Have you ever used or heard of more than one notch on a tree at different levels? I'm sure there have been some idiculous practices over the years... Just thinking of random or risky stuff since I've never even seen this back angled cut before...
I've been running a chainsaw for 25 years, and far from an expert. That's why I enjoy watching experts like you. I've never used an angle back cut, but you do an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of felling. The dry humor is icing on the cake. Keep up the great work!
If anybody has done anything for a quarter of a century and still isn't an expert. They are in fact a compete and total failure. Even if that which they are doing is only a hobby.. I'm sorry but twenty-five years is far longer than necessary. To gain experience enough to be an expert
Gerald Williams "complete and total failure". What a sad note thats the best comment you could come up with. I don't know either of you and you don't know each other. From what I can tell he is ok. My opinion of you (I only know you from your abrasive comment) I will respectfully keep to myself.
Geraldwilliams, I got a good laugh out of that comment. You must be a 13 year old typist. Or an expert in many ways. I'm sure that the latter is not true. But keep typing son, sooner or later you'll grow up... someday, maybe.
@@vinfricano3970 so sorry didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Don't take it personally it is just an observation. 10000 hours of doing something qualifies one as expert. That's roughly ten hours a week for twenty-five years. Like I said even a hobby. Twenty-five years of doing that hobby. Should make someone an expert. Five years professionally I've done a few things in my professional life and changed careers a few times. Yea I'm an expert at a few things no point in doing anything. If you're not going to give it your all
@@vinfricano3970 and if you don't give it the necessary attention. Then yes that's a failure. Why waste time doing anything. If you're not striving for perfection at that task.
A great explanation of why an angled back cut should never be used in tree felling. Your theory makes good sense as it is not really obvious to the novice. I also appreciated your dry humour as well.
I'm a faller and a climber of over 20 years on the north coast of BC 🇨🇦. I always assumed that the angled back cut was a hold over from a time when people used hand saws to fell small trees specifically. One might use an axe to chop a quick face cut but then switch to a hand saw to complete the back cut and it's easier to use a handsaw in a position closer to vertical as opposed to horizontally. Whereas on a large tree there is more room and such a short stump is not necessary and so it would be more worth it to start that back cut flat for all the recognized reasons. This is just my assumption but I've often pondered the subject.
This is an interesting subject, but not for the obvious reasons. Things like how to properly cut down a tree were once upon a time left to faulty intuition and the school of hard knocks, in the absence of a good teacher or a handy book. Now we have constant access to instructions in the palm of our hand while being entertained at the same time. Still need some judgment to discern who knows what they are videoing though. Your reasonable explanations and humor make this channel a joy to watch, and I know it will save someone a hard lesson. Great job!
Excellent explanation of why to not make the angled backcut, I have been an instructor of the subject for 29 years and agree wholeheartedly with you. There are 2 more reasons not to and if you finish too low on the backcut it becomes a doorstop and too high can trigger a barber chair. I was interested in seeing you make the flat cut of the conventional notch first, perhaps its a western thing but I've always felt the angle cut first will make lining up and sizing the notch easier, especially when correction is needed.
My dad cut trees with the angled back cut. As a result so have I. Always seemed to work for him and has worked for me as well. In light of your explanation I will change my ways in the future. Never to late to learn something new.
I’m not arborist by any means but idk if it’s my background but I could honestly recognize the potential problems with the angled back cut immediately. His explanation was exactly what I had visualized, although I could not explain it as simple as he did. I don’t cut down trees for a living and yet I enjoy learning from experts in other fields even if it’s something I might never actually do. I just love learning. Quite the opposite as when I was a child. lol.
I was taught to never do the angled backcut but never gave it much thought to why its a bad idea. This was a great video and it really makes sense to why its a infurior cut to say the Humboldt or other proper cuts. And as always you got some laughs out of me. Keep it up.
Thanks a bunch. Your explanation of forces explained the "why" of doing backcuts the right way. Well . . . "the whys." You're right that being laughed at or scorned, apart from merely staying alive, are also good reasons to make the backcuts horizontal! 🙂
My father taught me to do the angle back cut, he learned from someone in the 50's/60's on tree falling. He told me the same reasons you mentioned, i.e. prevent tree falling back on itself. I've learned in the last few years on proper cuts and falling along with my son took college classes for it on his conservation courses.
I asked a person using an angled back cut why they were doing that and they said, "it keeps the tree from backing off the stump when it's falling". They had no idea what a hinge was or what it did. I corrected them but I'm not sure it sunk in.
I’m no lumber jack, and don’t claim to be but I’ve never seen anyone do a cut like that, but obviously they are. Don’t know why, but thanks for explaining it that way and why not to do it. Pro trades guys are always great watch and learn from. Thank you.
have seen that many times over the years, the 'chuckler' for me the last few years is skidder operator wannabe fallers making compound angled humbolt cuts with (firewood) trees going everywhere but where they intended. great video
Thank you for the explanation! That makes sense. I had to cut a large tree pine that was touching my wood stove pipe and did it the good horizontal way. I did not realize that a strong grapevine was attached to the tree, about 10 feet away from the truck acting like a line in the wrong direction. The tree swayed the correct way, I took my saw out, and then it settled back on itself like you said, so the horizontal cut saved it from going any further back. We already had another line on the correct side and hooked up the tractor to pull it over the right way. Not sure what would have happened if we did the angled cut as our tree was bigger than the one in your demo. If I had to do it again I might consider the plunge/bore cut so I could have time to take my chain saw out and add some wedges before making the final cut. When the tree settled back on itself I could not get any wedges in so was fortunate we had the extra line already hooked up to pull it the way we wanted.
The hinge on the convention method (top) is very strong, if left thick enough, and places a simple 'up' pull on that hinge, strong and tensile. That angled-back-cut places a kick-forward lever out and is a shear-force forward on that hinge. Thank you for this great explanation and great demo.
I never knew the angle cut was a thing. I watched my Grampa and other guys make their cuts as you recommend. Glad I found your channel to get expert advice though since I'm getting back into gathering firewood. Cheers to you!
I’ve been wanting to make this video for a while. I call it the farmer’s cut, and I think they believe it’s helping push the tree in that direction. Good points: also, like you said, you just introduce another angle cut to line up.
I just made an angled backcut yesterday, believe it or not. The tree was leaning plenty, so no danger. I kind of *had* to do it though, because I made the notch a little below the "Y" in a double-stemmed tree, and only wanted to cut the one side. Besides my reason, there are two reasons why someone would want to do it, that I can think of. One: it's easier when gravity helps pull the saw through the tree. Two: there is more room for a wedge. A possible third is that you do get a bit more leverage when wedging the tree. But that is dangerous, so not really a valid reason. And, yes, I'm (kind of) a farmer.
Ove neen a timber faller for over 40 years and it's hreat to finally see a video of an experienced faller who knows exactly what he is talking about, there is a vast storehouse of misinformation regurgitating on the web surrounding this subject and this guy sets it all straight, excellent video beautifully articulated and laced with a bit of great humor!
Glad someone has made a video about this, up here in northern mi I’ve seen a lot of people do that senseless cut, I was always taught that was wrong luckily
Im so thankful for people like this. Honestly, ive met so many tree cutters that I've literally gave an idea to an they told me "Wow thats better than what I had in mind." Literally I couldnt count on my hands and toes how many times its occurred. I wouldnt consider myself to be a professional at cutting trees but I've cut/climed better than alot of timbers thanks to professionals giving information like this.
Nice explanation. Saw a "feller" do this at a neighbors house, for a tree that was close to the house. I knew not to do this, and read more in the classic "how to fell a tree", but he was the one with the saw and already into the cut. It worked fine, but it's good to keep in mind why it shouldn't be done. Personally, my problem trees tend to be the tiny 6-8" ones, or medium ones on a slope that make it hard to judge being straight. The tiny ones (100lbs and less xmas tree size) don't have room for a wedge, and often I get sloppy, just doing a diagonal cut instead of cutting out a wedge first. But even a small diagonal front cut first often gives enough room to get these things going in the right direction.
I believe one reason why some people make an angled backcut is because they don't know to leave enough material for the hinge to allow the tree to fulcrum over on. The idea being - when their hinge breaks and it will.....the up angled backcut should prevent the upper portion of the tree from skipping or skating backward across the trunk, such as when a person makes there backcut all the way through to their face cut in effect the pivot point is at the bottom of the backcut even though there is no hinge, there is still a pivot point there. The main detriment I know of doing this though is the angled backcut can often barber chair as the tree goes over and puts splitting stress against the angeled backcut reducing any effectiveness of it's use to begin with. Many newbies don't know that wood is only strong in one direction, which you effectively pointed out well. Great Vid
I just came across your video and had to reply. Excellent explanation. I do tree work for a living and I have never used an angled back back cut because it never made sence to me for reasons you explained. Also, Someone inexperienced has a higher chance of cutting through the hinge wood and at the same time the tree could potentially slip off the stump and be out os control.
Back in the day when I was timber falling here in the Pacific Northwest we always used the Humbolt face to help guide the tree as it fell. We had good control of the fall and it was much safer. Besides it gave a little bit more good wood on the tree butt. Blessings to you.
Not sure how a Humboldt would be of any service to you guiding its direction of travel once the kerf breaches the holding wood. I always understood that the Humboldt cut was a way to mitigate having the spar go nose first into the ground before fully releasing from the stump. Maybe I got that wrong 🤔
The Humboldt started to be used because you’re not cutting into the log,thus wasting wood. Before chain saws were used in the woods,they used to chop the tree down or use big two man hand saws so doing a conventional cut was easier to do.
@@Whateva67 The one time I got to cut a tree down, it was using a cross cut saw because we were working on a project inside of a national wilderness where any sort of motorized equipment was banned. And yes, we cut the notch the way that he does in the video and yes, we did a straight cut until the tree fell. It fell exactly where we wanted to because when we cut the notch, we cut it fromt he side facing where we wanted it to fall. I'm not personally sure that the wedges are really needed with a cross cut saw as they cut quickly enough that you wouldn't stop until it starts falling.
Very good explanation of the physics involved in both types of cut. Had to use this to show some people I know, so they could see why you never don't do an angled cut.
Disclosure....I'm not an expert but have felled many trees using the angle cut due to watching a professional arborist use the cut. After watching your video I certainly understand your logical reasoning behind your method. I will start using you method and try to find my man card. Thanks for the video
Hello from new-Brunswick, Canada. Thank you for a great lesson. I felled a 40 ft elm yesterday ( Dutch elm disease ) and I make my cuts as you do. That steep angle cut I have never seen before. And I like the undercut mainly for me as to not waste any good lumber from the butt log. The elm I just cut has a sound 12 ft 1st log starting at 16 inches and tapers slowly to 12 ft at 12 inches: great hardwood lumber. I am 64 and I remember slashing for a Timberjack 230 100 ft white pine and at the end of the day my hands would be in so much pain fr those Partner saws and I was in my early 20's. Thanks again.
There is one time to use the angled back cut, and that is the final cut of a dog tooth cut, which is used to fell trees which the weight is in the opposite direction to the direction of fall. It is a very useful cut to know. Especially if you are in a restricted space.
I could never think of a good reason either. We had stumps with the evidence remaining when we bought this land and I always thought 'why' everytime I saw one.
Excellent video exposing the truth. Thank you. Through my entire career as a professional Wildland Firefighter (30 years) with formal training and experience bringing me to a Class C (unlimited) faller I never heard about, or saw, a silly angled back cut stump. Upon retirement and moving to another state I noticed some silly angled back cut stumps while out doing some personal fuel wood cutting. I could only look at those stumps and declare: "What kind of ignorant Nimrod buffoon would fell a tree in such a way? I still don't know.
Informative. I’ve done it a few times with trees growing in clumps trying to squeeze the saw into one stem at a time without sawing through all the crap and dirt down in the bottom of the wedge or doing plunge cuts. Usually only trees that don’t need wedged.
That slanted back cut is called a farmer cut in the timber falling business. If you try to use a wedge the back will split out. With a horizontal back cut wedging forces are only up and down, not splitting anything. By the way, Hoss, I would tighten the bottom straps of your chaps pull the protection around the front of your shins. Below the knees is where a kickback will usually hit. Nice channel and really experienced advice for folks wanting to learn about logging and forest management!
I think you hit on the real reason why an angle cut might be the best when you mentioned how the back part might spilt off. I think this would be more of a problem with a small tree than a larger one. The one advantage to the farmer's cut is that it's easier to hold the chainsaw that way when you're cutting low on the trunk
All good, as I've come to expect from your content. Well explained. And greetings from the UK. You kindly expressed interest in different terminology used here in a previous comment, so here's some more. If I'm felling a big tree with heavy lean and felling with the lean, my felling cut (back cut) may look a bit like a sloping back cut, 'cos I'm doing a dog tooth. To explain: My gob (conventional 'undercuts' or bird's mouth) is going to be very low on the tree. To stop barber chairing (yes in the UK we call that the same thing) I'll bore cut to the hinge and then come back to a strap which will hold the tree up. I'll stand and release the strap by cutting down at around 45 degrees to meet the felling cut (back cut). This leaves a dog's tooth sticking up. But though it looks a bit like your angled back cut it really isn't 'cos the felling cut (back cut) is still horizontal (like it should be). I may do a couple of ears either side and below the hinge to stop tear-out, especially if I want the stump to stand a chance of coppicing. When I'm doing derelict coppice, I may be in stems that are really adjacent (on the same stool) and there may be several that all need to go different ways to keep from tangling. Not much room and they'll typically be less than twice guide bar width, so not enough room to bore in for the felling cut after the gob has gone in on a stem. Here I might do a sloping felling cut 'cos there is no room to do anything else without cutting into other stems. I'll be felling with lean. No room or need for wedges. Conifers don't coppice. Except yew, sometimes. Yew is weird. The cones look like berries and the timber is hard. Ever heard of cushion cuts also known as Danish pie cuts?
Good explanation. I have told people that as well and they look at me like I’m stupid. Oh well, some people cannot think logically. I liked that you mentioned most people get away with it :) Another consideration I have thought of is treating it like a lazy stepped back cut to help in the event of a barber chair, but it would be minimally effective and I think what you have talked about is probably the majority of people’s reasoning.
The angled back cut comes from all the cartoons we watched as kids haha. Drives me insane seeing angled back cuts. The only time I've seen an angled cut done professionally is when they needed to slip the tree down to the ground on a steel hill.
I was taught to cut trees the right way, and never had the notion of doing an angled back cut until I saw someone doing one. I immediately realized how unsafe it was. The way you showed uneasiness on how to start that cut is exactly how I felt watching this other fella. Luckily the fella didn't hurt himself. Great video on this subject, I too would be embarrassed to leave evidence of this.
Great video. This should be standard shown in public schools, right along with don't cross your straps to secure a vehicle to a trailer, but do cross your safety chains.
Bla ha ha that was pretty funny, I personally have never seen that type of cut before but I see your point about the splitting trunk, good assessment. I will be cutting a Maple tree with a 24" diameter main trunk and it Y's about 6'ft of the ground. The Y branch is about 15"in dia. and cutting down vertically on the release cut will technically be an angle cut. I will do the traditional pie cut first then vertical for the release.
Very nice! If I may add... An angled back cut has less area and width to support the tree if a set back occurs, it is difficult to match the back cut height with the hinge properly (you hinted at that), and it is near impossible to adjust hinge thickness after the top of the angle is established where as a horizontal cut one can nibble more hinge if needed. Thanks for disposing of the evidence 😂I cringe when I see stumps like that!
Great explanation! Makes sense. My father taught me to do the angled back cut 50 years ago. I have only had one problem in all these years but it could have been worst. It cost me a bar but oh well. I heat with wood and cut a lot. I never had luck with the wedges. Apparently because I was cutting wrong. Lol I'll do this from now on.
Thank you for this. I was never shown how to properly fell a tree. I do it often enough to be dangerous. And I’ve done it wrong every time with lucky results.
An excellent video outlining some of the reasons it not wise to make those cringe-worthy angled back cuts. It is refreshing as well to see someone with a proper sized bar (not"blade") on the saw.... tho I must say I prefer the all orange saws myself. 😉
I see this so often. Recently, my neighbor was felling a medium sized poplar. I watched him notch the tree and it was actually a decent opened face notch. He then proceeded to back cut it with the angled back cut. Also, the back cut was about 8 inches above the notch apex.
The misguided folks that recommend that angled backcut believe it prevents the tree from kicking back. They are wrong...but I have heard it many times. Great explanation of tensile vs. shear strength, thanks for posting this video.
This is a great series of videos. I've been using chainsaws for about fifty years and never had an accident, never a near miss. Always safety first. I haven't seen many people do an angled cut like this but it's stupid for all the reasons to list. These, days, with TH-cam, anyone can learn how to use a chainsaw properly.
Great video, I found your channel at the beginning of the board straightening experiment and I've been watching ever since. Your numbers are growing, keep it up and happy holidays!
I would expect a good chance of the stump area to split off the backside. Tree felling can be leathal, not just anybody should do it. I am amazed more people are not dying trying. Great job thanks.
Imagine doing this with a cross cut. I remember getting to do it once years ago, and I don't remember using wedges either. But, the reality is that if you make the notch correctly, you shouldn't need the wedges and barring some freak accident, you know exactly where the tree is going to fall. I don't even know why one would think you'd need to back side angle as if you've cut far enough with the notch, All you're doing is removing the bits furthest away from the notch until the tree falls over on it's own.
I can see that what you are saying makes good sense. I used that angled backcut once when falling a tree up hill, which also had a slight lean toward uphill, my guess, such as it was, was that it might prevent the tree from sliding back off the stump after falling, as a back stop if you will. I also hoped to avoid a barber chair affect.
It drives me crazy to see angled back cuts! You're right, always see it in the firewood cutting zones. Even in my town I noticed a group of trees had been taken down by the town and all of them had angled back cuts. Not sure OSHA would think its ok.
I learned NOT to do an angled back cut, and every time it's see the evidence of one, especially from long time firewood cutters (not that it's tantamount to professional experience) - I would always wonder why... and I think you gave a pretty good illustration of why some may think it's a good idea, when it's actually not and potentially more hazardous. Great video.
Good video on explaining the difference in the cuts. I’ve gotten some logs from some tree services I get logs from that have the slanted angle cut on the logs. And I just wonder what there thinking. Thanks for sharing
Good video. In the UK we are taught to use a dogs tooth angled cut for forward leaners. The angle is just the trigger, it has a bore cut to prevent barber chair and set the hinge. A bore cut then normal back cut is likely better but not taught here.
The angled back cut is from inexperience and thinking it's a safe guard against the tree falling the wrong way as you mentioned. It really clicked with me when someone said if you have to wedge, the angled cut presses the wood apart splitting the stump and a flat cut pushes the wedge straight down into the stump and straight up into the tree so it's impossible to split the stump, assuming the tree is solid.
I’ll be the first to admit it. I did the angled back cut from 12 to 28 years old. Hahaha. I will give credit to the TH-cam channels that have taught bits and pieces of very important information. Great community to watch, learn and enjoy. Thanks!
0:45 i was thought this technique by an old government land worker. His thinking on it was that the cut was cupping the tree so it wouldn't slip and come back. I mentioned that the tree will fall at highest hinge and could fall back quite easily. He replied. He never used the cut on a straight up tree only ever on leaning trees. For him the angle of the tree was the determining factor. His face cut was never flat though always slightly angled down.
I heat with wood so I cut alot...lm no lumberjack but enjoy your insight and techniques...I'm envous of some of your cool logging toys I wish I had ! Merry Christmas
The justification for an angled back cut that I've seen is when you're trying to make a small tree fall in a direction against its lean. The angled cut lets you fit both a wedge and your saw into the cut at the same time, preventing your saw from being pinched. But I see what you mean about the angled cut encouraging a split.
Back in the seventies Husqvarna had instructions in manual how to tell a tree friend of mine who had no experience told me that was the correct way told him he was nuts
Totally agree with your analysis of this stupid back cut. I have never done one and never will. Loved the stashing of the evidence but I would have burned those ends to ash instead of leaving them in the forest!!! 😊
I never heard of an angle back cut. If I ever cut down a tree, I will be sure to NOT do that. Since in all my 77 years, I have never cut a tree down, I probably never will. HOWEVER ….. I find your videos informative, entertaining and I love the dry humor.
I've actually never seen that kind of cut. Glad a professional showed me! Professional what though... Thanks for the tip. And visual display that nobody has seen.(ahem... over 10k views so far though)
Nearly all of the power company contractors around here make the angled back cut. I asked one of them one time why they do that and he said that it was how they were taught. I've only been cutting full time for 31 years so I don't know much about it, but it's definitely the wrong thing to do.
I am a certified arborist who’s been felling trees for over 20 years and I couldn’t have described this any better myself. Great video.
Have you ever used or heard of more than one notch on a tree at different levels? I'm sure there have been some idiculous practices over the years... Just thinking of random or risky stuff since I've never even seen this back angled cut before...
I've been running a chainsaw for 25 years, and far from an expert. That's why I enjoy watching experts like you. I've never used an angle back cut, but you do an excellent job of explaining the intricacies of felling. The dry humor is icing on the cake. Keep up the great work!
If anybody has done anything for a quarter of a century and still isn't an expert. They are in fact a compete and total failure. Even if that which they are doing is only a hobby.. I'm sorry but twenty-five years is far longer than necessary. To gain experience enough to be an expert
Gerald Williams "complete and total failure".
What a sad note thats the best comment you could come up with.
I don't know either of you and you don't know each other.
From what I can tell he is ok.
My opinion of you (I only know you from your abrasive comment) I will respectfully keep to myself.
Geraldwilliams, I got a good laugh out of that comment. You must be a 13 year old typist. Or an expert in many ways. I'm sure that the latter is not true. But keep typing son, sooner or later you'll grow up... someday, maybe.
@@vinfricano3970 so sorry didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Don't take it personally it is just an observation. 10000 hours of doing something qualifies one as expert.
That's roughly ten hours a week for twenty-five years. Like I said even a hobby. Twenty-five years of doing that hobby. Should make someone an expert.
Five years professionally I've done a few things in my professional life and changed careers a few times. Yea I'm an expert at a few things no point in doing anything. If you're not going to give it your all
@@vinfricano3970 and if you don't give it the necessary attention. Then yes that's a failure. Why waste time doing anything. If you're not striving for perfection at that task.
I liked how you stashed the “evidence!”👍😀
A great explanation of why an angled back cut should never be used in tree felling. Your theory makes good sense as it is not really obvious to the novice. I also appreciated your dry humour as well.
I'm a faller and a climber of over 20 years on the north coast of BC 🇨🇦. I always assumed that the angled back cut was a hold over from a time when people used hand saws to fell small trees specifically. One might use an axe to chop a quick face cut but then switch to a hand saw to complete the back cut and it's easier to use a handsaw in a position closer to vertical as opposed to horizontally. Whereas on a large tree there is more room and such a short stump is not necessary and so it would be more worth it to start that back cut flat for all the recognized reasons. This is just my assumption but I've often pondered the subject.
Can you imagine trying to explain an angled back cut to the bullbucker on a stump audit? BC fallers know best.
Stay safe out there brother
agree I hinge cut trees for wildlife forage and use a handsaw at an angle.
excellent. you'd be right I think. and you wouldn't need such a high angle either.
This is an interesting subject, but not for the obvious reasons. Things like how to properly cut down a tree were once upon a time left to faulty intuition and the school of hard knocks, in the absence of a good teacher or a handy book. Now we have constant access to instructions in the palm of our hand while being entertained at the same time. Still need some judgment to discern who knows what they are videoing though. Your reasonable explanations and humor make this channel a joy to watch, and I know it will save someone a hard lesson. Great job!
Nice explanation of why not to. Never heard of anyone making that goofy mistake, but. People will surprise you.
no it was left to your upbringing as vital part of your culture
That was the most informative explanation on the topic of tensile strength (relative to tree felling) I have ever seen.
Thank you Mr. Wilson.
Excellent explanation of why to not make the angled backcut, I have been an instructor of the subject for 29 years and agree wholeheartedly with you. There are 2 more reasons not to and if you finish too low on the backcut it becomes a doorstop and too high can trigger a barber chair. I was interested in seeing you make the flat cut of the conventional notch first, perhaps its a western thing but I've always felt the angle cut first will make lining up and sizing the notch easier, especially when correction is needed.
My dad cut trees with the angled back cut. As a result so have I. Always seemed to work for him and has worked for me as well. In light of your explanation I will change my ways in the future. Never to late to learn something new.
I’m not arborist by any means but idk if it’s my background but I could honestly recognize the potential problems with the angled back cut immediately. His explanation was exactly what I had visualized, although I could not explain it as simple as he did. I don’t cut down trees for a living and yet I enjoy learning from experts in other fields even if it’s something I might never actually do. I just love learning. Quite the opposite as when I was a child. lol.
I was taught to never do the angled backcut but never gave it much thought to why its a bad idea. This was a great video and it really makes sense to why its a infurior cut to say the Humboldt or other proper cuts.
And as always you got some laughs out of me. Keep it up.
The Humboldt is not a back cut.
Thanks a bunch. Your explanation of forces explained the "why" of doing backcuts the right way. Well . . . "the whys." You're right that being laughed at or scorned, apart from merely staying alive, are also good reasons to make the backcuts horizontal! 🙂
I’m old, retired and probably never going to the woods again except to camp. But I sure do enjoy your videos. Thank you for them.
My father taught me to do the angle back cut, he learned from someone in the 50's/60's on tree falling. He told me the same reasons you mentioned, i.e. prevent tree falling back on itself. I've learned in the last few years on proper cuts and falling along with my son took college classes for it on his conservation courses.
I never knew the angle back cut was a thing. Thanks for explaining to us that dont know what is going on inside as it makes sense to me..
When I drop trees to cut for firewood I use the Humboldt cut and normal back cut and then pound wedges and see the tree fall . I hate wasting wood !
I asked a person using an angled back cut why they were doing that and they said, "it keeps the tree from backing off the stump when it's falling". They had no idea what a hinge was or what it did. I corrected them but I'm not sure it sunk in.
I’m no lumber jack, and don’t claim to be but I’ve never seen anyone do a cut like that, but obviously they are. Don’t know why, but thanks for explaining it that way and why not to do it. Pro trades guys are always great watch and learn from. Thank you.
have seen that many times over the years, the 'chuckler' for me the last few years is skidder operator wannabe fallers making compound angled humbolt cuts with (firewood) trees going everywhere but where they intended. great video
Thank you for the explanation! That makes sense.
I had to cut a large tree pine that was touching my wood stove pipe and did it the good horizontal way. I did not realize that a strong grapevine was attached to the tree, about 10 feet away from the truck acting like a line in the wrong direction. The tree swayed the correct way, I took my saw out, and then it settled back on itself like you said, so the horizontal cut saved it from going any further back. We already had another line on the correct side and hooked up the tractor to pull it over the right way. Not sure what would have happened if we did the angled cut as our tree was bigger than the one in your demo.
If I had to do it again I might consider the plunge/bore cut so I could have time to take my chain saw out and add some wedges before making the final cut. When the tree settled back on itself I could not get any wedges in so was fortunate we had the extra line already hooked up to pull it the way we wanted.
The hinge on the convention method (top) is very strong, if left thick enough, and places a simple 'up' pull on that hinge, strong and tensile. That angled-back-cut places a kick-forward lever out and is a shear-force forward on that hinge. Thank you for this great explanation and great demo.
Great video. Never heard it put better. And the humor at the end was perfect!
I never knew the angle cut was a thing. I watched my Grampa and other guys make their cuts as you recommend. Glad I found your channel to get expert advice though since I'm getting back into gathering firewood. Cheers to you!
I am humbled . Great video.. I deal with old growth upstream of edmonton. Trying to stay safe txs
I’ve been wanting to make this video for a while. I call it the farmer’s cut, and I think they believe it’s helping push the tree in that direction.
Good points: also, like you said, you just introduce another angle cut to line up.
taken the words out of my mouth too
Hey now ! Us farmers have feelings too 😂
I thought the farmer's cut was an overly open face cut.
I just made an angled backcut yesterday, believe it or not. The tree was leaning plenty, so no danger. I kind of *had* to do it though, because I made the notch a little below the "Y" in a double-stemmed tree, and only wanted to cut the one side. Besides my reason, there are two reasons why someone would want to do it, that I can think of. One: it's easier when gravity helps pull the saw through the tree. Two: there is more room for a wedge. A possible third is that you do get a bit more leverage when wedging the tree. But that is dangerous, so not really a valid reason.
And, yes, I'm (kind of) a farmer.
As a farmer in my 7th decade I'm a bit insulted. Fortunately, I'm not thin skinned. Don't talk down to farmers with your mouth full.
I love your sense of humor!
Ove neen a timber faller for over 40 years and it's hreat to finally see a video of an experienced faller who knows exactly what he is talking about, there is a vast storehouse of misinformation regurgitating on the web surrounding this subject and this guy sets it all straight, excellent video beautifully articulated and laced with a bit of great humor!
Glad someone has made a video about this, up here in northern mi I’ve seen a lot of people do that senseless cut, I was always taught that was wrong luckily
Growing up I had to gather firewood every summer. My dad taught me this wrong way. You're explanation makes perfect sense.
Im so thankful for people like this. Honestly, ive met so many tree cutters that I've literally gave an idea to an they told me "Wow thats better than what I had in mind." Literally I couldnt count on my hands and toes how many times its occurred. I wouldnt consider myself to be a professional at cutting trees but I've cut/climed better than alot of timbers thanks to professionals giving information like this.
You explain things very well with a very clear message that gives a very direct understanding of what two and what not to do
Thank you for a clear understanding of the angled back cut shearing the hinge fibers.
Nice explanation. Saw a "feller" do this at a neighbors house, for a tree that was close to the house. I knew not to do this, and read more in the classic "how to fell a tree", but he was the one with the saw and already into the cut. It worked fine, but it's good to keep in mind why it shouldn't be done.
Personally, my problem trees tend to be the tiny 6-8" ones, or medium ones on a slope that make it hard to judge being straight. The tiny ones (100lbs and less xmas tree size) don't have room for a wedge, and often I get sloppy, just doing a diagonal cut instead of cutting out a wedge first. But even a small diagonal front cut first often gives enough room to get these things going in the right direction.
I believe one reason why some people make an angled backcut is because they don't know to leave enough material for the hinge to allow the tree to fulcrum over on.
The idea being - when their hinge breaks and it will.....the up angled backcut should prevent the upper portion of the tree from skipping or skating backward across the trunk, such as when a person makes there backcut all the way through to their face cut in effect the pivot point is at the bottom of the backcut even though there is no hinge, there is still a pivot point there.
The main detriment I know of doing this though is the angled backcut can often barber chair as the tree goes over and puts splitting stress against the angeled backcut reducing any effectiveness of it's use to begin with.
Many newbies don't know that wood is only strong in one direction, which you effectively pointed out well.
Great Vid
I just came across your video and had to reply. Excellent explanation. I do tree work for a living and I have never used an angled back back cut because it never made sence to me for reasons you explained. Also, Someone inexperienced has a higher chance of cutting through the hinge wood and at the same time the tree could potentially slip off the stump and be out os control.
Back in the day when I was timber falling here in the Pacific Northwest we always used the Humbolt face to help guide the tree as it fell. We had good control of the fall and it was much safer. Besides it gave a little bit more good wood on the tree butt. Blessings to you.
Not sure how a Humboldt would be of any service to you guiding its direction of travel once the kerf breaches the holding wood.
I always understood that the Humboldt cut was a way to mitigate having the spar go nose first into the ground before fully releasing from the stump.
Maybe I got that wrong 🤔
The Humboldt started to be used because you’re not cutting into the log,thus wasting wood. Before chain saws were used in the woods,they used to chop the tree down or use big two man hand saws so doing a conventional cut was easier to do.
@@Whateva67 The one time I got to cut a tree down, it was using a cross cut saw because we were working on a project inside of a national wilderness where any sort of motorized equipment was banned. And yes, we cut the notch the way that he does in the video and yes, we did a straight cut until the tree fell. It fell exactly where we wanted to because when we cut the notch, we cut it fromt he side facing where we wanted it to fall. I'm not personally sure that the wedges are really needed with a cross cut saw as they cut quickly enough that you wouldn't stop until it starts falling.
Very good explanation of the physics involved in both types of cut. Had to use this to show some people I know, so they could see why you never don't do an angled cut.
Disclosure....I'm not an expert but have felled many trees using the angle cut due to watching a professional arborist use the cut. After watching your video I certainly understand your logical reasoning behind your method. I will start using you method and try to find my man card. Thanks for the video
Hello from new-Brunswick, Canada. Thank you for a great lesson. I felled a 40 ft elm yesterday ( Dutch elm disease ) and I make my cuts as you do. That steep angle cut I have never seen before. And I like the undercut mainly for me as to not waste any good lumber from the butt log. The elm I just cut has a sound 12 ft 1st log starting at 16 inches and tapers slowly to 12 ft at 12 inches: great hardwood lumber. I am 64 and I remember slashing for a Timberjack 230 100 ft white pine and at the end of the day my hands would be in so much pain fr those Partner saws and I was in my early 20's. Thanks again.
There is one time to use the angled back cut, and that is the final cut of a dog tooth cut, which is used to fell trees which the weight is in the opposite direction to the direction of fall.
It is a very useful cut to know. Especially if you are in a restricted space.
I could never think of a good reason either. We had stumps with the evidence remaining when we bought this land and I always thought 'why' everytime I saw one.
Excellent video exposing the truth. Thank you.
Through my entire career as a professional Wildland Firefighter (30 years) with formal training and experience bringing me to a Class C (unlimited) faller I never heard about, or saw, a silly angled back cut stump.
Upon retirement and moving to another state I noticed some silly angled back cut stumps while out doing some personal fuel wood cutting.
I could only look at those stumps and declare: "What kind of ignorant Nimrod buffoon would fell a tree in such a way? I still don't know.
Thanks.
I have seen those cuts.
Always thought they looked stupid.
Now I know why, and I have never done one.
Informative. I’ve done it a few times with trees growing in clumps trying to squeeze the saw into one stem at a time without sawing through all the crap and dirt down in the bottom of the wedge or doing plunge cuts. Usually only trees that don’t need wedged.
That slanted back cut is called a farmer cut in the timber falling business. If you try to use a wedge the back will split out. With a horizontal back cut wedging forces are only up and down, not splitting anything. By the way, Hoss, I would tighten the bottom straps of your chaps pull the protection around the front of your shins. Below the knees is where a kickback will usually hit. Nice channel and really experienced advice for folks wanting to learn about logging and forest management!
Looking for somone who new took a bit
I think you hit on the real reason why an angle cut might be the best when you mentioned how the back part might spilt off. I think this would be more of a problem with a small tree than a larger one. The one advantage to the farmer's cut is that it's easier to hold the chainsaw that way when you're cutting low on the trunk
All good, as I've come to expect from your content. Well explained. And greetings from the UK. You kindly expressed interest in different terminology used here in a previous comment, so here's some more.
If I'm felling a big tree with heavy lean and felling with the lean, my felling cut (back cut) may look a bit like a sloping back cut, 'cos I'm doing a dog tooth. To explain: My gob (conventional 'undercuts' or bird's mouth) is going to be very low on the tree. To stop barber chairing (yes in the UK we call that the same thing) I'll bore cut to the hinge and then come back to a strap which will hold the tree up. I'll stand and release the strap by cutting down at around 45 degrees to meet the felling cut (back cut). This leaves a dog's tooth sticking up. But though it looks a bit like your angled back cut it really isn't 'cos the felling cut (back cut) is still horizontal (like it should be). I may do a couple of ears either side and below the hinge to stop tear-out, especially if I want the stump to stand a chance of coppicing.
When I'm doing derelict coppice, I may be in stems that are really adjacent (on the same stool) and there may be several that all need to go different ways to keep from tangling. Not much room and they'll typically be less than twice guide bar width, so not enough room to bore in for the felling cut after the gob has gone in on a stem. Here I might do a sloping felling cut 'cos there is no room to do anything else without cutting into other stems. I'll be felling with lean. No room or need for wedges. Conifers don't coppice. Except yew, sometimes. Yew is weird. The cones look like berries and the timber is hard.
Ever heard of cushion cuts also known as Danish pie cuts?
Good explanation. I have told people that as well and they look at me like I’m stupid. Oh well, some people cannot think logically. I liked that you mentioned most people get away with it :)
Another consideration I have thought of is treating it like a lazy stepped back cut to help in the event of a barber chair, but it would be minimally effective and I think what you have talked about is probably the majority of people’s reasoning.
The angled back cut comes from all the cartoons we watched as kids haha. Drives me insane seeing angled back cuts. The only time I've seen an angled cut done professionally is when they needed to slip the tree down to the ground on a steel hill.
I've never used that angled back cut, and now I know why! Thanks!
What an excellent explanation. You do such a great job of explaining these things.
I was taught to cut trees the right way, and never had the notion of doing an angled back cut until I saw someone doing one. I immediately realized how unsafe it was. The way you showed uneasiness on how to start that cut is exactly how I felt watching this other fella. Luckily the fella didn't hurt himself. Great video on this subject, I too would be embarrassed to leave evidence of this.
I just asked this question on another video. You gave a good answer.
Excellent demonstration, makes perfect sense. Thanks for the safety tip. 👍
A very good explanation. Thank you. I have been guilty of angled back cuts but promise never to do it again....😊
Great instructional on what NOT to do when falling timber.
Very good video. Thanks. The explanation was accurate and easy to understand. I'll stop cutting angled cuts.
I agree with you. I've always done it the second way that you showed. That's the way that I was thought
That’s gotta be the most informative tree vid I’ve watched so far. 👍
Great video. This should be standard shown in public schools, right along with don't cross your straps to secure a vehicle to a trailer, but do cross your safety chains.
Along with a lot of other things they should teach. 😁
Bla ha ha that was pretty funny, I personally have never seen that type of cut before but I see your point about the splitting trunk, good assessment. I will be cutting a Maple tree with a 24" diameter main trunk and it Y's about 6'ft of the ground. The Y branch is about 15"in dia. and cutting down vertically on the release cut will technically be an angle cut. I will do the traditional pie cut first then vertical for the release.
Very nice! If I may add... An angled back cut has less area and width to support the tree if a set back occurs, it is difficult to match the back cut height with the hinge properly (you hinted at that), and it is near impossible to adjust hinge thickness after the top of the angle is established where as a horizontal cut one can nibble more hinge if needed. Thanks for disposing of the evidence 😂I cringe when I see stumps like that!
Great explanation! Makes sense. My father taught me to do the angled back cut 50 years ago. I have only had one problem in all these years but it could have been worst. It cost me a bar but oh well. I heat with wood and cut a lot. I never had luck with the wedges. Apparently because I was cutting wrong. Lol I'll do this from now on.
Great Video!!! I have also wondered why people cut the back cut on an angle!
Thank you for this. I was never shown how to properly fell a tree. I do it often enough to be dangerous. And I’ve done it wrong every time with lucky results.
An excellent video outlining some of the reasons it not wise to make those cringe-worthy angled back cuts. It is refreshing as well to see someone with a proper sized bar (not"blade") on the saw.... tho I must say I prefer the all orange saws myself. 😉
best explanation i've seen on this. many moons ago i was one of those guys.
I see this so often. Recently, my neighbor was felling a medium sized poplar. I watched him notch the tree and it was actually a decent opened face notch. He then proceeded to back cut it with the angled back cut. Also, the back cut was about 8 inches above the notch apex.
Awesome explanation of why & how to do it, appreciate it
The misguided folks that recommend that angled backcut believe it prevents the tree from kicking back. They are wrong...but I have heard it many times. Great explanation of tensile vs. shear strength, thanks for posting this video.
This is a great series of videos. I've been using chainsaws for about fifty years and never had an accident, never a near miss. Always safety first. I haven't seen many people do an angled cut like this but it's stupid for all the reasons to list. These, days, with TH-cam, anyone can learn how to use a chainsaw properly.
This was a great tutorial/ instruction! Very well done thank you!
Solid explanation of Good method, I laugh at what my dad always called "hillbilly cuts"
Great video, I found your channel at the beginning of the board straightening experiment and I've been watching ever since. Your numbers are growing, keep it up and happy holidays!
I would expect a good chance of the stump area to split off the backside. Tree felling can be leathal, not just anybody should do it. I am amazed more people are not dying trying. Great job thanks.
Imagine doing this with a cross cut. I remember getting to do it once years ago, and I don't remember using wedges either. But, the reality is that if you make the notch correctly, you shouldn't need the wedges and barring some freak accident, you know exactly where the tree is going to fall. I don't even know why one would think you'd need to back side angle as if you've cut far enough with the notch, All you're doing is removing the bits furthest away from the notch until the tree falls over on it's own.
I can see that what you are saying makes good sense. I used that angled backcut once when falling a tree up hill, which also had a slight lean toward uphill, my guess, such as it was, was that it might prevent the tree from sliding back off the stump after falling, as a back stop if you will. I also hoped to avoid a barber chair affect.
Well explained, thank you! Also, I loved you in the Ballad of Buster Scruggs!
It drives me crazy to see angled back cuts! You're right, always see it in the firewood cutting zones. Even in my town I noticed a group of trees had been taken down by the town and all of them had angled back cuts. Not sure OSHA would think its ok.
I learned NOT to do an angled back cut, and every time it's see the evidence of one, especially from long time firewood cutters (not that it's tantamount to professional experience) - I would always wonder why... and I think you gave a pretty good illustration of why some may think it's a good idea, when it's actually not and potentially more hazardous. Great video.
Very clear explanation. Excellent video.
As always, a wealth of information!
Good video on explaining the difference in the cuts.
I’ve gotten some logs from some tree services I get logs from that have the slanted angle cut on the logs. And I just wonder what there thinking.
Thanks for sharing
Best explanation I’ve ever seen
Good video. In the UK we are taught to use a dogs tooth angled cut for forward leaners. The angle is just the trigger, it has a bore cut to prevent barber chair and set the hinge. A bore cut then normal back cut is likely better but not taught here.
The angled back cut is from inexperience and thinking it's a safe guard against the tree falling the wrong way as you mentioned. It really clicked with me when someone said if you have to wedge, the angled cut presses the wood apart splitting the stump and a flat cut pushes the wedge straight down into the stump and straight up into the tree so it's impossible to split the stump, assuming the tree is solid.
I’ll be the first to admit it. I did the angled back cut from 12 to 28 years old. Hahaha. I will give credit to the TH-cam channels that have taught bits and pieces of very important information. Great community to watch, learn and enjoy. Thanks!
0:45 i was thought this technique by an old government land worker.
His thinking on it was that the cut was cupping the tree so it wouldn't slip and come back.
I mentioned that the tree will fall at highest hinge and could fall back quite easily. He replied.
He never used the cut on a straight up tree only ever on leaning trees.
For him the angle of the tree was the determining factor.
His face cut was never flat though always slightly angled down.
I heat with wood so I cut alot...lm no lumberjack but enjoy your insight and techniques...I'm envous of some of your cool logging toys I wish I had ! Merry Christmas
Well explained brother!!
We never saw it happen..
Love the channels name! Wilson 💪. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 🖖🖖
You used Shear, Force, Tensile Strength…..
There is an Engineer hidden in there somewhere 😊😊
I'm east coast and I knew this already 😊
😂 that’s great, I’ve only ever seen homeowner Harry’s do that. Never once have I seen a logger or arborist do it.
The justification for an angled back cut that I've seen is when you're trying to make a small tree fall in a direction against its lean. The angled cut lets you fit both a wedge and your saw into the cut at the same time, preventing your saw from being pinched. But I see what you mean about the angled cut encouraging a split.
Back in the seventies Husqvarna had instructions in manual how to tell a tree friend of mine who had no experience told me that was the correct way told him he was nuts
Great video, explained in detail, Thank you. My chainsaw will never do that part I wasn't supposed to see.
Totally agree with your analysis of this stupid back cut. I have never done one and never will. Loved the stashing of the evidence but I would have burned those ends to ash instead of leaving them in the forest!!! 😊
I never heard of an angle back cut. If I ever cut down a tree, I will be sure to NOT do that.
Since in all my 77 years, I have never cut a tree down, I probably never will.
HOWEVER ….. I find your videos informative, entertaining and I love the dry humor.
I've actually never seen that kind of cut. Glad a professional showed me! Professional what though...
Thanks for the tip. And visual display that nobody has seen.(ahem... over 10k views so far though)
Excellent explanation. Thank you
Nearly all of the power company contractors around here make the angled back cut. I asked one of them one time why they do that and he said that it was how they were taught. I've only been cutting full time for 31 years so I don't know much about it, but it's definitely the wrong thing to do.
Very clear, thanks. Ok, I'll stop the angle cutting!