Its not really the studios, they leave it up to the Director, DP or Cinematographer to sit in with colorist or just tell the colorist what they do and don't want. Some guys are not fans of HDR, they are more concerned with their vision getting overlooked by technology. Instead of taking advantage of what the cameras they use are capable of capturing, then enhancing the viewer experience, they are in their feelings.
@@TheCrucialQ No, it really is the studios fault as they are the ones labelling it as HDR and WCG to push UHD sales when it is not one or either of those things. Vincent is not producing these to complain that they didn't do HDR, the is doing it to complain that they are labeled that they do when in fact they don't. It is literally false advertising, something that we should always be upset about, regardless of the product. As I've posted elsewhere: "Artistic intent to do SDR and Rec 709 is fine. Labelling that as HDR and WCG is not."
Obviously a joke but he's not wrong. This has to stop. And Alita is not Native 4K, correct. However pretty much everything turn of the millennium is going to be Native 4K. Film, when converted to Digital, produces beyond 4K in most cases.
@@yoyotanvir No, most movies so far were shot in 2.8k with Alexa, but even worse, they were mastered in 2k. CGI is too expensive in 4k, takes forever to render, so they only work in 2k.
Amir Bright all the movies are sharp enough. It’s all about the peak brightness. An oled can do 800 or so and this is just pathetic for a pro Hollywood editor to produce. What the hell😂
Preach it, Vincent! What gets me is that companies are going to kill 4k if they keep up with this dishonest practice. If the box says HDR, and I'm paying full price for an HDR product, I better an HDR title.
Thanks for breaking things down further! Explains why a lot of 4K "HDR" movies I've bought under fraudulent pretenses, look pretty much identical to the SDR 1080P BlueRay version (or worse, as I at least have good options w/ SDR content to scale the dynamic range subtly & suitably w/ my Panasonic 820 & LG C9). I can't believe that some folks are arguing against your points on this. Are they just trying to be illogically stubborn due to being a contrarian is trendy these days? I guess some folks aren't smart enough to know that they're not very smart... Packaging an SDR movie in an HDR wrapper, does not make it HDR. This would be nearly equivalent to taking a CD quality audio track coded at 44.1Khz & 16 bit depth, doing ZERO up conversion of the bit depth to scale the dynamic range to 24bits, & simply sampling at 192Khz (which does NOTHING for improving resolution or dynamic range), then sticking it on a DVD Audio disc & marketing it as "High Resolution Audio" for a $10 - $15 price premium over the CD, which would be fraudulent. Keep up the awesome work!
I figured this would be a great HDR presentation given the team involved with the movie's development: Robert Rodriquez (the director) and James Cameron/Jon Landau (the producers). It's disappointing to hear that this isn't the case.
A big thank you for posting these recent videos on 4K HDR blurry movies, Sia Sia Ni. It's only with monitors like the Canon DPV3120 that one can analyse a movie of the HDR quality. Most consumers will depend on recommendation by movie reviewers. Buying 4K bluray disks is an expansive hobby. Really appreciate your CSI treatment on the matter. Hope for more reviews of other movies.
@@drstrange141 A bit. I mean, every single UHD I've purchased is mind-blowing regardless, but yeah, it sucks to see the format not quite living up to snuff.
There are great 4K HDR discs out there. You simply have to do some research! Ready Player One, Tomb Raider 2018, The Dark Knight Trilogy, Casino, Scarface, The Fifth Element, Straight Outta Compton, The Shining, Top Gun, Apocalypse Now, MI: Fallout (16:9 IMAX scenes), 2001 Space Odyssey, A Star is Born 2018, Aquaman, Doctor Sleep, Dunkirk, Interstellar, Ghost in the Shell 2018, John Wick Trilogy, Rocketman, Into the Spiderverse, Far From Home, Stand By Me, The Girl in the Spider’s Web, The Matrix Trilogy, Lion King 2019, Toy Story 4, Venom, The Big Lebowski, Downton Abbey, Die Hard 1, Parasite, Wonder Woman, Darkest Hour, Inception, Power Rangers, Life of Pi, Lucy, most Fast & Furious, The Revenant. All of the movies have great 4K HDR transfers. Some have the bright eye candy while others look as good or better than original film prints.
Thanks for doing these tests. Have you tried contacting those involved with these films that are supposedly HDR? I don't know if it'll get a response but maybe tweeting at James Cameron and Robert Rodriguez with the results might be worthwhile.
@MonsieurHiroshima Or maybe he's just working on staying relevant. I don't know. We'll see how the Avatar sequels turn out. God knows the world couldn't do without them. :D
For me personally, hdr was more about the color depth, not necessarily the brightness. Less banding, more colors = better visuals. Not enough brightness is bad, though...
But now, that I took a bit more time and watched the mandalorian again, I now know how important the brightness contrast is. The colors are still important, but brightness even more so. I have a 2018 oled from LG. And it is so awesome!
Keep up the good work bringing this up and maybe eventually it'll get better. It hurts to know my favorite discs aren't the best HDR they could be though.
Im doing a lot of sound remastering for TV, movie mix to ATSC A85, I think that the video HDR world will soon have the same discussion that the sound world had when they introduced loudness units over DB full scale to end the loudness and compression war. For the HDR they need more rules and the industry need to adjust, now its the far west for HDR mastering and it need to change. The metadata part need to reflect the actual content !
Thank you Vincent for all these great, informative video's about HDR. In an expanding world where HDR is becoming a norm in the game and movie world, these analyses are sorely needed. Thanks to channels like NX Gamer, Digital Foundry and yours, we as consumers are well informed on the technical side of these games and movies. Already can't wait for the new generation of TV's! Any idea if there will be more HDR analyses in the gaming space? Keep up the great work and uploads!
good question, but I think It shouldn't be, or not significant at least, I've just noticed the weekend Alita's dim presentation compare to my other DV discs and I have only HDR10 thru my xbox but I have a DV compatible screen.
@@opupfg Xbox from what I've heard supports Dolby Vision. I was under the understanding that of the gaming devices Xbox is the only ones that support it. Am I wrong? Don't have an Xbox nor do I buy bluerays so I wouldn't know.
I would like more words on color handling in future vids! I thought it was great that you briefly touched on the color gamut, as we know HDR does not only pertain to peak brightness.
Pacific Rim is mastered at 4000 nits with a MaxCLL of 2465 nits and MaxFALL of 823 nits. Otherwise, Ready Player One nits are 4000, 725 and 162 respectively.
Vince about to start a revolution!! I’d gladly be a general in your battles Vince.... I like the work you do for us consumers and exposing the frauds in the tech industry that want more money from us but yet don’t deliver on their end
One of the worst HDR mastered 4k movies. All colours are dimmed, I've seen SDR movies that looked 10x better than this Alita. It's such a shame producers don't know $hit when it comes to technology. We need 1000 nits, 2000 nits highlights and so on not 200-300-400 nits. Well done Vincent! Keep it up bro! And don't mind the haters that don't understand the actual facts.
thanks for your thoughtful well positioned and explained analysis of hdr . ultimately hdr response is great, but relies on the media we put in to actually take use of it.
If they released true HDR then what would they sell you in 5 years as a remastered HDR release and what will they market down the line? Bet you they'll have a "trueHDR" standard down the line that finally meets the real standards on current HDR. Just watch.
On my Sony 930, I noticed that the UHD disc appeared more washed out than the Vudu UHD stream. It was most apparent when they were outside the city walls near the lake.
I watched the rest of this. Reference white is not max white. ITU-R BT.2390-8 Section 1.3 states this. From what I'm able to understand, max white in SDR is 1.25X beyond reference white. And yes, the movie is ridiculously dark. I had to scale the linear luminosity up by 4.75X in order to get the levels to what HLG expects.
Pacific Rim is an example of fake HDR, it has ZERO additional highlight details when compared to Blu-ray, but you won't hear it from Vincent Trolleoh, because it goes over 3000 nits.
Thanks for analysis Vincent. Agree with much of what you say, but to be fair regarding stops, shouldn't analysis of HDR be double ended? More specifically, include both shadow detail on the low end as well as specular highlights on the high end? Thirteen stops down from 400 nits would be fairly low at ~ 0.05 nits. But wait, isn't 0.05 near the traditional black level of SDR? If so, perhaps 13 stops lower threshold for HDR, but 15+ stops/ 32,000:1 better as shown in your vid? So in summary, could it be considered "HDR" if it had ~15 stops through much of content? And should there be diff categories of HDR? i.e. "Dark-HDR," "Bright-HDR," and "Full-HDR"? (best displayed in order by OLED, LCD, micro LED lol ;-) Again, great and intriguing analysis, thanks!
I feel like I've been completely miss-sold for the last 5 years. I have a Samsung Q9FN because I wanted to be betting the most out of HDR. Since it appears most HDR titles don't come to even a third of it's capabilities, I don't need to bother at all! Thanks Vincent. When can we get some recommendations with TRUE HDR over 1000nits???
Yeah. This is exactly what I'm wondering. My concern is that studios choosing to release in both DV and HDR10+ is actually a sign of them not doing an HDR master at all. :-(
This is an amazing series that I am loving more and more as it continues. A personal request if ever the chance comes up would be a review of the HDR application in Alien: Covenant 2017. 54 minutes in is a blindingly bright scene that was the first true sense of HDR I saw in a movie and it is always my reference demo scene for friends and family. The contrast between black and white is eyecatching and the brightness certainly looks and feels scorching. Would be very interested to know how that scene measures. Here's hoping someday soon. I just rewatched it again now, and honestly, if this is not demo-worthy HDR I don't know what is!
Sounds like they need to do weighted averaging to grade. Create some buckets/ranges and determine frames that fall into those buckets . Common practice in engineering/science. We do this when looking at latency measurements in computer systems.
I just wanted to be another person who very appreciated what's Vincent is doing. UHD 4K movie is not cheap. Raising the standard on HDR is definitely very important. If consumers bought fewer and fewer UHD 4K movies because they feel that the picture on UHD 4K disks, are no different than 1080p Blu-ray disks. Customer who appreciate buying best quality disks like myself would be the one who suffered.
Totally agree,the 3d version did what it said on the tin,great 3d disc..I tried watching the 4k disc and thought I was just watching the sdr bluray version....fortunately I purchased this movie for a great 3d experience....
I appreciate you doing these videos to call out poor quality HDR titles. I thought this one would have been better. At least it's better than Star Wars, but that's not saying much.
I very much agree that this appears to be mastered oddly (badly) both with the metadata and the inconsistent peak brightness, but 7:54 talking about going from SDR to HDR "If you go from 100nits to 200nits that's 7 stops, if you go to 400 nits that's 8 stops (total dynamic range)" Not if the display is capable of displaying darker blacks than a reference Rec709 display. With better displays you can add range at the low end also. To go from SDR's nominal 6 stops to 13 or 14 stops, the best image will both go darker than 6 stops below 100 nits (1.56nits) and brighter than the upper range of 100 nits. But the big question is "would this be better with higher peak brightness?" For this movie? Maybe. But for Blade Runner 2049, probably not.
I have written a bit of custom, open source tooling to help convert these 4K movies into HLG in order to eliminate the metadata issue completely. The thing is, my tooling tells me that the opening text of this movie wasn't over 200 nits and the measured MaxCLL of the movie was something like 760. VLC told me, when playing back the HEVC stream, that the detected MaxCLL was roughly the same. This leads me to believe that my tooling must be bad, along with VLC. But...they agree with each other. The UPC code on my copy is 0-24543-52017-7-80.
Can you analyze Alien? It looks like true HDR to me because of the lamps on the helmets during the derelict exploration and when the Nostromo accelerates
@@HeavyMetalSonicRM - Your A9G supports HDR10, HLG, Dolby Vision, but not HDR10+. You would need a Samsung or Panasonic TV to see HDR10+ on Alien 4K Blu-ray. No matter, HDR10 on an A9G is marvelous.
@@TomlinsonHolman52583 I'm hoping to upgrade to a player that supports Dolby Vision. I've never seen it before and most people seem to prefer it over HDR10.
Hi! How about HDR-testing The Dark Knight Rises OLED displays? How well they have converted the IMAX 70mm film to digital. In particular, scenes with great contrast details such as the night car chase sequence or the bane vs batman fight. I'm far from an expert, so if this doesn't make sense to test, then I know 🙂
I think you should def do more of these vids about individual titles but consider making them more compact. Try taking a look at the channel spare change. They have a great format that also looks at the overall presentation for movie enthusiasts. I often use them for reference when deciding if I'm going to spend the money on the 4k uhd or just get it digitaly online. Also, the topic of piss poor hdr would have made a great video on its own and helped to being down this video to around 5 mins which would have been ideal. (but not for your ability for mid roll adds 😉)
Is the Dolby Vision version of this movie any better??? Also Panasonic released firmware for a ton of their TV's yesterday, any new firmware features???
Just get it over with already. Initiate a HDR standard, plug your current findings into that standard, set up a website showing which products do and don't meet that standard. Eventually, that standard will start being featured on the cases, like Energy Star on appliances.
I have watched the blu-ray and the 4k uncompressed rip via my Nvidia Shield and I find that the 4k version to be slightly dimmer then the blu Ray version, which I find very strange. I also find the color reproduction on the blu-ray version better then on the 4k version. I don't know if you can check this?
Sorry guys, but I dont agree about some comments here. First: There are improvements in the 4k scenes. Please refer to your owners manual how to enable HDR. Second: This is a post apocalyptic movie. In bright funny sunshine colors the city would look like a summer vacation. The look is the choice of the makers of the movie. Alita is a Manga and the movie is about seeing instead of reading a manga. Printed Manga has a restricted color range and also did this movie . Deal with it.
If this movie and others are in fact not technically HDR, what would they have to do to get this movie and others up to qualifications and what does that entail from a man hours perspective? Thank you
Alita meant to be watched in 3d, 4k disc is waste of money. Apparently they used fusion camera system ( the same camera used to shot avatar, hugo, and other native 3d movies) so picture quality and 3d deep should be great, I have to finally try this disc on my oled E6, and find out if that's true.
I love these videos. I'm slowly putting these titles on another shelf and labeling it "creative intent". I knew something was up when certain movies looked way too dim.
Hdr or not is not a huge concern for me. As long as it improves over the regular Blu-rays I'm good with that. If it looks reference so be it, regardless of peek brightness. But I do agree grading can and should be improved.
Well done! I was suspecting something like as many 4K movies does not look twice as better on 4k Tv as opposed on 1080p TV as for advertised double resolution "double the quality and price with it" combined with HDR which is the main selling point of those "new 4K" technologies. And I am not saying there is not difference, but definitely majority of the 4K movies even watched on 4K TV does not look twice as good as standard Blu-Ray on 1080p TV for sure cost twice and more than standard Blu-ray copy.
It seems that TV makers and studios are still confused on how to handle HDR. I can't blame media streaming services if the Blu-ray version of these movies aren't consistent about it.
They aren't, it's just people like Vincent or average Joes under his videos who don't understand that it's up to filmmakers to decide how their movies look, not some nit whores.
@MonsieurHiroshima THANK YOU! It is beyond me why this particular splinter group of people are calling a direct lie just "intent". Wtf does that even mean? There is no "creative vision" in lying about HDR on your bluray. It's just scummy practice, that's it. We need a standards body for HDR like yesterday, and while we're at it, a standards body to outline native and upscaled content too. Otherwise the consumer will continue to get lied to and we'll continue to get inferior products on a disc format that has only a limited number of years left before it is swallowed by the streaming market.
@MonsieurHiroshima How about shitty TVs with pathetic contrast ratio and horrible black levels that are being sold with HDR logo? Why aren't you after them? Studios ARE paying, it's up to director / DP / colorist how to use available tools. It's really not that hard to understand. If you have good 4K TV (at least LCD with hundreds of dimming zones) and you did some actual comparisons between BDs and UBDs of the same titles than you should know how huge the difference can be even between movies upscaled from 2K and Alita is one of them. It looks outstanding in Dolby Vision on OLED.
@@peterm.4355 Not that hard to understand , yet you don't understand any of it We as the consumer pay double if not more for formats such as HDR and Atmos If they're not delivering on what we're paying for , then they need to be called out on it So what about tvs false advertising? Two wrongs dont make a right. And besides were talking about HDR standards in UHD not TV's. That's a whole separate argument
Can you tell us how the primary red, green, blue and white points work, and if they are supposed to guide (or not) translations from bits to colors and brightness? Thanks!
It seems like what they did is just have some intern apply a normalize filter with max brightness set to 1000 nits, which only appears for one frame. Really sad
One thing I'm wondering about. Does this base tone mapping mastering effect both the HDR and Dolby Vision meta data? Would it be possible the streaming platforms have different gradings? Love this series Vincent, please continue making more.
There is no very big difference with DTM, if DTM is done right, i.e. by BT.2390 spec. Of course HDR10+ is much more complex than Dolby Vision dynamic meta but other functional of Dolby Vision (that is Full, 4:4:4 4000 nits layer restoration, or IPTPQc2 colorspace) make Dolby Vision superiour. It is complex as fuck.
When HDR first came out, my initial concern was that we will start seeing worsening SDR content as all of it will be mastered for HDR first and then possibly just tone-mapped for SDR container. Now I realize my concerns were misplaced. The studios decided to take the opposite but equally lazy route.
@John Hooper 4k Dolby Vision 120 hz? Only one cinema, TCL cinema. Only one film, Gemeni)) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grauman%27s_Chinese_Theatre 2k 120 hz dolby vision in any of 187 cinemas all over the world. No russia, alas.
@John Hooper yes, I was wrong, TCL showed 4k 120 Hz but without HDR. Sorry, but 2k 120 hz were in HDR, with Dolby Vision. Here www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1570452934
@John Hooper but that 3d 2k 120 hz is Dolby Vision i.e. is HDR. But yeah "Only theaters you will really see "HDR" in are the Dolby Vision enabled theaters but those still don't hit the contrast or brightness of a good FPD at home."
Put the HD disk in first to see what it looked like on my dads new samsung 4k qled tv followed by the 4k disk and neither of us could see any noticeable difference. wtf.
Good on you for tearing apart the marketing rubbish these studios are trying to push on people. You should do a top 10 worst/beat films with HDR
Its not really the studios, they leave it up to the Director, DP or Cinematographer to sit in with colorist or just tell the colorist what they do and don't want.
Some guys are not fans of HDR, they are more concerned with their vision getting overlooked by technology. Instead of taking advantage of what the cameras they use are capable of capturing, then enhancing the viewer experience, they are in their feelings.
@@TheCrucialQ I mean this was written/produced by James Cameron. The dude loves technology
Quincy Sloan I’m starting to wonder if people are enjoying the movies or their displays with some measuring tools. This is starting to get ridiculous!
@@TheCrucialQ No, it really is the studios fault as they are the ones labelling it as HDR and WCG to push UHD sales when it is not one or either of those things.
Vincent is not producing these to complain that they didn't do HDR, the is doing it to complain that they are labeled that they do when in fact they don't. It is literally false advertising, something that we should always be upset about, regardless of the product.
As I've posted elsewhere: "Artistic intent to do SDR and Rec 709 is fine. Labelling that as HDR and WCG is not."
Curtis B
On the other hand my Panasonic player have HDR tools that only work if the movie is encoded as HDR.
Wonder if these movies are even in 4k, maybe your should become the Digital Foundry of movies and do some pixel count on movies.
I think most movies aren't filmed in 4k right?
@@yoyotanvir Right.
Obviously a joke but he's not wrong. This has to stop. And Alita is not Native 4K, correct.
However pretty much everything turn of the millennium is going to be Native 4K. Film, when converted to Digital, produces beyond 4K in most cases.
@@yoyotanvir No, most movies so far were shot in 2.8k with Alexa, but even worse, they were mastered in 2k. CGI is too expensive in 4k, takes forever to render, so they only work in 2k.
Amir Bright all the movies are sharp enough. It’s all about the peak brightness. An oled can do 800 or so and this is just pathetic for a pro Hollywood editor to produce. What the hell😂
Pls do a list of true HDR movies
He did start a playlist
th-cam.com/play/PLThH100Q6rBBmeqzGZ2rCZasDJx0BX2H_.html
so far :
1. Mulan
2. Mad Max
3. The Rise of Skywalker
4. The Greatest Showman
List is here. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15pPvBMCjJogKxt4jau4UI_yp7sxOVPIccob6fRe85_A/edit?usp=sharing
@@borispantovic706 no true HDR releases since may 2018?
@@HBLW1975 i am not sure.
Vincent Teoh is fully committed to his brave battle against luminance skullduggery. He will not stand down!
Preach it, Vincent! What gets me is that companies are going to kill 4k if they keep up with this dishonest practice. If the box says HDR, and I'm paying full price for an HDR product, I better an HDR title.
Thanks for breaking things down further! Explains why a lot of 4K "HDR" movies I've bought under fraudulent pretenses, look pretty much identical to the SDR 1080P BlueRay version (or worse, as I at least have good options w/ SDR content to scale the dynamic range subtly & suitably w/ my Panasonic 820 & LG C9). I can't believe that some folks are arguing against your points on this. Are they just trying to be illogically stubborn due to being a contrarian is trendy these days? I guess some folks aren't smart enough to know that they're not very smart...
Packaging an SDR movie in an HDR wrapper, does not make it HDR. This would be nearly equivalent to taking a CD quality audio track coded at 44.1Khz & 16 bit depth, doing ZERO up conversion of the bit depth to scale the dynamic range to 24bits, & simply sampling at 192Khz (which does NOTHING for improving resolution or dynamic range), then sticking it on a DVD Audio disc & marketing it as "High Resolution Audio" for a $10 - $15 price premium over the CD, which would be fraudulent. Keep up the awesome work!
It would be fraudulent, and yet I bet it's been done.
It got worse for instance MQA audio "compresses" encrypts then expands if you pay to remove the fold.. of a "higher resolution".
Awesome! Thank you Vincent! Really licking the deep dive into the specs of these 4K movies.
He said "licking"😂😂😂🤓
Huntgar 4Life @ yep slip of the tongue
I figured this would be a great HDR presentation given the team involved with the movie's development: Robert Rodriquez (the director) and James Cameron/Jon Landau (the producers). It's disappointing to hear that this isn't the case.
It looks amazing in Dolby Vision. How about trusting your own eyes (and your good TV, if you have one) instead of TH-cam nit whores?
Buy the Blu Ray, it looks fantastic.
What is fantastic is that they put hdr10+ AND dolby vision. And turns out HDR10+ is in priority. Hahaha
Peter sounds like his daddy funded this movie or something lol
@@demonreturns4336 lmao!
You're doing a great job. More 'actual 4K' disc recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work.
You should compile a list with the best HDR in movies. Thanks for calling these frauds out.
He did start a playlist
th-cam.com/play/PLThH100Q6rBBmeqzGZ2rCZasDJx0BX2H_.html
@@chris24hdezyeah I've seen the list, I kinda meant a quick look with a couple stats, for people that can't watch all the vids.
I’m sure that as he does more of these reviews the list will grow. This is only the 5th movie he has measured/reviewed
@@adamsloan309 yup
@waylon lewin 👏
A big thank you for posting these recent videos on 4K HDR blurry
movies, Sia Sia Ni. It's only with monitors like the Canon DPV3120 that one can analyse a movie of the HDR quality. Most consumers will depend on recommendation by movie reviewers. Buying 4K bluray disks is an expansive hobby. Really appreciate your CSI treatment on the matter. Hope for more reviews of other movies.
I like this series of videos because you are bringing out details that I don't think other reviewers are picking out. Keep up the good work.
It's just insane how much they charge for these 4K-Blurays - without actually putting in the effort to make them the best possible experience.
I love how this guy single handedly got me to buy into a new 4K HDR OLED and now is tearing up my dreams
It hurts, doesn't it?
@@drstrange141 A bit. I mean, every single UHD I've purchased is mind-blowing regardless, but yeah, it sucks to see the format not quite living up to snuff.
There are great 4K HDR discs out there. You simply have to do some research!
Ready Player One, Tomb Raider 2018, The Dark Knight Trilogy, Casino, Scarface, The Fifth Element, Straight Outta Compton, The Shining, Top Gun, Apocalypse Now, MI: Fallout (16:9 IMAX scenes), 2001 Space Odyssey, A Star is Born 2018, Aquaman, Doctor Sleep, Dunkirk, Interstellar, Ghost in the Shell 2018, John Wick Trilogy, Rocketman, Into the Spiderverse, Far From Home, Stand By Me, The Girl in the Spider’s Web, The Matrix Trilogy, Lion King 2019, Toy Story 4, Venom, The Big Lebowski, Downton Abbey, Die Hard 1, Parasite, Wonder Woman, Darkest Hour, Inception, Power Rangers, Life of Pi, Lucy, most Fast & Furious, The Revenant.
All of the movies have great 4K HDR transfers. Some have the bright eye candy while others look as good or better than original film prints.
@@lecorsaire2283 I know. I'm just having fun. I have many of these titles already :)
gay
Thanks for doing these tests. Have you tried contacting those involved with these films that are supposedly HDR? I don't know if it'll get a response but maybe tweeting at James Cameron and Robert Rodriguez with the results might be worthwhile.
James Cameron doesn't give a damn. He is a piece of shit that will promote anything to make some buck.
It depends on whether or not either of them in during home grades of their films.
@@NikolaBg35 He wrote this movie though
@@AltimaNEO He gave up on this movie and passed it to others to make more money.
@MonsieurHiroshima Or maybe he's just working on staying relevant. I don't know. We'll see how the Avatar sequels turn out. God knows the world couldn't do without them. :D
Congratulations on this and all your other movie videos. You are direct, clear, objective and, why not say it, a great professional and very prepared
Thank you Vincent, for the detailed explanation on the SDR in HDR container.
I love that Christopher Nolan prefers to shoot in film.
4K conversion looks amazing.
I feel that your heart is in the right place here Vincent. The standard definitely has areas to improve on.
Thank you, its videos like this that can help protect consumers.
For me personally, hdr was more about the color depth, not necessarily the brightness. Less banding, more colors = better visuals. Not enough brightness is bad, though...
But now, that I took a bit more time and watched the mandalorian again, I now know how important the brightness contrast is. The colors are still important, but brightness even more so. I have a 2018 oled from LG. And it is so awesome!
Keep up the good work bringing this up and maybe eventually it'll get better. It hurts to know my favorite discs aren't the best HDR they could be though.
Im doing a lot of sound remastering for TV, movie mix to ATSC A85, I think that the video HDR world will soon have the same discussion that the sound world had when they introduced loudness units over DB full scale to end the loudness and compression war. For the HDR they need more rules and the industry need to adjust, now its the far west for HDR mastering and it need to change. The metadata part need to reflect the actual content !
Thanks for doing these videos! Its interesting how different films are graded.
Thank you Vincent for all these great, informative video's about HDR. In an expanding world where HDR is becoming a norm in the game and movie world, these analyses are sorely needed. Thanks to channels like NX Gamer, Digital Foundry and yours, we as consumers are well informed on the technical side of these games and movies.
Already can't wait for the new generation of TV's! Any idea if there will be more HDR analyses in the gaming space? Keep up the great work and uploads!
I recommend the 3D Bluray edition of this movie. Watched it on the Sony 75ZD9, 3D is really good.
Keep up the great work Vincent - its appreciated!
just curious - you were mentioning HDR10 the whole time - what about the disc's Dolby Vision? Is there any improvement when using Dolby Vision?
good question, but I think It shouldn't be, or not significant at least, I've just noticed the weekend Alita's dim presentation compare to my other DV discs and I have only HDR10 thru my xbox but I have a DV compatible screen.
@@opupfg Xbox from what I've heard supports Dolby Vision. I was under the understanding that of the gaming devices Xbox is the only ones that support it. Am I wrong? Don't have an Xbox nor do I buy bluerays so I wouldn't know.
@@Skylancer727 it does not support playing dolby vision in films. Series X will support it though. Btw, film also has HDR10+))
@@Skylancer727 netfix stream only at the moment. no other console supports it.
@@opupfg you sure blu-ray doesn't support it? That seems odd they would have it for just Netflix and not blu-ray.
I would like more words on color handling in future vids! I thought it was great that you briefly touched on the color gamut, as we know HDR does not only pertain to peak brightness.
Vincent kicking down with some knowledge!! Keep up the good work.
Thank you Vincent for this great analysis !
I thought this movie looked great on my OLED. Shows how much I know, LOL! Please do Ready Player One and Pacific Rim next!
You’re not the only one. It looked great on my OLED as well.🤔
Both of those movies are obviously on the high nit, peak brightness side.
Pacific Rim is mastered at 4000 nits with a MaxCLL of 2465 nits and MaxFALL of 823 nits. Otherwise, Ready Player One nits are 4000, 725 and 162 respectively.
So you thought it looked good but now you don’t think so because Vincent told you so? Lol
@@corporalhicks86 No I still think it looks great, I'm just questioning my perception of HDR highlights 😊 The Atmos soundtrack was killer too!
Honest reviewer on TH-cam, the best . Please list 4K HDR best list
Great video as always, keep fighting the good fight!
Vince about to start a revolution!!
I’d gladly be a general in your battles Vince.... I like the work you do for us consumers and exposing the frauds in the tech industry that want more money from us but yet don’t deliver on their end
One of the worst HDR mastered 4k movies.
All colours are dimmed, I've seen SDR movies that looked 10x better than this Alita.
It's such a shame producers don't know $hit when it comes to technology. We need 1000 nits, 2000 nits highlights and so on not 200-300-400 nits.
Well done Vincent! Keep it up bro! And don't mind the haters that don't understand the actual facts.
Love the film... but this is upsetting ugh. I hope your work is going to shed true light on these “fake” releases. Thank you for the work!
thanks for your thoughtful well positioned and explained analysis of hdr . ultimately hdr response is great, but relies on the media we put in to actually take use of it.
If they released true HDR then what would they sell you in 5 years as a remastered HDR release and what will they market down the line? Bet you they'll have a "trueHDR" standard down the line that finally meets the real standards on current HDR. Just watch.
this is the best channel ever. thanks for your work
4 years has passed, things hasn't changed.
On my Sony 930, I noticed that the UHD disc appeared more washed out than the Vudu UHD stream. It was most apparent when they were outside the city walls near the lake.
I watched the rest of this. Reference white is not max white. ITU-R BT.2390-8 Section 1.3 states this. From what I'm able to understand, max white in SDR is 1.25X beyond reference white.
And yes, the movie is ridiculously dark. I had to scale the linear luminosity up by 4.75X in order to get the levels to what HLG expects.
I think this should be in your hdr video analysis playlist 🙂
Do a list of the best REAL HDR movie out there.
We need a database that shows all real and fake HDR so we know which ones to buy and which ones not to buy.
He did start one.
th-cam.com/play/PLThH100Q6rBBmeqzGZ2rCZasDJx0BX2H_.html
Busting the HDR myth one movie at a time... Pacific Rim next!
I thought that had good HDR
@@aashishsingh2001 It does/should, I just want him to verify and NOT dash my personal observations.
Pacific Rim is an example of fake HDR, it has ZERO additional highlight details when compared to Blu-ray, but you won't hear it from Vincent Trolleoh, because it goes over 3000 nits.
@@peterm.4355 you make absolutely no sense. On this reply or any other.
@@killroytm Which part you didn't understand?
Thanks for analysis Vincent. Agree with much of what you say, but to be fair regarding stops, shouldn't analysis of HDR be double ended? More specifically, include both shadow detail on the low end as well as specular highlights on the high end? Thirteen stops down from 400 nits would be fairly low at ~ 0.05 nits. But wait, isn't 0.05 near the traditional black level of SDR? If so, perhaps 13 stops lower threshold for HDR, but 15+ stops/ 32,000:1 better as shown in your vid?
So in summary, could it be considered "HDR" if it had ~15 stops through much of content?
And should there be diff categories of HDR? i.e. "Dark-HDR," "Bright-HDR," and "Full-HDR"? (best displayed in order by OLED, LCD, micro LED lol ;-)
Again, great and intriguing analysis, thanks!
Is there a medal we can give this guy?
If not, can we invent one?
Alita is a great movie no matter the technical numbers
Just curious if it's above SD but below HDR what is it ? [is there such a thing as MD?
It looks better on the left display - right one is very dark, what are those diplays?
I feel like I've been completely miss-sold for the last 5 years. I have a Samsung Q9FN because I wanted to be betting the most out of HDR. Since it appears most HDR titles don't come to even a third of it's capabilities, I don't need to bother at all!
Thanks Vincent. When can we get some recommendations with TRUE HDR over 1000nits???
Great videos. Whether or not someone agrees about the details, it's still valuable data and nice to see. Thanks 👍
But what about the ones that change like hdr10+ or Dolby vision? Does this apply to those aswell?
Yeah. This is exactly what I'm wondering. My concern is that studios choosing to release in both DV and HDR10+ is actually a sign of them not doing an HDR master at all. :-(
Hdr10+ and dv cannot really change the colors and highligjts that much, I am sorry))
This is an amazing series that I am loving more and more as it continues.
A personal request if ever the chance comes up would be a review of the HDR application in Alien: Covenant 2017. 54 minutes in is a blindingly bright scene that was the first true sense of HDR I saw in a movie and it is always my reference demo scene for friends and family. The contrast between black and white is eyecatching and the brightness certainly looks and feels scorching.
Would be very interested to know how that scene measures. Here's hoping someday soon.
I just rewatched it again now, and honestly, if this is not demo-worthy HDR I don't know what is!
Sounds like they need to do weighted averaging to grade. Create some buckets/ranges and determine frames that fall into those buckets . Common practice in engineering/science. We do this when looking at latency measurements in computer systems.
Great one Vincent. Super interesting
I just wanted to be another person who very appreciated what's Vincent is doing. UHD 4K movie is not cheap. Raising the standard on HDR is definitely very important. If consumers bought fewer and fewer UHD 4K movies because they feel that the picture on UHD 4K disks, are no different than 1080p Blu-ray disks. Customer who appreciate buying best quality disks like myself would be the one who suffered.
are we all being conned on 4k discs ? what is your best ever hdr movie ?
Does Ready Player One and Moana have good HDR ?
Totally agree,the 3d version did what it said on the tin,great 3d disc..I tried watching the 4k disc and thought I was just watching the sdr bluray version....fortunately I purchased this movie for a great 3d experience....
I appreciate you doing these videos to call out poor quality HDR titles. I thought this one would have been better. At least it's better than Star Wars, but that's not saying much.
Don’t let the haters get you down Vincent. Those who can think rationally are your true audience.
This is the rare Fox disc that has Dolby Vision support. How does that compare?
I dont k ow if its the movie, or my tv. The 4k hdr version of this film looks way dark on my tv
I very much agree that this appears to be mastered oddly (badly) both with the metadata and the inconsistent peak brightness, but 7:54 talking about going from SDR to HDR "If you go from 100nits to 200nits that's 7 stops, if you go to 400 nits that's 8 stops (total dynamic range)" Not if the display is capable of displaying darker blacks than a reference Rec709 display. With better displays you can add range at the low end also. To go from SDR's nominal 6 stops to 13 or 14 stops, the best image will both go darker than 6 stops below 100 nits (1.56nits) and brighter than the upper range of 100 nits.
But the big question is "would this be better with higher peak brightness?" For this movie? Maybe. But for Blade Runner 2049, probably not.
I have written a bit of custom, open source tooling to help convert these 4K movies into HLG in order to eliminate the metadata issue completely. The thing is, my tooling tells me that the opening text of this movie wasn't over 200 nits and the measured MaxCLL of the movie was something like 760. VLC told me, when playing back the HEVC stream, that the detected MaxCLL was roughly the same. This leads me to believe that my tooling must be bad, along with VLC. But...they agree with each other. The UPC code on my copy is 0-24543-52017-7-80.
Can you test Rampage 4k blu-ray for the hdr?
I wonder if all bluray variants are produced in the same way, the original 21st century fox may differ from the Disney release.
Why is the wave form..looked like it’s clipping..
Right from the get go with 20th Century Fox logo i immediately noticed how dim this 4k transfer is.
man you do great content and analysis
how about a spin-off playlist series on the use of HDR in gaming Consoles as well as PC games
Great video. I'm with you all the way.
I guess it still is the Wild West of HDR standards right now. Thanks for your information and opinion.
Can you analyze Alien? It looks like true HDR to me because of the lamps on the helmets during the derelict exploration and when the Nostromo accelerates
Yes to Alien. Were you able to watch it in HDR10+?
@@TomlinsonHolman52583 I'm really not sure. How do I find out? My TV is a Sony A9G and player is UBP-X800.
@@HeavyMetalSonicRM - Your A9G supports HDR10, HLG, Dolby Vision, but not HDR10+. You would need a Samsung or Panasonic TV to see HDR10+ on Alien 4K Blu-ray. No matter, HDR10 on an A9G is marvelous.
@@TomlinsonHolman52583 I'm hoping to upgrade to a player that supports Dolby Vision. I've never seen it before and most people seem to prefer it over HDR10.
@@HeavyMetalSonicRM - Get a Panasonic UB9000. HDR10, HDR10+, HLG, Dolby Vision, built like a tank, has the best HDR Optimizer in the business.
Hi! How about HDR-testing The Dark Knight Rises OLED displays? How well they have converted the IMAX 70mm film to digital. In particular, scenes with great contrast details such as the night car chase sequence or the bane vs batman fight. I'm far from an expert, so if this doesn't make sense to test, then I know 🙂
I think you should def do more of these vids about individual titles but consider making them more compact. Try taking a look at the channel spare change. They have a great format that also looks at the overall presentation for movie enthusiasts. I often use them for reference when deciding if I'm going to spend the money on the 4k uhd or just get it digitaly online.
Also, the topic of piss poor hdr would have made a great video on its own and helped to being down this video to around 5 mins which would have been ideal. (but not for your ability for mid roll adds 😉)
Basically we will get proper HDR / proper 4K when they release 8k movies. Least we have Vincent to advise us before that milestone
I'm worried about Vince. He might get assassinated by the Hollywood people. 😂😂😂
Could you try making the same test to the Soul movie on disney plus?
Is the Dolby Vision version of this movie any better??? Also Panasonic released firmware for a ton of their TV's yesterday, any new firmware features???
Just get it over with already. Initiate a HDR standard, plug your current findings into that standard, set up a website showing which products do and don't meet that standard. Eventually, that standard will start being featured on the cases, like Energy Star on appliances.
I have watched the blu-ray and the 4k uncompressed rip via my Nvidia Shield and I find that the 4k version to be slightly dimmer then the blu Ray version, which I find very strange. I also find the color reproduction on the blu-ray version better then on the 4k version. I don't know if you can check this?
Maybe we need a certification program akin to THX for HDR etc.
Sorry guys, but I dont agree about some comments here. First: There are improvements in the 4k scenes. Please refer to your owners manual how to enable HDR. Second: This is a post apocalyptic movie. In bright funny sunshine colors the city would look like a summer vacation. The look is the choice of the makers of the movie. Alita is a Manga and the movie is about seeing instead of reading a manga. Printed Manga has a restricted color range and also did this movie . Deal with it.
4K resolution and WCG (wide colour gamut) is independent from HDR (high dynamic range). Please don't confuse your terminologies.
If this movie and others are in fact not technically HDR, what would they have to do to get this movie and others up to qualifications and what does that entail from a man hours perspective? Thank you
These analysis videos are informative and great. Would love to see analysis of:
*Alien*
*Blade* *Runner*
*Apocalypse* *Now*
*The* *Shining*
*Jaws*
*Close* *Encounters* *of* *the* *Third* *Kind*
*2001:* *A* *Space* *Odyssey*
*Star* *Wars*
*The* *Empire* *Strikes* *Back*
*Return* *of* *the* *Jedi*
😴
It's like watching a TH-cam video in 4k when it was clearly recorded in 720p.
Or when a movie has Dolby Atmos but they never use the height channels
Alita meant to be watched in 3d, 4k disc is waste of money.
Apparently they used fusion camera system ( the same camera used to shot avatar, hugo, and other native 3d movies) so picture quality and 3d deep should be great, I have to finally try this disc on my oled E6, and find out if that's true.
I love these videos. I'm slowly putting these titles on another shelf and labeling it "creative intent".
I knew something was up when certain movies looked way too dim.
Hdr or not is not a huge concern for me. As long as it improves over the regular Blu-rays I'm good with that. If it looks reference so be it, regardless of peek brightness. But I do agree grading can and should be improved.
Can you expect the same 10.000 nits setting for streaming services like iTunes?
Yes...
Well done! I was suspecting something like as many 4K movies does not look twice as better on 4k Tv as opposed on 1080p TV as for advertised double resolution "double the quality and price with it" combined with HDR which is the main selling point of those "new 4K" technologies. And I am not saying there is not difference, but definitely majority of the 4K movies even watched on 4K TV does not look twice as good as standard Blu-Ray on 1080p TV for sure cost twice and more than standard Blu-ray copy.
It seems that TV makers and studios are still confused on how to handle HDR. I can't blame media streaming services if the Blu-ray version of these movies aren't consistent about it.
They aren't, it's just people like Vincent or average Joes under his videos who don't understand that it's up to filmmakers to decide how their movies look, not some nit whores.
@MonsieurHiroshima Yes, I am stupid because I respect filmmakers' vision. If you love numbers that much, go and study math.
@MonsieurHiroshima THANK YOU!
It is beyond me why this particular splinter group of people are calling a direct lie just "intent". Wtf does that even mean? There is no "creative vision" in lying about HDR on your bluray. It's just scummy practice, that's it.
We need a standards body for HDR like yesterday, and while we're at it, a standards body to outline native and upscaled content too. Otherwise the consumer will continue to get lied to and we'll continue to get inferior products on a disc format that has only a limited number of years left before it is swallowed by the streaming market.
@MonsieurHiroshima How about shitty TVs with pathetic contrast ratio and horrible black levels that are being sold with HDR logo? Why aren't you after them? Studios ARE paying, it's up to director / DP / colorist how to use available tools. It's really not that hard to understand.
If you have good 4K TV (at least LCD with hundreds of dimming zones) and you did some actual comparisons between BDs and UBDs of the same titles than you should know how huge the difference can be even between movies upscaled from 2K and Alita is one of them. It looks outstanding in Dolby Vision on OLED.
@@peterm.4355 Not that hard to understand , yet you don't understand any of it
We as the consumer pay double if not more for formats such as HDR and Atmos
If they're not delivering on what we're paying for , then they need to be called out on it
So what about tvs false advertising? Two wrongs dont make a right.
And besides were talking about HDR standards in UHD not TV's. That's a whole separate argument
Can you tell us how the primary red, green, blue and white points work, and if they are supposed to guide (or not) translations from bits to colors and brightness? Thanks!
It seems like what they did is just have some intern apply a normalize filter with max brightness set to 1000 nits, which only appears for one frame. Really sad
There must be some reason for it, because it is so common across studios.
One thing I'm wondering about. Does this base tone mapping mastering effect both the HDR and Dolby Vision meta data? Would it be possible the streaming platforms have different gradings?
Love this series Vincent, please continue making more.
Agreed. I'm wondering if the HDR10+ and DV overcomes any possible problems of the false "10k nits" mastering metadata in regards to a TV's tone curve.
There is no very big difference with DTM, if DTM is done right, i.e. by BT.2390 spec. Of course HDR10+ is much more complex than Dolby Vision dynamic meta but other functional of Dolby Vision (that is Full, 4:4:4 4000 nits layer restoration, or IPTPQc2 colorspace) make Dolby Vision superiour. It is complex as fuck.
When HDR first came out, my initial concern was that we will start seeing worsening SDR content as all of it will be mastered for HDR first and then possibly just tone-mapped for SDR container. Now I realize my concerns were misplaced. The studios decided to take the opposite but equally lazy route.
@John Hooper there is. As well as 120 fps. Lol. And in dolby cinemas even dolby vision.
@John Hooper 4k Dolby Vision 120 hz? Only one cinema, TCL cinema. Only one film, Gemeni)) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grauman%27s_Chinese_Theatre
2k 120 hz dolby vision in any of 187 cinemas all over the world. No russia, alas.
@John Hooper yes, I was wrong, TCL showed 4k 120 Hz but without HDR. Sorry, but 2k 120 hz were in HDR, with Dolby Vision. Here www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1570452934
@John Hooper all those dolby cinemas support HDR. www.amctheatres.com/dolbycinema they are cobrended with AMC cinemas.
@John Hooper but that 3d 2k 120 hz is Dolby Vision i.e. is HDR. But yeah "Only theaters you will really see "HDR" in are the Dolby Vision enabled theaters but those still don't hit the contrast or brightness of a good FPD at home."
Put the HD disk in first to see what it looked like on my dads new samsung 4k qled tv followed by the 4k disk and neither of us could see any noticeable difference. wtf.
I watched many so called HDR films and maybe in 2 or 3 out of 60 was really nice picture 🤷