As I've gotten older and valued my time more, I've found it more difficult to play grindy or difficult games as I always find myself asking what I'm doing with my life and if I should be doing something more creative.
I think we've simply matured in our taste. My co-workers have transitioned from Halo and CS to RPG games including FPS RPGs as they got kids and grew up. They're both more meaningful and (depending on the RPG) more interesting to play when you sit down for 2-3 hours a week.
I’m a young teen, who has a time limit set by parents. My thinking is pretty much “I have only a couple hours to play games, so why am I playing something that is about as entertaining as school work.”
Grinding for me should be a small aspect that feels rewarding AND is challenging. The problem is when grinding in games is super easy and it just feels repetetive and annoying. A perfect example is Red dead redemption 2. To make tonics you have ot go through this overly long process that takes like 10 seconds PER tonic. Instead they should've made it so u choose how many u want to make and then do the animation once.
@@Account-ez9px Exactly. Like look at the witcher 3. Their "grind" is basically side quests. But they made the side quests interesting and made it feel fun and not like a chore. Sadly few games replicate this.
I wouldn't consider this a grind, but bad design. Is it a grind to open my menu and equip the new weapon I just got? The problem comes down to if I have to open my item bag, take the equipment, take it to my character page, and put it on. Pointless steps which aren't even a grind but just being a lazy developer.
There is an old engineering problem wherein a gear has one damaged tooth. If this tooth interlocks with the same root repeatedly then both gears will grind to a halt. Instead we ensure that the damaged tooth meshes with every tooth on the other gear. That way wear is spread evenly, and the gears last longer. I think games work this way as well; if a feature only interacts with the rest of the game in one or two ways then it will quickly become wearisome. Take the example of grinding for stone in Minecraft. Despite its monotony, we enjoy it because not only does it give us stone for building, it gives us resources for progression, and there is a chance of caves for exploration. In a moment we can transfer to any of of the core gameplay experiences of Minecraft. On the other hand we have grinding in Pokemon. In pokemon, grinding only meaningfully interacts with leveling progression. There isn't anything to explore, strategize, or role play with. But that could be changed. If, for example, Pokemon got greater Xp for defeating pokemon they hadn't encountered before. Interest is generated. Suddenly, the player is interacting with the whole game. They're going to new and old areas (exploration), giving their pokemon a proper journey (role play), and there's another layer to optimize (strategy).
I don't really agree. I don't think 'grinding for stone' for hours would be that fun. It helps that it's broken up. But I think you're missing a key component here and that's just how engaging and involved mining for stone usually is in Minecraft because you're carving out your own mine. You're constantly interacting with so many systems and engaging your brain in some many ways simultaneously. Role playing by definition requires active participation. Pokemon as we know it could never engage players in role playing. Your changes don't completely and fundamentally change Pokemon and therefore fail in the same way the vanilla games do in engaging players to role play. Contrast Pokemon with baldur's gate 3.
I'm so glad most strategy games lack grinding, like in Stellaris for example, everything is important, from the 3 minerals you need to fill one planet's deficit to the 5 mineral system, that you have to wit for 5 more influence to build an outpost in. The only 'grind' is the hour counter on steam.
@@CarrotConsumer the beginning is one of the more tedious parts, but i hardly find it really grindy, more of suspenseful, with every system you explore you expect more and more for it to be claimed already, or another beast blocking your hyperlanes. If you really get in to the RP part of it, it's great fun albeit slow. The 2250s to 2350s are when the game really heats up and loses that slow tedious feeling. In some ways you can compare it to CK II. When you strip both down to the core components it's grindy, as you rise higher with each Royal generation, waiting for the clock to tick and resources roll in. But it's the story that makes the true game. The events, the Ethics, the diplomacy, and the war. Sorry if im rambling.
I feel like skyblock just becomes more grindy the later on in the game you are, like in the beggining it was so fun getting that lapis armor but the more you progress in the game, the more money rules.
I absolutely ADORE grinding in games. Even the mindless kind of grinding is satisfying for me. I spend hours grinding in JRPGs and something clicks in my monke brain when I see a stat number go up, and suddenly I can kill enemies slightly faster. I'm the min-maxing builder, exploit user, grinder type of player. If I can abuse a system and become extremely overpowered then I'm fecking doing it and it doesn't take away from the fun aspect of the games at all. In fact, I would say that I have the most fun with games that let me do that. Which is why I love Dark Sou-
on one hand, monster hunter world, where I can hunt a giant dragon with a lion's face that also has explosive scales and flies around dropping said scales like a WW2 bomber plane using a giant axe 2x my size that can transform into a sword 2.5x my size that explodes with each swing while my feline helper throws molotovs around using hawaiian clothes and bonking the monster's head with a vuvuzela... on the other, in albion online, I have to kill 200 animals to get pieces of leather so I can level up my skills so I can kill more animals to get 600 pieces of leather but with a different color OR pay subscriptions to instead only kill 50 animals ._.
Grinding give purpose to continue to play, it hold your goal that you're aiming for. And when love game ascetics, music, animation, mechanics of it - you expanding your time with the game you love. It felt like you living in that world with all other characters, mobs and players. When there is no goal you will get bored of the game very fast. Different types of grind kept a lot of goals and reason to continue. You do feel proud when you reach a goal that you worked for. This especially true for multiplayer where everyone else do the same and you show or compare your progression with others. I never felt bored of Runescape, despite I played this game for 6-7years almost everyday. I still had so much things to do and achieve. I always had things to do and when I get bored of repeating one task, I move to another skill to train or go fighting monsters for loot, play various minigames, do quests, trading, talking with other players or just goofing around. All that supplement with the grind. It felt natural and engaging. But there is a huge problem when new game business practise introduced (which is unethical and shouldn't have existed) in the game when people can BUY progression, items, resources. It feels unfair and counter competitive, selfish, diminish your efforts when someone can just buy they way. If some players don't like grind and have patience of 5 years old with "I want it now!" mentality - they should play other games that suit them better or just focus on things they enjoy in this game. I quit Runescape not because one day I felt it repetitive , but because of gameplay changes, pay2win micro transactions, entire combat system change , graphical changes, extreme simplification of skill xp gaining.
I understand what you're saying in your first paragraph but that's not for everyone and not how EVERY game should be designed. A lot of games aren't about dangling the promise of rewards in front of players and asking them to 'earn' them through repeated, tedious, repetitious activity.
One of the reasons a lot of people prefer Xenoblade to other JRPG’s is because it negates the need for grinding because you can just do side quests to get experience.
Exactly this is true. For my first playthrough on N3DS, I literally overleveled my whole party just by doing side quests all the time. Fighting the final boss was super easy for me too. Even though it was insane I was level 99, it sucked cause I didn't had much of a challenge and took him down easily. Luckily the Switch version of the game fixes this issue with Expert Mode
The comparison between Monster Hunter and OSRS is pretty interesting as I really enjoy both games. I like the MMO and update aspects of RuneScape whilst I like the multiplayer aspects of Monster Hunter too. I find the grind in MH more satisfying as it tends to be less repetitive because of the more active/engaging gameplay. Although some of the newer stuff like looking for rare endemic life in MHW is arguably no less grindy than grinding for a pet drop in OSRS. A full scale comparison of the two would be really cool tbh.
I think when it comes to games like Terraria, Minecraft etc, we as humans enjoy collecting and mining for things in them because it’s a primal instinct. To forage and hunt and collect things we see as useful or valuable are something that is ingrained deep within us because without it we never would’ve foraged for food or saved resources for hard times.
Black Desert Online is a great case study. Grinding can be fun if you enjoy the combat but it gradually loses its fun aspect as the game most of the time either gives you no reward or even worse punishes you for all the hard work. Yet, it still incentivises you to keep grinding for the *chance of a reward*. When you take a step back and look at it from a third point of view you realise the only thing you're consistently increasing is your playtime. BDO is not the only game that does this, and it's probably not the worst but this is another way game makers use grinding, not for the players, but for themselves. Additionally, some of these games, will offer you the ability to skip this hurdle: now you don't have to grind for a chance of a reward. You can pay us real money for the chance of a reward, or even better, you can pay us real money and we'll give you the reward.
Grinding games that shake it up are some of favorite games, in ARK, you have to go new places and do new things if you want to progress instead of staying in the same city and mindlessly thwacking at a resource or enemy for xp and mats. Grinding games that go places are the most fun and engaging games I've played.
Is... is that crosscode music? I love you now. Also, imo, if it FEELS like grinding, its done badly. Rust did it amazingly. Farming anything is quick and easy, just hit something a maximum of 8 times if you have the worst gathering tool in the game, the rock, or hit it like a machine gun with the best gathering tools, chainsaws and (the other machine thingy that i forgot, but can destroy metal nodes really fast), it only takes like 10 seconds, and it gives you enough for most things. For a small base, you dont need to farm more than 5 big trees.
The big difference in grinding in games vs real life is that in games most times we are fully invested in what we receive while I for example don't get a lot of joy from receiving money anymore
20 year experienced runescaper here, the early to mid game content is pretty boring, click and wait type of gameplay.. but the end game content raids and bosses, and the PVP scene is INSANELY complex and has an near endless skill ceiling. there is no limit to how diffcult and engaging they can make newer content. but yea experienced player like myself can skip the early to mid game content within a few days of grinding where a newbie would be grinding for weeks or even months. i could do certain bosses with minimal gear and stats because i mastered the game mechanics. nobody with experience spends their time killing cows XD
Grinding is okay to an extent. You need to have some sort of progression system. But once it gets too tedious and long it ends up feeling like a job or a chore. Switching to PC is a great investment since you can use trainers mods and save files to avoid the grind and just jump in and have a good time.
Rather not play a game that's not engaging or "starts getting good about 100 hours in (Sometimes that's generous)", I just become so consciously aware I'm sitting in a chair doing nothing while I could do some kind of grind *_IRL_* and get paid for it.
To be honest, this video was very interesting because I have got bored of grinding on video games lately especially GTA 5. But after watching this video, I realised that grinding is working for a reward like building something on minecraft in survival or making money for a car on GTA 5 and it can be enjoyable if you want the reward you deserve. I think the reason why I got bored of grinding is because I treated it as a second job, or I been grinding for the wrong things or things I didn’t want or need.
Grinding in video games is like books and they are both the same thing for delayed gratification since nothing else is in life in our 2023 Ash remcow190 world saying this on a Dave video lmao
btw Davo you should check out Battle Bros it's on sale on steam right now it's like Mount and Blade Tactics; it feels like Mount and Blade plus Mordheim but with hex-tactics battles
@@CarrotConsumer well eveeyone wants to EARN skins so if you want to earn them you have to ACTUALLY PLAY a bit and if u don't play a lot you will have less skins but will also need less so...
I think another thing to add for grinding is for it to have stakes. Like, big chance you'll die and lose all your stuff if you grind for shulker boxes in Minecraft. Idk maybe that's all I can add
@davo_ I don't agree that grinding is an 'aspect of RPGs'. I think it's more common in loot focused hack'n Slash games, MMOs, 'JRPGs' and competitive online games.
Grinding means it's time to mute the in game sound, take your shirt off, and turn on that Hard Trance EDM Playlist because dammit, I need my 90G to pay for my mount and I'm just a simple Warrior.
Monster Hunter is the perfect example of how to do grinding right, because the game has no lv up system you can't simply bulldoze everything in your path when you finally get some sweet OP gear so your own skill will always be what matters the most in the game.
If you guys wanna play a game similar to Pokemon but it's actually engaging to grind to evolve your monster, play Digimon Cyber Sleuth instead. You evolve and devolve your monsters and try out other evolutions with certain requirements.
Maybe it's just that Phantasy Star IV is fucking amazing, but a couple weeks ago I hated grinding. My philosophy was, "I should never have to grind in order to finish a game's story", and while I still feel that way a little bit, PSIV's combo system has made me think some more. For instance, using a Zan technique with one character and then a Foi tech with another, if those characters act right after each other, you can do a Firestorm combo. But, none of these combos are explained, so you have to experiment, and grinding is the perfect opportunity. Of course, combos aren't required at all, but they're stupid powerful and you feel awesome when you stumble upon one while just trying to take out powerful enemies with your techniques.
The only grinding I hate in minecraft is enchanting. Seriously, doing several level 1 enchants and disenchants until it finally says something good only to end up with less than 30 levels is fucking irritating and boring. Not to mention how expensive it is to combine armor pieces with each other. Enchanting needs a rework man...
Yeah, had the debate about grinding with friends a while back. My conclusion is that "grinding", in the context of an overly repetitive negative, is only a grind that is required...or feels as such...and the requirement far outweighs the reward. So Minecraft is not a "grinding" game...it's simply a choice of what you want to make with how much work you want to put in. The MOST grindy Minecraft gets is the "realm portals" which, in the grand scheme of things...aren't very hard to get if you just focus on it...and even if you don't focus on it and just end up exploring you may come across a portal anyway or run into the tool you needed anyway. Games like Animal Crossing, aren't grinding games...because while you may need to fish a lot to get all the fish...you can do that at any pace because there is literally ZERO material reason to do so other than a trophy to hang up and a cute museum space that literally nobody cares about, try again next year who gives a fuck. The application of grinding for materials is the same thing, you don't need to have anything to experience all the game has to offer...what you use to express yourself is a choice you make and how willing or necessary it feels to get the new "Seasonal DIYs" really doesn't matter, especially given the "grindy task" is something you can while literally doing anything else, popping balloons. Having the starter house and a few trees is just as legitimate to getting you the new update content or playing with your friends and having a good time as anything else. If anything, the more you grind the less the game has to reward and offer you. I grinded out materials to decorate my island, because it gave me immediate and lasting satisfaction to do so. Meanwhile, games like Black Desert Online say "NO" You can't get a ship yet, you can't access this area of the game, you can't do this dungeon, you can't do X thing yet...because you haven't grinded out your levels...and we specifically designed the game so that you will NEED to do a repetitive task so that you'll drop real money to skip it...or worse, made you compete with no-lifers who ruin the game for everyone. I grinded out in that abandoned castle for 3 days straight until I quit because the game said "if you want this basic feature of the game you bought...you gotta work for it"..and I stopped well before because the work wasn't worth what I thought the reward would be. Same reason I don't like the Monster Hunter World franchise, it gets fuckin boring well before I get to all the content that I paid for...and so there is a certain point I get frustrated and leave...because sorry, killing the same fuckin dragon over and over and over and over again...isn't entertaining after you've mastered it...and they still make you continue. Friends who have more time to grind need to grind in a new region I haven't gotten to yet, and so now I'm not only grinding and doing shit I don't enjoy...I'm actively making my friends do that same shitty content over and over so that we can move on together and do it all over again in a new setting. If they just reduced the limits on moving onto new regions and having access to the content, the game would be a lot more fun....but then you get the try-hards who don't feel a task is worthy unless it requires 200 hours of their life defending the game as if it's their identity.
Hey davo! although i liked the general ideas your present in this video, i felt like the video was a bit unfocused. Perhaps split it into parts or something for a simillar video in the future?
The problem with grinding though is the rng a player should feel rewarded for there intense actions and not feel frustrating thats the one thing i hate about games like monster hunter where rng can feel unfair and the fights still end up feeling more like work. I dont mind fighting the same monster 20 times if i am sure im gonna get the materials i need. In Darksouls 3 grinding is fine when it comes to souls and grind stone but the rng armor drops are frustrating and feels out of place compare to darksouls 1 and demon souls(where armor and weapon drops are very little)
I see the complex grinding to be far worse. Imagine you have to fight a 10 minute dragon fight to get... nothing. You need to fight it 2 more times to get armor and weapons from it despite you proving you can overcome the challenge. It isn't a test of skills nor teaching the player AS YOU JUST WON. It takes which would be a simple grind... and makes it more complex for no benefit to the player other then massively wasting your time in a simple action rather then provide a new or unique challenge or expanding on mechanics. Imagine how bad an traditional JRPG would be if it did this, or any game if it made you beat it 3 times over to then get the ending. It is just so subjective. If a game is going to grind it either needs to accept it and make it for people who like grinding... or balance your game.
I think the problem is encouraging repetitive activities with the promise of rewards. Think about any linear action focused game for example. You're still fighting a lot of the same types of enemies again and again and again, but you're always heading towards progress rather than feeling like you're deliberately repeating something for a chance of a reward.
Have you ever felt the waves of emotions going through your body when you've spent thousands of hours in a game, decided you wanted to risk it all, gambled everything you had in one blow... and got scammed by a bot? Runescape has elicited stronger emotional reactions than any other piece of artistic medium. How dare you sir.
i think that grinding should be: rewarding and chalenge, and should try to upgrade himself through the gameplay so its dont gonna stagnate quickliy Heres a example of bad grinding and good grinding in a game that i love; Terraria. Terraria have the fishing missions that in the most older versions of the game, it was a good way of grinding; you could every day get a fish to the angler and probaly get something cool (or not, in the most part not) or you could fish for a time to get fish weapons and ingredients, but RElogic see that and sayed NOPE fishing in journey end is now nerfed, the fishy weapons are only viable if you wanna past you entire day fishing, DEAL WITH THAT, we also nerfed the strange plants, now they are only in hardmode now. See, the motives of why you should fish or get strange plants now are inexisting, why you would grind this things if you dont have rewards? its now so relevant then golf, the only difference its that the golf goal is be a thing to do simply because you wanna, but the strange plants and fishing are in the same level now, the difference its that getting strange plants and fishing in dangerous places its a lot more harder then golf, you screw yourself for nothing. now the good grinding in terraria is: being rewarded for exploring everything, being rewarded for grinding a boss, being rewarded for making a artificial surface mushroom biome to get a secret material, thats the beauty of grinding, dont do only one thing, have a good reward, dont be boring, and its evolve with the player, if in pre hardmode you farmed queen bees to get bee things, now you farm fishroons, golens, moon events, you have multiple possibilities.
imo monster hunter can be an even worse grind. i quit the series because of grinding. monsters often took 30-50 minutes to kill. then you have to kill them like 8 times to make a full set of armor. then when you finally get the armor you need you can take on even stronger monsters. these stronger monsters also take around 30-50 minutes to kill, but often have the capability of killing you in a single or few hits...So i have to stab away at this thing that can kill me in a single blow for basically up to an hour...and i have to do it like 8 times, or even more in order for me to get enough materials for armor i need to progress... it ends up being a skill based grind that you can actually fail, and end up wasting your time for even bothering sometimes. maybe if you got a more realistic amount of materials from killing the beasts. if i kill a rathalos for example, i should be able to break off whatever pieces i need from its corpse, unless the guild takes a cut too, "but i NEED that rathalos gem..." or nerf the amount of HP these things have, so the grind isnt as bad. kinda unfair it can take an hour to kill them but you can die in a matter of seconds.
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
Some people surpass grinding by "paying for not playing games". I surpass it by not playing such shitty games at all.
some people surpass hurting the environment by using metal instead of plastic straws. I surpass it by not using a fucking straw
@@aramor7645 But what if I clean and reuse the metal straws, much like how one would clean and reuse metal spoons and forks?
@eddmnd You're right and I'm a fucking idiot
@@aramor7645 Sorry for misreading your comment.
@@aramor7645 durr environment
As I've gotten older and valued my time more, I've found it more difficult to play grindy or difficult games as I always find myself asking what I'm doing with my life and if I should be doing something more creative.
I think we've simply matured in our taste. My co-workers have transitioned from Halo and CS to RPG games including FPS RPGs as they got kids and grew up. They're both more meaningful and (depending on the RPG) more interesting to play when you sit down for 2-3 hours a week.
@@ARTEMISXIX Halo isn't grindy if you're playing singleplayer.
@@Orange_Swirl Yeah but you burn through singleplayer in one or two sittings and it's hardly worth full price for that.
I’m a young teen, who has a time limit set by parents. My thinking is pretty much “I have only a couple hours to play games, so why am I playing something that is about as entertaining as school work.”
commented so you get a notification and can come back to this amazing comment you made
Grinding for me should be a small aspect that feels rewarding AND is challenging. The problem is when grinding in games is super easy and it just feels repetetive and annoying. A perfect example is Red dead redemption 2. To make tonics you have ot go through this overly long process that takes like 10 seconds PER tonic. Instead they should've made it so u choose how many u want to make and then do the animation once.
@@Account-ez9px Exactly. Like look at the witcher 3. Their "grind" is basically side quests. But they made the side quests interesting and made it feel fun and not like a chore. Sadly few games replicate this.
I read this and all I can hear in my mind is : "Animal Crossing crafting - Damn it!"
@@Thomas-ic7me Most hand held games live off of this. They're basically just making mobile games for a "console"
I wouldn't consider this a grind, but bad design. Is it a grind to open my menu and equip the new weapon I just got? The problem comes down to if I have to open my item bag, take the equipment, take it to my character page, and put it on. Pointless steps which aren't even a grind but just being a lazy developer.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Yes but in my example it feels similar to a grind. Because you have to do the same thing voer and over.
There is an old engineering problem wherein a gear has one damaged tooth. If this tooth interlocks with the same root repeatedly then both gears will grind to a halt. Instead we ensure that the damaged tooth meshes with every tooth on the other gear. That way wear is spread evenly, and the gears last longer. I think games work this way as well; if a feature only interacts with the rest of the game in one or two ways then it will quickly become wearisome. Take the example of grinding for stone in Minecraft. Despite its monotony, we enjoy it because not only does it give us stone for building, it gives us resources for progression, and there is a chance of caves for exploration. In a moment we can transfer to any of of the core gameplay experiences of Minecraft.
On the other hand we have grinding in Pokemon. In pokemon, grinding only meaningfully interacts with leveling progression. There isn't anything to explore, strategize, or role play with. But that could be changed. If, for example, Pokemon got greater Xp for defeating pokemon they hadn't encountered before. Interest is generated. Suddenly, the player is interacting with the whole game. They're going to new and old areas (exploration), giving their pokemon a proper journey (role play), and there's another layer to optimize (strategy).
I don't really agree. I don't think 'grinding for stone' for hours would be that fun. It helps that it's broken up. But I think you're missing a key component here and that's just how engaging and involved mining for stone usually is in Minecraft because you're carving out your own mine. You're constantly interacting with so many systems and engaging your brain in some many ways simultaneously.
Role playing by definition requires active participation. Pokemon as we know it could never engage players in role playing. Your changes don't completely and fundamentally change Pokemon and therefore fail in the same way the vanilla games do in engaging players to role play. Contrast Pokemon with baldur's gate 3.
I remember grinding about 100 hours for some special characters and then the Devs made all of them free and didn't componsate any of my efforts
Well, I just realized all the games I play are grinders...
What do you mean Bosnia is a real country?
Obligatory comment so that TH-cam™ Algorithm™®© picks up this dude's videos. Remember us when you get to the top Davey boy
I'm so glad most strategy games lack grinding, like in Stellaris for example, everything is important, from the 3 minerals you need to fill one planet's deficit to the 5 mineral system, that you have to wit for 5 more influence to build an outpost in. The only 'grind' is the hour counter on steam.
I find the opening of Stellaris a bit grindy. Just exploration and colonizing gets boring after a few games.
@@CarrotConsumer the beginning is one of the more tedious parts, but i hardly find it really grindy, more of suspenseful, with every system you explore you expect more and more for it to be claimed already, or another beast blocking your hyperlanes. If you really get in to the RP part of it, it's great fun albeit slow. The 2250s to 2350s are when the game really heats up and loses that slow tedious feeling. In some ways you can compare it to CK II. When you strip both down to the core components it's grindy, as you rise higher with each Royal generation, waiting for the clock to tick and resources roll in. But it's the story that makes the true game. The events, the Ethics, the diplomacy, and the war. Sorry if im rambling.
"The player has to be willing to do it" unlike half of hypixel skyblock players
Yeeeah Hypixel Skyblock IS grinding. That's basically the whole game. It gets old fast.
Hypixel sky block was enjoyable before the community went to shit post end update
I feel like skyblock just becomes more grindy the later on in the game you are, like in the beggining it was so fun getting that lapis armor but the more you progress in the game, the more money rules.
Potato war!
I absolutely ADORE grinding in games. Even the mindless kind of grinding is satisfying for me. I spend hours grinding in JRPGs and something clicks in my monke brain when I see a stat number go up, and suddenly I can kill enemies slightly faster. I'm the min-maxing builder, exploit user, grinder type of player. If I can abuse a system and become extremely overpowered then I'm fecking doing it and it doesn't take away from the fun aspect of the games at all. In fact, I would say that I have the most fun with games that let me do that. Which is why I love Dark Sou-
You summed up why I love it in the best way possible.
I was playing runescape while watching this video... :(
haha opened runescape to play on my other monitor just because of the thumbnail, and then he said it sucked..
on one hand, monster hunter world, where I can hunt a giant dragon with a lion's face that also has explosive scales and flies around dropping said scales like a WW2 bomber plane using a giant axe 2x my size that can transform into a sword 2.5x my size that explodes with each swing while my feline helper throws molotovs around using hawaiian clothes and bonking the monster's head with a vuvuzela... on the other, in albion online, I have to kill 200 animals to get pieces of leather so I can level up my skills so I can kill more animals to get 600 pieces of leather but with a different color OR pay subscriptions to instead only kill 50 animals ._.
I made it to t7 woodcutting before inevitably leaving since I don't do pvp so there's no point with me staying
Grinding give purpose to continue to play, it hold your goal that you're aiming for. And when love game ascetics, music, animation, mechanics of it - you expanding your time with the game you love. It felt like you living in that world with all other characters, mobs and players. When there is no goal you will get bored of the game very fast. Different types of grind kept a lot of goals and reason to continue. You do feel proud when you reach a goal that you worked for. This especially true for multiplayer where everyone else do the same and you show or compare your progression with others.
I never felt bored of Runescape, despite I played this game for 6-7years almost everyday. I still had so much things to do and achieve. I always had things to do and when I get bored of repeating one task, I move to another skill to train or go fighting monsters for loot, play various minigames, do quests, trading, talking with other players or just goofing around. All that supplement with the grind. It felt natural and engaging.
But there is a huge problem when new game business practise introduced (which is unethical and shouldn't have existed) in the game when people can BUY progression, items, resources. It feels unfair and counter competitive, selfish, diminish your efforts when someone can just buy they way. If some players don't like grind and have patience of 5 years old with "I want it now!" mentality - they should play other games that suit them better or just focus on things they enjoy in this game.
I quit Runescape not because one day I felt it repetitive , but because of gameplay changes, pay2win micro transactions, entire combat system change , graphical changes, extreme simplification of skill xp gaining.
I'm not saying every game should have grind. Of course no! But for game like Runescape it works very well
I understand what you're saying in your first paragraph but that's not for everyone and not how EVERY game should be designed. A lot of games aren't about dangling the promise of rewards in front of players and asking them to 'earn' them through repeated, tedious, repetitious activity.
My favorite part of this video is when you clicked on the cow.
One of the reasons a lot of people prefer Xenoblade to other JRPG’s is because it negates the need for grinding because you can just do side quests to get experience.
That's not negating it but it is removing a lot of the repetition which is good.
Exactly this is true. For my first playthrough on N3DS, I literally overleveled my whole party just by doing side quests all the time. Fighting the final boss was super easy for me too. Even though it was insane I was level 99, it sucked cause I didn't had much of a challenge and took him down easily. Luckily the Switch version of the game fixes this issue with Expert Mode
Or Chrono Trigger, where no grinding at all is required.
I've noticed that my friends are playing Xenoblade a lot. I should probably get something that can run it some day.
it's cause it's an action RPG, which is more engaging than many other JRPGS
"Runescape sucks"
How dare you.
it does though
I tried to play it, seemed to Grindy and didn’t know what I was doing
@@oodfty3740 it's an aquired taste imo
PhartKnight I can respect that I guess
It was the shit back in the days. Cause of the community.
The comparison between Monster Hunter and OSRS is pretty interesting as I really enjoy both games. I like the MMO and update aspects of RuneScape whilst I like the multiplayer aspects of Monster Hunter too. I find the grind in MH more satisfying as it tends to be less repetitive because of the more active/engaging gameplay. Although some of the newer stuff like looking for rare endemic life in MHW is arguably no less grindy than grinding for a pet drop in OSRS. A full scale comparison of the two would be really cool tbh.
The Chicken Invaders soundtrack at the end got me good
Rockstar’s shittiest practices are just Take Two Interactive, their publisher, forcing them to peddle Shark Cards.
Perhaps
Davo used Runescape in his thumbnail? sign me tf up.
Edit: I just finished the video. How dare you Davo :(
top 10 anime betrayals
davo_ you've got 2 XP for completing this video! 642 points reaining until next level. Keep grinding
Was playing OSRS while watching this video lol. Keep up the great content my man
I think when it comes to games like Terraria, Minecraft etc, we as humans enjoy collecting and mining for things in them because it’s a primal instinct. To forage and hunt and collect things we see as useful or valuable are something that is ingrained deep within us because without it we never would’ve foraged for food or saved resources for hard times.
But it does get boring
As a Terraria player, i do have to say that grinding for RoD is a pain
Are we just moving on from starbound to cube world?
Black Desert Online is a great case study. Grinding can be fun if you enjoy the combat but it gradually loses its fun aspect as the game most of the time either gives you no reward or even worse punishes you for all the hard work. Yet, it still incentivises you to keep grinding for the *chance of a reward*. When you take a step back and look at it from a third point of view you realise the only thing you're consistently increasing is your playtime. BDO is not the only game that does this, and it's probably not the worst but this is another way game makers use grinding, not for the players, but for themselves.
Additionally, some of these games, will offer you the ability to skip this hurdle: now you don't have to grind for a chance of a reward. You can pay us real money for the chance of a reward, or even better, you can pay us real money and we'll give you the reward.
Grinding games that shake it up are some of favorite games, in ARK, you have to go new places and do new things if you want to progress instead of staying in the same city and mindlessly thwacking at a resource or enemy for xp and mats. Grinding games that go places are the most fun and engaging games I've played.
Just play a Rust PVP server
No two hours are ever the same in Rust on a reasonably populated server lol
Is... is that crosscode music?
I love you now.
Also, imo, if it FEELS like grinding, its done badly. Rust did it amazingly. Farming anything is quick and easy, just hit something a maximum of 8 times if you have the worst gathering tool in the game, the rock, or hit it like a machine gun with the best gathering tools, chainsaws and (the other machine thingy that i forgot, but can destroy metal nodes really fast), it only takes like 10 seconds, and it gives you enough for most things. For a small base, you dont need to farm more than 5 big trees.
"We live in a society" -The entirety of Banja Luka
The big difference in grinding in games vs real life is that in games most times we are fully invested in what we receive while I for example don't get a lot of joy from receiving money anymore
I don't hear Starbound anymore..
Davo_ loves starbound confirmed
20 year experienced runescaper here, the early to mid game content is pretty boring, click and wait type of gameplay.. but the end game content raids and bosses, and the PVP scene is INSANELY complex and has an near endless skill ceiling. there is no limit to how diffcult and engaging they can make newer content.
but yea experienced player like myself can skip the early to mid game content within a few days of grinding where a newbie would be grinding for weeks or even months. i could do certain bosses with minimal gear and stats because i mastered the game mechanics. nobody with experience spends their time killing cows XD
Grinding is okay to an extent. You need
to have some sort of progression system. But once it gets too tedious and long it ends up feeling like a job or a chore. Switching to PC is a great investment since you can use trainers mods and save files to avoid the grind and just jump in and have a good time.
You should have talked about disgaea , as that game is all about the grind
Rather not play a game that's not engaging or "starts getting good about 100 hours in (Sometimes that's generous)", I just become so consciously aware I'm sitting in a chair doing nothing while I could do some kind of grind *_IRL_* and get paid for it.
Games that don't respect your time are bad games.
To be honest, this video was very interesting because I have got bored of grinding on video games lately especially GTA 5. But after watching this video, I realised that grinding is working for a reward like building something on minecraft in survival or making money for a car on GTA 5 and it can be enjoyable if you want the reward you deserve. I think the reason why I got bored of grinding is because I treated it as a second job, or I been grinding for the wrong things or things I didn’t want or need.
Ok, u earned my sub after all. Great conclusion.
Grinding in video games is like books and they are both the same thing for delayed gratification since nothing else is in life in our 2023 Ash remcow190 world saying this on a Dave video lmao
"Fuck you Raid. I'm not letting you sponsor me."
[Proceeds to get an ad for Raid.]
Runescape is love, runescape is life
I have no idea how Respawn resisted EA.
btw Davo you should check out Battle Bros it's on sale on steam right now it's like
Mount and Blade Tactics; it feels like Mount and Blade plus Mordheim but with hex-tactics battles
"My favorite part is when you click on the cow."
I have 700 h in ow and even i believe buying lootboxes is pathetic since you can earn 99 percent of skins for free
Some people won't play for 700 hours.
@@CarrotConsumer well eveeyone wants to EARN skins so if you want to earn them you have to ACTUALLY PLAY a bit and if u don't play a lot you will have less skins but will also need less so...
This video came out just as I'm grinding all souls in Aria of Sorrow.
I think another thing to add for grinding is for it to have stakes. Like, big chance you'll die and lose all your stuff if you grind for shulker boxes in Minecraft. Idk maybe that's all I can add
@davo_ I don't agree that grinding is an 'aspect of RPGs'. I think it's more common in loot focused hack'n Slash games, MMOs, 'JRPGs' and competitive online games.
Your like to dislike ratio says it all about how underrated you are and how much the few of us appreciate you man. 🙌
Grinding means it's time to mute the in game sound, take your shirt off, and turn on that Hard Trance EDM Playlist because dammit, I need my 90G to pay for my mount and I'm just a simple Warrior.
facts tho
Bravely default consecutive chain is The definition of grinding
Monster Hunter is the perfect example of how to do grinding right, because the game has no lv up system you can't simply bulldoze everything in your path when you finally get some sweet OP gear so your own skill will always be what matters the most in the game.
Anyone else get that warm fuzzy feeling when you hear a song from a game you know in a video
If you guys wanna play a game similar to Pokemon but it's actually engaging to grind to evolve your monster, play Digimon Cyber Sleuth instead.
You evolve and devolve your monsters and try out other evolutions with certain requirements.
I REALLY LOVE HOW MUCH DWARF FORTRESS IS HERE.
6:01 game name?
Maybe it's just that Phantasy Star IV is fucking amazing, but a couple weeks ago I hated grinding. My philosophy was, "I should never have to grind in order to finish a game's story", and while I still feel that way a little bit, PSIV's combo system has made me think some more. For instance, using a Zan technique with one character and then a Foi tech with another, if those characters act right after each other, you can do a Firestorm combo. But, none of these combos are explained, so you have to experiment, and grinding is the perfect opportunity. Of course, combos aren't required at all, but they're stupid powerful and you feel awesome when you stumble upon one while just trying to take out powerful enemies with your techniques.
I like how cubeworld is constantly a laughing stock
mad respect to davo for putting the chicken invaders 2 theme at the end
The only grinding I hate in minecraft is enchanting. Seriously, doing several level 1 enchants and disenchants until it finally says something good only to end up with less than 30 levels is fucking irritating and boring. Not to mention how expensive it is to combine armor pieces with each other. Enchanting needs a rework man...
your'e videos are always really fun to watch!
nice to see crosscode and kenshi, this is a real gamer
Yeah, had the debate about grinding with friends a while back.
My conclusion is that "grinding", in the context of an overly repetitive negative, is only a grind that is required...or feels as such...and the requirement far outweighs the reward.
So Minecraft is not a "grinding" game...it's simply a choice of what you want to make with how much work you want to put in. The MOST grindy Minecraft gets is the "realm portals" which, in the grand scheme of things...aren't very hard to get if you just focus on it...and even if you don't focus on it and just end up exploring you may come across a portal anyway or run into the tool you needed anyway.
Games like Animal Crossing, aren't grinding games...because while you may need to fish a lot to get all the fish...you can do that at any pace because there is literally ZERO material reason to do so other than a trophy to hang up and a cute museum space that literally nobody cares about, try again next year who gives a fuck. The application of grinding for materials is the same thing, you don't need to have anything to experience all the game has to offer...what you use to express yourself is a choice you make and how willing or necessary it feels to get the new "Seasonal DIYs" really doesn't matter, especially given the "grindy task" is something you can while literally doing anything else, popping balloons. Having the starter house and a few trees is just as legitimate to getting you the new update content or playing with your friends and having a good time as anything else. If anything, the more you grind the less the game has to reward and offer you. I grinded out materials to decorate my island, because it gave me immediate and lasting satisfaction to do so.
Meanwhile, games like Black Desert Online say "NO" You can't get a ship yet, you can't access this area of the game, you can't do this dungeon, you can't do X thing yet...because you haven't grinded out your levels...and we specifically designed the game so that you will NEED to do a repetitive task so that you'll drop real money to skip it...or worse, made you compete with no-lifers who ruin the game for everyone. I grinded out in that abandoned castle for 3 days straight until I quit because the game said "if you want this basic feature of the game you bought...you gotta work for it"..and I stopped well before because the work wasn't worth what I thought the reward would be.
Same reason I don't like the Monster Hunter World franchise, it gets fuckin boring well before I get to all the content that I paid for...and so there is a certain point I get frustrated and leave...because sorry, killing the same fuckin dragon over and over and over and over again...isn't entertaining after you've mastered it...and they still make you continue. Friends who have more time to grind need to grind in a new region I haven't gotten to yet, and so now I'm not only grinding and doing shit I don't enjoy...I'm actively making my friends do that same shitty content over and over so that we can move on together and do it all over again in a new setting. If they just reduced the limits on moving onto new regions and having access to the content, the game would be a lot more fun....but then you get the try-hards who don't feel a task is worthy unless it requires 200 hours of their life defending the game as if it's their identity.
Agree with you for the most part.
Hey davo! although i liked the general ideas your present in this video, i felt like the video was a bit unfocused. Perhaps split it into parts or something for a simillar video in the future?
Man and i thought davo_ would take the cahnce to snap at Starbound again at 9:34.
more like AIDs: Hadow Legends
In videogames my grinding pays off and gives me a sense of accomplishment.
In life, not so much.
*closes runescape*
*closes cookie clicker*
*closes the 6 other tabs of idle games*
The problem with grinding though is the rng a player should feel rewarded for there intense actions and not feel frustrating thats the one thing i hate about games like monster hunter where rng can feel unfair and the fights still end up feeling more like work. I dont mind fighting the same monster 20 times if i am sure im gonna get the materials i need. In Darksouls 3 grinding is fine when it comes to souls and grind stone but the rng armor drops are frustrating and feels out of place compare to darksouls 1 and demon souls(where armor and weapon drops are very little)
ea turned plants vs zombies to a microtransaction game;(
They even added ads to the original, they didn’t ruin it as bad as other games though
@@obama_man9933 you need to pay for frost pea :(
@@kfkfod I know, and they fired George fan (the creator of pvz) for opposing micro transactions
Bosnia 2030: davo_ finally reaches the amount of subs he deserves
That last line was a nice reference.
-Talks about grinding
-Doesn´t talk about War Thunder
"lol"
Good vid tho
Thats not a real game, bad example lmao
@@aturchomicz821 It´s a real game, just a bad one.
War Thunder doesn't exist along with WoT
Runescape was an Idle game.
Are you dear Davo in any way related or inspired by Dayo? Idk, that Stalin pic sounded like some marxism in my games.
If I do a large variety of activities each day to earn enough X Coins, is that "grinding?" Or must "grind" be the same activitiy?
I see the complex grinding to be far worse. Imagine you have to fight a 10 minute dragon fight to get... nothing. You need to fight it 2 more times to get armor and weapons from it despite you proving you can overcome the challenge. It isn't a test of skills nor teaching the player AS YOU JUST WON. It takes which would be a simple grind... and makes it more complex for no benefit to the player other then massively wasting your time in a simple action rather then provide a new or unique challenge or expanding on mechanics.
Imagine how bad an traditional JRPG would be if it did this, or any game if it made you beat it 3 times over to then get the ending. It is just so subjective. If a game is going to grind it either needs to accept it and make it for people who like grinding... or balance your game.
I think the problem is encouraging repetitive activities with the promise of rewards. Think about any linear action focused game for example. You're still fighting a lot of the same types of enemies again and again and again, but you're always heading towards progress rather than feeling like you're deliberately repeating something for a chance of a reward.
Did I miss something or did davo not mention starbound once this whole video?
Have you ever felt the waves of emotions going through your body when you've spent thousands of hours in a game, decided you wanted to risk it all, gambled everything you had in one blow... and got scammed by a bot? Runescape has elicited stronger emotional reactions than any other piece of artistic medium. How dare you sir.
Can you do a review on Space Station 13? You might wanna check it out.
5:40
or a more common commentary
"GET THE F*CK DOWN FROM THERE
I'LL END YOU"
Wait what was that game at 4:53 i dont recognize it
CrossCode
Great vid, nice to hear a rational not pre pubescent opinion on grinding
i think that grinding should be: rewarding and chalenge, and should try to upgrade himself through the gameplay so its dont gonna stagnate quickliy
Heres a example of bad grinding and good grinding in a game that i love; Terraria.
Terraria have the fishing missions that in the most older versions of the game, it was a good way of grinding; you could every day get a fish to the angler and probaly get something cool (or not, in the most part not) or you could fish for a time to get fish weapons and ingredients, but RElogic see that and sayed NOPE fishing in journey end is now nerfed, the fishy weapons are only viable if you wanna past you entire day fishing, DEAL WITH THAT, we also nerfed the strange plants, now they are only in hardmode now.
See, the motives of why you should fish or get strange plants now are inexisting, why you would grind this things if you dont have rewards? its now so relevant then golf, the only difference its that the golf goal is be a thing to do simply because you wanna, but the strange plants and fishing are in the same level now, the difference its that getting strange plants and fishing in dangerous places its a lot more harder then golf, you screw yourself for nothing.
now the good grinding in terraria is: being rewarded for exploring everything, being rewarded for grinding a boss, being rewarded for making a artificial surface mushroom biome to get a secret material, thats the beauty of grinding, dont do only one thing, have a good reward, dont be boring, and its evolve with the player, if in pre hardmode you farmed queen bees to get bee things, now you farm fishroons, golens, moon events, you have multiple possibilities.
What's the game at 1:30 ?
Since you used that outro music, did you know, the Chicken Invaders dev is currently making a real Chicken Invaders MMO? It's... wierd.
8:23 what is this game it looks soo beautiful
Porn RPGs got me to soften up on grinding. I 100% credit them for getting me to pick Legends of Vesperia back up.
watching this while grinding for a type of armour in GOW
So...is CrossCode good?
imo monster hunter can be an even worse grind. i quit the series because of grinding.
monsters often took 30-50 minutes to kill. then you have to kill them like 8 times to make a full set of armor. then when you finally get the armor you need you can take on even stronger monsters.
these stronger monsters also take around 30-50 minutes to kill, but often have the capability of killing you in a single or few hits...So i have to stab away at this thing that can kill me in a single blow for basically up to an hour...and i have to do it like 8 times, or even more in order for me to get enough materials for armor i need to progress...
it ends up being a skill based grind that you can actually fail, and end up wasting your time for even bothering sometimes.
maybe if you got a more realistic amount of materials from killing the beasts. if i kill a rathalos for example, i should be able to break off whatever pieces i need from its corpse, unless the guild takes a cut too, "but i NEED that rathalos gem..."
or nerf the amount of HP these things have, so the grind isnt as bad. kinda unfair it can take an hour to kill them but you can die in a matter of seconds.
Got grind that kenshi, Beep will not destroy the holy Nation by himself
"Runescape still fucking sucks"
Yo, that shit hurt.
Rise and grind gamers
I'm literally dying inside grinding on AQW dan AQ3D
This is actually a video shitting on cubeworld in disguise
I grinder so much that I forgot to bathe for 3 months
So Early That The Wooper Is Still Level 1
Davo I’ve been suck in plat 3 in rocket league for 3 years but seeing you in diamond 2 with Fucking camera shake on has inspired me exept a 1v1 soon
Woah hey where’s the Wooper callout
what game is this at 6:01? (the one before terraria)