well, I finally found a workaround myself, sorry for the delay. I hope the video on Friday won't be a problem, because I will have to schedule that and the issue that prevented setting this video to public still is unsolved.
every time is hear people say what if the 262 had been out earler i reply with what if the meteor(the jet project in general) wasn't stalled/delayed in the UK (battle of Britain with jets anyone)
I think some of the reason for hunting the 262's must have been morale related. Whether these were effective or not they were feared above their impact like the just like the tiger tanks. Killing the 262's on the airfields and delaying production with bombing probably made allied pilots feel a bit better about the enemy having to fight a plane that seemed to outperform their aircraft in every way.
The allies also devoted a lot of resources against the ME262 because, by 1945, there just wasn't a lot else to bomb. By March 1945, the Allies were bombing targets that would never had been considered worthwhile a year earlier, simply because everything else was badly damaged or flattened.
+Dylan Milne, I don't think the Allies animus for the Me-262 was as much "morale-related" as practical - the new jets could mostly only be engaged on takeoff and landing, and their four 30mm cannons were a fearsome weapon, just a few hits with those large explosive bullets could be devastating. The first kill for the Me-262 was a Mosquito, one of the fastest Allied planes, untouchable before the jets arrived. Fear of Death is an effective motivation.
The allies simply had nothing to do, if you want to say it in extreme. They were bored as the whole western front didnt really have any character of a full blown "all in" war, as most of the germans were exhausted, of low resources and usually many in other theaters...mostly on the eastern front. I dont want to make it look like easy war, but compared to the eastern front, it was. At the time the US came in, it was already over arguably...thanks to only one faction...the russians! Sure they got significant supplies, but they were the ones, who fought and who made the biggest difference by a HUGE margin. They paid it with a terrifying amount of people in this and they are nearly the only decider whatsoever....not only because of me being one sided on this topic, but also by nature, that they had to land first. No matter what...germany couldnt ever have won the war. Even if the russians were left aside and just a western front would have been opened....sooner or later, all this would have turned around nevertheless. But in that scenario I would think the world would still look way more different than we now have it. :) They could hunt ME262 and also claim the Mustang being on par or better than a FW190, because they simply were outnumbering the enemies. No real dogfight was ever flown...also thanks to the role of a fw190 not being in any contact with fighters. That was the job of the outnumbered BF109s. So, there is no real comparison, as FWs and MEs were shot down in fights like 15 vs 2 or even worse. Not to forget the lack of good and not exhausted pilots. Pilot training was another fail of the luftwaffe. While the US and GB ramped up pilot trainings by huge quanitities, that wasnt really a thing in the luftwaffe. Instead, the time of training simply was shortened to close a bit of that gap. But again: The real deal just happened on the other side.
@@DavidSmith-ss1cg The Me-262 COULD be engaged in the air. The issue is that, as an interceptor, the German pilots had the tendency to just shoot you bombers then leave.
My Grandfather (Austrian) talked a lot about it. Most of it is basically the same that you said, but a few details a Different: I think that the too little to late has to be looked at differently. The Germans had the possibility to have the jet fighter earlier as Heinkel was already building prototype jetfigthers. The earlier start would have made it easier to produce more. The other problemwas, that at the time of the war where the Me 262 was introduced most of the good pilots had already died and therefore were not available to pilot this rather complicated aircraft. For example the tail wheel made it necessary to shortly brake at a high speed to get the tail on top of the deflected jet exhaust, which was a sure way to crash for an untrained pilot.
This. By the time the 262 was rolled out into service, even had it been the wunderwaffe that it would have been without the running trail of problems, there would not have been enough 262s, fuel, and competent pilots to have made a significant impact on the war. That it _had_ all of the teething problems proves that it was rushed out too early, with insufficient testing and revision, and with inadequate materials. So _both_ the "too early" and "too little and too late" claims are correct, but for different reasons.
@@seanmalloy7249 they also lacked some rare metals they needed to keep the engines alive for more then 50 hours. I believe the British held the only source of it, somewhere in Africa.
I ran across this in the book "Speer," by Joachim Fest: "Outraged by Hitler's unreasonableness, the short-tempered field marshal (Milch) had screamed back: 'My Fuhrer, the smallest infant can see this is a fighter, not a bomber aircraft.' Speechless, Hitler had left him standing there." That's what's known as speaking truth to power.
Your smooth, almost imperceptible, pun on Führer + Furious, taken with what we know about the man's temper, is 1st rate. Very nice. As a working comedian, I salute you, sir. Also . . . German Turbojets were Centrifugal Flow types, while UK types were Axial flow. Both were plagued with problems in production, and in operation. The Jumo 004 was notorious for spilling fuel into the engine casing, creating pools of unspent fuel at the bottom of the casings, resulting in numerous engine fires . . . even more than those infamous DB 606/610s used for the He177. This problem nagged all Centrifugal flow turbojets, whether used for the Me262 (Jumo 004) or the He280 (HeS 8) and was, I believe, the main reason that German turbojets were so long in development. With that said . . . In my humble opinion, the aerial weapons the Allies feared most were the: 1) Buzz Bomb (V1), which could be shot down (but the number of sFlaK needed to ensure a 90% kill rate was phenomenal-even an island can't cover all the approaches with such weapons as they are very expensive and time consuming to produce-so, in a way, the V1 was a great success), 2) the FlaK Tower (most of our combat bomber losses were due to the 12.8cm and 10.5cm guns mounted in them), and, 3) the A4 missile, which could not be either intercepted (then or now-consider the "Scud", which is nothing else than an updated A4) nor its mobile launch sites dependably interdicted. Even those which broke apart during final dive (and most did, both then and today-which is why the Patriot Missile is a joke in that context) caused large damage to property and buildings through kinetic energy alone. If the warhead went off, well, all the better. While Allied experten sing the praises of the Butcher Bird (Fw190), the "109", the He219, and the other interceptors, during the war we were far more concerned about the Ar234, which could provide Reconnaissance Photos of Allied Territory at a time when no other method was at hand. Reconnaissance Photography was crucial-perhaps irreplaceable is a better term-to the German War effort (and our own, of course). Even so, the really scary weapons of the upper air were those I listed numerically . . . and none was a proper piloted aircraft. Don't get me wrong; I love the prototypes, the proof of concept vehicles, and the "what if" scenarios so popular among armchair historians . . . nothing cooler than the Ta154 . . . Ta152 . . . Wasserfall, Reintochter, the upengined Hs129 "Brick" (which is exactly what the more modern Fairchild A10 Thunderbolt 2 was in its heyday, but 30 years earlier) . . . Fritz X . . . and others, as much as any teenager reading his first "Axis Superweapons" Book . . . but . . . and it's a very big butt . . . the three systems I noted above were the real terrors in the air. If you took time to read this I salute you. I realize how busy you must be.
^ Just to point out. The German jet engine designs were mostly axial engines. Where as the operational British jets were Centrifugal, with a few axial jet engine designs in testing.
the fact that you quote your sources and give the references gives great credence to you're analysis. some further reading suggestions on topics would be appreciated. Fuhrious made me chortle
Your videos really help clarify (for me at least) a few of the most difficult subjects of WW2. Each side wants to control perceptions and 70 years later it continues. But very recent history is also fought over and the perceptions of the past play a role in our perception of today. It's very nice to get even handed and carefully crafted discussion (in English, my only language) from a guy with a German accent! I fully expect you to be dead wrong at some point, but I haven't found it yet! I'll be sure and let you know. Thanks for doing what you do.
When I was an RAF Officer Cadet at the RAF College Cranwell (1998) Sir Frank Whittle's son gave a speech in which he mentioned the Me 262. He said the 262 was his father's favourite Nazi fighter because "it killed more Nazi pilots than allied". He also said German claims that they fielded the first jet fighter were false because all modern jets are based on Whittle's design, not the German version which was an evolutionary dead end.
The Me 262 was nerver intended as a bomber. One of the best proofs for that is the cockpit, it was very hard or even impossible to aim a bombstrike with that. But still a good video, continue makeing these videos.
I think the "Too late" means that the plane would have had a bigger inpact in 1940 then in 1945, since the allied Planes werent as far as advanced as the me262. Its pretty logic if you think about it, I mean it would be the same with all other military tech. If a Mil.-Tech would come out way earlier it would have had a much bigger inpact in the war.
The lesson from this and other inaccuracies spread by various generals who lost of war is never ever trust the words of generals who've lost a war. They're accountable to nobody anymore as their boss just got killed/deposed and they're going to be awfully eager to push blame onto others.
Great video, as others may have commented, there is no wunderwaffe that help Germany "win the war"(besides an atom bomb, but they didn't have the resources to develop it, and didn't even develop a plane to carry it), since as soon as the allies met it in combat, they would react by how to counter it or bring in their "wunderwaffe". The Me 262 to the Gloster Meteor, the V-1 buzz bomb to the JB-2 Loon, the Fritz X to the Bat, etc, etc...
Excellent video. I had read Adolf Galland's book and had come away with the idea that Hitler had delayed the ME-262 trying to make it into a bomber. there are other sources that had supported this. Your information on the total number of operational ME-262s is an excellent point, when you consider that by 1944 the Allies were sending over thousand plane raids. Even with a kill ratio of 5 to one or more the ME-262 would have been overwhelmed.
In August 43 the B-17 attack on the Messerschmitt Factory in Regensburg destroyed the initial jigs for the 262 and forced production to be moved to other locations (some in salt mines) thus slowing production of the air frame. It wasn't until spring of 1944 that mass produced engines started to become available for the 262 as they developed work-arounds for the shortage of strategic metals. Another consideration. Messerschmitt wanted to build the Me-209, an updated 109 where the major flaws of the 109 were "fixed", rather than build the jet. That might have been the better route. The 209 would have used less resources to produce, less maintenance, less conversion training, and far less fuel (probably about 20% as much as the 262 for the same number of missions - although it has been claimed that jet fuel was more readily available than high octane fuel).
The 209 was to be powered by the DB603 engine IIRC, which was very expensive. The Junkers Jumo 004 used less material and was massively cheaper and easier to produce. This was one of the driving factors for the development of jet aircraft. Both the Me209 and 309 were technical failures whose performance matched, at best the current Me109G models but were inferior to the Fw190D models
There was an attempt to develop fuel air bombs on the part of Germany, using coal dust and liquid oxygen. In theory, that would provide great power bombs, but getting it to ignite reliably was the problem.
I have read in the past that the basic 262 design was on paper before the war but as a pure experimental aircraft for the future as the engines were still early in development and as such had no real thrust to use. I also read that this led to the first prototype air-frames to be fitted with a single propeller in place of the cannons, again due to non availability of jet engines. Part of the whole reluctance/ why bother to experiment argument has in the past been based on an idea that since the Spanish war gave the Germans time to set their tactics and how to use the planes in support roles they were feeling that they could roll over Europe quickly without much need to change anything. this proved to be true when you look at how quick they took out all but the English and that is where the pre war plans started to show their weaknesses, they were effective for land war but not for a sea or air war against quality opposition(prior to battle of Briton most aircraft used against German forces were so out of date as to be really in same class as WWI aircraft). From what i have read it appears that it was considered the English would give up to save their own skin once all mainland Europe was under control of Germany. This is borne out by the fact that there was no long range heavy bomber in Germany the closest thing they had was the condor. So with the air-force unable to deliver British surrender or peace moves the one decision that seems so strange was to attack Russia. while leaving a trapped but resilient enemy at your rear. I have also read that the German navy was planning on no war before 1945 and its rebuilding plans were on that time table due to the time to build and crew train new capital ships, so that by pushing into a war in 1938 this effectively took the navy out of the equation. Cant quote the sources i read as it was some time ago but i put it forward for discussion.
it looks like that war to be win by Germany was a long long long war needing man power, technological runner, investments in logistics, etc... a short war didn't seem to be by a long shot...
The Germans would have win the war if only they have enough time and resources..They have advance tanks..artillery..Fighter jets.and the stealth fighter...Advance weapons but im not saying that they should won but im just saying
If Hitler had had a fleet of them at Normandy he might have crippled their air cover and would have made their ships and troops sitting ducks. But maybe it wouldn't have been enough against the Soviet Union. But either way Hitler would have lasted longer if they hadn't fucked around with it. Hitler was an idiot.
Poor training, mostly. And the Me109 was a tricky plane to take off or land in. There was only a limited number of two seat conversion trainers (Me109G12) and most pilots never got any time in them.
It's impact as a day fighter was more reputation than reality. A fight between well-handled P47s and P51s and well-handled 262s would be a scoreless draw. The 262s were highly-vulnerable when taking off and landing as the engines could only be powered up slowly; they needed piston-engined fighters and large flak resources to protect them. Most pilots lacked fighter experience as engine-out issued meant bomber pilots could be converted quicker than fighter pilots. The biggest impact is rarely mentioned. Twin seat 262s culled the RAF's bombers at a great rate, notably the fast Mosquitos that few nightfighters could catch.
Another good and informative video. Makes me think what would would have happened if WW2 was delayed beyond 1939 possibly to even 1949. Germany would be more teched up so to speak but the underlining issues that you state would have still existed. But that's the reason games such as Hearts of iron exist to try these hypothesis out.
I always figured that if the 262's ever did start causing major problems for the allies the only thing that would've happened is the Brits would stop lying about the Gloster Meteor being ready for service. ;)
Great fighter though it is ,fighters are in a way defensive weapons.I mean fighters alone do not win wars,they do not pack a decisive punch.THey can certainly blunt the enemy offensive and deny the air superiority needed for victory but by the time you are reduced to building only fighters, as in the german case late war, then the writing is on the wall.So in some ways I can see that Hitler wanted to use his weapons to hit the Allies in a significant way.He was not able to admit the truth that Germany was going to lose by sheer weight of resource facing him and the only variable was when that happened.As a fighter it could not have altered that outcome.Brilliant plane though.
I think the bigger screw up was not giving Heinkel funding to keep developing jets in 1939, with the He 178. Someone should have pointed out that jets can use kerosene which meant if they developed jets it would be easier to provide fuel. More diesel for tanks, kerosene for jets.
leftcoaster67 this was not an issue kerosine or diesel it’s almost the same. Especially for the old type engines. Germany was already on the synthetic fuels so no choice about kerosene or diesel. Even the NATO fuel of to day is some mix of both.
@dimapez First impressions are everything, it’s why the electric engine Tiger was passed for the Gasoline/Diesel version instead. 10 minutes sounds like something that there is no hope saving (though I’m not a aviation fan so that might be good for a prototype)
@dimapez you call that condescending? I wasn’t even trying to be condescending at all as I don’t see where I talked down to you. Also I was just trying to expand on something which is why they probably didn’t go for it. The last part with me saying how 10 minutes doesn’t good even has a bit where I might be very wrong.
The 262 had an issue with flame outs and lacked air brakes which had issues because the pilots could not be "throttle jockey" the plane therefore increasing the pilot errors made due to alternate throttle to quickly or risk an explosion and the lack of air brakes increased the approach for landing making them extremely vulnerable for tracking allied pilots and here is where the bad throttle issues became a real issue cause if the pilot miss judged the approach on landing or gets jumped by tracking enemy fighters the pilot either had to risk crashing the plane or possibly being to quick on the throttle and having it catch fire or explode.
When people say "too little too late" about the 262, the too late bit hasn't got anything to do with the development cycle of the aircraft. It has to do with the progression of WWII. Talking about how it got rushed into service has literally no relevance to the core issue of being too late. If the first prototype 262 had rolled out 100% perfect, with no flaws what so ever and Germany had had ample resources to construct the plane and freedom to do this anywhere (so eliminating completely any question about it's rushed deployment, and Germany's manufacturing troubles) it still would have come too late. Germany was going to lose that war, unquestionably so, well before that fighter could have made a difference in combat, and even then, Germany still was going to get spanked on the ground. Time to reference Tom Clancy books - USAF Cold War joke: 2 Soviet Tank generals meet at a bar in Paris. They shake hands and the first one asks, "So who won the air war?"
Executive 1 That reamins to be seen. After all, the Allies were not lagging behind alot for jets - give them two more months and you can be sure Meteors are challenging the ME262 over the skies of Germany. To be fair, it's quite hard to imagine what would have happened, because a D-Day failure would have meant a complete change in the Allies' objectives and priority. One thing is sure though : at this point in the war, Germany is already very short in ressources. They are basically out of oil, tungsten, steel, even coal...focusing the production on the ME262 would have meant less ressources for the ground forces that were already spread thin. The jets could have delayed the victory for a few months, maybe one year. But in 1944, d-day or not, the war is already lost for Germany.
Lord Shadoko maybe it would of resulted in a separate peace with the allies if D Day failed, but Russia was going to invade germany either way so i agree they would of eventually lost
20hr engine life! Sounds like Germany was mass producing experimental prototypes! It seems the delays were not long enough. Would not the more reliable Ta-152s have done the job better... 35mph faster than the Mustang...why would a 100mph difference be so critical?
Excellent presentation where you put the ME-262 back in the context of the era it was created in. I read the book by Ver Elst André (Willie Messerschmitt, ingenieur du ciel) in French back in 1965 who was basically stating the same comments known about Hitler's involvement and reluctance. Your comments are as usual very well researched putting aside subjective emotions, etc. As a military pilot, I would add that the Me-262 is another airplane that even as it featured new designs in aeronautics (leading edge slats, swept wings, canopy, etc.), it required a "development" time (i.e. learning curve) for the pilots to use the aircraft effectively as a weapon platform since it flew "different" (similar to training a new stallion/horse). New tactics would need to be developed to cope with the closing speed of the aircraft, spool up time, etc. Thank you for sharing your work and as usual putting emotions aside with an objective view at Germany's history. Ciao, L Kapitän zur See (Ret)
@@seanmalloy7249 Actually Sean, the sliding (roller) leading edge slats appeared on the BF-109 only on the later versions (G- versions and later) which coincided with their appearance on the early Me 262 tail dragger versions... The slat principle was not "new", its practical application of free-sidetrack roller was. Ciao, L
I've head that the Gloster Meteor entered squadron service a week or so before the Me262. Does anyone have accurate sources re this? I don't doubt that the Me 262 was the first jet plane most USAF personnel became aware of. The Meteor was given the rather less glamorous role of destroying V-1s.
the range of the Metor was not enough to fly from bases in England to take on the 262. The US also put a # of P80 into northern Italy but none meet any 262's.
I initially wrote your channel off as Wehraboo circlejerking, I apologise for judging your channel so harshly and so quckly. For a youtube history channel you're remarkably objective.
according to the developers of the engines, the 262 could not have been operational any sooner than it was. Besides, converting a fighter into a fighter bomber just isn't that hard or time consuming. It was the technical aspects of the plane, the unskilled/slave labor used to manufacture it and the distress on the air industry from bombing that limited production and delivery to units.
I found this discussion about the 262 always kind of "funny" because of the year. It was already 1944! The allies did their sorties night and day and the plane was brand new. Like you mentioned in the vid, it did not even have the required testing hours bevor they put it into the field. Combined with the diversity of the German armament instead of simplyfing it, it was just a further burden on logistics and rescources. But I truely like the looks of it.
doubt so, the logistics and everything involved was - as far as I know - not worth it. In the worst case, they could have just went for obliterating the airfields, after all you can't start a Me262 on any airfield unlike a 190, 109, etc.
Underrated comment. A few days ago I watched a video where SAAB was flogging its Gripen. "It can take off from a highway!!!" Well yeah, and most high-performance jets too, if you give them a 2-3 km stretch. People underestimate the amount of logistics it takes to get even 6 jets on a mission. Fuel, bombs, missiles. Techs, spare parts. Lodging, food, water, toilets, medical. Shops. Comms. Computers. HQ. Once you drag all this into the field, all the support required by your handful of jets on that highway is a nice, big fat target. Obviously they were trying to flog this for Canada. They have no idea what it's like in Northern Canada. There are no roads.
Thank you so much, again, for the high standard of honesty, backed by research, that makes your videos so good. The last minute or two of this video, in explaining who benefits from the untrue legends so many people believe in, performs a huge public service. Most people are smart enough to arrive at a pretty good level of historical knowledge if they learn to take into account human nature and the mental inertia effect of belonging to a nation or organisation. Again, good job!
MHV- I recall reading that the first plane powered in a similar fashion (jet) was German and flew in 1937, surely a very primitive and early prototype. Have you found anything like that in your research?
There is a lot of truth in this video. However, I would like to add two things that may be important as well. 1: The Me 262 would probably not have made the impact some claim. A single weapon wouldn't have changed the overall outcome of the war. And the Me 262 was plagued with many technical problems, true. But: A fully functioning Me 262 in the hands of a good pilot was a fearsome weapon and the Allies had basically nothing in the field that was able to fight it successfully in a balanced engagement. THAT's what made it so dangerous and so hunted for by the Allies. A bit similar to the Tiger I and II - yes, very few of them, many problems etc. But that's no consolation to the crew of an M4 with a short 75mm-gun facing one of these. 2: The Luftwaffe was not very keen on long-term developments once the war had started because they thought the war would be over quickly, so long-term developments weren't really enforced. Of course, we only know with hindsight now that this was a bad idea, but some smart people back then may have had similar thoughts. This attitude not only slowed down development of the jet engines and thereby stalled the Me 262-development up to 1944 (remember that the first prototype flew way earlier), but also other jet fighter prototypes like the He 280 (which achieved more than 700 km/h back in 1942), rocket fighters like the Me 163 and of course strategic big bombers which the Germans didn't have. It took the Allies many years to develop and field things like the B-17, the Lancaster or the B-29. That kind of investment didn't happen since the Germans were always for short, blitzkrieg.type tactical warfare. Remember they thought they'd defeat Russia within a matter of months. This attitude regarding long-term projects should also be considered when thinking about this.
Nothing to counter the Me 262? The primary counter were probably the Me 262s own engines but apart from that you seem to forget the Gloster Meteor existed. A large scale introduction of the Me 262 would just have been countered by large scale introduction of allied jet fighters. And here we run into the additional problem that jet engines require materials rare in German territory so not only were they outdone in industrial capacity by probably a factor of thousand, they also lacked critical resources
One thing you missed out was the effect in time and resources used esp in engines when the is aircraft was put on the same setting/level/production as the German jet bomber before the jet was stoped/shelve/production moved to the 262
I was a friend of Mick Gorzula in Canberra, Australia; He was a former RAF Polish Pilot retired and living in Australia. It was 1996 when i knew him. He shot down a ME262 whilst flying his P51 Mustang. His kill is documented in history books which i have read. A very nice man. He dived down with max boost on the ME262. The German Pilot died as a result of a burning parachute, as i recall. In your video, it is interesting that only 8 ME262's were taken down under fire. Mick Gorzula's was one of the eight. May he and the German Pilot Rest in Peace. -Dave Scylla (Adelaide, Australia)
Dave S. I think it was early in the combat introduction of the ME 262 that the author tabulated the results, after a couple of months of combat. For the entire Combat history of the MA to 62, many more were shot down by the allies.
it was a joke about the sjw stuff, but I still don't get the term "power level"? But I made so many jokes about sjw, like Wehrmacht diversity rainbow, etc.
I doubt that since the Soviets and the American desired to create their own Jet Fighters post-war. However, both the Soviet Union and the United States had managed to use it as base for some of their jets.
I can only refer to wikipedia on this one: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Operators but I have a video of a reproduction here: th-cam.com/video/SsDZqNx9nEA/w-d-xo.html
Czechoslovakia built seven of these out of leftovr parts and used them up until the 50s. In 2004/5 some guy in the US built a few copies and one of them is now used and flown by the Messerschmitt Stifung, which was founded after the war by Willy Messerschmitt to take care of important cultural buildings in the area of germany, Austria and the parts of Europe that belonged to germany once.
The design concept of using two engines under the wings was a dinosaur which went extinct, because it inhibited maneuverability. A single or two engines in the center of gravity (in the fuselage) is far better for a jet fighter, so this design feature of the 262 was quickly dropped...
There were some instances, but quite limited given the Engine performance & reliability. Most of the Western allies went onto build their own jets with their own WW2 jet engine designs. The Russians attempted to use the German jet engines but abandoned them in favor of the British WW2 jet engines. Only the French stuck with the German designs.
Good video. Would you consider doing a video comparing German and British practice on Flying crew training and rest periods, etc? So far as I understand it Germany started WWII with a higher average tactical skill among her pilots than did Britain, but, towards the end of the war (leaving aside exceptional experts) average RAF pilots were more skillful than average German air force pilots. I have seen this put down to the RAF policy of resting experienced pilots from the front line and using them to train new pilots, while German pilots tended to fight on until they were either killed or seriously wounded. This also partly accounts for the very high kill rates of a few German aces compared to top allied aces? Wonder if you agree and think it might make a good video for your excellent channel?
Isn't it true that the first jet flew in 1839 Germany? My glancing impression that I cannot back up is that give huge initial strategic successes, this technology was not pursued, balls to the wall, hyper agressive, let's bring this online. Rather, it got back burner attention. Didn't I read somewhere that Germany did not go to full war time orientation until 1944 when Herr Speer Got involved? Hitler tried to win this on the cheap. It's difficult to show what hindsight would see as underexpenditure and lack of ultra high priority, but my best sense of, blame who you wish, is that the jet plane didn't get A1 front burner priority. Love your stuff. Truly great work from tactics, strategy, weapons systems and the dynamic of war. I watch it all, all thumbs up. I have so much to learn.
Actually Germany did find out about England's turbine research by Whittle and did a good job of copying it faster than England could get a airplane flying. Whittle having several years more experience changed his line of research from the axial flow turbines after concluding that existing materials were not advanced enough to produce blades not to mention the flame out design. So Whittle started designing what became known as the centrifugal turbines. THe advantage of the centrifugal was two fold. Instead of blades you have a large plate with fixed blades much like inside a turbocharger. And instead of one combustion chamber, you have about 7 surrounding the center of the turbine. But the disadvantage of centrifugal turbines is lower power, and they tend to have large fronts. After the war England continued it's centrifugal turbine designs and even sold their newest type to the Soviet Union in 1947. America meanwhile chose to produce axial flow turbines. Hence early Soviet jet fighters tended to be wider and shorter length, but they didn't flame out as often as American jets.
The 'up-loader' is quite right: you're quite right: Hitler wasn't responsible for the delay in either the mass production or operational deployment the 262, but not for the reasons he stated. Which "various documents", for instance, contradict Adolph Galland; how do differences of emphases within Luftwaffe High Command about its defensive or offensive capability (as a whole) impact upon the 262 introduction specifically? Willy Messerschmitt and his team designed (and always intended) the 262 to be simply a fighter, and it was only when Hitler intervened that dive bomber modifications were ordered. The successful introduction of the 262 (in quantity) prior to 'D Day', may well have altered the balance (if not the actual outcome) of the conflict. The effect, for instance, of their swooping down over the invasion beaches of Normandy may well be imagined: perhaps just what Hitler had in mind. That being said, it's interesting to note that the work on ‘hard points’ to carry bombs was successfully completed long *before* a short engine service life and other difficulties could be stabilized sufficiently to 'freeze' the design for mass production.
I wouldn't say it necessarily possessed superior technology, but I would say that it possessed superior design in a lot of ways. A lot of the early British and American Jets, as well as the Japanese attempts, really do not live up to their potential due to aerodynamics I can only describe as boneheaded. Not that Germany didn't have its own aerodynamic farces, but, well, the 262 is built as a jet. The P80 and early meteors and whatnot seem to have a lot of bad design elements for being effective jet fighters. This would include, fit example, being slower than the props they needed to kill.
The idea that the 262 was anymore built as a jet than the p80 and meteor isn't very convincing given that the early models were tail draggers and even when it got its tricycle gear it bore a fair resemblance to Messerschmitt's own piston prop 309 design.
Nice video. I could never suffer people that said "The Germans could have had the 262 in 1943 if Hitler had not insisted they put bomb racks on it! It would have changed the war!." They know nothing of aircraft, development, and can't spell retrofit. I look at them and ask them if they really believe German engineers that went from zero to V2 in about 5 years took 2 years to come up with a bomb rack? As this video points out, it is much more complicated, involves politics and mostly unreliable engines due to a number of causes... The usual technical suspect of early jet engines: Compressor efficiency, turbine temperature limits (not helped by lack of strategic materials) and the fuel control unit, however you want to call this one.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Allies wasn't too far behind having a jet fighter themselves... It would be interesting to see a vid comparing the development of both side jet fighter... I also heard Goering was not interested in the Me262. He preferred good old propeller fighter... I wonder if it's true and if it's an important factor to the delays the jet fighter suffered...
3Minotaur3 The gloster meteor was basically operational at the same time the 262 was, potentially before depending on how exactly you call it. It would then go onto quite a bit of combat throughout the war, particularly over Germany in the last month or 2.
They didn't want their new tech falling into German hands - and fair enough. The airframe wasn't much to speak of, even if it did eventually get to 580mph with better engines, but the centrifugal-compressor jet engine was a more reliable piece of technology than the German axial jets, and I can well understand the Brits not wanting the Germans to get their hands on one. The Meteor was most useful as a V-1 chaser, anyway - its raw maximum speed was slower than that of the best piston fighters, but it kept that speed down on the deck where piston fighters struggle, so it could more easily do little tricks like pull alongside and tip the V-1 into a death dive. The irony of the Meteor is that it AFAIK never made an air to air kill of any kind in WW2 and had to wait till Korea... and then in the hands of the Australians. In certain envelopes of flight it had the raw power to match a MiG-15, and the four-cannon armament gave it a reasonable chance at a kill from a fleeting shot (the MiG, of course, was the far better fighter and came out with the better score, but it didn't all go the North Koreans' way by any means).
Crag_r Interesting. I'd always thought the kill ratio was higher in favour of the MiGs (and I'm Australian, so if anything my personal bias should be towards the Meteors and minimising the NK achievement). Source?
The introduction of your vid made me think of a question: as far as I know, the retreat and defensive tactics of the Wehmacht involved a lot of counter-attacking. As you said early in the vid, much of the focus of Germany's war production was on offensive weapons. Were the tactics of counter-attacking based on efficient use of the available weapons?
2:37 Did I understand that correctly? Slightly above 50% of all Luftwaffe aircraft losses in the first half of 1944 weren't due to enemy fire. Does 'enemy fire' exclude aircraft destroyed on the ground by bombs or were the rest due to crashes? If the latter, would that rate of attrition be considered normal for the period?
As the war progressed from 1941 to 1945, the number of fighter planes the Nazi's could put in the air was the most important idea. If you could build more 109's and FW-190's, than 262's, then they were probably best suited for defense against allied bombers. Even a jet, at that time, could only shoot down so many enemy planes per sorte. Now a limited number of jet, fighter bombers could benefit giving support to friendly tanks and troops. From the ground, allied anti-aircraft fire would have had a difficult time shooting down the jets. The jets as bombers could come out of nowhere and attack enemy troops. FW-190's escorting ME-262 on attack missions, against enemy troops and tanks, would have been a deadly force!
The primary weapon of Me-262 were the four Mk.108 30mm low velocity cannons which were efficient against four-engined bombers as well (as R4M air-to-air rockets) but were not good against fast fighter escorts. I agree that it was not a good dog-fighter and therefore NOT intended to be, since the Mauser Mk151/20 20mm cannon is a better option to use against enemy fighter aircraft, like the ones armed the Fw-190D13 or the planned license-built Fiat G56. Hoping for your reply and I appreciated to your well-presented videos.
Great video, thanks! I would love to learn more about the leadership of the Luftwaffe, which seems to get a very bad rap. But, how influential were they, versus Hitler and Goering, not to mention the aviation industry and Speer? A possible video here? John in Colorado
Very informative video. I wonder if it would be possible to have English subtitles. Sometimes the thick German accent is a bit difficult to understand.
Very interesting. Although I think that had all 262s been used as fighters right from the start it would certainly have had a big impact. If not on actual allied bomber losses, most likely on allied combat morale. Imagine these almost uninterceptable beasts whizzing about unharmed through bomber formations, and the feeling of technical inferiority that it would have had on the part of bomber aircrew.
+Pascal Chauvet If the me262 had been used as bomber and attacked the invasion beaches on D-Day itself it may have made an impact. The allies would not able to stop it getting to the beaches. They may have shot some down at the beaches. How much? mmm The Luftwaffe was absent on D-Day. I believe one plane did actually spray some bullets onto the one beach.
Wasn't it Rommell who suggested to Hitler that the Allied invasion had to be stopped on the beaches or the war was lost? He proposed using the Me262 as a bomber to that end because it would be their only chance.
The only "what if?" that involves the Me262 that turns it into a potentially important war changer is the hugest "what if?". What if Germany had continued to improve it's military in size and technology for a longer period of time before starting the war, as had been discussed, and then abandoned by Hitler.
Like some others have commented, the 262 came too late in the sense, (hence it being too little too late) that there wasn't enough time for it to make an impact, there wasn't enough time for proper training with it.
mmhmm, but it was still too late, even if it was 100% working, it wouldn't have made a large difference in the war, they were still outnumbered, and there still wasn't enough time to properly train them with the new planes.
In early 1945 the Luftwaffe flew a test mission of the 262 against two different bomber attacks. The control group was about 50 262s armed with the standard compliment of 4 MK108 cannon. This flight shot down 25 bombers. A second flight of just 6 262s was armed with a combination of MK108 cannon and R4M rockets. These 6 aircraft shot down 14 bombers. Speculate about the potential of such a weapon system in 1943.
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well, I finally found a workaround myself, sorry for the delay. I hope the video on Friday won't be a problem, because I will have to schedule that and the issue that prevented setting this video to public still is unsolved.
Military History Visualized great Work!
every time is hear people say what if the 262 had been out earler i reply with what if the meteor(the jet project in general) wasn't stalled/delayed in the UK (battle of Britain with jets anyone)
110,000 subscribers? You must be doing something right :-)
420 flugzeuge. Beweis dass deutsche Generäle gevaped haben!
Military History Visualized this is an amazing channel, my family is from Hamburg, they immigrated to the U.S. in 1849.
I think some of the reason for hunting the 262's must have been morale related. Whether these were effective or not they were feared above their impact like the just like the tiger tanks. Killing the 262's on the airfields and delaying production with bombing probably made allied pilots feel a bit better about the enemy having to fight a plane that seemed to outperform their aircraft in every way.
The allies also devoted a lot of resources against the ME262 because, by 1945, there just wasn't a lot else to bomb. By March 1945, the Allies were bombing targets that would never had been considered worthwhile a year earlier, simply because everything else was badly damaged or flattened.
+Dylan Milne, I don't think the Allies animus for the Me-262 was as much "morale-related" as practical - the new jets could mostly only be engaged on takeoff and landing, and their four 30mm cannons were a fearsome weapon, just a few hits with those large explosive bullets could be devastating. The first kill for the Me-262 was a Mosquito, one of the fastest Allied planes, untouchable before the jets arrived. Fear of Death is an effective motivation.
The allies simply had nothing to do, if you want to say it in extreme. They were bored as the whole western front didnt really have any character of a full blown "all in" war, as most of the germans were exhausted, of low resources and usually many in other theaters...mostly on the eastern front.
I dont want to make it look like easy war, but compared to the eastern front, it was. At the time the US came in, it was already over arguably...thanks to only one faction...the russians! Sure they got significant supplies, but they were the ones, who fought and who made the biggest difference by a HUGE margin. They paid it with a terrifying amount of people in this and they are nearly the only decider whatsoever....not only because of me being one sided on this topic, but also by nature, that they had to land first.
No matter what...germany couldnt ever have won the war. Even if the russians were left aside and just a western front would have been opened....sooner or later, all this would have turned around nevertheless. But in that scenario I would think the world would still look way more different than we now have it. :)
They could hunt ME262 and also claim the Mustang being on par or better than a FW190, because they simply were outnumbering the enemies. No real dogfight was ever flown...also thanks to the role of a fw190 not being in any contact with fighters. That was the job of the outnumbered BF109s. So, there is no real comparison, as FWs and MEs were shot down in fights like 15 vs 2 or even worse.
Not to forget the lack of good and not exhausted pilots. Pilot training was another fail of the luftwaffe. While the US and GB ramped up pilot trainings by huge quanitities, that wasnt really a thing in the luftwaffe. Instead, the time of training simply was shortened to close a bit of that gap. But again: The real deal just happened on the other side.
@@DavidSmith-ss1cg
The Me-262 COULD be engaged in the air. The issue is that, as an interceptor, the German pilots had the tendency to just shoot you bombers then leave.
Führious, I love it! Excellent video as always!
Yes, the scale of anger is: annoyance, anger, rage, uncontrollable rage, führy.
Military History Visualized
I guess we can call it 'Fast and Fuhrerious'!
:D
obligatory ayy lmao :P
Fast and Führerlos..
Funny Farmer lol
Mein Hartzen schweim en Blut.
Puns increase the greatness of your videos. You make intresting and entertaining videos, thank you for that and keep up the good work!
My Grandfather (Austrian) talked a lot about it. Most of it is basically the same that you said, but a few details a Different:
I think that the too little to late has to be looked at differently. The Germans had the possibility to have the jet fighter earlier as Heinkel was already building prototype jetfigthers. The earlier start would have made it easier to produce more.
The other problemwas, that at the time of the war where the Me 262 was introduced most of the good pilots had already died and therefore were not available to pilot this rather complicated aircraft. For example the tail wheel made it necessary to shortly brake at a high speed to get the tail on top of the deflected jet exhaust, which was a sure way to crash for an untrained pilot.
This. By the time the 262 was rolled out into service, even had it been the wunderwaffe that it would have been without the running trail of problems, there would not have been enough 262s, fuel, and competent pilots to have made a significant impact on the war. That it _had_ all of the teething problems proves that it was rushed out too early, with insufficient testing and revision, and with inadequate materials. So _both_ the "too early" and "too little and too late" claims are correct, but for different reasons.
@@seanmalloy7249 they also lacked some rare metals they needed to keep the engines alive for more then 50 hours. I believe the British held the only source of it, somewhere in Africa.
Been waiting for a 262 video for so long
I ran across this in the book "Speer," by Joachim Fest: "Outraged by Hitler's unreasonableness, the short-tempered field marshal (Milch) had screamed back: 'My Fuhrer, the smallest infant can see this is a fighter, not a bomber aircraft.' Speechless, Hitler had left him standing there." That's what's known as speaking truth to power.
Your smooth, almost imperceptible, pun on Führer + Furious, taken with what we know about the man's temper, is 1st rate.
Very nice. As a working comedian, I salute you, sir.
Also . . .
German Turbojets were Centrifugal Flow types, while UK types were Axial flow. Both were plagued with problems in production, and in operation. The Jumo 004 was notorious for spilling fuel into the engine casing, creating pools of unspent fuel at the bottom of the casings, resulting in numerous engine fires . . . even more than those infamous DB 606/610s used for the He177. This problem nagged all Centrifugal flow turbojets, whether used for the Me262 (Jumo 004) or the He280 (HeS 8) and was, I believe, the main reason that German turbojets were so long in development.
With that said . . .
In my humble opinion, the aerial weapons the Allies feared most were the:
1) Buzz Bomb (V1), which could be shot down (but the number of sFlaK needed to ensure a 90% kill rate was phenomenal-even an island can't cover all the approaches with such weapons as they are very expensive and time consuming to produce-so, in a way, the V1 was a great success),
2) the FlaK Tower (most of our combat bomber losses were due to the 12.8cm and 10.5cm guns mounted in them), and,
3) the A4 missile, which could not be either intercepted (then or now-consider the "Scud", which is nothing else than an updated A4) nor its mobile launch sites dependably interdicted. Even those which broke apart during final dive (and most did, both then and today-which is why the Patriot Missile is a joke in that context) caused large damage to property and buildings through kinetic energy alone. If the warhead went off, well, all the better.
While Allied experten sing the praises of the Butcher Bird (Fw190), the "109", the He219, and the other interceptors, during the war we were far more concerned about the Ar234, which could provide Reconnaissance Photos of Allied Territory at a time when no other method was at hand. Reconnaissance Photography was crucial-perhaps irreplaceable is a better term-to the German War effort (and our own, of course). Even so, the really scary weapons of the upper air were those I listed numerically . . . and none was a proper piloted aircraft.
Don't get me wrong; I love the prototypes, the proof of concept vehicles, and the "what if" scenarios so popular among armchair historians . . . nothing cooler than the Ta154 . . . Ta152 . . . Wasserfall, Reintochter, the upengined Hs129 "Brick" (which is exactly what the more modern Fairchild A10 Thunderbolt 2 was in its heyday, but 30 years earlier) . . . Fritz X . . . and others, as much as any teenager reading his first "Axis Superweapons" Book . . . but . . . and it's a very big butt . . . the three systems I noted above were the real terrors in the air.
If you took time to read this I salute you. I realize how busy you must be.
^ Just to point out. The German jet engine designs were mostly axial engines. Where as the operational British jets were Centrifugal, with a few axial jet engine designs in testing.
I’m glad to have found this channel. Subbed
the fact that you quote your sources and give the references gives great credence to you're analysis. some further reading suggestions on topics would be appreciated. Fuhrious made me chortle
Your videos really help clarify (for me at least) a few of the most difficult subjects of WW2.
Each side wants to control perceptions and 70 years later it continues. But very recent history is also fought over and the perceptions of the past play a role in our perception of today.
It's very nice to get even handed and carefully crafted discussion (in English, my only language) from a guy with a German accent! I fully expect you to be dead wrong at some point, but I haven't found it yet! I'll be sure and let you know.
Thanks for doing what you do.
When I was an RAF Officer Cadet at the RAF College Cranwell (1998) Sir Frank Whittle's son gave a speech in which he mentioned the Me 262. He said the 262 was his father's favourite Nazi fighter because "it killed more Nazi pilots than allied". He also said German claims that they fielded the first jet fighter were false because all modern jets are based on Whittle's design, not the German version which was an evolutionary dead end.
+Alex Hughes
Ian Whittle was right.
The Me 262 was nerver intended as a bomber. One of the best proofs for that is the cockpit, it was very hard or even impossible to aim a bombstrike with that.
But still a good video, continue makeing these videos.
lol 1946 likes
Excellent and FACTUAL analysis with no bias. the BEST I have ever heard on the subject!
I think the "Too late" means that the plane would have had a bigger inpact in 1940 then in 1945, since the allied Planes werent as far as advanced as the me262. Its pretty logic if you think about it, I mean it would be the same with all other military tech. If a Mil.-Tech would come out way earlier it would have had a much bigger inpact in the war.
that is probably what most people mean but then it's just magical/wishful thinking.
+3vr1m
_" since the allied Planes werent as far as advanced as the me262"_
*Quite the opposite.*
The lesson from this and other inaccuracies spread by various generals who lost of war is never ever trust the words of generals who've lost a war. They're accountable to nobody anymore as their boss just got killed/deposed and they're going to be awfully eager to push blame onto others.
This was really good!
Albert Speer said, he did
Great video, as others may have commented, there is no wunderwaffe that help Germany "win the war"(besides an atom bomb, but they didn't have the resources to develop it, and didn't even develop a plane to carry it), since as soon as the allies met it in combat, they would react by how to counter it or bring in their "wunderwaffe". The Me 262 to the Gloster Meteor, the V-1 buzz bomb to the JB-2 Loon, the Fritz X to the Bat, etc, etc...
Excellent video. I had read Adolf Galland's book and had come away with the idea that Hitler had delayed the ME-262 trying to make it into a bomber. there are other sources that had supported this. Your information on the total number of operational ME-262s is an excellent point, when you consider that by 1944 the Allies were sending over thousand plane raids. Even with a kill ratio of 5 to one or more the ME-262 would have been overwhelmed.
I"m a WWII buff, but I have learned all sorts of important facts in each of your videos. Thanks.
In August 43 the B-17 attack on the Messerschmitt Factory in Regensburg destroyed the initial jigs for the 262 and forced production to be moved to other locations (some in salt mines) thus slowing production of the air frame. It wasn't until spring of 1944 that mass produced engines started to become available for the 262 as they developed work-arounds for the shortage of strategic metals. Another consideration. Messerschmitt wanted to build the Me-209, an updated 109 where the major flaws of the 109 were "fixed", rather than build the jet. That might have been the better route. The 209 would have used less resources to produce, less maintenance, less conversion training, and far less fuel (probably about 20% as much as the 262 for the same number of missions - although it has been claimed that jet fuel was more readily available than high octane fuel).
The 209 was to be powered by the DB603 engine IIRC, which was very expensive. The Junkers Jumo 004 used less material and was massively cheaper and easier to produce. This was one of the driving factors for the development of jet aircraft.
Both the Me209 and 309 were technical failures whose performance matched, at best the current Me109G models but were inferior to the Fw190D models
Good very good. You should do a video about how expensive the Me 262 was too operate as well as opposed to allied fighters.
There was an attempt to develop fuel air bombs on the part of Germany, using coal dust and liquid oxygen. In theory, that would provide great power bombs, but getting it to ignite reliably was the problem.
I have read in the past that the basic 262 design was on paper before the war but as a pure experimental aircraft for the future as the engines were still early in development and as such had no real thrust to use. I also read that this led to the first prototype air-frames to be fitted with a single propeller in place of the cannons, again due to non availability of jet engines. Part of the whole reluctance/ why bother to experiment argument has in the past been based on an idea that since the Spanish war gave the Germans time to set their tactics and how to use the planes in support roles they were feeling that they could roll over Europe quickly without much need to change anything. this proved to be true when you look at how quick they took out all but the English and that is where the pre war plans started to show their weaknesses, they were effective for land war but not for a sea or air war against quality opposition(prior to battle of Briton most aircraft used against German forces were so out of date as to be really in same class as WWI aircraft). From what i have read it appears that it was considered the English would give up to save their own skin once all mainland Europe was under control of Germany. This is borne out by the fact that there was no long range heavy bomber in Germany the closest thing they had was the condor. So with the air-force unable to deliver British surrender or peace moves the one decision that seems so strange was to attack Russia. while leaving a trapped but resilient enemy at your rear. I have also read that the German navy was planning on no war before 1945 and its rebuilding plans were on that time table due to the time to build and crew train new capital ships, so that by pushing into a war in 1938 this effectively took the navy out of the equation. Cant quote the sources i read as it was some time ago but i put it forward for discussion.
it looks like that war to be win by Germany was a long long long war needing man power, technological runner, investments in logistics, etc... a short war didn't seem to be by a long shot...
The Germans would have win the war if only they have enough time and resources..They have advance tanks..artillery..Fighter jets.and the stealth fighter...Advance weapons but im not saying that they should won but im just saying
if thats what all say if i had time troops new tanks ect
If Hitler had had a fleet of them at Normandy he might have crippled their air cover and would have made their ships and troops sitting ducks.
But maybe it wouldn't have been enough against the Soviet Union. But either way Hitler would have lasted longer if they hadn't fucked around with it. Hitler was an idiot.
führious
Definitely vin/vin for everyone!
Why were the german losses not from enemy fire so high?
losses from non-enemy fire with planes are quite high in general, but for the Me262 it is probably also due to various problem with engines, etc.
Poor training, mostly. And the Me109 was a tricky plane to take off or land in. There was only a limited number of two seat conversion trainers (Me109G12) and most pilots never got any time in them.
All I have to say is "They all should have been fighters."
It's impact as a day fighter was more reputation than reality. A fight between well-handled P47s and P51s and well-handled 262s would be a scoreless draw. The 262s were highly-vulnerable when taking off and landing as the engines could only be powered up slowly; they needed piston-engined fighters and large flak resources to protect them. Most pilots lacked fighter experience as engine-out issued meant bomber pilots could be converted quicker than fighter pilots.
The biggest impact is rarely mentioned. Twin seat 262s culled the RAF's bombers at a great rate, notably the fast Mosquitos that few nightfighters could catch.
Also, its high speed meant that it had little time to shoot bombers unless it made itself vulnerable to protecting fighters by slowing down.
Could you please reference where Mosquitoes were culled at a great rate by the Me 262...
The key parameter was engine availability - none of the other factors delayed production and use beyond engine-related delays.
Another good and informative video. Makes me think what would would have happened if WW2 was delayed beyond 1939 possibly to even 1949. Germany would be more teched up so to speak but the underlining issues that you state would have still existed. But that's the reason games such as Hearts of iron exist to try these hypothesis out.
I always figured that if the 262's ever did start causing major problems for the allies the only thing that would've happened is the Brits would stop lying about the Gloster Meteor being ready for service. ;)
Great fighter though it is ,fighters are in a way defensive weapons.I mean fighters alone do not win wars,they do not pack a decisive punch.THey can certainly blunt the enemy offensive and deny the air superiority needed for victory but by the time you are reduced to building only fighters, as in the german case late war, then the writing is on the wall.So in some ways I can see that Hitler wanted to use his weapons to hit the Allies in a significant way.He was not able to admit the truth that Germany was going to lose by sheer weight of resource facing him and the only variable was when that happened.As a fighter it could not have altered that outcome.Brilliant plane though.
Another excellent, well-balanced video. Well done. :-)
do a video about why japan lost at the battle of midway
I think the bigger screw up was not giving Heinkel funding to keep developing jets in 1939, with the He 178. Someone should have pointed out that jets can use kerosene which meant if they developed jets it would be easier to provide fuel. More diesel for tanks, kerosene for jets.
I believe that most German tanks had gasoline engines. It was the Soviets who used diesel engines.
leftcoaster67 this was not an issue
kerosine or diesel it’s almost the same. Especially for the old type engines.
Germany was already on the synthetic fuels so no choice about kerosene or diesel.
Even the NATO fuel of to day is some mix of both.
@dimapez First impressions are everything, it’s why the electric engine Tiger was passed for the Gasoline/Diesel version instead. 10 minutes sounds like something that there is no hope saving (though I’m not a aviation fan so that might be good for a prototype)
@dimapez you call that condescending? I wasn’t even trying to be condescending at all as I don’t see where I talked down to you.
Also I was just trying to expand on something which is why they probably didn’t go for it.
The last part with me saying how 10 minutes doesn’t good even has a bit where I might be very wrong.
Jets used, I think, four times as much fuel as piston engines. The Germans lacked quantity, not quality.
The 262 had an issue with flame outs and lacked air brakes which had issues because the pilots could not be "throttle jockey" the plane therefore increasing the pilot errors made due to alternate throttle to quickly or risk an explosion and the lack of air brakes increased the approach for landing making them extremely vulnerable for tracking allied pilots and here is where the bad throttle issues became a real issue cause if the pilot miss judged the approach on landing or gets jumped by tracking enemy fighters the pilot either had to risk crashing the plane or possibly being to quick on the throttle and having it catch fire or explode.
The throttle problem was largely mitigated by modifications by the autumn of 1944
He 280. that is all.
When people say "too little too late" about the 262, the too late bit hasn't got anything to do with the development cycle of the aircraft. It has to do with the progression of WWII. Talking about how it got rushed into service has literally no relevance to the core issue of being too late. If the first prototype 262 had rolled out 100% perfect, with no flaws what so ever and Germany had had ample resources to construct the plane and freedom to do this anywhere (so eliminating completely any question about it's rushed deployment, and Germany's manufacturing troubles) it still would have come too late. Germany was going to lose that war, unquestionably so, well before that fighter could have made a difference in combat, and even then, Germany still was going to get spanked on the ground. Time to reference Tom Clancy books - USAF Cold War joke: 2 Soviet Tank generals meet at a bar in Paris. They shake hands and the first one asks, "So who won the air war?"
Good remark - what you said could actually have been said for any german "Wunderwaffen". All of them came way too late to have any impact on the war.
but if D day would of failed it would of delayed the war about 4-6 months and that might of been enough time to fix the problem and develop them
Executive 1
Maybe but 4-6 more months would also mean Berlin would have taken a nuclear bomb to the face
Executive 1
That reamins to be seen. After all, the Allies were not lagging behind alot for jets - give them two more months and you can be sure Meteors are challenging the ME262 over the skies of Germany.
To be fair, it's quite hard to imagine what would have happened, because a D-Day failure would have meant a complete change in the Allies' objectives and priority. One thing is sure though : at this point in the war, Germany is already very short in ressources. They are basically out of oil, tungsten, steel, even coal...focusing the production on the ME262 would have meant less ressources for the ground forces that were already spread thin. The jets could have delayed the victory for a few months, maybe one year. But in 1944, d-day or not, the war is already lost for Germany.
Lord Shadoko maybe it would of resulted in a separate peace with the allies if D Day failed, but Russia was going to invade germany either way so i agree they would of eventually lost
20hr engine life! Sounds like Germany was mass producing experimental prototypes! It seems the delays were not long enough. Would not the more reliable Ta-152s have done the job better... 35mph faster than the Mustang...why would a 100mph difference be so critical?
Excellent presentation where you put the ME-262 back in the context of the era it was created in. I read the book by Ver Elst André (Willie Messerschmitt, ingenieur du ciel) in French back in 1965 who was basically stating the same comments known about Hitler's involvement and reluctance. Your comments are as usual very well researched putting aside subjective emotions, etc. As a military pilot, I would add that the Me-262 is another airplane that even as it featured new designs in aeronautics (leading edge slats, swept wings, canopy, etc.), it required a "development" time (i.e. learning curve) for the pilots to use the aircraft effectively as a weapon platform since it flew "different" (similar to training a new stallion/horse). New tactics would need to be developed to cope with the closing speed of the aircraft, spool up time, etc.
Thank you for sharing your work and as usual putting emotions aside with an objective view at Germany's history.
Ciao, L Kapitän zur See (Ret)
The Bf 109 had automatic leading edge slats; they were hardly new with the 262.
@@seanmalloy7249 Actually Sean, the sliding (roller) leading edge slats appeared on the BF-109 only on the later versions (G- versions and later) which coincided with their appearance on the early Me 262 tail dragger versions... The slat principle was not "new", its practical application of free-sidetrack roller was. Ciao, L
I've head that the Gloster Meteor entered squadron service a week or so before the Me262. Does anyone have accurate sources re this? I don't doubt that the Me 262 was the first jet plane most USAF personnel became aware of. The Meteor was given the rather less glamorous role of destroying V-1s.
the range of the Metor was not enough to fly from bases in England to take on the 262. The US also put a # of P80 into northern Italy but none meet any 262's.
I initially wrote your channel off as Wehraboo circlejerking, I apologise for judging your channel so harshly and so quckly. For a youtube history channel you're remarkably objective.
well, we all make mistakes, what make you believe that I was a Wehraboo?
Hi, may I ask if it is convenient for you to add subtitles? My english-listening skill is not good. Thanks~
according to the developers of the engines, the 262 could not have been operational any sooner than it was. Besides, converting a fighter into a fighter bomber just isn't that hard or time consuming. It was the technical aspects of the plane, the unskilled/slave labor used to manufacture it and the distress on the air industry from bombing that limited production and delivery to units.
I found this discussion about the 262 always kind of "funny" because of the year. It was already 1944! The allies did their sorties night and day and the plane was brand new. Like you mentioned in the vid, it did not even have the required testing hours bevor they put it into the field. Combined with the diversity of the German armament instead of simplyfing it, it was just a further burden on logistics and rescources.
But I truely like the looks of it.
HEY @Military History Visualised ! Can we expect a video exclusively ABOUT the plane anytime soon? ;)
well, as far as I know someone is working on a video for quite some time on the Me262, but it's not me. I guess it will be out soon.
Military History Visualized Your form would be better :)
Would a larger-scale introduction of the Me-262 just have forced the allies to push for an earlier introduction of their own jets like the P-80?
doubt so, the logistics and everything involved was - as far as I know - not worth it. In the worst case, they could have just went for obliterating the airfields, after all you can't start a Me262 on any airfield unlike a 190, 109, etc.
Military History Visualized didn't they use the Autobahn to take off the 262s in the last months of the war? I remember hearing that somewhere...
could be, but you still need proper logistics and everything and once you have a "fixed" base, bomber spam.
Underrated comment. A few days ago I watched a video where SAAB was flogging its Gripen. "It can take off from a highway!!!" Well yeah, and most high-performance jets too, if you give them a 2-3 km stretch. People underestimate the amount of logistics it takes to get even 6 jets on a mission. Fuel, bombs, missiles. Techs, spare parts. Lodging, food, water, toilets, medical. Shops. Comms. Computers. HQ. Once you drag all this into the field, all the support required by your handful of jets on that highway is a nice, big fat target. Obviously they were trying to flog this for Canada. They have no idea what it's like in Northern Canada. There are no roads.
Thank you so much, again, for the high standard of honesty, backed by research, that makes your videos so good. The last minute or two of this video, in explaining who benefits from the untrue legends so many people believe in, performs a huge public service. Most people are smart enough to arrive at a pretty good level of historical knowledge if they learn to take into account human nature and the mental inertia effect of belonging to a nation or organisation. Again, good job!
Oh, I love this channel!
MHV- I recall reading that the first plane powered in a similar fashion (jet) was German and flew in 1937, surely a very primitive and early prototype. Have you found anything like that in your research?
Can you do a segment on the Armament Miracle- I need to know more about it, also, can you suggest any books on the subject?
There is a lot of truth in this video. However, I would like to add two things that may be important as well.
1: The Me 262 would probably not have made the impact some claim. A single weapon wouldn't have changed the overall outcome of the war. And the Me 262 was plagued with many technical problems, true. But: A fully functioning Me 262 in the hands of a good pilot was a fearsome weapon and the Allies had basically nothing in the field that was able to fight it successfully in a balanced engagement. THAT's what made it so dangerous and so hunted for by the Allies. A bit similar to the Tiger I and II - yes, very few of them, many problems etc. But that's no consolation to the crew of an M4 with a short 75mm-gun facing one of these.
2: The Luftwaffe was not very keen on long-term developments once the war had started because they thought the war would be over quickly, so long-term developments weren't really enforced. Of course, we only know with hindsight now that this was a bad idea, but some smart people back then may have had similar thoughts. This attitude not only slowed down development of the jet engines and thereby stalled the Me 262-development up to 1944 (remember that the first prototype flew way earlier), but also other jet fighter prototypes like the He 280 (which achieved more than 700 km/h back in 1942), rocket fighters like the Me 163 and of course strategic big bombers which the Germans didn't have. It took the Allies many years to develop and field things like the B-17, the Lancaster or the B-29. That kind of investment didn't happen since the Germans were always for short, blitzkrieg.type tactical warfare. Remember they thought they'd defeat Russia within a matter of months. This attitude regarding long-term projects should also be considered when thinking about this.
Nothing to counter the Me 262? The primary counter were probably the Me 262s own engines but apart from that you seem to forget the Gloster Meteor existed.
A large scale introduction of the Me 262 would just have been countered by large scale introduction of allied jet fighters. And here we run into the additional problem that jet engines require materials rare in German territory so not only were they outdone in industrial capacity by probably a factor of thousand, they also lacked critical resources
One thing you missed out was the effect in time and resources used esp in engines when the is aircraft was put on the same setting/level/production as the German jet bomber before the jet was stoped/shelve/production moved to the 262
We get to blame Hitler? Everyone please get in line to blame Hitler. No pushing.
Those damned low velocity MK 108s. Boo...
Please do a video on the battle of the Seelow Heights and the Battle of Berlin! LOVING THE VIDEOS!!!
I was a friend of Mick Gorzula in Canberra, Australia; He was a former RAF Polish Pilot retired and living in Australia. It was 1996 when i knew him. He shot down a ME262 whilst flying his P51 Mustang. His kill is documented in history books which i have read. A very nice man. He dived down with max boost on the ME262. The German Pilot died as a result of a burning parachute, as i recall. In your video, it is interesting that only 8 ME262's were taken down under fire. Mick Gorzula's was one of the eight. May he and the German Pilot Rest in Peace. -Dave Scylla (Adelaide, Australia)
Dave S. I think it was early in the combat introduction of the ME 262 that the author tabulated the results, after a couple of months of combat. For the entire Combat history of the MA to 62, many more were shot down by the allies.
Great video. Keep up the work
4:05 what happened with the non-accepted ones? and were they not accepted because of bad construction?
i am also intrigued
***** a what?
Telsion recycled
cannibalized for parts most probable scenario
Production defects, cannibalized for parts or other lacking aspects.
Great video! Thank you for sharing so much good knowledge and analysis.
#NotAll262 revealing your power level a little?
what you mean with power level?
#Notall262 #Notallmuslims :^) ?
#NotAllSerbs
it was a joke about the sjw stuff, but I still don't get the term "power level"? But I made so many jokes about sjw, like Wehrmacht diversity rainbow, etc.
ahh wait, it that usually only used to refer to one's own "group"?
Thank you for this Video.
Nazi jokes make me Führious, too. Also, excellent presentation, mate.
Great video. Thank you!
Thanks for the video this has always been a huge what if question for me, particularly if they had me262 fighters on D-Day
Thanks for making it
My pleasure 😊
Did anyone continue the production of these planes after the war?? It is a beautiful piece of engineering
I doubt that since the Soviets and the American desired to create their own Jet Fighters post-war. However, both the Soviet Union and the United States had managed to use it as base for some of their jets.
I can only refer to wikipedia on this one: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Operators
but I have a video of a reproduction here: th-cam.com/video/SsDZqNx9nEA/w-d-xo.html
Czechoslovakia built seven of these out of leftovr parts and used them up until the 50s. In 2004/5 some guy in the US built a few copies and one of them is now used and flown by the Messerschmitt Stifung, which was founded after the war by Willy Messerschmitt to take care of important cultural buildings in the area of germany, Austria and the parts of Europe that belonged to germany once.
The design concept of using two engines under the wings was a dinosaur which went extinct, because it inhibited maneuverability.
A single or two engines in the center of gravity (in the fuselage) is far better for a jet fighter, so this design feature of the 262 was quickly dropped...
There were some instances, but quite limited given the Engine performance & reliability. Most of the Western allies went onto build their own jets with their own WW2 jet engine designs. The Russians attempted to use the German jet engines but abandoned them in favor of the British WW2 jet engines. Only the French stuck with the German designs.
Good video. Would you consider doing a video comparing German and British practice on Flying crew training and rest periods, etc?
So far as I understand it Germany started WWII with a higher average tactical skill among her pilots than did Britain, but, towards the end of the war (leaving aside exceptional experts) average RAF pilots were more skillful than average German air force pilots. I have seen this put down to the RAF policy of resting experienced pilots from the front line and using them to train new pilots, while German pilots tended to fight on until they were either killed or seriously wounded. This also partly accounts for the very high kill rates of a few German aces compared to top allied aces? Wonder if you agree and think it might make a good video for your excellent channel?
Isn't it true that the first jet flew in 1839 Germany? My glancing impression that I cannot back up is that give huge initial strategic successes, this technology was not pursued, balls to the wall, hyper agressive, let's bring this online. Rather, it got back burner attention. Didn't I read somewhere that Germany did not go to full war time orientation until 1944 when Herr Speer Got involved? Hitler tried to win this on the cheap. It's difficult to show what hindsight would see as underexpenditure and lack of ultra high priority, but my best sense of, blame who you wish, is that the jet plane didn't get A1 front burner priority. Love your stuff. Truly great work from tactics, strategy, weapons systems and the dynamic of war. I watch it all, all thumbs up. I have so much to learn.
The first turbo jet flew in Germany in 1939. It was a flop and R&D was cut back.
Actually Germany did find out about England's turbine research by Whittle and did a good job of copying it faster than England could get a airplane flying. Whittle having several years more experience changed his line of research from the axial flow turbines after concluding that existing materials were not advanced enough to produce blades not to mention the flame out design. So Whittle started designing what became known as the centrifugal turbines. THe advantage of the centrifugal was two fold. Instead of blades you have a large plate with fixed blades much like inside a turbocharger. And instead of one combustion chamber, you have about 7 surrounding the center of the turbine. But the disadvantage of centrifugal turbines is lower power, and they tend to have large fronts. After the war England continued it's centrifugal turbine designs and even sold their newest type to the Soviet Union in 1947. America meanwhile chose to produce axial flow turbines. Hence early Soviet jet fighters tended to be wider and shorter length, but they didn't flame out as often as American jets.
1839?
@@PORRRIDGE_GUN typo, 1938. 80 hour work weeks putting my daughter through college. You knew that tho?
6:00 So the Me262 was the WunderWaffen(miracle weapon)?
The 'up-loader' is quite right: you're quite right: Hitler wasn't responsible for the delay in either the mass production or operational deployment the 262, but not for the reasons he stated. Which "various documents", for instance, contradict Adolph Galland; how do differences of emphases within Luftwaffe High Command about its defensive or offensive capability (as a whole) impact upon the 262 introduction specifically? Willy Messerschmitt and his team designed (and always intended) the 262 to be simply a fighter, and it was only when Hitler intervened that dive bomber modifications were ordered. The successful introduction of the 262 (in quantity) prior to 'D Day', may well have altered the balance (if not the actual outcome) of the conflict. The effect, for instance, of their swooping down over the invasion beaches of Normandy may well be imagined: perhaps just what Hitler had in mind. That being said, it's interesting to note that the work on ‘hard points’ to carry bombs was successfully completed long *before* a short engine service life and other difficulties could be stabilized sufficiently to 'freeze' the design for mass production.
U need to add English subtilt. U will get a broader audience which u deserve because ur videos are very good
I wouldn't say it necessarily possessed superior technology, but I would say that it possessed superior design in a lot of ways. A lot of the early British and American Jets, as well as the Japanese attempts, really do not live up to their potential due to aerodynamics I can only describe as boneheaded. Not that Germany didn't have its own aerodynamic farces, but, well, the 262 is built as a jet. The P80 and early meteors and whatnot seem to have a lot of bad design elements for being effective jet fighters. This would include, fit example, being slower than the props they needed to kill.
The idea that the 262 was anymore built as a jet than the p80 and meteor isn't very convincing given that the early models were tail draggers and even when it got its tricycle gear it bore a fair resemblance to Messerschmitt's own piston prop 309 design.
Nice video. I could never suffer people that said "The Germans could have had the 262 in 1943 if Hitler had not insisted they put bomb racks on it! It would have changed the war!." They know nothing of aircraft, development, and can't spell retrofit. I look at them and ask them if they really believe German engineers that went from zero to V2 in about 5 years took 2 years to come up with a bomb rack? As this video points out, it is much more complicated, involves politics and mostly unreliable engines due to a number of causes... The usual technical suspect of early jet engines: Compressor efficiency, turbine temperature limits (not helped by lack of strategic materials) and the fuel control unit, however you want to call this one.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Allies wasn't too far behind having a jet fighter themselves... It would be interesting to see a vid comparing the development of both side jet fighter...
I also heard Goering was not interested in the Me262. He preferred good old propeller fighter... I wonder if it's true and if it's an important factor to the delays the jet fighter suffered...
At a guess I would say they didn't have the logistics ready to deploy these fighters in France and Germany at quick notice.
3Minotaur3 The gloster meteor was basically operational at the same time the 262 was, potentially before depending on how exactly you call it. It would then go onto quite a bit of combat throughout the war, particularly over Germany in the last month or 2.
They didn't want their new tech falling into German hands - and fair enough. The airframe wasn't much to speak of, even if it did eventually get to 580mph with better engines, but the centrifugal-compressor jet engine was a more reliable piece of technology than the German axial jets, and I can well understand the Brits not wanting the Germans to get their hands on one.
The Meteor was most useful as a V-1 chaser, anyway - its raw maximum speed was slower than that of the best piston fighters, but it kept that speed down on the deck where piston fighters struggle, so it could more easily do little tricks like pull alongside and tip the V-1 into a death dive.
The irony of the Meteor is that it AFAIK never made an air to air kill of any kind in WW2 and had to wait till Korea... and then in the hands of the Australians. In certain envelopes of flight it had the raw power to match a MiG-15, and the four-cannon armament gave it a reasonable chance at a kill from a fleeting shot (the MiG, of course, was the far better fighter and came out with the better score, but it didn't all go the North Koreans' way by any means).
Even then in Korea the F.8's killed 5 MiG-15's for losing 6 of their own to them.
Crag_r Interesting. I'd always thought the kill ratio was higher in favour of the MiGs (and I'm Australian, so if anything my personal bias should be towards the Meteors and minimising the NK achievement). Source?
The introduction of your vid made me think of a question: as far as I know, the retreat and defensive tactics of the Wehmacht involved a lot of counter-attacking. As you said early in the vid, much of the focus of Germany's war production was on offensive weapons. Were the tactics of counter-attacking based on efficient use of the available weapons?
2:37 Did I understand that correctly? Slightly above 50% of all Luftwaffe aircraft losses in the first half of 1944 weren't due to enemy fire. Does 'enemy fire' exclude aircraft destroyed on the ground by bombs or were the rest due to crashes? If the latter, would that rate of attrition be considered normal for the period?
As the war progressed from 1941 to 1945, the number of fighter planes the Nazi's could put in the air was the most important idea. If you could build more 109's and FW-190's, than 262's, then they were probably best suited for defense against allied bombers. Even a jet, at that time, could only shoot down so many enemy planes per sorte. Now a limited number of jet, fighter bombers could benefit giving support to friendly tanks and troops. From the ground, allied anti-aircraft fire would have had a difficult time shooting down the jets. The jets as bombers could come out of nowhere and attack enemy troops. FW-190's escorting ME-262 on attack missions, against enemy troops and tanks, would have been a deadly force!
The primary weapon of Me-262 were the four Mk.108 30mm low velocity cannons which were efficient against four-engined bombers as well (as R4M air-to-air rockets) but were not good against fast fighter escorts. I agree that it was not a good dog-fighter and therefore NOT intended to be, since the Mauser Mk151/20 20mm cannon is a better option to use against enemy fighter aircraft, like the ones armed the Fw-190D13 or the planned license-built Fiat G56.
Hoping for your reply and I appreciated to your well-presented videos.
How about the German He 280? Why Me 262 and not develop He 280? The first test flight was much earlier.
Your accent is amazing
Correct. Well-researched. Many thanks.
will you make a video about how useful was the fortres of Kurland?
Great video, thanks! I would love to learn more about the leadership of the Luftwaffe, which seems to get a very bad rap. But, how influential were they, versus Hitler and Goering, not to mention the aviation industry and Speer? A possible video here?
John in Colorado
Very informative video. I wonder if it would be possible to have English subtitles. Sometimes the thick German accent is a bit difficult to understand.
Very interesting. Although I think that had all 262s been used as fighters right from the start it would certainly have had a big impact. If not on actual allied bomber losses, most likely on allied combat morale. Imagine these almost uninterceptable beasts whizzing about unharmed through bomber formations, and the feeling of technical inferiority that it would have had on the part of bomber aircrew.
+Pascal Chauvet
If the me262 had been used as bomber and attacked the invasion beaches on D-Day itself it may have made an impact. The allies would not able to stop it getting to the beaches. They may have shot some down at the beaches. How much? mmm The Luftwaffe was absent on D-Day. I believe one plane did actually spray some bullets onto the one beach.
Wasn't it Rommell who suggested to Hitler that the Allied invasion had to be stopped on the beaches or the war was lost? He proposed using the Me262 as a bomber to that end because it would be their only chance.
Please make a video of the early WWII problems with torpedos in both German and US submarine forces.
2:47 never thought test results where that bad on the 262.... Now compare that to the first field test of the he219...
off topic: who sings the metal song at the end of your videos?
The only "what if?" that involves the Me262 that turns it into a potentially important war changer is the hugest "what if?". What if Germany had continued to improve it's military in size and technology for a longer period of time before starting the war, as had been discussed, and then abandoned by Hitler.
They would run out of money and resources.
Like some others have commented, the 262 came too late in the sense, (hence it being too little too late) that there wasn't enough time for it to make an impact, there wasn't enough time for proper training with it.
The me262 came too early. It was a prototype rushed into service, when it was unsuitable for service.
mmhmm, but it was still too late, even if it was 100% working, it wouldn't have made a large difference in the war, they were still outnumbered, and there still wasn't enough time to properly train them with the new planes.
I like the conclusion of the video, very much!
In early 1945 the Luftwaffe flew a test mission of the 262 against two different bomber attacks.
The control group was about 50 262s armed with the standard compliment of 4 MK108 cannon. This flight shot down 25 bombers.
A second flight of just 6 262s was armed with a combination of MK108 cannon and R4M rockets. These 6 aircraft shot down 14 bombers.
Speculate about the potential of such a weapon system in 1943.