Is Bill Evans The Larry Bird of Jazz?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- Ok we're asking the big questions here. Bill Evans. Is he the GOAT or is it all just hype? In this episode, Peter and Adam get into these questions and more.
Is there room for these topics in the jazz climate today?
show links:
Ethan Iverson interview with Nicholas Payton: ethaniverson.c...
Bill Evans - Live at the Bohemia, 1958: ethaniverson.c...
Peep the episode on Brad Mehldau ↓
• Ahh, To Be Brad Mehlda...
❓Have a question for us? Leave us a voicemail (SpeakPipe): link.youllhear...
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Bill Evan’s is my boyyyyy, reading a book, dinner party, falling asleep when I’m stressed out it’s always bill
Bill Evans rocks. Portrait in Jazz was the first jazz CD I bought.
it's a masterpiece IMO
Absolutely, I think this video is not doing justice to Bill Evans - in the end of the day there’s a reason why Miles chose Bill and there’s a reason why Bill’s voicings are so famous “the Bill Evans Voicings”. The problem with both this and the Mehldau video is that they both lack musical analysis, they are merely a cafeteria discussion, which is fine but it would be great to have a layer of depth in these videos. He is definitely in the top3 and not only in my heart.
What so many are missing--most everyone, is that Bill's rhythmic invention was his most personal and important musical contribution. Everything else he did (and did with extraordinary understanding and beauty) can be found somewhere in music that preceded him.. The brilliant drummer and also extraordinarily experienced musician, Larry Bunker, said Bill was the most rhythmically inventive musician he'd ever heard. If you doubt this hypothesis, start transcribing Bill's music and its validity will become quickly apparent.
When I was with Art Blakey in 1989-1990, someone asked Art why he had so many white guys in the band (there were four of us). Art’s answer was “I’ll look into it” 🤣🤣🤣
Bill Evans had a particular aesthetic. His harmonies are sparse, yet deeply colorful. His playing is reserved and intentional. It speaks to me, I think because it vibes with my personality, which tends to be more introspective and reserved. Bolder people probably vibe more with bolder players. People with more anger or sadness in their lives probably vibe more with artists who express those emotions. Bill's aesthetic happens to vibe with me, but that doesn't make him better than someone else. It just makes him great for me!
I find him to be profoundly sad or at least melancholy especially after reading about his life.
Well said!
Not sure about his harmonies being "sparse". If you mean he did not play a lot of super thick chords like say McCoy Tyner or Oscar Peterson, then yeah. But Evans' chords were so colorful and often airy in his use of reharmonizations, substitutions, internal movement, and perfect voicings -- the combination of those qualities were unique to Evans and were later adopted by other jazz pianists.
@@jofinsky8400 He didn't say "sparse". He said "sparse, yet deeply colorful.". So you agree with him 🙂
@@afrodiameter He didn't say "sparse", he said "sparse". So, no I don't necessarily agree.
I've always loved all the trio stuff Bill did, and just recently found the Interplay record and it blew my mind. I'd never heard Bill in that setting and that album just transports me to NY city vibes back in the day. I'd like to see you guys discuss more on the details of what Bill's playing contributed specifically to jazz piano theory/style/technique. The Larry Bird question just draws it into discussing race and cultural gate keeper kind of stuff. What I appreciate about Bill's playing the most are that his influences from Chopin, Debussy, Classical music are quite clear, he also more than most pianists I felt tried to pay respect to the original song writer and the beauty of the standard itself. So much of jazz became over the years about who can abstract the song the most and out do each other on improvisation on who can reharmonize in crazy ways, or play with the melody so much that it is hardly even recognizable as the standard anymore. It often was not about connecting emotionally. I loved how Bill clearly kept the introduction of the song writer's melody, but brought in the most beautiful lushness of harmonic extensions and tenderness and just pure brilliance.
you guys killed this. ambitious topic and nailed it!
Evans did play with Philly Joe Jones both in the late 1950’s and also in the end of his life. DeJohnette played with Evans before going to play with Miles. Evans also played with Alan Dawson.
The pond is too big to have a best. That's a good thing, all the more music for us. I'll say one thing for Bill Evans though, he's so unique, he has such his own sound, that he stands out as a titan. Of course his playing and technique are amazing as a bonus.
Bill evans made interesting and beautiful music.........
Creole people played a very important role in creating jazz. White people also helped create the music. Bix Beiderbecker, Eddie Lang (credited as the father of jazz guitar), and many others were important innovators during the beginning of jazz. It's not black American music, it's AMERICAN music!
Good point about how visual appearance shapes what people "hear". The singer in a band was in in my teens 30 years used to compare me to John McLaughlin, although I sounded nothing like him. I guess I kinda looked like him and she "heard" that.
I don´t know what I'm going to get out of this episode but I know I will love it, even if you throw some shade on "my boy" Bill.
I'm really glad you two exist and are doing this podcast! thank you always.
this was a great episode and you both are great sensible people
thanks!
🙏🏼@@PaulieStamets
So funny hearing one of them go on for several minutes trying to explain a concept for which there's a simple word that's super well-understood for anyone who's involved in diversity conversations. And the other guy simply concluded "this is why representation matters". Hope this reaches more people to whom this concept is new.
Bill Evans is the Glenn Gould of jazz
Interesting !?,
However, I see
Glenn Gould as the James Dean of European Classical.
Check what Barenboim
said about Gould~Bach
Y'all should most definitely talk more about Cedar Walton.
Agreed
Bill Evans has also been an outsized influence on bass players and drummers, because his innovative rhythm section approach and series of great bass players and drummers associated with him. As a young bass player, I was obsessed with scott lafaro and eddie gomez, so i ended up obsessed with the bill Evan's trio. Another larry bird of jazz piano that comes to mind is Victor Feldman....white, Jewish, not even american....and yet played some the most soulful, bluesy hard bop with Cannonball's band. Live at the lighthouse is epic.
and Joe Zawinul with that same Adderly band...
the way you used the Larry Bird comparison was good. to be honest i was a bit worried about what you were gonna do with it.
from birth we attach ourselves to people that look like our parents, family, and extending to ourselves. we can’t fully overcome that socialization even if we wanted to.
Bill is amazing, and kind of like Larry Bird, or more art related, Eminem. Truly a groundbreaking bastion of a genre for a specific demographic. Incredibly talented, but also over-attached to by those who can directly associate with him for obvious reasons.
The amount of people who don’t realize their bias when declaring Eminem or Bill comparisons, or rankings of greatness, compared to the rest of the field is certainly significant. I certainly don’t believe it’s in bad faith the vast majority of the time, but as Peter and Adam highlighted when saying the comparisons they received, it reveals something poignant.
in no way to take away from the all time greatness of Eminem, remember him saying “If i was black I woulda sold half.”
But above all, it’s about how the music feels when it hits our ears. it’s so beautiful how this music can speak and connect all of us.
Thanks for episode guys. There’s some valuable points made here. hoping you’ll hear it.
your welcome, and thanks for your thoughtful reply, appreciated 🙏🏼
Ok very nice words. We may have surfaced something important even magnificent.
A good portion of humanity can be cultivated naturally.
Find what we Admire about another
Just find that and behold cherish that. Everything else is less
That builds creates And heals
I like to think my comment on "The Six GOATs" video y'all did led to this discussion. To be fair though, Bird is consistently ranked well into the top-ten bball players of all time, which is probably similar to where Evans should rank with respect to jazz pianists. Maybe that was the point.
"I can make it to the NBA!"
Perhaps the greatest question ever posed. 🙏
Thank you, Gentlemen 🌹⭐🌹⭐🌹
your welcome 🙏🏼
It doesn't matter, they're all good. What matters is what he left us, pure beauty and genius.
Excellent discussion!! Thank you!
your welcome 🙏🏼
straight answer, YES, yes he is
Hi guys, It's funny when I saw this, I presumed you were going to talk about Bill self-professed working really hard at building his own way of playing, and not being the most natural talent (he has mentioned this about himself) - and that being the analogy to Bird. Wasn't expecting the white fans "overcompensation" idea? My take on this, yes this probably happens but when it comes to certain players both in basketball and jazz, there are some that are regarded as universally great regardless. Based on the amount of corroboration on both sides. There are tons of Larry Bird stories by his peers on TH-cam for example. In terms of overestimating Evans influence, I think each period has it particular instrumental hero and their achievements have to be seen in the context of that musical continuum. For example, how did he think of playing in "x" way when every one else was playing in "y" way. So for Evans this was in the 50s and beginning of 60s. I thought it was gutsy move to work within the language of bebop but really trying to stretch the language and not settle for transcribed cliches but really press for ideas that were a little different. Also pursuing a rhythmic approach a little bit against the grain, rather than forward momentum always. I think he built a certain model for the later greats Hancock, Corea and Jarrett to build upon. Just my 2 cents
Larry Bird is the Bill Evans of Basketball.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
If someone was blind and they were getting into jazz, would they hear bill’s whiteness? Could they hear the sound of blackness? How did the great African American jazz musicians put their struggle into an instrument? I don’t wanna untie the historical context of my favorite music genre but i don’t know how something sounds black.
Maybe it’s cuz I’m Hispanic and blackness is on a frequency that only African Americans can register but that sounds really weird and I don’t like that perspective.
I also wanna raise one last question: “Was jazz created because of the struggle or in spite of everything African Americans went through during that time?”
Bill Evans was Essential to the great artform we call Jazz.....it takes different talent from all walks of life to help take the Art from one generation to the other.....No one Man can develop any science/artform all by himself....
You really Steely Danned Blue in Green there.
😂💯
Is larry bird that much above rick berry ? jerry west ?
Im kind of not into this comparison , but , its in a good spirit
why do we rank jazz musicians?
It's just human nature. It would be fun to see an unsung heroes video though
oh dear, larry legend
In the 80's, high on the Showtime Lakers, i came to the conclusion that basketball is the jazz of sports. (imo the Larry Bird comparison to Bill Evans is misguided and unfortunate) But yes Bill Evans was beyond ... and definitely one of a kind!
Bill evans, reef carnival ... incredible ...
😂😂😂😂
An inductive genius! Yes...Bird would be the Bill Evans of basketball!
Peter and Adam are Jokic and Luka
GALA engaged
Jazz music is synergy of African music traditions with some European folk and Classical
elements. One must also respect the technological aspect of music in this regard. Take for example a Bill evans trio . You have the paino an instrument created in Italy combined the drum kit ( combining all drums together so that one individual could play them ) which was an African American invention. Along with the upright bass which is European invention.
Thus what Bill evans is more a result of musical interest overcoming racist attitudes.
Sick ‘sode
Larry Bird is the guy who lost to Magic Johnson in the 1979 NCAA championship. And went on to win 3 NBA championships to Magic's 5.
What Nord is Adam playing here?
Comparison is bad imo! Larry Bird won 3 straight mvp’s and along with Magic was at the top of the tree in the league. Bill was one of many great pianists who emerged in the 50s imo! The fact that he is elevated now over players like Sonny Clark, Hank Jones etc has always bothered me but I understand why his style is so popular and appealing!
Thinking about the even more difficult road for black classical instrumentalists, conductors, singers, and composers…
People should be able to play whatever music they want to. But in tune, pls.
As a white female sax player I thought about authority often…
But to me Bill Evans is an outlier; I think there are a LOT of not-black pianists whose sound/style was/is much closer to a mainstream sound, more blues/funk/swing, mostly indistinguishable from black pianists.
Confession: When I first started listening to the podcast, I spent a few episodes trying to figure out which one of you was the black guy…(I’m notorious in my family for having firmly held misconceptions with no obvious source…)
Bill Evans died September 15th 1980.
Where's the comment by Brad M?
The video on brad a couple episodes ago
That was an amazing comment from Brad. You guys are great, your analyses are awesome, and everybody knows it! Thanks for the show. I just like to imagine all of the beautiful music Bill would have given us if not for his unfortunate and very human issues. God bless you, Bill, may you finally rest in peace.
🙏🏼
The early Bill Evans trio was marvelous. Unfortunately his later substance abuse messed him up, and not just musically. His tempos were all over the place and his touch became really choppy.
I feel like the last few years of his life was pretty sad....wish he had lived thru the 80s into the 90s....50yrs old is still too young
I absolutely disagree. I think Bill Evans last 3 albums were his best. Almost impressionistic. Extremely beautiful. He was also on drugs his whole career basically btw. Just switched from heroin to coke
I especially love Bill Evans' latest trio with Marc Johnson (also because of Marc Johnson, who takes what Scott LaFaro started to a whole new level). His Paris album: it's as if he just wants to exude emotion and beauty without restraint because he knows he doesn't have long left.
I actually think Bill gets underated because he is white (at least outside piano players). I think he completely redefined trios.
Bill Evans:Swing
Larry Bird:Short shorts
It's not all they did, throughout their entire fine careers, but it's what's burned into your brain forever.
🩳😂
Kinda humorous. . They were chattering and seemed overtalking lol. there was some nervousness in the exchange
Bill Evans is BEST at Bill Evans.
The words per host...imbalanced. . hahaha.
I love these guys. What a priceless series. I teach some classically trained players jazz
Concepts. They love Bill Evans. He is a gentle gradient into personal signature on ones playing
uh yeah, we WERE nervous
Bill Evans was a genius piano player..had nothing to do with his race!
Stevie Wonder is a genius musician.. singer… composer
Not because he’s Black.
I love both of these people first time I heard them!
Period
Luther Vandros another genius musician
Race has nothing to do with it!
As a European, it always boggles me how much race is an issue in America. I know Miles had trouble with Evans because of his race etc., but I literally never saw him as a "white" pianist, as much as just a pianist, like every other pianist. The residue of slavery and the fucked up systemic racism prominent in the U.S. will probably never go away, as long as we refer to people as "white" this and "black" that, instead of just judging people on the content of their character, as Martin Luther King said. Music itself is audible; it has no color. So it makes even less sense to think this way here than in other areas. Jazz itself is even a merging of African rythms and syncopation with Western ("white") harmony, so from the beginning it's actually an interracial love child.
Anyway, that's my two cents. I think that since it's so omnipresent in American culture, Americans sometimes become blind to the absurdity of some of the conversations they're having, not realizing that talking and thinking that way to begin with is actually part of the problem. (When "white" and "black" are constantly heard in newscasts, for instance, the dumbest part of the population will constantly be reminded of these categories and therefore never forget them).
Not that Peter and Adam are not thoughtful individuals who know all this; they also mention this as public perception, and the whole episode as just some light hearted fun - which it was, and again, it's rooted in actual American culture. I'm just saying.. from an outside perspective, there seems to be a logic to the general culture and the problems arising from it.
Yes, I think you're right. But because of social media and the prominence of American sociopolitical influence, a lot of young people in English speaking countries are starting to adopt the language surrounding this issue, but lack the actual historical roots to really have an understanding of it and have perpetuated it in a very superficial manner that's really just yielding more division and disdain.
A lot of the problem is that racial division is based in the belief that there is something inherently different, at their very core and essence, between people who look different. Instead of challenging that fundamentally false axiom, it's criticized and adopted at the same time, leading to a core worldview founded in incoherence. The problem
is worsened overall and the actual problems of real injustice don't get addressed while new problems are created.
This is a problem in jazz and culture all the same. It's a fragile mess, too, because hardly anybody can talk about it.
You seem to be discrediting the very real social forces that are in play here. Different groups of people with common experiences develop intricately unique cultures. You can’t just erase the label of Japanese or Latin or African American/Black, or European American/White.
While we are all human, we have differences that reach deep into ways we philosophize, create art, and interact with the world, which makes the world exciting and full of flavor. But these differences also have lead to some bad things. Coming from a history of slavery, segregation and economic disenfranchisement, due to the exploitation of one race by another, we have another facet of why we can, and need to discuss differences between races.
Maybe in a homogenized country it’s easier to ignore that. In America, the study of critical law theory emerged to assess performance of the law. From that emerged applying An analysis of that by race or ethnicity. And of course they found plenty of differences in how those numbers worked out. I wonder why people are trying to demonize and ban it here in America. I’m not here to discuss any of those details though.
So, if it includes historical, economic, political, psychological, and social impact, it’s actually a necessity to discuss. Not like it can’t have bad faith, brainless, Ill intentioned use in discussion.
But we can’t just ignore it and think it will go away. That greatly idealist statement ignores much necessary context. Statements like this that attempt to make the very utterance of race or culture taboo are *actually* a part of the problem.
You quote Dr. King as a wise authority, but it seems odd as your comment opposes what he stood for in practically every significant way. He talks about people who think like you. And he condemns them.
You cast a stone at a presumed faulty logic and being absurdly blind, so maybe you will be able to see this stone coming.
@@djsjdh-hoahdi I challenge this idea that people think inherently different based on phenotypic traits i.e. "race." I am of Native Mexican and European descent and I find this claim to be unnecessary limiting and based on a presupposition (as I addressed). It claims that I'm supposed to perceive the world a certain way stricty based on my background and assumption that my life looks a very specific way because of my "group" membership, or anybody else for that matter.
I'm aware that because of some peoples' perceptions of racials groups, there are negative effects, but that's the problem. The actions that cause the harm are based in the fundamental error, and reinforced by people claiming to want to combat it.
@@djsjdh-hoahdi One of the errors that "groups" think and act a certain way. The problem with this is that "groups" don't think any way at all, individuals think and act, the group is an abstract method of analysis that's less than accurate. But it's easier for people to
point to groups and say they've done things. Axioms, worldviews, and subsequent actions informed by the axioms are what create systems. Systems are implemented by people, multiple individuals, who subscribe to belief. People falsely believe race is a proper method of evaluation, so they form failing "systems" of implementation and failing "systems" that claim to remedy the issue while holding onto the same fundamental errors just reinforce the issue.
THANK you
if you're bringing up larry bird then this is some boomer jazz talk...
Gen X talk actually.......
I find the question you pose here to be absolutely sick and reprehensible. I'm never watching another episode of this again. Shame on you for this sick race-baiting.
You guys waffle and are two unfocused on the topic. Need more conversational discipline!
He was a decent musician, but he was not on the level of Bud Powell or Wynton Kelly.
What instrument does "Larry Bird" play?😎