How to Fix Excess Cylinder Endshake on a Smith and Wesson Revolver | Smith & Wesson Revolver Project
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2013
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When the cylinder of a revolver has a lot of front to back play or movement, it’s called end shake. It’s a problem that is easily corrected if you have the right parts. In this video, Larry Potterfield, Founder and CEO of MidwayUSA, demonstrates the process for correcting end shake. After measuring for the exact amount of end shake using a feeler gauge, he begins by removing the yoke retaining screw, the yoke, and the cylinder. Using a padded vise and some snap caps to protect the extractor, he disassembles the cylinder assembly. A Power Custom cylinder end shake bushing is used to take up the slack in the cylinder to yoke fit. These bushings measure only two-thousandths of an inch thick. Once the bushing is lubricated it is dropped into the cylinder and the gun is reassembled and checked for proper fit. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
I truly admire Larry Potterfield, quality man.
Larry Potterfield's a blessing to gun people, indeed.
I wish everyone had the demeanor of Larry Potterfield. The world would be so much better of a place!
Gun Sam Larry is great!
Yes, but then the show “Cops” would be watching them sitting around eating doughnuts.
I just inherited my fathers .357 model 28 and it has excessive end shake. Thanks for the awesome video, it’s much easier to fix then I thought it would be
I could spend untold piles of money on tools after watching Larry's videos.
I just came across this video series and I am so very grateful for these and for all the great things you all do at Midway. Thank you Larry!
Yeah there is a wealth of information in these videos.
Normal barrel \cylinder gap on s&w revolvers is .006. Any less and the cylinder will bind during rotation with a slight bit of dirt. Any more and you'll lose velocity and have abnormal flame cutting off the top frame. Larry Potter field is the man !
Aerial Eggbeater
Some were set as low as .004 from the factory. But as you said, anything less than this is not a good idea because carbon from firing can cause it to bind, and likewise with too much you get flame cutting and lead spitting. IIRC S&W says anything past .010 is out of tolerance.
got 0.013 on a bodyguard 38 0.06 when snap caps loaded
Thanks for that .006 figure. Larry neglected to mention his reading after adding the shims were added. He did however, mention which ones he deposited into the pistol, however, I’d have checked at the end to verify the change for viewers.
thank you very much for these videos. I inherited a 10 shot .22 revolver that is so worn down that there aren't even any manufacturer marks anymore. but I was able to get it to working condition because of your videos.
Thanks Larry, I always wondered how you accomplished that task.
As always Larry, great vids !!
That is a gorgeous Model 67
Tank you Larry, i learn in this vídeo to disassembly cylinder to my hand gun.
I have a .38spl ctg model 1924, and loved care to hand gun that belonged my great-grandfather and my father.
S. Wesson, trade mark "Tanke", and work perfectly today.
I wish I could give this video 1000 likes!
Thank you my old security six has this concern, will repair with this info, thanks midway!
i used to assemble those mitotoyo feeler gauges
Cylinder end shake is very common once a double action revolver has been broken in. Nothing wrong by putting in the shim to solve the problem: most likely it will never occur after this has been done as the steels of the pistol have compressed and hardened from recoil. Of course if your firing low recoil ammunition this may not occur in the first place, My model 29 Had a shim placed after 300 rounds of .44 Magnum rounds and after over 6000 rounds is still tight as a tick.
Thank you for that clarification, I always wondered how often this needed to be done. Makes sense as the compressed steels will work harden and over time simply cannot be compressed any more. After that then the only concern may be frame stretch.
Really good tip!
Awesome video
Great video. Thank you.
Acceptable b/c gap is from .003 to .007 or so. Any tighter & the cylinder will bind from fouling & any larger you will loose velocity.
Nice video.
This man is awesome. I would love to be his apprentice.
Great video👍
Now I can do all my own Smithing when I need. Well Glasses 2
Hello! I wonder what is the heat treatment used in the cylinders of revolvers Smith & Wesson ... thank you!
Great video. Should there be any endshake and what is normal or insignificant??
Wow super informative I love it thank you very much
I had excessive barrel cylinder gap in my model 500 S&W magnum with 6.5 inch half-lug barrel and had to get the barrel set back to .005 as it was .100 at the beginning.
Can you also explain how to reduce - or remove the cylinder end lock when the hammer has dropped. My cylinder locking piece slops in the frame's cut-out, and to my knowledge, no varying sizes locks are manufactured.
My Taurus 44 has about .012 space between forcing cone and cylinder when cylinder is not on lockup. when on lock up it has about .008. I was wandering if this is close to normal.
Also by adding the bearings does it help with cylinder lockup space? Also, this seems kinda crazy, but when you add the bearing spacers it seems like it would put the cylinder farther away from forcing cone.
Thanks for you help.. I can't really find any other videos about fixing the problem of too much space between forcing cone and cylinder.
Is your check for "endshake" the same test as when you lockdown the cylinder and check for the gap between the cylinder and the barrel? In lockdown mode, the hammer is cocked and released but the trigger is held in the "just fired" position. Is there a difference between checking in lockdown mode and in your method?
Finally a repair I can do........lol
Bom dia que bom que encontrei o Senhor aqui no canal eu já seguia você é o melhor armeiro muito bom
I see the shop till I die
Gr8 thx
I'd like to know how that is done on a G.P.100, similar I hope.
but what is the ideal gap?
Depends on the gun manufacturer and the bullets being used. Looks like Larry Potterfield is using ( .010" slop ) - (.006" worth of shims) = (.004" gap) between barrel and cylinder in this example. I just watched a video of a barrel change that set the gap to ,006" for a Dan Wesson revolver. Between .002" and .006" is ideal unless you shoot the non jacketed lead bullets and in that case they go as high as .011" for older guns. For a wide range of bullets .006 is ideal. For mostly jacketed bullets .004". If it is too tight you can have overheating. Colt gaps on the tight side, and S&W on the loose side.
Ideal gap is 0.1mm any way
Thigh gap is the ideal gap
@@Heywoodthepeckerwood Only correct answer I’ve seen.
I've got one of those cheap arm m206 revolver and theirs a lot of cylinder stake. I'm just curious if this technique will work on my model because in the video they're using a Smith and Wesson. Thx love the video every informative
Hello there. I hope someone can help me out here. My Model 17 22LR has problems getting the cylinder to fully rotate into place. So I'll be pulling the hammer to cock it, but all off a sudden the cylinder locks up and I have to help the cylinder to rotate fully by hand. Same thing happens when I try to fire double action. The cylinder locks up about halfway through, and I can't pull the trigger further. Weirdly, this only happens when the cylinder has ammo in it. The cylinder rotates just fine when pulling the hammer without any ammo in the cylinder. The cylinder does have some play back and forwards, and it seems to almost touch the barrel. If I shine I light through I can still see a very tiny space beteeen the cylinder and barrel. Should I take it to a gunsmith?
Larry, I have searched everywhere for one of those yoke reamers, where can I purchase one?
excellent video man. but do you want a little play or none?
Colton K best I remember from gunsmithing school, you want between 0.003"-0.005" of endshake.
What you see back there at the hammer is the "get-together" of the frame and the sideplate. Nothing to worry about ;) On mine, this gap is way bigger than that on this revolver.
adding a shim like this will generate larger gap between the cylinder and barrel. is there any way to shim from the other side? thanks.
This is what I am thinking also. It appears as though he is shimming the cylinder back away from the forcing cone. This means he will have a .006" gap and .004" of shake. On further research I read that you do not want cylinder to barrel contact you always want some gap, in the video Larry states the cylinder contacts the barrel when pushed forward. This shimming will eliminate this contact and lessen the front to back movement.
You are correct. The shims force the cylinder to be pushed back. The other way is to use a "yoke stretcher" available from Brownell's. This device... which looks like a tubing cutter, but doesn't cut...slightly lengthens the yoke and then it is faced off with the yoke reamer to achieve the correct gap. It is preferred to the method shown in this video IF this method will result is excessive cylinder gap when completed. In the video shown, the remaining cylinder gap would be .004" which is actually a bit tight, so the bearings (shims) are usable in this instance. Measure the cylinder endshake. If adding the bearings (shims) to correct the problem result in a gap exceeding .006" then it is best to stretch the yoke and face it off with a reamer.
Endshake is common in S&W revolvers but easy and inexpensive to fix. As a collector, finding a little endshake has saved me hundreds of dollars in negotiating prices and I have fixed it in perhaps a dozen revolvers in my collection. Always nice to be able to negotiate $100 or so off the price and fix it in a few minutes at the work bench.
No matter how you reduce the end shake you cannot reduce the maximum cylinder gap which in this video will remain at .010. All that is being achieved is a minimum gap of .004 which will very quickly increase to .010 when the cylinder recoils against the recoil plate on firing. Reducing end shake only reduces the forward movement. i.e the gap will still be .010 when the cylinder is pushed towards the rear of the gun but will only be .004 when pushed towards the barrel because bearings/shims .006 were fitted to the front of the cylinder. To reduce cylinder gap the barrel needs to be fitted further into the frame which is not easy or cheap.
@@petergraham3495 True, but on S&W revolvers you can use a "yoke stretcher" (Brownell's) This cannot be done on Colt revolvers which require setting the barrel back one turn and facing the barrel and re-cutting the barrel shoulder and forcing cone...NOT easy or cheap.
th-cam.com/video/EdbzzXXNYxI/w-d-xo.html
is it normal for the cylinder to rub on the cylinder stop, right above the trigger?
What type of bearing cylinder is in revolvers? Bearing with small balls? Maybe plain bearing?
Smith and Wesson revolvers by Jerry Kuhnhausen is the bible on gunsmithing the Smiths.
what about SAA revolvers? I have a uberti that is wiggly
I think he reamed the yoke first to cause the .010" gap/shake in the cylinder, then fixed.
an extractor rod is not straight. i mean the bigger of the rod (outer part) when i spin the drum i see a little shaking at the top of the rod. is this very bad, or still safe to shoot? spring extraction and security bolt to lock the drum are still totally functional. Double action possible without any hangers or else, it's really not so bad i just want to be sure before i shoot it on the shooting range.
Anyone have a good set of feeler gauges to recommend?
You put the shim at the front of the cylinder? That moves the cylinder to the rear and increases the cylinder gap. I'd like to decrease my cylinder gap.
How do you correct an approximately 5 degree horizontal rocking of the cylinder on a circa 1910-1920 age Belgian copy of a Colt 1877 'Lightning' revolver in 38 cal.?
new yoke assembly?
Hang it on the wall.
gary K
I would
👏👏👏👏
Does every revolver have a little movement there ?
yes
what if you have a smith k frame and the cylinder gap is .020 /0.50mm , I can just barely fit that number feeler gauge through it . so yea?
Too much. Needs the barrel set back or the endshake bushings. Recommend you take it to a gunsmith.
With a S&W I would recommend a "yoke stretcher" available from Brownell's to lengthen the yoke, then face it off with a reamer to the correct gap. That is too much to be fixed by bearings (shims)
So what is the proper amount of ebd shake ?
so 0.004 is perfect or is it still on the high side?
Isn't the less play you have the more efficient the gunpowder is used?
I know that you need some tolerance for reliability reasons but isn't 0.002 or even 0.001 sufficient?
the ideal gap is the least distance that would allow the loaded cylinder to rotate freely without binding during firing. as the diameter of the bullet is fixed, the only way to fire heavier bullets is with increased length. some efficient powder combinations can allow seating a bullet a little deeper in the case, but this may not be safe for a particular bullet/powder combination. the solution is to then adjust the cylinder gap. for most factory revolvers it is between 0.002 and 0.006, with 0.005 and 0.006 being more common on factory S&W as a "forgiving" gap, and the tighter 0.004 seen on Dan Wesson's and the Colt Python (for example). 0.00215 to 0.00245 is the spec for Korth.
It's the side plate.
It just seems to me the washer used as a shim just sets the cylinder to the most rearward position and subsequently increases cylinder gap causing the revolver to be less accurate. Band aid at best.
@bripro68 , I thought the same thing . I would think the shims should be on the rear end of the cylinder to close up the end play gap .
@@douglasroyce5631if you keep moving the cylinder forward then eventually the headspace gets too big and you have light strikes. Layman's terms the gap at the rear of the cylinder gets too big.
So what you want to do is still set the cylinder as far back as needed using the shims and then measure the new maximum cylinder gap. Hold the cylinder tight to the rear while loaded with snapcaps (NO live ammo) and use the shim gauge to measure the maximum gap between cylinder and forcing cone.
The maximum cylinder gap for most brands of double action revolver is .010" if yours exceeds this after shimming the fix is the barrel will need pulled and the shoulder of the barrel cut down the corresponding thousandths of an inch to subtract from that .010" or larger cylinder gap. Then the barrel is reinstalled.
If you keep pushing the cylinder forward it will increase headspace until you now have a completely different set of problems.
But remember the cylinder is a definite length. AND the opening is finite. So its a tradeoff between endshake and headspace.
I have cylinder drag on my 642-2 j-frame but I can't find anyone who sells shims for that. Can anyone help me?
Yeah, but you now have a .010” flash gap. How do you reduce that?
wrong. .010-.006=.004, he now has a .004 gap
@@heaven-is-real OK I watched again: looked to me like the .002 + .004 spacers moved the cylinder back .006 so it can’t rub the barrel, and that should guarantee .006 flash gap (up from zero). Endshake is now reduced by .006 to .004, which means that flash gap can now “shake” between .006 and .010 if the hand doesn’t hold the cylinder firmly forward (which is much better than zero to .010). What did I miss? I am recalling my first Charter Bulldog which developed endshake and zero flash gap. Those little guns could actually stretch the frame over time,
How are you, thank you for posting this video first of all, and I have a question please... Today I got by mail a new Ruger Redhawk .45ACP/.45LC Mod#5032 and I see a little of cylinder endshake and when I shake the revolver it also has a clicking inside, do you think that is normal for a new revolver or shouldn't have to have any clicking inside at all?
Regards
The clicking/ticking you hear inside the gun when you shake it is the hammer block safety riding in it's channel. Totally normal if all other aspects of the gun are OK.
The clicking is the transfer bar safety. Do a test. Make sure the gun is empty. Cock the hammer and pull the trigger and KEEP the trigger pulled to the rear. Shake the gun. There should be no "clicking". When you release the trigger, the "clicking" will return. If that is the case, perfectly normal. Endshake...there MUST BE some gap or the cylinder would not rotate. With a new gun there should be no problem. You can measure the gap with a feeler gauge. If it is within Ruger specs...no worries.
what is the optimum gap ?
DF: Just enough clearance for the cylinder to revolve freely.
So in the video we have 0.010" end shake, but we only put in a 0.04 and a 0.02 shim, totaling 0.06. Wouldn't you want two 0.004s to get the total closer to 0.010?
That would cause the cylinder to be too tight (only .002" of gap remaining) and would likely result in binding. The resulting gap here (.004") is the minimum recommended, if I remember correctly (.004 to .007 or something like that).
@@sektorf5 Well I just put 0.006 of shim in my .41 Magnum and it now has zero end shake and a 0.010 gap. I do not find any binding on dry firing. We shall see what live fire does. It is not a self defense gun per se, so am not concerned if I have an issue, but if it does bind, I will go to a smaller shim.
If tim blake Nelson played a gunsmith instead of a gunslinger
and for a remington 1858 ?
67-1 ?
if this youtuber was a millenial, the video would have been at least 20 minutes long.
Easy Clips
Yeah, starting with...this is a good gun. It is a tool for...........
Larry is a great guy.
@@farklefuster6876 indeed. i appreciate all old school people with reason and common sense. and cant stand modern days bullshit... look how perfectly he made that video, no second wasted. pure efficiency. like the old black and white instruction videos about stuff i just love watching it.
Easy Clips
Problem is that we are all dying off. By the middle of this century I wonder if there will be an United States. If this country lasts that long it certainly won’t be like it is today.
Boomer posting.
If the gap was originally 10 thousandths, and 2 plus 4 (a total of 6) thousandths were added, the remaining gap would not be, 6 thousandths nor 2 thousandths . . . .
Why aren't you showing fixes for Ruger revolvers?
specific model name?
The problem and solution are common to all S&W revolvers
@@garyK.45ACPI like the proportion, size and aesthetic of the particular gun
@@mekore That is a K Frame Model 67 "Stainless Combat Masterpiece" .38 Special Revolver. 4" barrel.
I didn't understand the use of the dummy rounds in this fix. Maybe I'm a dummy
The dummy rounds keep it from twisting the rod and damaging the extractor or breaking it. That torquing action to loosen the rod will transfer down the length of the rod.
@@jimdent351 thanks
@@RememberPele You can use empty casings as well.
@@jimdent351 👍🏽👍🏽
why won't my Dan Wesson 22 revolver cycle next round?
+Gene Alford I recommend you check out the Dan Wesson forum, it could be a spring problem, grip screw too tight, etc, I'm no expert but there's plenty of people there for the Dan wessons with lots of knowledge.
Thank you.
Gene Alford
Bump
Isn’t that amount of oil on the rod a little too much?
Colt python not on Issue period.
Because Colt uses a different method of attaching the cylinder to the yoke which is less prone to excessive endshake. It is not because it is a Python, it is because it is a Colt. On the other hand, Colts (including Pythons) CAN develop the same problem and it is far more difficult to fix. You have to remove the barrel, re'cut the barrel shoulder, re-thread the barrel and set it back (usually) 1 turn then face off the end of the barrel inside the frame to the correct B/C gap and re-cut the forcing cone. While it is less common, fixing a Colt will cost you a LOT of money and require a skilled and equipped gunsmith. S&W is easy and can be done by a DIY gun enthusiast.
Python is actually very delicate and can have many problems very quickly fyi
Can you do this without calling it "modification" legally?
Thomas Laux Sure why not? You aren’t modifying the gun, you’re fixing it.
Also, why would it ever be deemed illegal?
that revolver has been getting soooo abused :)
4+2=6, not 10.
Larry, Larry.... thats a shim not a baring
What’s going on here!?!?!?
I’ve read all the comments and can’t find one F word.
Fantastic!
why would anyone want endshake?
Too little and the action isn't gonna rotate very smoothly because the gun is excessively tight.
Good way to prevent drips after you reholster your weapon.
He made the job looked way too easy.
If s&w would build it right the first time you wouldn’t need to fix it facts.