Not being able to remove the evo-pex fittings makes them a nonstarter for me. It means not only having to replace the fittings but the pex tubing that is now too short. Mistakes become VERY EXPENSIVE.
I can use the shark bite to temporarily shut off water for an emergency leak until I can make a permanent repair. This allows me to have the water on in the home without having to complete the job.
As a Technician of 40 years retired, you are a blessing to all who work in the field!! TY Your info regarding copper plumbing especially, has shown me a few tricks too!! TY
Great video! Very clean & informative. I use both systems but I do like the brass fittings better. Being able to remove a fitting if a mistake is made is an absolute game changer. I also use both copper & pex so brass sharkbite is my go to
Good comments from everyone. I plan to use pex pipe and fittings in two bath remodels. I live in a 35 year old double wide and am doing more of stopgap installations than permanent. I've never done pluming before so I chose to do the above for simplicity sake. I've paid attention to all down sides of using pex and can be careful not to make those mistakes. The biggest factor for me right now is price. I cannot afford a plumber or I would use one. These are both in wall installations that I can make a removable panel on the back of the wall so leaks are fixable.
I was somewhat dubious about Sharkbite fittings in the beginning. But after New Jersey approved them for in wall use, my worries subsided. It’s hard to get anything new approved in New Jersey!
I agree-- what is the point of installing an oversize ID PEX line, merely to assure adequate flow through EvoPEX connectors? The advantages of EvoPEX in greater permanence and rotational flexibility do count for something, but not nearly as much on most installations as avoiding the higher per-foot cost of a larger pipe for EvoPEX than otherwise needed (with the added issues of reduced flexibility with the larger PEX pipe IDs), Besides, with Sharkbite, "permanence" is only relative to the old Sharkbite design, not an absolute-- which explains continued popularity of the crimped and clamped connections.
If for some reason there is no way to fit a pex A or B fitting tool in to make the connection in a tight spot, then a slip on is a godsend. Otherwise, given a choice, I would go with PexA and expansion fittings…. Though there are some situations where Pex B is necessary like if you have to put fittings back to back… pexA cannot do that.
As a new student of plumbing I love that this channel is CANADIAN and current on code issues. Thank you for your hard work making these awesome video's.
So the first time we used the evopex where I am employed we had the green indicator saying we had a good fit but it leaked. That's when we discovered that it's a permanent connector. We had to cut the pipe and that messed things up for us.
@@Got2Learn it turns out that it could only be used on pex, something that we didn't learn until I watched this video. It was never mentioned on the packaging. So it leaked when we used it copper and then had to cut it off.
Great video explaining. I'm no plumber but I've used the sharkbite fittings in a couple areas and I'm impressed with the simplicity of them. I think they are geared more for DIYers at the moment. With the high cost of plumbers these days this product creates and solution to problems.
I have personally looked at these Evo pex fittings and looked closely at the diameter of the water passage, and it is extremely small, therefore limiting water flow way more than any other style fitting that I’ve seen More water flow is always better
DUDE!!!The 18volt press tool that I told you about and gave you links to totally rocks!!!I received the four press jaw set that I ordered for U.S. copper pipe sizes from 1/2" to 1-1/4",I pressed a 1/2" copper press elbow to a piece of 1/2" copper pipe that I plan to use to connect a bypass line from my boiler's hot water coil to my water heater in case I ever have to swap out the boiler's hot water coil and WOW!!!I looked at the press joint with a magnifying glass and there is no way the 1/2" press elbow is coming off of the 1/2" copper pipe unless the elbow is ripped from the copper pipe which from what I can see and tell isn't going to be any easy task.I'm totally amazed and impressed.
Two or three seconds and BOOM!!!The 1/2" copper press elbow was pressed onto a 1/2" piece of copper pipe.No more soldering up on a ladder in celings and in walls,from now on I'll solder on the ground then once what ever it is that I need to solder is soldered and cooled I'll use press couplings,press elbows and press tees to connect the soldered valves or unions to the rest of my copper pipes and done deal,I'm loving it my Brother.
I hope so my Brother because many people that have the know how but do not have several thousand dollars to spend on a press tool could really benefit from a 18volt press tool like the one that I now own.I'm completely amazed at how fast and how well I can join copper pipe without risking a fire which no matter how careful we are is always a risk.The most expensive of the press fittings are the ball valves and the unions but I will solder copper nipples to sweat ball valves and sweat unions on the ground then connect the sweat ball valves and sweat unions with press couplings,press elbows and press tees which will lower the price of having to do the work considerably.It's truly the best of both worlds,no more soldering up on ladders in ceilings and walls or near rafters.
Can you give name of that tool or a link to it? Thanks. Because just about everyone is using 18V battery powered tools already, and with battery adapters now being on the market one can even get a tool from another brand yet still use the batteries and charger from their main / preferred brand.
Thank you for the cross sectional view of both. I personally don't use sharkbites in my business for a number of reasons. 1. They do leak. Like you said if the pipe is scratched at all you will have a weaper. Also.if there's any tension on.them like bending around something they will leak. 2. If I keep them around and let my Plumbers think they are ok to use they will get lazy and install them everywhere. 3. Our philosophy is we install Pioe and Fittings that we can drop kick when done and it won't leak. Sounds silly.but if that's our standard then our piping is solid and ready to last lifespan of the building. These fittings defiently have a purpose for a homeowner to make a 1zy or 2zy repair here or there. However I would not recommend a Plumbing Contractor to Plumb an entire house with it. I hope I'm not acting like our forefathers who said pex was the end of the trade as they where threading in Galvanized Pipe. I have installed a few sharkbites and have had a leak on or two due to tension on the fitting...
I only use S-B when I have to....a transition or in a spot where I cant get a torch or a pro-press in ......I'll use a 50 cent pex fitting and crimp it. 12 bucks for a lousy 1/2inch coupling is not worth any of it
My company has a strict no SB policy. The only exception is when there is no other option, like doing quest pipe repairs(replacing part with pex) since it’s so hard to find fittings.
4:16 ...for copper pipes, aren't you supposed to remove that white plastic 'stiffener' inside the Sharkbite fitting? I've seen some plumbers mentioning that in some videos.
I only use sharkbites on retrofit transitions and repairs. Since evopex is pex only, not sure why I'd ever use one over the propex I'm already invested in (and love)
I mainly use sharkbites for transitions and places where I know I will or at least might want to change it out so prefer the classic brass ones over evopex. And actually, when I can find them, I really like the newer SharkBite Max fittings since those don't need the plastic insert inside pex tubing.
much better all copper press type fitting brands out there with dual o rings on both sides and nicely curved bends. used those a few times and never had a single issue.
I would not use it mass quantity behind walls or buried since its rated at 25 years unless the coupler locations are clearly documented and easy to access and or there is no better alternative or it provides an advantage that is matched by no other. I have several location which I installed SB valves and couplers up to 1.25" over 10 years and no issues as of yet. The 25th year will tell. If I need a connection to be reliable and forgettable, I would install copper.
I was about to try and use this fitting on copper pipe to pex for first time but was having a hard time fully seating it as it took alot of pressure so I stopped to see why and now I know I cant use it anyway. Thanks because I was about to cut my water line!
The trick to remove a sharkbite - push the teeth in really hard with the orange clip, and *push the pipe in* hard simultaneously. Then give the pipe a good tug while holding the clip in
Most of people are saying it’s costly , this product is worth and cost Saving for a guy like me who does not know any things about plumbing works and I did shower pipe change successfully with zero fees of plumbers , yes most of traditional plumbers whom were in the job for 20 years , will not use it , because they had solidarity experience, but guy like me , it is wonderful product to get red of plumbers highly fees
I am in the same place. If I pay a little more for hardware but save hundreds in plumber labor cost its a home run for me. Also I prefer to do my own home repairs.
That's the thought until you flood your entire house, or burn it down, or even a little drip that won't be noticed until it's rotted your floors and you start growing black mold in your walls. If you can't afford a plumber you sure as hell can't afford the damage you are flirting with. Just remember often times cheap is expensive.
@@brock8830 you can check for leaks, it's not that hard. Plumbing isn't rocket science either and anyone competent enough can pick it up quick. I've only done piping 3 times and by the 3rs time, my works as good as a pro
@@NadeemAhmed-nv2br doing piping as you call it does not equate to actual plumbing. And I would love to see your work, that is as you put it "is as good as a pro"..... Because first of all if it was pro you would not be using shark bites.
Thats why the expanding Wirsoboro Uponor stuff is so good. The fittings have a larger ID, similar to actual copper. My house is 3/4pex but im going to AquaPex asap!
Installing my Uponor in a few days, still tidying up the electrical... Shark Bites are ok for quick temporary repairs, I would not trust them for years of service.
I've had a few of those fittings in my van for several months I hadn't been able to bring myself to use any of them, I have them for a midnight emergency, I use uponor pex A more than pex B on all repipes but I use pex B on most repairs or copper if I'm working on a copper job, thanks for your videos
I spend a bit for Pex A as well...and I have used it for general process applications like compressed air, chemicals, etc. in heavy industry with 100% success. Also, in two years, I have not had a single freeze up failure in intermittantly heated subfreezing locations during winter weather.
A flow reduction in the fittings compared to the pipe in this case is nominal. The flow restriction(friction) of a 90 degree elbow is equal to the flow of about 5 feet of pipe for a normal full flow fitting, so for these elbows maybe more like 10 feet of pipe, not a big deal. If one or two of these elbows cut your flow too much then you probably needed a larger pipe to begin with. To prevent cold or hot spikes in the shower always make the shower the priority position when installing a tee .
@@i1uvpreppyxo887 yes, the shower should be with less restriction to flow, so straight thru the tee would give priority if the feed is connected to the straight thru leg or if the feed line is connected to the intersecting leg of the tee the flow will be evenly split if two fixtures are on at the same time. The shower should always have the straight thru flow for hot and cold b/c it's a fixture where temp and flow are the most apparent.
@@Got2Learn Didn't. I cut the shower up pipe about 6" up then I final fit the sharkbite to the screw thread on top of the faucet. I put a union pipe in 6" up with just enough clearance and then slide it half on, half off on the junction pipe, cooled the sharkbite and soldered in the union. I never want to use sharkbites again. Old houses have pipes the don't fit in straight and you have to hope the cocked pipe isn't a cause for a soon to be leak once getting the new tiles on.
I just used evo pex today for the first time. I've never recommended using any kind of shark fittings previously and have actually warned against using them anytime other than emergencies. I pride myself on my copper skills and i always prefer solid rigid copper pipe over anything else. But! Ive got to say that when you need to re plumb in a bathroom in a mobile home with single digit temps and you don't want to break the bank and you also need something that is less likely to bust when frozen ive got to say ive come to appreciate this product and how fast I can delete old pipes and install new supply lines. Especially where soldering is not so much of an option. Considering no special tools are needed this may be my new go to.
The restriction makes it a no no for me as, to keep the flow of an 1/2 inch, you have to switch to 3\4 and the associated extra cost . The permanent aspect of it is also a No Go for me. I would have liked a price comparison too, maybe the Evo brings it back to a reasonable level. Mean time I'll stick with barbed fittings and collars.
Restriction is something it seems a lot of people don’t consider. A fitting here or there shouldn’t matter but in a big job it might need to upsize everything one size. That’s why we use uponor only for pex. Of course uponor isn’t the only expansion pex option
Got2Learn awesome, I know there’s other versions of expansion pex, zurn, wirsbo, and now heatlink has put out one. They may be good but they’re harder to find and some only go up by to 1”. We’ve done all the way up to 3” uponor
I have a big problem with Flow Restriction it, needs to be addressed. I would like someone to address the durability of the plastic making of the fitting. Is the plastic material brittle under stress and how well will it perform with repeated wide temperature swings both with what it's carrying and ambient temperatures?
how would you replace a hose bib on EvoPlex? I get the basics on the product, but if the line is too short and built into the wall and not much access to slack.
The brass can be taken off. It works with different pipe types. Installing them takes less force. And less of a flow problem. Brass is the clear winner for me
Thanks for all the feedback, it helps in decision making, but I don't like the fact that they're not removable, even the conventional copper fittings can be removed, so they kinda don't make sense
They are good on new installs for sure, the fact that keep out dirt from the o-ring and have an upgraded seal and way to keep the o-ring protected while inserting is comforting. The downside to evopex is it is less readily available in Canada. Not sold at home depot at least in Canada, and that it can only work on pex. I’m not sure if is Canada wide that evopex isn’t approved because of the lesser water flow. for any installs or retrofits to old homes i would still recommend using regular sharkbite as it is more readily available. When dealing with retrofits it’s easier in some cases to leave some of the original copper pipe where it is. however i’ve had customers last minute tell me they want the difficult sections removed as well. it’s those last minute decisions that make me happy that the regular fittings are readily available. while I understand buying bulk is ideal and ordering evopex ahead of time can be a good idea, smaller contractor companies often prefer to operate on a buy only what is needed when it is needed basis as margins and liquidity are sometimes constrained.
For simplicity and cost I would just crimp the pex, but with flow rates and such, if you or a customer have certain needs, that will probably affect other decisions.
I've been looking at the brass sharkbite and evopex for a small job in my laundry. I didn't know that EvoPex doesn't work with copper. As I have to transition from copper to pex, I'll go with the brass fittings. Thank you.
Great video! I wish I could leave picture comments. I'm working on my 3ed bathroom in my house. The plumbing has been a breeze since I switched everything to PEX from galvanized/pvc...
As with most reasons for what type of fitting I or you might use, cost will be the biggest factor, not being able to reuse a fitting would greatly discourage me and as you said making changes is a part of the process, yes copper fittings are cheap but who wants to desweat and rework, takes to much time. Brass is a tried and true material, I've seen a lot of messed up copper from bad water but brass holds up better over time, when brass fails it's usually the packing materials or washers that fail not the brass that's I'm would be more worried about the o-ring, wonder how many brass fittings could have been fixed with a 10 cent washer or 6"'s of stem packing thread...🙄 Steel fittings not so sure about over time? Rough surfaces on pex is easily fixed with a fine sanding (and I mean fine) around the pipe, not lengthwise and a little (and I mean a little) teflon dope or plumbing grease before you set the fitting, it helps to lubricate the o-ring and seal the pipe, yes the pex system cost more than old school copper fittings but sweating in takes time and equipment, time savings make a good balance for the cost because you charge the same amount. If the flow is a problem with the Evo-pex just jump up the pipe size to 3/4 and your done with flow issues, can't stand taking a shower in a pittleing flow of water and that's why I usually remove the flow restrictor... 😉
I needed a SharkBite shutoff to go from copper to PEX. EvoPEX was the only thing available at the only hardware store open. I did not see where it said FOR PEX ONLY. It should say that in bigger print
I have shark bite brass fittings and I have to replace them all mostly on the cold side what’s interesting to me is there rotting out they have green around them and are slightly starting to drip. I think it may be better off going with the uponor pex fittings but idk. Any recommendations let me know
I've been watching videos on shark bite fittings and can see using them for hooking up PEX pipe that is easy to get to. Like in-floor, heating pipe hooked up to a manifold. that's above ground. I think copper is better for everything else and I think I can solder the fittings for a house I want to build. I picture people years from now looking at leaking Shark bite fittings and wondering why someone used them. My question is, can the Oring be replaced in the SB fitting?
I hate all sharkbite push fittings Genova products makes a push fitting that is made out of cpvc. They have a nut on them that you tighten to hold them together so you can sleep at night. without worrying that you’re pipes will pop apart.
We understand your love for security, Jack, and we agree! The confidence of a secure connection is unmatched. Feedback like yours is what inspired us to include the green indicator on the EvoPEX line for a visible connection.
SharkBite needs to get rid of those sharp turns on their elbows because that will definitely affect water flow.I would use regular SharkBite fittings as a temporary fix but those evo whatevers I would not even consider.
I doubt I'd ever use the evo-pex, it seems like a step backwards. If they can't be taken off or reused why use them at all, just use the copper crimp rings, which are probably cheaper. You didn't mention cost compared to sharkbite. Well at least they've left an opening for a 3rd creation that may be better than both, unless someone else does it first.
What if I use sharkbite push connector on a pex-a will it reduce the pressure. I am repositioning a 3 ft hydronic baseboard 4ft away and thinking of using pex-a with sharkbite to transition from copper to pex to connect the loop.
If they only fit PEX, what's the advantage? I can see guys who can't sweat copper using them (I only use SBs in an emergency), but if just on PEX, use an expander and do it right without worrying about an O-ring in 25 years.
Flow resistance across the project could become a problem. I really don't appreciate the lack of re usability, not so much because I reuse the a lot but rather when a redo is necessary, it can be costly in time and materials; sometimes requiring a full new run... Another dislike is the amount of force needed to affix the fitting. 55 lbs. across the day and in tight spaces can ad up. In addition, there are time on variable projects where PEX is not optimal, having a bunch of these on your truck could mean another trip to the parts house... Great vid.
MI personal opinion, I like to use shark bite fittings BUT will only use them on copper, I know its ok to uae it on PVC or PEX But due to the flexibility of the plastic I dont trust them on thoae pipes, on copper? Its great and secure!
One thing that I am pretty sure of is that if you use SB on PEX-A and that something happens, you would probably not be covered, SB had problems with this, which is why they are making their own PEX now, but i'll still give you a proper answer, just waiting on SB to answer me back.
Hey, I'm in the last step of basement renovation and the contractor wants to bury my water inlet in the cement wall. Only problem is that there is a temporary sharkbite connection right where the cement needs to be on the inch and a half intel from the city ( Montreal ). I'm guessing the best idea would be to use a copper coupling and then transition outside the comment with copper ? let me know what you think. I got like 2 days to make a decision. Jparle Francais aussi.
Our fittings can be used as a permanent solution. Feel free to give our Customer Support team a call with specific application questions! We’d be happy to chat with you. 1-877-700-4242
I have been using similar connectors from other vendors in commercial automation for years so I would not have any issue using them in a residential plumbing build. From the looks they are stainless and plastic so should withstand corrosion well. I might move up a size of tubing to make up for the internal restriction on the fittings though.
Flow is very important considering already PEX has a low flow rate in the first place three-quarter pex equals the same flow as half inch copper why do people do not upsize on their packs and have this very problem. A lot of people get their mind blown by the equation for volume it takes 8.2 1 inch pipes to equal the volume of a 2 inch pipe
Beg to differ. The area of 2" pipe is 1 *1* pi = pi The area of four half inch pipes is 4 * (1/2) * (1/2) * pi = pi Actually the ID of type L one inch pipe is slightly larger than 1" at 1.025 The ID of type L of two inch pipe is slightly under 2" at 1.985 In terms of flow rate, all the one inch pipe would have much higher friction, and lower flow depending on volume.
They both use the same stupid O-ring sealing that depends on the pressure squeezing the ring to make the seal. Then, the ring(s) oxidize and water leaks. If they had brains, they would configure the ring retention system so the water pressure forces the ring into the cavity that creates the seal. Then, they would last "forever".
As it turns out, the inner diameter of a half inch pex is a little less than 5mm. So the flow rate wouldn't be hindered between two half inch PEX pipes with the new fitting. I'm not a plumber, but I would assume your flow rate would be determined by the smallest diameter of the entire system to any given fixture. in this case, as long as the fixture, pipes, fittings, etc are all equal or greater than the .485mm inner diameter of half inch plumbing, your flow rate would not be hindered more than you would expect by the PEX pipe itself. You could address that by running 3/4" tubing since it isn't much more expensive, but you run into pipe reductions between the plumbing and the fixtures, many of which are only 1/4" anyways.
I cannot believe anyone would want to add that much restriction to the flow. I didn't bother to do the math, but it sure looks like you would need to upsize the piping to the next size if you want true full flow. A regular Sharkbite is already pretty restrictive compared to copper joints, but this new EVO version is ridiculous.
ill use a sharkbite when you cant get a torch or press tool in there.....i work at apartment complexes mostly built early 70s where the the type M is failing and its pinhole leaks everywhere....we are slowly doing complete repipes
I’ve definitely used sharkbites but I don’t trust a rubber O-ring to last and not ever leak. Ever had a car with a leaky valve cover gasket? Yeah if it could be soldered on it would never leak. I only trust soldered fittings. But in a pinch or if it’s someplace you don’t want to risk a fire use one then. That’s how I think anyways. 😊
At the end of the video you said you trust evopex more than the brass fitting. Ask yourself what is evopex’s track record? How long has it been in the market? Longevity wise it is not proven just like when the first polybutylene pipes came out.
And let us not forget about durapax I repair that stuff here every day here in Middle Tennessee that stuff has been leaking everywhere it looks like someone took a razor blade and cut it three little times it starts off behind the water heater and works its way through the house most of the bad pipe was under a lawsuit after nifco bought them out and it was a clay pot color it's been a nightmare for homeowners here in Tennessee I feel sorry for people that buy a $800,000 house and have to get it repipe just a few years later
Not being able to remove the evo-pex fittings makes them a nonstarter for me. It means not only having to replace the fittings but the pex tubing that is now too short. Mistakes become VERY EXPENSIVE.
$30 down the drain for me.
Same here brother
I can use the shark bite to temporarily shut off water for an emergency leak until I can make a permanent repair. This allows me to have the water on in the home without having to complete the job.
As a Technician of 40 years retired, you are a blessing to all who work in the field!! TY Your info regarding copper plumbing especially, has shown me a few tricks too!! TY
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Great video! Very clean & informative. I use both systems but I do like the brass fittings better. Being able to remove a fitting if a mistake is made is an absolute game changer. I also use both copper & pex so brass sharkbite is my go to
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Good comments from everyone. I plan to use pex pipe and fittings in two bath remodels. I live in a 35 year old double wide and am doing more of stopgap installations than permanent. I've never done pluming before so I chose to do the above for simplicity sake. I've paid attention to all down sides of using pex and can be careful not to make those mistakes. The biggest factor for me right now is price. I cannot afford a plumber or I would use one. These are both in wall installations that I can make a removable panel on the back of the wall so leaks are fixable.
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Crimp or clamp fittings are super easy to install with pex and way more reliable
Your videos are always very informative. I appreciate your work!
It seams to me that the reduction in flow due to loss of diameter would be a big reason to not choose them.
It's the same like PEX fittings.
Got2Learn True. A tube with 7mm diameter has twice the volume as 5mm. 10mm has 4x the volume as 5mm.
Not Pex A expansion fittings... which cheaper too.... and the brass ones are better for emergency, since they can be removed for a permanent repair...
I would oversize it to prevent flow restriction
Heber rivera Yeah. Or just use PEX A instead of PEX B and avoid all those issues.
I was somewhat dubious about Sharkbite fittings in the beginning. But after New Jersey approved them for in wall use, my worries subsided. It’s hard to get anything new approved in New Jersey!
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That flow problem is enough for me to never use them. Marking a peice of pipe is no big deal.
I agree-- what is the point of installing an oversize ID PEX line, merely to assure adequate flow through EvoPEX connectors? The advantages of EvoPEX in greater permanence and rotational flexibility do count for something, but not nearly as much on most installations as avoiding the higher per-foot cost of a larger pipe for EvoPEX than otherwise needed (with the added issues of reduced flexibility with the larger PEX pipe IDs),
Besides, with Sharkbite, "permanence" is only relative to the old Sharkbite design, not an absolute-- which explains continued popularity of the crimped and clamped connections.
If for some reason there is no way to fit a pex A or B fitting tool in to make the connection in a tight spot, then a slip on is a godsend.
Otherwise, given a choice, I would go with PexA and expansion fittings…. Though there are some situations where Pex B is necessary like if you have to put fittings back to back… pexA cannot do that.
Flow rate is a big issue. The o ring is inside the pipe and severely reduces the cross sectional area. Theres certainly less water flowing!
Not unless your pipe is undersized already for the application.
As a new student of plumbing I love that this channel is CANADIAN and current on code issues. Thank you for your hard work making these awesome video's.
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Yet another excellent presentation. Thorough and succinct. Thanks. 👏👍✌
Thanks man, please share if you can ;)
@@Got2Learn
Sure, of course.
thanks a million man, really appreciate it!
So the first time we used the evopex where I am employed we had the green indicator saying we had a good fit but it leaked. That's when we discovered that it's a permanent connector. We had to cut the pipe and that messed things up for us.
Ouch, what was the cause, do you know???
@@Got2Learn it turns out that it could only be used on pex, something that we didn't learn until I watched this video. It was never mentioned on the packaging. So it leaked when we used it copper and then had to cut it off.
@@DireNeeds 👌
Great video explaining. I'm no plumber but I've used the sharkbite fittings in a couple areas and I'm impressed with the simplicity of them. I think they are geared more for DIYers at the moment. With the high cost of plumbers these days this product creates and solution to problems.
;)
@@Got2Learn Can we used SharkBite for Underground.. ???
Have some work to do around the home and came across your channel. Your videos are incredibly helpful. Keep up the great work and thanks so much!
Welcome aboard!
Not removable and lower flow, forget it! I'll bet they cost more as well...
I have personally looked at these Evo pex fittings and looked closely at the diameter of the water passage, and it is extremely small, therefore limiting water flow way more than any other style fitting that I’ve seen
More water flow is always better
You should do a video testing pull out strength on both fittings. That would be interesting to see
Great suggestion!
DUDE!!!The 18volt press tool that I told you about and gave you links to totally rocks!!!I received the four press jaw set that I ordered for U.S. copper pipe sizes from 1/2" to 1-1/4",I pressed a 1/2" copper press elbow to a piece of 1/2" copper pipe that I plan to use to connect a bypass line from my boiler's hot water coil to my water heater in case I ever have to swap out the boiler's hot water coil and WOW!!!I looked at the press joint with a magnifying glass and there is no way the 1/2" press elbow is coming off of the 1/2" copper pipe unless the elbow is ripped from the copper pipe which from what I can see and tell isn't going to be any easy task.I'm totally amazed and impressed.
Two or three seconds and BOOM!!!The 1/2" copper press elbow was pressed onto a 1/2" piece of copper pipe.No more soldering up on a ladder in celings and in walls,from now on I'll solder on the ground then once what ever it is that I need to solder is soldered and cooled I'll use press couplings,press elbows and press tees to connect the soldered valves or unions to the rest of my copper pipes and done deal,I'm loving it my Brother.
Awesome man, so glad o hear it works well, probably do a video on this in the future :)
I hope so my Brother because many people that have the know how but do not have several thousand dollars to spend on a press tool could really benefit from a 18volt press tool like the one that I now own.I'm completely amazed at how fast and how well I can join copper pipe without risking a fire which no matter how careful we are is always a risk.The most expensive of the press fittings are the ball valves and the unions but I will solder copper nipples to sweat ball valves and sweat unions on the ground then connect the sweat ball valves and sweat unions with press couplings,press elbows and press tees which will lower the price of having to do the work considerably.It's truly the best of both worlds,no more soldering up on ladders in ceilings and walls or near rafters.
Can you give name of that tool or a link to it? Thanks. Because just about everyone is using 18V battery powered tools already, and with battery adapters now being on the market one can even get a tool from another brand yet still use the batteries and charger from their main / preferred brand.
Propress relies on an O-ring like the Sharkbites. Compression probably improve the process but I've never trusted O-rings.
Very informative! This gave me a much better comparison on what to use for my plumbing job. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for the cross sectional view of both. I personally don't use sharkbites in my business for a number of reasons.
1. They do leak. Like you said if the pipe is scratched at all you will have a weaper. Also.if there's any tension on.them like bending around something they will leak.
2. If I keep them around and let my Plumbers think they are ok to use they will get lazy and install them everywhere.
3. Our philosophy is we install Pioe and Fittings that we can drop kick when done and it won't leak. Sounds silly.but if that's our standard then our piping is solid and ready to last lifespan of the building.
These fittings defiently have a purpose for a homeowner to make a 1zy or 2zy repair here or there. However I would not recommend a Plumbing Contractor to Plumb an entire house with it.
I hope I'm not acting like our forefathers who said pex was the end of the trade as they where threading in Galvanized Pipe. I have installed a few sharkbites and have had a leak on or two due to tension on the fitting...
You have good standards 👌
I only use S-B when I have to....a transition or in a spot where I cant get a torch or a pro-press in ......I'll use a 50 cent pex fitting and crimp it. 12 bucks for a lousy 1/2inch coupling is not worth any of it
;)
My company has a strict no SB policy. The only exception is when there is no other option, like doing quest pipe repairs(replacing part with pex) since it’s so hard to find fittings.
We like to make any part of your job a little easier. Thanks for using SharkBite for transitions and in tight spots!
I can’t help but wonder how much the torch kit or propress tool cost?
ProPress is about 2500$ US lol.
4:16 ...for copper pipes, aren't you supposed to remove that white plastic 'stiffener' inside the Sharkbite fitting? I've seen some plumbers mentioning that in some videos.
Sharkbite says it can damage the small teeth in the fitting.
I only use sharkbites on retrofit transitions and repairs. Since evopex is pex only, not sure why I'd ever use one over the propex I'm already invested in (and love)
I mainly use sharkbites for transitions and places where I know I will or at least might want to change it out so prefer the classic brass ones over evopex. And actually, when I can find them, I really like the newer SharkBite Max fittings since those don't need the plastic insert inside pex tubing.
much better all copper press type fitting brands out there with dual o rings on both sides and nicely curved bends. used those a few times and never had a single issue.
I would not use it mass quantity behind walls or buried since its rated at 25 years unless the coupler locations are clearly documented and easy to access and or there is no better alternative or it provides an advantage that is matched by no other. I have several location which I installed SB valves and couplers up to 1.25" over 10 years and no issues as of yet. The 25th year will tell. If I need a connection to be reliable and forgettable, I would install copper.
I won't use the Evopex fittings. I've seldom have a problem with the sharkbite fittings. The sharkbites are also removable.
I was about to try and use this fitting on copper pipe to pex for first time but was having a hard time fully seating it as it took alot of pressure so I stopped to see why and now I know I cant use it anyway. Thanks because I was about to cut my water line!
The trick to remove a sharkbite - push the teeth in really hard with the orange clip, and *push the pipe in* hard simultaneously. Then give the pipe a good tug while holding the clip in
@wackoguywatch squirt some silicone lubricant into the fitting beforehand (DuPont makes this in pressurized cans)
Most of people are saying it’s costly , this product is worth and cost Saving for a guy like me who does not know any things about plumbing works and I did shower pipe change successfully with zero fees of plumbers , yes most of traditional plumbers whom were in the job for 20 years , will not use it , because they had solidarity experience, but guy like me , it is wonderful product to get red of plumbers highly fees
I am in the same place. If I pay a little more for hardware but save hundreds in plumber labor cost its a home run for me. Also I prefer to do my own home repairs.
That's the thought until you flood your entire house, or burn it down, or even a little drip that won't be noticed until it's rotted your floors and you start growing black mold in your walls. If you can't afford a plumber you sure as hell can't afford the damage you are flirting with. Just remember often times cheap is expensive.
@@brock8830 you can check for leaks, it's not that hard. Plumbing isn't rocket science either and anyone competent enough can pick it up quick. I've only done piping 3 times and by the 3rs time, my works as good as a pro
@@NadeemAhmed-nv2br doing piping as you call it does not equate to actual plumbing. And I would love to see your work, that is as you put it "is as good as a pro"..... Because first of all if it was pro you would not be using shark bites.
Go with the regular sharkbite, these fittings are not as user-friendly
Thats why the expanding Wirsoboro Uponor stuff is so good. The fittings have a larger ID, similar to actual copper. My house is 3/4pex but im going to AquaPex asap!
Installing my Uponor in a few days, still tidying up the electrical... Shark Bites are ok for quick temporary repairs, I would not trust them for years of service.
If I was working with pex I’m not sure the negatives of these are worth it. Why not just use uponor? Better flow, sealing and super easy to use.
What is uponor?
@@williamkauffman8898 It's a brand of expandable pipe. It's the only one I've really seen but I'm sure there are other kinds. Its the best imo.
@wackoguywatch AND they have a higher freezing/bursting threshold!!! Great to know if in a northern climate
I've had a few of those fittings in my van for several months I hadn't been able to bring myself to use any of them, I have them for a midnight emergency, I use uponor pex A more than pex B on all repipes but I use pex B on most repairs or copper if I'm working on a copper job, thanks for your videos
Awesome man, glad to hear :)
I spend a bit for Pex A as well...and I have used it for general process applications like compressed air, chemicals, etc. in heavy industry with 100% success. Also, in two years, I have not had a single freeze up failure in intermittantly heated subfreezing locations during winter weather.
@@diverbob8 I agree even if it freezes it will not bust.
@@diverbob8 I agree even if it freezes it will not bust.
A flow reduction in the fittings compared to the pipe in this case is nominal. The flow restriction(friction) of a 90 degree elbow is equal to the flow of about 5 feet of pipe for a normal full flow fitting, so for these elbows maybe more like 10 feet of pipe, not a big deal. If one or two of these elbows cut your flow too much then you probably needed a larger pipe to begin with. To prevent cold or hot spikes in the shower always make the shower the priority position when installing a tee .
By priority position do you mean make the shower the straight ahead position and the other position the 90 degree turn?
@@i1uvpreppyxo887 yes, the shower should be with less restriction to flow, so straight thru the tee would give priority if the feed is connected to the straight thru leg or if the feed line is connected to the intersecting leg of the tee the flow will be evenly split if two fixtures are on at the same time. The shower should always have the straight thru flow for hot and cold b/c it's a fixture where temp and flow are the most apparent.
@@robertobakero8865 thanks. I didn’t know that.
The force of weight needed and the permanent fixture is the reason I won’t go with it you had me with the rest until you got to those last two
How do you thread a top pipe on a bathroom faucet when the pipes are in and the tiles are done.
Gotta remove those tiles.
@@Got2Learn Didn't. I cut the shower up pipe about 6" up then I final fit the sharkbite to the screw thread on top of the faucet. I put a union pipe in 6" up with just enough clearance and then slide it half on, half off on the junction pipe, cooled the sharkbite and soldered in the union. I never want to use sharkbites again. Old houses have pipes the don't fit in straight and you have to hope the cocked pipe isn't a cause for a soon to be leak once getting the new tiles on.
Very informative & well made video!
The restriction makes this fitting a hard sell for me. :)
Yup, and for many people too :(
I just used evo pex today for the first time. I've never recommended using any kind of shark fittings previously and have actually warned against using them anytime other than emergencies. I pride myself on my copper skills and i always prefer solid rigid copper pipe over anything else. But! Ive got to say that when you need to re plumb in a bathroom in a mobile home with single digit temps and you don't want to break the bank and you also need something that is less likely to bust when frozen ive got to say ive come to appreciate this product and how fast I can delete old pipes and install new supply lines. Especially where soldering is not so much of an option. Considering no special tools are needed this may be my new go to.
The restriction makes it a no no for me as, to keep the flow of an 1/2 inch, you have to switch to 3\4 and the associated extra cost . The permanent aspect of it is also a No Go for me. I would have liked a price comparison too, maybe the Evo brings it back to a reasonable level. Mean time I'll stick with barbed fittings and collars.
Restriction is something it seems a lot of people don’t consider. A fitting here or there shouldn’t matter but in a big job it might need to upsize everything one size. That’s why we use uponor only for pex. Of course uponor isn’t the only expansion pex option
Uponor is the best IMO, video coming on that in the near future.
Got2Learn awesome, I know there’s other versions of expansion pex, zurn, wirsbo, and now heatlink has put out one. They may be good but they’re harder to find and some only go up by to 1”. We’ve done all the way up to 3” uponor
Can't wait to work with it again ;)
another stellar demo!!! great job
Thanks buddy!!!!
sharkbite are so much like truck air line connectors.....they are rugged and survive extreme hot and cold. They will survive in water.
I have a big problem with Flow Restriction it, needs to be addressed. I would like someone to address the durability of the plastic making of the fitting. Is the plastic material brittle under stress and how well will it perform with repeated wide temperature swings both with what it's carrying and ambient temperatures?
Plastic only becomes brittle if left in the sunlight, or else, on any other part of a normal plumbing system they are fine.
how would you replace a hose bib on EvoPlex? I get the basics on the product, but if the line is too short and built into the wall and not much access to slack.
The brass can be taken off. It works with different pipe types. Installing them takes less force. And less of a flow problem. Brass is the clear winner for me
Thanks for all the feedback, it helps in decision making, but I don't like the fact that they're not removable, even the conventional copper fittings can be removed, so they kinda don't make sense
Without being removable they lose a lot of the advantages, like capping off a pipe while roughing in.
John Guest for capping and removing...
Sharkbites are more of a permanent solution, with an added benefit of having the option to remove if need be
Volume and flow. That's so drastic I wouldn't use in my home I'd steer clear of.
Ever see the opening on most valves? Tiny. There was a time when I thought running 3/4" would increase flow...silly me.
They are good on new installs for sure, the fact that keep out dirt from the o-ring and have an upgraded seal and way to keep the o-ring protected while inserting is comforting.
The downside to evopex is it is less readily available in Canada. Not sold at home depot at least in Canada, and that it can only work on pex.
I’m not sure if is Canada wide that evopex isn’t approved because of the lesser water flow.
for any installs or retrofits to old homes i would still recommend using regular sharkbite as it is more readily available. When dealing with retrofits it’s easier in some cases to leave some of the original copper pipe where it is. however i’ve had customers last minute tell me they want the difficult sections removed as well. it’s those last minute decisions that make me happy that the regular fittings are readily available.
while I understand buying bulk is ideal and ordering evopex ahead of time can be a good idea, smaller contractor companies often prefer to operate on a buy only what is needed when it is needed basis as margins and liquidity are sometimes constrained.
For simplicity and cost I would just crimp the pex, but with flow rates and such, if you or a customer have certain needs, that will probably affect other decisions.
suggest considering expansion or propex, get the full bore size of the tubing and its more flexible, less fittings
Excellent video again
Looks like evo-pex really thought things through and designed a pretty good fitting. Well presented bro.
Yeah they really did, quite an impressive little system, sure hope they hold up to their name ;) thanks Viper6 ;)
I've been looking at the brass sharkbite and evopex for a small job in my laundry.
I didn't know that EvoPex doesn't work with copper. As I have to transition from copper to pex, I'll go with the brass fittings.
Thank you.
If they are considerably cheaper I’ll use the with the negatives!
You answered all my questions. The only thing that I don't like about Evo is that it's not reusable.
Yes, bummer!
Great video! I wish I could leave picture comments. I'm working on my 3ed bathroom in my house. The plumbing has been a breeze since I switched everything to PEX from galvanized/pvc...
That is awesome, so much easier to work with, good job William!
As with most reasons for what type of fitting I or you might use, cost will be the biggest factor, not being able to reuse a fitting would greatly discourage me and as you said making changes is a part of the process, yes copper fittings are cheap but who wants to desweat and rework, takes to much time. Brass is a tried and true material, I've seen a lot of messed up copper from bad water but brass holds up better over time, when brass fails it's usually the packing materials or washers that fail not the brass that's I'm would be more worried about the o-ring, wonder how many brass fittings could have been fixed with a 10 cent washer or 6"'s of stem packing thread...🙄 Steel fittings not so sure about over time? Rough surfaces on pex is easily fixed with a fine sanding (and I mean fine) around the pipe, not lengthwise and a little (and I mean a little) teflon dope or plumbing grease before you set the fitting, it helps to lubricate the o-ring and seal the pipe, yes the pex system cost more than old school copper fittings but sweating in takes time and equipment, time savings make a good balance for the cost because you charge the same amount. If the flow is a problem with the Evo-pex just jump up the pipe size to 3/4 and your done with flow issues, can't stand taking a shower in a pittleing flow of water and that's why I usually remove the flow restrictor... 😉
I needed a SharkBite shutoff to go from copper to PEX. EvoPEX was the only thing available at the only hardware store open. I did not see where it said FOR PEX ONLY. It should say that in bigger print
I have shark bite brass fittings and I have to replace them all mostly on the cold side what’s interesting to me is there rotting out they have green around them and are slightly starting to drip. I think it may be better off going with the uponor pex fittings but idk. Any recommendations let me know
How long have you had them?
Got2Learn not long maybe 5-7 max. I mean the fittings shouldn’t be turning green on the ends and starting to leak.
What kind of water do you have? If you have super hard water, this will happen with any type of connection.
Take this from a guy that has used them they are great for a quick fix easy to use and last a long time if use properly.
How do you remove them?? 🤔
You can't remove EvoPEX, you can only remove the brass ones, cheers!
@@Got2Learn thanks, I don't see any use in buying Evo pex over shark bite then.
@@mikeharris8365 🤷♂️
I've been watching videos on shark bite fittings and can see using them for hooking up PEX pipe that is easy to get to. Like in-floor, heating pipe hooked up to a manifold. that's above ground. I think copper is better for everything else and I think I can solder the fittings for a house I want to build. I picture people years from now looking at leaking Shark bite fittings and wondering why someone used them. My question is, can the Oring be replaced in the SB fitting?
O-rings are EPDM, no need to replace them.
@@Got2Learn if the fitting leaks, years in the future?
They will eventually leak, that's for sure, but so will any other type of joint, why not question those?
@@Got2Learn You think a soldered copper fitting will eventually leak?
I don't think, I know :)
From all PEX fittings I prefer Uponor expansion pex, diameter is bigger and you can re-use brass fittings and pex-a more flexible
Uponor is the best, hands down.
I only use QuestPex with brass modern pex fittings with oetiker cinch rings
Quest has bigger inside diameter than Uponor
BigG LilWayne you mean polybutylene pipe?
@@ZIBO2830
The grandfather of pex, the good grey pipe
I hate all sharkbite push fittings Genova products makes a push fitting that is made out of cpvc. They have a nut on them that you tighten to hold them together so you can sleep at night. without worrying that you’re pipes will pop apart.
We understand your love for security, Jack, and we agree! The confidence of a secure connection is unmatched. Feedback like yours is what inspired us to include the green indicator on the EvoPEX line for a visible connection.
Well said @Sharkbite Plumbing Solutions ;)
Can someone explain why the ring shows but water leaks from the connector?
Sounds like a non starter if they don't interface with copper (the only thing I'd use them for) and are non removable, and are enormous.
SharkBite needs to get rid of those sharp turns on their elbows because that will definitely affect water flow.I would use regular SharkBite fittings as a temporary fix but those evo whatevers I would not even consider.
Thanks for your feedback, Nelson! Have you seen our 45° elbows? That should help eliminate the sharp turns you mentioned: bit.ly/2WTZecF.
I doubt I'd ever use the evo-pex, it seems like a step backwards. If they can't be taken off or reused why use them at all, just use the copper crimp rings, which are probably cheaper.
You didn't mention cost compared to sharkbite.
Well at least they've left an opening for a 3rd creation that may be better than both, unless someone else does it first.
What if I use sharkbite push connector on a pex-a will it reduce the pressure. I am repositioning a 3 ft hydronic baseboard 4ft away and thinking of using pex-a with sharkbite to transition from copper to pex to connect the loop.
Big box store I use took all evo pex fitting out of stock, why? They only have reg. Shark bites
If they only fit PEX, what's the advantage? I can see guys who can't sweat copper using them (I only use SBs in an emergency), but if just on PEX, use an expander and do it right without worrying about an O-ring in 25 years.
Restricting flow, having to cut coupling out and restricted to PEX only. I'll stick to my brass ones!
Flow resistance across the project could become a problem. I really don't appreciate the lack of re usability, not so much because I reuse the a lot but rather when a redo is necessary, it can be costly in time and materials; sometimes requiring a full new run... Another dislike is the amount of force needed to affix the fitting. 55 lbs. across the day and in tight spaces can ad up. In addition, there are time on variable projects where PEX is not optimal, having a bunch of these on your truck could mean another trip to the parts house... Great vid.
😉
The evo fittings might be better to use for acidic well water situations like I have.
Honestly, you should address the water's pH in any case. Put a calcite tank on line.
Excellent comparison!
Thank you very much!!
If they're only for Pex you might as well use a pex fitting and save the money.
🤷♂️
Excellent video. I prefer using outside of the wall. Not behind the wall
;)
Thanks for using SharkBite! We’re here for you and your application of choice!
Thanks for your information ℹ️
🙏🙏🙏
Considering the flow, probably better to use 3/4" in place of 1/2" ..
Yeah.
I have two issues with the EvoPex. They are the permanency and flow rate.
MI personal opinion, I like to use shark bite fittings BUT will only use them on copper, I know its ok to uae it on PVC or PEX But due to the flexibility of the plastic I dont trust them on thoae pipes, on copper? Its great and secure!
If I want to s transition from crimp style pex to pex a.....will it work?
Not sure about that one, I will inform myself.
@@Got2Learn reason I ask , in my rv its crimp style pex b...any future issues,repairs etc I like to use pex a with expansion...thankyou
One thing that I am pretty sure of is that if you use SB on PEX-A and that something happens, you would probably not be covered, SB had problems with this, which is why they are making their own PEX now, but i'll still give you a proper answer, just waiting on SB to answer me back.
@@Got2Learn thank you and thank you for the rapid response A+ channel you have!!
My pleasure!!
can the Evo-Pex be used near a hot water tank?
For sure.
So now to preserve a flow rate I need to go from 1/2 piping to a 3/4 pipe (PEX).
Yup
@@Got2Learn ~ With PEX being cheaper than Copper I can work with that.
Hey, I'm in the last step of basement renovation and the contractor wants to bury my water inlet in the cement wall. Only problem is that there is a temporary sharkbite connection right where the cement needs to be on the inch and a half intel from the city ( Montreal ). I'm guessing the best idea would be to use a copper coupling and then transition outside the comment with copper ? let me know what you think. I got like 2 days to make a decision. Jparle Francais aussi.
I would not leave the Sharkbite in the wall.
Our fittings can be used as a permanent solution. Feel free to give our Customer Support team a call with specific application questions! We’d be happy to chat with you. 1-877-700-4242
I would go with whatever your plumber recommends or prefers; that’s the person you’re going to hassle if it doesn’t hold up well.
I have been using similar connectors from other vendors in commercial automation for years so I would not have any issue using them in a residential plumbing build. From the looks they are stainless and plastic so should withstand corrosion well. I might move up a size of tubing to make up for the internal restriction on the fittings though.
jI think they are fantastic product easy to fit we got them here in the ukj we called them a push fittings.
Flow is very important considering already PEX has a low flow rate in the first place three-quarter pex equals the same flow as half inch copper why do people do not upsize on their packs and have this very problem. A lot of people get their mind blown by the equation for volume it takes 8.2 1 inch pipes to equal the volume of a 2 inch pipe
Beg to differ. The area of 2" pipe is 1 *1* pi = pi
The area of four half inch pipes is 4 * (1/2) * (1/2) * pi = pi
Actually the ID of type L one inch pipe is slightly larger than 1" at 1.025
The ID of type L of two inch pipe is slightly under 2" at 1.985
In terms of flow rate, all the one inch pipe would have much higher friction, and lower flow depending on volume.
My error, second line, should be four one inch pipes,
Think the smaller diameter is a concern especially showers
They both use the same stupid O-ring sealing that depends on the pressure squeezing the ring to make the seal. Then, the ring(s) oxidize and water leaks. If they had brains, they would configure the ring retention system so the water pressure forces the ring into the cavity that creates the seal. Then, they would last "forever".
As it turns out, the inner diameter of a half inch pex is a little less than 5mm. So the flow rate wouldn't be hindered between two half inch PEX pipes with the new fitting. I'm not a plumber, but I would assume your flow rate would be determined by the smallest diameter of the entire system to any given fixture. in this case, as long as the fixture, pipes, fittings, etc are all equal or greater than the .485mm inner diameter of half inch plumbing, your flow rate would not be hindered more than you would expect by the PEX pipe itself. You could address that by running 3/4" tubing since it isn't much more expensive, but you run into pipe reductions between the plumbing and the fixtures, many of which are only 1/4" anyways.
I cannot believe anyone would want to add that much restriction to the flow. I didn't bother to do the math, but it sure looks like you would need to upsize the piping to the next size if you want true full flow. A regular Sharkbite is already pretty restrictive compared to copper joints, but this new EVO version is ridiculous.
ill use a sharkbite when you cant get a torch or press tool in there.....i work at apartment complexes mostly built early 70s where the the type M is failing and its pinhole leaks everywhere....we are slowly doing complete repipes
I’ve definitely used sharkbites but I don’t trust a rubber O-ring to last and not ever leak. Ever had a car with a leaky valve cover gasket? Yeah if it could be soldered on it would never leak. I only trust soldered fittings.
But in a pinch or if it’s someplace you don’t want to risk a fire use one then. That’s how I think anyways. 😊
can use for Stainless steel pipe？
What is the price difference?
Couple of bucks, EVO is more expensive.
At the end of the video you said you trust evopex more than the brass fitting. Ask yourself what is evopex’s track record? How long has it been in the market? Longevity wise it is not proven just like when the first polybutylene pipes came out.
I wasn't saying that in terms of long term reliability, just overall.
And let us not forget about durapax I repair that stuff here every day here in Middle Tennessee that stuff has been leaking everywhere it looks like someone took a razor blade and cut it three little times it starts off behind the water heater and works its way through the house most of the bad pipe was under a lawsuit after nifco bought them out and it was a clay pot color it's been a nightmare for homeowners here in Tennessee I feel sorry for people that buy a $800,000 house and have to get it repipe just a few years later
"push to connect on the EvoPex fitting is a pipe dream. PEX-a and these fittings do not go together without a hell of a lot of force.
After sweating pipe for years it hard for me to fully trust sharkbites.. but people swear by Sharkbites.. I’ve used the and never had a problem.
They just need to be installed properly and they work, the ones that have leaks are the ones that weren't installed correctly hehe