Thank you most sincerely, Tom, for your heartfelt devotion to sharing Dante's masterpiece. My Italian husband of 34 years often quoted Dante's Divina Commedia and I feel somehow, now that he is gone, that my study of it will give me a deeper understanding of why it played such an important part in his life. An intermediate student of Italian, it is beneficial for me to actually hear the Italian, so I am grateful for your Italian recitations along the way.
Thank you Viktoria, your comment means a lot to me! The Divine Comedy has the ability to contain the universe, and therefore our individual lives as well. This crazy project of mine is still under way, I am now at Canto 16 of Paradiso, and will finish in about 2 months.
Boy I'm loving this exploration of pride ....it's really made me think about myself ...the image he uses has made me think about how pride stops you looking up or around , how narrowing it is . Line 25 in Lombardo says " praying thus for their deliverance and ours ". I love illuminated manuscripts too . I poured over a small Book of the Hours for much of my childhood ...
It’s the 4th re-read for me and the same thing is happening - again - to me. It means that even when I think I’ve understood the point about pride, I really haven’t …
Thanks for you commentaries I’m reading Anthony Esolen’s translation. When you discuss the original Italian it’s interesting to see how each translator chooses to interpret it. In line 95 for “cima dura” Esolen writes “How short a day the crown remains in leaf”. He’s referring to the laurel and the forehead that you mentioned was a possible translation Also in line 105 he preserves the literal baby talk but it was helpful to hear what the Italian words were for the baby talk. Really enjoying your discussions. Thank you!
Thanks Johanna - I also love Anthony Esolen’s translation, I bought it only a few months ago and it’s really one of the best I have. In my videos on Purgatorio I tried to include more references to the Italian, and for Paradiso even more, since the language used by Dante is more elevated and full of latinisms, which possibly makes it even harder to translate. Translating the Comedy is a TOUGH job !! 😂
Hi Tom--Could you comment on the whole idea of the dead praying for the living? I don't think I've ever heard of that before, but emotionally the idea of mutual good wishes is very powerful.
Hi Jon! It’s a very interesting point, and in terms of catholic doctrine it was confirmed by the Council of Trento (I am originally from Trento, by the way) which said that catholics can benefit from the “intercession of saints”, where by “saints” they meant every soul in heaven. So yes, this idea of a mutual exchange of energy and good wishes is present in the doctrine, and it’s sometimes represented by Dante in Purgatorio, even if it’s often the dead who ask Dante for prayers.
The idea of Pride as self-centeredness is useful and apt. Even in my lowest moments when I think of all my errors I can snap out of it and say: "get over yourself," and move on to do something useful. That book about the origins of the conception of Purgatory sounds interesting.
Such a great point. In fact, they say that one of the best ways to get out of a moment of anger or even depression is to do an act of charity, even a small one, which is the equivalent of moving the magnetic pull from yourself to ‘outside yourself’.
I love illuminated manuscripts too, though I'll probably never be able to afford any but a book of hours or Psalter unless I become a millionaire or find a very generous, rich friend. There are so many beautiful details, and no two are the same. The lines about fleeting fame remind me of some of the lines in U'Netaneh Tokef, one of the most famous prayers of the High Holy Days liturgy. It talks about how we're nothing but a broken shard, dry grass, a withered flower, a passing shadow, a vanishing cloud, the breeze that blows away, dust that scatters, and the dream that flies away. Those lines in turn remind me of the song "All Things Must Pass." We can't be too prideful of ourselves when we reflect on how quickly fortunes can change, and how insignificant we are in the grand scheme.
That’s so beautiful - thank you for sharing 🙏🏻 What’s difficult is putting this into action every day, when we carry with ourselves a certain biology that sometimes seems to necessitate pride in order to function. At least I’m talking for myself. It’s a very hard road, and not very crowded! p.s. I also would love to have that rich + generous friend : ) this canto made me search for recent books about illuminated manuscripts, and there are some within the $40/$60 range that seem to be really good , even though with photos of course, not the originals. I’ll let you know if I find a good one.
The extended version of the Lord's Prayer at the start of this canto is rather beautiful, especially as they are praying for the living rather than themselves. Kirkpatrick gives us "God speed" in line 25 which offers a sensible meaning at least. Thank you for the images you found for us this time. I find the idea of Giotto being Dante's contemporary and the latest thing brings Dante somehow closer to me. Visiting the Scrovegni Chapel is one of my most treasured memories. The idea of pride in one's hard won artistic achievements being such a sin is troubling for me. But Dante is definitely wise to practise that bent over posture as he should definitely end up on this terrace. I liked the images of fame like a gust of wind or grass that grows then withers.
That’s great that you visited the Scrovegni Chapel! Sounds like you’ve been visiting Italy up and down !! (as one should!) I love Giotto and I’ve always loved trying to imagine how that gold of his paintings , and also of miniatures, would stand out in your eyes in the candle light , in a world without electricity. No movie can convey that impression properly, we can only try to picture it in our mind. Also, to clarify, Dante and christian doctrine do not consider artistic achievement as a sin, or even artistic ambitions in general. The call to greatness is always inspired by God. What Dante is highlighting here is the sinfulness of clinging to fame as if it was something that has a value in itself. Sorry if I wasn’t too clear about this point! In fact, thanks for making me think about this: I see now where that point might be unclear even in the text - where Oderisi talks about “excellence”. That should be read as the sinful “obsession with being the first and better than any other man” rather than the God-given “drive to greatness”. Hope you’re having a good weekend. Still hot in L.A., no surprise there.
@@tomlabooks3263 thanks. That makes sense about chasing fame rather excellence being the problematic behaviour. I have been lucky in being able to visit Italy a few times over the years. As a child I was captivated by Italian history and art and determined to get to see it for myself when I was older. It was the first place I visited independently as a young adult. Gubbio was a treat as you say 😀
Grazie Sabrina! I will have the privilege to interview the author of the “Spiritual Direction from Dante” books on my channel in a few weeks… stay tuned : )
Loving the illuminated manuscripts! Incredible artworks. Btw. the passage about Giotto and Cimabue made me a bit thoughtful, as they are still very famous and appreciated artists today - in some ways even more widely than in their own time. And, Dante's fame is still mostly unsurpassed seven hundred years later. But maybe that's still contained in the "What are ten centuries to eternity?". Need to ponder this topic more!!
@@tomlabooks3263 Very interesting, your response opened up a whole new thought and perspective! Dante was also looking at a big past and knew very well that Ovid and Virgil had lasted for over a thousand years - or Homer for over two thousand years at the time of Dante's writing. So the fame as a "gust of wind" might be in the eternal perspective of the Heavens. If so, it's a very big thought!
i do like the physicality of kirkpatrick's roar as opposed to the abstraction of worldly renown...will seriously consider buying the pearson on purgatory...thanks tom.
Longfellow translates line 25 as "Thus for themselves and us good furtherance", while Hollander translates it as "Thus praying for safe haven for themselves and us". Longfellow's translation of line 100 is rather odd, "Naught is this mundane rumour but a breath". Hollander's is in my opinion more understandable, "Worldly fame is nothing but a gust of wind". I'm glad I picked up the Hollander translation, it also includes the Hollander commentary provided by the Dartmouth College Dante Lab. Great discussion as always!
They are! I understand they are based on an actual series of spiritual direction sessions that Fr. Pearson organized. Since I know you don't have any new book to read, you should get these : ))
In my book there’s a footnote on the Italian side that says ramogna = good wishes; but then the line is translated as “offering prayers for their and our success.”
A great look at all the ways pride can and has been historically manifested. The carrying on their backs of huge slabs of rock is a powerful visual of Dante. I have Robert M. Durling's translation with notes by him and R.L. Martinez.
@@tomlabooks3263 I like the translation but I am not any way a speaker or reader of the language. What is superb are the notes to each Canto and the thirty-six pages of notes at the end e.g. The Terrace of Pride:ii. the theme of art etc and the 26 pages of bibliography, all in all a great value and I was lucky to get a used copy very cheaply through the usual sources.
Algo que relaciona este canto con san Francisco de Asís también es la primera palabra de la respuesta de Oderisi: Hermano; "Frate". Es muy conocida la idea de san Francisco de predicarle a los peces y a los pájaros, en que todo es una comunión con Dios, pues Dios no está circunscrito a ellos "non circunscritto", sino en todas partes. Una esfera cuyo centro es en todas partes y cuya circunferencia o límite en ninguna. Something that also relates this canto with san Francesco d'Assisi is the first word of Orderisi's response: Brother; "Frate". It's known the idea of Francesco to preach the gospel to fishes or birds, because everything is a communion with and in God, 'cause God is "non circunscritto" to the heavens, He is everywhere. A sphere which center is everywhere and its circumpherence is nowhere.
I spent lots of time searching the internet market of rosaries, illuminated family Bibles. I found facsimile manuscripts/Bibles to be the best option. Sure it's not cheap but I will strive to buy one someday. No hurry though as I can't decypher a word. 😂
😂😂 yes I have a family Bible with the old language and it’s a shame because it’s often stopped me from picking it up. I usually read the Italian version.
The first time I saw this, I went down a rabbit hole if illuminated manuscripts, and never came back haha. 🤣 I do like that idea of passing on from one great poet to the next--I have heard something similar to this somewhere else, but can't put my finger on it.
Oh , I completely understand you. Sometimes I find myself envying academics and researchers who have access to those medieval illuminated manuscripts. Imagine being in one of those dark candle-lit rooms, opening up a manuscript and see the gold of the miniatures reflect all around the flickering light of the candle. I think that’s the world that Dante lived in for most of his life.
Thank you most sincerely, Tom, for your heartfelt devotion to sharing Dante's masterpiece. My Italian husband of 34 years often quoted Dante's Divina Commedia and I feel somehow, now that he is gone, that my study of it will give me a deeper understanding of why it played such an important part in his life. An intermediate student of Italian, it is beneficial for me to actually hear the Italian, so I am grateful for your Italian recitations along the way.
Thank you Viktoria, your comment means a lot to me! The Divine Comedy has the ability to contain the universe, and therefore our individual lives as well.
This crazy project of mine is still under way, I am now at Canto 16 of Paradiso, and will finish in about 2 months.
Boy I'm loving this exploration of pride ....it's really made me think about myself ...the image he uses has made me think about how pride stops you looking up or around , how narrowing it is . Line 25 in Lombardo says " praying thus for their deliverance and ours ". I love illuminated manuscripts too . I poured over a small Book of the Hours for much of my childhood ...
It’s the 4th re-read for me and the same thing is happening - again - to me. It means that even when I think I’ve understood the point about pride, I really haven’t …
Thanks for you commentaries
I’m reading Anthony Esolen’s translation. When you discuss the original Italian it’s interesting to see how each translator chooses to interpret it. In line 95 for “cima dura” Esolen writes “How short a day the crown remains in leaf”. He’s referring to the laurel and the forehead that you mentioned was a possible translation
Also in line 105 he preserves the literal baby talk but it was helpful to hear what the Italian words were for the baby talk.
Really enjoying your discussions. Thank you!
Thanks Johanna - I also love Anthony Esolen’s translation, I bought it only a few months ago and it’s really one of the best I have. In my videos on Purgatorio I tried to include more references to the Italian, and for Paradiso even more, since the language used by Dante is more elevated and full of latinisms, which possibly makes it even harder to translate. Translating the Comedy is a TOUGH job !! 😂
Hi Tom--Could you comment on the whole idea of the dead praying for the living? I don't think I've ever heard of that before, but emotionally the idea of mutual good wishes is very powerful.
Hi Jon! It’s a very interesting point, and in terms of catholic doctrine it was confirmed by the Council of Trento (I am originally from Trento, by the way) which said that catholics can benefit from the “intercession of saints”, where by “saints” they meant every soul in heaven. So yes, this idea of a mutual exchange of energy and good wishes is present in the doctrine, and it’s sometimes represented by Dante in Purgatorio, even if it’s often the dead who ask Dante for prayers.
The idea of Pride as self-centeredness is useful and apt. Even in my lowest moments when I think of all my errors I can snap out of it and say: "get over yourself," and move on to do something useful. That book about the origins of the conception of Purgatory sounds interesting.
Such a great point. In fact, they say that one of the best ways to get out of a moment of anger or even depression is to do an act of charity, even a small one, which is the equivalent of moving the magnetic pull from yourself to ‘outside yourself’.
I love illuminated manuscripts too, though I'll probably never be able to afford any but a book of hours or Psalter unless I become a millionaire or find a very generous, rich friend. There are so many beautiful details, and no two are the same.
The lines about fleeting fame remind me of some of the lines in U'Netaneh Tokef, one of the most famous prayers of the High Holy Days liturgy. It talks about how we're nothing but a broken shard, dry grass, a withered flower, a passing shadow, a vanishing cloud, the breeze that blows away, dust that scatters, and the dream that flies away. Those lines in turn remind me of the song "All Things Must Pass." We can't be too prideful of ourselves when we reflect on how quickly fortunes can change, and how insignificant we are in the grand scheme.
That’s so beautiful - thank you for sharing 🙏🏻 What’s difficult is putting this into action every day, when we carry with ourselves a certain biology that sometimes seems to necessitate pride in order to function. At least I’m talking for myself. It’s a very hard road, and not very crowded!
p.s. I also would love to have that rich + generous friend : ) this canto made me search for recent books about illuminated manuscripts, and there are some within the $40/$60 range that seem to be really good , even though with photos of course, not the originals. I’ll let you know if I find a good one.
The extended version of the Lord's Prayer at the start of this canto is rather beautiful, especially as they are praying for the living rather than themselves.
Kirkpatrick gives us "God speed" in line 25 which offers a sensible meaning at least.
Thank you for the images you found for us this time. I find the idea of Giotto being Dante's contemporary and the latest thing brings Dante somehow closer to me. Visiting the Scrovegni Chapel is one of my most treasured memories. The idea of pride in one's hard won artistic achievements being such a sin is troubling for me. But Dante is definitely wise to practise that bent over posture as he should definitely end up on this terrace.
I liked the images of fame like a gust of wind or grass that grows then withers.
That’s great that you visited the Scrovegni Chapel! Sounds like you’ve been visiting Italy up and down !! (as one should!) I love Giotto and I’ve always loved trying to imagine how that gold of his paintings , and also of miniatures, would stand out in your eyes in the candle light , in a world without electricity. No movie can convey that impression properly, we can only try to picture it in our mind.
Also, to clarify, Dante and christian doctrine do not consider artistic achievement as a sin, or even artistic ambitions in general. The call to greatness is always inspired by God. What Dante is highlighting here is the sinfulness of clinging to fame as if it was something that has a value in itself. Sorry if I wasn’t too clear about this point!
In fact, thanks for making me think about this: I see now where that point might be unclear even in the text - where Oderisi talks about “excellence”. That should be read as the sinful “obsession with being the first and better than any other man” rather than the God-given “drive to greatness”.
Hope you’re having a good weekend. Still hot in L.A., no surprise there.
@@tomlabooks3263 thanks. That makes sense about chasing fame rather excellence being the problematic behaviour.
I have been lucky in being able to visit Italy a few times over the years. As a child I was captivated by Italian history and art and determined to get to see it for myself when I was older. It was the first place I visited independently as a young adult.
Gubbio was a treat as you say 😀
The illuminations are indeed something that leaves me in awe for those artists.
Thank you for the book suggestions!
They way you’ve been pulling the Italian, history, and ideas together is great! 👍🏼
Grazie Sabrina! I will have the privilege to interview the author of the “Spiritual Direction from Dante” books on my channel in a few weeks… stay tuned : )
Loving the illuminated manuscripts! Incredible artworks. Btw. the passage about Giotto and Cimabue made me a bit thoughtful, as they are still very famous and appreciated artists today - in some ways even more widely than in their own time. And, Dante's fame is still mostly unsurpassed seven hundred years later. But maybe that's still contained in the "What are ten centuries to eternity?". Need to ponder this topic more!!
Hi Richard, I had not made that connection, but it makes a lot of sense. I’m inclined to think he did intend to connect those two parts conceptually.
@@tomlabooks3263 Very interesting, your response opened up a whole new thought and perspective! Dante was also looking at a big past and knew very well that Ovid and Virgil had lasted for over a thousand years - or Homer for over two thousand years at the time of Dante's writing. So the fame as a "gust of wind" might be in the eternal perspective of the Heavens. If so, it's a very big thought!
i do like the physicality of kirkpatrick's roar as opposed to the abstraction of worldly renown...will seriously consider buying the pearson on purgatory...thanks tom.
Love your exposition, thanks.
Thanks for your interest 🙏🏻
Longfellow translates line 25 as "Thus for themselves and us good furtherance", while Hollander translates it as "Thus praying for safe haven for themselves and us". Longfellow's translation of line 100 is rather odd, "Naught is this mundane rumour but a breath". Hollander's is in my opinion more understandable, "Worldly fame is nothing but a gust of wind". I'm glad I picked up the Hollander translation, it also includes the Hollander commentary provided by the Dartmouth College Dante Lab. Great discussion as always!
Oh that’s interesting to hear. I think Longfellow tends to be a little redundant and clunky… Hollander has GREAT commentary!
Ohhh! Those books of spiritual directions seem amazing!
They are! I understand they are based on an actual series of spiritual direction sessions that Fr. Pearson organized. Since I know you don't have any new book to read, you should get these : ))
@@tomlabooks3263 I don’t know that I should because I need to eat, unfortunately, but I’m going to get them as soon as I can afford them.
@@knittingbooksetc.2810 I just re-read this and it made me laugh again 😄
@@tomlabooks3263 😂
In my book there’s a footnote on the Italian side that says ramogna = good wishes; but then the line is translated as “offering prayers for their and our success.”
Thanks Christina that's interesting. I was wondering if "ramogna" might sound like any word at all in Portuguese?
@@tomlabooks3263 I was trying to find it but the closest I got was “ramona”, which is an informal word for the police cars that take people to prison.
@@knittingbooksetc.2810 😂😂 Probably not what Dante had in mind then. But you never know!
A great look at all the ways pride can and has been historically manifested. The carrying on their backs of huge slabs of rock is a powerful visual of Dante. I have Robert M. Durling's translation with notes by him and R.L. Martinez.
Thanks for watching! What do you think about Durling’s translation?
@@tomlabooks3263 I like the translation but I am not any way a speaker or reader of the language. What is superb are the notes to each Canto and the thirty-six pages of notes at the end e.g. The Terrace of Pride:ii. the theme of art etc and the 26 pages of bibliography, all in all a great value and I was lucky to get a used copy very cheaply through the usual sources.
@@artiesolomon3292 That’s excellent! Sounds like a great find.
Algo que relaciona este canto con san Francisco de Asís también es la primera palabra de la respuesta de Oderisi: Hermano; "Frate". Es muy conocida la idea de san Francisco de predicarle a los peces y a los pájaros, en que todo es una comunión con Dios, pues Dios no está circunscrito a ellos "non circunscritto", sino en todas partes. Una esfera cuyo centro es en todas partes y cuya circunferencia o límite en ninguna.
Something that also relates this canto with san Francesco d'Assisi is the first word of Orderisi's response: Brother; "Frate". It's known the idea of Francesco to preach the gospel to fishes or birds, because everything is a communion with and in God, 'cause God is "non circunscritto" to the heavens, He is everywhere. A sphere which center is everywhere and its circumpherence is nowhere.
I spent lots of time searching the internet market of rosaries, illuminated family Bibles. I found facsimile manuscripts/Bibles to be the best option. Sure it's not cheap but I will strive to buy one someday. No hurry though as I can't decypher a word. 😂
😂😂 yes I have a family Bible with the old language and it’s a shame because it’s often stopped me from picking it up. I usually read the Italian version.
The first time I saw this, I went down a rabbit hole if illuminated manuscripts, and never came back haha. 🤣 I do like that idea of passing on from one great poet to the next--I have heard something similar to this somewhere else, but can't put my finger on it.
Oh , I completely understand you. Sometimes I find myself envying academics and researchers who have access to those medieval illuminated manuscripts. Imagine being in one of those dark candle-lit rooms, opening up a manuscript and see the gold of the miniatures reflect all around the flickering light of the candle. I think that’s the world that Dante lived in for most of his life.
@@tomlabooks3263 That really would be something else. I wouldn't mind living in that world as well, haha.