I bought a Renault Zoe Q90 Z.E. 40 in May 2018, because that's the best for my needs. Why? It has a 41 kWh Battery and it can charge with 43 kW, not only 22 kW. The Type 2 charger is most available charging stations. Fast charging isn't needed at home, but when driving big distance. I can drive round about 300 km with one battery charge and it needs 1 hour to recharge again. My hypermiling was 396 km with one charge. Also important for me was the price.. Best price has the Renault Zoe. You can buy the Zoe *without* battery lease, but then you have to buy the battery for 8,000 Euros and it's yours, even if it gets damaged, or loosing capacity. I thought about buying or leasing, but I choose leasing and I choose the biggest option for unlimited mileage.
I drive my girlfriends i3 a lot it’s a fun car to drive. However the doors look cool when you open them but there not practical in real world when trying to get the kids out in supermarkets. Not having the 5th seat is another down side socially. The thin tyres also I find are a little unstable on motorway driving the car feels very wobbly sometimes. The boot space is seriously small also. The car also gets very hot inside when the range extender is running too. But apart from that it does have some great points it is enjoyable nipping about and it leaves boy racers for Dust which I find so entertaining 😂 even super bikes struggle to keep up till it reaches 60 mph I ride motorcycles too and this car gives you a simlair feel of how fast you can overtake etc. If I could change anything about the i3 it would be to have wider tyres a bigger boot a extra seat and a more upto date dash screen as bmw seem to lack touch screen like the Tesla screen. Navigating a screen with a wheel and button is so old school like something from the days of when people had Nokia phones. It’s like a car made by Apple with a Nokia text style. They need to inject cash into there firmware and get touch screens and better voice recognition oh and better speakers as there very tinny
People who are looking for a used car, almost never want one only 6 months old (where the depreciation is minimal). They are usually looking for best value, and that comes in at around 3 to 5 years old. Or if they are on a tight budget, they are looking at cars 10 years old and not at all in the price range of any electric or hybrid car. You can buy an immaculate low mileage (under 25K miles) one owner first series 2015-2016 BMW i3-REX from about £14K. That may have a low electric range, but you can keep topping up with petrol for an extra 60 miles each time and with no worries about where or how to fill up.
Great comparison video! Can you speak any toward the maintenance costs short & long term? Which I know electric cars, in general, have way less maintenance. I've always heard that with BMW gasoline model cars have been described as a money pit due to repair costs. But maybe it's different for the electric car version. Any ideas how the Leaf and BMW compare on repair costs? Thanks!
I bought a 2nd hand leaf just over a year ago and really ended up with it for much the same reasons. The Zoe was unobtainable (and the battery lease made no sense financially) and Renault did a pretty much textbook approach in 'how not to manage to sell any car to someone wanting to by a car'. The Ionic (the other car I was interested in) I couldn't even get a test drive in for 6 months (according to my nearest dealer). No regrets with the Leaf although with a 24 kWh battery, whilst it's fine for my day to day driving, I'm less comfortable going any distance - North Wales is lacking in charging infrastructure at this time! PCP runs until 2020 by which time I'm expecting a lot more choice in the 2nd hand market :)
I am looking to replace my Zoe and would agree with you on the Renault dealers. They don't have a clue about Zoes. A quick scan of autotrader will show up Zoe 'i's that are battery lease(???), cars just sold as the Zoe with no information about battery size, motor fitted or lease/'i' and even a ZE40 that is advertised as a 22kWh model. They really are trying to stop that one finding a buyer.
@@Zimpaz I'd definitely recommend the 30 over the 24 (I had one for 18 months) just for the extra bit of range. In the summer the 30kWh would manage about 130 miles range versus 90 for the 24kWh. In the winter the 30kWh managed about 100 miles versus 65 for the 24kWh.
No you want I use my Zoe on a daily basis and it is fit for purpose. The lease bit I hated to until the battery had an issue and the work was for around 8k it was taken in by Renault they gave me a brand new car for the duration of the repairing time and it was free repair honestly the lease is £49 a month and now you do the mats if you have an issue you will be covered for free. Nothing against the leaf and I like the I3 but the price is to dear for me.
Lease is a viable option for a second-hand purchase as the Zoe is then much cheaper as you're only buying half the package while Renault carry the depreciation of the other half of the investment - if you can ever call a car at this level an investment LOL. If you have a Zoe with leased battery annual depreciation after year one is really quite a slow affair since the value of your asset is have that of a comparible Leaf. Add to that the £49/month battery lease and most drivers are quids in
I've just purchased a used leaf. I wanted a Zoe because I liked the way it drove and it fits in my garage better. But my two bosses, my wife and daughter, sat in the back of the Zoe on the test drive and they both hated it. Said they moved all over the place when cornering and it was very bumpy in the back. So we went for a test drive in the leaf and they both loved the ride. I personally like the look of the Zoe, as you do, but my wife likes the quirky looks of the leaf. I'm not that keen. As you said, the i3 is too expensive. I go for comfort over sportiness, so never tried the i3. The Zoe wins hands down for range though. We have the 24kwh leaf and after a month, still have not plucked up the courage to go far. I just don't have the confidence in the charging network. The leaf is a great all rounder for quality and ride, and the acceleration is more than adequate.
Electric Vehicle Man Yeh, I know. Seen most of them but when you've got a battery at 82%SOH, and the nearest charger is about 35 miles away a according to zap, just can't get the courage up to diva test drive there yet. I will have to get out at some point though. 😓
Love your comment about your wife and daughter being your bosses. I have the 24 kWh leaf and like it but can't drive long distance in it because of charging infrastructure. The U.K. Has a lot better set up at least the ecotricity network. Near Gloucester were @rualleafowner Ian Sampson lives. He now has a Zoe and loves it but has a boatloads of videos on traveling in his leaf on the network all the way to como and exeter
Toby Jackson thanks for your comment. I know you are right. I hope that once I have done it, I will venture further afield. My wife wants us to go for a trip to Hever Castle, and can make it there ok, but it appears they only have one or two destination points available which will almost certainly be occupied. This is a problem with such a short range car. Just can't fill up at enough places. There is a ecotricity fast charger on the way in one direction, which i have just set up an account , so it would be cutting it fine for the journey home. I am hoping I can just sign up as I go for all the other fast chargers. Watching others setting up accounts on the fly says to me that I worry too much, pethaps. But I have taken the first big step into electric car ownership, and really enjoying my every day usage. Brilliant.
Ive driven 700km in one day in my 2012 leaf - one bar lost. And i had to charge 6times on the trip. Mostly motorway at 90km/h. And the longest stop was 20min. Usually just 10-15min on the others. And even tho supercharging is «expensive» i saved 1500nok or 170£ driving my electric car than using my brothers Passat. I planned to do so because of the huge distance..
You need to look at this version of the i3: www.google.com/search?q=bmw+i3s+white&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&source=android-browser&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOhrj26YHuAhXxzIUKHUs8Cv4Q_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=412&bih=750&dpr=2.63#imgrc=GINCp8R1vh4hTM
When our Zoe was written off the underwriters refused to pay out on the battery as they said with it being a separate lease it needed a separate insurance contract so beware of this pitfall
Steven Barrett That's very interesting. I suppose you don't own the battery so no reason to get insurance money on it. What happens to the lease though? Surely you don't keep paying for it?
Yes RCI finance demanded we keep paying the battery lease but refused to allow us to take the battery pack home. In the end we complained to the financial ombudsman and as if by magic RCI finance stopped taking payments and even repaid the money taken since the accident
@@stevenbarrett7648 Thanks for this information. I was at a dealer just browsing a bit and they said I really needed to lease the battery if I decided to buy one, if would give me peace of mind. Guess it will give me a headache if I lease and something happens to it.
Ingeborg Svensson not really, we bought another Zoe recently, Q90 but decided to lease the battery again ensuring we have proper cover this time. I like the idea of Renault replacing the battery if it fails plus the unlimited recovery package we get in Great Britain especially as it’s used by all the family
@@stevenbarrett7648 Thanks for commenting Steven. I went to the dealer yeaterday just to have a look at the car from the inside, I will shedule a test drive later. They gave me some brochures and it clearly states, albeit in smaller print, that you need a € 9.65 per month additional insurance for the battery. So that totals to around € 80 a month for leasing the battery. If I bought a 6 - 8 yo Zoe I would consider a lease but not for one that is 2 - 3 yo, that would financially make no sense in my case, unless the car was known for it's many battery defects. Which as far as I know, is not the case. What also struck me at the dealer's is that the guy claimed they had never had one with a faulty battery in their garage since Zoe first came on the market. But later on in the conversation he tried to convince me to get a lease one 'because you never know'. I did not say anything about it at the time but these statements seem to contradict eachother. My daily rides are in the rural area of the Netherlands so very flat surface, the nearest thing we have to a hill is a speed bump here and there. It's an area with many small villages (30 km/h) and 60 kmh road that connect them. I do not drive every day and when I do it will be mostly 60 km/h or less and a total of 45 km distance per day or less. I know a guy with a flat bed truck and he would pick me up any place for 25 euros or so, he did it when I had trouble with my Prius. He works for the Dutch version of the AA but he has no problem making some money on the side. I understand your reasoning perfectly and if I did a lot of motorway or dual carriage or if I needed a service for picking me up then leasing might be worth considering. But as I see it now I'd better buy. Since I would slow charge at home (3 kW) almost all of the time the R110 seems to be the best choice for me and there are currently some available here for 10k euros or even less for an I version. For 8k or less you only have the lease versions. What I wonder is: how can I determin (approximate) the state of the battery by taking a short test drive? If you have any suggestions please let me know, I would really appreciate it.
excellent video.. and I agree with everything you said.... I drive a Leaf and Work for BMW, the BMW just isnt practical enough. small boot and not enough seats.
Your strong opinion on the Zoe battery lease lacks financial justification. My Zoe was purchased used, for 5.6K, and a battery lease of 48/mo. Most used EV’s have low miles due to range anxiety, and after a 3yr lease the car was in excellent shape. Why sink cash in depreciating goods, when you can drive the non “I” Zoe with the assurance of 75% SOH, and or failure coverage. Having melted the relay in my Twizy, twice, you appreciate the value of free battery pack replacement with rental car provided and breakdown recovery. So much less upfront cash, and your most expensive wearable being covered for 600/year... well, I have seen much worse deals. Depreciation of these EV’s should have also been covered. When you end up selling your EV - the main question a buyer will have is the SOH of your battery. If it is low, the inherent cost of replacing it will be pricey - not something to worry about with the lease option. Just some thoughts.
@shadowsworldz State of Health. Basically maybe simplifying a bit too much, with the lease, when the battery reaches 75% of it's capacity (say the full charge only drives you 100 miles instead of 150 it did as new) you get a new battery. This means you can buy a 4 year old Zoe but the battery is still as good as new for you. That's why looking at 6 month old EVs for comparison you miss out on the upside of the lease
@shadowsworldz it is an upside. I guess the more direct comparison is to imagine the petrol/gas tank in your internal combustion car shrinks a bit everytime you fill up. Or during extreme weather. . But I'm no specialist and I don't know how quickly and how the use/charge cycles will affect it. Does it reach 75% SOH after a year? 2 years? I guess there's someone that crunched those numbers out there. Find out before you decide. Plus all the support mentioned on the original comment. You run out of battery and they send someone to "rescue" you. Warranty etc.. It's not just a silly extra expense. You can get a lot more car for less upfront money but depending on your use it might be more expensive year on year then a combustion engine car. But it might be it would take 20 years to make up the difference... I live in the UK so no idea about availability anywhere else.
As someone who has never driven, let alone owned an electric car, it seems to me the best thing to do is to wait for a few years until the average range is 500 miles, the charging stations are ubiquitous, and the cars look a little less geeky. Then wade in and buy a second hand one for £5K, with a brand new battery that will last five years; that is my idea of a bargain! :)
I paid £17k for my brand new I-Zoe 40kw why would I pay £16.5k for a second hand leaf. Ok had to wait 6 months for delivery but brand new with 4 years warranty worth the wait. Otherwise excellent vid as usual.
As a Zoe owner I think you are right about 2nd hand 'I' model not being good value for money. A brand new one is though. I also would never buy a battery lease car.
Great videos 👍 Agree about the Zoe leases, they’re a deal breaker for me. I even offered to buy the ease out at the dealership in Warrington for a 3.5k premium but Renault just won’t allow them to play nice at the moment. Very switched on salesman, which was refreshing, but his hands were tied.
Well done for trying to compare such a difficult choice. Perhaps the Kia soul EV beats all three from a pre owned perspective. But if you want to sample cheap EV ownership is hard to ignore prices of the Zoe from £4.5k you have to get your head around the battery lease but from £49 per month that covers breakdown including running out of charge which will never happen! And battery replacement at 75% it's still a good deal. If you can run a £5k EV for five or six years with no road tax, cheap insurance and annual services of around £60 what does it owe you? The latest EV cars are a great step forward but if value for money is the deal breaker I think it has to be a Zoe or leaf on battery lease. But if I was starting from scratch now, the Kia soul on Lease from drive electric has to be the best new EV deal ever offered.
Kia Soul EV leases might be good in the UK right now but I must say we hated the handling. It was like driving a fridge on wheels: no feedback whatsoever. We had test-driven LEAF, i3, Volt, and Soul EV but when we hopped into the e-Golf we couldn't believe the joy to be had in driving the thing vs Soul EV (and Volt, with that weird US-car non-linear steering thing going on, like an old Taurus). LEAF was so-so; i3 drove like a BMW (nice: fast and precise) but was priced accordingly ($286/mo w/$5k down vs $159/mo with $3k for the e-Golf). We're keeping the e-Golf at end-of-lease, having given up on getting an affordable Tesla (and I lined up on 3/31/16 to hand over the deposit).
You are spot on John. I know EVM dislikes battery lease but I have one and did the math on a second hand Zoe. OK I don't do much annual mileage but I worked out that over 5 years I would pay less (with battery lease) than had I purchased a Zoe with battery included. I've seen low-mileage good condition Zoe's, 3 years old, for sale at £6,000 and less. £600 per year battery lease makes it a highly affordable second hand EV and great for young first time buyers and those looking for a bargain.
Tricky issue is value. I was castigates by my brother for buying an A2 14 years ago. As a car geek he gave a whole list of reasons why it was too expensive to be ‘good value’. I proved him wrong. It had done over 200,000 miles at a real average of over 50 mpg at real road speeds not ‘old man’ speeds. No rust, still starts first time on original clutch and battery. I know it is not an EV but do not discard well built cars because they are expensive, ever. They do pay for themselves. It will be time to replace it within a couple of years so the replacement needs to be an EV but none of the three chosen above can match the A2 for built quality and boot capacity so I am still waiting for the EV equivalent of the A2, but a bit bigger :-)
I do not own an EV yet so I really appreciate this video. Here in the Netherlands there seems to be a 50/50 split between the Zoe with lease and buy battery. If I'm going to buy one I don't want to lease it either, I want to own it. Since I don't have a family I will be driving it alone about 99% of the time. Since the Leaf's range is a bit too short for my liking I would go for the Zoe. But my 2006 Prius just passed our version of the MOT with flying colours, so I will make my final decision next year.Thanks!
The battery lease solves a problem you may not have considered. The batteries in these cars usually have a warranty of 8 years, by the time they are available second hand people will be buying them with about 4 years left. If the battery fails after that then you are left with a car that will cost more to fix than the price of the parts. Buying it at 4 years old is fine but you will want to sell it again, try selling an EV with an 8 year old out of warranty battery. The 3rd party warranties are as usual not worth the paper they are written on, they will decline for 'wear and tear' on the battery claims. The amount you will buy a car for is influenced by what you will be able to sell it for when the time comes, if buyers don't have confidence in an 8 year old lithium battery (and I don't) then depreciation to an unacceptable level is likely. I was just looking at buying a 4 year old i3, which I can afford to do, but I can't afford to have zero trade in value when I go to sell it. Leasing removes that issue because the battery is not a maintenance cost of the car owner. You get charged more for it over time, same as you would if you took out a £8000 loan to buy the battery outright and pay it back incrementally.
How come you did not mention battery life? The Nissan Leaf has the worst degrading batteries in the EV market since they do not have any battery thermal management system. In USA the Leaf is a scrap car because a lot of them barely have any range left.
A feature that I think is great with the Leaf is the pre-heating through a mobile phone app. Is that any good (I'm aware of the fact that range is reduced, unless it's being charged at the time) and are there equivalent systems on the bmw and Renault?
I understand your aversion for de leasesystem, but it's quite succesful in Belgium e.g;, where in the meanwhile you can also buy the battery in the B-buy formule for 8.500€. If in my case I chose for the B-rent for 7.500KM, which is 69€ per month, I would pay only abt. 5.000€ in 6 years. It has also become possible too to buy in the battery after some years. The lease includes also a number of warranties; e.g. they pick you up in case you run out of "'juice" before reaching the next charging point. So it remains a matter of "choice".and user profile.
Worth mentioning that yhe Leaf does not have any battery temperature management which will make a big impact on the battery after many years and the value of the car will dropp more than the other 2.
My biggest draw back with the evs r looks. Im a sucker 4 nice looking cars and when u see loads of nice new style cars, but none r in ev form 😭😭😭😭😭 I have got a nice electric mountain bike though. Maybe ill try build a sports car shell and stick it over me. 😉👍🤣🤣🤣🤣
Just wanted to say thanks for this video (and the others on the channel) i've been a subscriber for some time now and been interested in EV's for a while and drive an i3 at work. Finally bit the bullet today - partly due to my wife having watched this video comparison, as well as others and being convinced on the leaf. We've just reserved a 30KWh 2016 leaf at our local Nissan dealer. Give me a shout if you're ever down south, and i'll get you a coffee! Andy
A colleague bought a Leaf Tekna (battery owned) from a main dealer over a year ago for £8500, the used value has gone up so much that she actually stands to make a profit on it if she chose to sell it.
I would never buy another Leaf or any Nissan product. I am in America and own 2012 Leaf with a 24 KWH battery pack. At 6 years old and with 50K miles the battery is degraded to 61% SOH. I have contacted several Nissan dealerships and Nissan itself and have found a replacement battery will cost me $9600. The price they announced 2 years ago was quietly raised. The labor costs are rediculous. And you have to buy a $1500 adapter kit that has never been mentioned. So much for a great value.
l0k I agree. They have been dishonest, and have led the public to believe replacing the battery would be cheap, or even free under certain circumstances.
I have a question for you. I live in St John's Newfoundland Canada. Where I live used Nissan leafs are rare but there is one used for sale and I don't know to purchase it or not since I would have to finance it. It's a 2011 leaf Sv with 90,000 kms on it and has 10/12 bars left on it's capacity for $13,000 cdn. It's well maintained and looks like new. What do you think or do you have any advice for me?
Personally I wouldn’t given it’s age and likely battery state and range left. It’s an early one too. I’ve no idea how much a newer one would be though.
I'd been wrestling with a decision for a bit. Problem is it's the only used leaf in the province. Can't buy anything newer and the 2018 isn't even here. The Nissan Dealership isn't a authorized leaf dealer here lol.
You started the video by pointing out how different people have different priorities and so it was impossible to say that one was 'the best'. Surely this applies to value as well. You are getting a lot for your money with the BMW, all the tech that makes it so light and efficient, the superior driving experience (and I'm not talking about the acceleration, I would happily take 50 or 60 horse power less for a bit more range), and, most of all, proper battery management. The Zoe and the BMW start head and shoulders above the leaf for that.
When I bought a fluence the handling and steering was shall I say, " not what I was used to", however after four years it feels great I guess you adapt to a car as I now love the way it handles and steers in real world driving, obeying all the speed limits and camera's etc when can you enjoy the handling of a car anymore by pushing it even close too it's limits? I have never heard a bad word about the kia soul apart from some peeps not liking the looks. In the flesh it's quite an imposing machine in the right colour it has real presence! But dam I still love the flu too much yet to swop for anything else.
Thanks for this as it really helps . Do you think when buying the leaf it's best to go for the 6.6 charger or just 3.3 charger? Does the extra cost be justified? Cheers
I prefer the i3 only one problem passengers can't get out unless you get out first I think.,because the driver's seat belts attached to the door., when the seat belts fastened you can not let the back people out I think that's the case
You say the list price of the BMW i3 is high with a new car but I just checked and the lease or pcp price is within £10 (mainly because BMW interest is 2% Nissan is 5.9%). When I buy one I will lease or PCP because I worry about the technology getting old and the cars value plummeting, so the i3 would be a good choice? Also the rumours are there is a 200mile plus i3 out by the end of this year.
Scott Wills Compared to the Leaf in this video when new it is, I assume you’re comparing it to the new leaf that’s a lot more expensive. Assuming it fits your usage and size needs the i3 is a great choice. Factor in deposit and mileage as well of course.
Value is definitely the hardest to assess because the supply is low, demand is high, and there's so much significant change on the way that could up-end any prediction of future value in the next 12 months (in particular the arrival of several 60kWh vehicles). The Rex on the i3 is a £3.5k option new, for what that's worth - but it's interesting that all the second-hand 94Ah cars have the Rex. At least I couldn't find any second-hand pure electric i3's for sale.
All in all good video. Perhaps as Leaf driver an slightly biased but all comments save the Battery Lease I totally agree with. BUT You come at the pricing all wrong I think. Firstly if you comparing used I suggest really do used and take a 2 year old of each of them rather than “nearly new”. Secondly most of time many people buy on finance with/without a lump sum. It’s often the bottom line monthly cost that makes price not list price. In those terms although I agree the Battery Lease on ZOE is bit bizarre it is no reason to discount it. And seeing as you have noted vast majority of used ZOEs ARE Battery Lease then when come to sell then anyone looking for a ZOE will have factored that into their buying decision. So to compare in your video all should have done is find a 6mnth ZOE and compare total lease Battery plus typical financing and deposit over say 4 years. And then do same for each of others and look at monthly payments for each. As each will lose similar value you said, that would be a constant. If they extended loan over longer the monthly payments would be less but again that would be a constant. The battery lease makes calculations a pain but far from impossible and to simply discount it for this seems to rule out a good EV. Although in end I would have still chosen a Leaf myself, as I did! Keep up videos! Checkout and comment on my channel, ongoing feedback helpful to.
If you want to borrow a Zoe 40kWh for a day I will happily do a range test with you in the i3 to see which car goes further on a full charge. We can follow each other on a planned route or something. I expect the 33kWh i3 will go further than the 40kWh Zoe. I'm sick of hearing people claim Zoe has the best range when it can barely do 130 miles on a charge in the real world. I've had 140 miles out of the i3 on the motorway. Happy to put this to bed as nobody seems to have actually done a proper range comparison and whilst everyone agrees NEDC is BS it's the number Zoe owners seems to hide behind in conversations even though I know it's not capable of the claims made as I had one as a company car for 6 months and it was diabolical
I3 is totally misunderstood in this comparison as usual. You missed the point as usual. I3 is a bargain when compared to other carbon fibre cars. Value is subjective and has to be put into perspective. What else is carbon fibre here? Nothing. What has the best quality battery? I3. What is 2 year servicing? I3. What is the most premium inside and out? I3. Which has 3 different interiors? I3. Which has the best app? I3. Which can charge at 11Kw AC and 50Kw DC? I3. I3 is the better EV. Which is the only ground up EV? I3. Leaf is a Tiida and Zoe is a Clio. You also ignore that the i3 keeps its cables in the frunk and not thrown In the boot taking up space. I've had all 3 of those cars and am also on my 2nd leaf but the i3 is by far the best car of the three here. Just because leaf and Zoe are cheap doesn't make them better cars. I3 may be more expensive but every component is better, better in car entertainment, adaptive LED lights, reads speed limits on its camera, has the most safety features, most power by far. I3 S has 180bhp and then you have the rex which makes the i3 totally unbeatable coast to coast by anything else. The i3 is also much more efficient than the other two, has the best regen, looks by far the best, is cheapest to own and has the best residuals. It's more expensive since because it's got a more expensive battery 33kwh thermally managed, the battery is also replaceable with larger capacity. I3 is also greener and is produced in a much more sustainable way. Zoe and leaf are the equivalent of my first Electric car, i3 is for someone who wants the next step in product quality and capability.
Mark Perrin Who cares it’s carbon fibre though. I’m looking at this as joe bloggs would, as a car! If the i3 is the best value then why are you on your 2nd Leaf? I’m not denying the i3 is better in some respects but in value terms alone it’s just behind the Leaf. Not everyone can afford one so there’s that and it’s far from a family car so it’s less capable in that respects. Carbon fibre and value have nothing to do with one another.
Electric Vehicle Man I think your missing that it's not even a competitor for leaf and Zoe. I3 owners know it's a step above in every respect. I have leaf, i3 and Tesla roadster sport. Leaf was a no brainer for value but i3 is a different league as a total car. Carbon fibre is an exotic material and is much lighter than steel. I3 will become a collectible BMW in time as it represents a huge innovation test for the brand. As I've said, it's misunderstood by many who seem to think it is just a small electric car which completely missed the point. It's a premium small electric vehicle like the mini and it's not aimed at the bargain bucket crowd. Is a different demographic to leaf and Zoe which are bought on price not quality. I3 offers more for those who appreciate it. Look at the difference of the LED adaptive lights on the i3 compared to the LED bulbs on the leaf, they are night and day In terms of quality. Compare the sound of the Harman Kardon system with the terrible Bose system in the leaf. You pay more and you get a lot more but in a smaller package. i3 represents a vision of the future, leaf and Zoe represent cheap electric cars based on Ice cars. I3 has more in common with a Tesla and ipace in terms of its design. How BMW do it for the price is beyond me, I suspect they loose money on every i3 sold. It's loaded with innovation in its production and materials. The battery is far superior to the one used by Renault and Nissan for starters with a much higher cycle capability. You need to dig deeper with this car as I've told you before.
Electric Vehicle Man just because some can't afford the i3 doesn't make it bad value. Can you name another carbon fibre tub car to compare it with on price? McLaren? Suddenly it seems cheap. How about another 180bhp electric car? How does it stack up on price then? You wouldn't compare a BMW 3 series with a Citroen C5, they aim at different demographics. If someone has 3 children they probably wouldn't look at the i3 for that reason but it is actually quite big in the back for 2 people and the boot is fine considering you keep the cables in the frunk anyway. It also has split seats in the rear and those elastic straps in the boot are really useful. I've said it before and I will say it again, get out in a rex and do 500 miles in it to somewhere there is no charging network. It's a different level of convenience that no other EV can match. Lands end to john o Groats the i3 rex would arrive 5.2 hours before a model X.
Electric Vehicle Man in case you havent realised, EV is a niche. We all already know everything there is to know about the cars we have bought. We're all nerds and if the i3 is carbon fibre then the owners all know that already . Are you thinking the layman is even looking at EV like this? They aren't. I worked for Renault and the Zoe was invisible to customers. We're years away for the layman showing an interest.
You just said above the Leaf is a no brainer for value so what part of the video have I got wrong? I said the i3 was better on interior and fun, what part don't you agree with? As for affordability, it has to be factored in when doing a video for the general public and as I said in the video, nigh on impossible to please everyone with the answer.
I'm starting to look at EV's. I'm still not finding one that meets my needs but it is fascinating to see the progress. Hyundai Kona seems to be pushing the market forward again. Give it just a few years and we'll all have a good deal more choice (providing you can charge at home of course).
I liked the video, even though the perspective isn't directly applicable to my locale. We don't have the Zoe here so I had a choice between the bolt/leaf/i3 (or be stuck in vaporware queue for the mythical $35k Tesla). Tried them and the BMW was just in a different tier in terms of quality. Ended up picking up a new i3 rex and the difference between well-equipped i3 and well-equipped leaf was about $6500 or £5000. Was it worth it? Probably. If it fits your needs and budget allows it, the i3 is definitely the better choice. I personally liked the Bolt more than the Leaf...
What did you think of the regen (B mode) on the Bolt? On the one we test-drove, it made a lot of noise when activated (i.e., decelerating), whereas our e-Golf's regen is _absolutely_ _silent_. Noise has to have a source and it seems to me that this means some kind of friction -- worrisome? Otherwise, we liked the Bolt, though it did drive a bit "floaty-boaty" compared to the German EVs (e-Golf, i3).
That's strange, I didn't notice any outrageous noise. Regen is supposed to have friction, but not to the point you can hear it. Yeah the Bolt was definitely a good car, and if BMW didn't offer a $10,000 discount I would have probably gone for that.
l0k Thanks. That's right, I remember about that $10k off for new i3 now; sweet deal. The used ones are also a bargain right now. Re: Bolt regen: it wasn't so much "loud" as "there" (and maybe felt more than heard?). Our e-Golf has no noise or vibration on regeneration, none, zip, nada. Maybe it's more noticeable on Bolt as the vehicle is much heavier. Still might be worth our looking at Bolt, there are some good deals.
Could be, haven't tested eGolf so I can't say for sure. The $10k discount was active in may, then back in july. I wouldn't be surprised if they offer it again shortly as they try to push the 2018 models out the door with the (supposed) 2019 range increase to 180ish miles. $48k for a i3 is bit much, but $38k and you start thinking "well, that's close to Bolt/leaf money, and it's quite zippy and fun so..." And yes, the Bolt is definitely worth looking into. I have a colleague who commutes about 80 miles each direction and is currently considering getting one.
Used e-Golf? Well you probably can't find one. Ours is a keeper at end-of-lease. More elbow room than i3 (really, we compared), more boot space than i3 (easy to do!), seats 5 (but not three large person in the rear), 124-mile range EPA (ours is the 2016 SE with 84 miles but that's enough for us, = 100 in summer and 74 in winter), solid build, handling is superb, B mode regen is smooth as butter. Not _quite_ as quick off the mark as i3 but pretty entertaining. Right now there are a ton of i3s coming off lease in the US and they are absolute bargains (
xchopp there are just 6 e-Golf on Autotrader now. Start at £18k for one that has done 40,000 miles. (I'd buy the Ioniq on there for £21k that has done just 1000 miles rather than any other EV at the moment.)
Therm O'Stat Yes, they are like gold dust here too. Just discovered this morning that there may be cadmium-in-the-charging-unit recall on all plug-in VWs (h/t Nikki at TEN), trying to find out if this affects my e-golf.
Update: VW has told me that my 2016 e-Golf SE is not affected. I am rather surprised -- don't they all have the same charging unit? We'll have to wait and see if the recall does come into effect for ours later on.
so this is where I think the battery rental could be a good idea because you don't have to worry about your battery anymore also you get unlimited cover so if you run out of charge the AA take me to the nearest charge point forever as many times as you want Renault Zoe
I do 1000 miles a month in my diesel with £30 road tax. It costs £110 a month for fuel, how much would battery lease be for that kind of mileage on a Zoe. I think the government don’t really want us in electric cars. Look how much fuel duty and road tax they would lose.
Zoe Ze40 has only been available for about a year and a half. Hopefully a few more battery owned versions will appear on the used market as people get to the end of their leases/pcps.
Martin Wray The iZoe has been around years though and that was included in the ‘only 3 for sale’ in the UK. If they do a Nissan with the batt lease then this decision may change.
Electric Vehicle Man perhaps it's not my bad after all? Some helpful chap on the rzoc Facebook page is saying that the I versions didn't appear in the UK until 2015.
The current German used car "market" also offers only those 3 cars for people like me who interested in kinda new but used ev's. The Zoe is most offered, the leaf is a bit rare and BMW seems hard to find used. Anyway the BMW for me as family dad makes no sense and is too expensive. The Zoe was too tiny and the battery lease is a no go. Depending to our mileage at one year with 17000 km, the lease would be 79€/month and kills the savings, compared to an actual ice cars fuel cost at the same mileage. At least I am lucky with the Leaf, nevertheless the designer was drunken with too much sake 😉🍸
More relevant criteria for comparison would be. 1) EV specific features 2) Build Quality 3) Desirability 4) Battery Warranty 5) Real world Range capability 6) Battery Quality 7) Unique features 8) NVH 9) Depreciation over 3 years 36k miles 10) App features and remote capability. 11) in car entertainment comparison 12) unique packaging features (frunk, cable storage) 13) Charging Capability and flexibility 14) Safety Features like collision mitigation etc 15) Green credentials for production and build materials. 16) Efficiency 17) Cost of ownership and Service intervals over 3 years 36k miles. 18) Any other USP that sets it apart or makes it special compared to others.
Electric Vehicle Man I know. I've watched all your videos. I'm not having a go lol. I'm offering suggestions. Just feel you need to spend more time with the i3 and ideally the rex. There's more to the car than you will find on a 1 day test. It's like a girl with a great personality that you only see after a few days. Banish those BMW predudices and pump up those tyres as I've said. Find out why so many owners say it's next gen compared to the others at the price point. You need to try the rex, it transforms the capability and shifts your expectations for the price. I did the Scotland 500 and we came across 3 broken chargers in a row, the rex took us up Mountains without any issue and at times I was chasing down a Ferrari on the country lanes with 10% SOC. I couldn't have done that in a leaf or Zoe lol.
Kind&Kegel Roller the original Leaf models have the worst record of any EV with respect to the battery degradation and life - except maybe the original Tesla roadster.
Calvin Grier are you kidding. The battery degradation on original roadster has far exceeded expectations and specifications. Mine is 7 years old and has lost just 9% of its original capacity (still 230 miles). I know most of the roadster owners in the UK and they are equally impressed with their cars. You hardly ever seen one being sold for that reason . It's also bulletproof reliable.
One thing you didn't mention the on board chargers the q version of the zoe has the chameleon charger which can pull 22kw off standard 22kw Street chargers the leaf and bmw can't so for me that alone makes the zoe better than the other two
Have they changed the seats in the Zoe? I tried the -14/-15 model I believe, and found them ok the first 5 min, but then they turned awful.. Bought a Leaf Tekna and can spend hours in those seats, so comfort for me is a no-brainer. Just saw your more recent "Best electric car for..." where you recomend a batterylease-car. Have you changed your mind about it? Here in Norway it really isn't any option, I don't believe they ever did a lease on the Leaf here, and the Zoe/Twizy was only the first years.
Excellent video - thanks - decision made - Leaf. The only question now is whether to go for an older, cheaper 24 kWh (second gen with the better heater etc.) or a 30 kWh Leaf. I'll be commuting 29.8 miles each way i.e. 60 miles a day round trip with no charging options at work and very limited chances to top up on route.
I think that would be a better option and probably better resale value later too - plus a few extra miles range in the event of a road closure. My direct route home is occasionally closed due to snow as it's high and exposed.How are Leaves/Leafs in snow?
@@ElectricVehicleMan 8:10 you say that you need to leave the doors open as it 23° outside. You just needed to switch on the aircon and close the doors to stay cold in a conformable way.. My comment was refering to that.
@@ElectricVehicleMan if you pre-cool the car while filming outside it won't as the fan only needs to run at low speed. We do this in 30+°C. Anyways, best regards.
Logically value for money has nothing to do with copious availability. The i-Zoe is by far the best value, you may have to compromise on colour but 180 miles for 15-16.000 The Leaf can't compete.
Value is irrelevant if you can’t buy one. 3 for sale of any age in the UK when this video was done and only 1 under 3 years old. 1 car in the whole of the UK!
As for the comparison between Zoe and Leaf (unless your comparing the latest Leaf) don't forget you are comparing a 41 kWh battery against a 30 kWh battery and the battery is a major part of the cost. Completely agree with you on battery leasing. It's time has now passed.
Leaf is awful looking and have no battery managemnt only have little bit more space, ZOE is probably the best and i own one and can do long distance with many charging
It’s the new 40kWh Leaf that I was an about. Anyone who has done research would know the Zoe is 41kWh and I was talking about something else. Now jog on and shut up as you’re getting annoying now.
I think the Zoe is uglier than the Leaf and the i3 (which I think is probably the ugliest of the 3). And for taller people like me the Zoe is basically at best a 3 person car, while the Leaf can take 5, so definitely more than a little more space. It all depends of course on what you need and want.
Leaf best value compared to a Zoe? you can get one for under £5k, ok battery lease but that gives it peace of mind when the battery craps out, don't get that with the leaf
Of course it does! That’s the whole point of a battery warranty. Below 75% in the 8 year period, Nissan and any other manufacturer replace the battery.
Zoe doesn't even show the driver the battery percentage remaining when driving. A proper EV enthusiast would discount it from their short list right there.
So of the titel was "best halve EV" then I'd agree with the conclusion. But as it was segmented into categories, you shouldn't have given a conclusion in the first place. People could draw their own conclusion based on their wants and needs which is best for them. For instance, in my case I'm single, have saved up, like zippy driving and hate monthly costs. I wouldn't like to be seen in the old leaf because of the looks and like the small hatchback size more. So the i3 is the one that tops my list.
The Best Value is kinda a little strange in the end result. In the end goal, are you looking for resell after you've used it, or best value for you when buying it? The I3 is best for resell value, hands down. It will hold its value solely for the badge and build quality. You see old BMW's still selling for a few £1000 even when close to 20yrs old. However, for value for money when buying for yourself, the Leaf is the best. As you, there's more car, its comfortable, it's fast enough for everyday traffic. I would also add that, for me and the way I drive, I wouldn't find that much fun in the I3. I prefer a car with a wider wheel base, and a lower body, so you can throw it in the corners. The Zoe would fit that bill for me. However, if you watch my videos, you'll know I don't go on the motorways, and stick to country roads. Of further note, something I've said before in other videos comments, I find the Leaf a family car, which I don't have. The Zoe seems a general small hatchback, same as the Clio which its based on. The I3, I don't like the looks, its too much like an old Agila, a small van for ease of access driven by OAP's.....
You can't call the Leaf a great value when it is already established that the battery will degrade faster than any of the other vehicles available. It is not a good value - especially when you consider that 5 people cannot fit comfortably in the back seat that really only holds two full size people.
Electric Vehicle Man Nissan chose to NOT use an active battery temperature management system. If you know about the chemistry of Lithium batteries, you know that they degrade when exposed to high and low temperatures - particularly when charging or discharging. www.greencarreports.com/news/1116020_nissan-leaf-30-kwh-battery-decline-3-times-that-of-earlier-electric-cars-study
And if you read that report it’s comparing the Leaf30 to the Leaf24, NOT other EVs. Nissan have also released a BMS update to address this. As the Leaf30 comes with an 8 year battery warranty, who cares!
Electric Vehicle Man - how can a BMS address active temperature management? Just read about used Leaf owners on User Forums - getting significantly less range than expected.
The BMS is what tells you the battery is degraded, it is doing this incorrectly. The battery is fine but the BMS doesn’t think it is so the update restores this.
The leaf looks like s--, the bmw is ridiculous , 4 seater , back doors Weird looks , bicycle wheels , ps not an ev , the battery only one crap . Try charging anywhere away from a motorway with a leaf , you’ll be there all day . Ps you do realise a high percentage of people lease the whole car so surely that’s even more stupid .
Takes me a few hours for a full charge 'away from a mway' and tbh who needs a fast charge when 'away from a mway'? Leasing can be cheaper for a full car, especially as a company write off.
I think the i3 is the best value, because BMW is releasing a bigger battery (43kwh I think) and as always, they let you change the battery SIZE, not just the battery to a new one, and if someone had the 60 ah battery i3, that is a huge thing for them, which means they won't have to change cars, just for more range.
Battery upgrades have not been available in the UK at all - BMW UK do not offer or support battery upgrades from the 60 Ah to 94 Ah. I'd say it's unlikely they'll offer it to the 120Ah - not when enough people will happily buy new.
Yes, what have the french ever done for us? I mean, apart from the brie. And the saucisson. And the Burgundy. And inexpensive, highly practical, comfortable and efficient cars? And beautiful cities? I think art was already mentioned. Yes, what have the french ever done for us?
I bought a Renault Zoe Q90 Z.E. 40 in May 2018, because that's the best for my needs.
Why? It has a 41 kWh Battery and it can charge with 43 kW, not only 22 kW. The Type 2 charger is most available charging stations.
Fast charging isn't needed at home, but when driving big distance.
I can drive round about 300 km with one battery charge and it needs 1 hour to recharge again. My hypermiling was 396 km with one charge.
Also important for me was the price.. Best price has the Renault Zoe.
You can buy the Zoe *without* battery lease, but then you have to buy the battery for 8,000 Euros and it's yours, even if it gets damaged, or loosing capacity. I thought about buying or leasing, but I choose leasing and I choose the biggest option for unlimited mileage.
I drive my girlfriends i3 a lot it’s a fun car to drive. However the doors look cool when you open them but there not practical in real world when trying to get the kids out in supermarkets. Not having the 5th seat is another down side socially. The thin tyres also I find are a little unstable on motorway driving the car feels very wobbly sometimes. The boot space is seriously small also. The car also gets very hot inside when the range extender is running too. But apart from that it does have some great points it is enjoyable nipping about and it leaves boy racers for Dust which I find so entertaining 😂 even super bikes struggle to keep up till it reaches 60 mph I ride motorcycles too and this car gives you a simlair feel of how fast you can overtake etc. If I could change anything about the i3 it would be to have wider tyres a bigger boot a extra seat and a more upto date dash screen as bmw seem to lack touch screen like the Tesla screen. Navigating a screen with a wheel and button is so old school like something from the days of when people had Nokia phones. It’s like a car made by Apple with a Nokia text style. They need to inject cash into there firmware and get touch screens and better voice recognition oh and better speakers as there very tinny
Buying i3=not with REX!
Two year old video and still packed with useful information - Thank you
People who are looking for a used car, almost never want one only 6 months old (where the depreciation is minimal). They are usually looking for best value, and that comes in at around 3 to 5 years old. Or if they are on a tight budget, they are looking at cars 10 years old and not at all in the price range of any electric or hybrid car. You can buy an immaculate low mileage (under 25K miles) one owner first series 2015-2016 BMW i3-REX from about £14K. That may have a low electric range, but you can keep topping up with petrol for an extra 60 miles each time and with no worries about where or how to fill up.
Great comparison video! Can you speak any toward the maintenance costs short & long term? Which I know electric cars, in general, have way less maintenance. I've always heard that with BMW gasoline model cars have been described as a money pit due to repair costs. But maybe it's different for the electric car version. Any ideas how the Leaf and BMW compare on repair costs? Thanks!
I bought a 2nd hand leaf just over a year ago and really ended up with it for much the same reasons. The Zoe was unobtainable (and the battery lease made no sense financially) and Renault did a pretty much textbook approach in 'how not to manage to sell any car to someone wanting to by a car'. The Ionic (the other car I was interested in) I couldn't even get a test drive in for 6 months (according to my nearest dealer). No regrets with the Leaf although with a 24 kWh battery, whilst it's fine for my day to day driving, I'm less comfortable going any distance - North Wales is lacking in charging infrastructure at this time! PCP runs until 2020 by which time I'm expecting a lot more choice in the 2nd hand market :)
I am looking to replace my Zoe and would agree with you on the Renault dealers. They don't have a clue about Zoes. A quick scan of autotrader will show up Zoe 'i's that are battery lease(???), cars just sold as the Zoe with no information about battery size, motor fitted or lease/'i' and even a ZE40 that is advertised as a 22kWh model. They really are trying to stop that one finding a buyer.
What are you driving now?
@@Zimpaz 2018 model Leaf
@@SiEffen how’s that doing? I’m thinking of replacing our runabout diesel with a 2015 leaf but wondering if I should stretch to a 30kwh
@@Zimpaz I'd definitely recommend the 30 over the 24 (I had one for 18 months) just for the extra bit of range. In the summer the 30kWh would manage about 130 miles range versus 90 for the 24kWh. In the winter the 30kWh managed about 100 miles versus 65 for the 24kWh.
No you want I use my Zoe on a daily basis and it is fit for purpose. The lease bit I hated to until the battery had an issue and the work was for around 8k it was taken in by Renault they gave me a brand new car for the duration of the repairing time and it was free repair honestly the lease is £49 a month and now you do the mats if you have an issue you will be covered for free. Nothing against the leaf and I like the I3 but the price is to dear for me.
Lease is a viable option for a second-hand purchase as the Zoe is then much cheaper as you're only buying half the package while Renault carry the depreciation of the other half of the investment - if you can ever call a car at this level an investment LOL.
If you have a Zoe with leased battery annual depreciation after year one is really quite a slow affair since the value of your asset is have that of a comparible Leaf. Add to that the £49/month battery lease and most drivers are quids in
Thinking about getting the i3 and this video really helped. No kids here, just the 2 of us so no need for the bigger car.
I've just purchased a used leaf. I wanted a Zoe because I liked the way it drove and it fits in my garage better. But my two bosses, my wife and daughter, sat in the back of the Zoe on the test drive and they both hated it. Said they moved all over the place when cornering and it was very bumpy in the back. So we went for a test drive in the leaf and they both loved the ride.
I personally like the look of the Zoe, as you do, but my wife likes the quirky looks of the leaf. I'm not that keen.
As you said, the i3 is too expensive. I go for comfort over sportiness, so never tried the i3.
The Zoe wins hands down for range though. We have the 24kwh leaf and after a month, still have not plucked up the courage to go far. I just don't have the confidence in the charging network.
The leaf is a great all rounder for quality and ride, and the acceleration is more than adequate.
Ellis Toms Plenty of videos about long journeys in the channel!
Electric Vehicle Man
Yeh, I know. Seen most of them but when you've got a battery at 82%SOH, and the nearest charger is about 35 miles away a according to zap, just can't get the courage up to diva test drive there yet. I will have to get out at some point though. 😓
Love your comment about your wife and daughter being your bosses. I have the 24 kWh leaf and like it but can't drive long distance in it because of charging infrastructure. The U.K. Has a lot better set up at least the ecotricity network. Near Gloucester were @rualleafowner Ian Sampson lives. He now has a Zoe and loves it but has a boatloads of videos on traveling in his leaf on the network all the way to como and exeter
Toby Jackson thanks for your comment. I know you are right. I hope that once I have done it, I will venture further afield. My wife wants us to go for a trip to Hever Castle, and can make it there ok, but it appears they only have one or two destination points available which will almost certainly be occupied. This is a problem with such a short range car. Just can't fill up at enough places. There is a ecotricity fast charger on the way in one direction, which i have just set up an account , so it would be cutting it fine for the journey home. I am hoping I can just sign up as I go for all the other fast chargers. Watching others setting up accounts on the fly says to me that I worry too much, pethaps. But I have taken the first big step into electric car ownership, and really enjoying my every day usage. Brilliant.
Ive driven 700km in one day in my 2012 leaf - one bar lost.
And i had to charge 6times on the trip. Mostly motorway at 90km/h. And the longest stop was 20min. Usually just 10-15min on the others.
And even tho supercharging is «expensive» i saved 1500nok or 170£ driving my electric car than using my brothers Passat. I planned to do so because of the huge distance..
Thanks for these videos EV man really helped with our decision to go EV!
I just bought my BMW I3 2014 Rex. I agree that the leaf if a better buy. But I'll never be sad driving my BMW. Love this car.
How i3 maintenance wise how many miles you have these update will help many?
You say the i3's paint job makes it look like a storm trooper but when I look at it I see a killer whale.
You need to look at this version of the i3: www.google.com/search?q=bmw+i3s+white&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&source=android-browser&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjOhrj26YHuAhXxzIUKHUs8Cv4Q_AUoAXoECA4QAQ&biw=412&bih=750&dpr=2.63#imgrc=GINCp8R1vh4hTM
When our Zoe was written off the underwriters refused to pay out on the battery as they said with it being a separate lease it needed a separate insurance contract so beware of this pitfall
Steven Barrett That's very interesting. I suppose you don't own the battery so no reason to get insurance money on it. What happens to the lease though? Surely you don't keep paying for it?
Yes RCI finance demanded we keep paying the battery lease but refused to allow us to take the battery pack home. In the end we complained to the financial ombudsman and as if by magic RCI finance stopped taking payments and even repaid the money taken since the accident
@@stevenbarrett7648 Thanks for this information. I was at a dealer just browsing a bit and they said I really needed to lease the battery if I decided to buy one, if would give me peace of mind. Guess it will give me a headache if I lease and something happens to it.
Ingeborg Svensson not really, we bought another Zoe recently, Q90 but decided to lease the battery again ensuring we have proper cover this time. I like the idea of Renault replacing the battery if it fails plus the unlimited recovery package we get in Great Britain especially as it’s used by all the family
@@stevenbarrett7648 Thanks for commenting Steven. I went to the dealer yeaterday just to have a look at the car from the inside, I will shedule a test drive later. They gave me some brochures and it clearly states, albeit in smaller print, that you need a € 9.65 per month additional insurance for the battery. So that totals to around € 80 a month for leasing the battery. If I bought a 6 - 8 yo Zoe I would consider a lease but not for one that is 2 - 3 yo, that would financially make no sense in my case, unless the car was known for it's many battery defects. Which as far as I know, is not the case. What also struck me at the dealer's is that the guy claimed they had never had one with a faulty battery in their garage since Zoe first came on the market. But later on in the conversation he tried to convince me to get a lease one 'because you never know'. I did not say anything about it at the time but these statements seem to contradict eachother. My daily rides are in the rural area of the Netherlands so very flat surface, the nearest thing we have to a hill is a speed bump here and there. It's an area with many small villages (30 km/h) and 60 kmh road that connect them. I do not drive every day and when I do it will be mostly 60 km/h or less and a total of 45 km distance per day or less. I know a guy with a flat bed truck and he would pick me up any place for 25 euros or so, he did it when I had trouble with my Prius. He works for the Dutch version of the AA but he has no problem making some money on the side.
I understand your reasoning perfectly and if I did a lot of motorway or dual carriage or if I needed a service for picking me up then leasing might be worth considering. But as I see it now I'd better buy. Since I would slow charge at home (3 kW) almost all of the time the R110 seems to be the best choice for me and there are currently some available here for 10k euros or even less for an I version. For 8k or less you only have the lease versions. What I wonder is: how can I determin (approximate) the state of the battery by taking a short test drive? If you have any suggestions please let me know, I would really appreciate it.
Clearly Renault is the nicest and best car. And its most popular car so far. 😎
It’s what I plan to get as a first car only 22kwh though
excellent video.. and I agree with everything you said.... I drive a Leaf and Work for BMW, the BMW just isnt practical enough. small boot and not enough seats.
Du bist so am lügen junge
Your strong opinion on the Zoe battery lease lacks financial justification. My Zoe was purchased used, for 5.6K, and a battery lease of 48/mo. Most used EV’s have low miles due to range anxiety, and after a 3yr lease the car was in excellent shape. Why sink cash in depreciating goods, when you can drive the non “I” Zoe with the assurance of 75% SOH, and or failure coverage. Having melted the relay in my Twizy, twice, you appreciate the value of free battery pack replacement with rental car provided and breakdown recovery. So much less upfront cash, and your most expensive wearable being covered for 600/year... well, I have seen much worse deals. Depreciation of these EV’s should have also been covered. When you end up selling your EV - the main question a buyer will have is the SOH of your battery. If it is low, the inherent cost of replacing it will be pricey - not something to worry about with the lease option. Just some thoughts.
@shadowsworldz State of Health. Basically maybe simplifying a bit too much, with the lease, when the battery reaches 75% of it's capacity (say the full charge only drives you 100 miles instead of 150 it did as new) you get a new battery.
This means you can buy a 4 year old Zoe but the battery is still as good as new for you. That's why looking at 6 month old EVs for comparison you miss out on the upside of the lease
@shadowsworldz it is an upside. I guess the more direct comparison is to imagine the petrol/gas tank in your internal combustion car shrinks a bit everytime you fill up. Or during extreme weather. .
But I'm no specialist and I don't know how quickly and how the use/charge cycles will affect it. Does it reach 75% SOH after a year? 2 years? I guess there's someone that crunched those numbers out there. Find out before you decide.
Plus all the support mentioned on the original comment. You run out of battery and they send someone to "rescue" you. Warranty etc..
It's not just a silly extra expense. You can get a lot more car for less upfront money but depending on your use it might be more expensive year on year then a combustion engine car. But it might be it would take 20 years to make up the difference...
I live in the UK so no idea about availability anywhere else.
As someone who has never driven, let alone owned an electric car, it seems to me the best thing to do is to wait for a few years until the average range is 500 miles, the charging stations are ubiquitous, and the cars look a little less geeky. Then wade in and buy a second hand one for £5K, with a brand new battery that will last five years; that is my idea of a bargain! :)
Great video , Can I ask What happened to your first leaf?
Love your videos mate! Great one! Thnx
I want to remind that BMW I3 won 2 design award. Renault Zoe it's just a pleasant small car. The Nissan Leaf is a just a shame!
Nissan Leaf is just the largest. 100 miles of range, and enough room for a 5 person family trip. What more could you want?
@@wojciechmuras553 Did you drive it? Probably not. Horrible!!!
@@1968matrix I own one... I've been driving it daily for over a year now.
@@wojciechmuras553 You should drive a base Model 3. We are talking about the same value, but the difference is unbelievable.
@@1968matrix I'm currently preparing to switch to a Model S. However, I paid 13,000€ for my Leaf. Go find a Model 3 for that price...
I paid £17k for my brand new I-Zoe 40kw why would I pay £16.5k for a second hand leaf. Ok had to wait 6 months for delivery but brand new with 4 years warranty worth the wait. Otherwise excellent vid as usual.
Dean Hall The Zoe is no longer available new though in this guise or that pricing.
As a Zoe owner I think you are right about 2nd hand 'I' model not being good value for money. A brand new one is though. I also would never buy a battery lease car.
6 months wait and all you get at the end is a Zoe. What a let down.
You would pay for more cargo space, rear passenger space, better overall build and finish quality.
Electric Vehicle Man neither is the leaf.
Great videos 👍 Agree about the Zoe leases, they’re a deal breaker for me. I even offered to buy the ease out at the dealership in Warrington for a 3.5k premium but Renault just won’t allow them to play nice at the moment. Very switched on salesman, which was refreshing, but his hands were tied.
You were right. Style is subjective, and I personally would prefer the styling of the leaf.
i find the leaf 1 is much more stylish than the leaf2
Well done for trying to compare such a difficult choice. Perhaps the Kia soul EV beats all three from a pre owned perspective. But if you want to sample cheap EV ownership is hard to ignore prices of the Zoe from £4.5k you have to get your head around the battery lease but from £49 per month that covers breakdown including running out of charge which will never happen! And battery replacement at 75% it's still a good deal. If you can run a £5k EV for five or six years with no road tax, cheap insurance and annual services of around £60 what does it owe you?
The latest EV cars are a great step forward but if value for money is the deal breaker I think it has to be a Zoe or leaf on battery lease. But if I was starting from scratch now, the Kia soul on Lease from drive electric has to be the best new EV deal ever offered.
Kia Soul EV leases might be good in the UK right now but I must say we hated the handling. It was like driving a fridge on wheels: no feedback whatsoever. We had test-driven LEAF, i3, Volt, and Soul EV but when we hopped into the e-Golf we couldn't believe the joy to be had in driving the thing vs Soul EV (and Volt, with that weird US-car non-linear steering thing going on, like an old Taurus). LEAF was so-so; i3 drove like a BMW (nice: fast and precise) but was priced accordingly ($286/mo w/$5k down vs $159/mo with $3k for the e-Golf). We're keeping the e-Golf at end-of-lease, having given up on getting an affordable Tesla (and I lined up on 3/31/16 to hand over the deposit).
You are spot on John. I know EVM dislikes battery lease but I have one and did the math on a second hand Zoe. OK I don't do much annual mileage but I worked out that over 5 years I would pay less (with battery lease) than had I purchased a Zoe with battery included. I've seen low-mileage good condition Zoe's, 3 years old, for sale at £6,000 and less. £600 per year battery lease makes it a highly affordable second hand EV and great for young first time buyers and those looking for a bargain.
Tricky issue is value. I was castigates by my brother for buying an A2 14 years ago. As a car geek he gave a whole list of reasons why it was too expensive to be ‘good value’. I proved him wrong. It had done over 200,000 miles at a real average of over 50 mpg at real road speeds not ‘old man’ speeds. No rust, still starts first time on original clutch and battery.
I know it is not an EV but do not discard well built cars because they are expensive, ever. They do pay for themselves. It will be time to replace it within a couple of years so the replacement needs to be an EV but none of the three chosen above can match the A2 for built quality and boot capacity so I am still waiting for the EV equivalent of the A2, but a bit bigger :-)
I do not own an EV yet so I really appreciate this video. Here in the Netherlands there seems to be a 50/50 split between the Zoe with lease and buy battery. If I'm going to buy one I don't want to lease it either, I want to own it. Since I don't have a family I will be driving it alone about 99% of the time. Since the Leaf's range is a bit too short for my liking I would go for the Zoe. But my 2006 Prius just passed our version of the MOT with flying colours, so I will make my final decision next year.Thanks!
The battery lease solves a problem you may not have considered. The batteries in these cars usually have a warranty of 8 years, by the time they are available second hand people will be buying them with about 4 years left. If the battery fails after that then you are left with a car that will cost more to fix than the price of the parts. Buying it at 4 years old is fine but you will want to sell it again, try selling an EV with an 8 year old out of warranty battery. The 3rd party warranties are as usual not worth the paper they are written on, they will decline for 'wear and tear' on the battery claims. The amount you will buy a car for is influenced by what you will be able to sell it for when the time comes, if buyers don't have confidence in an 8 year old lithium battery (and I don't) then depreciation to an unacceptable level is likely. I was just looking at buying a 4 year old i3, which I can afford to do, but I can't afford to have zero trade in value when I go to sell it. Leasing removes that issue because the battery is not a maintenance cost of the car owner. You get charged more for it over time, same as you would if you took out a £8000 loan to buy the battery outright and pay it back incrementally.
How come you did not mention battery life? The Nissan Leaf has the worst degrading batteries in the EV market since they do not have any battery thermal management system. In USA the Leaf is a scrap car because a lot of them barely have any range left.
Might want to look at the age of the video.
@@ElectricVehicleMan 5 years ago it was already known.
Between the i3 and the Leaf, I'd go with the Leaf (Renault cars and French cars in general are no longer sold in the US)
A feature that I think is great with the Leaf is the pre-heating through a mobile phone app. Is that any good (I'm aware of the fact that range is reduced, unless it's being charged at the time) and are there equivalent systems on the bmw and Renault?
They all have that.
@@ElectricVehicleMan thanks for clarifying. Are those systems now reliable, having gone through a few version evolutions?
I understand your aversion for de leasesystem, but it's quite succesful in Belgium e.g;, where in the meanwhile you can also buy the battery in the B-buy formule for 8.500€. If in my case I chose for the B-rent for 7.500KM, which is 69€ per month, I would pay only abt. 5.000€ in 6 years. It has also become possible too to buy in the battery after some years. The lease includes also a number of warranties; e.g. they pick you up in case you run out of "'juice" before reaching the next charging point. So it remains a matter of "choice".and user profile.
sinjoor60 that sounds sensible. Unlike Renault here.
Worth mentioning that yhe Leaf does not have any battery temperature management which will make a big impact on the battery after many years and the value of the car will dropp more than the other 2.
My biggest draw back with the evs r looks. Im a sucker 4 nice looking cars and when u see loads of nice new style cars, but none r in ev form 😭😭😭😭😭
I have got a nice electric mountain bike though. Maybe ill try build a sports car shell and stick it over me. 😉👍🤣🤣🤣🤣
Just wanted to say thanks for this video (and the others on the channel) i've been a subscriber for some time now and been interested in EV's for a while and drive an i3 at work. Finally bit the bullet today - partly due to my wife having watched this video comparison, as well as others and being convinced on the leaf. We've just reserved a 30KWh 2016 leaf at our local Nissan dealer. Give me a shout if you're ever down south, and i'll get you a coffee!
Andy
I'm in Clacton this weekend.
Electric Vehicle Man
Shame, I’m South, South - Winchester way!
Had a Leaf for 10 years. Going with the i3 next.
A colleague bought a Leaf Tekna (battery owned) from a main dealer over a year ago for £8500, the used value has gone up so much that she actually stands to make a profit on it if she chose to sell it.
super helpful thank you
I would never buy another Leaf or any Nissan product. I am in America and own 2012 Leaf with a 24 KWH battery pack. At 6 years old and with 50K miles the battery is degraded to 61% SOH. I have contacted several Nissan dealerships and Nissan itself and have found a replacement battery will cost me $9600. The price they announced 2 years ago was quietly raised. The labor costs are rediculous. And you have to buy a $1500 adapter kit that has never been mentioned. So much for a great value.
They don't cover the replacement? I thought the 8year warranty on batteries was universal. That's some bull...
l0k I agree. They have been dishonest, and have led the public to believe replacing the battery would be cheap, or even free under certain circumstances.
I have a question for you. I live in St John's Newfoundland Canada. Where I live used Nissan leafs are rare but there is one used for sale and I don't know to purchase it or not since I would have to finance it. It's a 2011 leaf Sv with 90,000 kms on it and has 10/12 bars left on it's capacity for $13,000 cdn. It's well maintained and looks like new. What do you think or do you have any advice for me?
Personally I wouldn’t given it’s age and likely battery state and range left. It’s an early one too. I’ve no idea how much a newer one would be though.
I'd been wrestling with a decision for a bit. Problem is it's the only used leaf in the province. Can't buy anything newer and the 2018 isn't even here. The Nissan Dealership isn't a authorized leaf dealer here lol.
Richard Hollett It doesn’t sound like a good intro to one tbh. Range is prob down to 55-65 miles in normal weather.
Awesome thanks for the info. I'll definitely pass on the leaf.
@@eng09 After a lot of research I would not buy a leaf under year. 2013 for value and depreciation
I think overall you have made the right choice, if you can get the zoe without lease then for its range i would get it , but by now you probably can .
You started the video by pointing out how different people have different priorities and so it was impossible to say that one was 'the best'. Surely this applies to value as well. You are getting a lot for your money with the BMW, all the tech that makes it so light and efficient, the superior driving experience (and I'm not talking about the acceleration, I would happily take 50 or 60 horse power less for a bit more range), and, most of all, proper battery management. The Zoe and the BMW start head and shoulders above the leaf for that.
When I bought a fluence the handling and steering was shall I say, " not what I was used to", however after four years it feels great I guess you adapt to a car as I now love the way it handles and steers in real world driving, obeying all the speed limits and camera's etc when can you enjoy the handling of a car anymore by pushing it even close too it's limits? I have never heard a bad word about the kia soul apart from some peeps not liking the looks. In the flesh it's quite an imposing machine in the right colour it has real presence! But dam I still love the flu too much yet to swop for anything else.
Thanks for this as it really helps . Do you think when buying the leaf it's best to go for the 6.6 charger or just 3.3 charger? Does the extra cost be justified? Cheers
For me, yes. But I need the extra speed overnight too due to the missus getting home at 3:00am.
I prefer the i3 only one problem passengers can't get out unless you get out first I think.,because the driver's seat belts attached to the door., when the seat belts fastened you can not let the back people out I think that's the case
You say the list price of the BMW i3 is high with a new car but I just checked and the lease or pcp price is within £10 (mainly because BMW interest is 2% Nissan is 5.9%). When I buy one I will lease or PCP because I worry about the technology getting old and the cars value plummeting, so the i3 would be a good choice? Also the rumours are there is a 200mile plus i3 out by the end of this year.
Scott Wills Compared to the Leaf in this video when new it is, I assume you’re comparing it to the new leaf that’s a lot more expensive. Assuming it fits your usage and size needs the i3 is a great choice. Factor in deposit and mileage as well of course.
Value is definitely the hardest to assess because the supply is low, demand is high, and there's so much significant change on the way that could up-end any prediction of future value in the next 12 months (in particular the arrival of several 60kWh vehicles).
The Rex on the i3 is a £3.5k option new, for what that's worth - but it's interesting that all the second-hand 94Ah cars have the Rex. At least I couldn't find any second-hand pure electric i3's for sale.
All in all good video. Perhaps as Leaf driver an slightly biased but all comments save the Battery Lease I totally agree with. BUT You come at the pricing all wrong I think. Firstly if you comparing used I suggest really do used and take a 2 year old of each of them rather than “nearly new”. Secondly most of time many people buy on finance with/without a lump sum. It’s often the bottom line monthly cost that makes price not list price. In those terms although I agree the Battery Lease on ZOE is bit bizarre it is no reason to discount it. And seeing as you have noted vast majority of used ZOEs ARE Battery Lease then when come to sell then anyone looking for a ZOE will have factored that into their buying decision. So to compare in your video all should have done is find a 6mnth ZOE and compare total lease Battery plus typical financing and deposit over say 4 years. And then do same for each of others and look at monthly payments for each. As each will lose similar value you said, that would be a constant. If they extended loan over longer the monthly payments would be less but again that would be a constant. The battery lease makes calculations a pain but far from impossible and to simply discount it for this seems to rule out a good EV. Although in end I would have still chosen a Leaf myself, as I did! Keep up videos! Checkout and comment on my channel, ongoing feedback helpful to.
If you want to borrow a Zoe 40kWh for a day I will happily do a range test with you in the i3 to see which car goes further on a full charge. We can follow each other on a planned route or something. I expect the 33kWh i3 will go further than the 40kWh Zoe. I'm sick of hearing people claim Zoe has the best range when it can barely do 130 miles on a charge in the real world. I've had 140 miles out of the i3 on the motorway. Happy to put this to bed as nobody seems to have actually done a proper range comparison and whilst everyone agrees NEDC is BS it's the number Zoe owners seems to hide behind in conversations even though I know it's not capable of the claims made as I had one as a company car for 6 months and it was diabolical
I3 is totally misunderstood in this comparison as usual. You missed the point as usual. I3 is a bargain when compared to other carbon fibre cars. Value is subjective and has to be put into perspective. What else is carbon fibre here? Nothing. What has the best quality battery? I3. What is 2 year servicing? I3. What is the most premium inside and out? I3. Which has 3 different interiors? I3. Which has the best app? I3. Which can charge at 11Kw AC and 50Kw DC? I3. I3 is the better EV. Which is the only ground up EV? I3. Leaf is a Tiida and Zoe is a Clio. You also ignore that the i3 keeps its cables in the frunk and not thrown In the boot taking up space. I've had all 3 of those cars and am also on my 2nd leaf but the i3 is by far the best car of the three here. Just because leaf and Zoe are cheap doesn't make them better cars. I3 may be more expensive but every component is better, better in car entertainment, adaptive LED lights, reads speed limits on its camera, has the most safety features, most power by far. I3 S has 180bhp and then you have the rex which makes the i3 totally unbeatable coast to coast by anything else. The i3 is also much more efficient than the other two, has the best regen, looks by far the best, is cheapest to own and has the best residuals. It's more expensive since because it's got a more expensive battery 33kwh thermally managed, the battery is also replaceable with larger capacity. I3 is also greener and is produced in a much more sustainable way. Zoe and leaf are the equivalent of my first Electric car, i3 is for someone who wants the next step in product quality and capability.
Mark Perrin Who cares it’s carbon fibre though. I’m looking at this as joe bloggs would, as a car! If the i3 is the best value then why are you on your 2nd Leaf? I’m not denying the i3 is better in some respects but in value terms alone it’s just behind the Leaf. Not everyone can afford one so there’s that and it’s far from a family car so it’s less capable in that respects. Carbon fibre and value have nothing to do with one another.
Electric Vehicle Man I think your missing that it's not even a competitor for leaf and Zoe. I3 owners know it's a step above in every respect. I have leaf, i3 and Tesla roadster sport. Leaf was a no brainer for value but i3 is a different league as a total car. Carbon fibre is an exotic material and is much lighter than steel. I3 will become a collectible BMW in time as it represents a huge innovation test for the brand. As I've said, it's misunderstood by many who seem to think it is just a small electric car which completely missed the point. It's a premium small electric vehicle like the mini and it's not aimed at the bargain bucket crowd. Is a different demographic to leaf and Zoe which are bought on price not quality. I3 offers more for those who appreciate it. Look at the difference of the LED adaptive lights on the i3 compared to the LED bulbs on the leaf, they are night and day In terms of quality. Compare the sound of the Harman Kardon system with the terrible Bose system in the leaf. You pay more and you get a lot more but in a smaller package. i3 represents a vision of the future, leaf and Zoe represent cheap electric cars based on Ice cars. I3 has more in common with a Tesla and ipace in terms of its design. How BMW do it for the price is beyond me, I suspect they loose money on every i3 sold. It's loaded with innovation in its production and materials. The battery is far superior to the one used by Renault and Nissan for starters with a much higher cycle capability. You need to dig deeper with this car as I've told you before.
Electric Vehicle Man just because some can't afford the i3 doesn't make it bad value. Can you name another carbon fibre tub car to compare it with on price? McLaren? Suddenly it seems cheap.
How about another 180bhp electric car? How does it stack up on price then? You wouldn't compare a BMW 3 series with a Citroen C5, they aim at different demographics. If someone has 3 children they probably wouldn't look at the i3 for that reason but it is actually quite big in the back for 2 people and the boot is fine considering you keep the cables in the frunk anyway. It also has split seats in the rear and those elastic straps in the boot are really useful. I've said it before and I will say it again, get out in a rex and do 500 miles in it to somewhere there is no charging network. It's a different level of convenience that no other EV can match. Lands end to john o Groats the i3 rex would arrive 5.2 hours before a model X.
Electric Vehicle Man in case you havent realised, EV is a niche. We all already know everything there is to know about the cars we have bought. We're all nerds and if the i3 is carbon fibre then the owners all know that already . Are you thinking the layman is even looking at EV like this? They aren't. I worked for Renault and the Zoe was invisible to customers. We're years away for the layman showing an interest.
You just said above the Leaf is a no brainer for value so what part of the video have I got wrong? I said the i3 was better on interior and fun, what part don't you agree with? As for affordability, it has to be factored in when doing a video for the general public and as I said in the video, nigh on impossible to please everyone with the answer.
Agree got a leaf and love it my son is now after buying one and he hasn’t passed his test yet lol
I'm starting to look at EV's. I'm still not finding one that meets my needs but it is fascinating to see the progress. Hyundai Kona seems to be pushing the market forward again. Give it just a few years and we'll all have a good deal more choice (providing you can charge at home of course).
I'm hoping one day, the Leaf will come to Australia. There are now a few public charging points but almost no cars to use them.
I liked the video, even though the perspective isn't directly applicable to my locale. We don't have the Zoe here so I had a choice between the bolt/leaf/i3 (or be stuck in vaporware queue for the mythical $35k Tesla). Tried them and the BMW was just in a different tier in terms of quality. Ended up picking up a new i3 rex and the difference between well-equipped i3 and well-equipped leaf was about $6500 or £5000. Was it worth it? Probably. If it fits your needs and budget allows it, the i3 is definitely the better choice. I personally liked the Bolt more than the Leaf...
What did you think of the regen (B mode) on the Bolt? On the one we test-drove, it made a lot of noise when activated (i.e., decelerating), whereas our e-Golf's regen is _absolutely_ _silent_. Noise has to have a source and it seems to me that this means some kind of friction -- worrisome? Otherwise, we liked the Bolt, though it did drive a bit "floaty-boaty" compared to the German EVs (e-Golf, i3).
That's strange, I didn't notice any outrageous noise. Regen is supposed to have friction, but not to the point you can hear it. Yeah the Bolt was definitely a good car, and if BMW didn't offer a $10,000 discount I would have probably gone for that.
l0k Thanks. That's right, I remember about that $10k off for new i3 now; sweet deal. The used ones are also a bargain right now. Re: Bolt regen: it wasn't so much "loud" as "there" (and maybe felt more than heard?). Our e-Golf has no noise or vibration on regeneration, none, zip, nada. Maybe it's more noticeable on Bolt as the vehicle is much heavier. Still might be worth our looking at Bolt, there are some good deals.
Could be, haven't tested eGolf so I can't say for sure. The $10k discount was active in may, then back in july. I wouldn't be surprised if they offer it again shortly as they try to push the 2018 models out the door with the (supposed) 2019 range increase to 180ish miles. $48k for a i3 is bit much, but $38k and you start thinking "well, that's close to Bolt/leaf money, and it's quite zippy and fun so..."
And yes, the Bolt is definitely worth looking into. I have a colleague who commutes about 80 miles each direction and is currently considering getting one.
Good analysis.
Used e-Golf? Well you probably can't find one. Ours is a keeper at end-of-lease. More elbow room than i3 (really, we compared), more boot space than i3 (easy to do!), seats 5 (but not three large person in the rear), 124-mile range EPA (ours is the 2016 SE with 84 miles but that's enough for us, = 100 in summer and 74 in winter), solid build, handling is superb, B mode regen is smooth as butter. Not _quite_ as quick off the mark as i3 but pretty entertaining. Right now there are a ton of i3s coming off lease in the US and they are absolute bargains (
xchopp there are just 6 e-Golf on Autotrader now. Start at £18k for one that has done 40,000 miles. (I'd buy the Ioniq on there for £21k that has done just 1000 miles rather than any other EV at the moment.)
Therm O'Stat Yes, they are like gold dust here too. Just discovered this morning that there may be cadmium-in-the-charging-unit recall on all plug-in VWs (h/t Nikki at TEN), trying to find out if this affects my e-golf.
Update: VW has told me that my 2016 e-Golf SE is not affected. I am rather surprised -- don't they all have the same charging unit? We'll have to wait and see if the recall does come into effect for ours later on.
Excellent video, many thanks, and 1st to comment YAYYYYY
What about families with 5 kids env should be here too even though its very limited range wise. Cheers
It might be a better ev than the leaf, even though it is based on the leaf.
Find me somewhere that rents them. There aren’t any.
Electric Vehicle Man ironically the ENV200 has a better battery than the leaf 40kWh
Electric Vehicle Man rarer than hens teeth ;)!
There is zero safety in an ENV200 for families. Commercial vehicles aren't tested the same as cars for safety.
so this is where I think the battery rental could be a good idea because you don't have to worry about your battery anymore
also you get unlimited cover so if you run out of charge the AA take me to the nearest charge point forever as many times as you want Renault Zoe
All recovery companies do that. Given the warranty on the batteries you’ve paid way more than a replacement would cost over that period.
@4:11 The Zoe is ugly as fuck and the Leaf looks really cool in comparision. :)
I do 1000 miles a month in my diesel with £30 road tax. It costs £110 a month for fuel, how much would battery lease be for that kind of mileage on a Zoe. I think the government don’t really want us in electric cars. Look how much fuel duty and road tax they would lose.
You can buy a Zoe etc without battery lease.
Zoe Ze40 has only been available for about a year and a half. Hopefully a few more battery owned versions will appear on the used market as people get to the end of their leases/pcps.
Martin Wray The iZoe has been around years though and that was included in the ‘only 3 for sale’ in the UK. If they do a Nissan with the batt lease then this decision may change.
Electric Vehicle Man my bad. I was convinced, not sure why, that battery owned Zoes have only been available in the last 2 or 3 years.
Electric Vehicle Man perhaps it's not my bad after all? Some helpful chap on the rzoc Facebook page is saying that the I versions didn't appear in the UK until 2015.
3 years is 'years' to me? Considering the timescale EV's have been around.
Electric Vehicle Man I've got pants way older than 3 years. Thanks for another great video... Hoping you can get hold of a Kona next.
The current German used car "market" also offers only those 3 cars for people like me who interested in kinda new but used ev's.
The Zoe is most offered, the leaf is a bit rare and BMW seems hard to find used.
Anyway the BMW for me as family dad makes no sense and is too expensive.
The Zoe was too tiny and the battery lease is a no go. Depending to our mileage at one year with 17000 km, the lease would be 79€/month and kills the savings, compared to an actual ice cars fuel cost at the same mileage.
At least I am lucky with the Leaf, nevertheless the designer was drunken with too much sake 😉🍸
EVM: there are only 3 i Zoe’s on auto trader...
Me: goes and looks on auto trader.
The first one that comes up is an i Zoe
Haha you looked on autotrader two years after he did and you seem surprised to not have got the same results.
There's also the opportunity cost of having that £8k tied up for x years. Returns on investing it instead.
More relevant criteria for comparison would be.
1) EV specific features
2) Build Quality
3) Desirability
4) Battery Warranty
5) Real world Range capability
6) Battery Quality
7) Unique features
8) NVH
9) Depreciation over 3 years 36k miles
10) App features and remote capability.
11) in car entertainment comparison
12) unique packaging features (frunk, cable storage)
13) Charging Capability and flexibility
14) Safety Features like collision mitigation etc
15) Green credentials for production and build materials.
16) Efficiency
17) Cost of ownership and Service intervals over 3 years 36k miles.
18) Any other USP that sets it apart or makes it special compared to others.
I had the cars for a day and do everything myself. This isn’t top gear with a film crew.
Electric Vehicle Man I know. I've watched all your videos. I'm not having a go lol. I'm offering suggestions. Just feel you need to spend more time with the i3 and ideally the rex. There's more to the car than you will find on a 1 day test. It's like a girl with a great personality that you only see after a few days. Banish those BMW predudices and pump up those tyres as I've said. Find out why so many owners say it's next gen compared to the others at the price point. You need to try the rex, it transforms the capability and shifts your expectations for the price. I did the Scotland 500 and we came across 3 broken chargers in a row, the rex took us up Mountains without any issue and at times I was chasing down a Ferrari on the country lanes with 10% SOC. I couldn't have done that in a leaf or Zoe lol.
Kind&Kegel Roller the original Leaf models have the worst record of any EV with respect to the battery degradation and life - except maybe the original Tesla roadster.
Calvin Grier are you kidding. The battery degradation on original roadster has far exceeded expectations and specifications. Mine is 7 years old and has lost just 9% of its original capacity (still 230 miles). I know most of the roadster owners in the UK and they are equally impressed with their cars. You hardly ever seen one being sold for that reason . It's also bulletproof reliable.
Mark Perrin was that the original nickel metal hydride battery? I don't own a roadster, so all I know is from reading about it.
One thing you didn't mention the on board chargers the q version of the zoe has the chameleon charger which can pull 22kw off standard 22kw Street chargers the leaf and bmw can't so for me that alone makes the zoe better than the other two
But it can’t rapid. Which is more useful.
Electric Vehicle Man the q can rapid charge also, its the r version that can't
gazbmw0 I find the Zoe options confusing to grasp.
Q : quick = possible at 43kw
R: Range = only 22kw but lets say 5 to 10% more range max.
The q version is the more reasonable
gazbmw0 BMW i3 can charge at 22kW or 50kW but only when using the right Level 3 charging station. Standard Level 2 is about 32 amps or around 7kW.
Have they changed the seats in the Zoe? I tried the -14/-15 model I believe, and found them ok the first 5 min, but then they turned awful..
Bought a Leaf Tekna and can spend hours in those seats, so comfort for me is a no-brainer.
Just saw your more recent "Best electric car for..." where you recomend a batterylease-car. Have you changed your mind about it? Here in Norway it really isn't any option, I don't believe they ever did a lease on the Leaf here, and the Zoe/Twizy was only the first years.
Excellent video - thanks - decision made - Leaf. The only question now is whether to go for an older, cheaper 24 kWh (second gen with the better heater etc.) or a 30 kWh Leaf. I'll be commuting 29.8 miles each way i.e. 60 miles a day round trip with no charging options at work and very limited chances to top up on route.
5 year warranty on the 24kWh, 8 year on the 30. I'd go for 30.
I think that would be a better option and probably better resale value later too - plus a few extra miles range in the event of a road closure. My direct route home is occasionally closed due to snow as it's high and exposed.How are Leaves/Leafs in snow?
Use Michelin cross climate tyres if you have just one set. Proper winters are a world apart in snow so get snow tyres if it’s an issue.
The 24kw Leaf second hand would be marginal for that distance
Ever heard of aircon? It does exists in cars too...
@@kolrobi eh?
@@ElectricVehicleMan 8:10 you say that you need to leave the doors open as it 23° outside. You just needed to switch on the aircon and close the doors to stay cold in a conformable way.. My comment was refering to that.
@@kolrobi Then that would make a noise on camera.
@@ElectricVehicleMan if you pre-cool the car while filming outside it won't as the fan only needs to run at low speed. We do this in 30+°C. Anyways, best regards.
Logically value for money has nothing to do with copious availability. The i-Zoe is by far the best value, you may have to compromise on colour but 180 miles for 15-16.000 The Leaf can't compete.
Value is irrelevant if you can’t buy one. 3 for sale of any age in the UK when this video was done and only 1 under 3 years old. 1 car in the whole of the UK!
+1 on speak ev and you can buy new for around 17000...I'm a Leaf owner by the way but consider the Zoe to be far better value if size is acceptable.
the leaf is the best looker too
As for the comparison between Zoe and Leaf (unless your comparing the latest Leaf) don't forget you are comparing a 41 kWh battery against a 30 kWh battery and the battery is a major part of the cost. Completely agree with you on battery leasing. It's time has now passed.
Do you have Bolt in UK? BTW, You have so right about Renaults battery leasing thing, its STUBIDT
Mark perrin sounds like a bitter salesman from a BMW dealership.
Leaf is awful looking and have no battery managemnt only have little bit more space, ZOE is probably the best and i own one and can do long distance with many charging
I can. It’s the new 40 that can’t.
it can with the Q version motor, its the R version that is limited to 22kw, you can't even research this properly
It’s the new 40kWh Leaf that I was an about. Anyone who has done research would know the Zoe is 41kWh and I was talking about something else. Now jog on and shut up as you’re getting annoying now.
I was talking to the other guy in this thread!
I think the Zoe is uglier than the Leaf and the i3 (which I think is probably the ugliest of the 3). And for taller people like me the Zoe is basically at best a 3 person car, while the Leaf can take 5, so definitely more than a little more space. It all depends of course on what you need and want.
Leaf best value compared to a Zoe? you can get one for under £5k, ok battery lease but that gives it peace of mind when the battery craps out, don't get that with the leaf
You get an 8 year warranty on the battery so why bother leasing it.
Electric Vehicle Man warranty doesn’t cover degradation, when a leased Zoe goes below 75% Health you get a new battery
Of course it does! That’s the whole point of a battery warranty. Below 75% in the 8 year period, Nissan and any other manufacturer replace the battery.
its 60% on a battery owned Zoe and you don't get renault assist at all, so you will have hire car costs when its being fixed
The garage gives you a courtesy car, not Renault. Just like when you get it serviced.
Zoe doesn't even show the driver the battery percentage remaining when driving. A proper EV enthusiast would discount it from their short list right there.
BMW by a mile
Just my opinion, the leaf and Zoe are very ugly looking. The BMW is much better looking but still just a bit off.
So of the titel was "best halve EV" then I'd agree with the conclusion. But as it was segmented into categories, you shouldn't have given a conclusion in the first place. People could draw their own conclusion based on their wants and needs which is best for them. For instance, in my case I'm single, have saved up, like zippy driving and hate monthly costs. I wouldn't like to be seen in the old leaf because of the looks and like the small hatchback size more. So the i3 is the one that tops my list.
JAMFUTUBE I didn’t give a conclusion?
Electric Vehicle Man 15:00?
Best value car, not best car.
The Best Value is kinda a little strange in the end result. In the end goal, are you looking for resell after you've used it, or best value for you when buying it?
The I3 is best for resell value, hands down. It will hold its value solely for the badge and build quality. You see old BMW's still selling for a few £1000 even when close to 20yrs old.
However, for value for money when buying for yourself, the Leaf is the best. As you, there's more car, its comfortable, it's fast enough for everyday traffic.
I would also add that, for me and the way I drive, I wouldn't find that much fun in the I3. I prefer a car with a wider wheel base, and a lower body, so you can throw it in the corners. The Zoe would fit that bill for me. However, if you watch my videos, you'll know I don't go on the motorways, and stick to country roads.
Of further note, something I've said before in other videos comments, I find the Leaf a family car, which I don't have. The Zoe seems a general small hatchback, same as the Clio which its based on. The I3, I don't like the looks, its too much like an old Agila, a small van for ease of access driven by OAP's.....
You can't call the Leaf a great value when it is already established that the battery will degrade faster than any of the other vehicles available. It is not a good value - especially when you consider that 5 people cannot fit comfortably in the back seat that really only holds two full size people.
Who said the batteries degrade faster in the leaf? It’s also the biggest car here so none can fit 5 properly from long journeys better than the leaf.
Electric Vehicle Man Nissan chose to NOT use an active battery temperature management system. If you know about the chemistry of Lithium batteries, you know that they degrade when exposed to high and low temperatures - particularly when charging or discharging. www.greencarreports.com/news/1116020_nissan-leaf-30-kwh-battery-decline-3-times-that-of-earlier-electric-cars-study
And if you read that report it’s comparing the Leaf30 to the Leaf24, NOT other EVs. Nissan have also released a BMS update to address this. As the Leaf30 comes with an 8 year battery warranty, who cares!
Electric Vehicle Man - how can a BMS address active temperature management? Just read about used Leaf owners on User Forums - getting significantly less range than expected.
The BMS is what tells you the battery is degraded, it is doing this incorrectly. The battery is fine but the BMS doesn’t think it is so the update restores this.
Do the seat fold flat in the Zoe
Very biased review, you went into the video hating the i3 from the start
Look how old this video is fella!
And look at the price of an i3 in relation to the others.
£££££
Renault will eventually offer to sell the battery due to competition
Symlex Brn when will that be?
The leaf looks like s--, the bmw is ridiculous , 4 seater , back doors Weird looks , bicycle wheels , ps not an ev , the battery only one crap . Try charging anywhere away from a motorway with a leaf , you’ll be there all day . Ps you do realise a high percentage of people lease the whole car so surely that’s even more stupid .
Takes me a few hours for a full charge 'away from a mway' and tbh who needs a fast charge when 'away from a mway'? Leasing can be cheaper for a full car, especially as a company write off.
Why are you only looking at 6 moths old??😅 you consider 6 months old as ‘Used’ ?😅😅
The leaf is the best
Anybody got a link for the buy out of Leaf battery rental ?
Contact Nissan. I did do a video about it a year or so ago when it was launched.
Electric Vehicle Man thanks found it. th-cam.com/video/RtSF12ynqlA/w-d-xo.html
Great review. Are you Irish?
BMW I3 rex is in a different class and has no range limitations.....
You do know many were sold without a rex.
@@ElectricVehicleMan about 40%....
I think the i3 is the best value, because BMW is releasing a bigger battery (43kwh I think) and as always, they let you change the battery SIZE, not just the battery to a new one, and if someone had the 60 ah battery i3, that is a huge thing for them, which means they won't have to change cars, just for more range.
Car Maniac That’s not available in this country.
well, its not available anywhere as it will be released in 2019.
Battery upgrades have not been available in the UK at all - BMW UK do not offer or support battery upgrades from the 60 Ah to 94 Ah. I'd say it's unlikely they'll offer it to the 120Ah - not when enough people will happily buy new.
i3 best value LOL, its a £35K car thats got poor range, its just about to be killed off by the Hyundai Kona, which has a 64kwh battery for £29k
MrMoonX well if you consider that you have the very first i3 and you can change the battery that's twice the size, yes it's good value.
Yet the Zoe does sell well: insideevs.com/renault-zoe-uk-quickest-selling-used-car/
Renault make a great profit on the battery lease.
Have a look at www.motors.co.uk and you will find hundreds of electric cars
By the way ugly that's for you mate
Click reply on the post rather than create a new thread genius!
poor camerawork sadly - hard to watch :(
BMW i3 for the win! Forget that ugly bug eyed piece of junk (leaf).
My main requirement is: not french.
If you want something to look at, buy a painting or some other piece of art. Cars are to drive in, not to look at.
Yes, what have the french ever done for us? I mean, apart from the brie. And the saucisson. And the Burgundy. And inexpensive, highly practical, comfortable and efficient cars? And beautiful cities? I think art was already mentioned. Yes, what have the french ever done for us?
France is a beautiful country, but too many French.
Does that answer your questions?