a standardized gauge, its its Iberian wide gauge. It’s the high speed lines that are built to the international standard gauge. It’s an engineering thing, high speed rail built to Iberian gauge would have cost extra to do. It’s not a “we’re stupid” thing, it’s a “we adopted a standard before everyone else”. Kind of like how the Americas having 120v power at the outlets vs other parts of the world using 240. Or railways that have 3 kv DC overhead power vs 25 kv (power grid Hz) AC power. Places picked standards for these things before the world settled. The network is pretty standardized outside of that. Ireland also has a wide gauge too and no one complains about it.
So first Alstom with the avileas and the TGV M now talgo. Have we forgotten to how to build trains lol
New generation is now working these jobs. The fake it till you wreck it generation.
the more interesting question for me is. how similar is this train to the talgo 230, that will debut as ICE-L in germany.
sure, no gauge changing mechanism, but the cars look rather similar.
however, the ICE-L isn't meant to go that fast. and some problems will crop up with higher speeds.
Actually, another commenter who has travelled on the train said that the shaking was worse at lower speeds.
@@michaelgoetze2103 ouch... that's bad
@@robertheinrich2994 There‘s very little similarity other than the fact that both trains feature Talgo‘s patented wheel set arrangement. The Avril‘s carbodies are much wider than those of the ICE L, the Avril features two power cars whereas the ICE L will be Loco-hauled and the ICE L forgoes the need for passive titlting which the Avril requires to stay within loading gauge. The ICE L is essentially a somewhat updated version of regular Talgo IC cars which have been in service for decades and never really faced any major issues or complaints.
@@ft4709 I hope that this is true.
mechanical smoothing....DON'T GO WITH RUBBER INSERTS!!!!!(as the I.C.E. found out......)
If you have a power car at each end and no powered cars inbetween it is not an EMU. The latest Seimens HS sets, on the Eurosttar service, are EMU's. No power cars but with traction motors distributed through the train's consist.
Viajando contigo is a spanish railway news channel.
Worst ever? Really? You guys know that they reach 360 km/h with gauge changing right?
I think the CP Series 0350 is much worse. A rehashed 1950s DMU design that was modernised to its limit, and is needing of an urgent retirement.
Well, Talgos have always be known to be a little bangs & bonkers , because the sets don't use trucks. Not even axles. They use independent wheels. But these Avlos take the case a bit further, since their suspension differs from previous generstions. I don't see me riding on one in jointed rail.
As for the gauge changing system, it really is ingenious, and very simple, but it's older than you think; it was first used in service in 1969. The gauge thing was really a mix of stubbornness toghether with fears of invasion, wich in 1848 were still very fresh in Spaniards minds because of french invasions by Napoleon's srmy at the beginning of the Century. Neighbours Portugal and France tried to convince them to adopt Europe's standard gauge, but Spain was adamant... Untill 1992.
Spain has a very big problem on high speed lines, the operator renfe just spent a lot of money on ave lines and the neg talgo avri.
peapole are saying that the alvia s130 is fucking better than the avril thats the level of hate the new train is getting.
It's always nice to help spawn a video after sharing something on Discord, xd
Ah yes, the crowdstrike express.
They have arrived in Denmark and they're just as shaky mainly due to their single wheel arrangement
I mean, maybe one part of the delay was the worldwide pandemic, but I think there is still more to it than that.
Son buenos trenes , ya están avanzando en los problemas y corrigiéndolos.
Almost every train review channel on YT is hating on this train. Talgo just did a a huge disservice to its brand.
Only the look of it, i wanted to hate it. It looks so cheap and flimsy.
I think it’s one of ur videos where a town wanted to redevelop a railway round house where a collection was being held so they scrap the lot Carnt find it but on the same subject you could do a video about the railway round house at broadmedow Australia
They will always be awful. They will fight in court for years to avoid paying for upgrades, these will be relegated to the far edges of rte network and eventually make an unceremonious retirement (unofficial)
The Avril is meant to be an improvement over the earlier Talgo 102/112 series, so it puzzles me that they ride more roughly than those. It looks like the suspension needs to be redesigned. (That reminds me of the TGV Sud-Est which was first delivered with coil springs; the comfort was inadequate so a new pneumatic suspension was designed and all the units rebuilt. It can be done.) What I don't get (and they're probably currently still figuring it out) is what caused the comfort to get this much worse.
Talgo is in a bit of a problem now, they also landed important contracts for Germany and Denmark about 230 km/h push/pull trains with level boarding from 760 mm platforms. But those are delayed by years. The originally planned introduction into service was 2023, now end of 2025 is more likely and even that is not guaranteed. Reportedly the brakes aren't as powerful as planned, perhaps something will need to be redesigned and modified before they can go into service.
Talgo doesn't have the manufacturing capabilities for high quality production in large series. Traditionally they have built smaller series of trains and kept the company going with maintenance contracts, operating numerous workshops in different places. Remarkably they have exported trains to exotic countries such as Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Saudi-Arabia.
And now there's a takeover thriller. A Hungarian consortium offers to take over the Talgo company (which used to be a family business and more recently is mostly held by investment funds), the Spanish government suspects the Russians to be behind it, Stadler was rumoured to bid too but nothing seems to have come out of it, Škoda has placed another bid. According to some Spanish politicians combining the company with the other Spanish rolling stock manufacturer CAF would be best but it's unclear where the capital for that would come from. And do I see a smiling Chinese in the background just waiting for the right moment to strike?
Talgo has done a number of remarkable inventions. It would be bad if the problems with the Avril breaks their neck.
CAF stuff works, I doubt they'll want to be tainted by the association. Maybe Skoda can whip them into shape.
@@mikicerise6250 CAF has its problems too, in various countries.
Thats too bad, I really like power car High speed trains.
There's trains built in China for NSW Australia that have been sitting since 2019 as they have that many faults and safety issues the union banned them. And yet the government who owns them haven't fixed them either.
Wrong. Those trains were built by Hyundai-ROTEM, a South Korean company, and whose reputation is among the best.
No one expected the Spanish Inquisition
🤡🤡🤡🤡
I bearely watched any of your non train content any recommendations?
Yeah, they don’t corner very well…
They're pretty bad, but they're still better than some of the ones in operation in the UK. :/ But yeah, they're absolutely the worst high-speed trains in Spain right now. Iryo's Frecciarossi put them to shame. Those are such nice trains.
i dont speak spanish ether but sometimes google translate be u best frend ore lucky as i am most of my spanish frends who are train spotters also like me speaks withoud problems english and i am from netherlands i subscribed u chanal cheers from henri from netherlands i like the video also so thumbs up
I still don't understand why they didn't ordered CAF Oaris??
Seems like SBB Twindexx all over again
Well, the Fyras were (and still are) absolute crap, losing pieces while running LOL
That said, isn't the shaking probably caused by the bogies/suspensions? I mean, the bogies are intended to be variable, so there are different moving parts. I would say that the suspension system is not tuned properly for the bogies.
I would say that the
WEIRD KISS OF DEAD
The problem with the shaking and all the comfort stuff is more on Talgo side, their 1 wheel per wagon really isnt good for comfort
So I assume this will eventually go on worst ever?
Depends if they fix it or not. Time will tell.
Spain just got more pain
What's worse? This or the BR class 21?
What do you expect. Talgo makes junk, always have.
I'm sure they are awful.
But compared to the UK...
I mean we have had all these issues. And pay about x3 for it.
They are a national disgrace
I mean what did expect from a fish head train ?
The shaking issue actually is a pretty common problem with almost all Talgo trains :D
Yeah but until now you could say, "well... they're old." :p
I’m hearing V 250 Fyra vibes Dutch and Belgian people will know where I’m talking about
They have to be really bad to be that bad... the final report of those things makes trully amazing reading.
Also the IC4 and IC2 for DSB, one of which Ansaldo Breda gave to Col. Gadaffi as a birthday present, and tried to bill DSB for.
Ain't many people in the rail inductry who will miss Ansaldo - allegedly there was one class of italian MOW vehicles they built that were sent straight from the factory gate for scrapping, they were so bad.
The Fyra have since been purchased by Italian national operator Trenitalia, and after a refurbrishment process they're working on high speed services in northern Italy, without many issues as far as I know. I've seen then many times since they used to operate on the line that runs through my hometown, but I never had a chance to use them: I've heard that they're not amazing but do their job fine, after all they were built extremely on the cheap since the beginning. Maybe they just needed someone to believe in them and make them feel loved for what they truly are.
Jokes aside, AnsaldoBreda used to design some terrible products (but in fairness some nice one as well, like the automated metros), but I grew up in Italy in the early 2000s, I remember who was in power back then and they were definetly "interesting" times to live in. Other governments had all the right reasons not to trust the Italian one for anything. Ultimately AnsaldoBreda was sold to Hitachi and their products have got considerably better on average since then.
@@LucaPasini2 It’s a shame the V 250 wasn’t successful because the Dutch railways where all blamed for buying such trains even delaying a faster connection towards Brussels we are like 10 years later and the ICNG-B aren’t even running yet just imagine if that whole Fyra idea was a success maybe the Dutch railways would’ve actually pulled off a successful and relatively positive perspective on the whole Fyra name
and adding it on top the Fyra branding was pretty good and well done in a retrospective it’s just a shame the sets what where the flagship of the whole brand failed
@@rubentreingames6466 Some people on Italian train-related forums say that the Dutch wanted a completely custom-designed trainset for too little money and too quickly. Instead of going for an established platform they wanted to have a say in too many aspects of the project long into its development, and at the same time chose the lowest bidder.
When the trains appeared to have so many flaws they were quick to blame them on Italian sloppyness and endemic corruption (which was definetly there, don't get me wrong).
Some even say that they deliberately undermined the Fyra project because they started to fear it would have been unprofitable, and the fact that even today there still isn't a comparable service could serve as a proof.
AnsaldoBreda in the same years built the ETR400 and ETR500 that are the backbone of the Italian high-speed network, so they proved they can built good trains if they want, and the Fyra (now called ETR700), even if now they work, still look cheap and inferior compared to those.
The Talgo Avril has been emm a headache since its introdcution.
There are many resions why it end up that way.
The political partty that orderd these train (PP) ordern then to be as cheep as humanly posible.
To much inovation into 1 train this train has wider coaches than the usual allowing then to have 3+2 it has to be able to run to France and can change gauge (on some sets).
Mistake of the Renfe directors at the time to add the Culta seat desing from the German manufacter Kiel (which are awfull).
dont know why but this train kinda looks similar to Class 373 eurostar train
You should do a episode on NSW's problem children EMU's and DMU's!!
maybe talgo is taking pages out of alsodo brada's play book. ansodo brada IDK how to spell it
Could these trains be sold to india ( with appropriate modifications)if they do not perform well in spain , seeing as how the former operates their trains on a near identical & intercompatible track gauge to the latter🤔🤔🤔
bro talgo failed the ride tests in India back in 2018 itself. and platforms are too high for this.
You must avoid speaking non sense in youtube platforms.
How do we know if it's the fault of the train or the tracks?
No other trains running on the same tracks have these problems? xD
British Rail is back!
Does that mean British Rail becomes better by accident.
No
😂
Short carriages don't make for a good ride.......and...if their light rail products are anything to go by. Just don't buy Spanish.
So will these end up on worst trains ever?
Horrible sets indeed. I sure do hopw the one DB and DSB has gotten won’t be as bad since they done have all of the advanced tech😅
The riding quality is not resolvable. Have you seen the axle arrangement?
Yeah, it's weird. Apparently that arrangement is a Talgo thing. Dunno why they like it so much, especially if that's what's causing the shaking.
@HistoryintheDark the TALGO system has been in use since the 1940s mainly in Dpain but also in America.
@@HistoryintheDarkthe TALGO system was invented in the 1940s and uses independent wheel sets as opposed to a pair of wheels connected by an axle. Whilst this introduces extra complexity as each wheel needs to ve steered to allow smooth transition into and out of curves. The advantage is that the wheels run at the right speed alltge time without needing to move laterally on curves. Each intermediate coach has one end with wheels whilst the other end is carried on the next coach (the current S-Togtrains in Copenhagen use a simikar arrangement but not the TALGO system and it gives a ride quality as good as the previous generation of S-Tog trains). It sounds to me as if the mechanism that steers the wheel is not operating as intended.
Funnily enough, the TALGO system usually has a pretty good reputation for ride quality, so something is wrong here that's traducing TALGO's (usually) good name. Shared bogies have been used on carriages before, the LNER in the UK had express shared bogies sets from the mid 30's that had a pretty good reputation for riding quality. So... it's not the TALGO system itself, that's fine, but somebody really goofed when it came to assembling these particular TALGO wheelsets.
@robertwilloughby8050 the extra mass being carried by each wheel set is beneficial in terms of ride quality, but you need to get the suspension right. It's one of the reasons the APT had a poor ride quality, the suspension wasn't properly tuned.
You have not seen the mbta green line boeing lrvs
Que dificil es hablar el español, porque todo lo que dices tiene otra definicion
Spain went for the broad gauge back in the infantcy of railways. Portugal had to adopt the same gauge to allow through running between Lisbon and Madrid back in the 1850s. Often overlooked is that alot more than goos and passengers ride the rails. Political and economic influence also travels by rail. The choice of gauge can make or break a county’s economic standing. This is why to this day Spain has a sickly economy.
I have ridden on the Avril, it's the best high-speed train in Spain, despite its failures
@@mariadelmarjimenezarroyo It's miles behind the Siemens one, it's actually worse than the previous Talgo used in S102
@@DarkPanterYT I respect your opinion sir, but the Avril is for me the best high-speed train in Spain and even in Europe
One of them crashed btw. Watch the video about it by Thunderbolt 1000 Siren Productions. Maybe cover this in a sequal too.
That was a Talgo 250, not an AVRIL. These only entered service last spring. Also that wreck wasn't the trainset's fault.
@@HistoryintheDark Possible, but same country and high speed + your railway accident list could need an update. I as well as many otheres I'm shure would be happy to hear your thoughts about it now where you already talk about Spain and desasters on wheels.
That was a different type of older Talgo train (and was due to the driver going excessively fast)
@@AndreiTupolev I still think Darkness needs to cover this too. His accident list desperately needs an update despite it having already many great videos in it.
Spain is in spain without the s
Here in the UK, we have Spanish built trains by CAF (Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles).
They are also known by railway enthusiasts as Cr*p as F*ck or Computer Aided Failure.
Spanish trains whether built for thier own market or others seem to have one thing in common...very uncomfortable seats!
CAF trains tend to be quite good outside the UK (Northern spain, RoI, etc). The issue is that the UK government sucks and they don't pay for high quality seats etc.
All Talgo Trains are shaking by Design. The Low Comfort is short cart design with less wheels
Spain's Renfe don't pay damages to accident victims at all. Even Amtrak ditched the talgo with the horizon before the venture cars. But, yeah don't ride Spain's Railroad network, in accidents with Renfe, you loose everything, no reparations from Renfe for damages. Renfe is sinister.
I hear that Spain’s rail network (Renfe) in general, just sucks. I read some reviews, and they say that their trains are “stinky” and “old”. I don’t think these sets are gonna help…
@@TheGs4_4449 Well I'll take it if it's all economy or not. If it gets me somewhere and it's something I can afford it I'm taking it.
Renfe is still better than almost anything in the USA.
This service is AVE, not Renfe.
And they're still better than the buses. Speaking from experience...