Wow! I'm so glad I came across your videos. They put into words many of the thoughts that have been tumbling around in my head for a long time now. I'm currently exploring the world outside of Christianity (more specifically JW) and you have been very helpful. Thank you
Scott, of all your videos, I think this is the most compelling, the most clear. I suppose staying up until 4:30 in the morning does have quite some value - well done! I want to share this everywhere!
Good work. Thank you for posting this. With how much religion is an ingrained portion of society, it is great to be able to know that I am not alone in my thoughts on these topics. I think that we (the non believers) do credit unto each other when we speak our minds because we edify each others thought processes and solidify our position through this discourse. Thanks again. Well rehearsed and simply flawless. Rock n roll.
Very nice! For a while I thought I was the only one making these same observations. I used to respond to the 'Free will chestnut' of Christians by pointing out that my mother made herself apparent to me from the moment I was born and yet I have free will.
Scott, I keep coming back to this video and keep recommending and passing it onto others. I simply love your argumentation for this one. Well done.. sir.
How can there be free will in Christianity when the well-advertised consequence of making the 'wrong' decision is the *very worst fate imaginable* - _eternal_ torture? It's duress & blackmail in the strongest possible terms. Let's say a person is given the option of choosing a steak or a chicken maryland at a restaurant. If he chooses the steak, he gets free meals for the rest of his life. If he chooses the chicken maryland, he is set on fire. It is clear that there is no actual _choice_ in this situation, as no sane person would want the consequence of choosing the chicken maryland, even though some would choose this meal if there were no negative consequences. Likewise, there is no actual free will to choose in Christianity (or Islam), just extreme forms of blackmail and bribery.
+Manly O'Beeferton That's also good reason to think that christianity is man-made religion, since mankind is prone to black and white, all or nothing mentality. But if there was heaven, there is no guarantee for it being even mediocre place. Why else would god have to make hell? I think it's a lot easier to make quite disgusting place than design something really beautiful and fascinating. Maybe the goat herders did have quite bad imagination.
LukeSumIpsePatremTe Excellent point. Though to be fair it'd probably be pretty tough for anyone to think of a place where 'good things' would remain interesting for eternity :).
+Manly O'Beeferton Yeah, the whole concept of "God won't take away your free will, but he'll torture you for all eternity in a place no living person will ever get to see evidence of" really seems to me that this hypothetical God is TRYING to force us to worship him, but has only threats and deception as tools with which to pull it off. Hardly evidence of being omnipotent within the realm of the reality that we live in, or for that matter even remotely non-fictitious.
I truly am glad you do these videos. I love your process of lining up the obvious and then pushing it over with one finger. You say what my mind has thought for years. I thank you for being my voice.
Let me ask you a question: Let's imagine you read the Qu'ran and found a verse which said: "Allah has made it clear to the world that Jesus was not God but a prophet, and so Christians are without excuse. They worship this false idol because they are corrupt and wicked." Clearly you can't argue with that, right? I mean, of course it's true! It says so right in the Qu'ran!
Peek a boo. Jehovah apparently never changes. Yet in the bible he meddles in human affairs every day. He talks to people every day. He appears to people all the time. But today NOT A PEEP other than supposedly talking to subnormal people reminding them to wear their rubbers. Why the silence?
It's so funny how the original storytellers, needing a chief adversary for their God, picked an angel who opted out of Heaven. Obviously, an eternity in the choir was not for him.
santa claus: knows who is naughty, knows who is nice. god: knows who is naughty, knows who is nice. santa claus: seemingly never ending carols god: really never ending carols
The original storytellers behind the Bible did not see Satan as an adversary for their God, they saw him as his celestial equivalent of a prosecutor or state comptroller.
"God being thus hidden, any religion that does not say that God is hidden is not true, and any religion which does not explain why does not instruct." - Blaise Pascal ... you're right, its an amazing quote -- and the explanations for this principle nor evidence for such truth is nigh upon nonexistent ...
A lot of content for only a 10min video. Very well made argument. I never thought of the relationship between free will and knowledge before, only the logical conflict between free will and "all-knowing". Thank you.
Free will doesn't apply to what we believe. I could not choose to believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue no matter how much I wanted to, not even if that belief were my ticket to a perfect after life. That was a very thoughtful video. Thanks for making it.
"X-tra Crispy", very nice! The things that ruminate withing the furows of our minds at four in the morning is astonishing. You my friend are a fine warrior.
You are good! I only found your wise words because of your co-host spot on the atheist experience. Your ability speak what I think and feel about religion is spot on! You sir are skill in you ability to communicate clearly and concisely. I only wish I had your ability to communicate so clearly when I speak to theists on their ludicrous beliefs. Please please produce more!
And consider that this video was made 12 years ago. The profundity of Scott's argumentation has laid the groundwork for pretty much every current atheist TH-camr. This is the all father that most of us didn't even know existed. His video "Treatise on Morality" has been mirrored and parroted in thousands of videos, and has been almost universally accepted by the secular community as an accurate representation of our moral frameworks. His videos on the Kalam have been a persistent thorn in the side of professional apologists like Craig. Scott has an almost supernatural ability to convey his points in such a way, that nearly no one who disagrees with him even dares to try and refute him. Every youtuber he responded to on his channel have since closed theirs, and seemingly vanished from social media all together. I am in awe at the simplicity and simultaneous comprehensiveness of his arguments. Notice also, while he has an eloquent and pleasing command of the English language, he doesn't drown his videos in pretentious philosophical jargon. This is a clear demonstration that he wants his points to be understood. Its also a subtle but effective insurance policy, so people who try to debate with him cannot misrepresent his arguments without exposing dishonest intentions. No rational person could watch Scott's videos on the Kalam, and conclude that William Craig honestly represented it. However, many apologists will overwhelm their audience, and their interlocutors, with suffocating grandiloquence. This accomplishes two things: 1. They can baffle the simple minded flock they primarly tend to, and maintain the prescribed beliefs. 2. They can counter any and all rebuttals to their nonsense with condescending epithets such as, "They just didn't understand what I was saying." All in all, appreciate Scott for what he is. Because he is truly, truly, one of a beautiful kind.
Thanks, as now I truly understand your t.v. character of Liam, and why he's such an indecisive young man after what I've seen here. Art really can and does imitate life. Good to know.
The unfortunate thing is that these people, wearing God-goggles, or running their simulacrums, will never understand how brilliant and beautifully worded this piece is.
Great vid. I would also add that not only does knowledge not inhibit choice but rather expands choice exponentionaly and allows for better more informed choice.
Yes. I'm 14 and my family celebrates Christmas every year. I'm the only one who's atheist but I still enjoy the season itself for the charity and gift-giving.
I didn't realize this argument was common. This was exactly the line of thought I had that led me away from Christianity. Excellent video, as are all of your videos that I have watched so far. Thanks! :D
Scott, Thank you for spending so much time with me this afternoon. You are a treasure. By that I mean that I am pleased that you never use profanity or vulgar language as do other atheists and I would like to tell you how much I appreciate that. I have been a subscriber for a while and you have always treated me with respect. You have frustrated the living daylights out of me, but heck, is that not your job as an atheist..LOL. I trust and pray that one day you will get saved. That is my prayer.
I really enjoyed this video. Even though this is a lengthy video, one area that I thought could use an exclamation point/example was God providing knowledge (and still keeping free will). For example, I recently explained to someone that we all have knowledge of the Sun's existence *and* freewill to deny it's existence. Virtually nobody denies the Sun's existence and if God truly gave a shit about having us know who he is, he would just do something as obvious as the sun. Yet he doesn't.
saw this linked on the 'religion is a joke' page on fb and great job , not until very recently did I understand just how crazy into religion people are and that they *actually* believe it (figured they just kinda went through the motions) but then at least in Canada we aren't bombarded with it daily and I never met anyone who was religious in any meaningfull way
Also the Timothy passage you cited has a context for the word "all". Namely, that God desires all kinds of men to be saved, particularly in verse two Paul references "kings and all who are in high positions". They were highlighted to show that God desires to have mercy even on those who persecute the church (the context of the letter).
Excellent. Good to know a young, articulate voice is alive and will carry on the debate for reason. It's a necessary (and unfortunate) fact that this argument must be continued.
God could reveal himself to such a degree that we would be compelled to love him, but he does not want to overwhelm our will with his glory. He wants us to choose to love him, so he teaches us about himself (as a rule) in more subtle ways. Many good and wise human teachers use the same methods with their students in order to get them to think for themselves.
Thanks for your response to Veritas48 around the triple thesist project, otherwise I would have missed this "old" video of yours which is a critical "must see" for any debate around thesism/atheism and its correct framing. Brilliant arguementation as usual.
I understand, but unless the issue of time negates one of the premises (which it doesn't), it doesn't change the potency of the argument, nor it's soundness or validity. As you said, it takes time for people to "come to" believe certain things. This is essentially a validation of my point, which is that we are expected to "come to" a belief in god on our own, as opposed to having been granted said knowledge from the start. If we don't happen to "come to" a belief in your god, we roast forever.
There are more possibles than evil or fictitious. He could not be all knowing, or all powerful. He could just be careless or stupid. We could have it backwards, and god lives in a warm and loving place called hell, and he did give us all the motivation we need to get there.... Good video, thanks.
Very well argued! The argument from non-belief/divine hiddenness is hardly used in popular forums today. More people should take it into account, as you do in this video. Have you come across the forms of the argument used by Theodore Drange or John Schellenberg?
Scott, your arguments are delightfully sane. They're very similar to ideas I've had for years. That's not a boast and I'm sure you realize that the same applies for many atheists. We can win this struggle. If we refuse to back down. Eventually they'll admit that science and especially reason are not on their side. That all they've got is dogma. If they'd admit it already I'd respect them because then at least they'd be dealing honestly.
This was a great video that you made. I'm going to favorite it which might help explain my non-belief to others. Thank you for caring...I know you must get a lot of flack for what you do.
Thank you! Believe it or not, you are the most honest one here. I try to tell these cats they do not have an intellectual problem with God. They throw up intellectual arguments between themselves and God to conceal their "problem" of the *will* with God. You are just bold enough to say it, which is more respectable in *some* ways. I can see by the "thumbs up" votes you got that others agree with you but weren't brave enough to say it.
Learning new knowledge could limit your choices, or make more choices available to you (depending on what the knowledge is). But it does not take away a persons ability to make choices.
To me, if something acts, it either acts of its own accord (free will) or is caused to act by something that does act of its own accord. That means it makes the most sense to me to believe that gravity's actions reflect the work of a mind (either directly or indirectly).
Sorry if I am being confusing in my responses. I would agree that what one believes is not entirely subject to one's will alone, although I believe that is the case with some "things" in one's life. However, I don't follow why one can't simply choose what one is convinced of and what one is not convinced of; such things are easily overcome through presentation of fact. I am convinced that there are exceptions to both topics, so my answer is I both agree and disagree, which is likely not helpful.
The Apostle Paul, when quoting Psalm 14, says that no one is good, and that no man seeks God, apart from God's grace. However, theologians have understood, from numerous passages, that those who live a moral life without the knowledge of the Gospel, yet are elected by God unto salvation, can indeed by saved.
Hey, TBS, do you have any source for that quote from Pascal? Dont get me wrong, It´s not a challenge, I´m just curious. BTW, I agree; this is one of the most compelling arguments for atheism, tho´ I never realized this was an argument before. It´s even more compelling when I think about my sitting-on-the-fence time, when I was an honest god-seeking doubter.
Yes. That's what I'm telling you. As a matter of fact, absolute knowledge of God's existence would do the opposite. I, for example, cannot "reject" a God that I don't even think exists. All I can do is reject the CLAIM that God exists. However, if I had absolute knowledge of God's existence, I could THEN make an informed decision as to whether or not I want to reject him. As it is now, God punishes people for doing something THEY DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING. How's that for compromising free will?
Wow, splendid, i have never seen the use of logic\ knowledge so well placed against christianity and from a source of such surprise! You are quite the amazing person delivering the quite so amazing truth that only the blind can deny. Haha i love it.
Romans 9:14-24 ESV What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills,
If we don't have free will, if we are never able to cause our own actions and make choices, how do you explain our capicty to learn and to be conscious of information? What use is that capacity if we can never choose to act one way or another? Even evolution claims that we have the faculties that we have because they have proven useful to us in the past. If the capacity for learning and knowing is useless, why have we developed this capacity?
And lastly, I would recommend a book by Alvin Plantinga called God, Freedom and Evil. It helped me understand why there is no logical problem of evil and what a libertarian freedom is. And most importantly in this context I think the same approach can be applied to your argument from nonbelief as the one Plantinga uses in his book.
"Seek the LORD while HE may be found; call upon HIM while HE is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return unto the LORD and HE will have mercy upon him; and to our GOD for HE will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:6-7.
I've used an argument similar to this before, but this actually helps me out -- separating clearly the knowledge from the belief. Devil's advocate: Unfortunately, I think to the extent that Mysterious Ways is valid (it isn't really), it applies to this. Suppose God also knows what choices you will make when you finally do know X. Perhaps all he's doing is waiting for just the right moment. Perhaps some people would never have accepted it, so it's immaterial whether or not they know...
My biggest problem with free will when it relates to religious theism in general is this: For there to exist a theistic holy book of any sort in the first place, the god must have made its presence known to at least one person, THEREBY (we are told) negating that person'(s) free will. Therefore, if god is consistent, free will can not take precedence over the knowledge that that god exists. Then there is the fact that if god can do anything, it can reveal itself without negating free will
Hello Scott. Love listening to you talks. Really does make a lot of sense to my mind. Have you listened to any Bill Donahue lectures here at youtube? In one of his lectures titled "Is God of Old Testament Satan?," he talks about the very idea you proposed that God is evil. His lecture draws on the writings of Mani, a 2nd century Persian prophet. The talk gets going at 2:45 in the video. Perhaps you will enjoy it.
I've always wondered that about angels myself. If God made them to be his servants,and he's all powerful, then why did he allow them to be rebellious? Does that mean he's not all powerful? And if he's omniscient, then didn't he create them knowing that they would rebel? And if he created them not knowing that they would rebel, does that mean he made a mistake? And if he made a mistake doesn't that mean he's not omniscient? I could get a headache thinking about it.
25-28As he says in Hosea: “I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people; and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ ”Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
Is it odd that we are the only beings (that we know of) capable of asking "why we're here" or "where we came from" yet a creator who MUST HAVE created us does not allow us to have the answer? why did he create us to be able to question if not to give the answer? and IF this was the only way for life to exist....how good is it with all the suffering and evil etc etc?
Tangentially adding on to your excellent point about the free will of fallen angels: I've often heard Christians claim that what's special about humans is that we have this god-given "free will" that sets us apart from every other creature in creation. Well, clearly angels have free will too, plus they have super powers and immortality. So god must like them way better! This also means that Christianity is polytheism. Is it three, or hundreds, or thousands of deities?
Even if the ideas of the transcendent don't correspond to reality, they are still ideas of something non-material. How can matter account for any idea we have that their is non-material existence?
By order I mean the regularity in nature that allows science to be possible, which includes the regularity we find in lightning, thunder, and rainbows. Saying we know the causes of these things is like saying we know why a domino falls. It is true that a domino falls because the one behind it fell into it, but how did the dominos come to be arranged in that configuration to begin with? And why did the very first domino fall?
If we are not saved unless we believe in devine death, and if we are not forgiven unless we repent, why did God send his son (who also was the one and only God) to be killed?
@MageSutek There is a complex interplay between our cognitive inputs and our conscious desires and will. To say that one's beliefs are entirely involuntary would be incorrect, just as it would be to say that we simply decide what to believe in every case. A person can profess a belief without actually holding it, and eventually end up believing it in some sense. There is one line of thinking in Christianity where someone should act as if they believe until they receive the gift of faith.
It is not possession of the Truth, but rather the pursuit of Truth by which he extends his powers and in which his ever-growing perfectability is to be found. Possession makes one passive, indolent, and proud. If you get my point you get it doubly.
Pretty interesting argument TB. Your videos are excellent examples of critical thinking, intelligence & logic being put to use on a very important question: Is there a god? Most christians that I know have very little knowledge of the bible & are curious how I, an atheist know as much of it as I do. I explain that I was a christian & took the god question seriously. After much research on religions & SCIENCE, I concluded that there is no need for, or evidence of, any gods.
one of the first/biggest contradictions is, as u mentioned, angels who we are to understand were created as perfect beings for no other purpose but to worship god...so how is it that they fell? how is it that Satan became jealous or envious if he was MEANT to be perfect?
@theaccousticaddict - but WHO or what filled our hearts with those doubts and confusions?? Conversely, if we don't have those doubts and confusions, is it because our wanting to believe overcomes the rationality and intelligent power of reason that God made in us? And in that case should we rejoice that our desire to believe made the illusion "truth"? (see another post to you, I don't know why some replies are not associated with the person being responded to).
(Cont.) Another's knowledge of your present actions doesn’t negate your free will, nor does knowledge of your past actions. I don’t know why the same wouldn’t apply to knowledge of the future. Free will also accounts for the presence of evil in spite of God’s omnibenevolence. Truly free will implies at least the real possibility of choosing evil. But God’s omnibenevolence also implies that he will set all things right in the end.
@TheoreticalBullshit I'm an atheist and have been for a little over a year and you summed it up better than I ever could. Consider my mind blown. Thank you.
@the accousticaddict - as a theist, I wonder if I really know God - in fact I doubt that I do - even though I want to, - and there are moments when I think I do - and in those moments I pray that He helps others to know him and for me to know Him better. But the sad "reality" of my material and rational environment leads me only to further uncertainty. Either he doesn't "exist" or he exists only "in" me, - that I make him exist because I "ought" to or I volunteer the illusion.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? This is to your question about why there are unbelievers or sinners or people who rebel or fallen from high places.
Regarding the relationship between god not making his existence evident and free will, I would go further and say theists have it exactly backwards : if (or since) god doesn't make himself known, I can't (or don't) have the free will to make a choice between accepting him or not.
I've always said if there is a god non-belief wouldn't even be a thing.
Wow! I'm so glad I came across your videos. They put into words many of the thoughts that have been tumbling around in my head for a long time now. I'm currently exploring the world outside of Christianity (more specifically JW) and you have been very helpful. Thank you
Scott, of all your videos, I think this is the most compelling, the most clear. I suppose staying up until 4:30 in the morning does have quite some value - well done! I want to share this everywhere!
Good work. Thank you for posting this. With how much religion is an ingrained portion of society, it is great to be able to know that I am not alone in my thoughts on these topics. I think that we (the non believers) do credit unto each other when we speak our minds because we edify each others thought processes and solidify our position through this discourse. Thanks again. Well rehearsed and simply flawless. Rock n roll.
Very nice! For a while I thought I was the only one making these same observations. I used to respond to the 'Free will chestnut' of Christians by pointing out that my mother made herself apparent to me from the moment I was born and yet I have free will.
Scott, I keep coming back to this video and keep recommending and passing it onto others. I simply love your argumentation for this one. Well done.. sir.
How can there be free will in Christianity when the well-advertised consequence of making the 'wrong' decision is the *very worst fate imaginable* - _eternal_ torture? It's duress & blackmail in the strongest possible terms.
Let's say a person is given the option of choosing a steak or a chicken maryland at a restaurant. If he chooses the steak, he gets free meals for the rest of his life. If he chooses the chicken maryland, he is set on fire. It is clear that there is no actual _choice_ in this situation, as no sane person would want the consequence of choosing the chicken maryland, even though some would choose this meal if there were no negative consequences.
Likewise, there is no actual free will to choose in Christianity (or Islam), just extreme forms of blackmail and bribery.
+Manly O'Beeferton That's also good reason to think that christianity is man-made religion, since mankind is prone to black and white, all or nothing mentality.
But if there was heaven, there is no guarantee for it being even mediocre place. Why else would god have to make hell? I think it's a lot easier to make quite disgusting place than design something really beautiful and fascinating. Maybe the goat herders did have quite bad imagination.
LukeSumIpsePatremTe Excellent point. Though to be fair it'd probably be pretty tough for anyone to think of a place where 'good things' would remain interesting for eternity :).
+Manly O'Beeferton Yeah, the whole concept of "God won't take away your free will, but he'll torture you for all eternity in a place no living person will ever get to see evidence of" really seems to me that this hypothetical God is TRYING to force us to worship him, but has only threats and deception as tools with which to pull it off. Hardly evidence of being omnipotent within the realm of the reality that we live in, or for that matter even remotely non-fictitious.
Donald Kronos And even if the Abrahamic god did amazingly exist, I would still not worship, let alone respect, such an insanely evil entity.
Order chicken. Eat chicken. Repent.
I truly am glad you do these videos. I love your process of lining up the obvious and then pushing it over with one finger. You say what my mind has thought for years. I thank you for being my voice.
Let me ask you a question: Let's imagine you read the Qu'ran and found a verse which said:
"Allah has made it clear to the world that Jesus was not God but a prophet, and so Christians are without excuse. They worship this false idol because they are corrupt and wicked."
Clearly you can't argue with that, right? I mean, of course it's true! It says so right in the Qu'ran!
Your videos surprise me just about every time. Very thorough.
Peek a boo.
Jehovah apparently never changes. Yet in the bible he meddles in human affairs every day. He talks to people every day. He appears to people all the time. But today NOT A PEEP other than supposedly talking to subnormal people reminding them to wear their rubbers. Why the silence?
he hasn't even got a cell phone.
Because of a man's suppression of truth his heart is hardened. God gives you what you want.
It's so funny how the original storytellers, needing a chief adversary for their God, picked an angel who opted out of Heaven. Obviously, an eternity in the choir was not for him.
santa claus: knows who is naughty, knows who is nice.
god: knows who is naughty, knows who is nice.
santa claus: seemingly never ending carols
god: really never ending carols
The original storytellers behind the Bible did not see Satan as an adversary for their God, they saw him as his celestial equivalent of a prosecutor or state comptroller.
"God being thus hidden, any religion that does not say that God is hidden is not true, and any religion which does not explain why does not instruct." - Blaise Pascal ... you're right, its an amazing quote -- and the explanations for this principle nor evidence for such truth is nigh upon nonexistent ...
Theoretical Bullshit Scott have you ever thought about writing a book on religion? Title it "GOD: Impotent, evil, or fictitious."
Thank you! I loved the way you explained that, it totally makes sense to me, you are awesome!!
A lot of content for only a 10min video. Very well made argument. I never thought of the relationship between free will and knowledge before, only the logical conflict between free will and "all-knowing".
Thank you.
LMAO! "God Goggles" i love that. Yet another amazing video Scott.
Nice to see a video with a logic argument and none of the hostily or vulgarity so many others seem to think is necessary. Good job!
Brilliant and articulate as always. Thanks a lot for these videos. They are my favourite on all of youtube. :)
Free will doesn't apply to what we believe. I could not choose to believe that the sky is green and the grass is blue no matter how much I wanted to, not even if that belief were my ticket to a perfect after life. That was a very thoughtful video. Thanks for making it.
"X-tra Crispy", very nice! The things that ruminate withing the furows of our minds at four in the morning is astonishing. You my friend are a fine warrior.
I love watching your videos! I really wish you had more views...everyone needs to hear these arguments
I love you so hard.
I have a few dozen subscriptions and you are in the top three of my favorite to listen to.
You are good!
I only found your wise words because of your co-host spot on the atheist experience.
Your ability speak what I think and feel about religion is spot on!
You sir are skill in you ability to communicate clearly and concisely. I only wish I had your ability to communicate so clearly when I speak to theists on their ludicrous beliefs.
Please please produce more!
And consider that this video was made 12 years ago. The profundity of Scott's argumentation has laid the groundwork for pretty much every current atheist TH-camr. This is the all father that most of us didn't even know existed. His video "Treatise on Morality" has been mirrored and parroted in thousands of videos, and has been almost universally accepted by the secular community as an accurate representation of our moral frameworks. His videos on the Kalam have been a persistent thorn in the side of professional apologists like Craig. Scott has an almost supernatural ability to convey his points in such a way, that nearly no one who disagrees with him even dares to try and refute him. Every youtuber he responded to on his channel have since closed theirs, and seemingly vanished from social media all together. I am in awe at the simplicity and simultaneous comprehensiveness of his arguments. Notice also, while he has an eloquent and pleasing command of the English language, he doesn't drown his videos in pretentious philosophical jargon. This is a clear demonstration that he wants his points to be understood. Its also a subtle but effective insurance policy, so people who try to debate with him cannot misrepresent his arguments without exposing dishonest intentions. No rational person could watch Scott's videos on the Kalam, and conclude that William Craig honestly represented it. However, many apologists will overwhelm their audience, and their interlocutors, with suffocating grandiloquence. This accomplishes two things:
1. They can baffle the simple minded flock they primarly tend to, and maintain the prescribed beliefs.
2. They can counter any and all rebuttals to their nonsense with condescending epithets such as, "They just didn't understand what I was saying."
All in all, appreciate Scott for what he is. Because he is truly, truly, one of a beautiful kind.
Thanks, as now I truly understand your t.v. character of Liam, and why he's such an indecisive young man after what I've seen here. Art really can and does imitate life. Good to know.
Kudos on your admonishment concerning the proper use of "quote," while not piling on by pointing out "pet peave." Your restraint is admirable.
Love the way you convey your message man.
very eloquent.
I'd "choose the other team" for you Scott. You're that awesome.
This is your best video. Amazing insight. I really liked it. Really to the point.
The unfortunate thing is that these people, wearing God-goggles, or running their simulacrums, will never understand how brilliant and beautifully worded this piece is.
Great vid. I would also add that not only does knowledge not inhibit choice but rather expands choice exponentionaly and allows for better more informed choice.
Yes. I'm 14 and my family celebrates Christmas every year. I'm the only one who's atheist but I still enjoy the season itself for the charity and gift-giving.
I didn't realize this argument was common. This was exactly the line of thought I had that led me away from Christianity. Excellent video, as are all of your videos that I have watched so far. Thanks! :D
...and you definitely have researched and thought through what you believe, so thats very refreshing!
Scott,
Thank you for spending so much time with me this afternoon. You are a treasure. By that I mean that I am pleased that you never use profanity or vulgar language as do other atheists and I would like to tell you how much I appreciate that. I have been a subscriber for a while and you have always treated me with respect. You have frustrated the living daylights out of me, but heck, is that not your job as an atheist..LOL. I trust and pray that one day you will get saved. That is my prayer.
"...and God has hardened your heart!" So much for your vaunted "free will."
I really enjoyed this video. Even though this is a lengthy video, one area that I thought could use an exclamation point/example was God providing knowledge (and still keeping free will). For example, I recently explained to someone that we all have knowledge of the Sun's existence *and* freewill to deny it's existence. Virtually nobody denies the Sun's existence and if God truly gave a shit about having us know who he is, he would just do something as obvious as the sun. Yet he doesn't.
He is perfectly clear and brilliant (as always). A subtext is a hidden message and invisible for the casual audience.
Finally, someone makes a good point about 'free will'. I'm so tired of people bringing that up as their fall back argument.
saw this linked on the 'religion is a joke' page on fb and great job , not until very recently did I understand just how crazy into religion people are and that they *actually* believe it (figured they just kinda went through the motions)
but then at least in Canada we aren't bombarded with it daily and I never met anyone who was religious in any meaningfull way
Also the Timothy passage you cited has a context for the word "all". Namely, that God desires all kinds of men to be saved, particularly in verse two Paul references "kings and all who are in high positions". They were highlighted to show that God desires to have mercy even on those who persecute the church (the context of the letter).
Excellent. Good to know a young, articulate voice is alive and will carry on the debate for reason. It's a necessary (and unfortunate) fact that this argument must be continued.
Excellent video! I was planning on making a video along the same lines, but I'm afraid you've done it much better than I could!
God could reveal himself to such a degree that we would be compelled to love him, but he does not want to overwhelm our will with his glory. He wants us to choose to love him, so he teaches us about himself (as a rule) in more subtle ways. Many good and wise human teachers use the same methods with their students in order to get them to think for themselves.
Thanks for your response to Veritas48 around the triple thesist project, otherwise I would have missed this "old" video of yours which is a critical "must see" for any debate around thesism/atheism and its correct framing.
Brilliant arguementation as usual.
I understand, but unless the issue of time negates one of the premises (which it doesn't), it doesn't change the potency of the argument, nor it's soundness or validity.
As you said, it takes time for people to "come to" believe certain things. This is essentially a validation of my point, which is that we are expected to "come to" a belief in god on our own, as opposed to having been granted said knowledge from the start. If we don't happen to "come to" a belief in your god, we roast forever.
There are more possibles than evil or fictitious. He could not be all knowing, or all powerful. He could just be careless or stupid. We could have it backwards, and god lives in a warm and loving place called hell, and he did give us all the motivation we need to get there....
Good video, thanks.
Very well argued!
The argument from non-belief/divine hiddenness is hardly used in popular forums today. More people should take it into account, as you do in this video. Have you come across the forms of the argument used by Theodore Drange or John Schellenberg?
Scott, your arguments are delightfully sane. They're very similar to ideas I've had for years. That's not a boast and I'm sure you realize that the same applies for many atheists. We can win this struggle. If we refuse to back down. Eventually they'll admit that science and especially reason are not on their side. That all they've got is dogma.
If they'd admit it already I'd respect them because then at least they'd be dealing honestly.
This was a great video that you made. I'm going to favorite it which might help explain my non-belief to others. Thank you for caring...I know you must get a lot of flack for what you do.
Thank you! Believe it or not, you are the most honest one here. I try to tell these cats they do not have an intellectual problem with God. They throw up intellectual arguments between themselves and God to conceal their "problem" of the *will* with God. You are just bold enough to say it, which is more respectable in *some* ways. I can see by the "thumbs up" votes you got that others agree with you but weren't brave enough to say it.
Nicely done. I really liked how you laid the free choose argument to rest. I have said almost the same thing to many different people.
i love your shirt! Rock and roll is my god :)
Seriously though, excelent video, good arguments!
And if I were to read a book on logic, what part of my argument would I realize is fallacious?
This is an excellent video, it lays out the point without trying to offend the opposite side.
Loved the "Extra Crispy" quote. Kudos man!!
Learning new knowledge could limit your choices, or make more choices available to you (depending on what the knowledge is). But it does not take away a persons ability to make choices.
To me, if something acts, it either acts of its own accord (free will) or is caused to act by something that does act of its own accord. That means it makes the most sense to me to believe that gravity's actions reflect the work of a mind (either directly or indirectly).
Not only does knowledge not negate free choice, it is a necessary condition for meaningful choice.
Sorry if I am being confusing in my responses. I would agree that what one believes is not entirely subject to one's will alone, although I believe that is the case with some "things" in one's life. However, I don't follow why one can't simply choose what one is convinced of and what one is not convinced of; such things are easily overcome through presentation of fact. I am convinced that there are exceptions to both topics, so my answer is I both agree and disagree, which is likely not helpful.
The Apostle Paul, when quoting Psalm 14, says that no one is good, and that no man seeks God, apart from God's grace.
However, theologians have understood, from numerous passages, that those who live a moral life without the knowledge of the Gospel, yet are elected by God unto salvation, can indeed by saved.
Hey, TBS, do you have any source for that quote from Pascal? Dont get me wrong, It´s not a challenge, I´m just curious. BTW, I agree; this is one of the most compelling arguments for atheism, tho´ I never realized this was an argument before. It´s even more compelling when I think about my sitting-on-the-fence time, when I was an honest god-seeking doubter.
Yes. That's what I'm telling you. As a matter of fact, absolute knowledge of God's existence would do the opposite. I, for example, cannot "reject" a God that I don't even think exists. All I can do is reject the CLAIM that God exists. However, if I had absolute knowledge of God's existence, I could THEN make an informed decision as to whether or not I want to reject him.
As it is now, God punishes people for doing something THEY DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DOING. How's that for compromising free will?
TB, you re good, you er really good kid. 5 stars. I'll use some of your arguments myself next time I talk to a christian
muy bien dicho. you are very clear with your reasoning. howerver they always manage to come up with an answer
Wow, splendid, i have never seen the use of logic\ knowledge so well placed against christianity and from a source of such surprise! You are quite the amazing person delivering the quite so amazing truth that only the blind can deny. Haha i love it.
Love to see you engaging with the community, TB.
Romans 9:14-24 ESV
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills,
If we don't have free will, if we are never able to cause our own actions and make choices, how do you explain our capicty to learn and to be conscious of information? What use is that capacity if we can never choose to act one way or another? Even evolution claims that we have the faculties that we have because they have proven useful to us in the past. If the capacity for learning and knowing is useless, why have we developed this capacity?
And lastly, I would recommend a book by Alvin Plantinga called God, Freedom and Evil. It helped me understand why there is no logical problem of evil and what a libertarian freedom is. And most importantly in this context I think the same approach can be applied to your argument from nonbelief as the one Plantinga uses in his book.
That logical syllogism is a very clear, simple answer.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
"Seek the LORD while HE may be found; call upon HIM while HE is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return unto the LORD and HE will have mercy upon him; and to our GOD for HE will abundantly pardon."
Isaiah 55:6-7.
I've used an argument similar to this before, but this actually helps me out -- separating clearly the knowledge from the belief.
Devil's advocate:
Unfortunately, I think to the extent that Mysterious Ways is valid (it isn't really), it applies to this. Suppose God also knows what choices you will make when you finally do know X. Perhaps all he's doing is waiting for just the right moment. Perhaps some people would never have accepted it, so it's immaterial whether or not they know...
My biggest problem with free will when it relates to religious theism in general is this:
For there to exist a theistic holy book of any sort in the first place, the god must have made its presence known to at least one person, THEREBY (we are told) negating that person'(s) free will.
Therefore, if god is consistent, free will can not take precedence over the knowledge that that god exists.
Then there is the fact that if god can do anything, it can reveal itself without negating free will
Hello Scott. Love listening to you talks. Really does make a lot of sense to my mind. Have you listened to any Bill Donahue lectures here at youtube? In one of his lectures titled "Is God of Old Testament Satan?," he talks about the very idea you proposed that God is evil. His lecture draws on the writings of Mani, a 2nd century Persian prophet. The talk gets going at 2:45 in the video. Perhaps you will enjoy it.
I've always wondered that about angels myself. If God made them to be his servants,and he's all powerful, then why did he allow them to be rebellious? Does that mean he's not all powerful? And if he's omniscient, then didn't he create them knowing that they would rebel? And if he created them not knowing that they would rebel, does that mean he made a mistake? And if he made a mistake doesn't that mean he's not omniscient? I could get a headache thinking about it.
25-28As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’
”Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality."
Is it odd that we are the only beings (that we know of) capable of asking "why we're here" or "where we came from" yet a creator who MUST HAVE created us does not allow us to have the answer? why did he create us to be able to question if not to give the answer? and IF this was the only way for life to exist....how good is it with all the suffering and evil etc etc?
Possible revision to the end? This plan could be that of a God that is either evil, fictitious, or incompetent (may be more possibilities).
When it does this, gravity is acting in an ordered, regular way, as if it were following rules. Why?
Tangentially adding on to your excellent point about the free will of fallen angels: I've often heard Christians claim that what's special about humans is that we have this god-given "free will" that sets us apart from every other creature in creation. Well, clearly angels have free will too, plus they have super powers and immortality. So god must like them way better!
This also means that Christianity is polytheism. Is it three, or hundreds, or thousands of deities?
Even if the ideas of the transcendent don't correspond to reality, they are still ideas of something non-material. How can matter account for any idea we have that their is non-material existence?
By order I mean the regularity in nature that allows science to be possible, which includes the regularity we find in lightning, thunder, and rainbows. Saying we know the causes of these things is like saying we know why a domino falls. It is true that a domino falls because the one behind it fell into it, but how did the dominos come to be arranged in that configuration to begin with? And why did the very first domino fall?
If we are not saved unless we believe in devine death, and if we are not forgiven unless we repent, why did God send his son (who also was the one and only God) to be killed?
@MageSutek There is a complex interplay between our cognitive inputs and our conscious desires and will. To say that one's beliefs are entirely involuntary would be incorrect, just as it would be to say that we simply decide what to believe in every case. A person can profess a belief without actually holding it, and eventually end up believing it in some sense. There is one line of thinking in Christianity where someone should act as if they believe until they receive the gift of faith.
It is not possession of the Truth, but rather the pursuit of Truth by which he extends his powers and in which his ever-growing perfectability is to be found. Possession makes one passive, indolent, and proud.
If you get my point you get it doubly.
Pretty interesting argument TB.
Your videos are excellent examples of critical thinking, intelligence & logic being put to use on a very important question:
Is there a god?
Most christians that I know have very little knowledge of the bible & are curious how I, an atheist know as much of it as I do.
I explain that I was a christian & took the god question seriously.
After much research on religions & SCIENCE, I concluded that there is no need for, or evidence of, any gods.
A very good video. Clear and well articulated. Keep it up.
one of the first/biggest contradictions is, as u mentioned, angels who we are to understand were created as perfect beings for no other purpose but to worship god...so how is it that they fell? how is it that Satan became jealous or envious if he was MEANT to be perfect?
@theaccousticaddict - but WHO or what filled our hearts with those doubts and confusions?? Conversely, if we don't have those doubts and confusions, is it because our wanting to believe overcomes the rationality and intelligent power of reason that God made in us?
And in that case should we rejoice that our desire to believe made the illusion "truth"?
(see another post to you, I don't know why some replies are not associated with the person being responded to).
@bofumytofu I think its a less awkward way of saying "perfectly good", or "as good as you can get".
(Cont.) Another's knowledge of your present actions doesn’t negate your free will, nor does knowledge of your past actions. I don’t know why the same wouldn’t apply to knowledge of the future. Free will also accounts for the presence of evil in spite of God’s omnibenevolence. Truly free will implies at least the real possibility of choosing evil. But God’s omnibenevolence also implies that he will set all things right in the end.
@TheoreticalBullshit I'm an atheist and have been for a little over a year and you summed it up better than I ever could. Consider my mind blown. Thank you.
@the accousticaddict - as a theist, I wonder if I really know God - in fact I doubt that I do - even though I want to, - and there are moments when I think I do - and in those moments I pray that He helps others to know him and for me to know Him better. But the sad "reality" of my material and rational environment leads me only to further uncertainty. Either he doesn't "exist" or he exists only "in" me, - that I make him exist because I "ought" to or I volunteer the illusion.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
This is to your question about why there are unbelievers or sinners or people who rebel or fallen from high places.
you have such fun entertaining and great videos...don't stop making them..
I'm sorry, but I don't understand how "time" solves the Problem of Nonbelief. Maybe you could make a video explaining how exactly that works?
Regarding the relationship between god not making his existence evident and free will, I would go further and say theists have it exactly backwards : if (or since) god doesn't make himself known, I can't (or don't) have the free will to make a choice between accepting him or not.
You are so out there! Good Luck& God Bless!