Would have been nice to show the watts during the 3 minute test. Also, since it's only 3 minutes, it also might have been more useful to show the entire 3 minute effort with the power overlayed during the 3 minute effort to see how it drops off.
THE Critical Power Model curve to view is Figure 2.13 "Long-duration human power output. Curves from reference 26" from a NASA 1964 paper "Maximum Human Power Output, NASA 1964". Yes. Fifty seven years ago, and still valid today. A "Healthy man" should be able to generate 200 W for 60 minutes. "First Class Athletes" 350 W for 60 minutes. E. Merckx on ergometer, 455 W for 60 minutes. ( Added on Later edition, 1975 ) The graph was featured in the Eddy Merckx Bicycles brochure of 2011. It's on ISSUU.
Um, Conor meant to say "MULTIPLY by naught point nine five," instead of divide. If you divide by a decimal, the value goes UP, not down. Maths, people.
Thank you. I agree that critical power and w prime gives a lot more information than FTP. If you add an exponential cut off for maximum sprint power you can accurately forecast a power duration curve from 1s to 1hr, and also forecast intervals and recovery periods during racing. My feeling is that beyond that you need a Riegel factor still as critical power doesn't last for ever. Would be interested in what more knowledgeable people think.
Excellent video again GCN. Love it when Conor gave us the dumbed down version of the Oxford PhD student science lecture and then seemed to lose interest!? ;-)
I did a similar 4-minute max effort for a research study. It was meant to be a "see God" type of effort. It's way worse than a 4-minute best average power because every second of it hurt as your power dropped over time.
Actually, if you go to Training Peaks, they have a value called Time To Exhaustion. It is the number of minutes you would be expected to hold FTP. It isn't an hour for most people. As to the values for the Sufferfest, they are actual numbers related to various activities and no two athletes should have the same numbers. The same with the values from Training Peaks WKO program.
Good timing. Just read a scientific study that used Critical Power to measure recovery/fatigue of participants. Basic result was needing to be below CP to recover, exactly as Conor says.
i track my progress by comparing my latest(to my last/trend) avg speed on a not-stop&one-stop-~40mile-route (backwards and forwards) which usually is subject to consistent and equal headwinds/tailswinds for either direction.
Surprised the computer manufacturers haven’t got a way of calculated your W prime and displaying it like a battery charge, with what your remaining “charge” means in terms of power for certain durations.
They have - I only discovered this a few weeks ago - You can add this to your Garmin as long as it's one of the later models and you can add apps to it with the Connect IQ store. And obviously, you need a power meter to make it work. Download apps.garmin.com/.../6dcfffe5-cd3d-41f3-8ba3... onto your Garmin. All you need to do then is set your personal CP level and W prime . I have found this the most useful stat on screen.
I'm fairly new to training and have no idea what kind of wattage I can hold over 20 minutes. I use the Belt Method. If I go down a notch I'm probably getting fitter.
That was three swears hard, a proper effort... I think the 4DP is a step ahead of this, as it also covers your recovery speed which is an important and highly variable metric.
Sounds like what I had to do for a cardiac stress test. It was awful. Fortunately, I "passed", but if you want to know your fitness, this should be the test for cycling.
You're going to use your anaerobic energy very quickly. When you say you're good at short duration, that just means your power in the first 30-90 seconds will be higher. But then you will fall off a cliff for the next 90 seconds of the 3 minute CP test. That's why the test works. You can't escape completely emptying your anaerobic power when you're doing a 100% maximal effort from go.
What's now needed is a digital stick to give those who are below critical power an electric shock and a notation on Strava that x rider is slacking. After 10 offenses, all KOMs will be taken away. Whoop will tell you if you should dare to ride at all!
400ftp, 372cp. Seems to tally with the FTP results gained from the lactate method. Would be interesting to see you perform this test Conor to see how close it is to your cp
You made a wee error (actually droppped a big clanger) in this video @1.27 (ish) FTP is ***multiply 20min power by 0.95***, Conner said divide it by 0.95.... (This must be a top pro hack for getting higher FTP!!!!)........Should be on next weeks hack or bodge ! ;) Get an extra 10% FTP by listening to Conner! yaaaaaay. I'm in!
Pretty sure Connor did it wrong 😔 the test requires resistance dynamically increase proportional to power output so that you can push harder. The way Connor described, sounds like he used constant power mode on his smart trainer so no surprise it closely resembled his FTP (and his constant power setting) any curve of power output is likely due to the speed at which the trainer adjusts resistance. If you do this test it must be done in sim mode with a flat road or with an old school fan turbo trainer.
3:08 onwards - if critical power is where the power-time curve levels off, surely it is way less than your 30-60 minute power? Elite ultra-endurance cyclists can keep up ~200w all day but I'm damn sure their ftp would be north of 300!
Consider that your 60 mimute power is generally only about 5% less than your 20 minute power. 200% longer with only 5% drop in power. As long as you fuel properly (which is basically impossible during a maximal effort) you might expect a 5% drop from FTP in 3 hours! So yeah ftp is higher than CP, but not that much higher and you can calculate it
Hmm...as hard as you can with no pacing? I can sprint for 30 seconds after which my legs are toast and I'm pretty much useless for an unknown period afterwards. Please clarify for cycling simpletons such as myself.
Push as hard as you can for 3 minutes, the last 30 seconds will represent your critical power Below it you can ride without using additional energy, above it you dig in your reserves
Critical Power (CP) is a factor of time. so CP60 is essentially FTP. CP20 is the 20 minute FTP test. CP120 is a two hour max power sustainable. this Oxford guy really spouts a lot of nonsense..
Thanks for explaining this, because as time reaches infinity, eventually you fall off the bike and produce zero watts. I'm new to this CP idea. It sounds interesting though about having capacity above the critical power. But I wonder where repeatability comes into play. Some riders can repeat efforts a lot, other riders can not repeat.
Would have been nice to show the watts during the 3 minute test. Also, since it's only 3 minutes, it also might have been more useful to show the entire 3 minute effort with the power overlayed during the 3 minute effort to see how it drops off.
This is a video with power, HR and RPMs superimposed over a live test.....a bit late ha. th-cam.com/video/Si6cExiFajI/w-d-xo.html
THE Critical Power Model curve to view is Figure 2.13 "Long-duration human power output. Curves from reference 26"
from a NASA 1964 paper "Maximum Human Power Output, NASA 1964".
Yes. Fifty seven years ago, and still valid today.
A "Healthy man" should be able to generate 200 W for 60 minutes.
"First Class Athletes" 350 W for 60 minutes.
E. Merckx on ergometer, 455 W for 60 minutes. ( Added on Later edition, 1975 )
The graph was featured in the Eddy Merckx Bicycles brochure of 2011.
It's on ISSUU.
Um, Conor meant to say "MULTIPLY by naught point nine five," instead of divide. If you divide by a decimal, the value goes UP, not down. Maths, people.
Thank you for correcting. This was the part of the video, where I lost interest.
Now everyone uses 105,263% of their FTP😂
@pwsouth second that 😂
Thank you. I agree that critical power and w prime gives a lot more information than FTP. If you add an exponential cut off for maximum sprint power you can accurately forecast a power duration curve from 1s to 1hr, and also forecast intervals and recovery periods during racing. My feeling is that beyond that you need a Riegel factor still as critical power doesn't last for ever. Would be interested in what more knowledgeable people think.
Excellent video again GCN. Love it when Conor gave us the dumbed down version of the Oxford PhD student science lecture and then seemed to lose interest!? ;-)
I did a similar 4-minute max effort for a research study. It was meant to be a "see God" type of effort. It's way worse than a 4-minute best average power because every second of it hurt as your power dropped over time.
It sounds a lot like the 4DP from Sufferfest.
Actually, if you go to Training Peaks, they have a value called Time To Exhaustion. It is the number of minutes you would be expected to hold FTP. It isn't an hour for most people.
As to the values for the Sufferfest, they are actual numbers related to various activities and no two athletes should have the same numbers. The same with the values from Training Peaks WKO program.
@@jamesmckenzie3532 really? TrainingPeaks can tell TTE? I thought only wko can do that.
@@Traveler_0901 Its a TrainingPeaks product. You can compute it using TP data though.
Good timing. Just read a scientific study that used Critical Power to measure recovery/fatigue of participants. Basic result was needing to be below CP to recover, exactly as Conor says.
Ah there was me hoping they'd mention the GoldenCheetah, which is great for modelling your CP
its' free so that's not gonna happen ;)
Didn't know this existed before. Looks amazing - thank you!
i track my progress by comparing my latest(to my last/trend) avg speed on a not-stop&one-stop-~40mile-route (backwards and forwards) which usually is subject to consistent and equal headwinds/tailswinds for either direction.
Finally! Hoping gtn will do a video about CP ad well
Can you post the power graph of your test? What % of your normal FTP was your critical power?
5 percent error is interesting when you consider that a time trial stage results are often separated by much smaller margins
Surprised the computer manufacturers haven’t got a way of calculated your W prime and displaying it like a battery charge, with what your remaining “charge” means in terms of power for certain durations.
They have - I only discovered this a few weeks ago - You can add this to your Garmin as long as it's one of the later models and you can add apps to it with the Connect IQ store. And obviously, you need a power meter to make it work.
Download apps.garmin.com/.../6dcfffe5-cd3d-41f3-8ba3... onto your Garmin. All you need to do then is set your personal CP level and W prime . I have found this the most useful stat on screen.
Correction - I think that link is broken. The app is called W' Balance (W Prime Balance) by nakan - It's on my edge 520+ and working well.
I'm fairly new to training and have no idea what kind of wattage I can hold over 20 minutes. I use the Belt Method. If I go down a notch I'm probably getting fitter.
At 0:41, Conor's bike looks like a large bird peaking over the park bench and now I can't unsee it.
So helpful as a metric FTP isn't everything! Very well explained
That was three swears hard, a proper effort... I think the 4DP is a step ahead of this, as it also covers your recovery speed which is an important and highly variable metric.
Sounds like what I had to do for a cardiac stress test. It was awful. Fortunately, I "passed", but if you want to know your fitness, this should be the test for cycling.
in the end everything is the same and refers to a power to exhaustion-curve.
so pick your "number" and train consistently according to it.
18:30 the morning after a really spicy dinner
There is also 'Sleep deprivation' effects in Audax training.
Silly me. I’ve been having random fun for decades, and I’ve been missing this?
How would this work for people who have high power output for short durations like sprinters but low fitness for duration?
You're going to use your anaerobic energy very quickly. When you say you're good at short duration, that just means your power in the first 30-90 seconds will be higher. But then you will fall off a cliff for the next 90 seconds of the 3 minute CP test. That's why the test works. You can't escape completely emptying your anaerobic power when you're doing a 100% maximal effort from go.
BEST vid on GCN EVER. #1.
What's now needed is a digital stick to give those who are below critical power an electric shock and a notation on Strava that x rider is slacking. After 10 offenses, all KOMs will be taken away. Whoop will tell you if you should dare to ride at all!
400ftp, 372cp. Seems to tally with the FTP results gained from the lactate method. Would be interesting to see you perform this test Conor to see how close it is to your cp
You made a wee error (actually droppped a big clanger) in this video @1.27 (ish) FTP is ***multiply 20min power by 0.95***, Conner said divide it by 0.95.... (This must be a top pro hack for getting higher FTP!!!!)........Should be on next weeks hack or bodge ! ;) Get an extra 10% FTP by listening to Conner! yaaaaaay. I'm in!
Lovin manny Arthur. Keep it up
At about 9:20 in Conner looked about as glassy-eyed as I was feeling.
Brilliant facial expressions! 3 mins can feel very long indeed. But I must...
Pretty sure Connor did it wrong 😔 the test requires resistance dynamically increase proportional to power output so that you can push harder. The way Connor described, sounds like he used constant power mode on his smart trainer so no surprise it closely resembled his FTP (and his constant power setting) any curve of power output is likely due to the speed at which the trainer adjusts resistance. If you do this test it must be done in sim mode with a flat road or with an old school fan turbo trainer.
I think we may just have had more of an insight into Connor's love life than we bargained for...
Thought you had to be seated for the FTP ramp test?
Conor, that face is going to haunt my dreams for the foreseeable future. 😳😱👹 Thanks. Great effort.
3:08 onwards - if critical power is where the power-time curve levels off, surely it is way less than your 30-60 minute power? Elite ultra-endurance cyclists can keep up ~200w all day but I'm damn sure their ftp would be north of 300!
Consider that your 60 mimute power is generally only about 5% less than your 20 minute power. 200% longer with only 5% drop in power. As long as you fuel properly (which is basically impossible during a maximal effort) you might expect a 5% drop from FTP in 3 hours! So yeah ftp is higher than CP, but not that much higher and you can calculate it
So what cycling apps offer this test?
Well done Connor. You took the best he had to give and didn't yawn once, not even the slightest gurn! Chapeau! (Pre-interview caffeine gel?)
Hmm...as hard as you can with no pacing? I can sprint for 30 seconds after which my legs are toast and I'm pretty much useless for an unknown period afterwards. Please clarify for cycling simpletons such as myself.
Yes. As hard as you can. No pacing. Full gas. Sprint from the go and hold on as long as you can. Conor was not faking it with how hard it really is.
what program was used to do this to get average watts for the last 30sec?
Carbo-load for a 3 min effort 😂
Watching this is so painful, it just scares me off from doing any power tests :D
Have you ever heard of 4DP test? 🤮
0:52 1 watt is 1 joule per second. If you measure KJ per second you are going to be very disillusioned!
OMG finally!!!!
The truth is, FTP and CP are equal. Ask Andrew Coggan (and both are equal to MLSS).
Ok, how about this, I'll just ride my bike!!! 😂😉
4DP for the win !!
i found this very confusing. can you do a simpler explanation for dumb people like me? keep up the good work.
th-cam.com/video/86Sw3vOCq9U/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/hCIR59UKiVs/w-d-xo.html
Push as hard as you can for 3 minutes, the last 30 seconds will represent your critical power
Below it you can ride without using additional energy, above it you dig in your reserves
Critical power=Zone 2
The best metric still is beer capacity.
Multiply by 0.95...
Those faces haha 😂
Critical Power (CP) is a factor of time. so CP60 is essentially FTP. CP20 is the 20 minute FTP test. CP120 is a two hour max power sustainable. this Oxford guy really spouts a lot of nonsense..
Thanks for explaining this, because as time reaches infinity, eventually you fall off the bike and produce zero watts. I'm new to this CP idea. It sounds interesting though about having capacity above the critical power. But I wonder where repeatability comes into play. Some riders can repeat efforts a lot, other riders can not repeat.
You got your math wrong. Try again! Better have people with technical knowledge proof your vids if you are going to dive into these areas…