What did we actually learn from Man City vs Tottenham?
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Tottenham held Man City to a 3-3 draw at the Etihad on Sunday, continuing their run of good results against Pep Guardiola's side in a Premier League thriller.
Dejan Kulusevski's late equaliser was enough to grab a point for Ange Postecoglou's side in a game that was marred by a controversial refereeing decision in added time, where Jack Grealish may of had a chance to win it if not for Simon Hooper's call.
The draw has extended Arsenal's lead at the top of the league and left the title race wide open. But what did we learn from the game, and just what's to come for these sides over a busy December fixture list?
JJ Bull and Jon Mackenzie discuss.
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#mancity #tottenham #premierleague
I'm surprised part of the narrative isn't how dangerous Spurs could really be to a team like city when not playing with half their normal starters. Most of the good City had were a result of bad passing for the CB partnership of non-CBs.
You could certainly flip it as well because City were missing (imo) their most important players in Stones and KDB
No you couldn't, they have two squads of quality players sorry they didn't have one of the world's top 5 availAble and a quality defender, I suppose they willing have to make do with all the other superstars they havelol. Were as Spurs had players who would never touch a city shirt and probably shouldn't a spurs shirt. No natural centre backs and the centre backs there is play were the second choice full backs. Give us some credit!
@@MarkWalmsley I agree Spurs had it much worse but it’s crazy to me how people can’t see that at some points in the season City went from one of the best midfields (Stones, Gundogan, Rodri and KDB) ever to none of them. They have good squad depth in terms of quality but not having your two most important players would affect any team
@@MarkWalmsleyyou feel like a very miserable person... i'm sorry for you
@@emilevangheem6165Spurs were missing Romero, Van de Ven, Maddison and Sarr in addition to many important bench players like Solomon and Perisic.
Up until this recent injury crisis, Gil and Lo Celso basically hadn't made a single appearance this season and Kulusevski never in the creative midfield role. Not to mention the 2 full back cover players suddenly being the main CB partnership. I think there's a pretty clear difference in terms of severity.
Ange had an impact on Celtic fans, he'll have the same impact on Tottenham fans. He wants fast attacking play and lots of goals - What's not to love?
The one that got away 😪
Lots of injuries, fatigue, burnout
Gaping holes in the back that the midfielders and defenders have to cover and ultimately increase injury risk
He's essentially going down the Liverpool route with his physically very demanding style of play. We already see the drop-off when the key players get injured that Liverpool had as well for a long time. Spurs need to improve that depth both for short term improvement as well as long term longevity.
As an arsenal fan who had a manager who only played one way it gets annoying when people find holes in your plan fyi sometimes playing a few different ways is more effective
4:38 absolutely hit the nail on the head there Mr Bull. Those players will never improve nor understand the system Ange wants to impose if every time they’re slightly under any pressure they abandon all their principles.
Edit: it’s also very curious/depressing that mainstream british punditry only has this approach of negativity towards expansive football, if a manager set ups with a low block and gets pumped by city you wouldn’t hear any comments about how they set up, but when a manager goes for it they all lose their heads
Hail hail you're spitting facts
Some pundits, Tim Howard(who I will point out is American) among them, agree with you 100%
Spot on mate . . .
With 20mins gone at The Etihad a certain Gary Neville was praising Ange's philosophy, playing well at the home of the champions, with half a team missing, including 2 of the PL's best CB's . . . 20mins later he's questioning the very same points he was praising earlier in the half
Tottenham we're excellent yesterday & it's all down to Postercoglou's tactics, & once this team are back to full strength (and with a few top-class additions to come in January/Summer we're only gonna get stronger)
IN ANGE WE TRUST !!!
Culturally I think a lot of the pundit grew up with route one football as default safe football. Everything that deviate from that is considered risky. By the way this is similar with Australian pundits as well. Ange got lot of stick when he implemented this style with Brisbane and finished second bottom of the aleague in his first season and similar when he coaches the Socceroos and Ange struggled towards the end of his reign requiring playoffs to qualify
Even as a Pool fan fighting against Spurs in the league, I admire Ange and his team so much. They have heart, spirit and cohesion.
They're basically the opposite of United.
Those things were said about united 1 year ago so lets wait for few months
@@Janko.1Ange is in a different stratosphere to Ten Haag
I'm still trying to figure out what Ten Hag’s style is. Leave aside bad form. Wtf is he trying to do?
@@CatchMeOnPort8080 get the sack and a fat pay day? 🤣
@@Boomtowndogs Agreed big Ange has achieved more than ETH could ever dream of ⛳
Yves Bissouma had a bad game and I think a lot of that had to do with not having Sarr playing next to him. They just play off of each other exceptionally well.
Sarr is so underrated this year, i agree
Daddy Sarr is a good asset to Ange.
*Bissouma is rash* and unthinking. The presence of Sarr holds him to account to some degree, but in the end it's a lost cause when they're surrounded by a squad of obtuse hotheads like Romero, Pedro Porro, Udogie, Lo Celso and Richarlison.
@@vaffangool9196 porro a hothead? Hahaha
@@thomaswiedner2524
“Let me loose in a prison and I’ll end up owning the place."
-Pedro Porro, March 2023
people forget when Klöpp came to the league he wouldn't change his way for nothing.
everything clicked when he got the players to fit that.
if Levy gives Ange this, the what a team that'll be!
Yeah Liverpool were very fragile in his system until they bought VVD. Ange just drew 3-3 with two 2nd choice full backs at CB!
Exactly I remember us (Spurs) tearing them apart 4-1 at Wembley and people thinking that Klopp isn’t all that. Well the rest is history, look what they won vs what we won in since then.
I like that Ange sticks to his tactics. When your CBs are Royal and Davies you don't actually want them in position to be defending all that often. How do you accomplish that? You press and try and get possession. A low block with that back line would not have worked ultimately.
I think changing your style of play from positive attacking football to a low block is probably a confidence killer for the team. Its like your manager is saying "we can't play against these guys the way we know how to so lets drop back and hope for the best". I know as a player I would be quite angry that the manager doesn't trust the team to perform the way they have. This is a problem I think United suffers from as an example, they seem to play nice football when facing lower level sides but all that goes out the window when faced with a top side.
Yes. I don't think a manager should dictate every single move the players gotta make on the pitch. Because when every single one of those moves fail to work, the players will be left with nothing to do and would be stunned. Like the Man United players were against Newcastle.
Quite some room has to be made for creativity and finding a solution on the pitch. That's one thing that an amateur like Ten Hag doesn't get.
Look at Ancelotti, he doesn't lean much on the tactical side, and is more concerned with the relationships between the players. There's more to it than just tactics when it comes to being a manager.
Spot on friend. Under Fergie all this crap about players being left out because of arguments would never had happened. I can understand Ten Hag wanting to make a point by leaving out players but results are the most important thing and playing Evans and Maguire over Varane is suicide.
He could bench stars at Ajax because the league was so easy but you simply can't bench your best defender and think you will win games in the Prem and CL.@@Chip_Fuse
Genuinely love how free reign everyone's getting at Tifo honestly, the Elephant bit is just so wholesome in between the football analysis
*Rein.* It's _free rein._
More elephant anatomy.
@@vaffangool9196 Pretty sure it could also be free *reign*, you know? Like they're *reign*ing over the set, rein works too but reign also makes sense
@@tokenredhead1
*No. **_Free reign_** is* what's called an _eggcorn,_ sometimes described as a slip of the ear. It's not open to interpretation, it's simply wrong-unless you're trying to create a pun.
*The expression* originated as horseback-riding jargon referring to the technique of holding the reins loosely so as to allow the horse to freely move along at its own pace and in its desired direction. Its earliest use in a figurative sense-referring to unrestricted liberty of action or decision-goes back to at least 1635.
*To be fair,* yours is a fairly common error, seen in print as early as 1896. To quote Merriam-Webster:
_Why it begins to appear during a time when the horse was still the primary mode of transportation is puzzling....in modern times, misinterpretation of "free rein" as "free reign" is a bit more understandable- _*_though still grammatically wrong_*_ -after all, how often does the average person handle the reins of a horse?_
@@vaffangool9196 I mean yeah wow that is really interesting and yeah I can definitely see how the history of the phrase obviously shows the meaning clearly. Still, I think language is up for interpretation. Obviously I have mistaken the original phrase, but since that mistake is culturally wide, it might evolve in the future to the point that it becomes “free reign”. Thank you for that though, that’s incredibly interesting
Came for the football analysis on how Spurs played out, stayed for the elephants.
17:55 The Carthaginians (Mediterranean Africa) attacked the Romans by marching Elephants through Gibraltar and across the Alps like absolute madlads. The situation of panic and terror JJ was describing was that of the Roman rear guard who thought they were far, far away from the heat of the war.
That random tangent reminded me of the podcast days, god i miss it
Ange the Hannibal then
@@celtic69hardcore history vibes
Chelsea-Tottenham-City are the triumvirate of entertainment this season,
19 goals from three games so far is INSANE.
Triumvirate, im stealing that word, thanks
Hardly 😂😂
triumvirate. Good word that one
Liverpool have been pretty entertaining as well this season ngl
@@emilevangheem6165 as have Arsenal, Brighton, Newcastle, Villa
The thing when the media saying that Ange should change his playstyle is that it's because they see Tottenham as a lower tier football club. Would they tell Arteta, Klopp to change their tactics and the way they play against big clubs like City? No. Even tho yes, Tottenham is far from being the best club in England, but clearly his intent to stick to his principals even when playing against City is an attempt to make us the big team, or at least play like one.
The pass was from Kulusevski, not Lo Celso
As someone who's bored of Man City's domination, this season is constant joy
isn't every neutral bored? The one outcome I don't want is City winning the league AGAIN. As for the rest, anything goes, I don't really care. But I still expect City to come from behind and win the league with a casual 20 game winning streak
How about today!
What I really like about Ange's system is that he is trying to combine the two most important aspects of the game - defending in numbers and counterattacking. He does this by playing out from the back to draw people in so that if they do lose it they have numbers (despite it being close to their goal), and if it works and you beat the press you have manufactured your own counter-attack.
The system was much better in the second half than the first half, and that is an example of Ange being pragmatic and tactically astute (Gil doesn't have the physicality, sadly). And for all the craziness of the call at the end by the ref, and the howlers by Haaland we have a game here where City needed an own-goal to draw the game and looked pretty terrible defensively. Imagine if Spurs had had Romero, Van der Ven, Sarr, and Maddison (or Bentancur).
"I made them Hench as well, look at the stonks on this one". This is the funniest thing I've heard all year like my neighbours heard me laughing I laughed that loud 😂😂😂
Feel like fans of the big 6 were driving this idea that Spurs were back to reality because of their 3 losses. As a Villa fan who has no real agenda, they were quality against us with a massively depleted squad. They also would’ve slapped Chelsea if Romero and Udogie didn’t lack discipline
I definitely felt that we were a bit unlucky not to get something against you guys in that game, but I am fearing the return fixture! You guys have been immense at home and even now people are still underestimating you by putting you into the same category as Newcastle or Brighton when you are clearly a level above.
@@danh945 yeah you should’ve been 3 up by half time 😂 Maddison’s passing against our high line would’ve been dangerous. Definitely agree on Brighton, I commented on a video at the start of the season saying De Zerbi was overrated and that they’d finish around 10th and got attacked left right and centre for it. Unfortunately still think Newcastle will finish above us
@LT-zs5nn Nevermind Newcastle, at this rate you'll finish above City!
JJ proving once again he is an actual man by bringing up the Roman Empire.
Gil for Hjoberg shows that Ange WILL change the team - the philosophy, AngeBall, will not change: it will entertain, it will succeed and Spurs fans will sing Ange's name for years to come. COYS!
Very insightful video lads. And the horse/elephant discussion was just the cherry on top.
That segue from JJ, turning to the camera and saying: "...for more expert football analysis..." having just drawn and shown pictures of elephants is simply sublime. X'D
We learn that Man United can't play for sure (coming from United fan)
we already knew that
Man united are a Sunday league team at this point ,11 random players coming together to play games
It took you this long?😅😂
yall should bring back the podcast, i loved listening to it
The "had they played more pragmatically would they have got a better result" narrative is a sure-fire sign you haven't been listening.
The way he sets us up is not primarily about winning the game. It is about ingraining a style and mentality which - when fully learned - will enable us to win games in the future. To be pragmatic - to change the style and mentality - in order to win a single game undermines everything Ange is trying to do.
Spurs created 0.6 xg and conceded 3.1 xg yesterday for all their “expansive” and “attacking” football. Their field tilt was 34% which is more or less how decent teams set up against City. Their defensive action height was also closer to lowish mid block as opposed to how Klopp or Poch or Arteta played against City this season.
This was not a Dyche low block but it’s definitely not expansive or daredevil like many online are making it out to be.
Credit for playing with depleted team and having to come back a couple of times and fighting till the end to get a point but don’t pretend this isn’t what Jose or Conte did to City when they were at Spurs.
@@deepu14693if you think this game is similiar to how conte played against city another Sport might be more fitting for you lol.
@deepu14693 yes but reason we played low and mid block was because we gave the ball away so much we were forced into playing that way when we didn't mean to
@@thomaswiedner2524 I have listed stats to make my case unlike you. What is yours? Media vibes?
If you take the vibes out of the equation, the stats say how Spurs played tactically is much closer to how they have in the past against City. Rather than say, how Arteta or Klopp or Poch played City this season.
@@deepu14693 if you watched the game you'd recognize these "stats" had nothing to do with tactics. Spurs didn't set up to sit deep, they were just caught in the press so often that they were forced deep. There were many times City were running at the back 4 having bypassed the midfield. This rarely happens against a low block. They were also team pressing high up the pitch, but City beat it over and over again in the first half I bet if you compare the stats from the two halves, you'd see a very different story. The only tactical difference between the two halves being Spurs began beating the press and playing with a double pivot in the second half (which is a big part as to why they were beating the press).
Great video, I especially appreciated that you didn't stray off on a tangent. You were about to be distracted, but you stayed on the all important horse/elephant topic. Loved it!
I saw the odds before the game were City -400something, and I knew that was way wrong. I knew Spurs would compete.
Great content, I would love there to be more content focused on other leagues. Barca - Atletico Madrid yesterday was a huge match with a lot to unpack. Inter-Napoli was also a huge game, Leverkusen-Dortmund as well. Many storylines and interesting tactical battles: Simeone's new tactics vs Xavi, Napoli's downfall and Inters rise.
I think because of their partnership with Athletic, they'll mostly be limited to EPL. A shame, honestly. They could've brought different analysts who understand the different leagues and made it more interesting.
What've learned is that the rules for player conduct will not be applied uniformly - just like the other rules off the pitch.
Agree. Haaland’s petulance often goes unpunished. He’s one of the worst in the league & gets away with it every time.
This is the thing with the Big 6 matches, always 🔥
1️⃣Chelsea v Man City
2️⃣ Chelsea v Spurs
3️⃣ Arsenal v Man United
4️⃣ Man City v Spurs
5️⃣ Spurs v Liverpool
The best so far this season. Can't wait for Liverpool v Arsenal!
Brian Gill's turn to set up the first counter attack goal was very special. That said, the decision to call back the play when Grelish was through right at the end was shockingly bad.
The biggest misconception is that Ange doesn't adapt.
He does not change his philosophy but he absolutely adapts how they go about it within that philosophy.
Anyone that says he is naive doesn't understand what he's actually doing.
Serious question:
Jon, where can we get the tee you're wearing? It looks freaking awesome. Tried searching retro Atletico Nacional tee for hours but nothing.
It might've been Phil Mickelsen, the golfer, who said: "It's a funny thing. The more I practice, the luckier I get."
I think it's pretty true with xG and xGA as well. Those tend to roughly even out over the course of a season, but the better teams are _far_ more likely to outperform them.
"A deeply unwelephant" might be one of my favorite phrases of late.
Ange with a few windows will be interesting. Given the way lo celso and kulusevski have done in the middle I think they are actually alright in midfield but they definitely need a winger, striker and cover for every position in defence
what application is used here? It looks really cool and I would love to use it- i mean like what program is used here
I love you two. Came for the football, stay for the 'how would a horse play football' discussion.
the problem with city right now is no debruyne
The only certainties in life are death, taxes and Ange sticking to his tactics.
Might not be able to call foul on a horse but you can certainly call foal
Drawing elephants => analyzing the elephant drawings => “For more football analysis…”
😂😂
Just and John running a demonstration of how to develop creative thinking 😉💯
Seriously guys bring back the podcast with Joe Bovine even if it's just 20 minutes or so.
Point of correction on the first goal. Kulusevski played the long ball to Son and Brennan Johnson was up field to support Son.
Don't suppose anyone knows where Jon got that jumper from 'cause im actually desperate for one now I've seen this video 🤔
It is quite fruitless and frankly annoying to constantly hear self-appointed experts questioning Ange Postecoglou's work. He has been playing "his" way for years with great success. Why not wait until the end of the season at least, if you are lucky, you might just look a little less ridiculous with your unqualified assessments.
Bits of the old podcast in here. I miss it. 😢❤
I’d give my pinky to hear Alex and Seb wax poetic about Angeball
@@Boomtowndogs and have joe and jj just make noises at each other. Id give a lot
It made me feel a lot of schadenfreude at the end with a team so favored by the refs and full of divers/dirty players otherwise Haaland especially included
I just love the fact that Tottenham are someone’s bogey team
Man City aren’t off, Liverpool, Arsenal, Tottenham etc have all improved, while City is mostly the same. Premier League this season is very competitive.
My girlfriend has some pretty bad ADHD, and she can't derail a conversation the way JJ can. Amazing stuff.
Dont think any manager has been able to integrate Bryan Gil into spurs squad... Gil... has shined under Ange. Ange doesnt change his system... ive seen him stick to this in finals.
Funny that John is wearing a Nacional sweater after they lost their local clasico 5 - 0 yesterday
Umm, when are you releasing the next Elephant Drawing discussion?
Spurs are a joy to watch, Ange could be truly special in the long run for them
What you 'pundits' have to understand is, Ange P has a philosophy of how the game will be played ... he expects, actually make that demand, his players follow it ... right now, circumstances dictate we have some of our second string, our back up, whatever you want to call them playing ... any side who lose their CB pairing and have a decimated midfield will absolutely struggle but we, some results aside, are going pretty well but one day soon, we'll have our strongest team on the pitch and it'll be strap yourself in ... but the thing is, when one of those players gets injured, gets tired, loses form, gets called away for international duty or whatever, those 'second string' or 'back-up' players will slot in and the loss in quality or tempo or whatever will be as minimal as it can be ... it really is that simple
"the horse could hoof it long" 😀
The tangent of John Stones on a horse, was very useful. Thank you
What a time to rep Athletico Nacional
I love the analysis, but I also love it when the conversation descends into "did the Romans have elephants?"
Kulu was the assistant of the first Sonny Goal
NICE SHIRT JOHNNY MAC! best team in colombia - controversy and all
Ange's mindset of "plan B is to do plan A better" is one of the main reasons why his stint as Australian head coach went sour towards the end. He was playing a 3-4-3 with wingers rather than wingbacks, which left the back line exposed unless an aging Mile Jedinak was playing, however he would only last 60 minutes as his legs had gone at that point. It was a system which apeared like it wasn't working which almost resulted in Australia not qualifying for Russia 2018. Ange is a better coach now than what he was when managing Australia but if things go bad at Spurs, this will most likely be the reason the media/fans will turn against him.
I love JJ BULL'S Funny character 😅..
The last few minutes were irrelephant.
EPL teams are fully prepared for city this season after citys encounter with inter , alot of info about thier tatics was exposed.
If City didnt generate so much chances I would agree with you, for me they tend to slow down in the second half and get caught between scoring more goals or just controlling the game. theyre to complacent.
I very much enjoyed the brief interlude of horse chat in the middle of serious analytical conversation and neither person broke hahahaha
my favorite part was the elephant tangent (jk incredible analysis as always, very insightful)
I mean you say city aren't having any luck either end of the pitch, but....
How did they score their first again last night?
Agree with the analysis that city's performance can be explained by falling on the wrong side of the variance. I think another aspect is also the lack of kdb.
I still think man city are favorites to win the league
"If you look at the underlying points models"... then Chelsea are 5th. So maybe the models are not that good? Maybe xG isn't as robust as you think it is?
Yep, you can expect goals all you want, but if they don't end up getting the ball in the net it doesn't matter.
The guy said he was “Old enough to remember the last few times spurs have beaten man city.”
I shut it off after that.
Is he being sarcastic or is he “old enough” to note the last few seasons? City always struggles with us.
The last 5 matches Tottenham have won 3,drew 1,and lost 1
This should be happen one way or another
Pep is over-praised by referee that he can get away and win many trophies with referee's help back in his barcelona days
The most famous one is barca vs chelsea ovrebo
Both teams were looking shakey
klopp did the same thing when he came to the PL. refused to capitulate tactically for points, and built a side that got those points
Best episode ever!
This is what happens when JJ’s tangents are not ignored 😂 . Who would have thought a tactical discussion on ManCity v Spurs would end with an elephant drawing competition 😂
Loved the little art therapy session at the end :D
Xg surely has to be the most pointless stat ever created
We learned that the certainty of City having most of what they've achieved over the last several seasons of being rightly stripped from them is starting to weigh on players and coaches. Sure, it's the fault of the wealth-sick Oil Royals. But don't minions *always* suffer the most?
So JJ was thinking about the Roman Empire during the making of this video
Spurs will challenge for the title next season, wouldn’t even rule out this season but I think their injuries and defensive depth will let them down
How were Tottenham supposed to shut shop and play defensively when their only defensive minded defender available was Eric dier
I'm just thinking about the return of de bruyne
I don’t really know anything about Spurs or Man City, but I’m glad I finally found out what an elephant looks like.
We need more content like the discussion of elephants, oh and football manager
The horse part
Once Ange has time and money to hand pick world class players, they'll finish top 3 or even challenge for the title. At the current state of affairs, Spurs seem more likely to sit around 5 or 6 behind Arsenal, Newcastle, Villa
Where is Joe Devine? I get that the podcast is dead but are we really never going to see him again?
Wow! What a load of dribble 😩
10:05 how has JJ forgotten that the word "simply" exists 😂
Why are these guys talking about horses and elephants for?.
unstoppable force vs immovable object
So, wait. Ange plays his way against city and because he’s got a result he’s a genius.
Ten Hag does it and he’s naive.
The decision at the end from the ref has to be one of the worst decisions ever
can't believe there wasn't a "calling foal" joke in the horse skit
Wasn't it Hannibal's elephants that went to town against the Romans?
Pep is a nerd playing with his video games, his players are his sims, somehow boring and lifeless to watch. I know they are great and all, but boring to watch. Like going to a very established pharmaceutical company with the best professionals. But Ange's Spurs is like kindergarten on a lunch break, the rule is simple : don't die and have fun.
How could you possibly think the way city played yesterday was boring. The game was entertaining throughout with both teams employing high presses and committing to play out the back. How could you possibly think the goals city scored were boring. Both were fast paced intricate passing after winning the ball back from their high press. City can sometimes be boring against low blocks but that’s the case with any time and they certainly weren’t boring yesterday.
@@charlierennie9192they play the same way every game. It's what the opposition does that makes it good to watch or not.
@@charlierennie9192 I'd rather watch Man Utd plays stupidly rather than Man City day in day out. At least Man Utd has clowns. Watching city is like going to office.
@@IVIRnathanreilly if you watched the games you know they don’t play the exact same but ofc they have a system they keep using they’ve literally won the treble with it. When Man City play other top teams it’s always good to watch and the football can be really entertaining
The 3 CBs at the back paired with opposition wingers is the 1st key. 2nd is to break the front 5 press. Then a good defense. Of KDB arrives there nothing you can do.
It's a bit of a kneejerk meme already, that he's inflexible, yet he made major changes and adaptation V City, obviously quite noticably in the difference between halves.
Not that these lads don't cover some angles 🤔
very entertaining game but this was City's game to lose. Spurs were fortunate that City wasn't up 3-1 or 4-1 at half
It was. But this game is no anomaly - City always trounce us on xG and chances, but we somehow manage to find a way to win in 50% of matches. I think Son is just City's kryptonite or something.
Kulusevski has scored in all three of his matches at the Etihad.