Jose Abreu Throws Glove at Ball After Framber Valdez's Wild Throw in Kansas City - What's the Call?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2024
- Astros pitcher Framber Valdez struggled to field a soft ground ball by Royals batter Logan Porter and threw wildly to first base, Houston 1B Jose Abreu throwing his glove to stop the ball. Umpires signaled a violation immediately and place runners. But what's the rule, anyway? Report: www.closecalls...
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With 1B Umpire Angel Hernandez occupied with looking at the potential play at first base (this is a CORRECT MECHANIC) and 2B Umpire James Hoye looking for a play at second, it was HP Umpire Derek Thomas and 3B Umpire John Libka who spotted the thrown glove-touching-thrown ball infraction.
Official Baseball Rule 5.06(b)(4) covers this and other base award situations, stating that runners may advance without liability to be put out:
Three bases when a thrown glove touches a fair ball
Two bases when a thrown glove touches a thrown ball
The crew awarded Royals batter-runner Logan Porter second base (two bases from home plate) and awarded lead runner R1 Nick Loftin third base...which seems to have been erroneous, as replays indicate Loftin was already standing on second base at the time of the ball touching.
Love how this channel doesn’t shy away from calling out umpires for improper signals and rulings. We all learn from this.
Turns out Libka IS capable of making a mechanics mistake! 😂😂
He only had one hand on the air and was signaling two bases not time.
@@coolluke A raised hand with two extended fingers is the signal for a two-base dead-ball award. Libka's mechanics were incorrect and he was killing the play. He should have instead pointed at the violation, as is done for Type 2 obstruction, catcher's interference, and other such scenarios where the ball remains live, but may be made dead at the conclusion of play to award bases.
I’m pretty sure every channel, fan, coach and player of every sport loves calling out every imperfection by every official.
I'm not going to kill Libka for this one. Detached equipment, especially out in the field of play (not involving a catcher using his mask to stop a rolling ball) is such a rare thing that at times you just find yourself searching for SOME KIND OF SIGNAL to signal the infraction.
The only time I ever had this on the field I got myself so turned around, I actually uses the Fan Interference signal. Lol
I’ve seen players try to throw the glove at the ball (all have missed) and had coaches come out to argue… but yeah, if the glove (or hat or mask or any other detached equipment) touch the ball.. violation.. no touch.. no violation…. and Lyndsay missed one part of the rule.. if the ball appears to have been going over the fence… 4 bases…
She skipped the irrelevant parts of the rule if you notice the rule subsets that were cited.
@@touchdown62 Except there are a lot of people who always ask "If the ball is going over the fence, it's smart to throw your glove and the runner gets 3 bases." They don't know the umpire can award 4 bases.
In case anyone was wondering…the runner who should have been awarded home plate on the thrown glove scored on the next pitch anyway, so it didn’t cost the Royals a run. But it was pretty clear the umpires blew the placement of the runners.
saying the umps "blew" this is a little harsh IMO. To say that they knew where each runner was at the moment the glove contacted the ball is almost impossible........especially when you see something like this probably once in 10 years. My problem is how does MLB just not allow the umps to have a crew chief review and have NY tell them exactly where the runners were? Everyone cries about using replay, yet MLB(and other sports also) don't allow officials to use it when really needed
@@mptr1783 I agree with you on the replay. The umps called the correct rules infraction, and knew the penalty to enforce. Why should they not be allowed to consult the replay to ensure they apply it to the correct spot? It makes no sense.
Before the Hernandez haters show up here, I want to compliment him for umpiring his priorities at 1B correctly. Once it is obvious that the throw is offline and there will not be a force play at 1B, the next priority is to ensure that the batter-runner touches the base (and avoid becoming entangled with F3, too). As U1, we doesn't really care what happens with the ball for a short period of time, as the primary responsibility is the touch. The PU and U3 also do a great job keeping their eyes everlastingly on the ball when they don't otherwise have a call to make or a touch to watch.
Also, watch the batter/ runner to determine if he makes a movement to second base after touching first base or passing by first base.
From Angel's field positioning, he couldn't know positively that glove touched the ball. He had to look batter/runner, touched base, turn towards 2nd, etc. Crew Chief Hoye came in too soon and didn't see when runner touched 2nd. Football officials who umpire know how to stay back and open up the view instead of narrowing the view and situation.
@@bruceboman9801you mean James missed R-1 touch second base?
@@rayray4192 When he got to second. Watched the game live and thought they'd award R1 home, not 3rd.
@@bruceboman9801 it’s a blown call. Baseball is a game of failure. The umpire crew failed to perform perfectly. It’s like life. All humans fail much more than they act successfully.
I don't really watch baseball but the breakdown of esoterica like this is absolutely fascinating.
Watching that bit at the end, what's the rule call done on "awarded bases" if two players would have to get awarded the same base. In this situation, let's say R1 didn't make it to 2nd, but the batter runner did make it to 1st. Which would put them both at 3rd on award.
Great question. The rules actually do cover this scenario and say the trail runner would have to settle for one base. 5.06(b)(4)(G) Comment.
The lead runner gets his awarded base, and any trail runners just have to get in line behind him.
Might be correct. But we are using 5.09b4g (ball out of play) comment about a dead ball to clarify 5.09b4d (thrown glove) when the ball stays in play.
I’m not sure that the hypothetical would ever happen. But I’m not so sure that we should hold the trailing runner when EACH runner is entitled to 2 bases.
In the case of obstruction, you would award a trail runner his base even if it means awarding a lead runner an additional base.
This hypothetical might be closer to obstruction than ball thrown out of play.
This is where the crew chief should be able to call for a review of the play and get the call right. There is a lot happening in real time and review would allow them to see where the runners were when the glove touched the ball.
totally agree........watched the Mets/Phils game last night(5/13/24) and all 4 umpires lost the count. Crew Chief called for a review and NY ended up reviewing the tape and giving them the count. Took all of 30 seconds
Equipment means, glove, hat, arm pad, oven mit, batting glove, whatever. Key, is has to TOUCH the ball. Three bases-batted ball; two bases thrown ball. This case runner on 2nd should have been awarded home. But they determined on field that when ball was touched he hadn"t touched 2nd.
2:39 what is this sound effect from? im getting nostalgia
That sound effect was the SOUND25.WAV audio file from Full Tilt! Pinball, most familiar to those who played the Space Cadet table when it was included as demo software in 1995 as part of the Microsoft Plus! upgrade package for Windows 95.
@@teebob21 THANK YOU! thats it! also very informative, much appreciated!
@@AREALLYBIGSPOON At your service.
what if: the batter runner had passed first but the runner on first on the pitch hadn't yet gotten to second. where is each placed when both "should" be awarded third?
I'd take it as they may both advance to third, except that would cause a different conflict, so the trailer wouldn't.
@@chrisschack9716You are correct. 5.06(b)(4)(G) Comment clarifies what happens when two runners seemingly get awarded the same base. The lead runner gets the base in question and the trail runner gets the base behind that. In this case, R1 goes to third and the BR gets second.
These 2 might be correct. But we are using 5.09b4g (ball out of play) comment about a dead ball to clarify 5.09b4d (thrown glove) when the ball stays in play.
I’m not sure that the hypothetical would ever happen. But I’m not so sure that we should hold the trailing runner when EACH runner is entitled to 2 bases.
In the case of obstruction, you would award a trail runner his base even if it means awarding a lead runner an additional base.
This hypothetical might be closer to obstruction than ball thrown out of play.
@@MwD676 No, you cannot award a trail runner a base that would move the lead runner an additional base.
More hilarity of the MLB's "We need replay because the priority is to get the calls right"
But apparently not if 15 seconds have gone by due to confusion.
The 3rd base umpire may have been holding up 2 fingers to signal the violation, which is permitted. I would think he would do a loud "time" signal if he was trying to kill the play.
Holy shit a call that wasn't Angel Hernandez's fault this time?
Tell everyone you're a loser without telling us. Leave Angel alone. If that's all you know about umpiring, learn more things.
😂 first time for everything. It's even funnier because people are getting upset about Angel jokes.
I guess it's (E). And I think the umps erred on the batter too at that point, you'd have to place him at third, or run a replay review to see if he got first base.
There is no way the batter gets third when the video shows he had not yet reached first when the infraction occurred.
Are you sure I can't blame Angel?
You *can*, but you'll be 100% wrong.
@@teebob21not one for jokes?
@@BobbySacamano Oh, I like jokes. Do you have any funny ones?
@@teebob21Lindsay started it.
@@BobbySacamano That joke wasn't funny either.
Seen several players do it, so I didn't think it was illegal.
Why isn’t the base reward the conclusion of the play since that is what would have been challenged? It is obvious that there has to be a call on the field to be challenged, and there wasn’t one until base awards were handed out.
It was. The time from the base awards signaled after the crew consultation until the challenge request was greater than 15 seconds
Detached equipment on a thrown ball is 2 bases from infraction.
3 Bases is for Fair BATTED ball.
I don't recall the "high-five of death" and can't find it.. anyone?
E200 - David Ross Ejected Over Tripp Gibson's Balk No-Call & Potential Base Coach Interference in KC
th-cam.com/video/4TgLxr4W1ag/w-d-xo.html
E200: th-cam.com/video/4TgLxr4W1ag/w-d-xo.html
It's from Ejection 200: th-cam.com/video/4TgLxr4W1ag/w-d-xo.html
@@CloseCallSports thanks!!! Idk how I missed that one
So they did a rules check and still got it wrong?!? Who in New York can’t read the rule book?
They can't review runner placement - so they probably thought the runner hadn't reached 2nd base yet (in which case he would get only 3rd). If the Royals had challenged in time it would have been overturned and the runner would have been given home.
@@BigBear48 runner placement is reviewable but the argument here is that the Royals didn't challenge in the window
IMO the window shouldn't apply when the call is so unclear the umpiring crew has to convene and discuss - how can you decide to challenge if you don't know the outcome of the play?
But that's what happened here - they just consulted on the rule to make sure they got it right, but didn't review the locations of the runners at the time of infraction because the window for the Royals to challenge had already passed. Even before deciding to challenge, the manager must immediately signal within 15s of the play for a 'pause for potential challenge', then gets a little longer to actually decide. If they don't call the initial pause, then their challenge window is over.
Does MLB have a delayed dead ball like NFHS Softball does? If yes, is the signal still left arm out to the side?
Even though baseball has situations that are de facto a “delayed dead ball” like these thrown glove touching a live ball scenarios, I don’t believe there is any other signal in baseball except to point at the infraction. Maybe they also give a verbal on field call when they point at the infraction? We do in softball I.e. on obstruction we give the delayed dead ball signal and we say verbally “obstruction!”.
Point
When I first began umpiring, that was the mechanic. I think most umpires thought holding the fist out was silly and looked goofy. the vast majority of umpires will point and verbalize the infraction.
Delayed dead ball signal was borrowed from softball and used in FED baseball for a few years. It was supposed to have been dropped by 2013, but I still see it. The signal was never part of the OBR code.
Thanks to the dumb umpiring, it turned out to be a smart, base saving play by Abreu. The runner on second likely scores and the batter likely gets to 3rd if that ball goes down the line.
Dumb umpiring or dumb rule? The batter didnt reach 1st base yet, so he gets 2nd base(which they dumb umps gave him)
@@mptr1783 Dumb umpiring for not awarding the runner from 1st home, since he had already passed 2nd base.
@@FUGP72 Pretty harsh to call the umpires dumb. Apparently no one saw the location of R1 when the infraction occurred so they made a guess which happened to be wrong.
Let's say R1 was only entitled to third base on this play. Because the play should've been kept alive, if R1 tries to score and gets thrown out at the plate, is he out or does he get returned to third base?
Out. If a runner advances beyond that which is awarded/protected, he is in jeopardy of being put out.
What is the mechanic Hernandez is making at 0:11 & 2:28
Defensive/blocking while staying in propper position.
It's called "getting out of the way while MLBers play like Little Leaguers".
What’s the rationale behind the rule against throwing a glove toward the batted ball?
It’s improper use of equipment and trying to gain an unfair advantage.
Equipment which is detached from its proper place or improperly worn is a violation.
Because baseball was born in a bath of silly rules
@@dereksimmons5877 your opinion is meaningless. Baseball rules are not silly.
Think of outfielders throwing gloves at balls flying over the fence to prevent home runs...
I’m so glad that you brought this one up. While rarely seen at a high level, umpires will see this at lower level high school and youth leagues. Unfortunately it’s just obscure enough that umpires will get this wrong
It would be hilarious if they extended the rule to home runs, so you can throw your glove in the air to block it to stick the player on 3rd. That may be a rule to draw in new audiences :)
It's already covered in the rules, and it's a home run. Rule 5.06(b)(4)(A) reads, “Each runner, including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out advance to home base…if a fair ball which, in the umpire’s judgment, would have gone out of the playing field in flight, is deflected by the act of a fielder in throwing his glove, cap, or any article of his apparel.”
@@teebob21 I mean the rule covered here.
@@JackmeriusTacktheratrix7 Why would they amend 5.06(b) to contradict itself? These are all part of the same rule. Have you seen the inside of the rulebook before?
Here, I'll paste the rest of it for you to include the part about home runs that Lindsay left out because it was irrelevant to this video:
5.06(b)(4) Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance:
(A) To home base, scoring a run, if a fair ball goes out of the playing field in flight and he touched all bases legally; or if a fair ball which, in the umpire’s judgment, would have gone out of the playing field in flight, is deflected by the act of a fielder in throwing his glove, cap, or any article of his apparel;
(B) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a fair ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril;
(C) Three bases, if a fielder deliberately throws his glove at and touches a fair ball. The ball is in play and the batter may advance to home base at his peril;
(D) Two bases, if a fielder deliberately touches a thrown ball with his cap, mask or any part of his uniform detached from its proper place on his person. The ball is in play;
(rule continues....but I'm sure you get the point)
@@teebob21 it's a joke. Reading comprehension, and context. They're important.
@@teebob21Wouldn't it be funny if... and yes, it would.
I would think the players should know that rule.
How do you get to major league level without knowing that? Better be a strong discussion in the clubhouse afterward.
I know this is crazy, but maybe he used the rule to his advantage? The RF didn't cheat up to back up the throw, runners may have made it farther if he didn't throw the glove.
Players never know the rules.
@@teebob21 in all fairness, most of the umpires also don't know all the rules
@@mptr1783 Absolutely true, but at least we know _most_ of them. I'd just be happy if players learned _some_ of the rules, instead of relying on rule myths.
2bases?.. Runner on third.. Lemme know, can’t watch now..
that is one really really really stupid rule. does someone actually think this makes sense.?
Throwing the glove to knock down the ball is a good idea. 😂
No, it's not a good idea. It will almost always result in runners advancing to bases they would not have otherwise reached.
BENCH the pitcher for throwing a fit in the middle of a play!!!
That's not how it works in Big Boy Ball.
@@teebob21 Big Boy ball 🤣
Angle can’t be blamed? He’s over there just dancing around…
His responsibility on the play is to see the batter-runner touch first base. He was trying to see that and avoid the thrown ball. Save your bashing of Angel when he actually does something wrong.
@@alanhess9306 Don't worry, it won't take long.
@@PapaVanTwee5the Angel bashing is old, tired, and childish.
@@rayray4192 Dude is 94th of a possible 94 in behind the plate accuracy this year. Until the guy stops being a joke as an ump, I'll stop telling the joke.
That said, as a person I think he's a pretty nice guy judging by the interactions I've seen of him in the game.
@@PapaVanTwee5 Like I said, save the bashing for when he is wrong. You'll have plenty of chances, right? It seems rather lame of you to bash him in a video where he did nothing wrong.
All right I’m not going to watch this reel but I believe throwing your equipment is an automatic triple. That was the question on the back of a baseball card.
Watch and learn the correct answer.
I did watch and learned I’m 1/2 right@@mph7282
yeah, don't watch the reel, you might learn something. 3 bases on a BATTED ball...........2 bases on a THROWN ball
What a mess. Hernadez misses a call right in front of him on a wildly thrown ball, 2nd base misses it as well, 3rd base sees it but calls it wrong and only home plate gets it properly right and then they have to do a rules review, and get the awards wrong?
On the "15 seconds limit" how can you do a challenge after the conclusion of a play if the umpires take longer than that to make their calls? The commentary says "they just gave" right as the manager comes out. Surely the challenge can only happen after the decision by the officials?
And of course, the final hilarity, the constant problem in baseball rules, where the exact same thing (throwing a glove and hitting the ball) has different sanctions. If it were me I'd just say that any thrown glove hitting a ball from a fielder at any point is an instant dead ball & play nullified, award all runners 3 bases.
Wrong. Hernandez had the responsibility to see the runner touch first, among other things. So did U2. The only thing done wrong here was Libka holding his arm up and the crew holding R1 at 3rd.
He wasn't calling time. He had only one hand in the air and was signaling two bases.
That's the signal for a two-base dead ball award. The mechanic used by Libka was incorrect.
An umpire doesn't signal base awards while the ball is live. That is done when the play is over.
If the glove or anypert of the fielders uniform becomes detached & touches the ball ( i.e. glove cap shoe jersey) it would be 3 basses, but as it didn't touch the ball it's 2.
Uh... it did touch the ball, and as the rules on screen and video made explicitly clear for a thrown ball that's two bases. If it did not touch the ball it would be no violation.
No, that is not correct. It would be two bases if a detached glove hits a thrown ball. If the detached glove does not touch the ball, it is not a violation, no bases would be awarded.
No. Watch the video and learn the rule.
no, it did hit the ball........if a thrown glove doesnt touch the ball, theres no penalty
May suggest that the commentator for CCS get a hairstyle that pulls her hair away from her face. Every time you see her face her hair closes in.... not a good look.