After your departure in Athens, the works you noticed concerns the same line, which will be soon underground from the Station to the external suburbs of Athens. Also, the Phase 2 of rebuilding the Athens Central Station is about to kick-off as well, so the "tunnel" amongst the old lines will disappear soon eventually. They are in discussion to privatize both Athens and Thessaloniki stations to private investors so that they might be renovated.
I’m not sure the Pendolino you rode had its tilting system in function…in Italy they don’t work anymore because Trenitalia decided they’re “too expensive” to maintain. So as long as this comes straight from my country, I expect they sold it without the tilting system.
Don't worry the Greeks never used TrainOSE (as a name) and no-one will call it Hellenic Train. We simply say OSE or train. I never understood their need to make it more complicated. First with TrainOSE and now with Hellenic Train.
I remember watching this video when it came out. I was surprized by the fact that the Greek railway network seemed in pretty good conditions. Now I learn that almost the whole network is not even regulated with a proper telephonic block system, but with some sort of step-by-step radio comunication (like if it was a perpetual shunting movement). To see this video now, with the counciousness of what happened few days ago, feels pretty scary.
Hello, I'm so glad that you made a trip report at my country. The reason that the people doesn't choose ETR, it's because the ticket is too expensive. The train also cannot reach 200 km/h due to the out of order signalling. My country has serious problems in railway network.😥😥
@@colors6692 basically the Greek railway company TrainOSE was bought by the Italian company FS group (the ones owning Trenitalia). Since those trains weren't used in Italy, they decided to use them in Greece after refurbishment. It was cheaper than buying new ones, probably.
Ρε φίλε τρέλα μας πουλάς 50 ευρώ για αθήνα-θεσσαλονίκη είναι ακριβό το εισιτήριο πόσο θέλεις να το βάλουν 5 ευρώ.. σχετικά με την Ευρώπη είναι απο τα πιο φθηνά εισιτήρια Μία χαρά είναι η τιμή.. μας τρελάνεις τώρα ολοκαίνουργιο τρένο το θέλεις και τζάμπα
To be completed Athens to Patras, really look to be first class engineering achievements. 45 years ago, I went all round Greece with bicycle…..now everything is completely unrecognisable with excellent roads.
As a Greek and frequent user of this trip, with this train, I have a few guesses on why they run empty. One is reliability. In the past and also with these new trains, there are delays quite often, breakdowns and punctuality issues. Second is the price. As I said, I used to use the train to travel from Larisa to Athens and back. First class was almost 60 with the previous train, now is 96 (round way). That is almost double. If you also take into account the fact that the duration is almost identical, then there´s no point choosing the ETR instead of the other. Finally, scheduling is also a problem. Someone who want to be early in the morning in Athens, traveling from Thessaloniki, has no other choice to take the plane. It´s (in my opinion) stupid to have a train arriving in Athens (althouh close to the center) at 11:30... no time for any kind of business especially when all public services and banks close at around 2 pm....
I used the Train in late May 2020 to go from Athens to Volos (via Larissa) and back. I took the new train at 7h22 from Athens to Larissa non stop. Very positive experience. The Larissa-Volos-Larissa segment was not bad, albeit older trains and several stops, it is a short distance so it didn't really matter. On the Larissa-Athens segment, I got on the "regular" intercity (not the express) .. Several stops on the way, only a small difference in the duration (15 minutes or so)...and it was fine. It cost me 39 euros to go and 34 to come back, total 73 euros. I was happy with my experience and plan to do it again soon.
The “cisalpino” was so notorious for breaking down that the Swiss railways always kept an extra train in the train station where trips through the elps begin and many Swiss instead of calling it “cisalpino” called it “schiss-alpino.” The Greek equivalent of schiss is something like kopros.
Glad you enjoyed our little italian boi! Actually, the seats are the same as before! I hope the etr470 will fix the reputation of the greek railways. It's a good train, let's see how it cuts travel time. Greetings from Italy! (:
I recently traveled with the normal IC service. It is not just 10 euros cheaper as you write in the video, it's a lot more. Round trip 2nd class with the ETR costs around 110 euros, while normal IC just 60 or 70 for 1st class, because it has round trip discount. The ETR doesn't. Travel time is just 20 min. longer. The result? My train was packed! Almost full!
Μαλακίες έφεραν ως συνήθως μας αυτά που μας πούλησαν οι Ιταλοί τα τρένα που έχουν παρατήσει εδώ και 10 χρόνια και χαιρόμαστε από πάνω!! Αυτοί έχουν πλέον τρένα που πιάνουν 330 την ώρα σαν εκείνα της Γαλλίας, γιατί δεν μας δώσανε τα ίδια?? Λέω εγώ τώρα
The reason for the speed reduction until the installation of ETCS has to do with the Greek signalling system, it relies on lights mounted at the side of the tracks to relay if a train needs to slow down or stop. Other systems such as ETCS (European standard that isn't tied to one company with a monopoly on it), TVM (French, designed by Alstom), LZB (German, designed by Siemens), TBL2 (Belgian),... are based upon cab signalling (information is relayed through a screen in the train), instead of lights on the side of the track. ETCS (and the others) ensures that the train driver can see the signal (something that can't be guaranteed when you expect the train driver to look at light signals at 200 km/h or more) and slow down in time for the next signal if the train is told to slow down or stop. This is regardless of capacity of the line, the previous train might have stopped due to a problem, an oncoming train might have crashed and blocked both tracks,... And this information needs to be reliably relayed through a cab control system, with ETCS being the gold standard and the EU wishing to retire basically all other systems in the long run, especially on important and cross border routes to enable fairer competition between railway companies (freight and passenger)
Spanish train driver here, everything you said is correct. But the part where you claim that the trackside signals are not suitable for running faster than 160 km/h is not always true; here in my country we can use trackside signals for up to 200, and cab signalling for higher speeds. My guess is that the reason why the Greek trackside signals don't allow for higher than 160 speeds is the distancing between signals and the length of blocks. The system was probably built to allow a train travelling at 160 to stop right at the next signal should the previous signal indicate "approach", so a train travelling faster than 160 might not have enough distance to brake before the "stop" signal. Here in Spain, lines with speeds between 160-200 use a specific "pre-approach at 160" aspect in the second signal before the "stop". This way, the driver finds "pre-approach" and slows down to 160, and then finds "approach" and brakes the train to a stop before the "stop" signal. Maybe the Greeks could have changed their trackside signalling system to include a "pre-approach", but at this point it was just wiser to implement the newer and safer ETCS cab signalling system in the high speed lines.
@@osasunaitor , After the crush in Angrois,the Spanish rail authority Adif installed three ASFA balises on 1.9 km of the approach to Santiago de Compostela to enforce speed limits of 160, 60 and 30 km/h. Was this done in this location only or it was done at entire Spanish high speed railroad network?
@@valstan3268 hey I don't know where you learnt this but nice info :) Yes, the whole ASFA system and even the railway rulebook were changed after that infamous accident. For any significant reduction in the speed limit (new concept called CSV - Cambio Significativo de Velocidad) it was required that a balise must be installed, to force the train to slow down to 30 (narrow gauge) or 60/100 (wide gauge). Also, the speed limit pre-announcement was introduced in high speed lines, indicating that the driver should slow down to 160 to prepare for a speed reduction ahead. However, this doesn't hide the fact that the accident happened due to a very deficient implementation of the signalling and train control systems, and still no single manager or politician has been held accountable for all that tragic loss. Typical of a corrupt country.
Now we sadly know that on most Greek railway lines the signaling system doesn't work and the circulation regime is still a kind of outdated telephonic block. This is UNACCEPTABLE. Αιώνια η μνήμη όσων πέθαναν
HI, I'm italian and I did a trip with the ETR470 frecciabianca in 2019 and I can say that the train is literally the same, the only things that change are the colors of the seat and in my opinion the Greek version is better than the Italian, but also in Italy is still a good and confortable train. 🙂
Another excellent video you made! I'm glad you came to my country! Some info: 1. Currently the Athenian Station is being rennovated by rebuilding 2 platforms (4 lines in total) and by connecting the station with the nearby metro station. 2. The infrastructure works that you see just after the departure from Athens' station have to do with the rennovation of the line (the capacity of the line is getting double to fit also the increasing number of suburban trains by constructing a tunnel which will enclose all the 4 new rails underneath, on the top there will be a park, zone for cycling etc). 3. Indeed the price is way too high for the average Greek, normal IC trains cost less and they need just 20 min to get to Thessaloniki+they serve more stations during the journer, not just Larissa). Few years ago there was an offer with 9, 19 euros you could get tickets to Thessaloniki, but now there is no such a thing, I don't know why... I hope Trenitalia will have a more reliable and dynamic customer policy. 4. Indeed the line with the tunnels inside the mountains is brand-new, only 3-4 years' old after many years of construction (the old line is still in use and it offers magnificent views of the mountains + it crosses historic bridges). All in all I hope you come back soon and try our astonishing train journeys such as Odontotos or the narrow gauge little "Steam Train" in Pelion mountain (it's not a steam train, it's a diesel one, but the engine has the shape of a steam train hahaha)
Well done Thibault, excellent boulot comme d'hab ;) some observations now. Greece has never exactly considered railways as a main priority, everything went to highways and airports (à la US more or less). But there's reason for hope, 4 billions are being invested in the network at the moment (new lines planned North and East, old lines in the South moving slowly towards being reactivated, new rolling stock etc). I totally agree with you, Athens' main station (Larissa Station as we locals know it) is a total dump. I mean you can find way better station buildings in Bulgaria Romania even some African countries, it's a complete shame. The neighborhood surrounding it also has quite a bad reputation as well. I don't get it, in Greece we're able to build breathtaking stuff like the Niarchos foundation or the upcoming Ellinikon park, but no effort whatsoever has been made into having a decent central train station, and works are moving at a snail's pace. However, getting rid of graffitis on the Siemens trainsets (as seen in your vid among others) is a big improvement. For over a decade they were completely covered in shitty graffiti, that's a big relief. So we're slowly moving on, but like many things in Greece, it's not happening very fast... About that construction near Athens central station, this is the Sepolia underpass being built. As you have seen, trains move very closely to the buildings in that neighborhood, so that will be a very big improvement, even more important than rebuilding the crappy central station. As for the Athens to Patras line, at the moment it only goes as far as Kiato (with electricity) and as far as Aigio (with Diesel only). There's a small chunk planned to be built so that Patras eventually gets train running up again (they used to with the old metric line). I mean, it's the 3rd biggest city in this country ! Back to our business, one final remark: trains in Greece usually had an awful reputation, for being slow, late, etc. So the big challenge is taking people off the buses (KTEL) and planes (espacially on the Athens to Thessaloniki route). It is getting better, for ex. the ETR is much better than anything before it, but there's still a lot to be done (more trains, and incentives to lower the ticket price). One thing that will work in train's favour: Thessaloniki's subway won't be linking the city to the airport before years, so that gives Hellenic Train some time to attract customers, but they need to act quickly. Because some airlines (especially Sky Express) are acting very aggressively in regards to prices and number of flights...
I also noticed the beautiful clean electric and diesel trainsets at the end. All I can say is that I'm very happy for your improvement; your trains had an awful reputation of being a bottomless pit of vandalism, much like in my country (Spain). But at least your new Italian managers are now taking care of this disgusting issue, unlike our lazy ass corrupt managers in Spain who don't give a sh*t, so I sincerely congratulate you. If I ever travel to Greece soon, taking the train will be a much more attractive option now that I know they are kept clean and nice.
Actually an amazing route in Greece for rail sightseeing is ododontos railway in kalavrita greece from what i have heard and then small train of pilio as more authentic older style train experience
The reason why it is so empty is because greeks dont usually think about taking the train. It had many ups and downs in the past and this new service with this particular train is just started so it will probably take some time for people to get in on it. Eventually with better regular service and upgraded lines it will be more popular
I rode this kind of etr when it was under cisalpino service, i love how they kept the old table layout. The fun thing is that if you are sorta tall, the second class is better than the first, the first class has thicker, more luxurious and side braced tables you will bang your knees on for the whole trip
The low frequency of the trains, as well as the limited speed of 160 km/h, are both related to the same reason why two days ago the two trains crashed. More than 80% of train signals in Greece are not functional, even on the newly built routes. Everything is done manually, the drivers get the allowance of proceeding via phone calls from the train disapatchers. Some signals are always red and are therefore simply ignored. Because of that, some sections/routes have a limit of 1 train per hour for example, and a max. top speed restriction. Even though 160 km/h is still way too fast for such operations tbh.
I took ETR470 many times at that time when it was put in service I remember very comfortable journeys with same seats but different fabrics (not leather) I remember the dining car very well that remained the same despite the years Congrats for your channel!
I'm Greek, I always liked travelling by train. When I was little, my mother used to get me to Edessa from Thessaloniki. 90km, 1.3hrs with car somehow 2.3hrs by train. But it was nice, air conditioning, books not so crowdy. During the return, it was packed though. It felt more like a bus than a train, I was expecting but I remember getting a tour of the driver's cabin and doing the choo-choo. Good times, hope they upgrade all the lines. I just checked the prices for a round ticket to athens from Thessaloniki, you'll be amazed that it's only 5-10 euros more to go with an aeroplane. Also, university students can't get a discount on 1st class, kinda sad.
Since Merker, Renzi and France divided Greece to invest and lend money on the skin of the Greeks more and more Italian convoys are in Greece. Practically the railway is driven by Italy, the ports by Germany and the airports by France with Germany
@@xXturbo86Xx well you are too prejudiced: those trains still run up and down the italian peninsula with no issues. Thanks to tilting can reduce travel times by 20% / 25% on difficult lines. Can your " garbage " do more or better?
The work in progress you saw after leaving Athens Central Station is actually the works related to making the Athens train corridor underground. Above rail tracks there will be parks and other open spaces.
Nice review and I hope you got a great time in Greece..Just a correction:The tilting is permantly deactivated and not used on the "Greek" 470's..In 5:50 is just the line superelevation on the curvy track profile between Agios Stefanos-Oinoi section ;)
I rode this train back in 2018 pre-refurbishment as a Frecciabianca service from Pisa to Rome. The most beautiful ride at sunset along the Mediterranean. Cool to see them get a new life!
Unfortunately, the ETCS was not installed on time and on March 1st 2023 there was a tragic accident (crime) on that exact trip counting at least 57 deaths (there are still people missing), mostly students going back to their studies. For one more time, Greece is killing its own children. RIP!
@@inana0707 Ναι το γνώριζα όταν έγραφα το σχόλιο, αλλα ειλικρινά δεν πίστευα πως έχει τόσο σημασία για μισή ώρα. Σημασία έχει να μην ξεχαστούν τα θύματα, να μην συγκαλυφθούν οι υπαίτιοι, να μην περάσει και αυτό έτσι!
Finally a video from my country. Thanks for sharing. Greek railway network still needs a large improvement in order to become competitive comparing to domestic flights between Thessaloniki and Athens.
My wife is from Greece, and we have traveled from Connecticut to Greece many times. In the past, Greek trains didn't have a very good reputation. Most Greeks tend to travel by bus.
@@alexverdigris9939 Exactly, buses or cars or planes are mostly used. On the other hand, trains used to be a total disaster in Greece, ranking at the bottom along with Bulgaria's very often. Mismanagement, delays, cancellations...it was absolutely not rosy. But things seem to go towards the right path as of now. What they need is to complete all major upgrades, add more trains, and that will make people dump cars buses or planes more often.
Just to know my friend, during your journey a train could easily be travelling through the same line as this train was, and no one would notice till they collide, cause there is no safety procedures like a gps.
Πολύ εξαιρετικό στυλ βίντεο blog, πολύ όμορφες εικόνες από τη φύση, μπράβο στην προσπάθεια αυτού που το πήρε, το επικροτώ, να είναι πάντα καλός ο δρόμος σου, σου εύχομαι καλή επιτυχία.🎥🎥🚄🚄👏👏👏👏
The rail infrastructure in Greece is a never ending story. The mountainous profile is the main problem which needs a lot of money to improve it. The section between Tithorea station 9:15 and Domokos was part of the oldest line that was built back in late 1800's early 1900's. The train had to climb two big mountain ridges over a slow single line. Now they have built that Kalidromo tunnel which bypass the slowest and oldest part of the rail and they have built the second part that you showed the view to Thessaly 13:12 . It's been a 10 year+ project. In the meantime highways in Greece nowdays are way ahead and people just lost faith in the train. Especially mid 2000's and onwards.
It's far far far better than what I experienced in 2016, when I went to Kalambaka from Athens. There was no dining car or any food service, no space for heavy luggage storage in 2nd class, and the toilet was horrible. However I found a little kids club, locked, with no one operated. The most shocking thing was that the train being late for hours in my return trip, which made me arrive in athens around 1am. The good changes in your video make me want to visit Greece again.
Excellent report, excellent train... I hope that in the coming period, Greece will put even more emphasis on the development of the railway and the expansion of the network 😉
1.The reason why the old platforms at Athens station don't have tracks in them its because there is a plan to upgrade the platforms 2. (04:55) the corridor outside Athens station is being upgraded to 4 tracks instead of 2 and being rooted underground instead of in the surface and it has nothing to do with the line from Athens to Patra
When I go to Greece in September, I will be riding this train so I could make my own judgement of it. I will also be riding the Athens subway system and its trams, too.
Very excellent video blog style, very beautiful nature pictures, bravo to the effort of the person who took it, I applaud it, may your path always be good, I wish you success.👏👏👏👏🎥🎥🎥🎥
now all 5 trains are in service. It's nice to see that all the refurbished liveries don't have any graffiti, either on intercity or suburban or regional.
I noticed too! What a beautiful sight, finally clean and spotless trains in Greece! A huge change from the disgusting state of vandalism they were enduring for so many years. I'm jealous of them now, I can only wish my country will also tackle the issue some day, but so far the problem has only got worse and worse for us.
Looks like my country has to change the seating pattern for the second class (we called it Kelas Bisnis or K2) intercity trains in order to increase passenger & more comfortable, greetings from Indonesia🇮🇩
Great review!! Not a fan of face to face seating. Many reasons for lack of passengers...high fares, too few trains, slow speed right now. The light color leather on the seats was a mistake. Thank you Thibault.😀😀💚💚
Really cool video, hope you had an excellent time in Greece! Just one thing, the tilting is disabled on the pendolinos here. It is particularly iffy on the ETR 470, and a decent portion of the line between Athens and Thessaloniki is built for 160 - 200 km/h operation, so it isn't that necessary anyway.
Worldwide, not just Greece, for trains to win the passenger market share battle with the airlines, the train has do the journey in around three hours or less, not four or more hours. The fare price doesn't matter, time of journey does.... Simply put, nearly four hours doesn't cut it....
8:13 You already gave yourself the answer why they can't run at 200km/h. As you said, they haven't implemented ETCS yet and what ETCS does is putting the signaling, which is traditionally on the track side, into the driver cabin on a screen. Because traditional signaling is only allowed up to speeds of 160km/h because at higher speeds the risk becomes to big that the driver misses a Singal or can't read it properly. This risk is eliminated by putting the signal on a screen in the drivers cabin. ETCS also does a lot of other stuff but this the one that matters here. So as long as they don't have ETCS (or a similar system) they can't run at 160km/h no matter the busynes of the line.
ETCS Level 1 is being installed in Greece - trackside signals are retained but the train has an onboard computer that monitors the speed and position of the train and applies the brakes if the driver is going too fast or beyond his permitted movement authority.
Like I said above, BR has run at 125 mph/200 km/h perfectly safely since the 1970s with no need for enormously expensive in-cab gadgetry. Germany and France as well I think run at 200 km/h on conventional lines with lineside signalling
Δυστυχώς είδαμε τι κατάληξη είχε όλο αυτό. Πλήρης ανεπάρκεια σε όλο της το μεγαλείο από πρακτικής άποψης και ανικανότητας με αποτέλεσμα να φύγουν τόσες ζωές. Λυπάμαι, δεν έχω λόγια πλέον. Unfortunately we saw how it all ended. Complete inadequacy in all its glory from a practical point of view and incompetence resulting in so many lives being lost. I'm sorry, I have no words anymore.
Serious work to build a national motorway system started in the 1990s, and accelerated after the mid-2000s. Today, the planned national motorway system is about 80-85% complete. Of the main ones: A1 was totally complete by 2016 I think. A2 was almost entirely complete by 2007. A6 and A7 were built in the 90s, if I remember correctly. A5, A8, and A25 were fast-built in the 2010s, and now they're planning to extend A5 further south. A3 is half ready and in use. Work on A90 has just started. Not sure why it surprised you, but glad you liked it. 🙂
I want you to know that the station building in Athens is a historic neoclassical preservation and cannot have the luxuries of the stations of other European capitals. Unfortunately....😔☹️ Inaugurated in 1904, the station was named after the city of Larissa, then the northernmost city of the Kingdom of Greece . And the adjacent Peloponnese Station (another historic neoclassical preservation building) inaugurated on 30 June 1884, was served by the metre-gauge Piraeus-Patras railway to the Peloponnese.
Έχω κάνει κάποια αρνητικά σχόλια για το τρένο αυτό βασιζόμενος σε φήμες των ελβετών, ίσως και να έκανα λάθος. Αυτό που με τρόμαζε απο την αρχή όμως είναι το μεγεθός του, εξαιρετικά μεγάλο για την Ελλάδα και δυστυχώς είχα δίκιο. Τι να το κάνεις όταν ταξιδεύει άδειο, θα είναι παθητικό και τότε θα ψαχνόμαστε πάλι.
It's amazing what Greece has achieved in 10 years. In 2012 there were fears Greece would leave the Eurozone and return to the Greek Drachma because of her financial crisis. Three bailout loans, foreign investment and austerity measures, and the country is now renewing much of it's rail infrastructure.
Actually, the economists do not agree among themselves on the effects of austerity and keeping the Euro. A significant number of them says the process of the Greek economic recovery would have been much easier and quicker without both the Euro and the austerity and these were on the contrary working against it. For example see publications by Janis Varoufakis available also in English.
@@petrsovicka In theory, yes. But politically, one can argue that the push from the EU/IMF forced badly-needed reforms. Otherwise, things would have been same old, same old, and nothing really would have changed. One thing everyone can agree on though is that the EU/IMF's forecast on how well the Greek economy would respond to shock therapy was way off. And the EU's delayed response to the crisis, shot Greek bond yields up, exacerbating the problem. Now, the EU has the ESM and knows how to respond to such a crisis, but with Greece being the guinea pig for that, they should have been more lenient. *Some* people in the EU think that all Brussels really wants is for the Greek legislature to truly reform the economy, and then [years from now] when it's not politically toxic, buy some Greek debt and write it off. Who knows.
@@petrsovicka Greece outside the EU is just another Balkan or even middle eastern country. Being so incredibly reliant on tourism and having very few domestic industries, Greece would slide back 50 years economically if it left Europe. Don't fall for economic nationalism demagoguery. It's always just marketing. Look at the Brits. They had a strong economy and even they are in the shitter now. Imagine that, but five times worse in Greece.
@@petrsovicka Well, in my opinion, you are right and wrong at the same time. Yes, in the short term, leaving the Euro would have made it easy for Greece to simply use high inflation to get out of the debt crisis and get a much faster economic growth. But this is bad in the long term because this also means that nobody trusts the Drachma as a long term currency, which heavily increases import prices and people would have used the Euro anyway due to its stability. Furthermore, staying in the euro and having to apply austerity measures finally forced the Greek government and economy to get competitive in the long run and modernize/digitize everything. So the long term outlook becomes much better by staying in the Euro.
I am happy that the ETR 470 still is in use. ☺️😌 Many memories of the Cisalpino from Zurich to Milan visiting relatives🥹🥹 I loved when it used to incline sideways when it was passing a curve. 🤪 In this way the CIS could travel a bit faster than conventional trains! If I remember correctly many passengers complained about this feature being uncomfortable… 😵💫😬 As former adult Lego fan and model builder the ETR470 in the Cisalpino colours was a must build and I still have it 😊😅 Thank you for this lovely video 🙏👍
Love your train videos. I really enjoy them. Please if you can. Show food offerings in snack/ dinning cars and prices of the items. Would like to see what other countries people enjoy eating. Also a big road food person. Love seeing food what people enjoying in other places
Indeed, I agree with you that it is a great pity that the Restaurant Car cannot offer a full meal service. This is a mark of a civilised railway facility and can be a major inducement for business people to abandon air travel. Great review of this service though; excellent as always. Thanks.
you cross the Patra line a 5:25...and she is built until Aigion ,the last section to Patras is under build. and the mount Parnasse is a wink to the Montparnasse station in Paris 😋
Nice to see these trains get a second life. But yes it seems a bit expensive, here in Italy i can go from Rome to Milan or Venice in a 300km/h high speed train for 30-40€ for trip.
Nice to see these notorious trains back in service, I guess they're not halfway as bad as the people in Switzerland thought... And I guess they're better built for a mediterrean country than for the Alps, I remember that the long hills on the Gotthard were pretty tough on the trains, as were the extremely curvy tracks in Switzerland, it was not uncommon for the tilting system to get overheated. But in the 14 years I've been living in Switzerland, these were the most comfortable trains to Italy, maybe apart from the occasional locomotive-hauled trains. The ETR 610 was a slight degrade in comfort, al be it a slight increase in reliability, the trains going now there are just pure crap... Noisy, rumbly, shaking and extreme bad seats and lighting, and have a lot more problems than the press wants you to believe! The interior still looks very similar to what it used to be when they were still servicing Cisalpino, the same seats, but different cloths. Also the other details look similar, maybe a new colour here and there. The tables are new, they are different from what they used to be. I'll be curious how long they'll last in Greece, if they at least go to 40 years of service.
It's weird that i didn't here the Loud Rattle too much common in the Pendolino's, (Especially the ETR485), and I love that this Train still screams Trenitalia, mainly by the Tables and the Passenger Information System. It's a Shame that it is limited to 200Km/h, because Originally the ETR460/470 (They are the same, but the 470 had the 15kV AC Pantograph for the Swiss Line) were able to go up to 250Km/h even under 3kV DC, maybe the tilting was disabled, great video as Always
You were running along the Aegean Sea on the last bit of the run to Thessaloniki. So sad about the terrible head-on collision just south of Larisa just a few days ago.
welcome to Greece ! hopefully you have enjoyed your time here and the new ICE service ! the most importand reason for the lack of passengers is the price 110 return while the normal IC costs around 70 euros. the works at the start of the video is for an undergroudning taking place. hope to see you again in Greece !
Do you think that this might change when ETCS is completely implemented and travel times on these "new" trains are reduced to nearly 3 hours? Then the difference to the IC is more than one hour.
@@derriegel5705 well the travel time after ETCS will be reduced to around 3h 15min as the trains will reach 200km/h, but that does not only apply to the ICE but also to the normal IC, so the IC travel time will be reduced too, aroun 3h 40mins
The train is a tad expensive for the average Greek who can take slower train with a cheaper fare and also buses and airplanes. Railroads had been neglected in Greece to the point that most of the network had been shut down and the rolling stock aged to the point of falling apart. Nobody here could take traveling by train seriously. Now things change. Lost of infrastructure upgrades are planned and new lines will be constructed. The Athens central station will be renovated in the next 2 years. Greece is just now started taking railroads seriously.
My hypothesis as to why these beauties are running empty. Much of the present generation of travellers were born in a `post train' era; they grew up addicted to car and plane travel in the period when the railways went in to decline. But that will slowly change as experience in central Europe and Britain is showing. Eventually people won't even think of driving intermediate distances and certainly will fly less, given the horrors and inefficiencies of airports. The best was to effect this change is exactly what Greek railways are doing. Rather than responding to demand, they are creating it by building high speed super comfortable and safe train networks. That;s what the Dutch showed would work. Build it and people will use it.
OTOH, intercity coach buses are very popular in Greece (and they've gotten very, very good, modern, and comfortable in recent years). Of course, this train is even better. So it's still a bit of a mystery, but hopefully that changes. One thing: it doesn't yet run at its intended 200 km/h, so it's not quite yet competitive time-wise. (Once it's running full-speed, Athens-Thessaloniki will be about 3h15m, instead of the 4 hours currently). The majority of the county's population lives along this high-speed line (Athens-Lamia-Larisa-Thessaloniki), so hopefully things fall into place once the trains start running faster.
@@joeb5080 It's also the fact that building railways everywhere in Greece is much more complex and expensive than for example the Netherlands, due to the mountainous landscape. Especially in the older days, and that's why the coach buses are popular.
there are some really good points as to why the train is running almost empty in these comments. i hope the train company somehow sees them and takes notes so they can fill up these nice trains, going forward
Hello! I am so glad you visited my vountry and i hope you had a splendid time. You are an experienced railfan and railway professional so you got all your answers right. Considering Greece has been plagued by mismanagement, corruption and financial trouble for so long it is a miracle we still have all this infrastructure. I do hope all will be better for our railways, however FS seem to heavily neglect regional lines. Truth about the ETR 470s is that only a light refurbishment seems to have been performed as they still face a lot of problems. Let's not forget they are almost 30 years old with millions of kilometres on their wheels. As a trainee train driver for GFR Hellas and a railfan i salute you. Maybe try classic locomotive - hauled trains next time.
I get the impression that FS is very keen to take what was one of the worst rail operators in Europe, it was once said back in the late 2000s that it would be more cost effective to give everyone a taxi to their destination and closed the whole rail network. Instead FS are trying and improve things, hence the building of new rail lines, new signalling system and bringing over these trains which while old, does the job very well.
@@philipbranco9568 Good evening. There is a MAJOR catch here. FS only owns a license to operate trains and these 5 ETR 470 units. All other rolling stock, infrastructure (stations, signalling, rail corridros and tracks) belongs to GAIAOSE and OSE respectively, companies both owned by the Greek state. As a railfan and passenger of more the 25 years i must say that things were much better in terms of itineraries, stock variety and maintainance in the 2000s...
@@Trainsforlife89 I get that most people profit most from regional trains but at the same time, from a systemic perspective, isn't it more important to first fix the main rail lines such as Athens-Thessaloniki and then start building regional trains which connect to that main railway?
Etr 470 did well in Italy. Now they are snubbed in Italy by other super fast convoys. Quanche Etr remained in Tyrrhenian as Freccia Bianca. But really nice to see them in Greece. If they can be useful to raise the level of Greece, so be it. Here in Italy we have Etr 500,700 etc
9:57 Four hours is the time between going from the train station to the airport in Athens, past security check, waiting time and flight to Thessaloniki. But this train make everyone comfortable in those four hours but Greeks do not get it.
There are very competitive airlines that challenge the trains with the same route. Every day, you can find tickets from 29 euros (one-way) and in some cases you can find it even cheaper. Furthermore, the duration of the flight is under an hour, which make it a very attractive mean of travel. It is faster than both the train and the bus line and in some cases you can find tickets a little bit more pricey than the buses. A major advantage for the trains, is comfort. Arguably the new trains are considerable better than the old ones. But still there is a gap from the other means. If Hellenic Trains lower the prices of the tickets or give incentives, along with upgrading the signalling systems in order to keep the speed high. It could attract a sizeable percentage of travelers and compete with the established airlines.
I recorded and edited the video back in June 2022 and the name of TrainOSE changed to Hellenic Train
Sorry for that folks :)
After your departure in Athens, the works you noticed concerns the same line, which will be soon underground from the Station to the external suburbs of Athens. Also, the Phase 2 of rebuilding the Athens Central Station is about to kick-off as well, so the "tunnel" amongst the old lines will disappear soon eventually. They are in discussion to privatize both Athens and Thessaloniki stations to private investors so that they might be renovated.
Regarding the "What an infra!" that's heritage from 2004 Olympics. :)
I'd like to see you review this : watch?v=-jgT39GFq6c
I’m not sure the Pendolino you rode had its tilting system in function…in Italy they don’t work anymore because Trenitalia decided they’re “too expensive” to maintain. So as long as this comes straight from my country, I expect they sold it without the tilting system.
Don't worry the Greeks never used TrainOSE (as a name) and no-one will call it Hellenic Train. We simply say OSE or train. I never understood their need to make it more complicated. First with TrainOSE and now with Hellenic Train.
I remember watching this video when it came out. I was surprized by the fact that the Greek railway network seemed in pretty good conditions.
Now I learn that almost the whole network is not even regulated with a proper telephonic block system, but with some sort of step-by-step radio comunication (like if it was a perpetual shunting movement). To see this video now, with the counciousness of what happened few days ago, feels pretty scary.
It was an unspeakable but sadly preventable tragedy.
It is just unimaginable this train on the left side track out of Larrisa.
THE FAULT IS OUR President BECAUSE HE WASTE ALL HIS MONEY TO NOTHING AND NOT TO OUR TRAINS
HOW THEY MAKE OUR ATHENS METRO THE BEST AND OUR HELLENIC TRAINS LIKE 900 YEAR TRAINS
@@stavrosprohw8548 Με αυτά που γίνονται σε αυτήν την χώρα, δεν θα μου έκανε εντύπωση αν συνέβαινε κάτι και στο μετρό...
Hello, I'm so glad that you made a trip report at my country. The reason that the people doesn't choose ETR, it's because the ticket is too expensive. The train also cannot reach 200 km/h due to the out of order signalling. My country has serious problems in railway network.😥😥
But getting better! I must try this route. It would be nice if there were seamless connections to other countries in the future. Everyone benefits!
Where did Greece get the money for a new train?
@@colors6692 basically the Greek railway company TrainOSE was bought by the Italian company FS group (the ones owning Trenitalia). Since those trains weren't used in Italy, they decided to use them in Greece after refurbishment. It was cheaper than buying new ones, probably.
Ρε φίλε τρέλα μας πουλάς 50 ευρώ για αθήνα-θεσσαλονίκη είναι ακριβό το εισιτήριο πόσο θέλεις να το βάλουν 5 ευρώ.. σχετικά με την Ευρώπη είναι απο τα πιο φθηνά εισιτήρια Μία χαρά είναι η τιμή.. μας τρελάνεις τώρα ολοκαίνουργιο τρένο το θέλεις και τζάμπα
@@dimitrismarkos2466 Και τα ΚΤΕΛ με την σούπερ άνεση τους φτηνά δε τα λες...
Looking at this I am reminded just how beautiful Greece is. You can see what an inspiration is whta to Greek culture in the Classical age.
Some great visuals of a great country we agree.
To be completed Athens to Patras, really look to be first class engineering achievements. 45 years ago, I went all round Greece with bicycle…..now everything is completely unrecognisable with excellent roads.
You went all around Greece with a bicycle?Thats an amazing thing to do well done!
As a Greek and frequent user of this trip, with this train, I have a few guesses on why they run empty. One is reliability. In the past and also with these new trains, there are delays quite often, breakdowns and punctuality issues. Second is the price. As I said, I used to use the train to travel from Larisa to Athens and back. First class was almost 60 with the previous train, now is 96 (round way). That is almost double. If you also take into account the fact that the duration is almost identical, then there´s no point choosing the ETR instead of the other. Finally, scheduling is also a problem. Someone who want to be early in the morning in Athens, traveling from Thessaloniki, has no other choice to take the plane. It´s (in my opinion) stupid to have a train arriving in Athens (althouh close to the center) at 11:30... no time for any kind of business especially when all public services and banks close at around 2 pm....
I used the Train in late May 2020 to go from Athens to Volos (via Larissa) and back. I took the new train at 7h22 from Athens to Larissa non stop. Very positive experience. The Larissa-Volos-Larissa segment was not bad, albeit older trains and several stops, it is a short distance so it didn't really matter. On the Larissa-Athens segment, I got on the "regular" intercity (not the express) .. Several stops on the way, only a small difference in the duration (15 minutes or so)...and it was fine. It cost me 39 euros to go and 34 to come back, total 73 euros. I was happy with my experience and plan to do it again soon.
Why not just take the bus?
The “cisalpino” was so notorious for breaking down that the Swiss railways always kept an extra train in the train station where trips through the elps begin and many Swiss instead of calling it “cisalpino” called it “schiss-alpino.” The Greek equivalent of schiss is something like kopros.
Ζεις αδερφέ ή ήσουν μέσα;
Glad you enjoyed our little italian boi! Actually, the seats are the same as before! I hope the etr470 will fix the reputation of the greek railways. It's a good train, let's see how it cuts travel time. Greetings from Italy! (:
I recently traveled with the normal IC service. It is not just 10 euros cheaper as you write in the video, it's a lot more. Round trip 2nd class with the ETR costs around 110 euros, while normal IC just 60 or 70 for 1st class, because it has round trip discount. The ETR doesn't. Travel time is just 20 min. longer. The result? My train was packed! Almost full!
Yeah that is a big issue trains like ICExpress are often overpriced and almost empty.
Μαλακίες έφεραν ως συνήθως μας αυτά που μας πούλησαν οι Ιταλοί τα τρένα που έχουν παρατήσει εδώ και 10 χρόνια και χαιρόμαστε από πάνω!! Αυτοί έχουν πλέον τρένα που πιάνουν 330 την ώρα σαν εκείνα της Γαλλίας, γιατί δεν μας δώσανε τα ίδια?? Λέω εγώ τώρα
The reason for the speed reduction until the installation of ETCS has to do with the Greek signalling system, it relies on lights mounted at the side of the tracks to relay if a train needs to slow down or stop. Other systems such as ETCS (European standard that isn't tied to one company with a monopoly on it), TVM (French, designed by Alstom), LZB (German, designed by Siemens), TBL2 (Belgian),... are based upon cab signalling (information is relayed through a screen in the train), instead of lights on the side of the track. ETCS (and the others) ensures that the train driver can see the signal (something that can't be guaranteed when you expect the train driver to look at light signals at 200 km/h or more) and slow down in time for the next signal if the train is told to slow down or stop.
This is regardless of capacity of the line, the previous train might have stopped due to a problem, an oncoming train might have crashed and blocked both tracks,...
And this information needs to be reliably relayed through a cab control system, with ETCS being the gold standard and the EU wishing to retire basically all other systems in the long run, especially on important and cross border routes to enable fairer competition between railway companies (freight and passenger)
Spanish train driver here, everything you said is correct. But the part where you claim that the trackside signals are not suitable for running faster than 160 km/h is not always true; here in my country we can use trackside signals for up to 200, and cab signalling for higher speeds.
My guess is that the reason why the Greek trackside signals don't allow for higher than 160 speeds is the distancing between signals and the length of blocks. The system was probably built to allow a train travelling at 160 to stop right at the next signal should the previous signal indicate "approach", so a train travelling faster than 160 might not have enough distance to brake before the "stop" signal.
Here in Spain, lines with speeds between 160-200 use a specific "pre-approach at 160" aspect in the second signal before the "stop". This way, the driver finds "pre-approach" and slows down to 160, and then finds "approach" and brakes the train to a stop before the "stop" signal. Maybe the Greeks could have changed their trackside signalling system to include a "pre-approach", but at this point it was just wiser to implement the newer and safer ETCS cab signalling system in the high speed lines.
@@osasunaitor , After the crush in Angrois,the Spanish rail authority Adif installed three ASFA balises on 1.9 km of the approach to Santiago de Compostela to enforce speed limits of 160, 60 and 30 km/h. Was this done in this location only or it was done at entire Spanish high speed railroad network?
@@valstan3268 hey I don't know where you learnt this but nice info :) Yes, the whole ASFA system and even the railway rulebook were changed after that infamous accident. For any significant reduction in the speed limit (new concept called CSV - Cambio Significativo de Velocidad) it was required that a balise must be installed, to force the train to slow down to 30 (narrow gauge) or 60/100 (wide gauge). Also, the speed limit pre-announcement was introduced in high speed lines, indicating that the driver should slow down to 160 to prepare for a speed reduction ahead.
However, this doesn't hide the fact that the accident happened due to a very deficient implementation of the signalling and train control systems, and still no single manager or politician has been held accountable for all that tragic loss. Typical of a corrupt country.
Now we sadly know that on most Greek railway lines the signaling system doesn't work and the circulation regime is still a kind of outdated telephonic block. This is UNACCEPTABLE. Αιώνια η μνήμη όσων πέθαναν
@@andreapradelli5964 ζωη σε λογου σας ... να ζησετε να τους θυμαστε....
HI, I'm italian and I did a trip with the ETR470 frecciabianca in 2019 and I can say that the train is literally the same, the only things that change are the colors of the seat and in my opinion the Greek version is better than the Italian, but also in Italy is still a good and confortable train. 🙂
Another excellent video you made! I'm glad you came to my country! Some info:
1. Currently the Athenian Station is being rennovated by rebuilding 2 platforms (4 lines in total) and by connecting the station with the nearby metro station.
2. The infrastructure works that you see just after the departure from Athens' station have to do with the rennovation of the line (the capacity of the line is getting double to fit also the increasing number of suburban trains by constructing a tunnel which will enclose all the 4 new rails underneath, on the top there will be a park, zone for cycling etc).
3. Indeed the price is way too high for the average Greek, normal IC trains cost less and they need just 20 min to get to Thessaloniki+they serve more stations during the journer, not just Larissa). Few years ago there was an offer with 9, 19 euros you could get tickets to Thessaloniki, but now there is no such a thing, I don't know why... I hope Trenitalia will have a more reliable and dynamic customer policy.
4. Indeed the line with the tunnels inside the mountains is brand-new, only 3-4 years' old after many years of construction (the old line is still in use and it offers magnificent views of the mountains + it crosses historic bridges).
All in all I hope you come back soon and try our astonishing train journeys such as Odontotos or the narrow gauge little "Steam Train" in Pelion mountain (it's not a steam train, it's a diesel one, but the engine has the shape of a steam train hahaha)
Well done Thibault, excellent boulot comme d'hab ;) some observations now. Greece has never exactly considered railways as a main priority, everything went to highways and airports (à la US more or less). But there's reason for hope, 4 billions are being invested in the network at the moment (new lines planned North and East, old lines in the South moving slowly towards being reactivated, new rolling stock etc). I totally agree with you, Athens' main station (Larissa Station as we locals know it) is a total dump. I mean you can find way better station buildings in Bulgaria Romania even some African countries, it's a complete shame. The neighborhood surrounding it also has quite a bad reputation as well. I don't get it, in Greece we're able to build breathtaking stuff like the Niarchos foundation or the upcoming Ellinikon park, but no effort whatsoever has been made into having a decent central train station, and works are moving at a snail's pace. However, getting rid of graffitis on the Siemens trainsets (as seen in your vid among others) is a big improvement. For over a decade they were completely covered in shitty graffiti, that's a big relief. So we're slowly moving on, but like many things in Greece, it's not happening very fast...
About that construction near Athens central station, this is the Sepolia underpass being built. As you have seen, trains move very closely to the buildings in that neighborhood, so that will be a very big improvement, even more important than rebuilding the crappy central station. As for the Athens to Patras line, at the moment it only goes as far as Kiato (with electricity) and as far as Aigio (with Diesel only). There's a small chunk planned to be built so that Patras eventually gets train running up again (they used to with the old metric line). I mean, it's the 3rd biggest city in this country !
Back to our business, one final remark: trains in Greece usually had an awful reputation, for being slow, late, etc. So the big challenge is taking people off the buses (KTEL) and planes (espacially on the Athens to Thessaloniki route). It is getting better, for ex. the ETR is much better than anything before it, but there's still a lot to be done (more trains, and incentives to lower the ticket price). One thing that will work in train's favour: Thessaloniki's subway won't be linking the city to the airport before years, so that gives Hellenic Train some time to attract customers, but they need to act quickly. Because some airlines (especially Sky Express) are acting very aggressively in regards to prices and number of flights...
I also noticed the beautiful clean electric and diesel trainsets at the end. All I can say is that I'm very happy for your improvement; your trains had an awful reputation of being a bottomless pit of vandalism, much like in my country (Spain). But at least your new Italian managers are now taking care of this disgusting issue, unlike our lazy ass corrupt managers in Spain who don't give a sh*t, so I sincerely congratulate you. If I ever travel to Greece soon, taking the train will be a much more attractive option now that I know they are kept clean and nice.
Ok, the Greek landscapes are beautiful, very nice train ride, I hope to make this trip in the future just for the sight seeing 😀
The bus service is also good for those many places not reached by rail
Actually an amazing route in Greece for rail sightseeing is ododontos railway in kalavrita greece from what i have heard and then small train of pilio as more authentic older style train experience
The reason why it is so empty is because greeks dont usually think about taking the train. It had many ups and downs in the past and this new service with this particular train is just started so it will probably take some time for people to get in on it. Eventually with better regular service and upgraded lines it will be more popular
I rode this kind of etr when it was under cisalpino service, i love how they kept the old table layout. The fun thing is that if you are sorta tall, the second class is better than the first, the first class has thicker, more luxurious and side braced tables you will bang your knees on for the whole trip
A few days ago it was announced that the Athenian Station will be completely renovated
Thank god. Finally
I was on an SBB ETR 470 in 2012. It was a wonderful first-class ride on the Italy-Switzerland border route. I took it from Bern to Milan.
9:10 lucky you were on the correct side... R.I.P. to all the victims of 1/3/2023 accident
28 Φεβρουαρίου έγινε αργά το βράδυ...γιατί λέτε όλοι 1 Μαρτίου?
There aren't many things to be impressed about this rail network, as modern and new as it seems ... In fact, you are very lucky to be alive today!!
How can you not take a train from Athens to Patras.
Greece is far behind in rail travel
The low frequency of the trains, as well as the limited speed of 160 km/h, are both related to the same reason why two days ago the two trains crashed.
More than 80% of train signals in Greece are not functional, even on the newly built routes. Everything is done manually, the drivers get the allowance of proceeding via phone calls from the train disapatchers. Some signals are always red and are therefore simply ignored. Because of that, some sections/routes have a limit of 1 train per hour for example, and a max. top speed restriction. Even though 160 km/h is still way too fast for such operations tbh.
I took ETR470 many times at that time when it was put in service
I remember very comfortable journeys with same seats but different fabrics (not leather)
I remember the dining car very well that remained the same despite the years
Congrats for your channel!
New interior is so good.
As italian, greeks deserve 470 and new trains.
I'm Greek, I always liked travelling by train. When I was little, my mother used to get me to Edessa from Thessaloniki. 90km, 1.3hrs with car somehow 2.3hrs by train. But it was nice, air conditioning, books not so crowdy. During the return, it was packed though. It felt more like a bus than a train, I was expecting but I remember getting a tour of the driver's cabin and doing the choo-choo. Good times, hope they upgrade all the lines. I just checked the prices for a round ticket to athens from Thessaloniki, you'll be amazed that it's only 5-10 euros more to go with an aeroplane. Also, university students can't get a discount on 1st class, kinda sad.
Yeah NEW trains, not this garbage that not even the Italian company who owns them, used them in Italy successfully...
@@xXturbo86Xx this train works very good
Since Merker, Renzi and France divided Greece to invest and lend money on the skin of the Greeks more and more Italian convoys are in Greece. Practically the railway is driven by Italy, the ports by Germany and the airports by France with Germany
@@xXturbo86Xx well you are too prejudiced: those trains still run up and down the italian peninsula with no issues. Thanks to tilting can reduce travel times by 20% / 25% on difficult lines. Can your " garbage " do more or better?
Wonderful video. I always look forward to your new reports each week. Thanks for taking us along!
The work in progress you saw after leaving Athens Central Station is actually the works related to making the Athens train corridor underground. Above rail tracks there will be parks and other open spaces.
Nice review and I hope you got a great time in Greece..Just a correction:The tilting is permantly deactivated and not used on the "Greek" 470's..In 5:50 is just the line superelevation on the curvy track profile between Agios Stefanos-Oinoi section ;)
Thanks for the info. Are there plans to enable tilting? Is it needed for 200Km/h speeds?
@@chpappis No the tilting equipment has been removed...Its not needed in Athens-Thessaloniki line anyway..
Such wonderful beautiful trains these are. And the scenery is so breathtaking.
I rode this train back in 2018 pre-refurbishment as a Frecciabianca service from Pisa to Rome. The most beautiful ride at sunset along the Mediterranean. Cool to see them get a new life!
Aged well like a fine wine.
Thanks for the video! I was waiting for that for about a month.
15:15 that red train at the back. It's the best train in history of Greek railways.
Unfortunately, the ETCS was not installed on time and on March 1st 2023 there was a tragic accident (crime) on that exact trip counting at least 57 deaths (there are still people missing), mostly students going back to their studies. For one more time, Greece is killing its own children. RIP!
Δεν έγινε 1 Μαρτίου αλλά 28 Φεβρουαρίου αργά το βράδυ! Βλέπω παντού το ίδιο λάθος και δεν το καταλαβαίνω
@@inana0707 Ναι το γνώριζα όταν έγραφα το σχόλιο, αλλα ειλικρινά δεν πίστευα πως έχει τόσο σημασία για μισή ώρα. Σημασία έχει να μην ξεχαστούν τα θύματα, να μην συγκαλυφθούν οι υπαίτιοι, να μην περάσει και αυτό έτσι!
@@quantumnick βρε ναι αλλά έχει μεγάλη σημασία
Finally a video from my country. Thanks for sharing. Greek railway network still needs a large improvement in order to become competitive comparing to domestic flights between Thessaloniki and Athens.
This looks like a great train! Thanks for another awesome video.
Nice train
love Greece from Italy💪👏😎💖
Love to Italy right back 😀
Enjoyable video, thanks. It's great to see Greece spending money on its rail infrastructure. Hope it pays off.
My wife is from Greece, and we have traveled from Connecticut to Greece many times. In the past, Greek trains didn't have a very good reputation. Most Greeks tend to travel by bus.
That's true; Greece doesn't have a train culture and they'd rather use roads (a bit like in Murrica).
@@alexverdigris9939 Exactly, buses or cars or planes are mostly used. On the other hand, trains used to be a total disaster in Greece, ranking at the bottom along with Bulgaria's very often. Mismanagement, delays, cancellations...it was absolutely not rosy. But things seem to go towards the right path as of now. What they need is to complete all major upgrades, add more trains, and that will make people dump cars buses or planes more often.
And the busses are not great.
I was there in June, Kefalonia - Athens with KTEL, Jesus Christ leg room was horrendous !
@@RovexHD Why would they bother, KTEL is a monopoly as far as buses are concerned
Just to know my friend, during your journey a train could easily be travelling through the same line as this train was, and no one would notice till they collide, cause there is no safety procedures like a gps.
Πολύ εξαιρετικό στυλ βίντεο blog, πολύ όμορφες εικόνες από τη φύση, μπράβο στην προσπάθεια αυτού που το πήρε, το επικροτώ, να είναι πάντα καλός ο δρόμος σου, σου εύχομαι καλή επιτυχία.🎥🎥🚄🚄👏👏👏👏
The rail infrastructure in Greece is a never ending story. The mountainous profile is the main problem which needs a lot of money to improve it. The section between Tithorea station 9:15 and Domokos was part of the oldest line that was built back in late 1800's early 1900's. The train had to climb two big mountain ridges over a slow single line. Now they have built that Kalidromo tunnel which bypass the slowest and oldest part of the rail and they have built the second part that you showed the view to Thessaly 13:12 . It's been a 10 year+ project. In the meantime highways in Greece nowdays are way ahead and people just lost faith in the train. Especially mid 2000's and onwards.
It's far far far better than what I experienced in 2016, when I went to Kalambaka from Athens. There was no dining car or any food service, no space for heavy luggage storage in 2nd class, and the toilet was horrible. However I found a little kids club, locked, with no one operated. The most shocking thing was that the train being late for hours in my return trip, which made me arrive in athens around 1am. The good changes in your video make me want to visit Greece again.
Greek railways have thankfully drastically improved since 2016. Even the normal IC trains are of top notch quality!
Excellent report, excellent train... I hope that in the coming period, Greece will put even more emphasis on the development of the railway and the expansion of the network 😉
1.The reason why the old platforms at Athens station don't have tracks in them its because there is a plan to upgrade the platforms
2. (04:55) the corridor outside Athens station is being upgraded to 4 tracks instead of 2 and being rooted underground instead of in the surface and it has nothing to do with the line from Athens to Patra
Great trip report
Some great visuals there Simply Railway. Well done.
When I go to Greece in September, I will be riding this train so I could make my own judgement of it. I will also be riding the Athens subway system and its trams, too.
Wow you survived the trip. Too bad so many young people did not.
Very excellent video blog style, very beautiful nature pictures, bravo to the effort of the person who took it, I applaud it, may your path always be good, I wish you success.👏👏👏👏🎥🎥🎥🎥
now all 5 trains are in service. It's nice to see that all the refurbished liveries don't have any graffiti, either on intercity or suburban or regional.
I noticed too! What a beautiful sight, finally clean and spotless trains in Greece! A huge change from the disgusting state of vandalism they were enduring for so many years. I'm jealous of them now, I can only wish my country will also tackle the issue some day, but so far the problem has only got worse and worse for us.
Looks like my country has to change the seating pattern for the second class (we called it Kelas Bisnis or K2) intercity trains in order to increase passenger & more comfortable, greetings from Indonesia🇮🇩
Finally a decent TH-cam trip report about Greece's trains!
Great review!! Not a fan of face to face seating. Many reasons for lack of passengers...high fares, too few trains, slow speed right now.
The light color leather on the seats was a mistake.
Thank you Thibault.😀😀💚💚
Excellent vid as always!
Really cool video, hope you had an excellent time in Greece!
Just one thing, the tilting is disabled on the pendolinos here. It is particularly iffy on the ETR 470, and a decent portion of the line between Athens and Thessaloniki is built for 160 - 200 km/h operation, so it isn't that necessary anyway.
Worldwide, not just Greece, for trains to win the passenger market share battle with the airlines, the train has do the journey in around three hours or less, not four or more hours. The fare price doesn't matter, time of journey does.... Simply put, nearly four hours doesn't cut it....
Exactly. From Athens to Thessaloniki it's just 30 minutes by plane, and with way more flights/day
Wow, impressive! Nice to know that even Greece has better trains than Amtrak... Thanks Thibault!
Greece has better public transportation than the US in general.
I like it when you show the route maps. I LOVE it when, or if, you could show the route maps with Maximum Track Speed!
Excellent video! I'm so glad I filmed this train on its maiden journey
8:13 You already gave yourself the answer why they can't run at 200km/h. As you said, they haven't implemented ETCS yet and what ETCS does is putting the signaling, which is traditionally on the track side, into the driver cabin on a screen. Because traditional signaling is only allowed up to speeds of 160km/h because at higher speeds the risk becomes to big that the driver misses a Singal or can't read it properly. This risk is eliminated by putting the signal on a screen in the drivers cabin. ETCS also does a lot of other stuff but this the one that matters here.
So as long as they don't have ETCS (or a similar system) they can't run at 160km/h no matter the busynes of the line.
ETCS Level 1 is being installed in Greece - trackside signals are retained but the train has an onboard computer that monitors the speed and position of the train and applies the brakes if the driver is going too fast or beyond his permitted movement authority.
Like I said above, BR has run at 125 mph/200 km/h perfectly safely since the 1970s with no need for enormously expensive in-cab gadgetry. Germany and France as well I think run at 200 km/h on conventional lines with lineside signalling
Ήταν ένα πολύ ωραίο βίντεο, χάρη στην προσπάθεια του δημιουργού Grece 🚄🚄🚄🚄🚄🚄🚄🚄👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Δυστυχώς είδαμε τι κατάληξη είχε όλο αυτό. Πλήρης ανεπάρκεια σε όλο της το μεγαλείο από πρακτικής άποψης και ανικανότητας με αποτέλεσμα να φύγουν τόσες ζωές. Λυπάμαι, δεν έχω λόγια πλέον. Unfortunately we saw how it all ended. Complete inadequacy in all its glory from a practical point of view and incompetence resulting in so many lives being lost. I'm sorry, I have no words anymore.
Τα παλιά ήταν εκείνα.
@@flowerid5141 Παλιά, καινούρια η ζημιά έχει γίνει.
Serious work to build a national motorway system started in the 1990s, and accelerated after the mid-2000s. Today, the planned national motorway system is about 80-85% complete. Of the main ones: A1 was totally complete by 2016 I think. A2 was almost entirely complete by 2007. A6 and A7 were built in the 90s, if I remember correctly. A5, A8, and A25 were fast-built in the 2010s, and now they're planning to extend A5 further south. A3 is half ready and in use. Work on A90 has just started. Not sure why it surprised you, but glad you liked it. 🙂
8:37 i thought you meant Tour Montparansse 😆
Great to see those old Cisalpino trains have a new life in Greece
Amazing trip
I want you to know that the station building in Athens is a historic neoclassical preservation and cannot have the luxuries of the stations of other European capitals. Unfortunately....😔☹️ Inaugurated in 1904, the station was named after the city of Larissa, then the northernmost city of the Kingdom of Greece . And the adjacent Peloponnese Station (another historic neoclassical preservation building) inaugurated on 30 June 1884, was served by the metre-gauge Piraeus-Patras railway to the Peloponnese.
I took the train from Athens to Thessaloniki, 20 years ago. What I saw is a huge upgrade.
Έχω κάνει κάποια αρνητικά σχόλια για το τρένο αυτό βασιζόμενος σε φήμες των ελβετών, ίσως και να έκανα λάθος. Αυτό που με τρόμαζε απο την αρχή όμως είναι το μεγεθός του, εξαιρετικά μεγάλο για την Ελλάδα και δυστυχώς είχα δίκιο. Τι να το κάνεις όταν ταξιδεύει άδειο, θα είναι παθητικό και τότε θα ψαχνόμαστε πάλι.
It's amazing what Greece has achieved in 10 years. In 2012 there were fears Greece would leave the Eurozone and return to the Greek Drachma because of her financial crisis. Three bailout loans, foreign investment and austerity measures, and the country is now renewing much of it's rail infrastructure.
Actually, the economists do not agree among themselves on the effects of austerity and keeping the Euro. A significant number of them says the process of the Greek economic recovery would have been much easier and quicker without both the Euro and the austerity and these were on the contrary working against it. For example see publications by Janis Varoufakis available also in English.
@@petrsovicka In theory, yes. But politically, one can argue that the push from the EU/IMF forced badly-needed reforms. Otherwise, things would have been same old, same old, and nothing really would have changed.
One thing everyone can agree on though is that the EU/IMF's forecast on how well the Greek economy would respond to shock therapy was way off. And the EU's delayed response to the crisis, shot Greek bond yields up, exacerbating the problem. Now, the EU has the ESM and knows how to respond to such a crisis, but with Greece being the guinea pig for that, they should have been more lenient.
*Some* people in the EU think that all Brussels really wants is for the Greek legislature to truly reform the economy, and then [years from now] when it's not politically toxic, buy some Greek debt and write it off. Who knows.
@@petrsovicka Greece outside the EU is just another Balkan or even middle eastern country. Being so incredibly reliant on tourism and having very few domestic industries, Greece would slide back 50 years economically if it left Europe.
Don't fall for economic nationalism demagoguery. It's always just marketing. Look at the Brits. They had a strong economy and even they are in the shitter now. Imagine that, but five times worse in Greece.
@@TohaBgood2 Leaving the Eurozone does not mean leaving the European Union.
@@petrsovicka Well, in my opinion, you are right and wrong at the same time. Yes, in the short term, leaving the Euro would have made it easy for Greece to simply use high inflation to get out of the debt crisis and get a much faster economic growth. But this is bad in the long term because this also means that nobody trusts the Drachma as a long term currency, which heavily increases import prices and people would have used the Euro anyway due to its stability. Furthermore, staying in the euro and having to apply austerity measures finally forced the Greek government and economy to get competitive in the long run and modernize/digitize everything. So the long term outlook becomes much better by staying in the Euro.
it's incredible how improved infrastructure in greece the last 25 years...!
Mostly highways actually. Railway is underdeveloped and it doesn't seem that Hellenic Train will bring better trains or improve it's service.
I am happy that the ETR 470 still is in use. ☺️😌
Many memories of the Cisalpino from Zurich to Milan visiting relatives🥹🥹
I loved when it used to incline sideways when it was passing a curve. 🤪 In this way the CIS could travel a bit faster than conventional trains! If I remember correctly many passengers complained about this feature being uncomfortable… 😵💫😬
As former adult Lego fan and model builder the ETR470 in the Cisalpino colours was a must build and I still have it 😊😅
Thank you for this lovely video 🙏👍
Love your train videos. I really enjoy them. Please if you can. Show food offerings in snack/ dinning cars and prices of the items. Would like to see what other countries people enjoy eating. Also a big road food person. Love seeing food what people enjoying in other places
Indeed, I agree with you that it is a great pity that the Restaurant Car cannot offer a full meal service. This is a mark of a civilised railway facility and can be a major inducement for business people to abandon air travel. Great review of this service though; excellent as always. Thanks.
you cross the Patra line a 5:25...and she is built until Aigion ,the last section to Patras is under build.
and the mount Parnasse is a wink to the Montparnasse station in Paris 😋
As always you can be relied upon to give a full and fair appraisal. Great vid.
Nice to see these trains get a second life. But yes it seems a bit expensive, here in Italy i can go from Rome to Milan or Venice in a 300km/h high speed train for 30-40€ for trip.
Lindo trem 🚆 simply gostei
Nice to see these notorious trains back in service, I guess they're not halfway as bad as the people in Switzerland thought... And I guess they're better built for a mediterrean country than for the Alps, I remember that the long hills on the Gotthard were pretty tough on the trains, as were the extremely curvy tracks in Switzerland, it was not uncommon for the tilting system to get overheated. But in the 14 years I've been living in Switzerland, these were the most comfortable trains to Italy, maybe apart from the occasional locomotive-hauled trains. The ETR 610 was a slight degrade in comfort, al be it a slight increase in reliability, the trains going now there are just pure crap... Noisy, rumbly, shaking and extreme bad seats and lighting, and have a lot more problems than the press wants you to believe!
The interior still looks very similar to what it used to be when they were still servicing Cisalpino, the same seats, but different cloths. Also the other details look similar, maybe a new colour here and there. The tables are new, they are different from what they used to be. I'll be curious how long they'll last in Greece, if they at least go to 40 years of service.
Τα τρένα είναι οκ,οι άνθρωποι είναι χάλια.
Interesting to see!
It's weird that i didn't here the Loud Rattle too much common in the Pendolino's, (Especially the ETR485), and I love that this Train still screams Trenitalia, mainly by the Tables and the Passenger Information System. It's a Shame that it is limited to 200Km/h, because Originally the ETR460/470 (They are the same, but the 470 had the 15kV AC Pantograph for the Swiss Line) were able to go up to 250Km/h even under 3kV DC, maybe the tilting was disabled, great video as Always
You were running along the Aegean Sea on the last bit of the run to Thessaloniki.
So sad about the terrible head-on collision just south of Larisa just a few days ago.
welcome to Greece ! hopefully you have enjoyed your time here and the new ICE service ! the most importand reason for the lack of passengers is the price 110 return while the normal IC costs around 70 euros. the works at the start of the video is for an undergroudning taking place. hope to see you again in Greece !
Do you think that this might change when ETCS is completely implemented and travel times on these "new" trains are reduced to nearly 3 hours? Then the difference to the IC is more than one hour.
@@derriegel5705 well the travel time after ETCS will be reduced to around 3h 15min as the trains will reach 200km/h, but that does not only apply to the ICE but also to the normal IC, so the IC travel time will be reduced too, aroun 3h 40mins
Nice Video! Excelent! 👍Thumbs Up!👍
Great trip.
Happy to see it refurbished and back in business. Good train, me like it
The train is a tad expensive for the average Greek who can take slower train with a cheaper fare and also buses and airplanes. Railroads had been neglected in Greece to the point that most of the network had been shut down and the rolling stock aged to the point of falling apart. Nobody here could take traveling by train seriously.
Now things change. Lost of infrastructure upgrades are planned and new lines will be constructed.
The Athens central station will be renovated in the next 2 years.
Greece is just now started taking railroads seriously.
A surprising and fascinating trip through Greece. Thanks once again for an excellent video ❤
Wow! Another thumb up for Simly RW. Saint Paul Made it on foot!👍🏾
14:20 Mount Olympus! Simply breathtaking :)
Amazing.
1:49 Okay it reminds me of an walkway over an old platforms in Sacramento, CA
My hypothesis as to why these beauties are running empty. Much of the present generation of travellers were born in a `post train' era; they grew up addicted to car and plane travel in the period when the railways went in to decline. But that will slowly change as experience in central Europe and Britain is showing. Eventually people won't even think of driving intermediate distances and certainly will fly less, given the horrors and inefficiencies of airports. The best was to effect this change is exactly what Greek railways are doing. Rather than responding to demand, they are creating it by building high speed super comfortable and safe train networks. That;s what the Dutch showed would work. Build it and people will use it.
OTOH, intercity coach buses are very popular in Greece (and they've gotten very, very good, modern, and comfortable in recent years). Of course, this train is even better. So it's still a bit of a mystery, but hopefully that changes. One thing: it doesn't yet run at its intended 200 km/h, so it's not quite yet competitive time-wise. (Once it's running full-speed, Athens-Thessaloniki will be about 3h15m, instead of the 4 hours currently). The majority of the county's population lives along this high-speed line (Athens-Lamia-Larisa-Thessaloniki), so hopefully things fall into place once the trains start running faster.
@@joeb5080 It's also the fact that building railways everywhere in Greece is much more complex and expensive than for example the Netherlands, due to the mountainous landscape. Especially in the older days, and that's why the coach buses are popular.
there are some really good points as to why the train is running almost empty in these comments. i hope the train company somehow sees them and takes notes so they can fill up these nice trains, going forward
great video, do not forget that the Pendolino tilting trains were invented by the Fiat train division in the late 70s....
I'm from Greece I've never been to It but I like the desiros we have!
Hello! I am so glad you visited my vountry and i hope you had a splendid time. You are an experienced railfan and railway professional so you got all your answers right. Considering Greece has been plagued by mismanagement, corruption and financial trouble for so long it is a miracle we still have all this infrastructure. I do hope all will be better for our railways, however FS seem to heavily neglect regional lines. Truth about the ETR 470s is that only a light refurbishment seems to have been performed as they still face a lot of problems. Let's not forget they are almost 30 years old with millions of kilometres on their wheels. As a trainee train driver for GFR Hellas and a railfan i salute you. Maybe try classic locomotive - hauled trains next time.
I get the impression that FS is very keen to take what was one of the worst rail operators in Europe, it was once said back in the late 2000s that it would be more cost effective to give everyone a taxi to their destination and closed the whole rail network. Instead FS are trying and improve things, hence the building of new rail lines, new signalling system and bringing over these trains which while old, does the job very well.
@@philipbranco9568 Good evening. There is a MAJOR catch here. FS only owns a license to operate trains and these 5 ETR 470 units. All other rolling stock, infrastructure (stations, signalling, rail corridros and tracks) belongs to GAIAOSE and OSE respectively, companies both owned by the Greek state. As a railfan and passenger of more the 25 years i must say that things were much better in terms of itineraries, stock variety and maintainance in the 2000s...
@@Trainsforlife89 I get that most people profit most from regional trains but at the same time, from a systemic perspective, isn't it more important to first fix the main rail lines such as Athens-Thessaloniki and then start building regional trains which connect to that main railway?
Etr 470 did well in Italy. Now they are snubbed in Italy by other super fast convoys. Quanche Etr remained in Tyrrhenian as Freccia Bianca. But really nice to see them in Greece. If they can be useful to raise the level of Greece, so be it. Here in Italy we have Etr 500,700 etc
Amazing
I love your videos! If you happen to be in Italy, try a Frecciabianca, because Trenitalia wants to cancel them, so they won't be around for long
top video!!!!!!!!!! very good!!!
9:57 Four hours is the time between going from the train station to the airport in Athens, past security check, waiting time and flight to Thessaloniki. But this train make everyone comfortable in those four hours but Greeks do not get it.
There are very competitive airlines that challenge the trains with the same route. Every day, you can find tickets from 29 euros (one-way) and in some cases you can find it even cheaper. Furthermore, the duration of the flight is under an hour, which make it a very attractive mean of travel. It is faster than both the train and the bus line and in some cases you can find tickets a little bit more pricey than the buses.
A major advantage for the trains, is comfort. Arguably the new trains are considerable better than the old ones. But still there is a gap from the other means. If Hellenic Trains lower the prices of the tickets or give incentives, along with upgrading the signalling systems in order to keep the speed high. It could attract a sizeable percentage of travelers and compete with the established airlines.