Good to see Shirvan partnering with Strategy Stuff (who has TH-cam Channel btw which goes through many things, I would highly recommend). International Relations has many theories surrounding why states do what they do Realism (which draws its heritage from Thucydides), Liberalism, Constructivism, Marxism, International Political Economy, the English School to mention a few. All of these have sub theories or sub-schools which themselves all have merit in their attempt to understand the international realm and why states, international institutions, classes etc do what they do. I would seriorusly suggest to everyone who is intrigued by this video essay to dealve into the realm of International Relations Theory with abandon.
Thanks for the support! I should say that this series is intended to be a 3-parter: 1) Thucydides' Trap; 2) Athens and Sparta's war strategies; and 3) the impact of Athenian/Spartan politics on war policy.
@@CB0408 They really hit the apex of their power and influence with the ascendancy of Colonel Clauswitz von Schtuffz to the role of patriarch. This was before they came to the US and decided to Americanize the name after the start of the War in a bout of Patriotic fervor.
I consider Thucydides the best historian of human history.. His thought and rationality is incredible, millenia ahead of his era! Thank you for your awesome videos!
Considering that he was an Athenian military commander that makes it all the more admirable that he was able to tell the story with such even-handedness.
Don't make assumptions about why this appeals to me. It does, The Hunter x Hunter 2011 Dickriding Association. It makes me feel, at least, like I am doing something.
Excellent and very timely explanation of dangerous geopolitical maneuvering ending in what's known as Thucydides' Trap. Observe the unfolding events on much grander scale as history likes to repeat itself.
@@anwarlara2711 Teaches you that every problem in human life comes from looking always for own good from fear and from glory digging.Which actually means every problem in general comes from huge Ego.Furthermore teaches that life is unfair and democracy=the perfect dictatorship.In my opinion its the book every human on earth must read before death.Its priceless till today.
I subscribed to Strategy Stuff. This was not what I expected here as far as timeline, but it was very well done. In the end it came full circle, and totally makes sense. I really like this, thanks. -Jake
Thanks for talking about this with the current state of the EU. And I’m glad this talked about fate in conflict instead of just demonizing some group of people. But rather, showing how naturally tensions rise and boil over and how it’s all apart of human group interactions.
If possible to sum up Thucydides Trap into three simple words: Fear. Honor. Interest. If you want to mitigate the potential for escalation into war, consider the consequences of how your national policies and decisions might jeopardize an adversary's national sovereignty (fear), national honor (humiliation on the geopolitical stage), and national interests (rarely anything other than economic/finance).
Thucydides' Trap is the 1st and most important analysis of Conflict Progression. It has happened throughout history. It is real, and it can happen again.
Was watching it while expecting to be another Aprils fools vid turned to be best vid i saw in April's First . and i went to Strategy Stuff for the instant sub. ty both.
Here. To refute this video, here's a link to _Thucydides on the Outbreak of War_ Pdf file. tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/43388/1/Jaffe_Seth_N_201211_PhD_thesis.pdf
Today's Κέρκυρα (Corfu) was Κόρκυρα in ancient Greek, that's the form given by Thucydides. So Corcyra fits quite well in English. It would be nonsensical to use the modern name in a description of the politics 2500 years ago. We would also say Assyria instead of Iraq or Carthage instead of Tunisia, if we talk about ancient times.
It should be noted that the Thucs. Trap is a relatively modern realist interpretation of Thucs. History of the Peloponnesian War. There is a lot to be said for the argument that Thucs. was attempting to be scientific in his historical analysis but ending up writing an Aeschylean tragedy, rather than a piece of history.
tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/43388/1/Jaffe_Seth_N_201211_PhD_thesis.pdf Here is a link to the PhD student's university library which has pdf copy stored on his university's library server which is freely accessible. Most other links in a quick Google search are to online re-publishers wanting $30-$80
awesome team up! i will checkout that site, it woul dbe greta if we keep getting these on Caspian, especially like this, Historical stuff by guests and current stuff by Caspian. altho i loved KJ Vid here too.
If you read the "Peloponnesian War" Historical Book you understand that nothing has changed the last 2000 years in relation to wars, peace, cold wars, sanctions, diplomacy, strategy, geopolitical interests etc. You easily understand the modern Era and you stop making questions like "why the USA did that to the A country? why China signed this deal with the B country?" etc etc The Peloponnesian War (Athens League vs Spartan League) was a World War of that Era since almost all the known Greek city-states and Kingdoms participated by supporting one or the other League. Very interesting is the diplomatic correspondence between the city-state of Athens and the island-state of Naxos which the Athenians wanted to join the Athenian League even by force. This Diplomatic correspondence was saved by Thucydides and it is so interesting because you see how a weak city-state speaks to a powerful city-state and tries to persuade it about the immorality of its demands and actions. In the end, Naxos was burned to the ground by Athens because refused to join the Athenian League despite the threats and blackmails..
Strategy Stuff is from Hong Kong and covers a variety of topics but has a soft spot for Chinese history. You should check it out as he does a lot of history that Shirvan doesn't. He is also very neutral.
Thanks for the vid. I'm studying this period and is suffer a lot with quotes and your use of quotes are much more memorable. Any success I have I will be crediting you.
I was 14 when I turned in my first book report on the _History of the Peloponnesian War._ I revisited the War often, but it took another twenty years before I would really master it. If you wanna use his quote about Sparta's fear of Athens rise to power, then you need to contrast that by quoting the King of Sparta prior to the war advising his fellow Spartans against any rush to war, AND trying THREE (3) times to keep the peace! Including going so far as to offer a deal: Athens gets peace with Sparta on the sole condition that Pericles rescind _The Megarian Decree_ Sparta was dragged into war, and would have preferred not to fight Athens if only Athens wasn't being so belligerently hostile against Sparta's most vital strategic allies: 1) _Corinth_ & 2) _Megara._
Thucydides basically states that the Siege of potidea, the megariab decree, and the conflict with Corinth over corcyra and epidamnos were all equivalent “causes” of the Peloponnesian war, because none of them actually caused it. Apparently, according to him, the real reason was the Athenian form of centralized democracy, and it’s use of its “Allies” money and resources for its own purpose (and Plutarch agrees with this, although I understand that plutarchs primary resource for the war was Thucydides)
Kissinger talked about the third cause in his book in terms of ww1. He claims that because each alliance network was terrified of one power switching sides, the most volatile of each alliance was allowed to dictate policy to the rest.
Hmm..this one is very relevant to today, Thucydides' classical realism has had lasting influence on realist scholars and military tacticians to this day. I wrote a paper on whether China and the US are in a Thucydides trap and I concluded that they are not, Thucydides' classical realism (as with all realism) fails to take into account culture, individuals and the opinions of the people more broadly. The big picture approach can explain some things, but often we need to look deeper that just states as the only influential actors.
@@fatalshore5068 -- "They're not" because the Thucydides trap is a myth created by a single professor to hock sales of his book based on tricking the one-time readers into accepting a misreading of a single sentence whose sole purpose was for deflecting blame for starting the war from falling on _Pericles,_ who Thucydides was trying to paint favorably as a hero-type to be admired for symbolically representing the City of Athens at its best.
I need to make a little correction.In the beginning you mention Corcyra on modern day Albania. The city of Corcyra (Κέρκυρα in Greek,modern day Corfu in english) was never in Albanian jurisdiction. After the treaty of London 1864 and not before a very long period of many and different states of political existence and patronage (along with the other Ionian islands) was unified with the rest of the newborn greek state. Cheers and keep up the good work!!
"Thucydides Trap" is a non Thucydidean concept used to inappropriately draw parallels to modern politics by conflating growth in imperial hegemony with growth in military power. Otherwise great video, but I would seriously examine your sources for these concepts before promulgating them.
THANK YOU!!! There's a recent PhD thesis I found online with a lot of great citations refuting pretty much this entire video. _Thucydides on the Outbreak of War.pdf_ by Seth Jaffe
The Caspian trap:is a posting content on Caspian report without Shirvans voice raises the chances of third party comments regarding this matter. Nonetheless it was interesting content, thank you (and all other non Shirvan voices, even if his voice is more popular)!
Well the two know that a Trap exists (Xi Jinping mentioned it in a speech), so one assumes that they are consciously trying to avoid a repeat of history. BUT as seen in the vid, 1) hostile interpretations of each other's intentions and 2) third-party dynamics have a major role in driving the Trap. 1) is fairly evident nowadays esp. from the US side (China has always feared regime change from the US). For 2) - I've always thought that the attitude of other East Asia/Southeast Asia countries were important to the China-US rivalry, given their geostrategic importance (1st Island Chains and whatnot). There was a quote from an SEA leader going like 'We like you [the US], but don't make us choose between you and China'. Well now under a more assertive China, they're beginning to have to choose - and the resulting obligations and impact on the US/Chinese position in East Asia could well escalate the Trap.
I was thinking of the 'Balkan Inception Scenario' in WWI, which is a new-revisionist history by Christopher Clark. Basically, we need to stop thinking about the Entente or Triple Alliance as ironclad alliances - France feared Russian defection, France could have adopted an anti-British understanding with Germany in 1898, and even the Germans feared Austria-Hungary could go over to the Entente. Italy, of course, actually defected in WWI. Clark argues that by increasing confrontation in the Balkans, BIS (NOT an actual policy but a conceptual structure) would cement relations between allies and drive wedges between the camps. So you can see how 'third party dynamics', in this case the fear of defection, could have escalated the Trap.
@@StrategyStuff Since you mentioned Serbia, and its role, alongside France and Vienna-Budapest empire, I feel the need to clarify some things. The third parties in the Peloponnesian War, Corcyra and Corinth, deliberately pressured conflicting sides - Athens and Sparta, to engage, for their interests, in that war. The parallel with WW1 is inadequate since the Berlin - Vienna alliance was seeking to expand, primarily into east, but also in the south and southeast Europe (Drang nach Osten) and conflict with Serbia was inevitable as it was used as pretext for their imperial gains. So, to make it slightly clear, junior partners in the Peloponnesian League (led by Sparta) and the Delian League (led by Athens) "used" senior partners to start the war, while the Central Powers were seeking a way to make their expansion real, at the cost of junior countries in Europe, and it was opposed by the Entente which was the natural counter-weight. So, in a way, comparing Serbia with Corcyra and/or Corinth is mismatch because the Greek city states pushed their agenda while the Serbia was used to start massive war.
@@trafo60 Lol don't let my 4 question marks intimidate you, I'm not angry at all, I'm just asking for an explanation. That seems like a very flawed analysis if you take into account most of the previous crises, especially the 1870 war. I hope his is better than yours my friend :) Though to be fair I can't really imagine a plausible explanation to consider France as a 3rd party in this war.
You know what you should do, Shirvan. You should have ordinary fans host and submit their own reports on the channel. You can personally vet them and see if they're good for your standards. Will probably help minimize your workload and you can give a prize for the best report or whatever. Cash or unique merchandise.
Correction: What you call *KerkAIra* is actually ΚΈΡΚΥΡΑ. In Greece. "Albania " was a 20th century CREATION by the Italians, for same reasons Belgium was Created by France.
Correction of your correction: Today's Κέρκυρα (Corfu) was Κόρκυρα in ancient Greek, that's the form given by Thucydides. And while Corcyra is indeed not in today's Albania, he never said it would be. The passage in the video is, that Corcyra and Korinth have a dispute ABOUT a peripheral city in modern day Albania. He doesn't mention the name of that city, but it's the ancient Epidamnos, today's Durrës in today's Albania.
Is there a good set of maps, like the one in the video - for major ancient wars - Greco-Persian, Peloponnesian, Punic, Roman Civil wars, etc.? I have the full Landmark set of classics but a nice stand alone map would be helpful.
One dude fell in love with ancient history reading about Greek part and making similarities of this to modern day.Not interesting,I can make this comparison more realistic between Gokturks and China.
The Persians were a huge factor in the Peloponnesian War. Why else did Athens invade Persian Egypt? Their defeat in Memphis and Cyprus at the hands of the Persians gave Sparta that breathing room to counter Athens
Monarch socialist spartan vs Athens democracy was clashing politically and socially . I've always wondered why Athens wasnt able to bring massive armys with there size they must've had more manpower and failed to recruit . It seeks odd that losing Athens actually lost the war .they had the abilty to fight from the islands out maneuvering there troops by sea.
xxAnaconta Kerkyra (known as Corfu today / located in the Ionian Sea) was a colony of Corinth. After many years Kerkyra became a strong island-state and declared independence from Corinth. Athens supported Kerkyra's independence and Corinth was furious for the diplomatic support of Athens to Kerkyra. Epidamnos was a colony of Kerkyra which also became stronger through time. A civil war started in Epidamnos between the Democrats and the Aristocrats and the authorities of Epidamnos asked the help of Corinthos and not of Kerkyra.
@@mariosathens1 Exactly, Kerkyra refused to help and since Corinth founded Kerkira, Corinth was technically also responsible to protect Epidamnos ( at least that's how their envoy put it) and by Corinth puting Epidamnos under it's influence is what led to hostilities between Corinth and Kerkyra which led to Kerkyra asking for Athens help.
Watching this in 2022 makes me wonder if Corcyra is the new Ukraine given its insistence on joining the EU which would tip the balance of power, the West the new Athens(Democracy), and Sparta the new Russia/China?
Good to see Shirvan partnering with Strategy Stuff (who has TH-cam Channel btw which goes through many things, I would highly recommend). International Relations has many theories surrounding why states do what they do Realism (which draws its heritage from Thucydides), Liberalism, Constructivism, Marxism, International Political Economy, the English School to mention a few.
All of these have sub theories or sub-schools which themselves all have merit in their attempt to understand the international realm and why states, international institutions, classes etc do what they do. I would seriorusly suggest to everyone who is intrigued by this video essay to dealve into the realm of International Relations Theory with abandon.
Thanks for the support! I should say that this series is intended to be a 3-parter: 1) Thucydides' Trap; 2) Athens and Sparta's war strategies; and 3) the impact of Athenian/Spartan politics on war policy.
ok
@@StrategyStuff great video! I really liked your style and the topic. I hope you continue this series I would love to see part 2 and 3.
"my name is strategy stuff"
Your parents are monsters
Or geniuses?
Or just happy members of the Stuff family
Better name than major major from novel of paragraf 22
@@CB0408 They really hit the apex of their power and influence with the ascendancy of Colonel Clauswitz von Schtuffz to the role of patriarch. This was before they came to the US and decided to Americanize the name after the start of the War in a bout of Patriotic fervor.
@@CB0408 HAHAHAHAHA omg
I consider Thucydides the best historian of human history.. His thought and rationality is incredible, millenia ahead of his era!
Thank you for your awesome videos!
Read Polybius.He was even better
Ibn Khaldun
Considering that he was an Athenian military commander that makes it all the more admirable that he was able to tell the story with such even-handedness.
Woah another pleasantly unexpected team up!!
Don't make assumptions about why this appeals to me. It does, The Hunter x Hunter 2011 Dickriding Association. It makes me feel, at least, like I am doing something.
@@coreycox2345 ?
I'm still waiting for new hunter x hunter season:( I love this anime
Excellent and very timely explanation of dangerous geopolitical maneuvering ending in what's known as Thucydides' Trap. Observe the unfolding events on much grander scale as history likes to repeat itself.
Ah yes, Strategy Stuff. Great long form videos with a focus history and economics. Good to see him being featured here!
Thanks Shirvan and Strategy Stuff, this is a real treat.
Strategy Stuff X Caspian Report? It must still be April 1st, this is too good to be true~
Everyone should read the History of the Peloponnesian War.
Dan 7 why?
@@anwarlara2711 Teaches you that every problem in human life comes from looking always for own good from fear and from glory digging.Which actually means every problem in general comes from huge Ego.Furthermore teaches that life is unfair and democracy=the perfect dictatorship.In my opinion its the book every human on earth must read before death.Its priceless till today.
I subscribed to Strategy Stuff. This was not what I expected here as far as timeline, but it was very well done. In the end it came full circle, and totally makes sense. I really like this, thanks.
-Jake
Thanks for talking about this with the current state of the EU.
And I’m glad this talked about fate in conflict instead of just demonizing some group of people. But rather, showing how naturally tensions rise and boil over and how it’s all apart of human group interactions.
A very interesting review of a topic that is probably less known to many. Keep it up.
Caspian Report & Strategy Stuff in 1 video? Thank you so, so much. ❤
I read the book : The Peloponnesian War by Donald Kagan. If anyone would love read more about this i recommend reading this book.
Andreas Gonatas A fabulous lecture series on Greek history by Donald Kagan is available on Yale free lectures you tube.
If possible to sum up Thucydides Trap into three simple words: Fear. Honor. Interest. If you want to mitigate the potential for escalation into war, consider the consequences of how your national policies and decisions might jeopardize an adversary's national sovereignty (fear), national honor (humiliation on the geopolitical stage), and national interests (rarely anything other than economic/finance).
Thucydides' Trap is the 1st and most important analysis of Conflict Progression. It has happened throughout history. It is real, and it can happen again.
Was watching it while expecting to be another Aprils fools vid turned to be best vid i saw in April's First . and i went to Strategy Stuff for the instant sub. ty both.
Here. To refute this video, here's a link to _Thucydides on the Outbreak of War_ Pdf file. tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/43388/1/Jaffe_Seth_N_201211_PhD_thesis.pdf
This is the greatest crossover episode ever
Excellent to see more from StrategyStuff. Keep up the good work.
It would ve been better had he first explained the geography of the region in brief
Wikipedia is your friend.
Crossover of the Year! 🔥
I know this voice! It's strategy stuff. Nice that you're giving him the up opportunity to come on your channel!
I do wish I learned of this channel sooner. As a Political Science Major, this is going to educate me greatly.
Finally, Strategy Stuff and Caspian Report together
the power duo
Excellent! I'm a fan of both channels. this is top tier content!
I’ve got an uncle named Thucydides, son of Aristeides; he’s not a General turned historian - he’s a butcher turned tavern keeper...
Me , a greek , trying to understand what a corcyra is
Today's Κέρκυρα (Corfu) was Κόρκυρα in ancient Greek, that's the form given by Thucydides. So Corcyra fits quite well in English. It would be nonsensical to use the modern name in a description of the politics 2500 years ago. We would also say Assyria instead of Iraq or Carthage instead of Tunisia, if we talk about ancient times.
Really really interesting ... ty very much good sir. I can't await part 2.
This was a great guest post.
Two of my most faviorite channels
It should be noted that the Thucs. Trap is a relatively modern realist interpretation of Thucs. History of the Peloponnesian War. There is a lot to be said for the argument that Thucs. was attempting to be scientific in his historical analysis but ending up writing an Aeschylean tragedy, rather than a piece of history.
Excellent work and narration on the part of Strategy Stuff. Everyone should definitely give his channel a look. Great content!
Not something I expected when I clicked on this video, but I was pleasantly suprised! I’ll be sure to check out Stratedgy Stuff!
Really looking forward to the second part.
It's on Strategy Stuff's Channel along with parts 3-5
1:25 where did you get such a glorious map?
This is the best explanation about Thucydides trap, I've ever heard.
There's a good PhD thesis you can easily find free if you google: _Thucydides on the Outbreak of War.pdf_ written by Seth Jaffe
@@czdaniel1 I'll see that. Thanks
tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/43388/1/Jaffe_Seth_N_201211_PhD_thesis.pdf
Here is a link to the PhD student's university library which has pdf copy stored on his university's library server which is freely accessible. Most other links in a quick Google search are to online re-publishers wanting $30-$80
Now its USA vs China
Great episode
Wait who is Athens and who is Sparta?
Jason Muniz Athens = china USA = Sparta but it’s bit funny because their political ideologies are switched
@@zakaryloreto6526 but America has a bigger navy and china has a bigger land force.
Liberal bias
China has a secret weapon, though: Mother Russia!
Great... Another Historical series...!!!
awesome team up! i will checkout that site, it woul dbe greta if we keep getting these on Caspian, especially like this, Historical stuff by guests and current stuff by Caspian. altho i loved KJ Vid here too.
STRATEGY STUFF IS TOP TIER CHANNEL.
No
@@TheReaper569 shut up bitch
Absolutely brilliant video!
Awesome collab guys!
Great narration, good analysis, awesome topic = great content. You got my like !
If you read the "Peloponnesian War" Historical Book you understand that nothing has changed the last 2000 years in relation to wars, peace, cold wars, sanctions, diplomacy, strategy, geopolitical interests etc. You easily understand the modern Era and you stop making questions like "why the USA did that to the A country? why China signed this deal with the B country?" etc etc
The Peloponnesian War (Athens League vs Spartan League) was a World War of that Era since almost all the known Greek city-states and Kingdoms participated by supporting one or the other League.
Very interesting is the diplomatic correspondence between the city-state of Athens and the island-state of Naxos which the Athenians wanted to join the Athenian League even by force. This Diplomatic correspondence was saved by Thucydides and it is so interesting because you see how a weak city-state speaks to a powerful city-state and tries to persuade it about the immorality of its demands and actions. In the end, Naxos was burned to the ground by Athens because refused to join the Athenian League despite the threats and blackmails..
Great report guys
Strategy Stuff is from Hong Kong and covers a variety of topics but has a soft spot for Chinese history. You should check it out as he does a lot of history that Shirvan doesn't. He is also very neutral.
Excellent video! thx caspian strategystuff
Strategy Stuff is an absolute unit, you guys should all check out his videos, you won't be disappointed.
The intro states this was a “War Like No Other”. Coincidentally, that’s the title of Victor Davis Hanson’s book on the subject, published in 2004.
Thanks for the vid. I'm studying this period and is suffer a lot with quotes and your use of quotes are much more memorable. Any success I have I will be crediting you.
I was 14 when I turned in my first book report on the _History of the Peloponnesian War._ I revisited the War often, but it took another twenty years before I would really master it. If you wanna use his quote about Sparta's fear of Athens rise to power, then you need to contrast that by quoting the King of Sparta prior to the war advising his fellow Spartans against any rush to war, AND trying THREE (3) times to keep the peace! Including going so far as to offer a deal: Athens gets peace with Sparta on the sole condition that Pericles rescind _The Megarian Decree_
Sparta was dragged into war, and would have preferred not to fight Athens if only Athens wasn't being so belligerently hostile against Sparta's most vital strategic allies: 1) _Corinth_ & 2) _Megara._
Love this video and already subbed to this guy
Thucydides basically states that the Siege of potidea, the megariab decree, and the conflict with Corinth over corcyra and epidamnos were all equivalent “causes” of the Peloponnesian war, because none of them actually caused it. Apparently, according to him, the real reason was the Athenian form of centralized democracy, and it’s use of its “Allies” money and resources for its own purpose (and Plutarch agrees with this, although I understand that plutarchs primary resource for the war was Thucydides)
Kissinger talked about the third cause in his book in terms of ww1. He claims that because each alliance network was terrified of one power switching sides, the most volatile of each alliance was allowed to dictate policy to the rest.
Good stuff. Well done.
lmao nice. Dunno if this is an april fools joke but this is high quality content. Love the vids keep it up!
Nope, it's part of the real history of Greek city-states.
oooh....more of videos like these please! Geopolitics of the Mumluks/Mongols, Sengoku period, the Chinese Three Kingdoms period,.....so many.
Hmm..this one is very relevant to today, Thucydides' classical realism has had lasting influence on realist scholars and military tacticians to this day. I wrote a paper on whether China and the US are in a Thucydides trap and I concluded that they are not, Thucydides' classical realism (as with all realism) fails to take into account culture, individuals and the opinions of the people more broadly. The big picture approach can explain some things, but often we need to look deeper that just states as the only influential actors.
@@fatalshore5068 -- "They're not" because the Thucydides trap is a myth created by a single professor to hock sales of his book based on tricking the one-time readers into accepting a misreading of a single sentence whose sole purpose was for deflecting blame for starting the war from falling on _Pericles,_ who Thucydides was trying to paint favorably as a hero-type to be admired for symbolically representing the City of Athens at its best.
@@czdaniel1 Did you watch the video?
Looking forward to next parts
They are on Strategy Stuff's Channel along with parts 3-5
Everybody gangsta until they have to read Thucydides in the original.
I saw your vid at your channel long ago, original and great stuff
Great presentation!
Great channel - just subscribed.
Thanks for sharing truly Interesting
Love both channels btw
Nice collaboration here
_"... and that made the war inevitable."_
Awesome content.
I love u r channel so much!!!
Perfect content 👌
I am a simple man. I see Peloponnesian War, I upvote.
The most epic crossover
I need to make a little correction.In the beginning you mention Corcyra on modern day Albania.
The city of Corcyra (Κέρκυρα in Greek,modern day Corfu in english) was never in Albanian jurisdiction.
After the treaty of London 1864 and not before a very long period of many and different states of political existence and patronage (along with the other Ionian islands) was unified with the rest of the newborn greek state. Cheers and keep up the good work!!
"Thucydides Trap" is a non Thucydidean concept used to inappropriately draw parallels to modern politics by conflating growth in imperial hegemony with growth in military power.
Otherwise great video, but I would seriously examine your sources for these concepts before promulgating them.
THANK YOU!!!
There's a recent PhD thesis I found online with a lot of great citations refuting pretty much this entire video. _Thucydides on the Outbreak of War.pdf_ by Seth Jaffe
The Caspian trap:is a posting content on Caspian report without Shirvans voice raises the chances of third party comments regarding this matter. Nonetheless it was interesting content, thank you (and all other non Shirvan voices, even if his voice is more popular)!
Nice new voice over
would a potential China-US rivalry take similar dynamics?
Well the two know that a Trap exists (Xi Jinping mentioned it in a speech), so one assumes that they are consciously trying to avoid a repeat of history. BUT as seen in the vid, 1) hostile interpretations of each other's intentions and 2) third-party dynamics have a major role in driving the Trap. 1) is fairly evident nowadays esp. from the US side (China has always feared regime change from the US).
For 2) - I've always thought that the attitude of other East Asia/Southeast Asia countries were important to the China-US rivalry, given their geostrategic importance (1st Island Chains and whatnot). There was a quote from an SEA leader going like 'We like you [the US], but don't make us choose between you and China'. Well now under a more assertive China, they're beginning to have to choose - and the resulting obligations and impact on the US/Chinese position in East Asia could well escalate the Trap.
left a like but i refuse to watch without shirvan's sexy voice
How can it be sexy if it's only verbal? Seem like a sexyst to me
Shame.
This was one of the most insightful videos.
Better than those "Poland is still worried about being invaded by Russia" ones.
its also the mic quality
Dont worry it's just a collab, he isnt taking over for Shirvan. It really is worth the watch!
I literally just had an assignment on this omg. Where were you Caspian report
Please (13:19) do explain what do you mean by "the roles of Serbia, Austro-Hungary and France in WW1"?
I was thinking of the 'Balkan Inception Scenario' in WWI, which is a new-revisionist history by Christopher Clark. Basically, we need to stop thinking about the Entente or Triple Alliance as ironclad alliances - France feared Russian defection, France could have adopted an anti-British understanding with Germany in 1898, and even the Germans feared Austria-Hungary could go over to the Entente. Italy, of course, actually defected in WWI.
Clark argues that by increasing confrontation in the Balkans, BIS (NOT an actual policy but a conceptual structure) would cement relations between allies and drive wedges between the camps. So you can see how 'third party dynamics', in this case the fear of defection, could have escalated the Trap.
@@StrategyStuff Since you mentioned Serbia, and its role, alongside France and Vienna-Budapest empire, I feel the need to clarify some things. The third parties in the Peloponnesian War, Corcyra and Corinth, deliberately pressured conflicting sides - Athens and Sparta, to engage, for their interests, in that war. The parallel with WW1 is inadequate since the Berlin - Vienna alliance was seeking to expand, primarily into east, but also in the south and southeast Europe (Drang nach Osten) and conflict with Serbia was inevitable as it was used as pretext for their imperial gains. So, to make it slightly clear, junior partners in the Peloponnesian League (led by Sparta) and the Delian League (led by Athens) "used" senior partners to start the war, while the Central Powers were seeking a way to make their expansion real, at the cost of junior countries in Europe, and it was opposed by the Entente which was the natural counter-weight. So, in a way, comparing Serbia with Corcyra and/or Corinth is mismatch because the Greek city states pushed their agenda while the Serbia was used to start massive war.
Cheers strategy stuff
Thanks for promoting Strategy Stuff. He has high IQ
According to Thucydedes men are moved by three "ideas" the first is emotions the second is ambition and the third is fear.
I would use different words.
People are motivated by a combination of three elements:
1) Personal Self-Interest,
2) Personal Sense of Honor,
3) Fear
You cite France as a 3rd party influence in WW1 (13:20)??? Please explain how France was a 3rd party in this conflict
Calm down angry Frenchman, he sees WW1 mainly as a conflict between a rising Germany and the then hegemon of the UK
@@trafo60 Lol don't let my 4 question marks intimidate you, I'm not angry at all, I'm just asking for an explanation. That seems like a very flawed analysis if you take into account most of the previous crises, especially the 1870 war. I hope his is better than yours my friend :) Though to be fair I can't really imagine a plausible explanation to consider France as a 3rd party in this war.
Heavy
I love this
Why was this guy not in my recommendations? TH-cam algorithm smh
Very good.
Hello lads, good morning from Greece.
Thucydides' Trap is that one ascendant hegemonic power threatens the current hegemonic power which leads to inevitable conflict?
Some people need a common enemy to make peace.
You know what you should do, Shirvan. You should have ordinary fans host and submit their own reports on the channel. You can personally vet them and see if they're good for your standards. Will probably help minimize your workload and you can give a prize for the best report or whatever. Cash or unique merchandise.
Love it
Correction: What you call *KerkAIra* is actually ΚΈΡΚΥΡΑ. In Greece. "Albania " was a 20th century CREATION by the Italians, for same reasons Belgium was Created by France.
Correction of your correction: Today's Κέρκυρα (Corfu) was Κόρκυρα in ancient Greek, that's the form given by Thucydides.
And while Corcyra is indeed not in today's Albania, he never said it would be. The passage in the video is, that Corcyra and Korinth have a dispute ABOUT a peripheral city in modern day Albania. He doesn't mention the name of that city, but it's the ancient Epidamnos, today's Durrës in today's Albania.
Is there a good set of maps, like the one in the video - for major ancient wars - Greco-Persian, Peloponnesian, Punic, Roman Civil wars, etc.?
I have the full Landmark set of classics but a nice stand alone map would be helpful.
YES.
One dude fell in love with ancient history reading about Greek part and making similarities of this to modern day.Not interesting,I can make this comparison more realistic between Gokturks and China.
oh wow it's sargon
The crossover deepens
The Persians were a huge factor in the Peloponnesian War. Why else did Athens invade Persian Egypt? Their defeat in Memphis and Cyprus at the hands of the Persians gave Sparta that breathing room to counter Athens
HOLY SHIT I WAS JUST WATCHING URE VIDEO ON HALFORD MACKINDER!!!
Monarch socialist spartan vs Athens democracy was clashing politically and socially .
I've always wondered why Athens wasnt able to bring massive armys with there size they must've had more manpower and failed to recruit .
It seeks odd that losing Athens actually lost the war .they had the abilty to fight from the islands out maneuvering there troops by sea.
And what did Corinth and Corcyra fight over you may ask? A damn colony in the Balkans named Epidamnus.
xxAnaconta
Kerkyra (known as Corfu today / located in the Ionian Sea) was a colony of Corinth. After many years Kerkyra became a strong island-state and declared independence from Corinth. Athens supported Kerkyra's independence and Corinth was furious for the diplomatic support of Athens to Kerkyra.
Epidamnos was a colony of Kerkyra which also became stronger through time. A civil war started in Epidamnos between the Democrats and the Aristocrats and the authorities of Epidamnos asked the help of Corinthos and not of Kerkyra.
@@mariosathens1 Exactly, Kerkyra refused to help and since Corinth founded Kerkira, Corinth was technically also responsible to protect Epidamnos ( at least that's how their envoy put it) and by Corinth puting Epidamnos under it's influence is what led to hostilities between Corinth and Kerkyra which led to Kerkyra asking for Athens help.
Where is the 2nd part....pls tell...i cant find it on the caspian report channel
On Strategy Stuff's Channel along with parts 3-5
I'm curious, did you watch Indonesia presidential candidate debate last saturday?
Watching this in 2022 makes me wonder if Corcyra is the new Ukraine given its insistence on joining the EU which would tip the balance of power, the West the new Athens(Democracy), and Sparta the new Russia/China?