I’d say just do what you can with your room and speaker setup. Run the auto calibration, tweak the distance, crossover, etc. Then enjoy what you have. My setup isn’t ideal in my living room and I don’t have a spare room to accommodate it. So my surrounds are slight behind me and off to the sides. They’re pretty close to your head depending where you’re sitting on the couch. My setup isn’t how I’d like it to be but it works well for what I have.
This is the best comment I've seen thus far! First off to Techo Dad, thank you for all the info in this vid. I also have 5.2.4 set up and my couch is against the wall. I do not have the space to accommodate a 7.2.4 so i calibrated my system to sound the best it can for my given space. it sounds amazing and I'm happy with it! At the end of the day YOU are the only person (and your wife) that needs to be happy with your sound.
Yes your right whatever you have to do to make it work even if you don't like the kind of speakers because in the end you might like those little things because they make it work
@@FatFolksProductions hi James, did you put 2 of the 4 ceilingspeakers right on top of your listening position? My couch is also against the wall and i am a bit struggling how to set them up in my room. I also have the denon 6700. Thanks for the help
I thought in general the receiver would re-route the sounds for the missing speakers in a traditional Dolby Digital setup. So if you have a 3.1 system (no surrounds) then the receiver will re-route the audio for the surrounds to your front left and right. At least that’s how I’ve read it in the manuals of the receivers I’ve had.
You are correct. Speaker setup systems for receivers mix that sound into the channels you do have. You aren't missing any sound, but you are not getting the discrete separation audio effect. You can switch the audio mode to 2.1 stereo, and you will still hear everything.
Be aware: if you watch the activity through f.ex. Trinnovs spatializer graphics, a lot of discs with Atmos actually have objects more or less locked to the channel locations...esp. Disney f.ex. are horrible with this. So, there is a lot of difference from the thinking that went into the Atmos spec and the end implemation of it in equipment and studio mixes. Together with some studios are also locking the mix to 7.1.4. My 2 cents: I would rather have 7.1 instead of .2 overhead whisper tracks...the amount of activity on the ceiling are very miniscule in most movies. The ones with decent Atmos usage are rare.
I agree with the 7.x over 5.x.2 and I’d rather wait to be able to make 7.x.4 possible as I’d rather full ass one thing than half ass 2 things. I want a full 360 degree immersive base layer; I want Atmos to improve on that by adding a “dome” on top of that base layer. Properly setup, a 5.x/7.x simulates a partial done of sound, Atmos/Auro heights should finish building that dome and not be the only things making that dome of sound if that makes sense.
It is a shame that there are many Atmos mixes that are like this. But I do think that we are getting more 'good' to 'excellent' Atmos mixes on a more consistent basis. At least with new releases. Now catalog titles, well there is still a long ways to go. My opinion of course.
I have a 7.2.4 system with four physical ceiling speakers (speakers are 30 degrees pre-angled and recessed into the ceiling drywall). When I set up my system a year ago I also noticed very little activity in the heights, however I've noticed recent movies making better use of heights (Dune in particular), and now even my Tidal music subscription gives me atmos mixes. Over the past couple months I have noticed that music mixes are using more height placement too. I plan to buy a 2nd set of in-wall and ceiling speakers for the family room the next time I run across an online sale. I heard that Dolby is trying hard to get Disney to stop treating atmos like a channels and actually use real objects. Some people with 9 bed channels (front wide speakers) notice movement from front to back skip front-wides because the sound was mixed as a channel instead of a moving object.
I have seen consistently poor comments and data on Disney releases. From compressed dynamic range in their sound mix, reduced overall volume as well as washed out colours on what should be an HDR presentation. I can’t remember the term but an article I read talked about some sludge filter being applied to the video because we don’t want it too colourful or something. I tried to watch black panther 4K but the sound issues were so disappointing for me I turned it off. I’d watched blade runner 2049 only a few days prior and that’s an absolute audio and visual treat on a decent system. Shame on Disney. Improve your game.
As many others have commented, 7.1 content will down mix to 5.1 with NO loss of content. This incidentally is why 5.1 surround speaker placement is about 110deg i.e roughly split the difference between sides and backs in a 7.1 setup. If you are experiencing channel loss, you perhaps have in the speaker setup of your AVR, forgotten to set ‘off’ or whatever your AVR terminology is for having no speakers in the surround back position.
This is what I thought also. No content loss . I have 7.2.4 Atmos , but many receivers are 5.2.4 , I am wondering how well they simulate the surround back channels. I will try my Yamaha RX -3070 , set it up on 5.2.4 and give it a try . I will also try a 7.2 , since Yamaha claims they can simulate height without the Atmos speakers (they call them presence speakers if are not placed in the ceiling-front height and rear height ) I am skeptical HD Audio with CINEMA DSP 3D and Virtual Presence Speaker CINEMA DSP 3D provides a wide, high and dense sound field. HD Audio format decoding lets you enjoy HD Audio sources. Virtual Presence Speaker delivers 3-dimensional sound without actual use of presence speakers.
Star Trek 'Into The Darkness' intro, is the only 4K-UHD ATMOS Disc that I use to calibrate all of the Dolby Atmos home theater systems that I install as it has the Best Mix of Treble, Surround, Height, and Bass sounds.
I've got the same room setup. Just upgraded from a 10 year old Pioneer 820k 5.1 to LX305. Also adding 2 height speakers to my ceiling (haven't done that yet, waiting for the weather to warm up before I cut a hole). So I'll be at 5.1.2. My rear speakers are bi-pole and are against the back wall as is my couch. Thanks for the video!
I have a 7.2 layout and Atmos sounded bad Till I got towers for the back speakers and svs ultra surrounds for the sides. Upgrading the surround speakers to big quality speakers helped allot. I noticed wit Atmos every speaker is as important as your fronts. Sounds amazing now!!
Yes I just discovered this scenario. I recently upgraded my fronts and moved elac bookshelves to the rear or sides. I'm running a 5.1.4 and I can't put into words what it sounds like!. I was using outdated low grade speakers. I wonder if I replace my 4 height channels if I will get this much change in quality? They are small and lightweight. Always learning!
I am always playing with the Atmos settings on my avr as my 2 height speakers are on my sidewall, about 6 feet up, and pointing down at my listening position. There are 2 settings on my avr that are close to what I have. Front height and mid height. Going by the graphics on my avr's settings, the mid height looks more like my setup. I dont really hear any difference between the 2 but I'm a knit picker and am always in the settings changing and tweaking things. I think when I upgrade to a 5.1.4 it will be easier to setup but that won't be for a while as a good 9 channel receiver is not in my price range right now. Also my avr is a 2017 model (1st gen atmos) and I believe newer avrs have more dynamic atmos. Your videos are awesome and I always learn something, looking forward to your next video
Yes! 100%! That’s what I said in my last video. The issue arises when the AVR thinks my surround speakers are behind me when they are actually in the sides.
@@TechnoDad the only solution I can think of in this space is to move the side surrounds forward some, and keep the rear surrounds in their current location. Either that or remove the surround back speakers from the equation.
@@TechnoDad but Channa, since you have no speakers behind you, where do you expect those sounds to go? If we can agree that nothing is lost in the process of converting 7 channels to 5 (which incidentally, you claim is NOT a the case in this video), rather those sounds are redirected to the most appropriate available speaker, then you have to expect “rear” sounds to come from the speakers furthest to the rear in your setup. This is why Dolby’s guidelines for 5.1 indicate placing the surrounds slightly behind the listening position, whereas their 7.1 guidelines allow for 90 degree side surrounds. The only solution I can see for this issue would be to use some sort of bi-pole/di-pole speakers that are intentionally designed to create a more diffuse, less directional sound.
@@BeefyMon Yes - you corect, the best solution for that case, to get bipole speakers, place it in between surr/back corner around a feet above your head and it’s best solution for 5.2.4
Greetings! I know this is an old video, but it just popped up in my feed. Not sure of your exact speaker placement restrictions, but would it be possible to aim those side surrounds at your back wall so the sound actually does come from behind the listening position, reflecting off the rear wall? If you have a sheetrock or smooth plaster rear wall behind the couch, reflecting sound off the rear wall should work pretty well. For pretty much all surround formats, if you have five ear level surround speakers, the surround speaker should be placed behind the listening position. If you listen to 7.1 channel native content (Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio), the rear and side surrounds are folded into the surround channels with the assumption that the speakers are behind the listening position. If you don't have a wall directly behind your couch (like if it's an open concept floor plan with another living space behind the couch), then another option might be putting the rear speakers on the ceiling on brackets (behind the couch) pointed directly at the listening position, but I don't know how comfortable you are with snaking more cables. As long as they're lower than your height channels and are pointed directly at the main listening position, this can also work pretty well. Your idea of switching from an actual immersive soundtrack to a non-immersive track like DTS HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and using Auro for upmixing might seem like a good idea. And it may actually sound fine on some content. But you won't be getting the actual sounds that have been mixed for the height channels in the height speakers in Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS:X, IMAX Enhanced or 360 Reality Audio. All of the object based surround formats (DTS:X, Dolby Atmos, 360 Reality Audio, MPEG-H, IMAX) store sounds as objects with meta data used to define the sound's 3D position and motion through space. At playback time, the receiver or processor maps these sound objects into the specific channel configuration of your speakers so it can place all of these 3D sound objects in the appropriate locations in the room. This is how a Dolby Atmos or DTS:X mix can sound pretty good in 5.1.2, while sounding even better in 7.1.4. The extra speaker channels give the receiver more placement specificity - more precision in the 3D mapping of the sounds. If you opt to use a non-immersive format like Dolby TrueHD instead, the receiver has no positioning meta data, so it has no idea that a helicopter (for example) was supposed to take off from the front, and fly overhead disappearing in the rear. Or that rain is supposed to actually fall from above the listening position. Or that the harmony/chorus vocals in Bohemian Rhapsody are supposed to come from the top right and left corners of the room. All of that height positioning information is lost. You can take that 2 dimensional non-immersive surround sound track and "upmix it" in DTS Neural:X, Dolby Surround or the Auro upmixer, in order to create sound from above, but this isn't actually restoring the height information. The processor is *guessing* which sounds should be placed into the height channels. It's a little like taking a CD, ripping it to 128K MP3, and then "restoring" it to a 44.1KHz/16 bit FLAC file. Technically, you have a 44.1K/16 bit digital file as the end product, but the information that was lost in compression is lost, and can't be recovered. When you opt to use a channel-based 2D surround sound format like Dolby TrueHD instead of a Dolby Atmos mix of the same content, you've lost the actual 3D positioning of sounds and that isn't something that can be recovered or accurately simulated. Hope this makes sense and I hope you've found a speaker configuration that works for you. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks if you like how your system sounds to you.
I have a 7.1.4 with my listening position against a wall, I just mounted the rears against the wall and the sides more centred along the side, its not ideal but I like the sound I get from the Atmos mix
I used dipole speakers positioned next to the couch firing back off the wall ’behind’ the seating position to give an approximation of rear speakers. Worked well enough tbh.
I do the same jingo. I love the SVS surrounds for this purpose. It works perfectly. My couch is against the wall with no room for rear surround backs. The SVS does a great job of separating the rear and rear backs.
Im so glad you are talking about this. I am getting confused, maybe you can help clarify. I have a 7.2.4 with a 12x25 room, my couch is against the back wall so I pulled it out a few feet to put rear surrounds behind the couch on stands so they clear the couch, then I put my side surrounds along the sides of the couch, then I mounted rear height speakers on the wall where it meets the ceiling for rear height speakers and in the front I have R625af towers with up-firing drivers in them for the front atmos speakers as I cant mount front heights right now in this room. So having the X3700h I dont have auro 3d. But I do have Neural X. If I am understanding you right, up-mixing certain content will use my speakers more appropriately than a standard mix in some cases. Where it is 5.1 mix for example on hulu live tv or other or DD+ for example, often it seems like my rear speakers aren't doing anything, my fronts, center and sides seem to do most of the work, unless I play a disc or a game that was mastered in 7.1. Do I have that right? What if anything can I do to use my rear surrounds more when watching bitstream/pcm/ 5.1 or DD+ content on live tv apps and other streaming services that offer those formats other than dts:x or Atmos so that I get audio in all my speakers? And why is it with some things I cannot access Neural x but with others I can. For example, when I use an app built into my tv WebOs, (I have the 77" CX) I do not get the option on my Denon for Neural X, but when I stream, through my xbx or firestick, I do get the option of using Neural x. Thank you for any help understanding this a little better.
Hey Channah, I'm running a 5.2.4 system as well and this is what I did for my rears and I think it's worked out very well. I use bi-pole speakers placed in the corners of the room I sit slightly ahead of them at 110 degree angle and the wash sound down the front and side walls, the sound from the rears sounds like it's coming from 4 speakers, (technically correct) but you know what I mean.
William, I am also in a 5.2.4 setup, with my surrounds at 110 degrees. The surrounds face my main listening position. What do you mean by "and the wash sound down the front and side walls, the sound from the rears sounds like it's coming from 4 speakers"? Are you saying I should point my surrounds differently?
PRO TIP: For 5.1.2 systems... ...4K-UHD discs that do not have DOLBY ATMOS/DTS:X but instead have DTS:HD:MA... ...set your AVR to DTS:Neural:X and your Height Speakers will really come to life. Just got done watching the movie the 'TENET' and was blown away!
If you have a 5.1 system and playback a 7.1 soundtrack, you do NOT lose the surround back information at least on Denon/Marantz products that I tested this on ages ago. The surround back info is placed into the surround left and right.
Also if you have a 7.1 system and playback a 5.1 soundtrack, I'm not aware of any 7.1 AVR that did not have the Dolby Pro Logic IIx upmixer which would have sound come out of the surround back speakers for 5.1 soundtracks
Hi, Just found this video. I have a 12 x 12 ft. room with a window on one side(2nd floor). I really didn't want to hear back sound from the side as well. My solution? I bot a long live edge table, moved the couch forward and put them behind. It also helps the angle for the height speakers. (SVS primes). Your video helped me decide on these. Next problem. Fitting a 100 inch screen on wall the same size wall. Need room for the height speakers on the top of the wall, towers on the side and a low bureau for the UST projector. That's for next year. Thanks for your videos, keep them coming!! Dave
Hi Chana.. I do have the same setup like you. I too feel that some sounds are not played exactly they are supposed to do.. Thanks for the video.. You are my man you got the exact video which no one is thinking about..
Love your point about being into home theaters since 1994 and having your HT in the living room. I began with my first 5.1 setup in 1997 and never stopped. HT has come long ways and it keeps getting better, more sophisticated, and also more complex. I also have mine in a family room, even though we had a large room that even our builder was asking why we don’t make a home theater there, when we custom built the house 14 years ago. I just wanted my main room for watching TV and movies to also be the HT. Over the years thereafter, I noticed so many people with nice dedicated HT rooms almost never using it and mostly watching stuff in their not so ideal family room or living room TV with no surround.
and then you've got the problem where parents get mad at their kids for ruining the good leather or whatever seating they have too. Yah, agreed. It makes sense to put it where it will be used. I'm disappointed my living room isn't optimized for surround sound, but I'm about to make it work as well as I can. That's what happens when you buy a house built in 1935.
Talking about not ideal, all of my speakers are 7 feet off the ground (except the sub). We do what we can as best as we can. I dont see the point in nit picking everyones set up or calling people out if they are just trying to enjoy entertainment. I am happy for the info you provide man.
I'm just now beginning my Atmos upgrade. I've been enjoying Dolby Digital & DTS since 2001. I'm a budget guy but have always been able to get good sound. The first thing I have noticed about the new surround sound is: I seem to enjoy the older stuff better & I don't like the up-mix. I prefer to turn on Pure Direct. It seems like we have added more speakers while, at the same time, tamped down all surround effects. I just can't seem to find great surround mixes anymore. The Flaming Lips put out 3 albums in 5.1 & Talking Heads released all 8 of their albums in 5.1 (these were all released during the gen 1). I still haven't heard anything since then that even comes close to what was achieved on these mixes. Especially The Flaming Lips albums. The worst part is, you just can't get these albums anymore. I'm lucky to own them. I think the next upgrade needs to be something in the way of programming our own surround mixes. If I could separate the tracks & place them where I want, I think I could make everything sound that good. We should just eliminate the need for surround mix engineering by creating a processor that can allow for this kind of customization. As it stands, surround sound isn't getting better, it's getting more watered down. Just like everything else.
According to your thorough explanation regarding the object based, personally, I have got the same room setup where I had to sit against the rear wall, I have got 5.1.2. setup. I remember somewhere Audioholics explained with the guy that mixed the ELP albums, CMIIW, that since the era of Front Height Channel, the object mixes would be put utilizing some coordinate between the centre and main front : then I put my height Channel at the front wall, facing to MLP, somewhere between Centre and Main Speakers, slightly above the screen. For the surround, I’d put it closer to the side walls (compared to the positions of the front mains) angled them to the centre of the room, somewhere above or below the position of the front height speakers (according how the ceiling can accommodate them), then put one or two 3D Diffuser panels at the rear, somewhere higher than the ear level and between the surround positions, plus one or two 2D Diffuser panels on each sidewalls between the main and surround channel of that sides, right after some absorption panel at the first reflecting zone of the main channel that affect the MLP on that wall. Cheers
So I just saw this video for the first time and I have to say, there is another thing that happens in channel based set ups to simulate sound from a certain space in your area, and it’s to emit a certain amount of sound out of two speakers in space to try and make it sound like it’s coming from in between them, this can happen a lot with only having 5.1 and the sounds you need from behind, I used to have only 5.1 and even with them places not behind me but beside me, the processor would use the amount of sound pumped from them at the same time to simulate sound from behind, of course it’s not AS accurate as having the surround back speakers but I have had it seem like it was behind me through that technique
Are you going to buy me a new house so I can add more speakers? Oh no you are not. Okay maybe can we just stop all the stupid comments about how I don't have a proper room set up. Oh yeah don't forget to subscribe. 😅🤣😭. Love you Channa. Even more after this video.
Coming from someone who is just looking to buy something to get me started, can I say this is one of the most easiest videos I've seen in about 6 months of looking on TH-cam. I'M exactly in the same position as you. I can't put anything behind me. Our seating is right up against the wall. You need to make more videos on this very topic and advising what works best. Let's be honest here not many people have the ideal situation as a cinema layout. We have to compromise that is why in 6 months of watching so many different reviews opinions ect I still haven't bought a Dolby Atmos system. My budget is not very large maybe €1.500 and the Euro is about the same as the USD so I'm going to buy something that's value for money. I bet 95 percent if not 99 percent of people who are installing home sound systems are making very big mistakes. It's not until you listen to a friend's system you then realize man I'd love something like his are hers. Great information thank you man
When I get space and money for a home theatre setup, I have a multi-phase plan to start with a 2.2 setup and gradually build up to a 17.4 setup: - Phase One: LG 77” OLED TV, Marantz AV 10/AMP 10, two Polk Legend L800 fronts and two Bowers & Wilkins DB1D subwoofers - Phase Two: Polk Legend L400 centre, two Polk Legend L200 surrounds, and two more Bowers & Wilkins DB1D subwoofers - Phase Three: two Polk Legend L200 surround rears and two Polk Reserve R900 front heights - Phase Four: two Polk Legend L200 front wides, and two Polk Reserve R900 rear heights - Phase Five: one Polk Reserve R900 centre height and three Polk 900-LS top middles/top surround In between them, I would also collect the various playback devices and media I want, both modern and vintage.
Hi MASTER : Thanks for all you video , I have Denon AVR -X 2400 I am very happy when this receiver . This is my question ….. tho receiver work w/ 8 K tv? Thanks
I bought two speakers of brand DynaVoice, the Magic FX4,:to extend my system to a 7.1 system, even when I have a wall behind my sofa. Those speakers are angled. So what I did is put a shelve of 20cm wide behind the sofa and put the speakers on that firing towards THE WALL. Yes, I use the wall the add dispersion to that sound so you can locate them less. The trick is to choose the right height of the shelve (basic geometry) and voila, you have a 7.1 system. Now, a tricky part is the DSP of your avr. Old DSPs are slow, so they can't handle well speakers with a very short distance (remember distance is just a relative delay between the speakers). More modern avrs can handle 30cm or more, but old avr may have a minimum distance of 100cm. In the later case you need to add manually a delay to each speaker (a delta) to again a correct relative distance. Just be careful with subs if they are directly connected to your front speakers (not via sub out) than this doesn't work. Via sub out it is no problem.
I smell what you’re cooking Channa… I have learned so much from watching the past two videos that you did on this subject and reading these comment sections. This is awesome, LOVE your work my friend… BOOM!!
I have a system 5.1.2 atmos and I have hooked up my rear speakers to the terminals labeled on avr "Surround" L and R on the back of it . and tow speaker on high roof for atmos , 2 speaker front 1 center 2 speaker surround rear my seat 2 speaker top middle high My question is that there are also terminals on avr for a "Surround Back" L and R as well. Do I have my speakers hooked up to the right terminals (or should I hook them up to the "Surround Back" terminals)? Which is better to deliver on the receiver surround or surround back / if you have tow speaker only for surrounded
You are off again, our AVR's when running setup, actually asks and shows you where your speakers are placed and recommended. I actually agree with your previous hypo, ATMOS tries to send sounds out to a locale or space, contingent on what speakers you have. So this is some folding in present speakers. Those test tones are made for people who actually have that setup, if your setup doesn't match, it will fold to whats available .
Yes, the AVR knows I don’t have surround back, but it still thinks my surround speakers are behind my MLP. There’s no way to tell the AVR that the surrounds are flanking my MLP when in a 5.1.x setup.
@@TechnoDad actually they do, you forget, you placed a MIC at your MLP, and its using tones for distance away from you. For all we know, the way the sound is picked up and translated. That last part was speculation, but they at least know distance. And the decoding is sent to the locale where a surround would be but you didn't place it accordingly.
@@HomeTheaterCommish Distance, yes, but direction, no. Since almost all mics for room correction are mono, there's no way to tell *where* in a 3d space the sound came from, just how long it took to get there, and those that *do* have stereo mics don't use that information meaningfully for anything other than the room correction itself. As far as the receiver is concerned, for 5.1 and 7.1.2+, your speakers are at 90degrees from you, and for 5.1.2 the side surrounds are at 110degrees. Unless you have a receiver with a specific setting to input the exact degrees each speaker is placed at(which doesn't exist afaik), it's all treated as if they're in the exact same spot the reference is for a given surround codec.
@@donm9090 I agree Don, but good AVRS run thru a setup that ask you if you have a specific speaker and since its coded to how Dolby& DTS want their speakers placed, then its in a GEO location for a GEO coded sound . Forgive the GEO, just for the example.I have WIDES in my system. I watched a movie with a crawling creature and the sound came clearly from that LOCALE, I changed the setup and the sound emanated from the fronts but that as PROMINENT. So perhaps a mixing engineer has a TEMPLATE from DOLBY/DTS and the engineer sets up the sound for locales where speakers might be if a SPEAKER rich environment and then the AVR decoder decodes to the amount that is setup in its system. I blow friends away with my 9.2.4 setup (in a regular 18x14 room) and I tried t place the speakers as close to DOLBY reference as possible. But at times I have changed the configuration just to see how it sounds. Some sounds are still in the basic area just matrixed from different speakers. BTW I love the dialogue from the enthusiasts on this subject.
@@HomeTheaterCommish I feel like you might be confusing the up/down mixing process with where the speakers are physically placed in space. Atmos/DTS:X *do not* care where they are, because as far as they are concerned there's only 1 place those speakers *should* be, and that's how it treats them, regardless of how many speakers you have in total and what the setup is. Outside of standard 7.1, the rest is entirely upmixing on the vast majority of movies, because almost none have dedicated channels past 7, and *all* height speakers for Atmos and DTS:X are "upmix" based on your specific speaker layout and the sound's 3d xyz metadata. For what it's worth, consider speaker distances as nothing more than time alignment, because that's all the receiver actually does with that information, add delays to the sound coming from the nearest channels until all sounds from every channel reach you at the same time, but what that cannot make up for is a speaker placed out of alignment. It can only fix speakers being different distances from you. That's how Atmos and DTS:X are designed, for data efficiency's sake. It'd take up too much space to have 13 or even more discreet channels of uncompressed audio data on the disc and further, trying to stream that data through an already struggling cable like HDMI with the assumption video must also go through that cable, 7.1+ the metadata is enough with the original audio source to know *exactly* where each sound needs to be placed, and the upmixer can compare that against what extra speakers you have in your system to add that data in for finer placement control.
I also had this problem with my surround rear speakers at my old home where the rear speakers had to be placed on each side of the couch for my wife would not allow me to hang them on the wall so what I did was face each speaker towards the wall so that the audio would bounce of the wall and adjusted the surround settings until it sound good enough. It wasn't perfect but it did work better than hearing the rears on the side of your ear.
I have the 7.2.2 setup and yes my surrounds are on the sides but I put my chair about a foot from the back wall. Cant put a speaker back there but it makes back surrounds a little more recessed. Im running a yamaha 2080 and when I run the test tones it puts the sound in speakers with no surround and back surround blend.Content sounds great.
I am in the same boat, I have a small space, couch against a wall, and no other option for a different arrangement. I have an old 90s Dolby ProLogic2 reciever that is on its way out, and a 5.1 Bose speaker setup... It has been OK for movies, but definitely could be better, and it sounds pretty rubbish for music. I've been looking to get a new AVR and then some different speakers for over a year now, amd am trying to decide if I should even try for 7.x.x , or 5.x.x, or just go with a better 5.1 setup. I may start with just 5.1, with a modern AVR, and then test out some rear height speakers, or armor speakers on the ceiling , and see if it is worth the upgrade to 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 ... I might buy a 9 or 11 channel unit ,for other features, as I want a zone 2 for outdoor speakers, a second HDMI out for a second screen for times like when we have people over for football or other such occasions... I wish there was an easier way to figure out what is best in my space before just buying things...anything modern will be an upgrade though. Thanks for what u do trying to help us all learn and make good purchases. Cheers.
Whenever I want to hear sound coming from all speakers. My current set up is 7.2.4n I just set my X4700h to multi channel stereo lol. When my Apple tv4k movies come in Atmos my Denon switches. Sometimes I chose Multichannel Stereo over Dolby.
Well I'm using the Sony str dn 1080 with my rear speakers to the sides but I'm also using the phantom back channels and it works a treat. It is set up in a 7.1.2 config and you really can hear things directly behind you. I tried it with startrek into darkness when the enterprise comes out of the water it sounds like it's right behind you then lifts out and flies up into the height channels then the front. Great processing from the amp
The Star Trek 'Into The Darkness' 4K-UHD intro, is the only ATMOS Disc that I use to calibrate all of the home theater systems that I install as it has the Best Mix of Treble, Surround, Height, and Bass sounds.
Awesome videos! I was always under the impression that if you don't have enough speakers on what the channel-based mix entails, then the AVR or processor would just downmix to your current speaker configuration. For example, if I'm watching a 7.1 True-HD Mix, and I only have a 3.1 system, then I was under the assumption that the Denon/Marantz AVR would just take the surround and back channel information and downmix them it to the 3.1 system. Therefore, I wouldn't be losing any audio information, I just wouldn't be hearing it from the correct locations they were intended to be heard from. Am I correct here or do I actually lose the sound information completely?
I think you are correct about your AVR downmixing. Maybe cheaper units don't downmix so they just omit the channels you don't have? In my case, part of the speaker calibration setup is to tell the unit which speakers I have. If I tell it I don't have a center speaker, it does NOT just delete that channel and you don't hear it; it mixes that audio into the other channels.
You are correct, Juan, you will not lose any of the sound information at all. Your AVR will downmix the sound to whatever you have. Naturally, if you don't have rear surrounds you will not hear sounds coming from behind you as convincingly as if you did have rear surrounds, but you will be able to hear those sounds from your side surrounds, and your side surrounds will image the rear sounds the best they can to give you the impression the sound is coming from behind you.
So i do have a 5.1.2 setup. I don’t have the best room for this, i live in a single wide trailer so my living room shares with my kitchen, but i have my atmos speakers above my tv fireing out like the wall of sound and i like it alot like that and my rear surround are put up on the wall at 7feet in the air i have 8 foot ceilings and there put as if they were flanking my left and right, and i use the klipsch 500sa and from how i can hear it. Thos do a pretty good placement wise that i feel like i would hear objects coming from behind me to the front. I don’t want them too far back because then it would be fireing on the kitchen and I don’t need that. But it’s the best placement i have to get the best surround sound experience at home. Just my thoughts and experience on this and I’m hoping i can get a bigger place soon to correct this and add further channels to the setup.
Hi Channa I have been having that same issue with my Surround back speaker where they don't want to play any sound. I even have them hooked on there own Emotivia Amplifier
What if you’re running a 5.1.4 setup with front and rear heights? Surrounds are on the sides of the main listening area. Both front and rear heights are angled towards the main listening area.
My room is: 5.7m long (Sitting at 4.7m from the front) 3.72m wide (Speakers 3.3m L to R a bit back) 2.7m high Sealing Wanne go 5.1.4 *1m back / 1.65m to each side / at 2.45m (on the backwall above a window aiming at me) =>H2-L & R [Back height speakers] * 1.7m or 1.6m Front / 1.65m to each side / at 2.6m (10cm of the sealing aiming at me) => H1-L & R * Rest 1.2m high at 5.1 setup (What i use now) Would this be ok? Would be using a DENON AVR-X3800H
Adhd.. i get lost in these videos, but if i play a video game. My 5.1 create a phantom rear so i hear accuratly things behind me. Even tho i dont have speakers there. Are you saying atmos content do not do this? And that we need rear surrounds, not just side surrounds like i n a back almost against the wall 5.1 setup? I am looking to get height speakers but lost as to how to mount, what speaker to use, and also where to mount.. too much conflicting info online.
I also have my 5.1.4 setup in living room without the sofa against the walls. My living room is not a single room so it branches out to the dinning room, kitchen and living entry room. My side surrounds are behind my sofa angled at me in center. The sound setup seems to be correct hopefully. I don't think we all need to take speaker setups seriously because sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to make it work in limited room in homes. Most average joes will not spend more than 5k-10k on home theater setup in their living room. I think you already have a great setup and thanks for letting us know how to make it sound better. For 7.1.4 setup I do want rear surrounds but that is 2ft behind my head so is that bad?
So, interesting Video and wanted to chip in as well. I've not been into home theater since '94, but have been in it since 98'. So started with Dolby pro logic ( VHS tapes) then we got DD 5.1 which was discreet channel based 5.1, so whether you had your rears to the back or to the sides ( I had them to the sides then as I had no space behind me; it was a bedroom) sound would play through them obviously regardless of placement of the surrounds. Then we got DD EX & DTS ES. those formats introduced 6.1 however the signal for the sixth speaker ( which was supposed to be a rear center speaker so placed dead center behind you ) was matrixed into the 5.1 mix, so a capable EX/ES decoder would send the matrixed information to that sixth speaker where applicable. Then the 7.1 Receivers became a thing, but they were still decoding 5.1 with or without matrix for the sixth channel, however like with Dolby Pro logic, the 2 back rears would be mono, not stereo. Since it is harder to hear sounds straight behind you but easier if they are a bit to the sides behind you, this was considered to be an upgrade. I had one of those 7.1 SR9600 Marantz receivers which was a monster in its heydays. The 2 Monaural channels behind you would not be used if there was no info matrixed in for Dolby Digital EX. However for DTS you had DTS ES Matrix but also DTS ES Discrete !. So DTS ES discrete 6.1 was by far the best sounding format due to the highest bit rate. Enter Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master audio, now most AV receivers had still 7.1 and now we also had 7.1 discrete channels for both Dolby & DTS if you had an AVR that could decode both formats. Now with Atmos and DTS-X you have more channels than people can decode at home and they are object based. so if a specific sound is supposed to be heard in a specific spot your Atmos/DTS-X avr should be using all the available speakers to help place that sound in that Spot, while trying to keep things natural, so no rear sounds blasting from your fronts. Obviously having speakers set up in the ideal pattern will make it easier for your AVR to put those sounds in that spot, but if you've used some room correction system to calibrate your room, your "rears" should be working in whichever way they can to place those sounds in your room. So if you have them more to the side you will obviously hear sounds coming more from the side, but I do not think information meant for your rears will be lost just because you are running 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 and have your rears to the sides. There are still 5.1 systems sold which use Di- or Bi-pole solutions and those are actually meant to be placed to your sides, using room reflection to create a more spacious experience, however they would be far less suited for discrete channels/Object based formats. In closing, I see no reason why you would need to use an Auro3d upmixer to get sounds meant for your rears ( not back rears) to play to your rears if they are on your side. Sounds should be coming from your side placed rears regardless. As Atmos & DTS X scale to accommodate your speaker layout by default. Now if that sounds natural to you or if it is in fashion with the artistic intent is another thing altogether. But the way it was explained in the video made it seem that if you have your rears to your sides, you would lose info meant for your rears and they would not play at all.
I have 6.2.2, sofa on back wall, and single rear speakr in bay window area. It sounds like it should with surrounds at 6ft. I often think about having side surround speakers at ear level, and side height speakers, but it's hard to justify. Dispite what I have heard about a single rear speaker, I think it works well if it's your only rear channel option. If I didn't have the bay window, I wouldn't hesitate to install an in-wall speaker in that location. It's rare in movies to have much sound coming from behind, but there is an abience that helps create a more 3D immage within the surround, and real field. Things like cars passing, and bullets wizzing by have a more realistic spacial since.
Thanks to buying a new house i have had my 5.1.2 surrounds both ways and i gotta say haveing them to the side sounds much more immersive seeing as how we dont hear sounds that well behind us i was missing out on all the subtle sounds. So im happier with them on the sides.
This was helpful for drawing attention to problem I have with back against wall, but was hopeful for simpler solution for us on a budget without pricey AVR and 5 ceiling speakers.
I am adding two in ceiling speakers soon along with an Anthem AVR. In my current 5.1 I do not really feel I am missing anything, other than sound from the ceiling. I am ok with a 5.1.2 set up. The room is just too small otherwise.
I have a really similar set up to you, currently 5.1 but I’m going to add two higher Channels when I can. My opinion is my set up sounds AMAZING I’m sure others sound better than mine but when I sit down and watch a movie I just enjoy it! As for sounds coming from “the wrong place” I’d far rather hear those sound effects in the wrong place than not hear them at all
I just purchased a Denon x4800h and looking at ditching my 7.1 setup because really the room layout for it is horrible. Would a 5.1.4 better solution with Auro 3D? Proper rear speakers is a no go and would have a better layout with them to the sides. I have 20' ceilings and would put the height channels towards the top of the wall.
Does the distance between the Atmos overhead speakers can be 4.5ft or needs to be more? I really don't have too much space if I follow this recomendations. Please let me know. Thanks.
Would you cover using headphones for Dolby Atmos? I find many for gaming but little mention of the best headphones for listening to movies and music. I have tried high-end Bose and Sony and hear the Atmos effect but wondering if I am missing the best true atmos effect.
Have you tried putting your surrounds behind your couch? I think I might try that, because I'm kinda all in on this Atmos. I have a ceiling fan, so Auro ain't happening anyhow.
We all have to make some sacrifices on our systems. Don't discount how the room correction software on modern receivers can compensate for speaker location and provide a great virtualisation of accurate sound location and placement. I know my Yamaha A4A does angle measurements for the speakers along with distance and I can only assume they use all this info to place the sounds as best they can in the 'correct' locations.
I have a Denon 4800h with a 5.2.4 setup and my first 5 are standard and 4 overhead but I've been curious if my rear heights would be better as back surround , dolby sp ,or keep it as I have it setup as rear heights? Keep in Mind my seating position is against the wall like yours. Let me know what you think. Mind my new denon 4800h can do auro 3d , auro 2d ..etc . I do like how my Neural X sound , I think it sounds better than Atmos . I'm open for thoughts and opinion Techno Dad.
Another very good video. Thanks. Question: Where/How can I obtain settings that are needed to get the tactile "bass" for my family room 5.1 (2 independent subs)"home theater"? Before BB's Geeks came to calibrate the speakers, we were able to feel the waves and wind on the front of our legs/chins plus thumps in our chest while watching a movie. Now we don't get that feeling at all. (LG OLED 77CX, Denon AVR 4700h, UB820 BlueRay. We are using eARC. Older Polk Tower speakers and Center + 2-REL T/9Xs)
@@LeeG260 I know that Audyssey really makes bass anemic. I would suggest getting a custom calibration from Joe N Tell, but it's not cheap and you will need to know how to measure speakers and what not. His calibration will make your system sing and your bass slam! Contanct him for a consultation - bit.ly/JNTBook
i have the denon x4400h and i have it setup 5.1.2 and using the dolby test files when the sound plays the side surround the denon plays the front and surround and when it plays the surround back it plays my surround.
Where did you get "the dude" wall art? I've been searching and searching but I cannot find that print. Keep up the great work/videos, I've learned a great deal about Dolby Atmos from you!
I'm confused...but aren't you now going have the behind sounds now coming from above at ceiling level? Or because it's speaker based that doesn't happen. I don't have this problem but would like to understand to help others that might. What setting are you changing on the AVR?
Not a whole lot. Feature wise they are pretty much the same thing. The X line is the more advanced, but it's really hard to tell a difference between those two models.
I am sitting against the wall. I would like to upgrade my 5.1 system to atmos. Should I get 5.1.4 or just 5.1.2 because rear hight speakers won’t be rear, but above me. Will this make movies better or even worse because of wrong location of the sound.
for me useing two stereo speakers with voicemeeter as a 5.1 i have the same issue i have one speaker in front of me one behind me (not to the side of me fully behind my head) windows sees my rear channles as side channles so any audio that comes from my rear channles is then mixed to my sides for movies and tv but in games i tested and sounds comeing from behind me i still hear behind me sounds comeing from my surround left and right comes from the speaker in front of me or uses both the front left and surround left together to create the effect of a surround i found this only in garrys mod for the most part and games that support 5.1 work normally any game with atmos is mixed to 5.1 thru atmos but i dont have atmos home theatre setup i assume thats just the decoder used for atmos games in general despite configureation i am thinking about makeing windows think its a 7.1 system and just not have side channles tho
Channa, did you not use something like Audyssey when setting up your upstairs home theater? If so, surely that should have detected that you have no back surround speakers but only side rear surround speakers and therefore know which parts of the 5.1 and 7.1 audio tracks to feed those speakers so everything sounds as it should?
First off I love the content, always have. I'm literally in the exact same conflict right now. My couch is against the wall and I have a 5.2.2 system. My Atmos are in ceiling and I was wondering if I should put two more Atmos on the back wall pointing down kind of similar to yours. Did that make a difference?
Getting your couch off the back wall would be more beneficial for your listening then getting the extra height channels! Knowing I've got an audiophile grade atmos set up, I had to spend nearly £2,000 to get my rear Heights but it was only when I moved the couch an extra foot (2 ft total) from the back wall, was when I really experienced the best audio. Here's a short 3-minute video of my small room setup... th-cam.com/video/O_fp8aZiiSM/w-d-xo.html
@@Totalplonker very nice I like your setup. Yeah that's pretty much about the space that I have but I do see that you have back Atmos speakers as well. I'll post a video on my TH-cam page when I get time and I'll let you know so you can see what I'm working with.
@@darkashkev5461 Now that is what you call a home theatre screen 👍 first of all, are you able to place the centre channel on the top rack of the av stand without visual obstruction, if not at least get a wedge underneath the centre channel speaker (with blu-tack) so its pointing in the direction of your ears! As far as your rear Heights are concerned.. if you've already got a 9 Channel receiver, then I would utilise its fullest potential but just be aware if you do install rear Heights you're going to have to lower the surrounds to ear level, I had the same problem, here's another 3 minutes short video... th-cam.com/video/xvdqI5qZa6g/w-d-xo.html Thanks for posting the video! Wouldn't it be great if anyone posted their setups 😁
@@Totalplonker yeah that Center channel is too big to set on the top I'm looking at a different stand for that. You probably can't see it in the video but it is actually pointed up at my listening position. If I went ahead and move it to my chair out about a foot. Then moved the surround sound speakers on stands could I do in walls as my back Channel and then put ceiling speakers on the back as well. I do have a Denon 4700h so I have the capabilities of adding two more sets of speakers. Let me know your thoughts
I’ve got a Marantz receiver in an L shaped room open to the dining room. The system allows for 7.2.2 Dolby Atmos, but I can’t put speakers in the ceiling. The sitting area is approximately in the room center. In the rear of the room the speakers all up high above cabinets. 2 subs left and right on the floor. The others at head height. Should I be moving or replacing speakers? Changing the sound settings?
Am I really missing out not having atmos in my 7.1 system. Do the over head channels really make a big difference. Cost wise. Thx for your informative videos.
I used to test my system using games like Skyrim and I would move my character around to see how the sound was playing - may not be consistent for all input sources but it helped me see how things sound behind me with a 5.2.4 setup
I didn’t consider this. Since I don’t have height speakers, assumed Dolby Atmos tracks were playing as Dolby True HD. I have my dipoles to my immediate sides, but do have them ever so slightly behind my viewing position, as my futon is slanted and puts me about a foot from my back wall.
Cool stuff, definitely learned a lot. I’m on the Atmos 5.1.2 and recognize the issue with my couch against the wall… only comments I get: to bad, maybe you should change your livingroom… So now I will ivestigate the Auro 3D upmixing route… starts with a receiver like a X4700 and extra heightspeakers?
So my sound is doom, because i have the same set up and also i can't put ceilling speakers. So my setting is a 5.1.2 and i won't ear specials surronding sounds or any real Atmos. Thanks for the infos.
Thank you for this video. I appreciate the content. I have a newly setup media area. Though my sitting space isn't flush against the back wall, I face a similar limitation because I have no full rear wall to place 'back surrounds" (7.1.4). With that being said I am running a 5.1.4. My concern is should I be rethinking using object based sound and maybe switch to channel based sound as you said. I wonder if I could use my rear heights as rear surrounds instead, would my ear level soundstage be fuller? When listening to most atmos mixes, like the bird flapping winged demo, the transition from left, to behind, to right sounds decent. But I'm interested in feedback to know if I can improve it.
I am in that situation because is the bedroom but I got the bed a foot out and got the smallest speakers I could find which I hate such speakers but with those little M1s now they about 4 inches behind me I known it's not the best but at least are behind me now and I can continue with the 7.2.4 I'm doing a compromise I wish I could put towers speakers everywhere but I can't for the back surround,now for all highest speakers what is large speakers I always wondered about this?
Which of these multi channel technologies do the best job with music? If you can answer, could you include Yamaha Presence as a comparison. I would love a video on this topic if possible. Last time I invested in surround was a couple years ago, and for t=me the sweet spot was DSX Wide. I went with an Onkyp 3007 and 9.2, I'm still pretty happy with it, but I'm not sure how much life the Onkyo has left in it. I think High end Denon is the spiritual successor here, but I'm willing to experiment elsewhere. New Sony, Yamaha etc.
Hi, thanks for the video. I need some help. I also have a 5.1.4 speakerset ( with the 4 ceilingspeakers) and my couch is also against the wall. Could you show me how did you set up ( small drawing) your room with the positioning of the speakers. I have the same problem with my surroundspeakers standing next to the couch on earhights. Problem is my positioning of the 4 heightspeakers. Thanks
@technodad!! Can you run a set of smaller in or on-wall speakers directly behind the couch? That is honestly the best way to get those “point sources“ of sound back into your room. Since it’s so close to your listening position, you also don’t need the typical huge diameter drivers (just set a crossover to 150 Hz or so for those rear channels). Also in a pinch, if there is a triangle of space behind your couch, or you have the ability to move your couch six or so inches off of the wall, you can either put the speakers built into a small “console“ table top right behind the couch, or just lay them on the floor (it sounds like a terrible idea, but in reality, when only let’s say 1 to 5% of the movies sounds are coming from those surround back speakers, there’s more value in getting the sound “out“ of the system compared to it being perfectly at ear level and/or direct line of sight to your ears. Try these last two ideas with a cheap set of throwaway speakers you may have around the house and see how you like it!! (You can use anything like and old set of Bose cube speakers, gallo acoustics micro, or elipson 4” models) Very interested to hear how this works out if you try it!! Cheers -J
I also don't have an ideal HT room, the back of my seating position is open to the Kitchen with no wall there. I still get great sound with my 7.1.2 setup despite this. My dilemma is should I be using my furthest back speakers as rear height or do I use the two speakers for surround back. I'm running an Onkyo Tx-RZ820 AVR with an OSD 5 channel ext. amp. I noticed how I have them wired now, it doesn't show all my speakers on the AVR front panel when in Atmos however, they are on.
I want to upgrade my home theater setup. Right now I have an old Yamaha receiver with 7.1. I want to upgrade to 7.1.4 or 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 5.1.2 ? ….Which do you think is best ? ….the recover I want to use is the Denon x1700 or Denon s760 from Costco. Or other receiver . Which setup is best ?…..
Hi! If you are going with either of those AVRs, you will only have 7 channels, so either 7.1 or 5.1.2. If you want Atmos, then you'll need to go 5.1.2.
Many thanks for this video, it's completely changed my thought process in regards to my room setup. I've been going back and forth between the Sony HT-A9 for simplicity or proper discreet setup using an entry level kit like the Klipsch 5.1.4 kit with an AVR, but i'm in the same situation where my sofa is up against the wall, so i'm not really going to get the benefit of either system and might as well just get a soundbar to improve the general tv audio quality
Well...it is a bit of a strange situation. I don't think it will be bad per se, it's just not going to be optimal with the couch up against the wall. The AVR/Speakers route will sound the best, but if you don't want to bother, then the Sony HT-A9 will provide a good overall experience, but you will need the subwoofer, which then brings you into the AVR/Speakers setup.
Wanted to get to you before you make the Pioneer video. Seems like an obvious direct competitor for the Onkyo RZ50. However, I’ve read in few places that the Pioneer only allows one crossover setting for all speakers, not independent settings. Can you please confirm or deny that in your review, as I feel it would be a deal breaker for a lot of people.
I have 5. 1. 4 mine are limited as well, as my Lounge is up against the wall and I have my Atmos speakers mounted high on the wall pointing down at rear and front tilted down , using A laser pointer to aim the speakers, but I never Hear from the Atmos front speakers even turned up all the way or even with Auro 3-d
Thanks Channa for the videos. I have a very close set up to yours running a 5.2.4 set up and running my surround speakers on each side of my listening position. Previously had a 7.2.2 set up which now I’m regretting that I changed the configuration. What do you think of using the Dolby Surround or Neural X since you mentioned using Auro 3D ? I am debating going back to a 7.2.2 set up and converting the rear height speakers back to surround back.
@@TechnoDad I have tried both and I find pro’s and con’s about using the upmixer or staying with the format on the source. Being a purist….my mind always says I should be sticking to the original source coding.
Hi guys..I have a 5.2.2 with my height speakers right behind my coach pointing down obviously. I have my little satellites speakers turned sideways. Horizontal. I tried them both ways.(many times). And in my opinion they sound better that way. Plus I turned the height ones up a db or two and it makes a big difference to me. Just something to throw around s. Peace!
I'm setting up a new HT setup and I'm deciding between aura 3D and Dolby Atmos setup. Which would you recommend and why? And is today's AVR upmixing to Aura 3D convincing? Thanks
I’d say just do what you can with your room and speaker setup. Run the auto calibration, tweak the distance, crossover, etc. Then enjoy what you have. My setup isn’t ideal in my living room and I don’t have a spare room to accommodate it. So my surrounds are slight behind me and off to the sides. They’re pretty close to your head depending where you’re sitting on the couch. My setup isn’t how I’d like it to be but it works well for what I have.
Agreed!! Do what you can with what you’ve got. There’s too many Home Theater snobs that just started with an Atmos system. It’s just funny to me…
Rock...you have the most sensible comment here. Basically... "just use whatever you have to work with, the best you can. And...ENJOY IT!!!"
This is the best comment I've seen thus far! First off to Techo Dad, thank you for all the info in this vid. I also have 5.2.4 set up and my couch is against the wall. I do not have the space to accommodate a 7.2.4 so i calibrated my system to sound the best it can for my given space. it sounds amazing and I'm happy with it! At the end of the day YOU are the only person (and your wife) that needs to be happy with your sound.
Yes your right whatever you have to do to make it work even if you don't like the kind of speakers because in the end you might like those little things because they make it work
@@FatFolksProductions hi James, did you put 2 of the 4 ceilingspeakers right on top of your listening position? My couch is also against the wall and i am a bit struggling how to set them up in my room. I also have the denon 6700. Thanks for the help
I thought in general the receiver would re-route the sounds for the missing speakers in a traditional Dolby Digital setup. So if you have a 3.1 system (no surrounds) then the receiver will re-route the audio for the surrounds to your front left and right. At least that’s how I’ve read it in the manuals of the receivers I’ve had.
You are correct. Speaker setup systems for receivers mix that sound into the channels you do have. You aren't missing any sound, but you are not getting the discrete separation audio effect. You can switch the audio mode to 2.1 stereo, and you will still hear everything.
Be aware: if you watch the activity through f.ex. Trinnovs spatializer graphics, a lot of discs with Atmos actually have objects more or less locked to the channel locations...esp. Disney f.ex. are horrible with this. So, there is a lot of difference from the thinking that went into the Atmos spec and the end implemation of it in equipment and studio mixes. Together with some studios are also locking the mix to 7.1.4. My 2 cents: I would rather have 7.1 instead of .2 overhead whisper tracks...the amount of activity on the ceiling are very miniscule in most movies. The ones with decent Atmos usage are rare.
I agree with the 7.x over 5.x.2 and I’d rather wait to be able to make 7.x.4 possible as I’d rather full ass one thing than half ass 2 things. I want a full 360 degree immersive base layer; I want Atmos to improve on that by adding a “dome” on top of that base layer.
Properly setup, a 5.x/7.x simulates a partial done of sound, Atmos/Auro heights should finish building that dome and not be the only things making that dome of sound if that makes sense.
You should try recalibrating your system, I don't have that problem
It is a shame that there are many Atmos mixes that are like this. But I do think that we are getting more 'good' to 'excellent' Atmos mixes on a more consistent basis. At least with new releases. Now catalog titles, well there is still a long ways to go. My opinion of course.
I have a 7.2.4 system with four physical ceiling speakers (speakers are 30 degrees pre-angled and recessed into the ceiling drywall). When I set up my system a year ago I also noticed very little activity in the heights, however I've noticed recent movies making better use of heights (Dune in particular), and now even my Tidal music subscription gives me atmos mixes. Over the past couple months I have noticed that music mixes are using more height placement too. I plan to buy a 2nd set of in-wall and ceiling speakers for the family room the next time I run across an online sale. I heard that Dolby is trying hard to get Disney to stop treating atmos like a channels and actually use real objects. Some people with 9 bed channels (front wide speakers) notice movement from front to back skip front-wides because the sound was mixed as a channel instead of a moving object.
I have seen consistently poor comments and data on Disney releases. From compressed dynamic range in their sound mix, reduced overall volume as well as washed out colours on what should be an HDR presentation. I can’t remember the term but an article I read talked about some sludge filter being applied to the video because we don’t want it too colourful or something. I tried to watch black panther 4K but the sound issues were so disappointing for me I turned it off. I’d watched blade runner 2049 only a few days prior and that’s an absolute audio and visual treat on a decent system.
Shame on Disney. Improve your game.
As many others have commented, 7.1 content will down mix to 5.1 with NO loss of content.
This incidentally is why 5.1 surround speaker placement is about 110deg i.e roughly split the difference between sides and backs in a 7.1 setup. If you are experiencing channel loss, you perhaps have in the speaker setup of your AVR, forgotten to set ‘off’ or whatever your AVR terminology is for having no speakers in the surround back position.
This is what I thought also. No content loss . I have 7.2.4 Atmos , but many receivers are 5.2.4 , I am wondering how well they simulate the surround back channels. I will try my Yamaha RX -3070 , set it up on 5.2.4 and give it a try . I will also try a 7.2 , since Yamaha claims they can simulate height without the Atmos speakers (they call them presence speakers if are not placed in the ceiling-front height and rear height ) I am skeptical
HD Audio with CINEMA DSP 3D and Virtual Presence Speaker
CINEMA DSP 3D provides a wide, high and dense sound field. HD Audio format decoding lets you enjoy HD Audio sources. Virtual Presence Speaker delivers 3-dimensional sound without actual use of presence speakers.
Star Trek 'Into The Darkness' intro,
is the only 4K-UHD ATMOS Disc that I use to calibrate all of the Dolby Atmos home theater systems that I install as it has the Best Mix of Treble, Surround, Height, and Bass sounds.
I've got the same room setup. Just upgraded from a 10 year old Pioneer 820k 5.1 to LX305. Also adding 2 height speakers to my ceiling (haven't done that yet, waiting for the weather to warm up before I cut a hole). So I'll be at 5.1.2. My rear speakers are bi-pole and are against the back wall as is my couch. Thanks for the video!
I have a 7.2 layout and Atmos sounded bad Till I got towers for the back speakers and svs ultra surrounds for the sides. Upgrading the surround speakers to big quality speakers helped allot. I noticed wit Atmos every speaker is as important as your fronts. Sounds amazing now!!
Yes I just discovered this scenario. I recently upgraded my fronts and moved elac bookshelves to the rear or sides. I'm running a 5.1.4 and I can't put into words what it sounds like!. I was using outdated low grade speakers. I wonder if I replace my 4 height channels if I will get this much change in quality? They are small and lightweight. Always learning!
What exact did you have prior to changing your speakers to your new towers? How long ago was this
I am always playing with the Atmos settings on my avr as my 2 height speakers are on my sidewall, about 6 feet up, and pointing down at my listening position.
There are 2 settings on my avr that are close to what I have. Front height and mid height.
Going by the graphics on my avr's settings, the mid height looks more like my setup.
I dont really hear any difference between the 2 but I'm a knit picker and am always in the settings changing and tweaking things.
I think when I upgrade to a 5.1.4 it will be easier to setup but that won't be for a while as a good 9 channel receiver is not in my price range right now.
Also my avr is a 2017 model (1st gen atmos) and I believe newer avrs have more dynamic atmos.
Your videos are awesome and I always learn something, looking forward to your next video
If you do not have rear surrounds you do not lose that audio on a 5.x.x system. It is folded into the side surrounds when decoded.
Yes! 100%! That’s what I said in my last video. The issue arises when the AVR thinks my surround speakers are behind me when they are actually in the sides.
@@TechnoDad the only solution I can think of in this space is to move the side surrounds forward some, and keep the rear surrounds in their current location. Either that or remove the surround back speakers from the equation.
@@TechnoDad but Channa, since you have no speakers behind you, where do you expect those sounds to go? If we can agree that nothing is lost in the process of converting 7 channels to 5 (which incidentally, you claim is NOT a the case in this video), rather those sounds are redirected to the most appropriate available speaker, then you have to expect “rear” sounds to come from the speakers furthest to the rear in your setup. This is why Dolby’s guidelines for 5.1 indicate placing the surrounds slightly behind the listening position, whereas their 7.1 guidelines allow for 90 degree side surrounds. The only solution I can see for this issue would be to use some sort of bi-pole/di-pole speakers that are intentionally designed to create a more diffuse, less directional sound.
@@1FastGXP he doesn’t have “rear” surrounds, his system is 5.1.X, not 7.1.X.
@@BeefyMon
Yes - you corect, the best solution for that case, to get bipole speakers, place it in between surr/back corner around a feet above your head and it’s best solution for 5.2.4
Greetings! I know this is an old video, but it just popped up in my feed. Not sure of your exact speaker placement restrictions, but would it be possible to aim those side surrounds at your back wall so the sound actually does come from behind the listening position, reflecting off the rear wall? If you have a sheetrock or smooth plaster rear wall behind the couch, reflecting sound off the rear wall should work pretty well. For pretty much all surround formats, if you have five ear level surround speakers, the surround speaker should be placed behind the listening position. If you listen to 7.1 channel native content (Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD Master Audio), the rear and side surrounds are folded into the surround channels with the assumption that the speakers are behind the listening position. If you don't have a wall directly behind your couch (like if it's an open concept floor plan with another living space behind the couch), then another option might be putting the rear speakers on the ceiling on brackets (behind the couch) pointed directly at the listening position, but I don't know how comfortable you are with snaking more cables. As long as they're lower than your height channels and are pointed directly at the main listening position, this can also work pretty well.
Your idea of switching from an actual immersive soundtrack to a non-immersive track like DTS HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and using Auro for upmixing might seem like a good idea. And it may actually sound fine on some content. But you won't be getting the actual sounds that have been mixed for the height channels in the height speakers in Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS:X, IMAX Enhanced or 360 Reality Audio. All of the object based surround formats (DTS:X, Dolby Atmos, 360 Reality Audio, MPEG-H, IMAX) store sounds as objects with meta data used to define the sound's 3D position and motion through space. At playback time, the receiver or processor maps these sound objects into the specific channel configuration of your speakers so it can place all of these 3D sound objects in the appropriate locations in the room. This is how a Dolby Atmos or DTS:X mix can sound pretty good in 5.1.2, while sounding even better in 7.1.4. The extra speaker channels give the receiver more placement specificity - more precision in the 3D mapping of the sounds.
If you opt to use a non-immersive format like Dolby TrueHD instead, the receiver has no positioning meta data, so it has no idea that a helicopter (for example) was supposed to take off from the front, and fly overhead disappearing in the rear. Or that rain is supposed to actually fall from above the listening position. Or that the harmony/chorus vocals in Bohemian Rhapsody are supposed to come from the top right and left corners of the room. All of that height positioning information is lost. You can take that 2 dimensional non-immersive surround sound track and "upmix it" in DTS Neural:X, Dolby Surround or the Auro upmixer, in order to create sound from above, but this isn't actually restoring the height information. The processor is *guessing* which sounds should be placed into the height channels. It's a little like taking a CD, ripping it to 128K MP3, and then "restoring" it to a 44.1KHz/16 bit FLAC file. Technically, you have a 44.1K/16 bit digital file as the end product, but the information that was lost in compression is lost, and can't be recovered. When you opt to use a channel-based 2D surround sound format like Dolby TrueHD instead of a Dolby Atmos mix of the same content, you've lost the actual 3D positioning of sounds and that isn't something that can be recovered or accurately simulated.
Hope this makes sense and I hope you've found a speaker configuration that works for you. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks if you like how your system sounds to you.
I have a 7.1.4 with my listening position against a wall, I just mounted the rears against the wall and the sides more centred along the side, its not ideal but I like the sound I get from the Atmos mix
I used dipole speakers positioned next to the couch firing back off the wall ’behind’ the seating position to give an approximation of rear speakers. Worked well enough tbh.
Interesting...
I do the same jingo. I love the SVS surrounds for this purpose. It works perfectly. My couch is against the wall with no room for rear surround backs. The SVS does a great job of separating the rear and rear backs.
Im so glad you are talking about this.
I am getting confused, maybe you can help clarify.
I have a 7.2.4 with a 12x25 room, my couch is against the back wall so I pulled it out a few feet to put rear surrounds behind the couch on stands so they clear the couch, then I put my side surrounds along the sides of the couch, then I mounted rear height speakers on the wall where it meets the ceiling for rear height speakers and in the front I have R625af towers with up-firing drivers in them for the front atmos speakers as I cant mount front heights right now in this room.
So having the X3700h I dont have auro 3d.
But I do have Neural X.
If I am understanding you right, up-mixing certain content will use my speakers more appropriately than a standard mix in some cases.
Where it is 5.1 mix for example on hulu live tv or other or DD+ for example, often it seems like my rear speakers aren't doing anything, my fronts, center and sides seem to do most of the work, unless I play a disc or a game that was mastered in 7.1.
Do I have that right?
What if anything can I do to use my rear surrounds more when watching bitstream/pcm/ 5.1 or DD+ content on live tv apps and other streaming services that offer those formats other than dts:x or Atmos so that I get audio in all my speakers?
And why is it with some things I cannot access Neural x but with others I can.
For example, when I use an app built into my tv WebOs, (I have the 77" CX) I do not get the option on my Denon for Neural X, but when I stream, through my xbx or firestick, I do get the option of using Neural x.
Thank you for any help understanding this a little better.
Hey Channah, I'm running a 5.2.4 system as well and this is what I did for my rears and I think it's worked out very well. I use bi-pole speakers placed in the corners of the room I sit slightly ahead of them at 110 degree angle and the wash sound down the front and side walls, the sound from the rears sounds like it's coming from 4 speakers, (technically correct) but you know what I mean.
Nice man! I love bi-poles. They work out so well as surround speakers.
William, I am also in a 5.2.4 setup, with my surrounds at 110 degrees. The surrounds face my main listening position. What do you mean by "and the wash sound down the front and side walls, the sound from the rears sounds like it's coming from 4 speakers"? Are you saying I should point my surrounds differently?
PRO TIP: For 5.1.2 systems... ...4K-UHD discs that do not have DOLBY ATMOS/DTS:X but instead have DTS:HD:MA... ...set your AVR to DTS:Neural:X and your Height Speakers will really come to life. Just got done watching the movie the 'TENET' and was blown away!
If you have a 5.1 system and playback a 7.1 soundtrack, you do NOT lose the surround back information at least on Denon/Marantz products that I tested this on ages ago. The surround back info is placed into the surround left and right.
Also if you have a 7.1 system and playback a 5.1 soundtrack, I'm not aware of any 7.1 AVR that did not have the Dolby Pro Logic IIx upmixer which would have sound come out of the surround back speakers for 5.1 soundtracks
@Wayfaerer I have a 5.1.2 system and haven't noticed the surrounds being too loud, they've been fine here
You are always very informative,you know you stuff Channa 👍🏾
Hi, Just found this video. I have a 12 x 12 ft. room with a window on one side(2nd floor). I really didn't want to hear back sound from the side as well. My solution? I bot a long live edge table, moved the couch forward and put them behind. It also helps the angle for the height speakers. (SVS primes). Your video helped me decide on these.
Next problem. Fitting a 100 inch screen on wall the same size wall. Need room for the height speakers on the top of the wall, towers on the side and a low bureau for the UST projector. That's for next year.
Thanks for your videos, keep them coming!!
Dave
Hi Chana..
I do have the same setup like you. I too feel that some sounds are not played exactly they are supposed to do.. Thanks for the video.. You are my man you got the exact video which no one is thinking about..
Thank you for watching!
Love your point about being into home theaters since 1994 and having your HT in the living room. I began with my first 5.1 setup in 1997 and never stopped. HT has come long ways and it keeps getting better, more sophisticated, and also more complex. I also have mine in a family room, even though we had a large room that even our builder was asking why we don’t make a home theater there, when we custom built the house 14 years ago. I just wanted my main room for watching TV and movies to also be the HT. Over the years thereafter, I noticed so many people with nice dedicated HT rooms almost never using it and mostly watching stuff in their not so ideal family room or living room TV with no surround.
and then you've got the problem where parents get mad at their kids for ruining the good leather or whatever seating they have too.
Yah, agreed. It makes sense to put it where it will be used.
I'm disappointed my living room isn't optimized for surround sound, but I'm about to make it work as well as I can.
That's what happens when you buy a house built in 1935.
Talking about not ideal, all of my speakers are 7 feet off the ground (except the sub). We do what we can as best as we can. I dont see the point in nit picking everyones set up or calling people out if they are just trying to enjoy entertainment. I am happy for the info you provide man.
I'm just now beginning my Atmos upgrade. I've been enjoying Dolby Digital & DTS since 2001. I'm a budget guy but have always been able to get good sound. The first thing I have noticed about the new surround sound is: I seem to enjoy the older stuff better & I don't like the up-mix. I prefer to turn on Pure Direct. It seems like we have added more speakers while, at the same time, tamped down all surround effects. I just can't seem to find great surround mixes anymore. The Flaming Lips put out 3 albums in 5.1 & Talking Heads released all 8 of their albums in 5.1 (these were all released during the gen 1). I still haven't heard anything since then that even comes close to what was achieved on these mixes. Especially The Flaming Lips albums. The worst part is, you just can't get these albums anymore. I'm lucky to own them. I think the next upgrade needs to be something in the way of programming our own surround mixes. If I could separate the tracks & place them where I want, I think I could make everything sound that good. We should just eliminate the need for surround mix engineering by creating a processor that can allow for this kind of customization. As it stands, surround sound isn't getting better, it's getting more watered down. Just like everything else.
According to your thorough explanation regarding the object based, personally, I have got the same room setup where I had to sit against the rear wall, I have got 5.1.2. setup. I remember somewhere Audioholics explained with the guy that mixed the ELP albums, CMIIW, that since the era of Front Height Channel, the object mixes would be put utilizing some coordinate between the centre and main front : then I put my height Channel at the front wall, facing to MLP, somewhere between Centre and Main Speakers, slightly above the screen. For the surround, I’d put it closer to the side walls (compared to the positions of the front mains) angled them to the centre of the room, somewhere above or below the position of the front height speakers (according how the ceiling can accommodate them), then put one or two 3D Diffuser panels at the rear, somewhere higher than the ear level and between the surround positions, plus one or two 2D Diffuser panels on each sidewalls between the main and surround channel of that sides, right after some absorption panel at the first reflecting zone of the main channel that affect the MLP on that wall. Cheers
Love ya T. D!! Mahalo for learning and helping us get though all this!! You are the BEST!!
Thank you for watching, Charles!
@@TechnoDad ALWAYS!!!
So I just saw this video for the first time and I have to say, there is another thing that happens in channel based set ups to simulate sound from a certain space in your area, and it’s to emit a certain amount of sound out of two speakers in space to try and make it sound like it’s coming from in between them, this can happen a lot with only having 5.1 and the sounds you need from behind, I used to have only 5.1 and even with them places not behind me but beside me, the processor would use the amount of sound pumped from them at the same time to simulate sound from behind, of course it’s not AS accurate as having the surround back speakers but I have had it seem like it was behind me through that technique
Are you going to buy me a new house so I can add more speakers? Oh no you are not. Okay maybe can we just stop all the stupid comments about how I don't have a proper room set up. Oh yeah don't forget to subscribe. 😅🤣😭. Love you Channa. Even more after this video.
Coming from someone who is just looking to buy something to get me started, can I say this is one of the most easiest videos I've seen in about 6 months of looking on TH-cam. I'M exactly in the same position as you. I can't put anything behind me. Our seating is right up against the wall. You need to make more videos on this very topic and advising what works best. Let's be honest here not many people have the ideal situation as a cinema layout. We have to compromise that is why in 6 months of watching so many different reviews opinions ect I still haven't bought a Dolby Atmos system. My budget is not very large maybe €1.500 and the Euro is about the same as the USD so I'm going to buy something that's value for money. I bet 95 percent if not 99 percent of people who are installing home sound systems are making very big mistakes. It's not until you listen to a friend's system you then realize man I'd love something like his are hers. Great information thank you man
When I get space and money for a home theatre setup, I have a multi-phase plan to start with a 2.2 setup and gradually build up to a 17.4 setup:
- Phase One: LG 77” OLED TV, Marantz AV 10/AMP 10, two Polk Legend L800 fronts and two Bowers & Wilkins DB1D subwoofers
- Phase Two: Polk Legend L400 centre, two Polk Legend L200 surrounds, and two more Bowers & Wilkins DB1D subwoofers
- Phase Three: two Polk Legend L200 surround rears and two Polk Reserve R900 front heights
- Phase Four: two Polk Legend L200 front wides, and two Polk Reserve R900 rear heights
- Phase Five: one Polk Reserve R900 centre height and three Polk 900-LS top middles/top surround
In between them, I would also collect the various playback devices and media I want, both modern and vintage.
Hi MASTER :
Thanks for all you video , I have Denon AVR -X 2400 I am very happy when this receiver .
This is my question ….. tho receiver work w/ 8 K tv? Thanks
I bought two speakers of brand DynaVoice, the Magic FX4,:to extend my system to a 7.1 system, even when I have a wall behind my sofa. Those speakers are angled. So what I did is put a shelve of 20cm wide behind the sofa and put the speakers on that firing towards THE WALL. Yes, I use the wall the add dispersion to that sound so you can locate them less. The trick is to choose the right height of the shelve (basic geometry) and voila, you have a 7.1 system. Now, a tricky part is the DSP of your avr. Old DSPs are slow, so they can't handle well speakers with a very short distance (remember distance is just a relative delay between the speakers). More modern avrs can handle 30cm or more, but old avr may have a minimum distance of 100cm. In the later case you need to add manually a delay to each speaker (a delta) to again a correct relative distance. Just be careful with subs if they are directly connected to your front speakers (not via sub out) than this doesn't work. Via sub out it is no problem.
I smell what you’re cooking Channa… I have learned so much from watching the past two videos that you did on this subject and reading these comment sections. This is awesome, LOVE your work my friend… BOOM!!
I have a system 5.1.2 atmos and I have hooked up my rear speakers to the terminals labeled on avr "Surround" L and R on the back of it . and tow speaker on high roof for atmos ,
2 speaker front
1 center
2 speaker surround rear my seat
2 speaker top middle high
My question is that there are also terminals on avr for a "Surround Back" L and R as well. Do I have my speakers hooked up to the right terminals (or should I hook them up to the "Surround Back" terminals)? Which is better to deliver on the receiver surround or surround back / if you have tow speaker only for surrounded
You are off again, our AVR's when running setup, actually asks and shows you where your speakers are placed and recommended. I actually agree with your previous hypo, ATMOS tries to send sounds out to a locale or space, contingent on what speakers you have. So this is some folding in present speakers. Those test tones are made for people who actually have that setup, if your setup doesn't match, it will fold to whats available .
Yes, the AVR knows I don’t have surround back, but it still thinks my surround speakers are behind my MLP. There’s no way to tell the AVR that the surrounds are flanking my MLP when in a 5.1.x setup.
@@TechnoDad actually they do, you forget, you placed a MIC at your MLP, and its using tones for distance away from you. For all we know, the way the sound is picked up and translated. That last part was speculation, but they at least know distance. And the decoding is sent to the locale where a surround would be but you didn't place it accordingly.
@@HomeTheaterCommish Distance, yes, but direction, no. Since almost all mics for room correction are mono, there's no way to tell *where* in a 3d space the sound came from, just how long it took to get there, and those that *do* have stereo mics don't use that information meaningfully for anything other than the room correction itself. As far as the receiver is concerned, for 5.1 and 7.1.2+, your speakers are at 90degrees from you, and for 5.1.2 the side surrounds are at 110degrees. Unless you have a receiver with a specific setting to input the exact degrees each speaker is placed at(which doesn't exist afaik), it's all treated as if they're in the exact same spot the reference is for a given surround codec.
@@donm9090 I agree Don, but good AVRS run thru a setup that ask you if you have a specific speaker and since its coded to how Dolby& DTS want their speakers placed, then its in a GEO location for a GEO coded sound . Forgive the GEO, just for the example.I have WIDES in my system. I watched a movie with a crawling creature and the sound came clearly from that LOCALE, I changed the setup and the sound emanated from the fronts but that as PROMINENT. So perhaps a mixing engineer has a TEMPLATE from DOLBY/DTS and the engineer sets up the sound for locales where speakers might be if a SPEAKER rich environment and then the AVR decoder decodes to the amount that is setup in its system. I blow friends away with my 9.2.4 setup (in a regular 18x14 room) and I tried t place the speakers as close to DOLBY reference as possible. But at times I have changed the configuration just to see how it sounds. Some sounds are still in the basic area just matrixed from different speakers. BTW I love the dialogue from the enthusiasts on this subject.
@@HomeTheaterCommish I feel like you might be confusing the up/down mixing process with where the speakers are physically placed in space. Atmos/DTS:X *do not* care where they are, because as far as they are concerned there's only 1 place those speakers *should* be, and that's how it treats them, regardless of how many speakers you have in total and what the setup is. Outside of standard 7.1, the rest is entirely upmixing on the vast majority of movies, because almost none have dedicated channels past 7, and *all* height speakers for Atmos and DTS:X are "upmix" based on your specific speaker layout and the sound's 3d xyz metadata. For what it's worth, consider speaker distances as nothing more than time alignment, because that's all the receiver actually does with that information, add delays to the sound coming from the nearest channels until all sounds from every channel reach you at the same time, but what that cannot make up for is a speaker placed out of alignment. It can only fix speakers being different distances from you. That's how Atmos and DTS:X are designed, for data efficiency's sake. It'd take up too much space to have 13 or even more discreet channels of uncompressed audio data on the disc and further, trying to stream that data through an already struggling cable like HDMI with the assumption video must also go through that cable, 7.1+ the metadata is enough with the original audio source to know *exactly* where each sound needs to be placed, and the upmixer can compare that against what extra speakers you have in your system to add that data in for finer placement control.
I also had this problem with my surround rear speakers at my old home where the rear speakers had to be placed on each side of the couch for my wife would not allow me to hang them on the wall so what I did was face each speaker towards the wall so that the audio would bounce of the wall and adjusted the surround settings until it sound good enough. It wasn't perfect but it did work better than hearing the rears on the side of your ear.
I have the 7.2.2 setup and yes my surrounds are on the sides but I put my chair about a foot from the back wall. Cant put a speaker back there but it makes back surrounds a little more recessed. Im running a yamaha 2080 and when I run the test tones it puts the sound in speakers with no surround and back surround blend.Content sounds great.
I am in the same boat, I have a small space, couch against a wall, and no other option for a different arrangement. I have an old 90s Dolby ProLogic2 reciever that is on its way out, and a 5.1 Bose speaker setup...
It has been OK for movies, but definitely could be better, and it sounds pretty rubbish for music. I've been looking to get a new AVR and then some different speakers for over a year now, amd am trying to decide if I should even try for 7.x.x , or 5.x.x, or just go with a better 5.1 setup. I may start with just 5.1, with a modern AVR, and then test out some rear height speakers, or armor speakers on the ceiling , and see if it is worth the upgrade to 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 ... I might buy a 9 or 11 channel unit ,for other features, as I want a zone 2 for outdoor speakers, a second HDMI out for a second screen for times like when we have people over for football or other such occasions...
I wish there was an easier way to figure out what is best in my space before just buying things...anything modern will be an upgrade though. Thanks for what u do trying to help us all learn and make good purchases. Cheers.
Whenever I want to hear sound coming from all speakers. My current set up is 7.2.4n I just set my X4700h to multi channel stereo lol. When my Apple tv4k movies come in Atmos my Denon switches. Sometimes I chose Multichannel Stereo over Dolby.
Well I'm using the Sony str dn 1080 with my rear speakers to the sides but I'm also using the phantom back channels and it works a treat. It is set up in a 7.1.2 config and you really can hear things directly behind you. I tried it with startrek into darkness when the enterprise comes out of the water it sounds like it's right behind you then lifts out and flies up into the height channels then the front. Great processing from the amp
The Star Trek 'Into The Darkness' 4K-UHD intro, is the only ATMOS Disc that I use to calibrate all of the home theater systems that I install as it has the Best Mix of Treble, Surround, Height, and Bass sounds.
Awesome videos! I was always under the impression that if you don't have enough speakers on what the channel-based mix entails, then the AVR or processor would just downmix to your current speaker configuration. For example, if I'm watching a 7.1 True-HD Mix, and I only have a 3.1 system, then I was under the assumption that the Denon/Marantz AVR would just take the surround and back channel information and downmix them it to the 3.1 system. Therefore, I wouldn't be losing any audio information, I just wouldn't be hearing it from the correct locations they were intended to be heard from. Am I correct here or do I actually lose the sound information completely?
I think you are correct about your AVR downmixing. Maybe cheaper units don't downmix so they just omit the channels you don't have? In my case, part of the speaker calibration setup is to tell the unit which speakers I have. If I tell it I don't have a center speaker, it does NOT just delete that channel and you don't hear it; it mixes that audio into the other channels.
You are correct, Juan, you will not lose any of the sound information at all. Your AVR will downmix the sound to whatever you have. Naturally, if you don't have rear surrounds you will not hear sounds coming from behind you as convincingly as if you did have rear surrounds, but you will be able to hear those sounds from your side surrounds, and your side surrounds will image the rear sounds the best they can to give you the impression the sound is coming from behind you.
@@frankvee Frank, do the lower-end, "bottom of the line" units also downmix like this?
So i do have a 5.1.2 setup. I don’t have the best room for this, i live in a single wide trailer so my living room shares with my kitchen, but i have my atmos speakers above my tv fireing out like the wall of sound and i like it alot like that and my rear surround are put up on the wall at 7feet in the air i have 8 foot ceilings and there put as if they were flanking my left and right, and i use the klipsch 500sa and from how i can hear it. Thos do a pretty good placement wise that i feel like i would hear objects coming from behind me to the front. I don’t want them too far back because then it would be fireing on the kitchen and I don’t need that. But it’s the best placement i have to get the best surround sound experience at home. Just my thoughts and experience on this and I’m hoping i can get a bigger place soon to correct this and add further channels to the setup.
Hi Channa I have been having that same issue with my Surround back speaker where they don't want to play any sound. I even have them hooked on there own Emotivia Amplifier
That's odd. What are you playing with them and what AVR do you have?
@@TechnoDad I have the Onkyo TX-RZ-1100 Reciever
What if you’re running a 5.1.4 setup with front and rear heights? Surrounds are on the sides of the main listening area. Both front and rear heights are angled towards the main listening area.
What about Dolby or DTS upmixer? Auro 3D is a paid license where the other 2 are included
I'm building a 5.1.4 atmos system, and my couch is up against the wall. where should I put my surround speakers?
Hey loved the video, what demo disk did you get?
Check eBay for Dolby Atmos Demo Disc.
You spoiled my plans for 7.4.4 Channa, now I’ll have to “settle” on 5.4.4 :) Thanks for the great info!
LOL, sorry!
My room is:
5.7m long (Sitting at 4.7m from the front)
3.72m wide (Speakers 3.3m L to R a bit back)
2.7m high Sealing
Wanne go 5.1.4
*1m back / 1.65m to each side / at 2.45m (on the backwall above a window aiming at me)
=>H2-L & R [Back height speakers]
* 1.7m or 1.6m Front / 1.65m to each side / at 2.6m (10cm of the sealing aiming at me)
=> H1-L & R
* Rest 1.2m high at 5.1 setup (What i use now)
Would this be ok?
Would be using a DENON AVR-X3800H
Adhd.. i get lost in these videos, but if i play a video game. My 5.1 create a phantom rear so i hear accuratly things behind me. Even tho i dont have speakers there. Are you saying atmos content do not do this? And that we need rear surrounds, not just side surrounds like i n a back almost against the wall 5.1 setup? I am looking to get height speakers but lost as to how to mount, what speaker to use, and also where to mount.. too much conflicting info online.
Where is a Dolby Atmos demo disk available?
I also have my 5.1.4 setup in living room without the sofa against the walls. My living room is not a single room so it branches out to the dinning room, kitchen and living entry room. My side surrounds are behind my sofa angled at me in center. The sound setup seems to be correct hopefully. I don't think we all need to take speaker setups seriously because sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to make it work in limited room in homes. Most average joes will not spend more than 5k-10k on home theater setup in their living room. I think you already have a great setup and thanks for letting us know how to make it sound better. For 7.1.4 setup I do want rear surrounds but that is 2ft behind my head so is that bad?
So, interesting Video and wanted to chip in as well. I've not been into home theater since '94, but have been in it since 98'. So started with Dolby pro logic ( VHS tapes) then we got DD 5.1 which was discreet channel based 5.1, so whether you had your rears to the back or to the sides ( I had them to the sides then as I had no space behind me; it was a bedroom) sound would play through them obviously regardless of placement of the surrounds. Then we got DD EX & DTS ES. those formats introduced 6.1 however the signal for the sixth speaker ( which was supposed to be a rear center speaker so placed dead center behind you ) was matrixed into the 5.1 mix, so a capable EX/ES decoder would send the matrixed information to that sixth speaker where applicable. Then the 7.1 Receivers became a thing, but they were still decoding 5.1 with or without matrix for the sixth channel, however like with Dolby Pro logic, the 2 back rears would be mono, not stereo. Since it is harder to hear sounds straight behind you but easier if they are a bit to the sides behind you, this was considered to be an upgrade. I had one of those 7.1 SR9600 Marantz receivers which was a monster in its heydays. The 2 Monaural channels behind you would not be used if there was no info matrixed in for Dolby Digital EX. However for DTS you had DTS ES Matrix but also DTS ES Discrete !. So DTS ES discrete 6.1 was by far the best sounding format due to the highest bit rate.
Enter Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master audio, now most AV receivers had still 7.1 and now we also had 7.1 discrete channels for both Dolby & DTS if you had an AVR that could decode both formats. Now with Atmos and DTS-X you have more channels than people can decode at home and they are object based. so if a specific sound is supposed to be heard in a specific spot your Atmos/DTS-X avr should be using all the available speakers to help place that sound in that Spot, while trying to keep things natural, so no rear sounds blasting from your fronts. Obviously having speakers set up in the ideal pattern will make it easier for your AVR to put those sounds in that spot, but if you've used some room correction system to calibrate your room, your "rears" should be working in whichever way they can to place those sounds in your room. So if you have them more to the side you will obviously hear sounds coming more from the side, but I do not think information meant for your rears will be lost just because you are running 5.1.2 or 5.1.4 and have your rears to the sides.
There are still 5.1 systems sold which use Di- or Bi-pole solutions and those are actually meant to be placed to your sides, using room reflection to create a more spacious experience, however they would be far less suited for discrete channels/Object based formats.
In closing, I see no reason why you would need to use an Auro3d upmixer to get sounds meant for your rears ( not back rears) to play to your rears if they are on your side. Sounds should be coming from your side placed rears regardless. As Atmos & DTS X scale to accommodate your speaker layout by default. Now if that sounds natural to you or if it is in fashion with the artistic intent is another thing altogether. But the way it was explained in the video made it seem that if you have your rears to your sides, you would lose info meant for your rears and they would not play at all.
i would just pull the sofa foward into the room when im going to watch a film,, and put it back after it finished,, job done lol
This is a great video I'm using the denon 760h I have 5 speakers 2 subwoff and 2 atmos speakers you just solved a problem for me....
What about moving your couch a little bit to the front?
Yeah, that won't work due to the size and shape of the room.
I have 6.2.2, sofa on back wall, and single rear speakr in bay window area. It sounds like it should with surrounds at 6ft. I often think about having side surround speakers at ear level, and side height speakers, but it's hard to justify. Dispite what I have heard about a single rear speaker, I think it works well if it's your only rear channel option. If I didn't have the bay window, I wouldn't hesitate to install an in-wall speaker in that location. It's rare in movies to have much sound coming from behind, but there is an abience that helps create a more 3D immage within the surround, and real field. Things like cars passing, and bullets wizzing by have a more realistic spacial since.
Thanks to buying a new house i have had my 5.1.2 surrounds both ways and i gotta say haveing them to the side sounds much more immersive seeing as how we dont hear sounds that well behind us i was missing out on all the subtle sounds. So im happier with them on the sides.
This was helpful for drawing attention to problem I have with back against wall, but was hopeful for simpler solution for us on a budget without pricey AVR and 5 ceiling speakers.
Thank you for the follow up video. Where did you get that Atmos demo disc?
I got one from eBay.
I am adding two in ceiling speakers soon along with an Anthem AVR. In my current 5.1 I do not really feel I am missing anything, other than sound from the ceiling. I am ok with a 5.1.2 set up. The room is just too small otherwise.
I have a really similar set up to you, currently 5.1 but I’m going to add two higher Channels when I can. My opinion is my set up sounds AMAZING I’m sure others sound better than mine but when I sit down and watch a movie I just enjoy it! As for sounds coming from “the wrong place” I’d far rather hear those sound effects in the wrong place than not hear them at all
I have a 7.2.4 would 5.2.6 be better. The reason is I've changed my back speakers to elevated speakers on the back wall
My set up is sofa against the wall and no Walla on the side . Any suggestions ?
That’s a tough one! I would put the surround speakers flanking the couch
@@TechnoDad thank you sir!
I just purchased a Denon x4800h and looking at ditching my 7.1 setup because really the room layout for it is horrible. Would a 5.1.4 better solution with Auro 3D? Proper rear speakers is a no go and would have a better layout with them to the sides. I have 20' ceilings and would put the height channels towards the top of the wall.
Does the distance between the Atmos overhead speakers can be 4.5ft or needs to be more? I really don't have too much space if I follow this recomendations. Please let me know. Thanks.
Would you cover using headphones for Dolby Atmos? I find many for gaming but little mention of the best headphones for listening to movies and music. I have tried high-end Bose and Sony and hear the Atmos effect but wondering if I am missing the best true atmos effect.
Does the same apply for non-Atmos set ups? Listening to an Atmos track down mixed to my 5.2.0. Sounds better than the 7.1 down mix.
Great info
What your thoughts on connecting side surrounds from the av receiver but placing them in the back surround position
Maybe not placed directly behind but more corner position might sound better
Have you tried putting your surrounds behind your couch? I think I might try that, because I'm kinda all in on this Atmos. I have a ceiling fan, so Auro ain't happening anyhow.
Hi Robert! I can’t put them behind the couch. I don’t have that luxury with my room.
We all have to make some sacrifices on our systems.
Don't discount how the room correction software on modern receivers can compensate for speaker location and provide a great virtualisation of accurate sound location and placement. I know my Yamaha A4A does angle measurements for the speakers along with distance and I can only assume they use all this info to place the sounds as best they can in the 'correct' locations.
I have a Denon 4800h with a 5.2.4 setup and my first 5 are standard and 4 overhead but I've been curious if my rear heights would be better as back surround , dolby sp ,or keep it as I have it setup as rear heights? Keep in Mind my seating position is against the wall like yours. Let me know what you think. Mind my new denon 4800h can do auro 3d , auro 2d ..etc . I do like how my Neural X sound , I think it sounds better than Atmos . I'm open for thoughts and opinion Techno Dad.
Another very good video. Thanks. Question: Where/How can I obtain settings that are needed to get the tactile "bass" for my family room 5.1 (2 independent subs)"home theater"? Before BB's Geeks came to calibrate the speakers, we were able to feel the waves and wind on the front of our legs/chins plus thumps in our chest while watching a movie. Now we don't get that feeling at all. (LG OLED 77CX, Denon AVR 4700h, UB820 BlueRay. We are using eARC. Older Polk Tower speakers and Center + 2-REL T/9Xs)
Hi! Did you run Audyssey before Geek Squad game to calibrate?
@@TechnoDad Thanks for the reply. Geek Squad actually ran the Audessy setup during their setup, but then also made some additional "tweaks"
@@LeeG260 I know that Audyssey really makes bass anemic. I would suggest getting a custom calibration from Joe N Tell, but it's not cheap and you will need to know how to measure speakers and what not. His calibration will make your system sing and your bass slam! Contanct him for a consultation - bit.ly/JNTBook
@@TechnoDad Thanks!
i have the denon x4400h and i have it setup 5.1.2 and using the dolby test files when the sound plays the side surround the denon plays the front and surround and when it plays the surround back it plays my surround.
Where did you get "the dude" wall art? I've been searching and searching but I cannot find that print. Keep up the great work/videos, I've learned a great deal about Dolby Atmos from you!
Hi! That's a painting our friend did a while back. Thank you so much for watching!
I'm confused...but aren't you now going have the behind sounds now coming from above at ceiling level? Or because it's speaker based that doesn't happen. I don't have this problem but would like to understand to help others that might. What setting are you changing on the AVR?
Question for you what's the difference between the denon s760 and the Denon AVR x1700h
Not a whole lot. Feature wise they are pretty much the same thing. The X line is the more advanced, but it's really hard to tell a difference between those two models.
Thanks
What is a good 9.1 or 9.2 channel receiver to get
I am sitting against the wall. I would like to upgrade my 5.1 system to atmos. Should I get 5.1.4 or just 5.1.2 because rear hight speakers won’t be rear, but above me. Will this make movies better or even worse because of wrong location of the sound.
for me useing two stereo speakers with voicemeeter as a 5.1 i have the same issue i have one speaker in front of me one behind me (not to the side of me fully behind my head) windows sees my rear channles as side channles so any audio that comes from my rear channles is then mixed to my sides for movies and tv but in games i tested and sounds comeing from behind me i still hear behind me sounds comeing from my surround left and right comes from the speaker in front of me or uses both the front left and surround left together to create the effect of a surround i found this only in garrys mod for the most part and games that support 5.1 work normally any game with atmos is mixed to 5.1 thru atmos but i dont have atmos home theatre setup i assume thats just the decoder used for atmos games in general despite configureation i am thinking about makeing windows think its a 7.1 system and just not have side channles tho
Channa, did you not use something like Audyssey when setting up your upstairs home theater? If so, surely that should have detected that you have no back surround speakers but only side rear surround speakers and therefore know which parts of the 5.1 and 7.1 audio tracks to feed those speakers so everything sounds as it should?
Yeah, the AVR knows there’s no surround back, but it still thinks the surrounds are behind my MLP.
First off I love the content, always have. I'm literally in the exact same conflict right now. My couch is against the wall and I have a 5.2.2 system. My Atmos are in ceiling and I was wondering if I should put two more Atmos on the back wall pointing down kind of similar to yours. Did that make a difference?
Getting your couch off the back wall would be more beneficial for your listening then getting the extra height channels! Knowing I've got an audiophile grade atmos set up, I had to spend nearly £2,000 to get my rear Heights but it was only when I moved the couch an extra foot (2 ft total) from the back wall, was when I really experienced the best audio.
Here's a short 3-minute video of my small room setup...
th-cam.com/video/O_fp8aZiiSM/w-d-xo.html
@@Totalplonker very nice I like your setup. Yeah that's pretty much about the space that I have but I do see that you have back Atmos speakers as well. I'll post a video on my TH-cam page when I get time and I'll let you know so you can see what I'm working with.
@@Totalplonker here's the video of my setup. Any advice would be great! th-cam.com/video/49Z2owB_wFU/w-d-xo.html
@@darkashkev5461
Now that is what you call a home theatre screen 👍
first of all, are you able to place the centre channel on the top rack of the av stand without visual obstruction, if not at least get a wedge underneath the centre channel speaker (with blu-tack) so its pointing in the direction of your ears! As far as your rear Heights are concerned.. if you've already got a 9 Channel receiver, then I would utilise its fullest potential but just be aware if you do install rear Heights you're going to have to lower the surrounds to ear level, I had the same problem, here's another 3 minutes short video...
th-cam.com/video/xvdqI5qZa6g/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for posting the video! Wouldn't it be great if anyone posted their setups 😁
@@Totalplonker yeah that Center channel is too big to set on the top I'm looking at a different stand for that. You probably can't see it in the video but it is actually pointed up at my listening position. If I went ahead and move it to my chair out about a foot. Then moved the surround sound speakers on stands could I do in walls as my back Channel and then put ceiling speakers on the back as well. I do have a Denon 4700h so I have the capabilities of adding two more sets of speakers. Let me know your thoughts
I’ve got a Marantz receiver in an L shaped room open to the dining room. The system allows for 7.2.2 Dolby Atmos, but I can’t put speakers in the ceiling. The sitting area is approximately in the room center. In the rear of the room the speakers all up high above cabinets. 2 subs left and right on the floor. The others at head height.
Should I be moving or replacing speakers? Changing the sound settings?
Am I really missing out not having atmos in my 7.1 system. Do the over head channels really make a big difference. Cost wise.
Thx for your informative videos.
I used to test my system using games like Skyrim and I would move my character around to see how the sound was playing - may not be consistent for all input sources but it helped me see how things sound behind me with a 5.2.4 setup
the new halo is great for this. its mixed very well
I didn’t consider this. Since I don’t have height speakers, assumed Dolby Atmos tracks were playing as Dolby True HD. I have my dipoles to my immediate sides, but do have them ever so slightly behind my viewing position, as my futon is slanted and puts me about a foot from my back wall.
Cool stuff, definitely learned a lot. I’m on the Atmos 5.1.2 and recognize the issue with my couch against the wall… only comments I get: to bad, maybe you should change your livingroom… So now I will ivestigate the Auro 3D upmixing route… starts with a receiver like a X4700 and extra heightspeakers?
So my sound is doom, because i have the same set up and also i can't put ceilling speakers. So my setting is a 5.1.2 and i won't ear specials surronding sounds or any real Atmos. Thanks for the infos.
Thank you for this video. I appreciate the content. I have a newly setup media area. Though my sitting space isn't flush against the back wall, I face a similar limitation because I have no full rear wall to place 'back surrounds" (7.1.4). With that being said I am running a 5.1.4. My concern is should I be rethinking using object based sound and maybe switch to channel based sound as you said. I wonder if I could use my rear heights as rear surrounds instead, would my ear level soundstage be fuller? When listening to most atmos mixes, like the bird flapping winged demo, the transition from left, to behind, to right sounds decent. But I'm interested in feedback to know if I can improve it.
I am in that situation because is the bedroom but I got the bed a foot out and got the smallest speakers I could find which I hate such speakers but with those little M1s now they about 4 inches behind me I known it's not the best but at least are behind me now and I can continue with the 7.2.4 I'm doing a compromise I wish I could put towers speakers everywhere but I can't for the back surround,now for all highest speakers what is large speakers I always wondered about this?
Which of these multi channel technologies do the best job with music? If you can answer, could you include Yamaha Presence as a comparison. I would love a video on this topic if possible. Last time I invested in surround was a couple years ago, and for t=me the sweet spot was DSX Wide. I went with an Onkyp 3007 and 9.2, I'm still pretty happy with it, but I'm not sure how much life the Onkyo has left in it. I think High end Denon is the spiritual successor here, but I'm willing to experiment elsewhere. New Sony, Yamaha etc.
Hi, thanks for the video. I need some help. I also have a 5.1.4 speakerset ( with the 4 ceilingspeakers) and my couch is also against the wall. Could you show me how did you set up ( small drawing) your room with the positioning of the speakers.
I have the same problem with my surroundspeakers standing next to the couch on earhights. Problem is my positioning of the 4 heightspeakers. Thanks
@technodad!! Can you run a set of smaller in or on-wall speakers directly behind the couch? That is honestly the best way to get those “point sources“ of sound back into your room. Since it’s so close to your listening position, you also don’t need the typical huge diameter drivers (just set a crossover to 150 Hz or so for those rear channels). Also in a pinch, if there is a triangle of space behind your couch, or you have the ability to move your couch six or so inches off of the wall, you can either put the speakers built into a small “console“ table top right behind the couch, or just lay them on the floor (it sounds like a terrible idea, but in reality, when only let’s say 1 to 5% of the movies sounds are coming from those surround back speakers, there’s more value in getting the sound “out“ of the system compared to it being perfectly at ear level and/or direct line of sight to your ears. Try these last two ideas with a cheap set of throwaway speakers you may have around the house and see how you like it!! (You can use anything like and old set of Bose cube speakers, gallo acoustics micro, or elipson 4” models)
Very interested to hear how this works out if you try it!!
Cheers
-J
I also don't have an ideal HT room, the back of my seating position is open to the Kitchen with no wall there. I still get great sound with my 7.1.2 setup despite this. My dilemma is should I be using my furthest back speakers as rear height or do I use the two speakers for surround back. I'm running an Onkyo Tx-RZ820 AVR with an OSD 5 channel ext. amp. I noticed how I have them wired now, it doesn't show all my speakers on the AVR front panel when in Atmos however, they are on.
I want to upgrade my home theater setup. Right now I have an old Yamaha receiver with 7.1. I want to upgrade to 7.1.4 or 7.1.2 or 5.1.4 or 5.1.2 ? ….Which do you think is best ? ….the recover I want to use is the Denon x1700 or Denon s760 from Costco. Or other receiver . Which setup is best ?…..
Hi! If you are going with either of those AVRs, you will only have 7 channels, so either 7.1 or 5.1.2. If you want Atmos, then you'll need to go 5.1.2.
Techno Dad, can you tell me what was the demo disc you were using or a link please?
Quick question I have 5.1.4 surround sound set up. Will Emotiva BasX A7 work.
Many thanks for this video, it's completely changed my thought process in regards to my room setup. I've been going back and forth between the Sony HT-A9 for simplicity or proper discreet setup using an entry level kit like the Klipsch 5.1.4 kit with an AVR, but i'm in the same situation where my sofa is up against the wall, so i'm not really going to get the benefit of either system and might as well just get a soundbar to improve the general tv audio quality
Well...it is a bit of a strange situation. I don't think it will be bad per se, it's just not going to be optimal with the couch up against the wall. The AVR/Speakers route will sound the best, but if you don't want to bother, then the Sony HT-A9 will provide a good overall experience, but you will need the subwoofer, which then brings you into the AVR/Speakers setup.
Wanted to get to you before you make the Pioneer video. Seems like an obvious direct competitor for the Onkyo RZ50. However, I’ve read in few places that the Pioneer only allows one crossover setting for all speakers, not independent settings. Can you please confirm or deny that in your review, as I feel it would be a deal breaker for a lot of people.
I will look into this!
I have 5. 1. 4 mine are limited as well, as my Lounge is up against the wall and I have my Atmos speakers mounted high on the wall pointing down at rear and front tilted down , using
A laser pointer to aim the speakers, but I never
Hear from the Atmos front speakers even turned up all the way or even with Auro 3-d
Thanks Channa for the videos. I have a very close set up to yours running a 5.2.4 set up and running my surround speakers on each side of my listening position. Previously had a 7.2.2 set up which now I’m regretting that I changed the configuration. What do you think of using the Dolby Surround or Neural X since you mentioned using Auro 3D ?
I am debating going back to a 7.2.2 set up and converting the rear height speakers back to surround back.
I would give it a try and see what you like and what sounds good to you.
@@TechnoDad I have tried both and I find pro’s and con’s about using the upmixer or staying with the format on the source. Being a purist….my mind always says I should be sticking to the original source coding.
Hi guys..I have a 5.2.2 with my height speakers right behind my coach pointing down obviously. I have my little satellites speakers turned sideways. Horizontal. I tried them both ways.(many times). And in my opinion they sound better that way. Plus I turned the height ones up a db or two and it makes a big difference to me. Just something to throw around s. Peace!
I'm setting up a new HT setup and I'm deciding between aura 3D and Dolby Atmos setup. Which would you recommend and why? And is today's AVR upmixing to Aura 3D convincing? Thanks
How about the use of dipoles for back restrictions