Arduin Bloody Arduin - It Made me Rethink Dungeons and Dragons
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- The Arduin Grimoire Trilogy by David Hargrave was a game changer for many Dungeons and Dragons players in the late 1970s. In this video, Jim explains how it impacted his game.
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My Uncle Dave was a brilliant writer and a very kind man. Knowing his works are still being appreciated would warm Mr.Crossworlder's heart. I miss you and love you Uncle Dave. RIP
His works and creative genius have long been appreciated by myself and the people I've played with. They truly did change the way I approach gaming and inspired me to develop my own ideas and expand my imagination beyond the norm. We should all be so lucky to leave such a legacy. Thanks for commenting.
Really cool to hear from a relative of his. I learned about him some time back and was really taken by the Arduin books. I think they really show a passion for D&D and they were, even if they have a bit of an infamous reputation, influential for the game. They might be a bit silly or a bit crass at times, but everything I read in them seemed Real, the kind of stuff that had obviously come from Dave's own games, and I think they show his passion for the subject. It wasn't someone's armchair materials, it was the raw and Real stuff that was clearly enjoyed in actual play. That is, I think, a really important quality that I always enjoy seeing in these materials.
I also found David Hargrave's personal history really intresting. He sounds like he was a real character.
He was brilliant. TSR should have hired him.
@@theoldwarlock Setting aside technical innovations in the rules, the mix of high tech with unhinged fantasy in his dungeon modules and bestiary it feel like a Heavy Metal magazine RPG compared to D&D's stoner Tolkien fan vibe. BTW at MIT we called "fumble" KLUTZ
I played a phraint for three years. Dave ruled. Never forgot his hell worlds. Can you imagine a film of his world? Seek out his books. They are inspiring.
A film of his world would be terrifyingly fantastic!
Not for the phraint of hearted.
I loved my phraints. I loved my half-pixie half storm giant courtesan as well. In the 70s people either loved arduin or hated it. I loved it. Used much of it.
best three for time period supplements Judges Guild, Rolemaster, and Arduin.
I'm not familiar with Rolemaster. Gonna have to look that up. Thanks for letting me know about it.
I started playing D&D in 1977. When I went to high school in San Diego, my group was using Arduin as supplements for the game, and we had a blast. Later, when I moved the Bay Area after getting out of the Air Force, I got to play with some of the original Arduin players: Peter and Carolyn Savoy, Mark Schynert, and Mike Nelson, who'd been Dave's roommate. The storytelling in Arduin was epic. It's a pity I never got to meet Dave Hargrave himself. He left quite the legacy.
Even playing with some of the original players would have been a fantastic experience. We're envious.
@@theoldwarlock I played with Erol Otus, once. Really nice guy.
@@MisterGrooves You're killin' me.
I must say, that's a nice video you made on my old friend. As great as the AG's were, they were an appetizer to the grand feast when playing with the man himself. Dave was a master GM and his Arduin campaign ( he had three all together) was just fantastic, and the AG's only show a tiny portion of the world he created and his incredible imagination.
@Michael Johnson No need to shout Michael, I can hear you quite well. ;-)
As for the WBOK, Monty put all his heart into it.
@Michael Johnson Ok, I didn't know you had an eye condition. As for my age--I'm not that old buddy! lol
@Michael Johnson Dave was an innovator of extraordinary heights. There are many, many things he came up with, that to this day, nobody has done. I'm hopeful some of these things will come to light for other gamers to enjoy.
Thank you for the compliment. I can only imagine what it was like to play with Mr. Hargrave. I'm envious that you were able to do so - I truly am a great admirer of his creativity and the impact he had on my gaming was tremendous. Any insight you might be able to share about gaming with Dave would be greatly appreciated - as much for my own knowledge as for our channel. If you have any stories to tell, or a direction to point me in that would lead to lesser-known works by the man, please contact me via the email link/form on our website at theoldwarlock.com. Again, thank you for commenting. It made my day.
@@theoldwarlock No problem. Dave was one of the best, not just as a GM, but simply was a really talented individual and playing with him made you an even better gamer. One major thing that always stood out playing with Dave was how "connected" he was with his world and the way he knew the setting like the back of his hand, even when he was making stuff up at that very moment. He told me once out of all the years he was running the campaign, maybe 20% of Arduin was discovered by his players and less than 5% of the world itself.
If you don't already know, check out his Call of Cthulhu scenarios and the zine he published for A&E called the Arduin Chronicles. Also, Emperors Choice is back in business, dedicating to publishing the old books, and has some big surprises in the works.
Played this alot in the early 80's. Our "DM" would take that crit/fumble chart and use it for his D&D sessions...we all loved/hated it lol
That seems to be a common theme from people who encountered it back in the day. Definitely a love/hate thing.
Oh my god its some one mentions aruduin....I love aruduin
I don't know what happened to my copy or why so few people know about Dave Hargrave. arduin was as important to my early rpg days as any d&d product
Still playing AD&D since 1984 we tend to like it because of it fast pace so 1 is a miss 20 double damage.
Love your channel guys.
Thanks Carl. For years we did a d6 on a d20. 1-4 was double damage, 5 was triple, and 6 was and instant kill. It could work well and made for some fun, last-minute desperation kills that we're still talking about 30 years on.
Reading the comments a good while after the video was published, it's really cool to see many commenters fondly remembering the man himself. I only recently became aware of the Arduin materials and Hargrave himself, but it really feels like he was a passionate gamer and left people with an unforgettable impression.
That's definitely what it seems like! He left quite the impact.
Started D&D in 1979 and knew about Arduin but never played it. My main recollection about it was that it had "wandering dungeons". :-)
Loved incorporating Arduin into our campaign back in the day. Had way more flavor than just traditional chainmail & TSR rules. Ended up giving all my stuff to a friend who dm'd after got married & moved away which was a mistake. But still remember a lot of the material & art. Hopefully books got some good use. Modules where particularly hard to come by but think liked them best cause hardly anyone else had them so players where suprised (couldn't read up on them). Like you said in another of your videos character death was just one stupid mistake away & unknown danger kept them on their toes to figure out how to overcome a challenge with the least amount of physical danger as possible from having to resort to violence.
First - sorry you gave away your books, Larry. Second - Arduin did just that - provided more flavor - in big helpings. I hope you're still playing!
Is Greg Stafford, creator of Runequest/Pendragon/etc, the person referenced in Stafford's Starbridge?
Yes, he is. Don't quote me on this, but from what I can gather, Stafford and Hargrave had a bit of a falling out over a publishing contract between Hargrave and Stafford's Chaosium publishing company. Hargrave named the Starbridge after Stafford after believing that Stafford had let him fall through on their deal. The mage that casts Stafford's Starbridge can choose to let people fall through the bridge.
I love the genuine dynamic between you two in all your videos. Wish I had this kind of relationship! Please keep making videos, it's a joy to learn and watch you guys share what you love :D
Thank you so much Tom!!!
@@theoldwarlock ofc! Also, a topic idea for you guys might be reviewing/discussing the basic and expert set from 1984. I play Basic Fantasy, which is really close to that ruleset and I think it'd be cool to get your insights on B/X vs Advanced :)
@@bizzy5439 Thanks, Tom. We might be going over Holmes Basic vs ADD soon but that 84 set might be in there too.
What a blast from the past! I still have copies if all 3 books as well as 2 of the adventure modules (Caliban ruled!). Player reaction to being caught in the crossfire between a Battle Spider and Scorpoon was epic.
Edit to add - still have old character sheets for a Star Mage (Half Elf) and Techno (Hobbit - *not* Halfling).
It's always good to hear when people keep their old books around. KYSAF!
I can hardly keep up with all the info I'm gleaning from your channel. These are gems, pure and simple.
Thanks, MG! We're glad you like what we have on offer.
Good video - emperors choice owns the IP now and reprinted them and are active again.
If you want stuff that approaches Arduin in entertainment value (but not like Arduin, just damn good stuff) try:
Deep Carbon Observatory - Patrick Stuart
Slumbering Ursine Dunes, Mysty Isles of the Eld - Hill Cantons
Dark of Hot Springs Island
Thanks so much for your comment! We love recommendations for new stuff and we'll have to try and check them out soon!! Keep your sword arm free!
Love seeing cool artifacts like this that people don’t talk about, great video guys
Thanks so much John!
Hi Warlock! First thing first: the new opening theme, the smoking warlock and the soundscape, is AWESOME! As for Arduin, you totally got me hooked. I'm going to buy my copy from Drivethru and delve deeper into the grimoire. And...yes, mugs up to Dave! KYSAF
Always great to hear from you Marco! Thanks so much! We hope you love the grimoire as much as we do. KYSAF!!!
@@theoldwarlock Hey Warlock, got my Arduin Trilogy along with Arduin Adventure (the introductory rpg by Dave himself) from Drivethru and, woah, it's such a huge work! Considered its size, it's well worth the price for the ammount of good material it features. I must say, the publisher got it cleaned and accessible and, while a certain degree of interpretation is nevertheless needed, it's more than readable with pleasure. Highly recommended in this more recent edition.
Always wanted to run a Arduin campaign. Thanks for keeping David A. Hargrave's stuff rolling. I have used the crit and fumble charts in all my campaigns for more than 30 years.
You doods are two of the only people I'd ckick on a video saying 'this changed how i approached dnd', and actually think I'll get quality info from.
Thanks Dadson duo! Lol
I wish I had my first three books still.
Just received a ton of this stuff in a lot that I just picked up…..and your video was EXACTLY what I was looking for: a history and mechanical breakdown of “what is this?”
Glad it helps!
Great video and I agree with all of that. I met Dave a few times at different conventions in the bay area. I even got to watch him run a few games. The largest rules I used out of his first three books was the crits, fumbles and magical fumbles, magic items, spells and classes, races, monsters. But the best thing he did was his Hit Point system in book three. The difference is you role play instead of roll play.
A human fighter in D&D with 18 con has 14 max hp. In Arduin according to book 3 he would have 45 hp at first level. At 10 level in D&D that same human fighter would have 10d10+40 hp for a max of 140hp. In Arduin that human fighter would have 54 hp. Because you start with more HP at low level but gain minimal each level. This allowed low level parties to be less brittle. Mages didn't die from falling from a horse or getting hit by a pebble. This system also allowed for non leveled adventures and campaigns. The 20th level grizzled human fighter with max hp and 18 con had 64 hp and could hold the gate against the monsters with the first level human with 45 hp. Besides its usually not the hp loss that kills you, but the crits and fumbles and mistakes.
I adopted this hp system in the early 80's and still use it to this day. As it enhances the roleplaying and kills the min/maxing. Thanks for doing this video. He is one of the godfather's of modern ttrpg.
Chris
Thanks, Chris. Love that you still use the hp system. Our goal is to have some of these early RPG pioneers remembered. Hopefully, we're having at least a little success.
I played a lot of Rolemaster as a kid and I LOVED all of the critical results in that system. So when I learned about Arduin I was an instant fan. I've used several of it's tables over the last few years.
I really see Arduin as insane creativity on paper. Many of the offerings in the series are almost too much. But there is still so much to chose from.
Arduin is a smorgasbord of zany options. :)
I remember we used some of this on a d8 for body shots and how many rounds you had to be healed. Throat & head shots were insta-death. I had forgotten where these ideas came from.
Emperor's Choice is doing a Kickstarter with an amazing set of Arduin maps through the end of July. =^[.]^=
Thanks, Ray! We'll have to check it out.
Ah yes, the Critical Hits and Fumble Tables.
We used these and adjusted them for the various weapons. DM's made up the effects on the spot for different weapons and we had hilarious effects, especially on the fumble tables. One fumble nearly took out half our party when a two handed sword was swung in a 10x10 room.
Many of our fumbles and criticals became the stuff of legend - still being talked about decades after the event. Lot of fun!
I never played Arduin as its own game or even campaign world, but in the wild and woolly first days of AD&D, I mined the Nine Hells outta it for all manner of ingenious goodies, monsters, magic items, spells, character classes, races... Can you imagine if, rather than seeing Arduin as a competitor, TSR had bought the rights and hired Dave Hargrave? D&D as it has since evolved would've become a far richer game. Ah, well... I treasure my old copies, and have since bought the newest editions from Emperor's Choice. Arduin Forever! =^[.]^=
Agreed! Like I said in the video, David H. made the game much richer. What would have happened if he had had a bigger platform? Thanks for the comment.
Thankyou for reminding me of the Kill Kittens. I may have to include a watered down version in a low level 5E session. Perhaps paralization or slow motion toxin instead of death.
I have shared the original three books with other gamers for nigh on forty years now. My Arduin collection is one of my prized gaming possessions. Of the Grimmoires I am still lacking the posthumous nineth book.
Unfortunately the current holder of the Arduin intellectual property, Emperor's Choice, does not return queries. That said, you can still get print on demand copies of the last version, Arduin Eternal from Amazon or Barnes and Nobles.
I would love to have a copy of Worldbook of Khaas; Legendary Lands of Arduin but will not pay the inflated collectors price. Nor can I find a legitimate copy of The Black Grimmoire.
Arduin changed OD&D so much and actually made it playable..and who can forget the Killkittens
Thanks to that critical hit chart, our halfling thief split an ancient green dragon in twain with a short bow.
We can only imagine the celebrations after that one. Keep your sword arm free!
Poor DM'ing, a good DM adjusts the crit to fit the weapon and circumstance. Use your imagination and describe something so epic and amazing the players talk about it for decades. One of my friends played a Centaur fighter using a heavy lance. I played a human fighter also using a heavy lance. We spotted a dragon very young and I jumped on his back, made a ride roll to ride him bareback as we charged the dragon and lowered our lances. I had lost my horse in the last combat so was walking around with a huge lance. Dragon won initiative and breathed fire on us. We both made our saves and barely survived with just a few hp each. We both rolled critical hits with our heavy lances while charging. That was one dead young dragon. Oh we were still on fire after killing the dragon and both of us went under 0 hp but our party put the flames out and healed us. Only in Arduin is that epic available. :)
1:40 Kudos to the non-static body language.
Being a combat photographer on Vietnam he probably seen the effects of napalm and that is probably were the idea of the flask of oil of "imolation" 6 to 60 damage came from. The subconscious of those touched by war is never the same. And I think sometimes the best storytellers come from war backgrounds. Tolkien says hi
I completely agree.
I love David s work it gives a whole new twist on things we just started a world I created on most of the ardune rulls just using the 4 d6 reroll ones and two s kinda taking it a gonzo style I bought the whole set in83 and they where stolen from me so happy I have recovered this system thanks so much for putting this information out
I love these. I wish I could get another set.
The way character levels works in Arduin is on a much grander scale than D&D as well. I believe they go up to 100 or more IIRC?
Volume III does list character levels as high as 100.
We need new videos
Hello Todd. We're having some tech issues at the moment but hope to have some more videos posted shortly. Keep an eye out. Thanks!
I remember the "Politician" !! I always thought it would be great to see someone playing that character try and smooth talk their way out of an encounter with a Beholder or a Lich. But I think that one would really need real life experience in some type of politics in order to make that character truly effective as far as role-playing goes. Still, a lot of potential for real fun there.
Before D&D rules where carved in stone. After D&D, rules where, well optional. Something that TSR, Gary Gygax and now WotC really don't understand. One of the great things about D&D is no two games are ever the same. Hargrave understood.
I think you have this completely backwards. Gary Gygax himself wrote in the early D&D manuals that every rule is optional, that the DM is the final arbiter and can alter the rules as they like. It was only after AD&D, when tournament play was a big thing, that the rules became "set in stone," at least in the common perception. Of course they are all still optional, but the big and numerous, high quality tomes of rules make one think otherwise.
@@Dyrnwyn tournment play? I am so out of touch.
@@Dyrnwyn What I am trying to get at is how that flexibility of rules has change players and games. I don't think gygax knew how that would change things.
There seems to be a product called Arduin Trilogy on Drivethrurpg.
Although I haven't actually seen that publication, I believe it is the first three ( and best ) volumes by David Hargrave. How heavily edited it is, I don't know.
@@theoldwarlock Yeah, I wonder. At least it's not 90 bucks a piece. 😁 I'll definitely keep this in mind.
Personally I never use critical fumble tables. Missing your attack is punishment enough for me, I don't see the reason to add more. As well, you have to look at it from a roleplay perspective. If people have a 1/20 chance of injuring/killing themselves or a friend during training, how is anyone in the military alive?
With the critical and fumble tables in Arduin, you don’t automatically use them on a one or a twenty. There’s only a percentage chance you move to either table if successful (or unsuccessful as the case may be). If that percent isn’t met, the one or twenty you rolled is just another number.
@@theoldwarlock ah ok. I still probably won't use them, but I do enjoy the videos. Just found your channel a few days ago and everything I watched has been great, especially since I just got into AD&D 2e recently, so it has alot of helpful info.
@@canaryinacoalmine1759 Thanks CI! Glad you enjoy the videos. And thanks for taking the time to comment. We like to hear what people are thinking whether they agree or disagree.
Well, it's just a game you know and those charts were made to liven up combat. But I can remember the rules changed after Arduin Adventure and a natural 1 or 20 meant an automatic fumble or crit!
Pathfinder 1st edition is the leading edition for customization.
We've heard this from a lot of people. Pathfinder is on our list to investigate soon.
heh this is how one of my high level characters died years ago. Lowly skeleton had a great crit shot that landed on my head and insta killed me :D
That had to hurt, I live in constant fear of that happening to me. My condolences.
@@theoldwarlock it stung for a bit. That was back when we were all young and could spend a weekend playing D&D (I was in the army back then and that was our weekend time) and that character took me two years to build up.
But it was so memorable and his career awesome that to this day he sticks in my head more than any of the much more powerful heroes in later editions I have run :)
How does David Hargraves additions compare to the content they produced in Combat & Tactics?
It seems like they took his critical tables and expanded even further on it.
They also had rules for brawling and duels in that book but I don't know how this compares to his work.
You know, I'm not sure. It's very possible that C&T was compelled to make content that mirrored some of Hargraves' stuff but I think by the time it came out, a lot of companies were doing a similar thing. I haven't looked at C&T for many years - if I remember right, it was really complicated when it came out and slowed our style of game down when we tried to use it. I should probably look back and go over their brawling system, I've never been happy with our home brew approach to it. Thanks for reminding me of it.
Riddle me this, Dungeon Master:
Golden dragons are Lawful Good aligned, yet nothing about them can ever be described as anything less than *_draconian._* Attracting the moniker _draconian_ isn't _awfully good,_ so how can golden draconians be _lawfully good?!_ And *who the hell is Monica?!*
Tune in for my next riddle, where I delve into the conundrum of who'd emerge victorious from a fight between a _HOBGOBLIN_ vs a _KNOB GOBLIN._
Til next time, roll 1D33+3 to save vs me ;p
Realism in fantasy? Consult Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplay. Or for fold school, Rolemaster 2nd Edition.
That sounds like an Artificer (the everything is science instead of magic).
Can you guys share the info on the Rune Singer? This would help me a ton!
Hey BCP! From the book, "This character class is a magik user that uses sound and music in much the same way the illusionist uses light, shadow, and the like. The magik thus performed for each is temporary and of a less substantial nature than that of "true mages."" I've always played them as creating magiks with words of power woven into songs or sounds/notes from their specialized instruments having magical effects via a song. They can make spells as powerful as needed based on the duration of the songs, often with no one realizing the song they are hearing is a spell until it's too late.
Oh I'm definitely adopting this! Never knew where crit success and failure originated. This is deliciously evil!! 😈
We're always glad to help spread D&D ideas! Keep your sword arm free!
Can you please provide a pdf of this.
I'll try and get a copy of the critical/fumble chart posted soon.
It is a common misconception that Arduin was the first rpg with critical hits. It was not.
As a GM since 1974, critical hits are not good with all campaigns nor players. While a monster has to face the characters once, the characters have to face hundred/thousands/... of monsters and the law of averages means they will eventually die from a crit. Many players see time spent on their characters as time investment and a silly crit death really teaches them that the game is a waste of time. Now, if you have a game with high character death rates, then it fits in. I have seen strong emotional reactions to character deaths from players.
Love this stuff, would you guys mind if I mentioned your channel?
(on mine)
We’d be honored. Thanks!
I suppose theres no point bringing up the fact other RPGs had critical hits and fumbles before this one .. if you were that amazed by this it just meant DnD was all you saw back then. Id say this Hargrave fella had simpy seen Steve jacksons Melee, or Steve Perrins Runequest, or Ken St. Andres Tunnels and Trolls .. a lot of other games seem to have done everything you say here this Hargraves did first .. well Bah Humbug I say! youve got an inflated idea of this fellas historical importance methinks
Arduin came out before all of those except maybe The Fantasy Trip, the precursor to T&T. Greg Stafford was looking at using Hargrave's Arduin stuff to use in his Glorantha setting but decided to write RuneQuest with Steve Perrin instead. Arduin really was exceptional, and not only because of critical hits.
@@ljmiller96 interesting :) you must also be an old fart like me :)
@@markhill3858 yup. First played in '76.
@@ljmiller96 77 :)
No, The Fantasy Trip is not the precursor to T&T. Tunnels & Trolls was the second RPG, right after D&D. 1975. TFT came later. The first two rulebooks, Wizard, and Melee, came out in 77 - 78.