Repertoire: The BEST Nielsen Symphony Cycles
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ย. 2024
- At the time of writing (2020) there are seven very recommendable Nielsen symphony cycles, and about ten that are considerably less so. Nielsen's special brand of irrepressible energy allied to organic formal mastery still tends to challenge musicians and audiences alike, but if you answer that challenge you will find that the rewards are immense.
This is the best and most convincing argument for NIelsen I have ever met. You obviously love the man,and express what you love about his work with shining clarity.
Thanks David. The Oramo discs are going onto my "To buy" list. The Blomstedt SF versions have been my go-to recordings for years.
I'm gradually acquiring the Oramo and looking forward to hearing them many times.
Regarding the Schønwandt cycle: we did the whole thing within a week and half, or so, doing all symphonies in 3 concerts the same week. I remember looking at all the subs, who had to play all or some of them for the first time. They were working hard for their money! If you watch the video of the 5th from that same cycle, you will see and hear at the end how the 1st trumpet is just soooo loud in the last chord, and holding the note juuust a little longer, and as Schønwandt cuts it off, you can see him mouthing the words “Oh, Ole altså”!
Hello Mr Hurwitz.
As a Swede I feel proud that you observe the Swedish label BIS and in this case also a Swedish orchestra. Thank you.
And both Salonen and Rozhdestensky were made in Sweden. There's something of a monopoly there on fine Nielsen cycles (and Chung and Järvi in Gothenburg too--less fine in some ways, but still...). Remarkable.
BIS is a sleeper for good recordings - I have been buying BIS since they launched LPs and then CDs - a good label to keep and recordings to enjoy
Hi David: Rodestvensky was ever my top cycle. I would to like if you made a recommendation for Shosty cycles. From Kondrashin and Barshai to Kirill Petrenko for Naxos. Enjoying all your videos. Many thanks!
@Don P Yes! Today I see it. All true. Petrenko is the best Shosty cycle, with Barshai.
Nielsen's been one of my favorite composers for some time. I've always liked the Blomstedt SFSO set; it was the first I heard. I'm glad you included the Kuchar cycle; I was really surprised that it was so good. He's a really underrated conductor; he did a Prokofiev symphony cycle on Naxos that's first-rate. The playing on the NYPO is shockingly good especially from the brass. The Schonwandt cycle also has DVDs of performances. And there's a fantastic video of Bernstein conducting Nielsen's 3rd on TH-cam. I played Nielsen's 4th in music school. It was a rare instance when I never tired of the music. It was great fun! Ages ago, I unearthed an LP of Nielsen's 4tn with the Cincinnati Symphony and Max Rudolf that's surprisingly good. (Disclaimer: The principle trombonist was my teacher when I was in music school.)
Thanks, Dave! I really enjoyed your discussion about Nielsen. He is still an underrated composer who definitely deserves to be known much more widely. I own and enjoy the Gilbert/ NYPO CDs. They are wonderful performances and sincere. It is clear that both conductor and orchestra really wanted to record a cycle for the ages and to show that Nielsen was a terrific composer.
I saw Oramo and the CBSO do the 4th at the Proms about 10 years ago, really exciting performance, with Bridge The Sea and the Sibelius Violin Concerto, marvellously played by Sarah Chang. Saw Paavo Jarvi with the BBC PO, your favourite, do the 5th many years ago. That was a pretty gripping performance. Who knows, eh? Enjoyed the talk, as always.
Thanks for highlighting Carl Nielsen, David. He was, as you say, a greatly varied composer. I grew up with the songs that he set to music and there is so much to love there. Being Danish, I can also really sense the scenery of the Danish countryside in his music. Furthermore, he has a great sense of humour, especially Maskerade comes to mind here, tremendously funny opera that opens with two guys hungover in the late afternoon, doesn’t get more Danish than that! The cycles of his symphonies that I know and love have always been Schønwandt’s cycle, Blomstedt’s cycle in San Francisco and then Kuchar’s that you also bring up here. I need to check out the Schmidt and Oramo cycle, so thanks for that! I also wanna throw in Rattle’s 4th in Birmingham, coupled with Sibelius’ 5th, it’s a live performance, I believe, on EMI, I like that one because it really has a lot of geist! But I also want to mention a collection of historical performances of the symphonies and other pieces on the Danish label Danacord. I am affiliated with Danacord, but these performances really have an incredible power and speed, and the music really matters to the conductor and the musicians.
Nielsen is one of my favorite composers and I don't have much to add to this list. Blomstedt and Schoenwandt have been my cycles of choice for years. I really love the Bernstein 3rd, the Morton Gould 2nd and the Martinon 4th, but as a cycle probably the Blomstedt is my favorite one. Alan Gilbert's is quite good, and I even attended the 6th Symphony public rehearsal at David Geffen Hall (I think I heard the "Maskarade" Overture a dozen times that morning), but I find those recordings somewhat less "crispy" than they should be. And I really have to listen more attentively to the Oramo cycle - he's a wonderful conductor.
Morton Gould! Yes, the orchestra sounds great on that record. I was disappointed in the Clarinet Concerto on that LP with Benny Goodman. I have never warmed up to the piece.
Hi David, I've just downloaded the Janacek Philharmonic set from Presto Music here in the UK for £9.95......it is electrifying!. Love the engineering too. Excellent recommendation. Cheers Ian .( Leicester, UK ).
Enjoy!
Totally agree, Ian. I picked it up in NZ for a pittance and it's excellent.
I wish Bernstein had done a cycle. His Nielsen 3 and 5 are my favorites. I haven't heard his 4, or Ormandy's 1 and 6.
As a 22-year San Francisco Symphony Chorus singer, I really want to root for Blomstedt, but I still go back to Bernstein.
And thank you for championing Nielsen.
Bernstein's 4th is pretty bad.
Thanks for another excellent overview. I’m working through the Oramo cycle and have downloaded his 2nd and 4th to my iPhone. OMG these are knockouts. Have the excellent cycles by Gilbert/NYPO and Blomstedt/SFSO; I find it necessary to crank up the volume for the Gilbert recordings to fully appreciate and enjoy them.I very much like Schonwandt in nos. 2-5, have not heard his 1st and 6th. BTW a few years ago I heard a Chicago Symphony archive concert broadcast of Martinon conducting the 2nd symphony. It was sensational; to my knowledge there is no commercial recording of Martinon performing this work, a pity given his success with the 4th.
Gotta say, if anyone likes the Nielsen symphonies and hasn't heard Vagn Holmboe's, you might be pleasantly surprised. I like both sets though I prefer Holmboe's by quite a bit overall. I mention Holmboe because they're my favorite Danish composers.
Thanks for you excellent discussion. I had 2 Nielsen symphony sets, namely the Kuchar (glad you also think it is great - I new it was something special the first time I heard it) and Blomstedt's first set. I always felt the Blomstedt is not good enough and that I need to replace it with a better set of recordings. But never got around to it, until I listened to your discussion and I decided now is the time. The sets you mentioned that impressed me the most was firstly Salonen and Oramo. In the end I decided on Oramo's brilliant set. But also very impressive is the set of Ole Schmidt- simply magnificent and presenting Nielsen in such a different light compared to Oramo, that I decided to also add his recordings also to my collection. Thanks again for a great video.
Thanks for the comment Oramo vs Schmidt as different views of the music. I was wondering whether to just stick with Schmidt but that has intrigued me into trying the new set!
@@davidwyatt850 I am convinced having both will enrich your enjoyment of Nielsen's symphonies.
As usual, a timely video Dave. I was just about to pull the trigger on the LSO live cycle but now I've got some other choices to consider. Thanks.
Thanks David , I hadn't really understood Nielsen . Thanks for the glimpse of how good he is
Happy to help!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for your reply .On another topic , I am being driven crazy trying to find the recording of Igor Oistrakh playing the Shostakovich violin concerto No 1 with Kurt Sanderling . Does it exist or have I got something wrong ?
Wow, thank you for this wonderful introduction to someone who was trying to find a way to Carl Nielsen - you provided a great way for me to conceptualize before starting to listen to his symphonies. I now have the Gilbert box and started with 3 and 4 - yay it's awesome!!
Glad it was helpful!
It’s crazy how I just discovered Neilsen’s first and second symphony within the past 3 days and here pops up this video! Thank you!
You're welcome. I promise I wasn't spying on you.
Great video. I love these symphonies, and you are absolutely right that you can’t half-ass his music whether it’s the flute concerto, one of the symphonies or chamber music. You really have to commit. And the analogy to Beethoven is spot on. I often explain to my friends that his music speaks to me the way that Mahler speaks to others; it’s that kind of music. I listened to a lot of these cycle earlier on daily walks at the beginning of the pandemic and agree with some of your assessments. Haven’t heard (didn’t know) of the Oramo but definitely want to check it out especially after that amazing Schmitt 2nd symphony he did a couple years ago. I grew up on the N. Jarvi/Gothenburg on DG and really liked it, but maybe need to listen again to see what it says to me now...
Another great video Dave! I have loved Nielsen for years!
First time I got my head around the sixth symphony was with the earlier recording of Esa-pekka Salonen with the Swedish Radio Orchestra. I'll listen to Oramo!!
Thank you for another talk. Bit late coming to this!I have the Blomstedt. I never thought of Alan Gilbert and the NYPO. Oh I’ll have to buy the Oramo discs, too!
Don't forget to mention Jascha Horenstein's half-cycle on various labels -- BBC , Unicorn (#5), Intaglio (#3 and #6), Nonesuch (#5) -- including one of the most powerful, moving 5ths I've ever heard. He also championed and almost completed recording Nielsen's opera "Saul and David." Horenstein's BBC label recordings of Mahler's 6th and 8th also contain the conductor's positive recollections of his personal meeting with the composer.
His Nielsen is mostly pretty bad. The Fifth has a potentially great first movement marred by overbalanced timpani, but the second movement is the worst on disc, bar none.
@@jhb134 Nice try in the apologia department. Horenstein is still deathly dull and inexcusably rigid. I don't buy the "grasp of overall structure" BS. Tempo is but one factor of many, and our perception of "form" is not based solely on metronomic inflexibility.
Markevitch's Nielsen 4th is one of my top symphony recordings EVER, and I'm really sorry there is no complete cycle. Talk about exciting...and inextinguishable.
Quite agree😊
I still love Lenny's "Espansiva" and 5th but I decided to buy the Oramo "Inextinguishable" and 5th and was blown away by it. It's fantastic. So I bought the second disc that features Nos 1 and 3 and felt exactly the same way about that. I've only just ordered 2 and 6 from Presto to complete the series and should have that - hopefully - fairly soon. These symphonies are glorious and should be in everyone's collection.
Excellent observation about Nielsen not being considered an "ethnic composer." I knew you'd like the Blomstedt and I have his second cycle. I find myself really liking nos. 2 and 3. The sixth is definitely a quixotic one!
Thank you for your brilliant review on the Carl Nielsen symphony cycles. 👍
I have all Nielsen's symphonies and orchestral works with Douglas Bostock conducting the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, released on four CD's by the Danish recording label 'Classico'. But I will most certainly check out the recordings with Sakari Oramo.
I have several cycles and am considering adding the Oramo box, but I am delighted to hear that someone else has and enjoys the Bostock cycle. Underrated and I paid so little for it.
This is a very useful and interesting review. Like the way you describe the structure and evolution of this marvellous cycle. Only point on which I disagree : Storgards is one of my favorite (and best engeneered) cycle ! Blomstedt II and Schonwandt are absolutely great.
I wonder if the Storgards will wear well over time...
I have the second Blomstedt cycle, but also I've 'done a Dave Hurwitz' and collected indiviual recordings of the symphonies as well. I love Chung's Third, Bernstein's Fifth, and, even though DH gives him a big thumbs down, Davis in the Fourth. The Sixth is tricky. It's such a bonkers symphony. I am definitely going to investigate the Oramo cycle.
Always liked the Schmidt LSO version (apparently the recording venue was so cold they had to bring in additional heaters - I think it was Cripplegate Church?). I think also the Kuchar sounds very fine indeed, despite the orchestra's limitations. Need to check out the Oramo BIS - cheers for the that!
I just picked up the Oramo performances on BIS, based on a clip I heard I landed here and watched the review. So this recommendation tipped me over; I was in the market for another Nielsen cycle.
Thanks for the Oramo recommendation! These are the most blazingly beautiful performances ever. I have many cycles but this one tops them all.
My pleasure! Thanks for listening!
I have both the Kuchar set on Brilliant Classics, and the Gilbert set on DaCapo. The Kuchar is a surprise set it is really good. The Gilbert set is a tough one to beat. I am saving up to get the Oramo set. I suspect it will be the one to have for a long time.
Another way that Nielsen is comparable to Beethoven: What other composer's style and "sound world" evolved as radically from first symphony to last? (And in about the same span of time, 30-odd years.) Both, of course, lived in times of stylistic transition, and in traumatic historical periods to which their music (Beethoven 3 and 5, Nielsen 4 and 5) responds vividly. It's also probably revealing that some of the best interpreters of Nielsen - Bernstein, Markevitch, Martinon, Salonen - were/are themselves composers.
Another great discussion. I like both Blomstedt/SF and Schonwandt cycles, but agree that Blomstedt is preferable in 5 (also 3 and 6 maybe) and Schonwandt in 4. Added to these for me are Gilbert in 1 and 4 and the concertos, and an exciting 5 with Sondergard and the BBC National Orch of Wales coupled with a rather mediocre Sibelius 5th on a BBC Music cover disc, which further proves your point that a good Nielsen conductor does not necessarily make a decent Sibelius one. The exception is Blomstedt in San Francisco.
listening to Blomstedt and San Francisco's cycle all day today doing gardening work!!! what a blast- my only Nielsen cycle I own- but I need to listening to your recommendations Dave! time to go further- wonderful video ❤oh! what about Maskerade???
It's a terrific opera.
I recommend an excellent book on the Nielsen symphonies by Robert Simpson (whose own symphonies are worth exploring). He regarded Nielsen as the greatest symphonist of the 20th century. I think he’s up there with Sibelius, Mahler and Shostakovich.
I like the book until he gets to the 6th Symphony. Simpson, first of all, had no sense of humor at all, and he was a very formulaic thinker. When he encounters a work that doesn't fit his parameters, he faults the work, not the parameters. However, it is a very good basic guide in most other respects, and it's not like we are spoiled for choice!
@The Ultimate Classical Music Guide by Dave Hurwitz I recall in the 1989 paperback printing of the 1979 edition he had radically revised his view of the 6th.
@@vilebrequin6923 I have this in hardback with the new chapter about 6.
The dynamics problem with Blomstedt you have mentioned reminds me of the annoying tremolo decrescendo some conductors (Bernstein) made in Sibelius 2 finale, in the poco largamente before the final apotheosis, where the forte-tremolo must be cresc. poco a poco. The lack of transparency is sometimes better than the lack of drama and tension.
YES - so much I hear - You say so TRUE of Nielsen
I noticed you didn't do a review on the Paavo Berglund & Royal Danish Orchestra's complete Neilsen symphonies.
I did say that they are terrible, and they are.
@@DavesClassicalGuide okay, sorry, I must have missed that!
I took your advice though on the Jeffrey Tate - Mozart: The Complete Symphonies and also the Ole Schmidt complete Nielsen symphonies. I may get a second set for the Mozart ones as I'm a mad Mozart fan. I thought of getting the Levine one because of the repeats (I know 'It's insane' LOL!).
You're costing me money. But I like your reviews I just wish they were indexed so one can easily skip through them.
PS: I liked your explanation of the musical tags as used by Haydn and Mozart. It's so true. Those musical tags are not anyone's per se but are basically universal so anyone can apply them to their compositions. Unlike plagiarism which take notes and use them exactly in sound, tone, delivery, production, etc., as someone else. The song "My Sweet Lord" and "He's So Fine" spring to mind (Sorry George - love you man!).
I wholeheartedly endorse your recommendation of Sakari Oramo's Nielsen! BTW, Oramo just issued a top-notch performance of Alwyn's Miss Julie. Really top flight!
Really bad opera, though!
Thank you so much David for that splendid review. Didn’t the Schonwandt box also have the DVD versions of the entire cycle? I remember using it for illustration in a talk at a listener’s club session on Nielsen here in Kolkata. And many many thanks for your comments on the Berglund...I was curious...now I shall temper my curiosity...
Yes it did!
I put the case that if a listener new to Nielsen didn't know he was Danish, and the listener was asked which country of origin they thought this music, I would not be surprised if they responded America. The scale of sound with the sagging bluesy chords, has a cinema score sound you would accept in a cowboy film. However, unlike film scores, Nielsen's music is symphonic and of real significance in classical music.
That's an interesting observation. I only would have said that with respect to the opening of the finale of Symphony No. 4, which sounds like Elmer Bernstein's score to The Magnificent Seven--but only for the first fifteen seconds or so.
What do you think of the Gould/CSO recording of the Nielsen 2nd?
I like it a lot. Don't you?
His 2nd is my imprint recording and I think its the best 2nd ever. His tempos are astonishing and the playing/recording is phenomenal especially for its day.
I rather like the Bernstein Neilsen 2nd, but he does make the finale sound something like a Danish "Rodeo".
Does anyone have any thoughts on the cycle by Douglas Bostock with the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic? This is the only set I have, which I really enjoy, but have no basis to compare it to any of the other cycles mentioned.
It's just average, not really competitive.
Thank you David. I appreciate the response!
Please Dave talk about Brahms and why his symphonies are hard to get into.
I've done many videos about Brahms. As to his symphonies being hard to get into, that's a matter of individual taste. and while you may be right, the universe disagrees.
Have I missed something, Dave, or have you failed to consider the Bostock/RLPO cycle? Not that you are likely to consider it as one of the best, because it isn't, but you are normally so thorough and comprehensive.
The title of the video is "the best" and as you say, it isn't--at all. So I see no need to mention it.
Fair enough! 🙂@@DavesClassicalGuide
What do you think about the Nielsen set by Edward Serov, with the Odense Symphony Orchestra on the label Kontrapunkt?
It is not on your "bad" list. Should it be there?
It is so difficult to get complete (at least here). I can live without it, but as I recall, having not heard it in a long time, it wasn't bad.
May I throw in a mention of Fynsk Forar (Springtime on Funen). It's a vocal/choral piece, I used to have a performance I taped off the radio, sorry I have no idea who the performers were but it was a total delight. I can't imagine that anyone could hear it and not love it.
listening to his sixth symphony, which is odd in the extreme; does he match the symphonic grandeur of Sibelius? and Beethoven??? I have Schmidt; Bostock; Berglund for the whole cycle, Thomson for II, Dudamel for IV-V, and Horenstein for V.
,
Oh, I was listening to Berglund -- "mushy' -- too bad! Thomson "sloppy." Horenstein "deathly dull and inexcusably rigid".
Schmidt "very, very, very good"!
I heard some of the old Odense recordings with Serov, and remember that they were fine, but the sound were not top. The good news is, that in this week my local band, Odense Symphony Orchestra, have recorded number 5, with more to come.
You can find fine critics of Odense Symphony recordings, if you look at the splendid webside Classics Today.
Yes, we did a couple of dozen of them, and many are very fine.
IMO the conflict reaches its peak in the 5th symphony. The 6th seems to disintegrate. Dr. Robert Simpson called the final theme and variations a grinning skeleton in his spoken program notes. The Kuchar set introduced me to the Nielsen symphonies and the Ole Schmidt set convinced me. I bought a good used LP set which includes Dr. Simpson's lecture demonstration.
Had forgotten about that lecture, thank you for the reminder. 😊
Am I alone in finding Blomstedt's earlier Danish performances actually more satisfying and more - for want of a better word - idiomatic than his later SF recordings? Yes, he was by the time of the SF recordings a more accomplished conductor, and the SF was a more accomplished, elite orchestra; but that might be my problem with it: Nielsen should be a little rough around the edges, especially Nos 4 & 5. These works should surprise, they shouldn't be too smooth, too plush, but that's what I hear with his second set; it's all too comfortable and beautifully upholstered. It never shrieks, never squawks, there's never grit in the gears. They play it too perfectly. As though there is no struggle. I don't hear music right on the edge in those performances. So I don't disagree with Dave, he's right - Blomstedt's SF performances are more accomplished than his Danish ones. And if that's what you're looking for, then that's all good. Personally I prefer the slightly less polished timbres and phrasing of his Danish recordings.
I think you are (not) hearing things. There's is nothing too smooth about the SF performances, and certainly no lack of a sense of struggle. The Danish performances, on the other hand, are clearly inferior for just those qualities. The orchestra is patently worse, the energy less palpable--too soft and lacking in focus. I understand your point, but I have to be dogmatic about it and say that this is a matter of audible fact, at least in this case. There is a difference between struggle as an expressive quality and mere distress resulting from second-rate ensemble.
You didn't mention Bostock! What a shock! I can't believe it!!!
Blomstedt's first go doesn't rise to the heights in all the symphonies, but its sound is lovely. I would supplement it with Schmidt's disc of 4 and 5.
I've heard good things from Kuchar but could not get into his Nielsen. Apart from the scrappy orchestra, I found the sound thin and the interpretation too brusque.
I should add, in the interests of full disclosure, that I don't like 3 except for the first movement.
I bought the Blomstedt SF set as it was recommended. Major disappointment: the sound is distant and indistinct. Jettisoned and replaced with the vivid, powerful and detailed Oramo set.
No, the sound is not distant and indistinct. You are welcome to dislike the performances if you choose, but that comment simply is not true and it's not a matter of opinion.
I don’t find the sound of any of the Decca SFS recordings to be at all distant, and generally not at all indistinct either, though the sound in Davies did become clearer after the acoustic renovations completed in 1992 (after these recordings were made as far as I remember).
My mistake. After defrosting the Blomstedt set, which I bought three years ago, from its Siberia in a far drawer, I found it to be the first (DRSO) cycle, not the SFS version. You are right about the SFS version, and I am duly chastened!
About Bernstein's Nielsen 4
When I started collecting records in the 70s, one of my first purchases was Bernstein's Nielsen 4th. I liked the piece, but I hated the recording. At the time, I had never seen the score, so I had no opinion about the interpretation per se. What I objected to was downright ugliness of tone - shrieking over-miked piccolos, out-of-tune, overblown trumpets, buzz-saw French horns, thuddy pounding tympani... The recording sounded like an orchestra with interspersed takes of a high school marching band. I think the orchestra overplayed it, but I also think the Columbia engineers played up the harshness of the piece in a way that was not flattering.
Maybe this explains why I was so disappointed with a Karajan performance of Nielsen's Fourth Symphony. Karajan is a great interpreter of Sibelius, but he just does not get this work. It's simply hideous!
How true about conductors going around and doing "spot check" rehearsals to "personalise" their performances. It's just disgraceful.
It's like a dog going around peeing on things to mark its territory.
Exactly.