Very early on in my concealed carry life, I realized that every action one had to perform, (rack round into chamber, disengage safety, insure grip safety is depressed fully,) is an action that could be screwed up. KISS applies here.
Yep, the times here really mean nothing, keeping it simple means you won't forget that you have the safety on, you won't forget you don't have a round chambered (have seen at least one video of a guy who bought the farm because of this) and you won't mess up on a draw and safety swipe or draw and chamber a round before you are ready to go. Carrying one in the pipe with Glocks (and other striker fire guns) with fairly heavy stock trigger pulls or DA/SA guns that don't have safeties are the way to go in my opinion. With striker or DA/SA guns there are less opportunities for what could be a big mistake to happen.
You know? As I sit here and think about your comment, I can’t say that I recall of ever hearing about a military, law enforcement, or armed citizen encounter where someone was shot as a result of having to take the time to disengage a safety or chamber a round. I’m not suggesting it’s never happened, but it doesn’t seem to be a common occurrence.
This tutorial proved many things. The technical data surprised me. The difference in the time it took to engage the target between conditions was not significant. So, my motto is practice practice practice and keep safety first. Thank you HR for another very thorough tutorial.
Great presentation on the subject. But I would echo what a few others would say, that when you are in a position where you have to draw a firearm for self defense, very rarely things go according to plan. Your non-dominate hand may be engaged in any number of things, such as trying to keep an attacker at bay while you're trying to draw your firearm, thus, suddenly having to draw and work the slide may suddenly be a horrendous disadvantage. When I was in the Army I was always told to carry my handgun in condition 2, and when I was in Law Enforcement it was always condition 1. Now as just a concealed carrier, I chose to still carry in condition 1. Just my .02 cents, and I loved the presentation on the subject.
After carrying for 30 years now, and using a 1911 while standing guard the Navy, having an inserted mag with empty chamber is imo the best way to carry for 1911's (normally mag not inserted, but inserted during threat scenarios). With practice, the sweeping motion of drawing your weapon and racking the slide becomes very second nature, and takes no more time than keeping it cocked and locked. If you use your left hand to grab the holster to prevent lifting to ease removal, then using your same left hand to hold the slide while pushing the weapon up and forward, the racking of the slide is much smoother than trying to rack it after fully withdrawing and pointing the weapon. There's nothing wrong with racking the slide while lifting the weapon upward, as it is still mainly pointed at the ground and forward while doing so.
Interesting results. I wouldn't have predicted the times being so close. For me, consistently racking the slide in a real life situation and not flubbing it would be my biggest drawback to not carrying in condition 1 for a 1911 style handgun.
I prefer condition 5. If you can't unlock your safe, load your magazine and reassemble your gun in less than 3 seconds in an emergency, then do you even consider yourself a shooter? Seriously though, thanks for the video.
Just as I always suspected, "training & preparation" makes the most significant difference. Which ever carry preference one favors, with enough practice there's no advantage and/or disadvantage. In a real world situation, I don't think "there's not enough difference to make a difference." HA! Nice video...
I served in Nam as a Navy Corpsman (HM3) w/the Marines in 1966. My issued 1911 was always carried Condition 3 w/the order “Lock & load” given when we were anticipating an encounter w/the enemy.
I know a very experienced man US Army Guard and long time gunsmith and shop owner, who carried a Beretta 92FS 9mm like his military pistol. He was at gas station filling up one evening and a bad guy tried to rob him, so consistent with his army training his pistol had nothing in the chamber and so as danger approached he pulled that 9mm and short stroked the slide causing a jam. Fortunately all Mr Maggot saw was a big black handgun pointed his way causing him to flee the scene. Now he carries a DA revolver. I believe in carrying my pistol chambered and ready to go. If your experienced with them, especially if one of those striker fired weapons with the so called safety on the face of the trigger, not a good system for a novice in my opinion, especially under stress and if someone is trying to hurt or kill you...no doubt you'd be under stress. Excellent presentation, surprised somewhat with the results, very close times, but then again you are an extremely experienced individual with high competence in all types of firearms.
I would add that in condition 3 your slide rack could be fouled due to wounding or too close to your assailant, etc. I realize your study was purely on time to first shot.
Great video, as always, thank you! I heard an interesting discussion about Israeli carry, and military condition three carry in general, that brought up a good point. The threat situation is different. The military deals primarily with battle threats in groups where you have others with you, fighting as a group, with specific types of engagements that lean more towards that kind of carry working better. And, with often long periods of time in between where safety takes precedence over immediate threats in general. In regular every day carry, civilian, practice, and law-enforcement, the threats are faster, more personal, more likely to be one on one, or one on several attackers, and no holds barred as far as whether you might have one hand available, both hands available, an injury, etc. It’s sort of like picking different tools to suit the job needs better. It’s kind of hard to describe what I’m trying to say, but I think everybody gets the idea. Condition three works better for military applications, condition one works better for the types of threats average person faces. in the end, though, everybody has to pick the one they’re most comfortable with, and train around it, and choose for themselves based on their own assessments.
You describe conditions and comparative circumstances very well. Would humbly add that the Israelis had. and still do. a wide variety of sidearms and in their thinking desired a universal system that would be followed by all personnel with anything being used, no matter what had been trained on.
excellent analysis. thanks for posting it. I've carried a SIP229 (da/sa - hammer down) for several years. often though of going to a striker fired, but never felt any significant improvement. I totally agree that how you train is more important.
I don't like DA/SA hammer-fired more than SF for some mechanical reason; I prefer it because I've shot a guhzillion rounds (thanks US Navy) from the M9 platform with it and feel extremely confident with it. Well said.
Add this one Condition 0.5 -- Chambered Glock w/ trigger DEPRESSED so it only takes a 1cm slide movement to ready (you do this via disassembly and reassemble sliding a round under the extractor as you reinsert the barrel... Don't overpull the slide past the disassembly tab click)
Outstanding video, well articulated. I'm a big fan of the Hi-Power, and especially the S&W 39. To me it comes down to quick target acquisition, to not perform unnecessary tasks before sight alignment{lol, I don't want to chase that front aperture around). Thanks again y'all
Good morning Howard and HR-community, 1. I found this to be a TRULY EXCELLENT video - thank you - because: (a) it caused me to think about things I have long (many decades) ERRONEOUSLY assumed to be correct and (b) it dispelled several myths. I’ll try to explain this in the following paragraphs. 2. My professional background (40+ years) largely is in the world of USN/USMC tactical (fighter and attack) aircraft program management. For many decades during and after World War II (really up to the mid-1980’s or early-1990’s) a common fighter-community mantra was, “SPEED IS LIFE.” And, unfortunately in my opinion, that same fallacious maxim is far too often applied to lawful citizen defensive handgun operations. 3. Yes, there are some occasions when the speed with which the first (and subsequent) round(s) is (are) fired may be crucial - although I suggest a few tenths of a second difference may well be mathematically valid, but practically meaningless. For example, the patrol officer who pulls a vehicle over for a “routine” traffic stop, only to be confronted by an armed felon when he approaches the car’s door. BUT, for legal civilian defense, how likely is such a situation? The plain fact is, it’s exceedingly unlikely. We all understand that the rare emergency trip to a pharmacy in a bad part of town at 0300 or to an ATM 0100 may very infrequently be required. However - and I am not discussing the law enforcement situations - I respectfully suggest such scenarios are EXTREMELY unusual. 4. What (imho) is FAR more probable (for the defensively armed, smart, and lawful citizen) is hearing the glass in your residence’s back door break at 0230 or having a few young hooligans raise hell on your property at 0030 on Saturday morning. Now, I believe this is a VERY important distinction. Why? 5. For several reasons: 5a. The police officer is a trained professional and he’s awake (even alert) when he makes that traffic stop or investigates an unsecured back entryway at a Main Street store . . . but when that glass on my home’s backdoor breaks at 0230, I’m likely to arise from a sound sleep and be less than entirely alert. 5b. We civilians may (this happened to me) have a child return from college a day or two before he was expected, he unlocks the door at 0400 (having driven all night to get home ahead of schedule), but all I hear is a “likely prowler” on my home’s lower floors. 5c. There’s loud, ceaseless banging on my front door at 0200, but it’s actually a drunken neighbor at the wrong (near-identically appearing) townhouse. 6. In all of the foregoing examples - and there are countless others - SPEED ISN’T LIFE, in fact SPEED CAN BE DEATH. Misjudgments occur when any individual isn’t fully alert / awake AND isn’t adequately trained (which absolutely is the norm for most citizens who own one or more defensive firearms). And these deficiencies can ONLY exacerbate the possibility of a tragedy. 7. Therefore - and this is my “bottom line” - I really WANT multiple safeties (and I refer to much more than the mechanical devices on a firearm). A top-tier double action revolver or a traditional DA//SA autoloader (in DA) doesn’t have the short trigger pull of a 1911A1, a BHP, or a Glock (etc.) . . . and, imho, that’s generally a VERY GOOD thing. Moreover, even polymer frame / striker fired modern autoloaders can have thumb safeties. Although I fully understand some thought and practice is required to disengage the safety (and that mechanical safety could also make the trigger pull slightly less light and crisp), I respectfully suggest the advantages of a slightly more deliberate first shot FAR, FAR outweigh the disadvantage of approximately a tenth of second additional time until the first round exits the muzzle. Those extra tenths of second just might prevent a life-ruining tragedy. 8. Finally, I want to extol H&K’s USP (traditional DA/SA) design. It has an external hammer (decidedly beneficial in several ways, including re-holstering). It also has a combined safety and de-cocker . . . so the hammer can be de-cocked (similar to a Sig P Series semiautomatic) AND it can additionally be carried in Condition One (similar to a 1911A1). The “best of both worlds” . . . a very smart and safe design concept, imho.
I recently started to train with pistols and one of the first things I realized was how similar it is to learning to play a musical instrument. Muscle memory is the key, and in training that muscle memory we have to fight all kinds of tendencies, fear instincts, laziness, etc, and just like with an instrument, when you practice fundamentals, you start slow and get faster as you build that muscle memory. So I suspect a highly trained and practiced Mossad or IDF pistol shooter will get that first shot off in a very similar time to someone who trained with condition 1 or 0.5 (striker). I've watched them do it and the racking happens in a very fluid movement as they bring the pistol to the ready position. It's impressive to watch and had to have taken thousands of practice movements to perfect.
Interesting test. One point I don't think you mentioned is that carrying on an empty chamber can prove problematic if an attacker lays hands on you while you are drawing. I have practiced racking the slide on my leg, but I've never had to do it while somebody was trying to overpower me.
This is very interesting HR, it is very surprising to see how little time differences you had. Watching how fast the Mossad could get shots off from condition 3 was impressive. But of course they all had extensive practice.
@@papimaximus95 your welcome to it. I don't want to try it when I am rolling around in Del Mar Terraces parking lot while trying to control a suspects knife hand, retain possession of a my weapon and hopefully not have my head bashed against the curb. There is a reason no North American police department authorizes chamber empty carry.
@@ftdefiance1 "There is a reason no North American police department authorizes chamber empty carry." I don't think anyone on the planet is suggesting LEO not have a round chambered.
Ftdefiance 1...EXACTLY....! ! ! By far most self defense shootings take place within arms reach...so drawing with one hand while warding off the attacker with the other is a critical skill...empty chamber carry takes away that ability...
Thank you for pronouncing Walther correctly and not going through the pantomime of showing us how to make a gun safe just a simple " by the way it's safe". As to be expected from you, very thorough.
Excellent video! Clearly underlines the point to TRAIN with whatever firearm you (have, like, are comfortable, or suits your need). I kind of like a heavier feel, but do not expect everyone else to be of the same mind.
Quick-drawn is a possible scenario but do we overemphasize it when most situations where you'll have time to wish you had a gun include that several seconds before you'd be firing it
Another factor to consider is more "real world;" what if you have something in your off-hand that you don't want to loose control off? Like a child or loved one, or something else of great value OR that hand is involved in grappling or fighting off your adversary. That changed me from a 1911 Condition 2 carry to a Condition 1 carry. Good video, good analysis. Now do Patrol Ready shotguns.
Exactly. Conditions 0, 1 and 2 require only one hand to make the firearm ready to fire. Condition 3 requires both hands to make ready, ignoring something like a belt charge, which I expect would ruin the time on target. This is why I only carry DA/SA or DAO.
@@Fly_Away_2 Agreed, and most encounters are close contact, so you will likely need one arm. However, I especially don’t like condition 0mor 1 in appendix carry. I don’t want a tiny sear edge with a spring under tension be the only thing between me and losing my junk. I’ll carry a striker at 3 o’clock, but not appendix. Mostly, I’ll stick with my P01 and it’s DA/SA thank you very much.
It boils down to safety in carry verses efficiency of fire. The one time I had to fire my duty weapon it was fast and ugly against two vicious dogs charging for me. The lead dog was a shepherd mix. Turn, draw and fire. No time to aim or negotiate a safety. I was carrying a Beretta 96 with safety off. So I'd have to say double action/single action probably provides the best balance. Interestingly, the sound of that one shot stopped the attack and the lead dog only suffered a superficial wound. Thankfully I escaped from a bad mauling. BTW - dog lovers tend to get incensed at this story. I'm no fainting flower. I've dealt with dogs a lot over my L.E. career. That was the only time I had two try to attack me directly and unprovoked.
My introduction to the 1911 involved condition 3 and a military flap leather holster. At the advice of a range aster, a WWII combat veteran, I sewed a wedge of leather into the lower portion of the flap (just above the hammer). When drawing the pistol, I rotated it 90 degrees to the left (counter clockwise), caught the rear sight on the top of the leather wedge and, pushing firmly against the holster, chambered a round, immediately placing the pistol in condition 0. Because of my prior knowledge of the 1911, M1 and M14, I became my unit's armorers in the army. When I discussed my modification with the battalion armorers, a crusty E-7 (with CIB), he showed me a seperate basket of like modified holsters that he issued only to soldiers who knew how to use them. Officially a No-no, but, in combat, who's looking?
FYI - The "Israeli Method" is not unique to the Mossad, it is/was the standard pistol training style from the founding of the state in 1948 until at least very recently. It came about due to the plethora of pistols in service and the impossibility of training police, soldiers, Mossad, Shabak, ElAl security, on specific, widely issued handguns. A standard "Condition 3" was practical for safety and the carrying of so many different guns. I ran an armory there for a number of years, and out of 40-50 handguns, I had very few duplicates.
Good morning HR. Enjoyed the video. Cocked and locked for me with a 1911. I am so conditioned that my thumb swipes on the draw even without a safety on a double action or striker fired gun. Would like to see a DA revolver added to the mix for comparison.
I think the biggest factors in carry condition is the drop safe ability of that firearm. The high power and most 1911s do not have a firing pin block and can and will fire when dropped, even with the hammer still back. A big reason for Israeli carry was a non drop safe Hi Power was dangerous and the troops were not particularly well trained. If a gun has a firing pin block, but the only way to keep it safe is a manual thumb safety, use it. If something gets into that trigger guard and could potentially pull the fairly light and short trigger you could be in trouble. The real test for different carry conditions is by not using your weak hand, because you could very well be in a situation where you are holding off and attacker, or holding back someone for protection, or possibly just in a grapple situation where getting both your hands to the gun is difficult. For people uncomfortable with the ONE IN THE CHAMBER, I recommend to carry condition 3 with the gun cocked like it would regularly be and carry it for a while and everyday count the amount of times the hammer or striker has dropped on it... It's probably less than 1.
Let me explain something quickly about the reason the Mossad adopted the condition three carry method. The Firearms they were Carrie, P35 Browning's again, were aging to the point where their safety mechanisms were becoming inconsistent. They adopted a method by which they literally could draw, Rach, and fire quite consistently. They even at one point had a holster that some would use that you could grab the firearm and push it Forward rack the firearm before even left the holster. The reason why the Marine Corps and the Army carry these guns in condition three is to make them officer proof period in 1902 with Browning presented the Barbie with their very first officer's pistol. The 1902 Browning in 32 I believe, a lieutenant asked him why it didn't have a safety on it like many of the other newfangled automatic pistols. John Browning looked at him a little bit puzzled and immediately responded with the concept that an officer is supposed to know which end the bullet comes out of. Obviously with the intent to convey that stupid people shouldn't be handling firearms. I would love to applaud you for accurately defining the decocking lever on the Smith & Wesson which is actually the same thing as Carl Walther designed in 1929, and it is a decocker, it is not a safety. It is only used as a safety as a secondary mechanism. The problem with that particular mechanism. When you put your hand on top of the slide to Rack it especially to do a clearance drill. You could easily hit that decocker and disable the firearm. That is why I do not and have never suggested using those mechanisms on firearms that police or military should carry or anybody else who's going to carry the gun to defend themselves. It is one of the things I instructed Michigan State Police to take the firearm back to where they purchased it from, because many of them had bought the Beretta 92, and see if they could trade for a firearm but did not have that device. I would suggest one of several firearms of the 1980s and early 1990s era. That way you did not have the chance of disabling your firearm should you have to do a clearance drill or reload it instead of using the slide release you were actually racking the slide and inadvertently disabling the firearm and getting yourself killed in the process. I do to ensure cure the concept that safety with a firearm exist between the ears of the operator and his competence. Not with the accoutrements of the firearm itself. Condition zero is to carry the firearm with the hammer cocked without the safety on. That is stupidity on the level that even a Marine Corps officer has never thought of. If you want to know how to carry a Browning design firearm, you listen to John Moses Browning. Condition zero is the condition that every police officer carries their Glock in. Because if the sear on a Glock releases the striker for any reason whatsoever, the firearm discharges its payload. There are virtually no safety mechanisms on a Glock. Not a single one. The little lever on the trigger is there just to bulshit people. It is not a safety of any kind for any reason. How police agencies Across the Nation have not been sued over this is beyond me the firearm is devoid of any safety mechanism whatsoever. There are a few that literally completely cock and release the striker through the trigger. The Glock is that one of them. You are really slow at condition too. At the time that you actually finish racking the slide the firearm should be going off. You are waiting till after you get the firearm racked. The firearm should be going off almost instantaneously after you have a round in battery. At least the way you are racking the slide. My first large semi auto service pistol was acz variant that had double action capability but I still carried it cocked and locked. Do not compromise on my safety or anybody else's, if you're going to carry a firearm with a safety on it carry the with the safety engaged. I also need to add that the decocker is not a safety. But I also do not carry firearms without an external safety. I did for a short time and I was never comfortable with it except that that was a gun that was always concealed. It was a Walther PPKs. I use that for a backup for a while. I would like to add that in actual gunfights, the first anatomically substantial hit wins the gunfight, pretty much always. That has been found to be required that from the point of time that you get to your pistol and put around on target has to be done in 1.5 seconds that you are almost four-tenths of a second away from that criteria. However you are started with your hands in front of you. Not from the time that you put your hand on the gun. So you may be doing pretty good here. But I'm still not going to muck up the carry of a firearm by not carrying it the way it was intended to be carried. I carried a revolver for decades, at least twenty years after I was training officers to transition into semi-autos. It's not that I could shoot them or that I didn't know how to carry them, I just never felt under gun with a revolver. The second-highest Firepower firearm on the street today is a 357 revolver it follows the 38 revolver very closely. Firepower is defined by how many rounds you fired that took effect against the target compared to how many were fired it has nothing to do with how many bullets are in the gun.
Excellent as always! Thank you. Not surprised at all to hear your analysis. With a good trainer, and quite a bit of practice, mainly dry-fire, one can time about 1.8 sec from condition 3 with more or less same accuracy as displayed in this video. 2.3 - 2.5 sec would be a good time if the draw is from under a T shirt , loose shirt or a light jacket. Now, regarding the Mossad… well I don’t know about them.. but who really knows? Almost everybody else, police, the equivalent of the Secret Service agents, Air Marshals, SWAT teams of the sort, IDF SF units, and citizens are trained and use cond. 3. Under some special circumstance like an , imminent contact they would have the handgun in their hands ready with a round in the chamber and in the rare case someone still carries the FN Hi power or the SA Jericho, with the safety on. Some would carry the gun in in the holster with a chamber loaded and safety on, if there is a safety. They all transitioned years ago to….. Glock 19C or 19.
This is by far the best video I have ever seen for understanding these conditions. I had not put that throught process through start to end. Honestly Funk perfect demonstration and presenting the facts. It is well worth the watch when looking to begin conceal and carry.
Interesting results. I would be a little nervous about condition 3, as it's a large movement. Due to the close proximity of a large number of attacks and the stress of the situation, racking of the slide might be an issue. However, once again, training is key.
HR. I really appreciate your firearms perspectives. Your videos are well organized and reflect your extensive knowledge and law enforcement experience. I especially appreciate your perspective on the 10 most unnecessary tactical features now featured on many handguns today. I agree completely. Most are gimmicks to sell handguns.
As a retired LEO, because of your video, I have decided to carry without a round in the chamber. The need is not needed to be hot all of the time as when I was on duty.
Condition 3 is like trying to put on your seat belt right before a crash DO NOT CARRY ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER. Always always always carry safety off with a round in the chamber. You will always be faster and have less steps that you'll probably fumble with in an adrenaline dump situation like when your life is in imminent danger.
Semper Fi, brother. Do you think the slower result for condition one had anything to do with added caution due to drawing a hot weapon? TBH, I'd be a touch more concerned about shooting myself when drawing a fully cocked and locked pistol. BTW... Nice Steyr! Love that piece! Adventure ever on my friend, Phat🏹
I don't think so. When I was drawing I was not consciously concerned about shooting myself. That said, I did notice the act of sweeping off the safety took an instant.
Interesting. As one who scratched his head for years of being required to carry a 1911 with an empty chamber, in a cavalry-style holster and with a lanyard attached, this is surprising. Practice certainly helps, but it's tough to replicate stressors. This definitely disproves the age old gripe of "having to call time out" to chamber a round.
Believe me, I had the same concerns in the Marine Corps when I was required to carry in condition 3. As I said early in the video, I have been wanting to conduct this experiment for a long time largely to satisfy my own curiosity. Thanks for watching James!
I believe that the real issue is not how fast the particular type of carry is but the potential of screwing it up under pressure and the difficulty to do it while injured, in a confined space, or while engaged in hand to hand combat. Anything you have to do, other then pull the trigger, adds a layer of complexity to getting your gun into the fight. In reality, the double action trigger, and the striker fired gun function in the same manner with slight differences in the weight and travel of the trigger. However, carrying a gun without a round in the chamber, is purposely, and needlessly putting yourself at a disadvantage, in my opinion.
Interested you carry a Hipower. In 1970 I was put off the Hipower in the Royal Marines as it bit back. There recent intro of the Girsan P35 with its small mods got me interested again for sentimental reasons. Now it is my favorite carry gun due to its simplicity. I removed the mag safety and added a BHSprings trigger. I need to practice carry 3 more as I believe it is the safest method. It is full size yet fairly slim to carry IWB and it has no added unnecessary parts to snag. I have an early S&W M&P40 trigger job and better sights. Very accurate but bulky, and an M&P9 2.0 with a safety. Great shooter and very accurate, but bulky. That’s where the Hipower fits the bill. Thank you for your videos they are great teaching tips. When I was in the military only officers carried side arms.
Thank you Patrick. I really like the old P35. It has great handling and pointing characteristics. As you noted, it’s also a great carry piece because of its slim features. The Girsan is a great modern iteration of the classic design. I hope it serves you well for a long time.
Point taken about training and preparation being more important. Condition two appears inapplicable for Striker-fired polymer wonders. Didn't carry in condition one until buying a micro 9 with an external safety.
One thing to consider with condition 3 or 1 is the chance you may fumble something under stress. Yes training can mitigate this to a certain degree but adding one more step increases the chance for Murphy's law to enter. Condition 2 and 0 is just point and shoot, less chance for a fumble, a little faster and accurate.
Great tutorial on carry conditions, HR. I think your group results with the Steyr pistol proves something about striker fired, no external safety pistols. The draw from a kydex holster is noticeably smoother, faster to me. This realization coming from an old 1970-90’s 1911, Col. Cooper fan. Steel framed, hammer fired pistoleros don’t need to preach to me. Believe me gents, I get it, still love 1911, Browning Hi Powers. Odd anecdote I heard about condition “0” carry. Dangerous sounding story about British commandos creeping and peeping thru the Burmese jungles with their FN P-35’s chamber loaded, safety off. WWII era. I guess the Enfield 303 or the Sten 9MM were too hard to swing on line in the thick bush? Figured the P-35 was in a full flap holster, not the quickest to draw from.
There's a reason those military firearms don't have match grade triggers. M-16's measure around 7 lbs, and the P-35 insn't a whole lot lighter. You could probably even get away with conditoin 0 when carrying a 1911 due to the grip safety. Even so, I wouldn't reccoment it.
Provably that rumor about the british in Malaysia is not true but came from the verified fact that the SAS in their HP years used to carry thier pistols in condition 0 in hostage rescue operation and CQB
What might have been fun? is if you threw in a Colt SAA 1873 clone from the draw to the fire. It might have beat them all do to grip angle/pointability
Just as a comparison and FYI..... In 8 yr of running speed steel matches, the best shooters could manage to break 1 sec to first hit, a very few could occasionally reach near to .75 sec. Understand, this was generally using highly prepared and slicked-up weapons and specifically designed holsters; but from "surrender" position. I would venture that the average competitor, barring neophytes and Master class, would avg 1-1.5 seconds. Little difference, in reality, from your numbers, once style of presentation and conditions are factored in. I generally carry cond 3. Your .32 sec difference between C3 and C2/1 is 1/3 that of a quick reaction time of a potential opponent; rendering the difference moot. Conclusion? Other than a surprise attack or being sniped, a trained individual can usually beat an opponent's OODA loop regardless on carry condition Thanks for the excellent presentation
Mr. Funk, the range part was great. This is what I do most of the time I'm practicing - draw and fire with shot timer. Flicking the safety off is slowest by 2/10 second in general with all pistols. Double action is the best. My Kahr and revolver shooting verify this with Kahr better (smoother and lighter trigger pull). My times match your times, too. Kahr I can get down to 1.6 best times. Cycling the slide must change the draw stroke. I do use a 15 yard target for this drill. Would have liked to see the Model 19 in this test just to compare the revolver.
Outstanding video. The detailed analysis and explanations of the carry conditions as applied to various types of handguns are excellent. I appreciate the clarity and coverage you provide in your videos. Thank you for the valuable information in your presentations. Please keep up the good work.
As you noted, it's a training issue I recently took a class with my g2c, which has a thumb safety, and because I've been mostly practicing with my revolvers, a couple of times I forgot to wipe the safety off during the presentation I am now working more with the g2c, because I intend to take more classes, and I'm not going to slow the class down by using a revolver
I wanted to share an observation I made about your experiment. During the third draw in Condition 1, you momentarily caught your thumb as you put your hand on the pistol. I believe this is why your time of 2.07 seconds was higher than for the other three draws. If you exclude that data point, the average for the Steyr falls to 1.81 seconds, which is the lowest of all conditions and probably what you were expecting before the experiment. The glitch on your third draw is something that could have happened with any of the other carry conditions and is therefore not a fair reflection on the carry method. By the way, I am a newer shooter with about a year's experience and have enjoyed watching and learning from your videos.
Provided you practice, I would think in most threat situations (for EDC) condition 3 would be acceptable unless the treat already has a gun on you in which case conditions 2 and 1 aren't going to help much if he'd already drawn and you have not. Also a lot of CCW setups may not provide a quick or snag-free draw. I prefer to err on safety unless you're a LEO and / or practice regularly. If I'm in a higher threat area and I try not to be, I try to assess possible cover like cars, doorways and solid barriers since I don't assume my actions will be faster than my threat.
Sir, Thank You Very Much for the informative video. Details and comparison you demonstrated are very important to me. I read about why the Israelis favored the Condition 3, is because when they started as a government agency, they used various types of pistols for their operatives such as the Walther .32ACP and different types of World War 2 and Post War varieties, thus make their weapon presentation / deployment consistent.
Great presentation as always, and the only thing I'll add for consideration: there are many videos on TH-cam of CCers (some off-duty LE) suddenly caught in a situation where they needed to shoot or return fire, and the sudden stress and adrenaline overload takes hold, and they try to fire with no round in the chamber. In the second or less it takes to cycle a round, sometimes it proved too late.
Your experiments are always very fair, professional, thorough and honest! I’d say the only real disadvantage to condition 3 carry is the necessity of 2 hands to get the pistol into action.
I carry the s&w shield 2.0 with a full magazine, 1 in the chamber and safety disengaged. Please don't worry, the trigger is fully covered even when I draw. I'm totally comfortable with this and i just want 1 less step to have to contend with should I have no other choice but to draw my firearm.
Very interesting. Would you consider possibly in the future doing a similar test, but perhaps comparing the draw times for firearms carried in a retention holster (such as a Safariland) vs a regular non-retention holster?
I still have my duty Safariland 070. Loved it! After an awful lot of practice under different conditions, I was reliably as fast as I needed to be and never felt slowed having to defeat the safeguards.
As long as your support arm is functioning and not preoccupied, you have the physical strength needed to rapidly work the slide without jamming a round, and you have no need for immediate accurate followup shots, there should be nothing to worry about when using condition 3 or a DA/SA trigger.
I don't know about today but way back when I was in Army was also 3. I always thought 2 required safety on. No matter what condition your shooting was again impressive.
Thanks Tom. In condition 2, it’s not possible to apply the safety on a 1911. With something like my S&W M39, it is completely doable. Thanks for watching!
There you go again, teasing me with that m39!!!! With the Third Gen Smiths (5906 and 3913s) we were trained to thumb up the decocker/safety during the initial grab of the gun while still in the holster. That worked well for me and my wife as the 92f was her duty weapon. The startle and need for an fast as possible draw in the civilian world (1.2 sec) is probably rare? So most of the conditions mentioned would do? My only concern with an empty chamber is your non-firing hand might be otherwise occupied? When approaching danger, either go the other way (most desirable) or your gun should already be in your hand. As always, a well thought out and well presented content that is useful.
This was very interesting. Of course I’m a revolver guy but still I thought it was rather interesting. It appears to me from the numbers that Jeff Cooper would give us that on a practical level there is no distinction as far as time. There’s a time actually going for your gun has confused the bad guy and in the midst of that confusion he just got shot with whichever method you’re using. The times that I have carried 1911 I always felt uncomfortable with cocked and locked. So I always carried one in the chamber and hammer down. But I feel comfortable now knowing that the speed is not that significantly different as far as first shot. Thank you for the video. Again interesting.😊
The shorter slide length allows for a faster draw too and the Steyr with 2 hundreds slower is so little that it might be just from canting the wrist more. I'd love to try those sights. It's definitely down to training, but there'll always be time added. That can be a huge safety plus dealing with someone h2h. I recently met someone that is transporting those that got nothing to lose and he prefers condition 3. But something can go wrong with racking the slide pushing out, the round may not chamber as intended compared to having all the time in the world before the stress is applied including a press check. 0.3 of a second is quite some time...enough for a follow up shot. I think that's preferable for CC and one doesn't always have the luxury of both hands. I was told that some see racking the slide as an intimidation tool just like the old 'hear me pumping that shotgun' BS. Some just aren't impressed and I would never rely on that. For those that rarely use their sidearm condition 3 is a good idea. Idk if you already have the footage for it but it'd be interesting to see classic DAO (that you know quite well) vs. DA revolvers and the other options for first shots and 5 shot strings but without the variable of holsters with timing shot to shot. Does anyone still make a new DAO semi-auto pistol in the classic sense? EDIT: typo
Excellent video. With your skills it seems there is very little difference in speed or accuracy. I on the other hand excel with cocked and locked with the 1911 pistols and hammer down on double action revolvers. I can't master striker fired polymer pistols no matter how I try. Thank you for sharing. 👍
I was surprised how close the times were and the shot groups. It would be neat to see a comparison between you and a new shooter doing these exact drills. I’m sure with your training and background it helped. Very best video to watch with my coffee on a Saturday morning post hurricane Ian.
Great observation. An expert pistol shooter vs an average Joe. Not a comparison that relates to real world novice taking advice. This should be how an expert can crunch time between carry conditions, not what is best for the average guy.
@@hrfunk as an average Joe I strive to do the best I can with what I've got to do it with. So I'm not entirely sure the other guy's notion there should be a distinction between and 'expert' and 'the rest of us' is on point.
Although I knew about the carry conditions, This was a very interesting video..I carry my Cz p-01 in condition 2; ….But at times when I want to be extra safe I carry condition 7,… Leave the gun at home and just have the receipt for it in my holster…..
I like the decocker pistols the best for a few reasons. I am a lefty. The gun rides on my left hip. Pulling the gun and disengaging a safety with the left hand is pretty hard to do as opposed to a righty doing the same action. With one in the pipe and the double action trigger pull for number one shot, life is better for me. The second reason for the decocker pistols for ME, is they are safe if one uses the decocker prior to reholstering. I do not have to worry about holding a hammer and slowly lowering it to make it not fire or engaging a safety. Again, I am operating from the backwards side of the gun being a lefty. Lastly, as I age, physical limitations come with the years. Arthritis is affecting my hands. The decocker pistols seem to be a lot easier for me. I have a handful of striker fired pistols but have transitioned to the decockers. That is just me. Everyone has to find what works best for THEM.
IMHO, if you don't plan on practicing much and just need something for self defense, then choose a revolver. If you do plan on practicing or are already experienced, then carry what and how you want.
ghee who'd a thought this would be controversial...😜 ... Your last statement is the most important of all. Train how you carry. Nothing is certain. Thanks for another insightful video Chief. 👍
Also do all options w/ gun already in-hand after 5-10 burpees Seen vids of cops running gun in-hand then shooting so handling safely w/ high stress and activity is a foreseeable situation
As I mentioned below, I was not trying to prove categorically which carry condition was the best. I was simply trying to compare them fairly in terms of time and accuracy.
I'd say it depends on carry method (open/concealed) and if you have other things in hand. My friend use to carry condition 3 open carry. But she started carrying condition 1 when she realized that at a rest stop she has her daughter with her. She wouldn't have the free hand when the bad guy says go.
I agree. As I said, however, there are some people who are required to carry in condition 3. The purpose of the video was to explore the extent to which they are handicapped by doing so.
As always a good topic and video. Maybe you could do a another on the different retention levels of holsters and how they affect your draw time and speed. Just a thought. Thanks for the great videos and their content.
As you can probably tell, I'm new to your channel and just watching through a lot of your videos. Hope the comments on old videos aren't a bother. Anyway, I have no idea what the statistics are, but I have often wondered, mathematically speaking, if an individual is more likely to experience a negligent discharge than an armed self-defense encounter. Assuming NDs are more common I wonder if carrying in condition 3 would reduce the ND percentage to level that would be more desirable than the difference carrying in condition 1 or 2 and encountering a self defense shooting situation would pose. Additionally, i think everyone would agree, well most reasonable folks, that carrying cond 3 is better than not carrying for anyone not confident in carrying cond 1 or 2 but still competent with their firearm. Impossible question to answer but interesting food for thought especially considering your excellent presentation.
Thanks Brad. No problem at all with comments on older videos. I don’t think there are any definitive statistics on negligent discharges as compared to defensive firearm use. To your point, I think (as does the military) that condition 3 reduces the potential for an unintentional discharge. It also slows the employment of a handgun for defensive purposes. Based upon my testing, the delay is minimal, but measurable UNDER IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES. Under other circumstances, the delay might be more significant. I would recommend that if you’re intending to carry in condition 3, you train extensively with your handgun under any/all conceivable circumstances.
Excellent explanation of carry conditions. However, when it comes to condition 2, I diverge from conventional thought. I do not carry a 1911 on my person but do take one in my car often enough and I always have it in condition 2. I do not pinch the hammer between thumb & finger, nor do I put my thumb on the hammer spur to lower it. I place my thumb against the face of the hammer and there is almost zero chance that the hammer will slip. Most criticism of condition 2 is directed toward the 1911 but no one ever criticizes SA/DA handguns without a decocker as unsafe when placed in condition 2. Why is that? Lowering the hammer is essentially the same as on a 1911. No matter the handgun, placing the thumb against the face of the hammer is the best way of lowering the hammer with minimal chance of it slipping. In the literally many thousands of times I've done it, I've had no incidents of the hammer slipping... ever.
Excellent video as always, just my opinion and I may be wrong, but I think that you slow down condition 1 with the HP compared to the others pistols because the small sight notch in the HP slow you down a little bit. Not because the action taked to disengage the manual safety
One problem I see with Cond 3 is that it is more complicated to reholster it in the condition it was drawn or that after reholstering the gun one is carrying in a different condtion. A problem Cond 0/1/2 do not have.
At the range , when all conditions are under your control, there isn't much difference in the times. Please give it another go, with a clipboard in your off hand and a pen in your dominant hand. I was issued a Sig P226 in 1984/5 and carrying a DA/SA with the chamber loaded is the best use of a defensive handgun. Like tony york (below) said; the more steps to go through to get a shot off, makes for more opportunities for errors and slip-ups. (Try it with a wet Coke in your hand and your fingers wet.) Thank You.
As I mentioned in the video, I was just trying to explore the degree to which individuals who choose condition 3 or those required to use that method are handicapped. I was not advocating its use. That said, if someone uses that condition, it would be prudent to avoid doing things that impair the use of both hands when/if a threat might be encountered.
Just my two cents: The fact that you were looking for differences due to the condition[s] of the firearms, the differences in time to fire was attributed to those conditions. In watching the shooting portion of the video, however, my observation was that you struggled more with unholstering the Browning Hi Power than you did with the other firearms. The time differences were probably due more to that than the condition[s] of the firearms. It would have been interesting to see the same pistol (if that was possible) used to fire all 4 of the conditions tested, removing the ease of access issue, to see if any of the conditions had a significant impact on performance.
Each carry should be used depending on the circumstance and environment IMO. I usually carry condition 3 Israeli carry but if the circumstance and environment call for the other carry options then utilize those when needed etc.. Excellent video thanks for the vdeo and time 👍
nice - HR, under no condition would I like to face off with you regardless of your carry condition! I also try to keep aware of Colonel Coopers awareness conditions. If you go through life in condition "white", it probably doesn't matter what your carry condition is.
Another observation and take away: DA/SA hammer and striker fired pistols have no appreciable difference in first shot time and accuracy with a trained individual.
I appreciate your effort for this video. It looked like you had a couple snags when drawing the steyr, which likely would have moved it to the fastest time as well as most accurate, if you had made clean draws on all shots. I also think there's a very low percentage of daily carriers who carry single actions in uncovered owb holsters. I have no problem with s/a guns, I just don't believe they're carried much any more.
I had better and worse draws with each handgun. That’s why I used the average time of five shots. Regarding the declining use of S/A pistols, I think your right. Oddly, shooters managed to use them effectively for the better part of a century before somebody figured out they were too difficult to employ.
That actually kind of blew my mind. I was expecting Condition One to be fastest and most accurate. It not only wasn't but there was hardly and difference in any of the Conditions. I would like to see if using a 1911 for Condition One would have made any difference, but I bet it wouldn't have made much, if any, difference. Very interesting video. Zeke
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Very early on in my concealed carry life, I realized that every action one had to perform, (rack round into chamber, disengage safety, insure grip safety is depressed fully,) is an action that could be screwed up. KISS applies here.
Yep, the times here really mean nothing, keeping it simple means you won't forget that you have the safety on, you won't forget you don't have a round chambered (have seen at least one video of a guy who bought the farm because of this) and you won't mess up on a draw and safety swipe or draw and chamber a round before you are ready to go. Carrying one in the pipe with Glocks (and other striker fire guns) with fairly heavy stock trigger pulls or DA/SA guns that don't have safeties are the way to go in my opinion. With striker or DA/SA guns there are less opportunities for what could be a big mistake to happen.
You know? As I sit here and think about your comment, I can’t say that I recall of ever hearing about a military, law enforcement, or armed citizen encounter where someone was shot as a result of having to take the time to disengage a safety or chamber a round. I’m not suggesting it’s never happened, but it doesn’t seem to be a common occurrence.
@@hrfunk That may well be the case, but murphy's law does exist.
Yep. At any given time a meteor could fall from the sky and crush us. Mr. Murphy would likely get a kick out of that.
will you also forget to pull the trigger? and will the trigger be subject to murphy's law too? needless worry over thumb safety
This tutorial proved many things. The technical data surprised me. The difference in the time it took to engage the target between conditions
was not significant.
So, my motto is practice practice practice and keep safety first.
Thank you HR for another very thorough tutorial.
My pleasure Pete. I’m glad you liked it!
Great presentation on the subject. But I would echo what a few others would say, that when you are in a position where you have to draw a firearm for self defense, very rarely things go according to plan. Your non-dominate hand may be engaged in any number of things, such as trying to keep an attacker at bay while you're trying to draw your firearm, thus, suddenly having to draw and work the slide may suddenly be a horrendous disadvantage. When I was in the Army I was always told to carry my handgun in condition 2, and when I was in Law Enforcement it was always condition 1. Now as just a concealed carrier, I chose to still carry in condition 1. Just my .02 cents, and I loved the presentation on the subject.
Thanks Chris I'm glad you liked it. Your points are well taken.
After carrying for 30 years now, and using a 1911 while standing guard the Navy, having an inserted mag with empty chamber is imo the best way to carry for 1911's (normally mag not inserted, but inserted during threat scenarios). With practice, the sweeping motion of drawing your weapon and racking the slide becomes very second nature, and takes no more time than keeping it cocked and locked. If you use your left hand to grab the holster to prevent lifting to ease removal, then using your same left hand to hold the slide while pushing the weapon up and forward, the racking of the slide is much smoother than trying to rack it after fully withdrawing and pointing the weapon. There's nothing wrong with racking the slide while lifting the weapon upward, as it is still mainly pointed at the ground and forward while doing so.
Interestingly, a lot of the people I know who prefer condition 3 are Navy veterans. Thanks for watching!
Interesting results. I wouldn't have predicted the times being so close. For me, consistently racking the slide in a real life situation and not flubbing it would be my biggest drawback to not carrying in condition 1 for a 1911 style handgun.
I prefer condition 5. If you can't unlock your safe, load your magazine and reassemble your gun in less than 3 seconds in an emergency, then do you even consider yourself a shooter? Seriously though, thanks for the video.
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching.
California, New York and New Jersey are taking notes.
Otherwise known as condition Aussie?
Oh… I thought you were serious, that’s what I can do!
Ice station zebra, except m16 disassembled in the dark
Just as I always suspected, "training & preparation" makes the most significant difference. Which ever carry preference one favors, with enough practice there's no advantage and/or disadvantage. In a real world situation, I don't think "there's not enough difference to make a difference." HA! Nice video...
Thank you, and I agree training is the most significant factor.
I served in Nam as a Navy Corpsman (HM3) w/the Marines in 1966. My issued 1911 was always carried Condition 3 w/the order “Lock & load” given when we were anticipating an encounter w/the enemy.
Thanks Doc. Something tells me there are still sailors, soldiers, airmen, and Marines who are ordered to carry their handguns in that manner.
I know a very experienced man US Army Guard and long time gunsmith and shop owner, who carried a Beretta 92FS 9mm like his military pistol. He was at gas station filling up one evening and a bad guy tried to rob him, so consistent with his army training his pistol had nothing in the chamber and so as danger approached he pulled that 9mm and short stroked the slide causing a jam. Fortunately all Mr Maggot saw was a big black handgun pointed his way causing him to flee the scene. Now he carries a DA revolver. I believe in carrying my pistol chambered and ready to go. If your experienced with them, especially if one of those striker fired weapons with the so called safety on the face of the trigger, not a good system for a novice in my opinion, especially under stress and if someone is trying to hurt or kill you...no doubt you'd be under stress. Excellent presentation, surprised somewhat with the results, very close times, but then again you are an extremely experienced individual with high competence in all types of firearms.
Thanks Sergeant Major!
I would add that in condition 3 your slide rack could be fouled due to wounding or too close to your assailant, etc. I realize your study was purely on time to first shot.
That's true. I was not trying to factor in every potential problem that could occur during a defensive presentation.
Great video, as always, thank you! I heard an interesting discussion about Israeli carry, and military condition three carry in general, that brought up a good point. The threat situation is different. The military deals primarily with battle threats in groups where you have others with you, fighting as a group, with specific types of engagements that lean more towards that kind of carry working better. And, with often long periods of time in between where safety takes precedence over immediate threats in general. In regular every day carry, civilian, practice, and law-enforcement, the threats are faster, more personal, more likely to be one on one, or one on several attackers, and no holds barred as far as whether you might have one hand available, both hands available, an injury, etc. It’s sort of like picking different tools to suit the job needs better. It’s kind of hard to describe what I’m trying to say, but I think everybody gets the idea. Condition three works better for military applications, condition one works better for the types of threats average person faces. in the end, though, everybody has to pick the one they’re most comfortable with, and train around it, and choose for themselves based on their own assessments.
You describe conditions and comparative circumstances very well. Would humbly add that the Israelis had. and still do. a wide variety of sidearms and in their thinking desired a universal system that would be followed by all personnel with anything being used, no matter what had been trained on.
excellent analysis. thanks for posting it. I've carried a SIP229 (da/sa - hammer down) for several years. often though of going to a striker fired, but never felt any significant improvement. I totally agree that how you train is more important.
I don't like DA/SA hammer-fired more than SF for some mechanical reason; I prefer it because I've shot a guhzillion rounds (thanks US Navy) from the M9 platform with it and feel extremely confident with it. Well said.
Add this one
Condition 0.5 --
Chambered Glock w/ trigger DEPRESSED so it only takes a 1cm slide movement to ready (you do this via disassembly and reassemble sliding a round under the extractor as you reinsert the barrel... Don't overpull the slide past the disassembly tab click)
I have heard of that practice. I don't think I would ever recommend it or attempt it myself.
Outstanding video, well articulated. I'm a big fan of the Hi-Power, and especially the S&W 39. To me it comes down to quick target acquisition, to not perform unnecessary tasks before sight alignment{lol, I don't want to chase that front aperture around). Thanks again y'all
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
Good morning Howard and HR-community,
1. I found this to be a TRULY EXCELLENT video - thank you - because: (a) it caused me to think about things I have long (many decades) ERRONEOUSLY assumed to be correct and (b) it dispelled several myths. I’ll try to explain this in the following paragraphs.
2. My professional background (40+ years) largely is in the world of USN/USMC tactical (fighter and attack) aircraft program management. For many decades during and after World War II (really up to the mid-1980’s or early-1990’s) a common fighter-community mantra was, “SPEED IS LIFE.” And, unfortunately in my opinion, that same fallacious maxim is far too often applied to lawful citizen defensive handgun operations.
3. Yes, there are some occasions when the speed with which the first (and subsequent) round(s) is (are) fired may be crucial - although I suggest a few tenths of a second difference may well be mathematically valid, but practically meaningless. For example, the patrol officer who pulls a vehicle over for a “routine” traffic stop, only to be confronted by an armed felon when he approaches the car’s door. BUT, for legal civilian defense, how likely is such a situation? The plain fact is, it’s exceedingly unlikely. We all understand that the rare emergency trip to a pharmacy in a bad part of town at 0300 or to an ATM 0100 may very infrequently be required. However - and I am not discussing the law enforcement situations - I respectfully suggest such scenarios are EXTREMELY unusual.
4. What (imho) is FAR more probable (for the defensively armed, smart, and lawful citizen) is hearing the glass in your residence’s back door break at 0230 or having a few young hooligans raise hell on your property at 0030 on Saturday morning. Now, I believe this is a VERY important distinction. Why?
5. For several reasons:
5a. The police officer is a trained professional and he’s awake (even alert) when he makes that traffic stop or investigates an unsecured back entryway at a Main Street store . . . but when that glass on my home’s backdoor breaks at 0230, I’m likely to arise from a sound sleep and be less than entirely alert.
5b. We civilians may (this happened to me) have a child return from college a day or two before he was expected, he unlocks the door at 0400 (having driven all night to get home ahead of schedule), but all I hear is a “likely prowler” on my home’s lower floors.
5c. There’s loud, ceaseless banging on my front door at 0200, but it’s actually a drunken neighbor at the wrong (near-identically appearing) townhouse.
6. In all of the foregoing examples - and there are countless others - SPEED ISN’T LIFE, in fact SPEED CAN BE DEATH. Misjudgments occur when any individual isn’t fully alert / awake AND isn’t adequately trained (which absolutely is the norm for most citizens who own one or more defensive firearms). And these deficiencies can ONLY exacerbate the possibility of a tragedy.
7. Therefore - and this is my “bottom line” - I really WANT multiple safeties (and I refer to much more than the mechanical devices on a firearm). A top-tier double action revolver or a traditional DA//SA autoloader (in DA) doesn’t have the short trigger pull of a 1911A1, a BHP, or a Glock (etc.) . . . and, imho, that’s generally a VERY GOOD thing. Moreover, even polymer frame / striker fired modern autoloaders can have thumb safeties. Although I fully understand some thought and practice is required to disengage the safety (and that mechanical safety could also make the trigger pull slightly less light and crisp), I respectfully suggest the advantages of a slightly more deliberate first shot FAR, FAR outweigh the disadvantage of approximately a tenth of second additional time until the first round exits the muzzle. Those extra tenths of second just might prevent a life-ruining tragedy.
8. Finally, I want to extol H&K’s USP (traditional DA/SA) design. It has an external hammer (decidedly beneficial in several ways, including re-holstering). It also has a combined safety and de-cocker . . . so the hammer can be de-cocked (similar to a Sig P Series semiautomatic) AND it can additionally be carried in Condition One (similar to a 1911A1). The “best of both worlds” . . . a very smart and safe design concept, imho.
As always, a thoughtful and articulate post. Thanks Roy!
I recently started to train with pistols and one of the first things I realized was how similar it is to learning to play a musical instrument. Muscle memory is the key, and in training that muscle memory we have to fight all kinds of tendencies, fear instincts, laziness, etc, and just like with an instrument, when you practice fundamentals, you start slow and get faster as you build that muscle memory. So I suspect a highly trained and practiced Mossad or IDF pistol shooter will get that first shot off in a very similar time to someone who trained with condition 1 or 0.5 (striker). I've watched them do it and the racking happens in a very fluid movement as they bring the pistol to the ready position. It's impressive to watch and had to have taken thousands of practice movements to perfect.
Interesting test. One point I don't think you mentioned is that carrying on an empty chamber can prove problematic if an attacker lays hands on you while you are drawing. I have practiced racking the slide on my leg, but I've never had to do it while somebody was trying to overpower me.
I’m glad you have trained for that potentiality. Where there’s a will, there’s a way!
This is very interesting HR, it is very surprising to see how little time differences you had.
Watching how fast the Mossad could get shots off from condition 3 was impressive. But of course they all had extensive practice.
Yep, and practice is the key.
My concern with condition three is a close range attack when the support hand is needed to hold an attacker back.
That is one definite drawback. I wish I had included that in the presentation.
You can rack a firearm very easily with one hand (off your belt, holster, bad guy eye socket, etc).
@@papimaximus95 your welcome to it. I don't want to try it when I am rolling around in Del Mar Terraces parking lot while trying to control a suspects knife hand, retain possession of a my weapon and hopefully not have my head bashed against the curb.
There is a reason no North American police department authorizes chamber empty carry.
@@ftdefiance1 "There is a reason no North American police department authorizes chamber empty carry."
I don't think anyone on the planet is suggesting LEO not have a round chambered.
Ftdefiance 1...EXACTLY....! ! !
By far most self defense shootings take place within arms reach...so drawing with one hand while warding off the attacker with the other is a critical skill...empty chamber carry takes away that ability...
Thank you for pronouncing Walther correctly and not going through the pantomime of showing us how to make a gun safe just a simple " by the way it's safe". As to be expected from you, very thorough.
Thank you Dennis!
Excellent video! Clearly underlines the point to TRAIN with whatever firearm you (have, like, are comfortable, or suits your need). I kind of like a heavier feel, but do not expect everyone else to be of the same mind.
Yep, that’s a point I wanted to emphasize. Training makes all the difference. Thanks for watching!
Quick-drawn is a possible scenario but do we overemphasize it when most situations where you'll have time to wish you had a gun include that several seconds before you'd be firing it
Another factor to consider is more "real world;" what if you have something in your off-hand that you don't want to loose control off? Like a child or loved one, or something else of great value OR that hand is involved in grappling or fighting off your adversary. That changed me from a 1911 Condition 2 carry to a Condition 1 carry.
Good video, good analysis. Now do Patrol Ready shotguns.
Good point, like this scenario from Active Self Protection
👇🏼
th-cam.com/video/dGh4yeN8NxE/w-d-xo.html
Exactly. Conditions 0, 1 and 2 require only one hand to make the firearm ready to fire. Condition 3 requires both hands to make ready, ignoring something like a belt charge, which I expect would ruin the time on target. This is why I only carry DA/SA or DAO.
Yes sir! Anything fighting shotgun!!!!!
@@Fly_Away_2 Agreed, and most encounters are close contact, so you will likely need one arm. However, I especially don’t like condition 0mor 1 in appendix carry. I don’t want a tiny sear edge with a spring under tension be the only thing between me and losing my junk. I’ll carry a striker at 3 o’clock, but not appendix. Mostly, I’ll stick with my P01 and it’s DA/SA thank you very much.
You can rack a firearm very easily with one hand (off your belt, holster, bad guy eye socket, etc).
A full cylinder with a couple speed loaders handy? 😇
Oh, not to mention clean and properly lubed. ☺️
As always, an excellent presentation. It would be interesting to see this same test, only this time for an IWB draw, with a cover garment.
It boils down to safety in carry verses efficiency of fire. The one time I had to fire my duty weapon it was fast and ugly against two vicious dogs charging for me. The lead dog was a shepherd mix. Turn, draw and fire. No time to aim or negotiate a safety. I was carrying a Beretta 96 with safety off. So I'd have to say double action/single action probably provides the best balance.
Interestingly, the sound of that one shot stopped the attack and the lead dog only suffered a superficial wound. Thankfully I escaped from a bad mauling.
BTW - dog lovers tend to get incensed at this story. I'm no fainting flower. I've dealt with dogs a lot over my L.E. career. That was the only time I had two try to attack me directly and unprovoked.
I know what you mean. I had to shoot a vicious dog once. I think there were some people more angry about that than if I had shot another person.
I enjoy carrying my poly/striker guns but there is nothing wrong with a good DA/SA gun. Good video!
My introduction to the 1911 involved condition 3 and a military flap leather holster. At the advice of a range aster, a WWII combat veteran, I sewed a wedge of leather into the lower portion of the flap (just above the hammer). When drawing the pistol, I rotated it 90 degrees to the left (counter clockwise), caught the rear sight on the top of the leather wedge and, pushing firmly against the holster, chambered a round, immediately placing the pistol in condition 0. Because of my prior knowledge of the 1911, M1 and M14, I became my unit's armorers in the army. When I discussed my modification with the battalion armorers, a crusty E-7 (with CIB), he showed me a seperate basket of like modified holsters that he issued only to soldiers who knew how to use them. Officially a No-no, but, in combat, who's looking?
You might enjoy this short video: th-cam.com/video/Mq_iwN4q8cc/w-d-xo.html
FYI - The "Israeli Method" is not unique to the Mossad, it is/was the standard pistol training style from the founding of the state in 1948 until at least very recently. It came about due to the plethora of pistols in service and the impossibility of training police, soldiers, Mossad, Shabak, ElAl security, on specific, widely issued handguns. A standard "Condition 3" was practical for safety and the carrying of so many different guns. I ran an armory there for a number of years, and out of 40-50 handguns, I had very few duplicates.
Thank you. I didn’t know that.
Good morning HR. Enjoyed the video. Cocked and locked for me with a 1911. I am so conditioned that my thumb swipes on the draw even without a safety on a double action or striker fired gun. Would like to see a DA revolver added to the mix for comparison.
I have done something like that in the past. That was the only reason I didn’t throw one in this time around.
I think the biggest factors in carry condition is the drop safe ability of that firearm.
The high power and most 1911s do not have a firing pin block and can and will fire when dropped, even with the hammer still back.
A big reason for Israeli carry was a non drop safe Hi Power was dangerous and the troops were not particularly well trained.
If a gun has a firing pin block, but the only way to keep it safe is a manual thumb safety, use it. If something gets into that trigger guard and could potentially pull the fairly light and short trigger you could be in trouble.
The real test for different carry conditions is by not using your weak hand, because you could very well be in a situation where you are holding off and attacker, or holding back someone for protection, or possibly just in a grapple situation where getting both your hands to the gun is difficult.
For people uncomfortable with the ONE IN THE CHAMBER, I recommend to carry condition 3 with the gun cocked like it would regularly be and carry it for a while and everyday count the amount of times the hammer or striker has dropped on it... It's probably less than 1.
Let me explain something quickly about the reason the Mossad adopted the condition three carry method. The Firearms they were Carrie, P35 Browning's again, were aging to the point where their safety mechanisms were becoming inconsistent. They adopted a method by which they literally could draw, Rach, and fire quite consistently. They even at one point had a holster that some would use that you could grab the firearm and push it Forward rack the firearm before even left the holster.
The reason why the Marine Corps and the Army carry these guns in condition three is to make them officer proof period in 1902 with Browning presented the Barbie with their very first officer's pistol. The 1902 Browning in 32 I believe, a lieutenant asked him why it didn't have a safety on it like many of the other newfangled automatic pistols. John Browning looked at him a little bit puzzled and immediately responded with the concept that an officer is supposed to know which end the bullet comes out of. Obviously with the intent to convey that stupid people shouldn't be handling firearms.
I would love to applaud you for accurately defining the decocking lever on the Smith & Wesson which is actually the same thing as Carl Walther designed in 1929, and it is a decocker, it is not a safety. It is only used as a safety as a secondary mechanism. The problem with that particular mechanism. When you put your hand on top of the slide to Rack it especially to do a clearance drill. You could easily hit that decocker and disable the firearm. That is why I do not and have never suggested using those mechanisms on firearms that police or military should carry or anybody else who's going to carry the gun to defend themselves. It is one of the things I instructed Michigan State Police to take the firearm back to where they purchased it from, because many of them had bought the Beretta 92, and see if they could trade for a firearm but did not have that device. I would suggest one of several firearms of the 1980s and early 1990s era. That way you did not have the chance of disabling your firearm should you have to do a clearance drill or reload it instead of using the slide release you were actually racking the slide and inadvertently disabling the firearm and getting yourself killed in the process.
I do to ensure cure the concept that safety with a firearm exist between the ears of the operator and his competence. Not with the accoutrements of the firearm itself.
Condition zero is to carry the firearm with the hammer cocked without the safety on. That is stupidity on the level that even a Marine Corps officer has never thought of. If you want to know how to carry a Browning design firearm, you listen to John Moses Browning.
Condition zero is the condition that every police officer carries their Glock in. Because if the sear on a Glock releases the striker for any reason whatsoever, the firearm discharges its payload. There are virtually no safety mechanisms on a Glock. Not a single one. The little lever on the trigger is there just to bulshit people. It is not a safety of any kind for any reason. How police agencies Across the Nation have not been sued over this is beyond me the firearm is devoid of any safety mechanism whatsoever. There are a few that literally completely cock and release the striker through the trigger. The Glock is that one of them.
You are really slow at condition too. At the time that you actually finish racking the slide the firearm should be going off. You are waiting till after you get the firearm racked. The firearm should be going off almost instantaneously after you have a round in battery. At least the way you are racking the slide.
My first large semi auto service pistol was acz variant that had double action capability but I still carried it cocked and locked. Do not compromise on my safety or anybody else's, if you're going to carry a firearm with a safety on it carry the with the safety engaged. I also need to add that the decocker is not a safety. But I also do not carry firearms without an external safety. I did for a short time and I was never comfortable with it except that that was a gun that was always concealed. It was a Walther PPKs. I use that for a backup for a while.
I would like to add that in actual gunfights, the first anatomically substantial hit wins the gunfight, pretty much always. That has been found to be required that from the point of time that you get to your pistol and put around on target has to be done in 1.5 seconds that you are almost four-tenths of a second away from that criteria. However you are started with your hands in front of you. Not from the time that you put your hand on the gun. So you may be doing pretty good here. But I'm still not going to muck up the carry of a firearm by not carrying it the way it was intended to be carried. I carried a revolver for decades, at least twenty years after I was training officers to transition into semi-autos. It's not that I could shoot them or that I didn't know how to carry them, I just never felt under gun with a revolver. The second-highest Firepower firearm on the street today is a 357 revolver it follows the 38 revolver very closely. Firepower is defined by how many rounds you fired that took effect against the target compared to how many were fired it has nothing to do with how many bullets are in the gun.
Excellent as always! Thank you.
Not surprised at all to hear your analysis.
With a good trainer, and quite a bit of practice, mainly dry-fire, one can time about 1.8 sec from condition 3 with more or less same accuracy as displayed in this video. 2.3 - 2.5 sec would be a good time if the draw is from under a T shirt , loose shirt or a light jacket.
Now, regarding the Mossad… well I don’t know about them.. but who really knows? Almost everybody else, police, the equivalent of the Secret Service agents, Air Marshals, SWAT teams of the sort, IDF SF units, and citizens are trained and use cond. 3. Under some special circumstance like an , imminent contact they would have the handgun in their hands ready with a round in the chamber and in the rare case someone still carries the FN Hi power or the SA Jericho, with the safety on. Some would carry the gun in in the holster with a chamber loaded and safety on, if there is a safety. They all transitioned years ago to….. Glock 19C or 19.
Well done! I agree, those were some intriguing results. Unlike the internet, the shot timer tells no lies.
This is by far the best video I have ever seen for understanding these conditions. I had not put that throught process through start to end. Honestly Funk perfect demonstration and presenting the facts. It is well worth the watch when looking to begin conceal and carry.
Interesting results. I would be a little nervous about condition 3, as it's a large movement. Due to the close proximity of a large number of attacks and the stress of the situation, racking of the slide might be an issue. However, once again, training is key.
HR. I really appreciate your firearms perspectives. Your videos are well organized and reflect your extensive knowledge and law enforcement experience. I especially appreciate your perspective on the 10 most unnecessary tactical features now featured on many handguns today. I agree completely. Most are gimmicks to sell handguns.
Thanks William!
I always like the 3rd method...I think you are right ✅ it comes down to training...
As a retired LEO, because of your video, I have decided to carry without a round in the chamber. The need is not needed to be hot all of the time as when I was on duty.
That decision is certainly up to you. I would encourage you to train using both methods and see which one works best for you.
Condition 3 is like trying to put on your seat belt right before a crash DO NOT CARRY ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER. Always always always carry safety off with a round in the chamber. You will always be faster and have less steps that you'll probably fumble with in an adrenaline dump situation like when your life is in imminent danger.
Semper Fi, brother. Do you think the slower result for condition one had anything to do with added caution due to drawing a hot weapon? TBH, I'd be a touch more concerned about shooting myself when drawing a fully cocked and locked pistol. BTW... Nice Steyr! Love that piece! Adventure ever on my friend, Phat🏹
I don't think so. When I was drawing I was not consciously concerned about shooting myself. That said, I did notice the act of sweeping off the safety took an instant.
Interesting. As one who scratched his head for years of being required to carry a 1911 with an empty chamber, in a cavalry-style holster and with a lanyard attached, this is surprising. Practice certainly helps, but it's tough to replicate stressors.
This definitely disproves the age old gripe of "having to call time out" to chamber a round.
Believe me, I had the same concerns in the Marine Corps when I was required to carry in condition 3. As I said early in the video, I have been wanting to conduct this experiment for a long time largely to satisfy my own curiosity. Thanks for watching James!
I believe that the real issue is not how fast the particular type of carry is but the potential of screwing it up under pressure and the difficulty to do it while injured, in a confined space, or while engaged in hand to hand combat. Anything you have to do, other then pull the trigger, adds a layer of complexity to getting your gun into the fight. In reality, the double action trigger, and the striker fired gun function in the same manner with slight differences in the weight and travel of the trigger. However, carrying a gun without a round in the chamber, is purposely, and needlessly putting yourself at a disadvantage, in my opinion.
Interested you carry a Hipower. In 1970 I was put off the Hipower in the Royal Marines as it bit back. There recent intro of the Girsan P35 with its small mods got me interested again for sentimental reasons. Now it is my favorite carry gun due to its simplicity. I removed the mag safety and added a BHSprings trigger. I need to practice carry 3 more as I believe it is the safest method. It is full size yet fairly slim to carry IWB and it has no added unnecessary parts to snag. I have an early S&W M&P40 trigger job and better sights. Very accurate but bulky, and an M&P9 2.0 with a safety. Great shooter and very accurate, but bulky. That’s where the Hipower fits the bill. Thank you for your videos they are great teaching tips. When I was in the military only officers carried side arms.
Thank you Patrick. I really like the old P35. It has great handling and pointing characteristics. As you noted, it’s also a great carry piece because of its slim features. The Girsan is a great modern iteration of the classic design. I hope it serves you well for a long time.
Point taken about training and preparation being more important. Condition two appears inapplicable for Striker-fired polymer wonders. Didn't carry in condition one until buying a micro 9 with an external safety.
One thing to consider with condition 3 or 1 is the chance you may fumble something under stress. Yes training can mitigate this to a certain degree but adding one more step increases the chance for Murphy's law to enter. Condition 2 and 0 is just point and shoot, less chance for a fumble, a little faster and accurate.
Great tutorial on carry conditions, HR. I think your group results with the Steyr pistol proves something about striker fired, no external safety pistols. The draw from a kydex holster is noticeably smoother, faster to me. This realization coming from an old 1970-90’s 1911, Col. Cooper fan. Steel framed, hammer fired pistoleros don’t need to preach to me. Believe me gents, I get it, still love 1911, Browning Hi Powers. Odd anecdote I heard about condition “0” carry. Dangerous sounding story about British commandos creeping and peeping thru the Burmese jungles with their FN P-35’s chamber loaded, safety off. WWII era. I guess the Enfield 303 or the Sten 9MM were too hard to swing on line in the thick bush? Figured the P-35 was in a full flap holster, not the quickest to draw from.
There's a reason those military firearms don't have match grade triggers. M-16's measure around 7 lbs, and the P-35 insn't a whole lot lighter. You could probably even get away with conditoin 0 when carrying a 1911 due to the grip safety. Even so, I wouldn't reccoment it.
Provably that rumor about the british in Malaysia is not true but came from the verified fact that the SAS in their HP years used to carry thier pistols in condition 0 in hostage rescue operation and CQB
@Echosdad2
That might be connected to the high death toll of friendly fire in Vietnam in some of the cases.
Nice video. What condition you carry in is up to how you train. You obviously train for all conditions which is great. Train how you carry.
What might have been fun? is if you threw in a Colt SAA 1873 clone from the draw to the fire. It might have beat them all do to grip angle/pointability
Just as a comparison and FYI.....
In 8 yr of running speed steel matches, the best shooters could manage to break 1 sec to first hit, a very few could occasionally reach near to .75 sec. Understand, this was generally using highly prepared and slicked-up weapons and specifically designed holsters; but from "surrender" position.
I would venture that the average competitor, barring neophytes and Master class, would avg 1-1.5 seconds.
Little difference, in reality, from your numbers, once style of presentation and conditions are factored in.
I generally carry cond 3. Your .32 sec difference between C3 and C2/1 is 1/3 that of a quick reaction time of a potential opponent; rendering the difference moot.
Conclusion? Other than a surprise attack or being sniped, a trained individual can usually beat an opponent's OODA loop regardless on carry condition
Thanks for the excellent presentation
You’re welcome Paul. Thanks for watching!
HR keeping them in the proper place is always preferred method. Those flyers can be a pain. ! Great video and content. Semper Fi !
Thank you!
Very WELL done
Also moving is crucial for giving yourself time
Mr. Funk, the range part was great. This is what I do most of the time I'm practicing - draw and fire with shot timer. Flicking the safety off is slowest by 2/10 second in general with all pistols. Double action is the best. My Kahr and revolver shooting verify this with Kahr better (smoother and lighter trigger pull). My times match your times, too. Kahr I can get down to 1.6 best times. Cycling the slide must change the draw stroke. I do use a 15 yard target for this drill. Would have liked to see the Model 19 in this test just to compare the revolver.
Cool video thanks. I keep my m&p shield with one in the chamber, safety on.
Outstanding video. The detailed analysis and explanations of the carry conditions as applied to various types of handguns are excellent. I appreciate the clarity and coverage you provide in your videos. Thank you for the valuable information in your presentations. Please keep up the good work.
Thanks! Will do.
As you noted, it's a training issue
I recently took a class with my g2c, which has a thumb safety, and because I've been mostly practicing with my revolvers, a couple of times I forgot to wipe the safety off during the presentation
I am now working more with the g2c, because I intend to take more classes, and I'm not going to slow the class down by using a revolver
I wanted to share an observation I made about your experiment. During the third draw in Condition 1, you momentarily caught your thumb as you put your hand on the pistol. I believe this is why your time of 2.07 seconds was higher than for the other three draws. If you exclude that data point, the average for the Steyr falls to 1.81 seconds, which is the lowest of all conditions and probably what you were expecting before the experiment. The glitch on your third draw is something that could have happened with any of the other carry conditions and is therefore not a fair reflection on the carry method. By the way, I am a newer shooter with about a year's experience and have enjoyed watching and learning from your videos.
Thank you! That is precisely why I took the average of three presentations. I think I had better and worse draws in each carry condition.
Provided you practice, I would think in most threat situations (for EDC) condition 3 would be acceptable unless the treat already has a gun on you in which case conditions 2 and 1 aren't going to help much if he'd already drawn and you have not. Also a lot of CCW setups may not provide a quick or snag-free draw. I prefer to err on safety unless you're a LEO and / or practice regularly. If I'm in a higher threat area and I try not to be, I try to assess possible cover like cars, doorways and solid barriers since I don't assume my actions will be faster than my threat.
Sir, Thank You Very Much for the informative video. Details and comparison you demonstrated are very important to me. I read about why the Israelis favored the Condition 3, is because when they started as a government agency, they used various types of pistols for their operatives such as the Walther .32ACP and different types of World War 2 and Post War varieties, thus make their weapon presentation / deployment consistent.
You’re welcome Chris.
Great presentation as always, and the only thing I'll add for consideration: there are many videos on TH-cam of CCers (some off-duty LE) suddenly caught in a situation where they needed to shoot or return fire, and the sudden stress and adrenaline overload takes hold, and they try to fire with no round in the chamber. In the second or less it takes to cycle a round, sometimes it proved too late.
Thank you. As I said in the video, I think training and preparation are the key. Situational awareness is also a critical component.
Your experiments are always very fair, professional, thorough and honest! I’d say the only real disadvantage to condition 3 carry is the necessity of 2 hands to get the pistol into action.
Thank you. I might have to test that theory in a future video.
I carry the s&w shield 2.0 with a full magazine, 1 in the chamber and safety disengaged. Please don't worry, the trigger is fully covered even when I draw. I'm totally comfortable with this and i just want 1 less step to have to contend with should I have no other choice but to draw my firearm.
As always, great information! That time was surprisingly close!
I always carry Condition 3 with my M&P 2.0 10mm with a 4.625 inch barrel and no safety lever. No problem for me.
Very interesting. Would you consider possibly in the future doing a similar test, but perhaps comparing the draw times for firearms carried in a retention holster (such as a Safariland) vs a regular non-retention holster?
I still have my duty Safariland 070. Loved it! After an awful lot of practice under different conditions, I was reliably as fast as I needed to be and never felt slowed having to defeat the safeguards.
Maybe. I’ll give that some thought.
As long as your support arm is functioning and not preoccupied, you have the physical strength needed to rapidly work the slide without jamming a round, and you have no need for immediate accurate followup shots, there should be nothing to worry about when using condition 3 or a DA/SA trigger.
I don't know about today but way back when I was in Army was also 3. I always thought 2 required safety on. No matter what condition your shooting was again impressive.
I am not sure you could engage the safety with the hammer down.
1911's were carried in condition three when I served as well.
Thank you Tom!
Thanks Tom. In condition 2, it’s not possible to apply the safety on a 1911. With something like my S&W M39, it is completely doable. Thanks for watching!
Well done, real information debunks myths every time. Practiced muscle memory wins every time.
There you go again, teasing me with that m39!!!!
With the Third Gen Smiths (5906 and 3913s) we were trained to thumb up the decocker/safety during the initial grab of the gun while still in the holster. That worked well for me and my wife as the 92f was her duty weapon.
The startle and need for an fast as possible draw in the civilian world (1.2 sec) is probably rare? So most of the conditions mentioned would do? My only concern with an empty chamber is your non-firing hand might be otherwise occupied? When approaching danger, either go the other way (most desirable) or your gun should already be in your hand.
As always, a well thought out and well presented content that is useful.
Thank you!
That model 39 is a beautiful gun.
Thank you!
This was very interesting. Of course I’m a revolver guy but still I thought it was rather interesting. It appears to me from the numbers that Jeff Cooper would give us that on a practical level there is no distinction as far as time. There’s a time actually going for your gun has confused the bad guy and in the midst of that confusion he just got shot with whichever method you’re using. The times that I have carried 1911 I always felt uncomfortable with cocked and locked. So I always carried one in the chamber and hammer down. But I feel comfortable now knowing that the speed is not that significantly different as far as first shot. Thank you for the video. Again interesting.😊
My pleasure. As always, thanks for watching!
I have been carrying condition 1 for years now, still makes me nervous somtimes when I'm in crowds.
The shorter slide length allows for a faster draw too and the Steyr with 2 hundreds slower is so little that it might be just from canting the wrist more. I'd love to try those sights. It's definitely down to training, but there'll always be time added.
That can be a huge safety plus dealing with someone h2h. I recently met someone that is transporting those that got nothing to lose and he prefers condition 3. But something can go wrong with racking the slide pushing out, the round may not chamber as intended compared to having all the time in the world before the stress is applied including a press check. 0.3 of a second is quite some time...enough for a follow up shot. I think that's preferable for CC and one doesn't always have the luxury of both hands. I was told that some see racking the slide as an intimidation tool just like the old 'hear me pumping that shotgun' BS. Some just aren't impressed and I would never rely on that. For those that rarely use their sidearm condition 3 is a good idea.
Idk if you already have the footage for it but it'd be interesting to see classic DAO (that you know quite well) vs. DA revolvers and the other options for first shots and 5 shot strings but without the variable of holsters with timing shot to shot.
Does anyone still make a new DAO semi-auto pistol in the classic sense?
EDIT: typo
If you mean a hammer-fired DAO, I can’t think of one currently being produced.
Thank You for that, I feel there is more to be said on the subject.
Excellent video. With your skills it seems there is very little difference in speed or accuracy. I on the other hand excel with cocked and locked with the 1911 pistols and hammer down on double action revolvers. I can't master striker fired polymer pistols no matter how I try. Thank you for sharing. 👍
You're most welcome. Thanks for watching!
i trained eating eggs with a pitchfork and now i cant seem to use a knife and fork to save my life. let go of your bias. it is holding you back buddy.
@@hrfunk My pleasure Sir.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
I was surprised how close the times were and the shot groups. It would be neat to see a comparison between you and a new shooter doing these exact drills. I’m sure with your training and background it helped. Very best video to watch with my coffee on a Saturday morning post hurricane Ian.
Thank you. I'm glad you liked it!
Great observation. An expert pistol shooter vs an average Joe. Not a comparison that relates to real world novice taking advice. This should be how an expert can crunch time between carry conditions, not what is best for the average guy.
Why does the average Joe not strive to excel with his (or her) firearm if he/she chooses to go about armed?
@@hrfunk as an average Joe I strive to do the best I can with what I've got to do it with. So I'm not entirely sure the other guy's notion there should be a distinction between and 'expert' and 'the rest of us' is on point.
Nor do I. Thank you for your comment.
Although I knew about the carry conditions, This was a very interesting video..I carry my Cz p-01 in condition 2; ….But at times when I want to be extra safe I carry condition 7,… Leave the gun at home and just have the receipt for it in my holster…..
I like the decocker pistols the best for a few reasons. I am a lefty. The gun rides on my left hip. Pulling the gun and disengaging a safety with the left hand is pretty hard to do as opposed to a righty doing the same action. With one in the pipe and the double action trigger pull for number one shot, life is better for me. The second reason for the decocker pistols for ME, is they are safe if one uses the decocker prior to reholstering. I do not have to worry about holding a hammer and slowly lowering it to make it not fire or engaging a safety. Again, I am operating from the backwards side of the gun being a lefty. Lastly, as I age, physical limitations come with the years. Arthritis is affecting my hands. The decocker pistols seem to be a lot easier for me. I have a handful of striker fired pistols but have transitioned to the decockers. That is just me. Everyone has to find what works best for THEM.
I could not agree more. Thanks for the comment and thanks for watching!
IMHO, if you don't plan on practicing much and just need something for self defense, then choose a revolver. If you do plan on practicing or are already experienced, then carry what and how you want.
ghee who'd a thought this would be controversial...😜 ... Your last statement is the most important of all. Train how you carry. Nothing is certain. Thanks for another insightful video Chief. 👍
You're welcome Keith. Thanks for watching!
Also do all options w/ gun already in-hand after 5-10 burpees
Seen vids of cops running gun in-hand then shooting so handling safely w/ high stress and activity is a foreseeable situation
As I mentioned below, I was not trying to prove categorically which carry condition was the best. I was simply trying to compare them fairly in terms of time and accuracy.
I'd say it depends on carry method (open/concealed) and if you have other things in hand. My friend use to carry condition 3 open carry. But she started carrying condition 1 when she realized that at a rest stop she has her daughter with her. She wouldn't have the free hand when the bad guy says go.
Thumbing off a safety or racking a slide is an extra complicating motion. Double action draw and pull the trigger is simpler and more instinctive.
I agree. As I said, however, there are some people who are required to carry in condition 3. The purpose of the video was to explore the extent to which they are handicapped by doing so.
As always a good topic and video. Maybe you could do a another on the different retention levels of holsters and how they affect your draw time and speed. Just a thought. Thanks for the great videos and their content.
Now imagine combining both. 😮
Maybe I will. I’ve certainly got enough holsters for it!
As you can probably tell, I'm new to your channel and just watching through a lot of your videos. Hope the comments on old videos aren't a bother. Anyway, I have no idea what the statistics are, but I have often wondered, mathematically speaking, if an individual is more likely to experience a negligent discharge than an armed self-defense encounter. Assuming NDs are more common I wonder if carrying in condition 3 would reduce the ND percentage to level that would be more desirable than the difference carrying in condition 1 or 2 and encountering a self defense shooting situation would pose. Additionally, i think everyone would agree, well most reasonable folks, that carrying cond 3 is better than not carrying for anyone not confident in carrying cond 1 or 2 but still competent with their firearm. Impossible question to answer but interesting food for thought especially considering your excellent presentation.
Thanks Brad. No problem at all with comments on older videos. I don’t think there are any definitive statistics on negligent discharges as compared to defensive firearm use. To your point, I think (as does the military) that condition 3 reduces the potential for an unintentional discharge. It also slows the employment of a handgun for defensive purposes. Based upon my testing, the delay is minimal, but measurable UNDER IDEAL CIRCUMSTANCES. Under other circumstances, the delay might be more significant. I would recommend that if you’re intending to carry in condition 3, you train extensively with your handgun under any/all conceivable circumstances.
Excellent explanation of carry conditions. However, when it comes to condition 2, I diverge from conventional thought. I do not carry a 1911 on my person but do take one in my car often enough and I always have it in condition 2. I do not pinch the hammer between thumb & finger, nor do I put my thumb on the hammer spur to lower it. I place my thumb against the face of the hammer and there is almost zero chance that the hammer will slip. Most criticism of condition 2 is directed toward the 1911 but no one ever criticizes SA/DA handguns without a decocker as unsafe when placed in condition 2. Why is that? Lowering the hammer is essentially the same as on a 1911. No matter the handgun, placing the thumb against the face of the hammer is the best way of lowering the hammer with minimal chance of it slipping. In the literally many thousands of times I've done it, I've had no incidents of the hammer slipping... ever.
I’ve seen that technique, and used it myself. It also works well when decocking a revolver.
Excellent video as always, just my opinion and I may be wrong, but I think that you slow down condition 1 with the HP compared to the others pistols because the small sight notch in the HP slow you down a little bit. Not because the action taked to disengage the manual safety
I noticed that myself, but I do believe it was a factor associated with disengaging the safety.
One problem I see with Cond 3 is that it is more complicated to reholster it in the condition it was drawn or that after reholstering the gun one is carrying in a different condtion.
A problem Cond 0/1/2 do not have.
At the range , when all conditions are under your control, there isn't much difference in the times. Please give it another go, with a clipboard in your off hand and a pen in your dominant hand. I was issued a Sig P226 in 1984/5 and carrying a DA/SA with the chamber loaded is the best use of a defensive handgun. Like tony york (below) said; the more steps to go through to get a shot off, makes for more opportunities for errors and slip-ups. (Try it with a wet Coke in your hand and your fingers wet.)
Thank You.
As I mentioned in the video, I was just trying to explore the degree to which individuals who choose condition 3 or those required to use that method are handicapped. I was not advocating its use. That said, if someone uses that condition, it would be prudent to avoid doing things that impair the use of both hands when/if a threat might be encountered.
@@hrfunk Yes, like going outside...
Just my two cents: The fact that you were looking for differences due to the condition[s] of the firearms, the differences in time to fire was attributed to those conditions. In watching the shooting portion of the video, however, my observation was that you struggled more with unholstering the Browning Hi Power than you did with the other firearms. The time differences were probably due more to that than the condition[s] of the firearms. It would have been interesting to see the same pistol (if that was possible) used to fire all 4 of the conditions tested, removing the ease of access issue, to see if any of the conditions had a significant impact on performance.
Thank you. It would have been possible to demonstrate conditions 1, 2, and 3 with the Hi Power, but I would have been a bit Leary with #2.
Each carry should be used depending on the circumstance and environment IMO. I usually carry condition 3 Israeli carry but if the circumstance and environment call for the other carry options then utilize those when needed etc.. Excellent video thanks for the vdeo and time 👍
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!
nice - HR, under no condition would I like to face off with you regardless of your carry condition! I also try to keep aware of Colonel Coopers awareness conditions. If you go through life in condition "white", it probably doesn't matter what your carry condition is.
Agreed. Thanks for watching!
Another observation and take away: DA/SA hammer and striker fired pistols have no appreciable difference in first shot time and accuracy with a trained individual.
I appreciate your effort for this video.
It looked like you had a couple snags when drawing the steyr, which likely would have moved it to the fastest time as well as most accurate, if you had made clean draws on all shots.
I also think there's a very low percentage of daily carriers who carry single actions in uncovered owb holsters.
I have no problem with s/a guns, I just don't believe they're carried much any more.
I had better and worse draws with each handgun. That’s why I used the average time of five shots.
Regarding the declining use of S/A pistols, I think your right. Oddly, shooters managed to use them effectively for the better part of a century before somebody figured out they were too difficult to employ.
You are excellent instructor. Always enjoy your videos ...
Thank you!
That actually kind of blew my mind. I was expecting Condition One to be fastest and most accurate. It not only wasn't but there was hardly and difference in any of the Conditions. I would like to see if using a 1911 for Condition One would have made any difference, but I bet it wouldn't have made much, if any, difference. Very interesting video.
Zeke
Thank you. I’m glad you liked it!
Great video. Thanks for this comparison.
You're welcome. Thanks for watching!
Awesome unbiased review of carry condition. Great example of practice what you have and intend to carry to become proficient 👏
Thanks Dave!
This is why I carry a .357 Mag revolver for ccw…when mine or others lives are on the line, I ain’t got time for this bullshit.
Cheater!
Solid and thorough as always. Thanks for the video.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching!