I promised myself I would rewatch this series while taking notes and getting the books listed, and so far the re-visit has been even more fulfilling than my first go-around over a year ago. Erich Fromm, Nishitani, Tillich, Barfield and so many other writers have been enlightening me in ways like never before. This is the youtube series that keeps on giving.
John, as a believer I so appreciate your respect, care and diligence in this video. Each video I say wow this one is the best! However each Friday I have to recant my previous statement. Outstanding work and your respect for the content is so deeply appreciated. Well done Sir!!!
@@RickDelmonico yikes. It seems to me there is only one person here with an "I've got this shit figured out" attitude. I'm well aware of Missler's answer to your "4 gospels" question. I don't have any ill will towards you; I was genuinely curious why you think you have a superior understanding of the Bible, why is it so "clear from listening to this lecture", and why that was your response to this brief video which only mentions John and Paul and makes no attempt to explain the synoptic gospels, let alone the entire Bible or even the New Testament. I am a humble student with plenty to learn--you appear to be in some pain, I hope you feel better soon. God Bless.
“God is creating the future: He’s creating the historical process and course of history that makes people possible. See, agape is the kind of love that creates persons... the way a parent loves a child... by loving that non-person, you turn it into a person... it’s a God-like ability that we have to participate through love in another being. We can transform that being from a non-person into a person.” Beautifully said, that moved me to tears!
I spent my life up to this point swearing against religion. I have even succeeded in turning people away from their faith in times of doubt and I actually thought I was doing them a favor. I now realize that I was only a pawn to my own prejudice, ego, and self-centered perspective. I thought I knew what was behind the door without even opening it. I now truly understand that I was blind and alone because that was how I was raised, alone and in the dark. I simply could not comprehend the meaning of honest unconditional love and therefore could only believe in it as a fantasy, a lie. I have only made the world a worse place without realizing it and I am sorry. I truly hope the best for everyone in this insane world we have created for ourselves. I will become a better person moving forward.
@@joshsmith8066 Peace be with you. I hope you can find and participate in the kind of love John V. is talking about. Your comment was deeply moving. All the best to you.
@@joshsmith8066 it’s not just you. Our whole culture makes us blind to this insight whilst at the same time being founded on it. I’m hopeful John and people like him can help us find the language to talk about this again.
Absolutely inspired by your concept and explanation of agape. I have been a Christian for a long time and always believed God is Love but somehow your understanding has lit a new flame in my heart.
You sir, have become a personal kairos to me, fundamentally changing my modal existence. What a transforming series to say the least. Can’t thank you enough.
That was AMAZING. I am so moved by this. It's a sense of both awe and relief. Navigating these concepts is so heart-wrenchingly, brain-crunchingly difficult and has tormented and uplifted me in a dizzying dance for huge chunks of my life. Your insights weave for the first time a clear path through these greatbighuge ideas and conflicts. I am awed constantly by the fact that this series exists. Each episode leaves my jaw closer to the floor than the previous one. Thank you, John. A million times, thank you.
100%. After I left the damaging Christian cult I was raised in, I made a hard fork to capital "A" atheism, which turns out to just be a knee-jerk reaction to religious fundamentalism. What a relief to have access to intellectuals like Jung, Campbell, Peterson, and Vervaeke to help us see the truth in the myth, and understand a proper interpretation of what our ancestors were desperately trying to tell us.
@@Eric.Morrison Right on brother, atheism is the equivalent of self-denial and as you say, it is a perfect response to cult formation, but not it's transcendent. The ancient texts point to is a caution against blind mass formation, or the "madness of crowds". Cynical cult leaders understand this, but as we know it is about power and control. I like to say, if it is empowering the individual then it is a religion. If it is dis-empowering the individual at the expense of a cult leader then it is a cult. Atheism does not empower the individual, so I do see it as a cult, especially when taken to extremes such as the Chinese state which is mandated to be 100% atheist, which means, you worship the cult leader instead. CCP is a good example of an atheist cult. The soviet union and Nazi Germany were also atheist cults, that sometimes used religious symbology in a deeply cynical way.
Prof. Vervaeke: I learned so much from all your lectures and thoughts. I observed that your passion and love for truth is felt in this lecture. I feel your struggle to want that Jesus love but still struggling to not allow your self to surrender to it. Inner conflict with god. I hear anger ( frustration)and little pushing away of what you crave. I grow up with foundational religion and I resist the god that was shoved down my throat. I love and respect your process and will continue with lectures. You are already a saint don’t worry about finding god at the level of mind.
I can't pull apart your teachings from the meaning they represent to me, kind of quoting the lessons ☺️. You're amazing, John. Thanks for sharing such a wonderful path with us. It is life changing.
This lecture is so great. I feel and understand the concept of 'agape', and open up my mind to my ancestors and parents who made me a human being from an animal. I used to have a very bad relationship with my mother. But I feel I can leave the hatred aside. Thank you John for explaining the agape concept.
I keep watching these videos, because he is making clearer so much of history and philosophy, and he starts each one so calm, and I hope, this time he won't yell, and then he always starts yelling.
I’ve never heard agape explained like this. Thank you for this series. It’s a pleasure listening to you give context, trace the history of these ideas, and weave it all together.
@@brodyeckblad7413 maybe jordan just explains it differently. But I feel like I understand things better with john maybe it's because he made a lecture series connecting the dots for us.
John, thank you for this amazing series. I was doing a transparency to opacity shift today on the subject of Agape. Looking at the various features from my old framing of this word. This sense of For-Giveness, to show love to someone before they 'earn' it...before they have shown love to you perhaps. That it helps them develop into 'person hood.' I can see many beautiful things about looking at Agape this way. I've also experienced a dangerous way this can be used within a Cult I was raised in. Perhaps you can spot the subtle but important differences from what you're presenting here? In the cult, you would find yourself in an Agent Arena relationship where you are loved 'only' for your potential future self. You did not deserve love as you were, so you did everything you could to conform yourself to their Gestalt. You do this in hopes that one day you might actually be loved and valued in the present moment. The predicament with this orientation though, is that the future self was never reached. As we know, there is always a better future self. Life is always in the process of change. So a person would be endlessly trapped desperately chasing a mirage that could never be reached. Some future version that would be worthy, valued and loved as is. There was a definite illusion of some Perfect 'final version' of yourself that would be attained one day. Reminds me of the 'Having Mode". Perhaps this dilemma is 'Modal Confusion'? I have been developing a new framing around love and its relationship to growth. Realizing that we are always 'Becoming' has helped me stop trying to attain some Top of the Mountain in hopes that I will finally be accepted. Instead, what if you loved and valued yourself and other life forms(human or not) as it is? As life that is naturally in the process of change. Needing no justification. Life is, so choose love. What if you loved and valued the nature of life as it is and because it is, Being Process. And that love is what welcomed you, in your process, to enjoy and value the Being mode. To enjoy a playful flow of the process of learning and gaining wisdom. Yes even the mistakes, crashes and missing the marks. It's all part of the process. We know that great accelerated learning happens in a playful flow state and we know that with continued learning and gained wisdom, we will be afforded increased ability and capacity to adapt with the constant of change. Hopefully, through both changing things 'that we can change' in our environment and changing our mental framing in relationship to the 'things we cannot change', we will be able to improve the experience of life for ourselves and other living creatures. Why would we want to improve the experience of life, because we love all the living parts of life.
Ok, Paul VanDerKlay, have fun with this one! And when you do, I’d love to know if you think that John Vervake, JBP, and other non-Christians are in some ways better at articulating Christian values than our own priesthood of believers... IMHO, at least in this secular generation, it seems to be so.
VERY interesting comment. To be honest though isnt that sort of always the way it goes? The old authority slowly grows corrupt and the interpretation of scripture loses its relevance in day to day lives until a maverick comes along and says the emperor has no clothes and ya'll MAY have been reading this wrong...
svjsfgh , perhaps part of it is the lingo... the “Christian-ese” the church relies upon creates a barrier to articulation within the world’s framework. When someone like Vervake then describes the same glorious truths to which we have become numb (just like when Vervake describes the Christian “ground” beneath our feet as generally despised) we hear the glory renewed... just a thought!
@@shannonrosengarth8874 More than just a thought--an astute one at that! It reminded me how Paul and the Gospels--in particular John--used Greek language and thought to subvert the prevailing paradigm. Especially John's use of the Greek concept of Logos does exactly this. And yet that language has fossilized in the Church because we equate doctrinal orthodoxy with linguistic and cultural orthodoxy. Good point!
I've only developed a respect for Christianity through non-religious people expressing what is in the depths of these ideas. I think modern religion (generally) is failing massively at demonstrating, or even understanding the actual truth, or value of their belief systems to a somewhat scientifically minded modern audience. I believe that the modern westerner needs to hear Christianity dissected in psychological terms and the mythology needs to be explained in rational terms. Most people laugh at these kinds of metaphysical claims nowadays, and I feel comfortable saying that most people do not understand or respect mythology - which they really should do to some extent
Had to come back here after hearing Pageau's definition of love as a multiplicity joining a single purpose to exist as one, without destroying the initial the multiplicity - existence as both as a whole and a communion of distinct parts. It is useful to combine this with your elucidation of eros as consumptively doing away with multiplicity, and philos as working toward a unified goal while maintaining multiplicity. In this light agape strikes as the "highest" progression of love in its subsuming both the oneness of eros and the multiplicity philos - but also the "lowest" grounding of love in that it enables distinct phenomena to exist to begin with.
This level of insight is one we can only hope to bring into our own lives. For even if a fraction might seep through, we’ll all be better off. A million thanks for bringing this lecture series to a public forum John, what a treat.
Imagine showing someone this video and them being like so what lol it’s happens to me with a lot of his lectures but this one is so relatable to everyday relationships
Beautiful. I'm resonating and participating, looking and radically reflecting myself. Recognizing the BS ever deeply whilst remembering agape. Thank you very much for your time and attention.
According to several Christian pastors this is the best presentation on agape -- even though it is presented by a non-believer -- they have ever come across. ---- "Someone had to do it." (Jordan Peterson) ---- "16:00 - Segment on agape. I've had many Christians, including Christian pastors, like Paul VanderKlay, say that was one of the best explanations of agape he'd ever heard."
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:51 *🌌 Jesus, seen as Kairos, deeply involved in the course of history, participating in God's direction.* 03:22 *🔄 Participatory knowing: reciprocal revelation, where you shape and are shaped by culture, language, and history.* 04:45 *🧠 Types of love: Eros (consumptive), Philia (cooperative), Agape (creative, God-like, creating persons).* 07:13 *🌟 Metanoia through Agape: Radical transformation of one's orientation and consciousness.* 16:33 *🤝 Agape's sacrificial element: Giving oneself for another's transformation, forgiveness as central.* 19:09 *🔄 "Born again": A radical transformation of one's entire being, an internalized rebirth.* 23:31 *🌍 Christian community: Offering radical transformation through agape, becoming conduits of God's creative process.* 26:03 *🌟 Saul's transformative experience: Confrontation with Jesus' voice, inner conflict, and profound change.* 27:36 *🔍 Saul's transformative experience: Saul, who became Paul, was taken in by those he intended to persecute, demonstrating a theme of forgiveness and care.* 28:20 *🧠 Agape challenges self-made narratives: Paul's journey highlights the challenge of acknowledging agape, which conflicts with self-directed and self-sustaining views.* 30:13 *📖 Misinterpretation of Paul's message: Paul's famous passage on love (1 Corinthians 13) is often misread at weddings, emphasizing a spiritual, participatory love over romantic love.* 31:48 *💞 Identity transformed by agape: Paul's identity is transformed through agape love, described as a participatory knowing that shapes his being.* 33:09 *💔 Agape vs. romantic love: Agape, unlike romantic love, perseveres and never fails, emphasizing its enduring and transformative nature.* 36:07 *🪞 Knowing through agape: Paul discusses knowing through participation in agape, contrasting it with partial knowledge and a deeper understanding of reality.* 40:02 *🌌 Danger of projection with agape: Paul warns of the danger of projecting one's unknown aspects onto what they love, highlighting a need for self-discovery in participatory relationships.* 44:45 *🌟 Inner conflict and personal transformation: Paul's inner conflict between "old" Saul and "new" Paul symbolizes a personal Exodus, reflecting the tension between law and agape.* 47:51 *🕊️ Christian message of Redemption: Paul's message includes the idea of Jesus' sacrifice to satisfy God's justice, allowing God's love to reach humanity.* Made with HARPA AI
More is needed in the exploration of the appeal and danger of Christianity to those who lack understanding of their own shadow conflict and project it onto others. Self righteous bible thumping drives a wedge between belief and faith, and a conversation is needed to illuminate the differences, in order to elevate the wisdom of the logos beyond blind faith among the evangelicals.
Evening John! Thankyou for the deep insights, you summed up my attraction to Christianity in my early 20s very nicely. A deep inner conflict, a sense of falling short of who I could be and a deep struggle to develop my own personhood. Just riding the waves your thought, I have ears... I listen!
My Country Feedback 🦅 In God We Trust April 8, 2023 Dear Cardinal Mahoney Holy Saturday 2023 Thank you for being a Good Shepard to me for 12 years at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. I learned studied faithfully learned about the mysteries of the Roman Catholic Church while you and Father Kevin Kostelnick and Father Brian Castaneda, and Father Trudea were Administration the Los Angeles Archdiocese. Today I am watching the Stations of the Cross and the Easter Vigil from Rome on worldwide internet in my living room. I sincerely thank you and all of the faithful lay persons, sisters and brothers who helped me and gave me emotional and spiritual support, and strengthened me with your prayers and the sacraments for eleven happy and blessed years. I am celebrating another blessed Easter and remembering 🙏 all of you in my prayers. Sincerely, Me
You made me cry. You also made me remember the film Marvin's Room - the way Diane Keaton's character loves her dying, demented, now child-like father and her entire family even as she's getting worse from leukemia, and how that love transforms everyone around her. I watched it when it came out and I remember it every so often, and each time I'd think: I want to be like that. I want to love like that. And this series of lectures, together with the meditation series, is the way how. All the best, John.
We experience AGAPE to the extent that we FOR-GIVE others. We GIVE to them beFORe they have earned it. Sometimes despite. This way we transform non-humans, into humans.
John does such a great job pointing to nonduality without understanding it. Agape love is the oroboros, God loving itself through an endless chain of becoming a person, giving birth to the next generation, and death. God gives himself to himself continually and sacrificially motivated by love of himself - for the purpose of knowing himself all the more. Jesus (at the very least in the mythological) is the epitome of that - the sacrificial death by God incarnate. It is actually deeper than 'from non-person to person', the transformation is from 'non-God to God'. Indeed, the whole message of the Bible is to 'become one with Christ' - to regain the union with God that was lost in 'the fall'. Through the mythological motif Jesus represents, we too can recognize ourselves as God incarnate. In the Hindu, it is 'one God, many forms'. The reason Jesus tells us to forgive others as a method of salvation is because of the Ego. The Ego is the sense of separate self, and it can be made thicker or thinner based on our reactions to other people. It is 'the fall', the sense of separation from God. Forgiveness, even to 70x7 (never ending completion) is a method of thinning of the Ego. When the ego thins completely, then our sense of self expands to all creation and we recognize our-self as one with God and one with all creation. Your suffering is my suffering, your gain my gain, because you are me... so what else is there to do but to love Myself? This is summed up in the 2 commandments: love the lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. The trick is realizing that all those are the same thing - you, God, your neighbor - all one being playing hide-and-seek with itself for the purpose of loving itself and experiencing separateness. It is the same story with Job - God as God, God as Satan, God as Job, God as the friends, God as the children killed and the bandits killing - some with knowledge of what they are (Job, God, Satan), and many stuck still playing hide and seek consumed by ego and its own sense of righteousness (the wife, friends, bandits, etc.) It is that knowledge that keeps Job from cursing God - why would God curse himself because one form is experiencing suffering? This game of hide and seek is eternal! The language of being 'born again' is very apropos. When the ego thins completely and drops, there is a 'death' as the sense of self, your individual separateness disappears. This can be terrifying... and (depending on how this happens) you might see yourself being born over and over - the endless oroboric cycle beyond time - with the realization of 'oh, I've done this before'. It isn't even that we are 'self made' - it is that there is no 'self' - just the illusion of separation - hide and seek. There is also the deep conflict that Paul feels with this realization. Sometimes the ego creeps up, wants to reign again for a while. You know everyone else still feels like a 'separate self', and you know those patterns, so go ahead - snap at them act like separate self, don't forgive or love just this once. God is used to hide and seek, and a little bit more participation in that game won't hurt - right? "Reality is a conflict between justice and Agape" - There is a reason that the archtype of 'Satan' is 'the accuser'. The god that the west no longer believes in is a 'separate god' - that is, the god that made a bunch of stuff and walked away letting it suffer. This is the god that the church turned to. The God that must replace this is the nondualistic understanding - God in and through and with all creation, animating its every atom in a glorious dance for its own pleasure - a God who's consciousness we each share in part. To find this God, we must see the divinity in those around us and agape love them.
Bob Brenton with this belief though, what argument can be given that god wishes to experience agape vs diversity and novelty. It seems this God would enjoy novelty quite a bit... of course we could use the world and its reflection as a good vehicle to proffer that agape and beauty and symbiosis are sought. But certainly diversity and novelty are too. And convergence. And often a justice like process that reclaims balance. Every form of life other than ours has seemingly no conscious guilt over consuming as we do.. what do we say of this? And what it could lead us to surmise then of this God experiencing itself? I suppose you could say as we are seemingly the newer species on the block, the ones with the current highest levels of consciousness. And this is being a process, we being newest entry thus far - god possibly seemingly has a road laid out like Jacobs ladder. Where the snake starts as the tail and becomes the head, through “time”, only to eat the tail and begin again... 😁 I guess I’ll stop “talking” out loud there, thanks for your comment, I enjoyed what it peaked in my mind.
>what argument can be given that god wishes to experience agape vs diversity and novelty. I think both are relevant. According to biblical teaching, all things are set up so that all people are drawn towards God... but there is also plenty of teaching about creation being for his Glory and Delight and that includes all the bad stuff. >Every form of life other than ours has seemingly no conscious guilt over consuming as we do.. what do we say of this? We are the only form of life (that we know of) that is capable of knowing God. A cat will always be just a cat until the day it dies. We can see the other side of the veil - which is what the mystics are doing and words like 'enlightenment' point to - that is knowing both our humanity and divinity. It is the small voice inside us that draws us to God, and guilt is that small voice ratcheting it up a notch. It is basically yelling "your ego is getting thicker, go the other way"! >I suppose you could say as we are seemingly the newer species on the block, the ones with the current highest levels of consciousness. I think there are other realms we are not privy to with 'higher level' species. The difference between them and us is they probably know exactly what they are - a divine manifestation - from the very beginning. Lower level species can never know what they are - stuck at being merely animals. We are that happy medium - capable of everything from animalistic thoughtless depravity to angelic heights. As the psalmist says "what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him, you made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor". I do want to stress too that nonduality is not meer belief. It is experienced - this is what the monks are trying to find by meditating, what the dervish people are finding by spinning around and around, what the shamans seek with ayahuasca and other psychedelics, what Jesus found after 40 days wandering in the desert, what near-death experiences point to, etc etc. It feels like death and your world will never look the same again... but the peace, contentment, freedom, lack of concern it brings is beyond measure. People do those things because there are traditions that show they have immense value - Jesus even tells his disciples to leave everyone / everything to follow him. To give you an example of how profound this experience is, I literally delivered one of my children with no other help around. That is a transcendent experience but it was less intense than the mystical experience. The mystical experience is easily on equal footing with birth / death / marriage and I would choose it over all the world's riches. Rags + mystical experience vs. Anything and the rags win every time.
Bob Brenton thanks again for your reply. I would agree with the rags. It would seem however you continue to contend a disability for a justification of any sort of ethics, which is what I was getting at with those points you replied to.
@@BenEddy > It would seem however you continue to contend a disability for a justification of any sort of ethics, which is what I was getting at with those points you replied to. I want to make sure I understand what you are saying, so forgive me if I'm interpreting the sentence incorrectly. It seems as though you are asking about ethics from the position of nonduality... like do they exist, what is the relationship between nonduality and ethics, etc. The best I've been able to work out is something like 'ethical behavior is that which thins your ego'. The Bible has lots of guidance, but most of it boils down to a continual denial of self, put others ahead of you, seek peace even if you are justified in retribution, etc. I think it is that mode of living life that allows the ego to drop without it slaying you completely. For Saul / Paul, the death of ego and awakening experience caused blindness for some period of time. I am speculating, but perhaps that dramatic experience had something to do with the unethical persecution of Christians - indeed Paul often referred to himself as the least in the kingdom. There is a saying about the relationship between enlightenment and religious practice, and I think it applies to ethical living as well. The seeker of a mystical experience often finds it by accident - but having a practice (living ethically) makes you accident prone.
Bob Brenton if consciousness wishes to experience through this dream, why go through these measures of removing belief in the dream? And what reasoning could support your doing so? Why attempt to absolve yourself back to godlike consciousness when clearly in this sense you were meant for human consciousness so “god” could experience that vs experiencing something more akin to itself. In your analogy “god” would enjoy far more the ones who accepted their experience. “Enlightenment” and our seeking it would seemingly be actually counter productive towards gods aims in this way would it not? Also you are pulling your non dual belief system from the Bible rather than eastern thought? Again I bring up this line of questioning just because the way we imagine “Gods” motives, naturally will affect our own and our ability for justifications.
I have been avoiding rewatching this specific video again - it kept popping up in my algo so many times that I started to become irritated with it. Eventually it stopped popping up and I didn't notice when exactly that happened but it's symbolic in a way, I may have been pushing away love or becoming a bit distant and almost cut off from it, But God started to show me something in the way that only He can do and in the way that I recognize quickly that it is none other but God talking and a few other things converged and then I had a realization at some point - which stood out to me as a question which was - Is this agape?- so I asked myself that and my intuition instantly revealed a yes in response and then I thought of where I could go to get a bit more information to refresh my mind a bit and get clarity and I knew exactly what to type into TH-cam search and it was you and this specific video of course and now I am busy receiving even more than I expected. Funny how things work. God is good. God bless you John, as always! Thank you Sir. I am so grateful for you ❤ sending love
Being in the proces of rediscovering Jezus, not as the Churches depict him though, this episode very strongly resonates with me and I am deeply grateful for this.
tbh I think the Churches are awakening themselves from their power trip, and actually rediscovering some of this through the lens of transformation psychology.
This lecture reminds me of a dream I had last night. A young child took me by the hand and told me "I can take you there." Though I can't say where "there" was I knew exactly what he meant. We left on a train and as we approached the destination my dream became more and more vivid until the dream was indistinguishable from reality. We arrived at a small town in the desert situated at a crossroads. There I came upon a family who had lost their daughter. Except she was alive and well. I became overwhelmed with happiness to see that the little girl had been returned to life. I wept with joy as I pushed her on a swing. It brings tears to my eyes to think about it now.
This makes me remember how for years after my travels in Greece, I called Meteora , Metanoia, so for years I described this beautiful place and what I saw and what I realized and how I felt and what I experienced there as well as spreading some of my mom's ashes there with a good friend of mine and it was during a tour with a group of others who also experienced Meteora's beauty and also visited the monasteries together. My experience in both Delphi (I also spread some of my mom's ashes Into the site where there's the Arena and oracle) and Meteora was deeply transformative for me, I gained some type of understanding and I had a huge sense of that what is bigger than but deep and immense and heartfelt yet bursting out the seems of beauty. For years and still now, I cannot describe accurately with words or photographs but I will always have the memory and the shared experience with that friend of mine who was supportive and interested and on if not the same then similar journey unlike any other, borrowing from Jordan, the Jist, of that entire existence in that portion of our travels communicated to me in a language I cannot describe but yet it is one I can in a small way replicate to transfer the jist to others in a way that they understand, often resulting in them being so intrigued by wanting to go there to experience this. It's a tad funny how I have been encouraging people to go to Greece , emphasizing on how they won't get a full trip without going inland to Delphi and Metanoia ! Little did I know, up til last year I suppose, that I was mistakingly exchanging the word Meteora with Metanoia and I had not noticed through the years how I would interchangeably use them. It's quite incredible what simply realizing that mistake opened up, it is as if it opened up a capsule of memory stored way deeper and through practice I come closer to channeling it. A new avenue through distinction was created and that allowed what was blocked slightly by the error or oversight to become perceived and explored and relived which had and has provided me with a new insight and perspective at least, possibly even a direction for certain couped up thoughts to flow more freely and come into reason. But I am also thinking that I experienced agape, but i do not know for sure. This course is something that is helping my mind. I truly appreciate it. I wish I could show more support. I'd love to send you a copy of my book I wrote years and years ago inscribed to you , I have been inspired to decide to go for creating a second book as well. Thank you.
amazing I will have to listen to this talk several to even begin to understand it partially , you have answered a lot of questions for me , thank you John
That’s why Jesus and Paul say “treat others as you would have them treat you,” because that commences a process of self-discovery and growing awareness of the need of transformation by the power of God’s in dwelling spirit. There is always tension between justice and mercy overarched by compassion in God’s character as God reveals to Moses in Ex 33, 34.
I haven't attended enough weddings in the last 20 years . I don't remember, in my life, anyone ever using the passages you quote from 1 Cor. for wedding inspirations. Maybe the people I know were afraid to set the bar too damn high. I didn't use it for mine, anyway. But I did use it for my mother's funeral a few years back. 1 Cor. 13 all verses. For all the pain, stupidity, etc. we as a family inflicted on ourselves we had what Paul refers to as Agape love. That must be why I am so wonderfully well - adjusted. We had Love in our home. I probably should have explained why I chose that passage for a funeral, but I didn't and now I'm glad. When people remember Mother's funeral I hope they remember that, if nothing else. All respect to everybody's pain and preference, but I think there is a lot too much talking at funerals these days. That was a good video on "Christian self - alienation" Personally, I'm not real happy with what I'm hearing about the "good and evil" aspects of God. I'm deeply suspicious of Jung's " Answer to Job". And one of these damn days I hope to break this "code of dialectic" that Hegel crystallized so long ago. They are 2 big problems: What is the shadow that seems to demand integration? And what is this "relation to Otherness" that Hegel tried to schematize ?
Every time John raises his voice to make an important point, it reminds me of Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder) accusing Grandpa Joe and Charlie of stealing Fizzy Lifting Drinks and kicking them out of the office without their lifetime supply of chocolate. "Good day, Sir!!" Lol
Reality being absurd without God seems to be one of the best arguments for there being a God. Absurdity of reality without God necessitates there being a God. God being necessary would then mean man cannot live/be without God, therefore God must be real.
Have you been watching the videos in order or did you skip to this one? I have been listening to this series of lectures in order. What a treasure trove of knowledge. I am torn between hating technology and what it has done to people and being thankful that I am able to listen and learn from great minds. I just wish more people used the technology for better purposes.
I'm always looking for new interesting lectures on Psychology/Philosophy, please let me know if you guys have any recommendations, would be highly appreciated
I don’t think Christians misread this passage at weddings and that’s the only line I’ve heard in this series where I would accuse you of hubris for saying so. To be a Christian is to seek to be United with Christ totally in every relationship. Where our romantic love, is not destroyed, but is perfected into love which properly shows the divine image, agape, the love of the Lamb slain.
This is so much like a real-world uni. lecture. As of now (06.03.22) 330k people have watched the first episode, 41k have watched this, and 10k people have watched the 45th episode. As the semester progresses fewer and fewer students are attending the lectures...
He's at war with Agape itself Radical transformative experience Participatory kind of knowing Agape can't fail Super saliency of candy and toys Participatory Love
I wonder what your perspective is on the the thinkers of the Orthodox Church, Maximos the Confessor, Justin Popovich, Seraphim Rose among others? Having listened and thoroughly enjoyed 10+ of these episodes, and greatly looking forward to listening to the rest, I noticed no mention of the. Perhaps it is because this was focused on the development of "western culture". When you mentioned the Great Schism in episode 19 and the protestant reformation later on, it made me wonder whether the meaning crisis only applied to the western world and not to the east, or at least not to the Eastern Orthodox Christians? Listening to these lectures has been so profound and helped me to understand how people like Descarte and Hobbs have left us cut off from our own experience. Having recently converted Orthodoxy Christianity, I see ways in which the Eastern Orthodox thinkers offer ways of thinking and various means of healing the fissures of mind and experience left upon us by the western thinkers.
There were some fantastic insights here, though I have a difficult time understanding how one can give even a secular interpretation of Christianity without highlighting Christ's resurrection.
I'd just argue that he isn't trying to give a secular interpretation of christianity though. I'd say that he's building up strength and core events to get to our meaning crisis we're having today, as it seems like he's gonna argue in the future. And I think it's also important to acknowledge this as it may be "dangerous" to interpret his words into something he's actually not claiming to say. :) just a thought
@@huub3rr You are right sir. He's taking his listeners through a journey/process- without which most people, including many Christians, lacks the understanding of the Christian faith.
I feel the need to point out that in the King James Version of 1 Corinthians 13, instead of saying “love never fails”, it says “charity never faileth”. That whole section uses “charity” instead of love, because, as you state, agape is not the same kind of love as the other types. Moroni 7:47 in the Book of Mormon further explains the difference. It says “But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him”. You are correct in pointing out the use of agape, but in the Church of Jesus Christ, we use the word charity for agape. I think there’d be less confusion amongst Christians if more people understood charity that way.
36:32 What does he mean by the sentence, "We will come to know as 'we are known'"? I get that agape opens reality to us, helps us see reality in a truer way, but what is this special mode of "being known" that is opened up in agapic relatedness to the world?
I would like to point out a few things: According to Christian belief, Jesus didn't just exemplify the forgiveness though sacrifice, his sacrifice WAS God's forgiveness. It sounds like a subtle distinction, but it's the difference between Jesus being a representation of God's forgiveness, and Jesus actually being God, and enacting that forgiveness himself. Likewise, it makes sense that early Christians were called 'Follower of The Way' because Jesus called himself 'the way, the truth and the life' so basically they are already calling themselves 'Followers of Jesus', so basically just an early version of Christian anyway. Different, yes, but very similar meaning overall.
I promised myself I would rewatch this series while taking notes and getting the books listed, and so far the re-visit has been even more fulfilling than my first go-around over a year ago. Erich Fromm, Nishitani, Tillich, Barfield and so many other writers have been enlightening me in ways like never before. This is the youtube series that keeps on giving.
This is my firm intention too. I'm here on my pass.
These lectures are so profound. My two years of uni lectures do not come close to Vervaeke's.
I'm thinking of doing the same too. This is my first pass yet.
I am planing to do the same.
@@mist273 same as well
John, as a believer I so appreciate your respect, care and diligence in this video. Each video I say wow this one is the best! However each Friday I have to recant my previous statement. Outstanding work and your respect for the content is so deeply appreciated. Well done Sir!!!
@@RickDelmonico care to elaborate?
Rick D. I’ll take that as a “no”
@@RickDelmonico yikes. It seems to me there is only one person here with an "I've got this shit figured out" attitude. I'm well aware of Missler's answer to your "4 gospels" question. I don't have any ill will towards you; I was genuinely curious why you think you have a superior understanding of the Bible, why is it so "clear from listening to this lecture", and why that was your response to this brief video which only mentions John and Paul and makes no attempt to explain the synoptic gospels, let alone the entire Bible or even the New Testament. I am a humble student with plenty to learn--you appear to be in some pain, I hope you feel better soon. God Bless.
@@josephmays1609don’t type sh*t and say god bless at the same time. Which one is it do you fear God or not?
“God is creating the future: He’s creating the historical process and course of history that makes people possible. See, agape is the kind of love that creates persons... the way a parent loves a child... by loving that non-person, you turn it into a person... it’s a God-like ability that we have to participate through love in another being. We can transform that being from a non-person into a person.”
Beautifully said, that moved me to tears!
I appreciate you picking this quote out and posting it here.
Tears here to 🙏🥲. I’ve never heard Jesus explained in quite this way. Very profound.
I spent my life up to this point swearing against religion. I have even succeeded in turning people away from their faith in times of doubt and I actually thought I was doing them a favor. I now realize that I was only a pawn to my own prejudice, ego, and self-centered perspective. I thought I knew what was behind the door without even opening it. I now truly understand that I was blind and alone because that was how I was raised, alone and in the dark. I simply could not comprehend the meaning of honest unconditional love and therefore could only believe in it as a fantasy, a lie. I have only made the world a worse place without realizing it and I am sorry. I truly hope the best for everyone in this insane world we have created for ourselves. I will become a better person moving forward.
@@joshsmith8066 Peace be with you. I hope you can find and participate in the kind of love John V. is talking about. Your comment was deeply moving. All the best to you.
@@joshsmith8066 it’s not just you. Our whole culture makes us blind to this insight whilst at the same time being founded on it. I’m hopeful John and people like him can help us find the language to talk about this again.
Absolutely inspired by your concept and explanation of agape. I have been a Christian for a long time and always believed God is Love but somehow your understanding has lit a new flame in my heart.
Thank You John
Wow, just wow. Thank you
You sir, have become a personal kairos to me, fundamentally changing my modal existence. What a transforming series to say the least. Can’t thank you enough.
That was AMAZING.
I am so moved by this. It's a sense of both awe and relief. Navigating these concepts is so heart-wrenchingly, brain-crunchingly difficult and has tormented and uplifted me in a dizzying dance for huge chunks of my life. Your insights weave for the first time a clear path through these greatbighuge ideas and conflicts. I am awed constantly by the fact that this series exists.
Each episode leaves my jaw closer to the floor than the previous one. Thank you, John. A million times, thank you.
I'm so grateful for your existence, professor Vervaeke.
I’ve left the Christian faith for about 3 years now and hearing John read that passage from Corinthians brought me to tears.
I struggle with the "magic language" of the church. Framing eros, phileo, and agape in this accessible way is so appreciated. And FORgiving! Yes!
100%. After I left the damaging Christian cult I was raised in, I made a hard fork to capital "A" atheism, which turns out to just be a knee-jerk reaction to religious fundamentalism. What a relief to have access to intellectuals like Jung, Campbell, Peterson, and Vervaeke to help us see the truth in the myth, and understand a proper interpretation of what our ancestors were desperately trying to tell us.
@@Eric.Morrison 🌊
@@Eric.Morrison Right on brother, atheism is the equivalent of self-denial and as you say, it is a perfect response to cult formation, but not it's transcendent. The ancient texts point to is a caution against blind mass formation, or the "madness of crowds". Cynical cult leaders understand this, but as we know it is about power and control.
I like to say, if it is empowering the individual then it is a religion. If it is dis-empowering the individual at the expense of a cult leader then it is a cult. Atheism does not empower the individual, so I do see it as a cult, especially when taken to extremes such as the Chinese state which is mandated to be 100% atheist, which means, you worship the cult leader instead. CCP is a good example of an atheist cult. The soviet union and Nazi Germany were also atheist cults, that sometimes used religious symbology in a deeply cynical way.
Thank you for sharing your insight and knowledge.
Prof. Vervaeke: I learned so much from all your lectures and thoughts. I observed that your passion and love for truth is felt in this lecture. I feel your struggle to want that Jesus love but still struggling to not allow your self to surrender to it. Inner conflict with god. I hear anger ( frustration)and little pushing away of what you crave. I grow up with foundational religion and I resist the god that was shoved down my throat. I love and respect your process and will continue with lectures. You are already a saint don’t worry about finding god at the level of mind.
I can't pull apart your teachings from the meaning they represent to me, kind of quoting the lessons ☺️.
You're amazing, John. Thanks for sharing such a wonderful path with us.
It is life changing.
It is.
This lecture is so great. I feel and understand the concept of 'agape', and open up my mind to my ancestors and parents who made me a human being from an animal. I used to have a very bad relationship with my mother. But I feel I can leave the hatred aside. Thank you John for explaining the agape concept.
I need to listen to these lectures 2 or 3 times.
Mat it gets better each time 👌🏻
I keep watching these videos, because he is making clearer so much of history and philosophy, and he starts each one so calm, and I hope, this time he won't yell, and then he always starts yelling.
I’ve never heard agape explained like this. Thank you for this series. It’s a pleasure listening to you give context, trace the history of these ideas, and weave it all together.
*The Psychological Significance of the Bible by John Vervaeke*
Jordan’s got nothing on him. No offense intended.
@@brodyeckblad7413 maybe jordan just explains it differently. But I feel like I understand things better with john maybe it's because he made a lecture series connecting the dots for us.
Not a competition ;)
Both have value in and of and for the sake of
Thank YOU! For my time 😊 aaand attention! 🤗🤗🤗
John, thank you for this amazing series. I was doing a transparency to opacity shift today on the subject of Agape. Looking at the various features from my old framing of this word. This sense of For-Giveness, to show love to someone before they 'earn' it...before they have shown love to you perhaps. That it helps them develop into 'person hood.' I can see many beautiful things about looking at Agape this way.
I've also experienced a dangerous way this can be used within a Cult I was raised in. Perhaps you can spot the subtle but important differences from what you're presenting here? In the cult, you would find yourself in an Agent Arena relationship where you are loved 'only' for your potential future self. You did not deserve love as you were, so you did everything you could to conform yourself to their Gestalt. You do this in hopes that one day you might actually be loved and valued in the present moment. The predicament with this orientation though, is that the future self was never reached. As we know, there is always a better future self. Life is always in the process of change. So a person would be endlessly trapped desperately chasing a mirage that could never be reached. Some future version that would be worthy, valued and loved as is. There was a definite illusion of some Perfect 'final version' of yourself that would be attained one day. Reminds me of the 'Having Mode". Perhaps this dilemma is 'Modal Confusion'?
I have been developing a new framing around love and its relationship to growth. Realizing that we are always 'Becoming' has helped me stop trying to attain some Top of the Mountain in hopes that I will finally be accepted. Instead, what if you loved and valued yourself and other life forms(human or not) as it is? As life that is naturally in the process of change. Needing no justification. Life is, so choose love. What if you loved and valued the nature of life as it is and because it is, Being Process. And that love is what welcomed you, in your process, to enjoy and value the Being mode. To enjoy a playful flow of the process of learning and gaining wisdom. Yes even the mistakes, crashes and missing the marks. It's all part of the process. We know that great accelerated learning happens in a playful flow state and we know that with continued learning and gained wisdom, we will be afforded increased ability and capacity to adapt with the constant of change. Hopefully, through both changing things 'that we can change' in our environment and changing our mental framing in relationship to the 'things we cannot change', we will be able to improve the experience of life for ourselves and other living creatures. Why would we want to improve the experience of life, because we love all the living parts of life.
Really profound content here John, wonderful education. Thank you so much
What a gorgeous lecture. The best interpretation of Christianity I have encountered thus far.
11:38 - "You are no longer the center of your salience landscape. The child is."
17:20 - Defining "forgiveness."
this is pure gold
Ok, Paul VanDerKlay, have fun with this one! And when you do, I’d love to know if you think that John Vervake, JBP, and other non-Christians are in some ways better at articulating Christian values than our own priesthood of believers... IMHO, at least in this secular generation, it seems to be so.
VERY interesting comment. To be honest though isnt that sort of always the way it goes? The old authority slowly grows corrupt and the interpretation of scripture loses its relevance in day to day lives until a maverick comes along and says the emperor has no clothes and ya'll MAY have been reading this wrong...
svjsfgh , perhaps part of it is the lingo... the “Christian-ese” the church relies upon creates a barrier to articulation within the world’s framework. When someone like Vervake then describes the same glorious truths to which we have become numb (just like when Vervake describes the Christian “ground” beneath our feet as generally despised) we hear the glory renewed... just a thought!
@@shannonrosengarth8874 More than just a thought--an astute one at that! It reminded me how Paul and the Gospels--in particular John--used Greek language and thought to subvert the prevailing paradigm. Especially John's use of the Greek concept of Logos does exactly this. And yet that language has fossilized in the Church because we equate doctrinal orthodoxy with linguistic and cultural orthodoxy. Good point!
This was a far superior articulation than what I am used to hearing/reading within the world of Christianese speakers.
I've only developed a respect for Christianity through non-religious people expressing what is in the depths of these ideas. I think modern religion (generally) is failing massively at demonstrating, or even understanding the actual truth, or value of their belief systems to a somewhat scientifically minded modern audience. I believe that the modern westerner needs to hear Christianity dissected in psychological terms and the mythology needs to be explained in rational terms. Most people laugh at these kinds of metaphysical claims nowadays, and I feel comfortable saying that most people do not understand or respect mythology - which they really should do to some extent
Deeply clarifying lecture, if all is to be accepted. I cannot wait for what is yet to come! Thank you, as always, John!
Had to come back here after hearing Pageau's definition of love as a multiplicity joining a single purpose to exist as one, without destroying the initial the multiplicity - existence as both as a whole and a communion of distinct parts. It is useful to combine this with your elucidation of eros as consumptively doing away with multiplicity, and philos as working toward a unified goal while maintaining multiplicity. In this light agape strikes as the "highest" progression of love in its subsuming both the oneness of eros and the multiplicity philos - but also the "lowest" grounding of love in that it enables distinct phenomena to exist to begin with.
Thanks for that comment I had not drawn that connection but it is very astute.
"existence as both as a whole and a communion of distinct parts" - What do you mean by this line?
Just sat down and this popped up - awesome .. great work many thanks
Chris Whitelaw I highly recommend the rest of the series
@@andrewhurst5511 Many thanks, i've been aware of John for a few years now, very valuable guy i think .. Cheers
Thank you for your time and dedication.
This level of insight is one we can only hope to bring into our own lives. For even if a fraction might seep through, we’ll all be better off. A million thanks for bringing this lecture series to a public forum John, what a treat.
As a follower of the most excellent Way via A Course in Miracles John's lectures have been an invaluable addition for me.. Thank you John 🙏
Personally, I find this profound.
Imagine showing someone this video and them being like so what lol it’s happens to me with a lot of his lectures but this one is so relatable to everyday relationships
@@israelallen6430 "there are none so blind as those who will not see."
Beautiful. I'm resonating and participating, looking and radically reflecting myself. Recognizing the BS ever deeply whilst remembering agape. Thank you very much for your time and attention.
i cannot get enough of this series... amazing!
According to several Christian pastors this is the best presentation on agape -- even though it is presented by a non-believer -- they have ever come across. ---- "Someone had to do it." (Jordan Peterson) ---- "16:00 - Segment on agape. I've had many Christians, including Christian pastors, like Paul VanderKlay, say that was one of the best explanations of agape he'd ever heard."
This is superb - thank you, John - I am deeply grateful for your insight into Christianity and the experience of gnosis. So helpful
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:51 *🌌 Jesus, seen as Kairos, deeply involved in the course of history, participating in God's direction.*
03:22 *🔄 Participatory knowing: reciprocal revelation, where you shape and are shaped by culture, language, and history.*
04:45 *🧠 Types of love: Eros (consumptive), Philia (cooperative), Agape (creative, God-like, creating persons).*
07:13 *🌟 Metanoia through Agape: Radical transformation of one's orientation and consciousness.*
16:33 *🤝 Agape's sacrificial element: Giving oneself for another's transformation, forgiveness as central.*
19:09 *🔄 "Born again": A radical transformation of one's entire being, an internalized rebirth.*
23:31 *🌍 Christian community: Offering radical transformation through agape, becoming conduits of God's creative process.*
26:03 *🌟 Saul's transformative experience: Confrontation with Jesus' voice, inner conflict, and profound change.*
27:36 *🔍 Saul's transformative experience: Saul, who became Paul, was taken in by those he intended to persecute, demonstrating a theme of forgiveness and care.*
28:20 *🧠 Agape challenges self-made narratives: Paul's journey highlights the challenge of acknowledging agape, which conflicts with self-directed and self-sustaining views.*
30:13 *📖 Misinterpretation of Paul's message: Paul's famous passage on love (1 Corinthians 13) is often misread at weddings, emphasizing a spiritual, participatory love over romantic love.*
31:48 *💞 Identity transformed by agape: Paul's identity is transformed through agape love, described as a participatory knowing that shapes his being.*
33:09 *💔 Agape vs. romantic love: Agape, unlike romantic love, perseveres and never fails, emphasizing its enduring and transformative nature.*
36:07 *🪞 Knowing through agape: Paul discusses knowing through participation in agape, contrasting it with partial knowledge and a deeper understanding of reality.*
40:02 *🌌 Danger of projection with agape: Paul warns of the danger of projecting one's unknown aspects onto what they love, highlighting a need for self-discovery in participatory relationships.*
44:45 *🌟 Inner conflict and personal transformation: Paul's inner conflict between "old" Saul and "new" Paul symbolizes a personal Exodus, reflecting the tension between law and agape.*
47:51 *🕊️ Christian message of Redemption: Paul's message includes the idea of Jesus' sacrifice to satisfy God's justice, allowing God's love to reach humanity.*
Made with HARPA AI
More is needed in the exploration of the appeal and danger of Christianity to those who lack understanding of their own shadow conflict and project it onto others. Self righteous bible thumping drives a wedge between belief and faith, and a conversation is needed to illuminate the differences, in order to elevate the wisdom of the logos beyond blind faith among the evangelicals.
Evening John! Thankyou for the deep insights, you summed up my attraction to Christianity in my early 20s very nicely. A deep inner conflict, a sense of falling short of who I could be and a deep struggle to develop my own personhood.
Just riding the waves your thought, I have ears... I listen!
36:00 - 38:00 note to self; participatory love, coming to know as we are known.
My Country Feedback 🦅
In God We Trust
April 8, 2023
Dear Cardinal Mahoney
Holy Saturday 2023
Thank you for being a Good Shepard to me for 12 years at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels.
I learned studied faithfully learned about the mysteries of the Roman Catholic Church while you and Father Kevin Kostelnick and Father Brian Castaneda, and Father Trudea were Administration the Los Angeles Archdiocese.
Today I am watching the Stations of the Cross and the Easter Vigil from Rome on worldwide internet in my living room.
I sincerely thank you and all of the faithful lay persons, sisters and brothers who helped me and gave me emotional and spiritual support, and strengthened me with your prayers and the sacraments for eleven happy and blessed years.
I am celebrating another blessed Easter and remembering 🙏 all of you in my prayers.
Sincerely,
Me
Super interesting lecture thank you 🙏
Following your way of awakening from the meaning crisis is really an amazing experience, John.
wow, i never made that connection before. the love that a parent is giving is different than the love that the child is receiving
You made me cry. You also made me remember the film Marvin's Room - the way Diane Keaton's character loves her dying, demented, now child-like father and her entire family even as she's getting worse from leukemia, and how that love transforms everyone around her. I watched it when it came out and I remember it every so often, and each time I'd think: I want to be like that. I want to love like that. And this series of lectures, together with the meditation series, is the way how. All the best, John.
Preach It, Brother! ;-)
38:30 - 39:00 Very powerful. Well said
I deeply appreciate YOUR time JV ❤️🍄 I can’t wait to complete this so i can slowly do it again with note taking
Such passion for wisdom and sharing that with your audience, thank you John you are a gift to knowledge and learning
This was fantastic. There's a depth here that's so rare to find, especially on TH-cam. Looking forward to hearing more of your teachings.
We experience AGAPE to the extent that we FOR-GIVE others.
We GIVE to them beFORe they have earned it. Sometimes despite.
This way we transform non-humans, into humans.
John does such a great job pointing to nonduality without understanding it. Agape love is the oroboros, God loving itself through an endless chain of becoming a person, giving birth to the next generation, and death. God gives himself to himself continually and sacrificially motivated by love of himself - for the purpose of knowing himself all the more. Jesus (at the very least in the mythological) is the epitome of that - the sacrificial death by God incarnate.
It is actually deeper than 'from non-person to person', the transformation is from 'non-God to God'. Indeed, the whole message of the Bible is to 'become one with Christ' - to regain the union with God that was lost in 'the fall'. Through the mythological motif Jesus represents, we too can recognize ourselves as God incarnate. In the Hindu, it is 'one God, many forms'.
The reason Jesus tells us to forgive others as a method of salvation is because of the Ego. The Ego is the sense of separate self, and it can be made thicker or thinner based on our reactions to other people. It is 'the fall', the sense of separation from God. Forgiveness, even to 70x7 (never ending completion) is a method of thinning of the Ego. When the ego thins completely, then our sense of self expands to all creation and we recognize our-self as one with God and one with all creation. Your suffering is my suffering, your gain my gain, because you are me... so what else is there to do but to love Myself?
This is summed up in the 2 commandments: love the lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself. The trick is realizing that all those are the same thing - you, God, your neighbor - all one being playing hide-and-seek with itself for the purpose of loving itself and experiencing separateness.
It is the same story with Job - God as God, God as Satan, God as Job, God as the friends, God as the children killed and the bandits killing - some with knowledge of what they are (Job, God, Satan), and many stuck still playing hide and seek consumed by ego and its own sense of righteousness (the wife, friends, bandits, etc.) It is that knowledge that keeps Job from cursing God - why would God curse himself because one form is experiencing suffering? This game of hide and seek is eternal!
The language of being 'born again' is very apropos. When the ego thins completely and drops, there is a 'death' as the sense of self, your individual separateness disappears. This can be terrifying... and (depending on how this happens) you might see yourself being born over and over - the endless oroboric cycle beyond time - with the realization of 'oh, I've done this before'. It isn't even that we are 'self made' - it is that there is no 'self' - just the illusion of separation - hide and seek.
There is also the deep conflict that Paul feels with this realization. Sometimes the ego creeps up, wants to reign again for a while. You know everyone else still feels like a 'separate self', and you know those patterns, so go ahead - snap at them act like separate self, don't forgive or love just this once. God is used to hide and seek, and a little bit more participation in that game won't hurt - right?
"Reality is a conflict between justice and Agape" - There is a reason that the archtype of 'Satan' is 'the accuser'.
The god that the west no longer believes in is a 'separate god' - that is, the god that made a bunch of stuff and walked away letting it suffer. This is the god that the church turned to.
The God that must replace this is the nondualistic understanding - God in and through and with all creation, animating its every atom in a glorious dance for its own pleasure - a God who's consciousness we each share in part. To find this God, we must see the divinity in those around us and agape love them.
Bob Brenton with this belief though, what argument can be given that god wishes to experience agape vs diversity and novelty. It seems this God would enjoy novelty quite a bit... of course we could use the world and its reflection as a good vehicle to proffer that agape and beauty and symbiosis are sought. But certainly diversity and novelty are too. And convergence. And often a justice like process that reclaims balance. Every form of life other than ours has seemingly no conscious guilt over consuming as we do.. what do we say of this? And what it could lead us to surmise then of this God experiencing itself? I suppose you could say as we are seemingly the newer species on the block, the ones with the current highest levels of consciousness. And this is being a process, we being newest entry thus far - god possibly seemingly has a road laid out like Jacobs ladder. Where the snake starts as the tail and becomes the head, through “time”, only to eat the tail and begin again... 😁 I guess I’ll stop “talking” out loud there, thanks for your comment, I enjoyed what it peaked in my mind.
>what argument can be given that god wishes to experience agape vs diversity and novelty.
I think both are relevant. According to biblical teaching, all things are set up so that all people are drawn towards God... but there is also plenty of teaching about creation being for his Glory and Delight and that includes all the bad stuff.
>Every form of life other than ours has seemingly no conscious guilt over consuming as we do.. what do we say of this?
We are the only form of life (that we know of) that is capable of knowing God. A cat will always be just a cat until the day it dies. We can see the other side of the veil - which is what the mystics are doing and words like 'enlightenment' point to - that is knowing both our humanity and divinity. It is the small voice inside us that draws us to God, and guilt is that small voice ratcheting it up a notch. It is basically yelling "your ego is getting thicker, go the other way"!
>I suppose you could say as we are seemingly the newer species on the block, the ones with the current highest levels of consciousness.
I think there are other realms we are not privy to with 'higher level' species. The difference between them and us is they probably know exactly what they are - a divine manifestation - from the very beginning. Lower level species can never know what they are - stuck at being merely animals. We are that happy medium - capable of everything from animalistic thoughtless depravity to angelic heights. As the psalmist says "what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him, you made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor".
I do want to stress too that nonduality is not meer belief. It is experienced - this is what the monks are trying to find by meditating, what the dervish people are finding by spinning around and around, what the shamans seek with ayahuasca and other psychedelics, what Jesus found after 40 days wandering in the desert, what near-death experiences point to, etc etc. It feels like death and your world will never look the same again... but the peace, contentment, freedom, lack of concern it brings is beyond measure. People do those things because there are traditions that show they have immense value - Jesus even tells his disciples to leave everyone / everything to follow him.
To give you an example of how profound this experience is, I literally delivered one of my children with no other help around. That is a transcendent experience but it was less intense than the mystical experience. The mystical experience is easily on equal footing with birth / death / marriage and I would choose it over all the world's riches. Rags + mystical experience vs. Anything and the rags win every time.
Bob Brenton thanks again for your reply. I would agree with the rags. It would seem however you continue to contend a disability for a justification of any sort of ethics, which is what I was getting at with those points you replied to.
@@BenEddy > It would seem however you continue to contend a disability for a justification of any sort of ethics, which is what I was getting at with those points you replied to.
I want to make sure I understand what you are saying, so forgive me if I'm interpreting the sentence incorrectly. It seems as though you are asking about ethics from the position of nonduality... like do they exist, what is the relationship between nonduality and ethics, etc.
The best I've been able to work out is something like 'ethical behavior is that which thins your ego'. The Bible has lots of guidance, but most of it boils down to a continual denial of self, put others ahead of you, seek peace even if you are justified in retribution, etc. I think it is that mode of living life that allows the ego to drop without it slaying you completely.
For Saul / Paul, the death of ego and awakening experience caused blindness for some period of time. I am speculating, but perhaps that dramatic experience had something to do with the unethical persecution of Christians - indeed Paul often referred to himself as the least in the kingdom.
There is a saying about the relationship between enlightenment and religious practice, and I think it applies to ethical living as well. The seeker of a mystical experience often finds it by accident - but having a practice (living ethically) makes you accident prone.
Bob Brenton if consciousness wishes to experience through this dream, why go through these measures of removing belief in the dream? And what reasoning could support your doing so? Why attempt to absolve yourself back to godlike consciousness when clearly in this sense you were meant for human consciousness so “god” could experience that vs experiencing something more akin to itself. In your analogy “god” would enjoy far more the ones who accepted their experience. “Enlightenment” and our seeking it would seemingly be actually counter productive towards gods aims in this way would it not? Also you are pulling your non dual belief system from the Bible rather than eastern thought? Again I bring up this line of questioning just because the way we imagine “Gods” motives, naturally will affect our own and our ability for justifications.
Thanks for changing up your look, John! I appreciate it!
Thank you John. I hold your work in reverence.
This is SO EXTREMELY helpful! Thank you!!!
Thank You!
difficult episode, especially when experiencing internal conflict. Thank you John, this is absolutely magnificent.
Thanks Jesus
Life changing truly
The perfect morality standard is easily lifted with confession.
This is amazing, thank you so much!!
This is an excellent series, thank you.
Thank you.
I have been avoiding rewatching this specific video again - it kept popping up in my algo so many times that I started to become irritated with it. Eventually it stopped popping up and I didn't notice when exactly that happened but it's symbolic in a way, I may have been pushing away love or becoming a bit distant and almost cut off from it, But God started to show me something in the way that only He can do and in the way that I recognize quickly that it is none other but God talking and a few other things converged and then I had a realization at some point - which stood out to me as a question which was - Is this agape?- so I asked myself that and my intuition instantly revealed a yes in response and then I thought of where I could go to get a bit more information to refresh my mind a bit and get clarity and I knew exactly what to type into TH-cam search and it was you and this specific video of course and now I am busy receiving even more than I expected. Funny how things work. God is good. God bless you John, as always! Thank you Sir. I am so grateful for you ❤ sending love
Being in the proces of rediscovering Jezus, not as the Churches depict him though, this episode very strongly resonates with me and I am deeply grateful for this.
tbh I think the Churches are awakening themselves from their power trip, and actually rediscovering some of this through the lens of transformation psychology.
This lecture reminds me of a dream I had last night. A young child took me by the hand and told me "I can take you there." Though I can't say where "there" was I knew exactly what he meant.
We left on a train and as we approached the destination my dream became more and more vivid until the dream was indistinguishable from reality.
We arrived at a small town in the desert situated at a crossroads. There I came upon a family who had lost their daughter. Except she was alive and well. I became overwhelmed with happiness to see that the little girl had been returned to life. I wept with joy as I pushed her on a swing. It brings tears to my eyes to think about it now.
This makes me remember how for years after my travels in Greece, I called Meteora , Metanoia, so for years I described this beautiful place and what I saw and what I realized and how I felt and what I experienced there as well as spreading some of my mom's ashes there with a good friend of mine and it was during a tour with a
group of others who also experienced Meteora's beauty and also visited the monasteries together. My experience in both Delphi (I also spread some of my mom's ashes Into the site where there's the Arena and oracle) and Meteora was deeply transformative for me, I gained some type of understanding and I had a huge sense of that what is bigger than but deep and immense and heartfelt yet bursting out the seems of beauty. For years and still now, I cannot describe accurately with words or photographs but I will always have the memory and the shared experience with that friend of mine who was supportive and interested and on if not the same then similar journey unlike any other, borrowing from Jordan, the Jist, of that entire existence in that portion of our travels communicated to me in a language I cannot describe but yet it is one I can in a small way replicate to transfer the jist to others in a way that they understand, often resulting in them being so intrigued by wanting to go there to experience this. It's a tad funny how I have been encouraging people to go to Greece , emphasizing on how they won't get a full trip without going inland to Delphi and Metanoia ! Little did I know, up til last year I suppose, that I was mistakingly exchanging the word Meteora with Metanoia and I had not noticed through the years how I would interchangeably use them. It's quite incredible what simply realizing that mistake opened up, it is as if it opened up a capsule of memory stored way deeper and through practice I come closer to channeling it. A new avenue through distinction was created and that allowed what was blocked slightly by the error or oversight to become perceived and explored and relived which had and has provided me with a new insight and perspective at least, possibly even a direction for certain couped up thoughts to flow more freely and come into reason. But I am also thinking that I experienced agape, but i do not know for sure. This course is something that is helping my mind. I truly appreciate it. I wish I could show more support. I'd love to send you a copy of my book I wrote years and years ago inscribed to you , I have been inspired to decide to go for creating a second book as well. Thank you.
Old Saul of Law
New Paul of Love
Endemic in our culture: new me and old me
Participating in the Liberation of Love
Thank you John. at around 41:00 you punched my stomach so strongly that I froze
amazing I will have to listen to this talk several to even begin to understand it partially , you have answered a lot of questions for me , thank you John
John, I really appreciate the effort you put to your lectures, there are very thought provoking! Thank you very much, I can't wait until next Friday!
That’s why Jesus and Paul say “treat others as you would have them treat you,” because that commences a process of self-discovery and growing awareness of the need of transformation by the power of God’s in dwelling spirit. There is always tension between justice and mercy overarched by compassion in God’s character as God reveals to Moses in Ex 33, 34.
Agape is like the Zulu's concept of Ubuntu (people are people through people).
I haven't attended enough weddings in the last 20 years . I don't remember, in my life, anyone ever using the passages you quote from 1 Cor. for wedding inspirations. Maybe the people I know were afraid to set the bar too damn high. I didn't use it for mine, anyway. But I did use it for my mother's funeral a few years back. 1 Cor. 13 all verses. For all the pain, stupidity, etc. we as a family inflicted on ourselves we had what Paul refers to as Agape love. That must be why I am so wonderfully well - adjusted. We had Love in our home. I probably should have explained why I chose that passage for a funeral, but I didn't and now I'm glad. When people remember Mother's funeral I hope they remember that, if nothing else. All respect to everybody's pain and preference, but I think there is a lot too much talking at funerals these days.
That was a good video on "Christian self - alienation" Personally, I'm not real happy with what I'm hearing about the "good and evil" aspects of God. I'm deeply suspicious of Jung's " Answer to Job". And one of these damn days I hope to break this "code of dialectic" that Hegel crystallized so long ago. They are 2 big problems: What is the shadow that seems to demand integration? And what is this "relation to Otherness" that Hegel tried to schematize ?
You've got me screaming YES! YES!YES!
Every time John raises his voice to make an important point, it reminds me of Willy Wonka (Gene Wilder) accusing Grandpa Joe and Charlie of stealing Fizzy Lifting Drinks and kicking them out of the office without their lifetime supply of chocolate. "Good day, Sir!!" Lol
Spot on 😂 he has quite the oratory flair when his blood is up.
Hahaaa
thank you, professor. we really needed this
Reality being absurd without God seems to be one of the best arguments for there being a God. Absurdity of reality without God necessitates there being a God. God being necessary would then mean man cannot live/be without God, therefore God must be real.
Whos here after the Jordan Peterson Interview?? 🙌
Have you been watching the videos in order or did you skip to this one? I have been listening to this series of lectures in order. What a treasure trove of knowledge. I am torn between hating technology and what it has done to people and being thankful that I am able to listen and learn from great minds. I just wish more people used the technology for better purposes.
At 44:40 I would have liked an example. Thank you for this lecture!
Feels as though gold sunk through
Great video. Paul is one of the most interesting people in history.
Thanks John.
Great stuff 👍
I'm always looking for new interesting lectures on Psychology/Philosophy, please let me know if you guys have any recommendations, would be highly appreciated
Given the encounter with John, we are to change our names as well.
Love when he gets so emphatic about confusing agape with romantic love ha so cute
Ty t. B
I don’t think Christians misread this passage at weddings and that’s the only line I’ve heard in this series where I would accuse you of hubris for saying so. To be a Christian is to seek to be United with Christ totally in every relationship. Where our romantic love, is not destroyed, but is perfected into love which properly shows the divine image, agape, the love of the Lamb slain.
This is so much like a real-world uni. lecture. As of now (06.03.22) 330k people have watched the first episode, 41k have watched this, and 10k people have watched the 45th episode. As the semester progresses fewer and fewer students are attending the lectures...
53k on this episode as of 11oct22. I wonder if it’s increasing momentum. Are you using us dates? Did you mean April or June?
@@matfar100 03 = March
He's at war with Agape itself
Radical transformative experience
Participatory kind of knowing
Agape can't fail
Super saliency of candy and toys
Participatory Love
I wonder what your perspective is on the the thinkers of the Orthodox Church, Maximos the Confessor, Justin Popovich, Seraphim Rose among others?
Having listened and thoroughly enjoyed 10+ of these episodes, and greatly looking forward to listening to the rest, I noticed no mention of the. Perhaps it is because this was focused on the development of "western culture". When you mentioned the Great Schism in episode 19 and the protestant reformation later on, it made me wonder whether the meaning crisis only applied to the western world and not to the east, or at least not to the Eastern Orthodox Christians? Listening to these lectures has been so profound and helped me to understand how people like Descarte and Hobbs have left us cut off from our own experience. Having recently converted Orthodoxy Christianity, I see ways in which the Eastern Orthodox thinkers offer ways of thinking and various means of healing the fissures of mind and experience left upon us by the western thinkers.
I'm offended that this video has 40k views and not 400 million.
There were some fantastic insights here, though I have a difficult time understanding how one can give even a secular interpretation of Christianity without highlighting Christ's resurrection.
I'd just argue that he isn't trying to give a secular interpretation of christianity though. I'd say that he's building up strength and core events to get to our meaning crisis we're having today, as it seems like he's gonna argue in the future. And I think it's also important to acknowledge this as it may be "dangerous" to interpret his words into something he's actually not claiming to say.
:)
just a thought
@@huub3rr You are right sir. He's taking his listeners through a journey/process- without which most people, including many Christians, lacks the understanding of the Christian faith.
I feel the need to point out that in the King James Version of 1 Corinthians 13, instead of saying “love never fails”, it says “charity never faileth”. That whole section uses “charity” instead of love, because, as you state, agape is not the same kind of love as the other types.
Moroni 7:47 in the Book of Mormon further explains the difference. It says “But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him”.
You are correct in pointing out the use of agape, but in the Church of Jesus Christ, we use the word charity for agape. I think there’d be less confusion amongst Christians if more people understood charity that way.
Well. Here I am John. A month later. Still going strong. Dude. Dude.... duuuude.... I have no words lol
Would you agree that agape is the love that wants to help people fulfill their potential, as in Aristotle?
38:40 in tears
36:32
What does he mean by the sentence, "We will come to know as 'we are known'"? I get that agape opens reality to us, helps us see reality in a truer way, but what is this special mode of "being known" that is opened up in agapic relatedness to the world?
I would like to point out a few things:
According to Christian belief, Jesus didn't just exemplify the forgiveness though sacrifice, his sacrifice WAS God's forgiveness. It sounds like a subtle distinction, but it's the difference between Jesus being a representation of God's forgiveness, and Jesus actually being God, and enacting that forgiveness himself.
Likewise, it makes sense that early Christians were called 'Follower of The Way' because Jesus called himself 'the way, the truth and the life' so basically they are already calling themselves 'Followers of Jesus', so basically just an early version of Christian anyway. Different, yes, but very similar meaning overall.