Having worked in radio for 26 years, many stations back in the 80s and 90s would record their on air output via lp hi-fi VHS tape. Really convenient and the tapes were just reused once the legal time of storage had elapsed. Great video.
I'd imagine that must have worked very well when FM broadcast receivers were limited to a maximum frequency response of 15kHz and only had a 60dB signal-to-noise ratio.
Very cool stuff! I recently got my old Tascam 4 track up and running again after 20 plus years. I have about 50 tapes of multitrack demos and masters that I've been sorting through from my teenage years. Hoping to transfer a few of the songs as back-up files in case I lose the tapes or they degrade. Just found your channel today, and now I'm subscribed. All the best!
VHS actually sounded like it had more depth to the sound, less flattened-out. I would say there is a slight difference, despite no obvious coloring. If you wanted to release an all-analog album (cassette/vinyl), it’s a no-brainer. 📼
I had an Hitachi VCR which had record levels back in the mid 90's. I recorded my LP's and CD's on VHS for long listening sessions like parties and my friends couldn't believe how good it sounded. Recorded in "Normal Speed" music really had an extra depth and power to the sound... Well done mate great video, brings back some great younger days.
I worked at a radio station in the late 80s. I wanted to take home a demo of a spot (advert) for further listening. Stunningly, the station had no working cassette deck, at that moment. But, it had several, very nice, 4-head (HIFI) VHS-decks. Being a film student at the time, I knew a suitable audio dub could be recorded onto VHS. I learned this the week before when dubbing video, for a school project. Though I captured sound, there was no video (due to a bad component video cable). Remembering this, I found a VHS cassette and dubbed my spot via 8-track (TASCAM 38) which had been connected by our engineer to one of the VHS decks. I played the dub on my own HIFI VHS deck (connected to my home stereo, featuring the excellent, PIONEER SX-1980). Fantastic sound!
Definitely. The Hi-Fi VHS soundtrack was capable of 20Hz-20kHz frequency range. Plus, the formulation of the tape was pretty outstanding inorder to hold the bandwidth of analog video, so the audio was like using a metal cassette tape to record with on a tape deck.
The format itself was capable of well in excess of a 20Hz to 20kHz frequency range, but there were plenty of machines out there that fell far short of this. I measured the Sharp HiFi Stereo machine I bought new (in 1990?) at 35Hz to 15kHz within 6dB and with a signal-to-noise ratio of around 70dB. The Technics cassette deck I had at the time was flat from 18Hz to 21kHz within 1.5dB with a TDK SA tape with an 80dB signal-to-noise ratio when using Dolby C. The compander system used by the HiFi Stereo format to reduce noise also led to very obvious pumping artifacts that weren't present on cassette with Dolby C. It would have taken a VERY bad cassette deck to have sounded any worse in my case. A friend bought an identical Sharp VCR a few days after me and his was equally as awful, so this wasn't a one-off. Fortunately for him, he was already wearing hearing aids by this time so couldn't hear how terrible it sounded.
@@MrSlipstreem I watch my VHS movies on a JVC deck with an Onkyo Pro Logic amplifier. I’m still amazed at how well good ol 4 channel surround sound with an analog tape format. My favorite is to watch Saving Private Ryan on surround. I don’t have the most technical setup but it’s a great cinematic experience nonetheless.
@@andypickeringmusic It's like when they were doing VHS Hi-Fi they decided, "The video quality is pretty shit, so maybe we should over engineer the audio and people will really understand how great this format is." Except most people were still watching VHS on a mono VCR or they used the linear stereo track that had Dolby B NR. Outside of video/audiophiles, there weren't a whole lot of the general consumers of VHS that were using them to their full potential. I'm sure it wasnt cheap, either, to buy a Dolby Pro-Logic a/v receiver and have all the speakers to fully experience it.
I used to record all our gigs live off the desk, not pcm, analogue. I have 90 odd tapes that need to be digitized, although after 20 years, there is chance of tape deterioration via a fine white powder that seems to be corrosion. Old tapes I would ff/rew several times before lifting off them, to make sure Transport is smooth. We used an old phono desk to record straight to vhs and despite crappy mics we got a quite passable demo.. Modern ones like this one have auto level controls, but they are more hard to find these days.
You could probably time-sync a bunch of machines, with some crude hackery, quite easily. Whether or not it would be a reliable workhorse…. Is up for debate :) Then there’s the practical workflow limitations… like punching in and out, etc. The potential for the best analogue medium ever, is definitely there… but there’s no R&D budget to develop things further.
Akai did an analogue 12 track machine (MG1214) in the 80s, which originally was going to use video tapes, but that deal fell through and they weren't allowed the rights in the end, and so they had to get proprietary tapes made, which are very slightly different to broadcast video tapes. A GREAT sounding machine, which was available as a big all in one unit including a mixer, and a rackmount version without a mixer, and just the 12 track recorder (MG14D).
i remember the first time copying a CD to VHS. Thinking it couldn't be true, that analog could be that effortlesly perfect. Masters for any digital copy after, for "mixtapes"...
VHS helical is deep layered into the tape. It's important to use very good quality tapes. I've got 11 now, audio spec from VHS and svhs no different. Sony never made VHS. There is a shortage of those block connectors now. It definitely improves the sound. Signal path. Analogue in. FM converteed via 2 carriers for left and right. Then it passes to output via a compander. Despite what people say, it is entirely analogue. But digitally controlled. Great video. Love the merantz!
I sent individual tracks that I had recorded with an old Tascam interface into a JVC Super VHS that I had around 20 years ago. I then recorded all of the individual tracks back into my daw. I used this tube channel I had at the time as well for all of the tracks. To this day its one of my favorite mixes I've ever done. It really sounds pretty good.
I remember a friend of mine recording a Sting concert (from a TV broadcast I think) to a VHS, and the sound quality was amazing. It was early 90's, the CD only recently appeared and cassettes were what everyone used.
About 30 years ago I managed to get hold of a bit of a knackered JVC HI-F VHS with a go-to feature (tape counter) so as long as you rewound the tape back to the start you could rely on landing at the the right point on the tape if you entered the right tape counter point on the tape. Me and my brother set out to record his record collection on to VHS HI-Fi but in LP mode, meaning 8 hours of playback. We did graphics with an Amiga, noted all the counter points in a book. It was like I had my very own jukebox, the sound quality was as good as the source it came from and that was about 30 years ago, broadcast quality in your own home. I still marvel at how good VHS Hi-Fi for it's time........ Then digital came along and took the fun out of everything analogue, but I'm not saying we should go back I'm just saying it was more fun.
In 1995 I bought a Grundig GV 540 hifi and always used it as a tape recorder. It was better than my Technics RS TR 373 and had a longer recording time. The playback on it was perfect, but one day the recorder broke and I bought another one. Due to an error, I recorded these audio tracks without an image signal. When playing on my new Philips SVHS VR 1600, distortions occurred because the autotracking no longer worked without a picture sync signal. That didn't bother the Grundig recorder, but the Philips (JVC clone) needed an image signal to function properly.
Sounds really good. It sounds just as good as the digital to me. I recall, back in the early 90s when I was using 4 track because that is all we had, when my friend bought a digital vcr for that purpose. Of course back then anything digital was automatically supposed to be great. Little did we know😎
@@andypickeringmusic ya. The dude claimed it was a digital VCR. I don't know. Ha. Maybe like adat machines and the like used tape? I don't know. But hey. Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays and Happy new year Andy!!
Nice one. I recently bought a couple of vcr's to do some pre computer multitracking like I used to back in the day. I really like the fact you need to do the whole track in one take. Its kind of like looping a whole song. Its good to keep these old processes just for the fun and nostalgia element. Also not being able to drop in mid song is a good thing to practice.
I had a number of Sony and JVC hifi VHS in the past (in fact is till have them). The only thing I noticed from the format (irrespective of machine brand) is that on quiet pads you can get a weird fluttering buzzy sound so I never used it for mastering as it drove me mad. I also had the Sony pcm F1 which was digital. It sounded good for the mid eighties but tapes could deteriorate quite quickly. I stuck to 1/4 inch reels (Studer C37's, Revox G36 and A77 as well as Teac a7300) as I knew what I would get back from them. I still use a Studer A80 and an A807 to pass mixes and single tracks through and back to the DAW as this seems to be the ultimate solution.
That does sound like a good solution! The c37 is pretty much my dream mixdown deck. I like my a77 (although far from perfect!) I think I've got lucky with my vhs as there's no noise at all
It always sounded good to me especially with tube amp monoblocks in stereo i actually remember a vcr at circuit city i believe .anyhow on the box it said better soubd than digital i can tell you this one of the best sounding sources i ever heard was a vcr tape i found at a thrift store it had 1video on the whole tape and that was it not even interview just 1video it was the moulin rouge lady marmalade little kim .cristina aguilera ,pink and afew more .well the quality was amazing clear ,very real,punchy ive always thought tape even cassatte at times has a realism the other formats dont have
Great Andy! Allow an old timer to chime in. I'm a drummer that likes recording audio. Please take my criticisms lightly as I may be becoming senile and damaged by Rap music, lol! Your song is a hit but I feel like the vocals are competing with the guitar eq wise and separation wise. Not hard to fix. I'd want to use a BBE sonic maximizer recording your vocals and a bit on overall mixdown. There are plenty of BBE examples and a/b comparisons on youtube. I came here for VCR info and got caught up in your talent instead, lol. I've enjoyed every bit of you and thank you so much.
Thanks for the compliment on the song. I mean that's the whole point I guess! I'll certainly look into those sonic maximisers, I mean I'm only a home Analog recording hobbyist and not a professional engineer. This song/mix was not much more than a demo
I did the same in my home studio back in the mid 90’s for about a year - after getting annoyed how hissy my Fostex X-26 four-track was all the time, I used my stereo video recorder (Nicam?? Can’t remember) to master my compositions, before MiniDisc became affordable. It sounded great, but of course - not exactly portable 😂
@@andypickeringmusic My 6 head nicam stereo vcr has 6 vidioheads in the drum and the audio head at the side of that. but that could be the mono head for backward compability
@@VattenDemonen You're right in your last comment but confused about the rest. The mono linear track is only there for backward compatibility. All VHS Hi-Fi is recorded across the tape in diagonal stripes just like the video. This is why such machines are often described as 6-head. This means that on the head drum there are 2 heads for SP video, 2 heads for Hi-Fi audio, and 2 heads for LP/EP video.
Andy, back years ago, 1980’s, I used to master all my tapes over to VHS HiFi…….I was recording on a Tascam Studio 8,,,388,,,I had a pioneer 1050 I believe, and would master to it also……Much easier on the old Zenith VhsHiFi..I still have those tapes today, and they still sound excellent……The VHS did have VU meters also…..I record in Logic now a days, but, I still kick down my masters to VHS…..Their may have been a compression scheme on the older vhs decks………Today I use an old Sony 1610 pro deck……great if you can find a nice one in good condition
Arr man a hifi vhs with VUs would be amazing! Although I heard from someone that has owned a lot that the bells and whistles versions are not as reliable
I read that the hi-fi track on VHS can't reproduce the sound intensity increments perfectly, that is, if an audio was so quiet and kept getting louder or the other way around, it wouldn't sound as consistent as digital. I haven't tested this myself, but VHS hi-fi is suitable for the audio track in movies whose dynamic range is already compressed to comfortably listen to at home.
Try Teac's CD recorder, you just hook any analog source to it via RCA and set your level same as a cassette deck. Lets you record up to 79 minutes of audio then you hit 'finalize' and boom it's a regular CD you do whatever you want with. I record what I'm streaming, use my DAC's analog outs as the source. The recorder and blank CD's are 1/10th the cost of a R2R deck/tape and better SQ.
Damn dude the tape is lovely is really warms up the reverb on the vocals and makes it sound almost haunting , def gonna have to try this ! Wonder how Betamax tape would sound ?
The fatter the tape the more dynamic and full the sound can be , thats why the the VHS sounds so good. I listen to the digital and VHS in the video with my headphones and I hear no diffrence so theres no use to it but what its excellent for would be bouncing the 4 track to VHS and then back into the 4 track , the result is you have more tracks and won't lose the orignal recording tracks on the master and keep it so you can go back to it. The method I used for years was bouncing to a good Sony CD recorder and then back to the 4-Track. The results were very good but you an hear a tinge of thiness but it was passable but if you use the VHS then it should be better and fatter sound. The only reason I never used that technique was many of the VHS recorders use a limiter and some compression so the sound might be degraded when the limiter comes in and drops the sound levels up and down so I think your VHS recorder does not have that problem I think and thats why it sound good. Heres a crazy technique that I have'nt tried yet , using your digital or DAW multtrack software on the computer , record you music on the 4-track or VHS but do it live as the line inputs go into the 4-track and the line outputs go into the digital software program computer. Your using the tape recorder to sponge the sound into the digital track. I don't know if that is possible and if the mechanisms can handle that in the analog recorders but if so , then you have a perfect analog sound straight into your computer. I know professionally they have been doing that in pro studios for years and since the past 10 years have built a system that can handle the synchhing problems.
There's lots of ways around it and always new ideas! I used the vhs to bounce my 8 tracks onto from my Tascam 38, and then back to the recorder to free up tracks. Worked well with little to no degradation and kept it analogue
@@andypickeringmusic Yeah , the VHS is great sound , like I said the fatter the tape the fatter the sound. The Beatles as you know recorded on 1 inch tapes at abbey Roads i the 60s , same with Motown , thats why they have so much depth.
@@chinmeysway most of the big studios in the 50s and 60s including Motown and EMI were using 1 inch and would mixdown to quater inch and still sounded great. In 1968 the first 24 track recorder was built using 24 track. Since the musicians used all those 24 tracks in the early 70s' , it would have sounded even better if they used the whole spacing of the 2 inch for just 2 or 4 tracks. So in a sense the 1 inch in the 60s sounded better sonicly and more depth than the the 2 inch. Some engineer got around that problem in 1974 where he invented a sound EQ system which boosted the bass and depth of the recordings and it became a industry standard. Listen to Linda Rondstats 1975 album hits which was the first album to use it and you can hear the diffrence. Also there were certain 24 track recording machines that sounded superior to the rest of the industry that were speacily made for certain music artists to record on in France in 1973. They had a short a lifespan because of maintenece. Elton John in 1974 and some Motown acts like Gladys Knight and the pips and few other ariists used these machines for their big hits. Listen to Elton Johns 1974 songs and Galdy Knight "Midnight Train To Gerogia" and see what I mean. As we got into the late 70s , the 24 track recordings had punch and depth but sounded more dull due to over compression which was intentional to make the records sound louder on radio to compete.By the 1980s everyone swithced to digital to make them sound more clearer but lacked warmth in my opnion especially in percussions. Then when Grunge sound came around in the 1990s , Niravana went back to Analog 2 inch and the rest of the industry followed them and the recods sounded warm and fat again but for some reason they a little bit too much distortion , I think thta had to do with the machines and the engineers and the equipment they used , then after 2000 , everything went back to DAW and plugins in digital and everything sound like crap , ha ha.
they did this back in the day called it poor mans adat.4 month ago i got the boss micro br 4 track and it has a hifi setting it sick sound real good. i like it so much i wont t0 get the micro br br 80 8 track. wow nice song where can we buy y0ur music at?
As described in the outro I wouldn't say better, just subjectively the Revox has a coloured sound. It has less frequency response than the Vhs technically
Hi Andy just come across your video you can get extraordinary results from VHS but you really do need to use quality tapes preferably 2 hours 1s only & your music is absolutely amazing is there anyway of getting hold of your music catalogue ?
Hi David, thanks so much for your kind words! Thanks for the tip I'll look out for some! I'm going to do some more vhs audio mixdowns for sure after this.. My Bandcamp link is below where you can get access to all my releases from me and The Telmos (my band) You also can stream everything everywhere. If you want phisical media I have a telmos cd via the Bandcamp, or when I hit 1000 subs I'm going to start issuing some Eps on cassette. Thanks!
hi there is drop out's they are small small you can't pick them up wavelab can see them it's down to the tape and deck you use i will say some vhs decks are very good now sony one's are very good i am a big fan of betacam sp because of finding parts for them i was iike you once 15 years ago tying all the gear out
hi have a acc with tapeline i know a man who worked for the bbc you are right about 4 track i have one that's not working on the record side i have a working W1 6 track duel deck pimped to 3 3/4 ips on right side drive B play back only nice to see old gear used again i had to pimp a fostex m80 to 1/8 tape as head are bad i am having a youtube video's next year i having hard time with tec computer bad main computer main pcb not korking right bob's bit's
You'll be able to yes but dunno what machine you've got so you'll have to check the manual. The focusrite is just the source, makes no difference what the source is
VHS recorders stopped putting a headphone jack or VU audio input meters. How do you record in without basic audio meters like an even a cheap cassette deck would have. Please address this as no one talks about it. It’s a shame there is no headphone jack or meters.
What happens if you push the gain? I do hear softer transients and the sound is better glued together in the mix on the VHS. Other then that it sounds amazing! Thanks for sharing.
@@andypickeringmusic See "VHS modified as high quality audio recorder". By desoldering the wires to the heads I suppose, but this Master had to build a circuit to keep in sync motors and capstan, though. Maybe reducing the strength of the video heads signal or disconnecting only one, will have an impact. I haven't tried it yet...
Back in the 80s, people used to ask me how I was able to get such good sounding 4 track recordings, that sounded more like 8 or even 16 track recordings. This is how I did it.
@@3434565634thicker/wider tapes always yields better quality…. The quality of my cassette four track cassette recorder (Tascam Porta One) sounds way better than my eight track cassette recorder (Tascam 688 MK II MIDI)….. why? I’m recording eight tracks onto a tape that’s made for four tracks or side A stereo and side B stere….
@@Bernz66 I read somewhere that the tascam 688 is supposed to sound better than the 4 track because of the way that the tape heads are partitioned. At best, you're not supposed to be hearing a difference .I have a 688 and a 424 mkll
They sounded different. But nothing sounded bad. I bet there are some use cases where you could genuinely prefer the VHS reproduction than the perfection of the digital. Like a live recording or orchestral might favour digital. Fun concept to experiment with.
Great song, Great sound with the VHS, Which I have at home a couple of them, But what's the converter for? On your VHS there are no RCA connectors? Also thanks for explaining that thing with analog and digital, Here: th-cam.com/video/JE4wUwdysfA/w-d-xo.html I know it's trivial, The converters issue , But still is a good reminder.
@@andypickeringmusic was the best way to free up two more tracks…. Tracks 1/2 were stereo drums, bass on track 3 and rhythm guitar on track four…. Then record to the stereo VCR…. Take that mix and record it on tracks 1/2…. Another rhythm guitar on track 3…. Then guitar solo on track 4…. Another mix down to the VHS…. Then record that mix on the four track tracks 1/2…. That left tracks 3 and 4 for vocals…. You really had to push the levels near saturation to make sure there was no hiss noise….
@@Bernz66 that's basically what I use it for now bouncing a mix onto then recording back to tape to free up . Works a treat! In my latest video I do that
@@andypickeringmusic nice!!!! I still have my Tascam Porta One with all the tapes I recorded on….. fun times!!! People wonder why I don’t “look” at a screen when recording…. lol….
@Andy Pickering I've got Betamax one with HIFI sounds amazing. A channel called video99 does some great videos on video formats, well worth checking out.
What is the point of using regular compact cassette? you ruin the sound quality. With this type of music, the sound can quickly become too thin and too bright if you don't adjust correctly.
i recorded on my ASF Fisher deck from 1982 and a JVC VHS Super ET HIFI and i like the mid-low on the tape deck. think im liking the deck better. is it actually better? this deck was a the only dolby they made. the VHS is JVC model is HR-S-5902U
Having worked in radio for 26 years, many stations back in the 80s and 90s would record their on air output via lp hi-fi VHS tape. Really convenient and the tapes were just reused once the legal time of storage had elapsed. Great video.
I'd imagine that must have worked very well when FM broadcast receivers were limited to a maximum frequency response of 15kHz and only had a 60dB signal-to-noise ratio.
Very cool stuff! I recently got my old Tascam 4 track up and running again after 20 plus years. I have about 50 tapes of multitrack demos and masters that I've been sorting through from my teenage years. Hoping to transfer a few of the songs as back-up files in case I lose the tapes or they degrade. Just found your channel today, and now I'm subscribed. All the best!
@@ianmargolycz thanks so much, hope you enjoy the content:)
Spring reverb and tape ALWAYS sound good together! Love it.
Thanks so much! Yes it's very rich sounding for such a small unit
the tape really brought out the reverb , sounds very nostalgic !
VHS actually sounded like it had more depth to the sound, less flattened-out. I would say there is a slight difference, despite no obvious coloring. If you wanted to release an all-analog album (cassette/vinyl), it’s a no-brainer. 📼
That would be a great idea!
To me the VHS sounds "warmer" and just more glued together than the digital bounce.
I had an Hitachi VCR which had record levels back in the mid 90's. I recorded my LP's and CD's on VHS for long listening sessions like parties and my friends couldn't believe how good it sounded. Recorded in "Normal Speed" music really had an extra depth and power to the sound... Well done mate great video, brings back some great younger days.
I worked at a radio station in the late 80s. I wanted to take home a demo of a spot (advert) for further listening. Stunningly, the station had no working cassette deck, at that moment. But, it had several, very nice, 4-head (HIFI) VHS-decks. Being a film student at the time, I knew a suitable audio dub could be recorded onto VHS. I learned this the week before when dubbing video, for a school project. Though I captured sound, there was no video (due to a bad component video cable). Remembering this, I found a VHS cassette and dubbed my spot via 8-track (TASCAM 38) which had been connected by our engineer to one of the VHS decks. I played the dub on my own HIFI VHS deck (connected to my home stereo, featuring the excellent, PIONEER SX-1980). Fantastic sound!
Definitely. The Hi-Fi VHS soundtrack was capable of 20Hz-20kHz frequency range. Plus, the formulation of the tape was pretty outstanding inorder to hold the bandwidth of analog video, so the audio was like using a metal cassette tape to record with on a tape deck.
The format itself was capable of well in excess of a 20Hz to 20kHz frequency range, but there were plenty of machines out there that fell far short of this. I measured the Sharp HiFi Stereo machine I bought new (in 1990?) at 35Hz to 15kHz within 6dB and with a signal-to-noise ratio of around 70dB. The Technics cassette deck I had at the time was flat from 18Hz to 21kHz within 1.5dB with a TDK SA tape with an 80dB signal-to-noise ratio when using Dolby C. The compander system used by the HiFi Stereo format to reduce noise also led to very obvious pumping artifacts that weren't present on cassette with Dolby C. It would have taken a VERY bad cassette deck to have sounded any worse in my case.
A friend bought an identical Sharp VCR a few days after me and his was equally as awful, so this wasn't a one-off. Fortunately for him, he was already wearing hearing aids by this time so couldn't hear how terrible it sounded.
@@MrSlipstreem I watch my VHS movies on a JVC deck with an Onkyo Pro Logic amplifier. I’m still amazed at how well good ol 4 channel surround sound with an analog tape format. My favorite is to watch Saving Private Ryan on surround. I don’t have the most technical setup but it’s a great cinematic experience nonetheless.
@@brantisonfire it's outstanding quality when you compare the sound to the picture also on a beat up tape like in this video
@@andypickeringmusic It's like when they were doing VHS Hi-Fi they decided, "The video quality is pretty shit, so maybe we should over engineer the audio and people will really understand how great this format is." Except most people were still watching VHS on a mono VCR or they used the linear stereo track that had Dolby B NR. Outside of video/audiophiles, there weren't a whole lot of the general consumers of VHS that were using them to their full potential. I'm sure it wasnt cheap, either, to buy a Dolby Pro-Logic a/v receiver and have all the speakers to fully experience it.
I used to record all our gigs live off the desk, not pcm, analogue. I have 90 odd tapes that need to be digitized, although after 20 years, there is chance of tape deterioration via a fine white powder that seems to be corrosion.
Old tapes I would ff/rew several times before lifting off them, to make sure Transport is smooth. We used an old phono desk to record straight to vhs and despite crappy mics we got a quite passable demo..
Modern ones like this one have auto level controls, but they are more hard to find these days.
VHS sounds better to my ear. Wow! Definitely gonna try this out. Thanks for video and great ideas.
I love it, Andy. Really makes me wonder what could have been if someone made a VHS-based multitrack machine.
Pretty sure I saw an ad for one almost 30 years ago, Tascam?
Someone did. It was called ADAT. A multitrack digital format on VHS-based tapes.
You could probably time-sync a bunch of machines, with some crude hackery, quite easily. Whether or not it would be a reliable workhorse…. Is up for debate :) Then there’s the practical workflow limitations… like punching in and out, etc. The potential for the best analogue medium ever, is definitely there… but there’s no R&D budget to develop things further.
@@Rudolf_Edward ADAT recording isn't analog audio. It records digital information on the tape.
Akai did an analogue 12 track machine (MG1214) in the 80s, which originally was going to use video tapes, but that deal fell through and they weren't allowed the rights in the end, and so they had to get proprietary tapes made, which are very slightly different to broadcast video tapes. A GREAT sounding machine, which was available as a big all in one unit including a mixer, and a rackmount version without a mixer, and just the 12 track recorder (MG14D).
This is great, thank you; always been curious about doing things w vhs. The recording itself sounds good for tape, I’m impressed / inspired
Thanks so much! Good luck if you try it out, just remember it needs to be hifi vhs
i remember the first time copying a CD to VHS. Thinking it couldn't be true, that analog could be that effortlesly perfect. Masters for any digital copy after, for "mixtapes"...
VHS helical is deep layered into the tape. It's important to use very good quality tapes. I've got 11 now, audio spec from VHS and svhs no different. Sony never made VHS. There is a shortage of those block connectors now. It definitely improves the sound. Signal path. Analogue in. FM converteed via 2 carriers for left and right. Then it passes to output via a compander. Despite what people say, it is entirely analogue. But digitally controlled. Great video. Love the merantz!
KEEP UP THE GREAT JOB BRO!
I sent individual tracks that I had recorded with an old Tascam interface into a JVC Super VHS that I had around 20 years ago. I then recorded all of the individual tracks back into my daw. I used this tube channel I had at the time as well for all of the tracks. To this day its one of my favorite mixes I've ever done. It really sounds pretty good.
Sounds like a great technique, unique setups like that are so much more interesting
I remember a friend of mine recording a Sting concert (from a TV broadcast I think) to a VHS, and the sound quality was amazing. It was early 90's, the CD only recently appeared and cassettes were what everyone used.
Yeah it's a proper hidden gem audio format!
woo hoo! Hell yeah!
Cheers Chris! Enjoyed your video on the subject too 📼
About 30 years ago I managed to get hold of a bit of a knackered JVC HI-F VHS with a go-to feature (tape counter) so as long as you rewound the tape back to the start you could rely on landing at the the right point on the tape if you entered the right tape counter point on the tape.
Me and my brother set out to record his record collection on to VHS HI-Fi but in LP mode, meaning 8 hours of playback. We did graphics with an Amiga, noted all the counter points in a book.
It was like I had my very own jukebox, the sound quality was as good as the source it came from and that was about 30 years ago, broadcast quality in your own home.
I still marvel at how good VHS Hi-Fi for it's time........ Then digital came along and took the fun out of everything analogue, but I'm not saying we should go back I'm just saying it was more fun.
VHS is perfect for mid song recording bounces without any generation loss! I use it all the time!
Fantastic recording and performance Andy. I still have an old hifi VHS recorder. They're great machines. Kind regards. Paul.
Thanks Paul! Yes what a fantastic idea for home studio!
In 1995 I bought a Grundig GV 540 hifi and always used it as a tape recorder. It was better than my Technics RS TR 373 and had a longer recording time. The playback on it was perfect, but one day the recorder broke and I bought another one.
Due to an error, I recorded these audio tracks without an image signal. When playing on my new Philips SVHS VR 1600, distortions occurred because the autotracking no longer worked without a picture sync signal. That didn't bother the Grundig recorder, but the Philips (JVC clone) needed an image signal to function properly.
Il VHS e' un'ottima scelta,perché ha un suono praticamente perfetto!.hai un bel videoregistratore
I’ve heard about this before. Cool video. You must be a pro on the four track. Your original recordings sound really good!
Thanks! Yes I've been recording on them for ages
Nice song mate
Great video VHS sounds the best to me
Sounds really good. It sounds just as good as the digital to me. I recall, back in the early 90s when I was using 4 track because that is all we had, when my friend bought a digital vcr for that purpose. Of course back then anything digital was automatically supposed to be great. Little did we know😎
Haha you thought it was digital?
Tbf there's something called Nicam which is digital I think. The science is mad behind it all
@@andypickeringmusic ya. The dude claimed it was a digital VCR. I don't know. Ha. Maybe like adat machines and the like used tape? I don't know. But hey. Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays and Happy new year Andy!!
Love the song 👍
Awesome song!!
Nice one. I recently bought a couple of vcr's to do some pre computer multitracking like I used to back in the day. I really like the fact you need to do the whole track in one take. Its kind of like looping a whole song. Its good to keep these old processes just for the fun and nostalgia element. Also not being able to drop in mid song is a good thing to practice.
That's a very unusual way to do it! Nice haha
I had a number of Sony and JVC hifi VHS in the past (in fact is till have them). The only thing I noticed from the format (irrespective of machine brand) is that on quiet pads you can get a weird fluttering buzzy sound so I never used it for mastering as it drove me mad. I also had the Sony pcm F1 which was digital. It sounded good for the mid eighties but tapes could deteriorate quite quickly. I stuck to 1/4 inch reels (Studer C37's, Revox G36 and A77 as well as Teac a7300) as I knew what I would get back from them. I still use a Studer A80 and an A807 to pass mixes and single tracks through and back to the DAW as this seems to be the ultimate solution.
That does sound like a good solution! The c37 is pretty much my dream mixdown deck. I like my a77 (although far from perfect!) I think I've got lucky with my vhs as there's no noise at all
It always sounded good to me especially with tube amp monoblocks in stereo i actually remember a vcr at circuit city i believe .anyhow on the box it said better soubd than digital i can tell you this one of the best sounding sources i ever heard was a vcr tape i found at a thrift store it had 1video on the whole tape and that was it not even interview just 1video it was the moulin rouge lady marmalade little kim .cristina aguilera ,pink and afew more .well the quality was amazing clear ,very real,punchy ive always thought tape even cassatte at times has a realism the other formats dont have
Great Andy! Allow an old timer to chime in. I'm a drummer that likes recording audio. Please take my criticisms lightly as I may be becoming senile and damaged by Rap music, lol! Your song is a hit but I feel like the vocals are competing with the guitar eq wise and separation wise. Not hard to fix. I'd want to use a BBE sonic maximizer recording your vocals and a bit on overall mixdown. There are plenty of BBE examples and a/b comparisons on youtube. I came here for VCR info and got caught up in your talent instead, lol. I've enjoyed every bit of you and thank you so much.
Thanks for the compliment on the song. I mean that's the whole point I guess! I'll certainly look into those sonic maximisers, I mean I'm only a home Analog recording hobbyist and not a professional engineer. This song/mix was not much more than a demo
yes you are right there i find it's better to use betacam sp like on the sony betacam sp 75p
i have tryed them all over the years
I did the same in my home studio back in the mid 90’s for about a year - after getting annoyed how hissy my Fostex X-26 four-track was all the time, I used my stereo video recorder (Nicam?? Can’t remember) to master my compositions, before MiniDisc became affordable. It sounded great, but of course - not exactly portable 😂
To be honest, there is a slight difference, but I highlight the enjoy of making vintage records for the sake of musical experimentation. Good gob!
The diagonal heads on the vcr is the video heads the audio head is sitting on the side of and is linear :) but the sound on vhs is digital :)
Hifi vhs records the audio diagonally with the video and is analogue. Regular vhs records linear
@@andypickeringmusic My 6 head nicam stereo vcr has 6 vidioheads in the drum and the audio head at the side of that. but that could be the mono head for backward compability
@@VattenDemonen You're right in your last comment but confused about the rest. The mono linear track is only there for backward compatibility.
All VHS Hi-Fi is recorded across the tape in diagonal stripes just like the video. This is why such machines are often described as 6-head. This means that on the head drum there are 2 heads for SP video, 2 heads for Hi-Fi audio, and 2 heads for LP/EP video.
hi fi vhs 의 새로운 사용법에 대해 알게되어 감사합니다.
Andy, back years ago, 1980’s, I used to master all my tapes over to VHS HiFi…….I was recording on a Tascam Studio 8,,,388,,,I had a pioneer 1050 I believe, and would master to it also……Much easier on the old Zenith VhsHiFi..I still have those tapes today, and they still sound excellent……The VHS did have VU meters also…..I record in Logic now a days, but, I still kick down my masters to VHS…..Their may have been a compression scheme on the older vhs decks………Today I use an old Sony 1610 pro deck……great if you can find a nice one in good condition
Arr man a hifi vhs with VUs would be amazing! Although I heard from someone that has owned a lot that the bells and whistles versions are not as reliable
I read that the hi-fi track on VHS can't reproduce the sound intensity increments perfectly, that is, if an audio was so quiet and kept getting louder or the other way around, it wouldn't sound as consistent as digital. I haven't tested this myself, but VHS hi-fi is suitable for the audio track in movies whose dynamic range is already compressed to comfortably listen to at home.
Yes you are probably right there. Good for mixing low dynamic range/compressed tunes
Try Teac's CD recorder, you just hook any analog source to it via RCA and set your level same as a cassette deck. Lets you record up to 79 minutes of audio then you hit 'finalize' and boom it's a regular CD you do whatever you want with. I record what I'm streaming, use my DAC's analog outs as the source. The recorder and blank CD's are 1/10th the cost of a R2R deck/tape and better SQ.
Great idea!
Lots more brightness and sibilance in the digital track
Not always a good thing!
Damn dude the tape is lovely is really warms up the reverb on the vocals and makes it sound almost haunting , def gonna have to try this ! Wonder how Betamax tape would sound ?
@@Batsinthebelltower I've never used beta but I hear it'll be just as good on the hifi versions
The fatter the tape the more dynamic and full the sound can be , thats why the the VHS sounds so good. I listen to the digital and VHS in the video with my headphones and I hear no diffrence so theres no use to it but what its excellent for would be bouncing the 4 track to VHS and then back into the 4 track , the result is you have more tracks and won't lose the orignal recording tracks on the master and keep it so you can go back to it. The method I used for years was bouncing to a good Sony CD recorder and then back to the 4-Track. The results were very good but you an hear a tinge of thiness but it was passable but if you use the VHS then it should be better and fatter sound. The only reason I never used that technique was many of the VHS recorders use a limiter and some compression so the sound might be degraded when the limiter comes in and drops the sound levels up and down so I think your VHS recorder does not have that problem I think and thats why it sound good. Heres a crazy technique that I have'nt tried yet , using your digital or DAW multtrack software on the computer , record you music on the 4-track or VHS but do it live as the line inputs go into the 4-track and the line outputs go into the digital software program computer. Your using the tape recorder to sponge the sound into the digital track. I don't know if that is possible and if the mechanisms can handle that in the analog recorders but if so , then you have a perfect analog sound straight into your computer. I know professionally they have been doing that in pro studios for years and since the past 10 years have built a system that can handle the synchhing problems.
There's lots of ways around it and always new ideas! I used the vhs to bounce my 8 tracks onto from my Tascam 38, and then back to the recorder to free up tracks. Worked well with little to no degradation and kept it analogue
@@andypickeringmusic Yeah , the VHS is great sound , like I said the fatter the tape the fatter the sound. The Beatles as you know recorded on 1 inch tapes at abbey Roads i the 60s , same with Motown , thats why they have so much depth.
@@danielbanic3738 well it was maybe two inch tape? Or wait. Did two inch come out a bit later..
@@chinmeysway most of the big studios in the 50s and 60s including Motown and EMI were using 1 inch and would mixdown to quater inch and still sounded great. In 1968 the first 24 track recorder was built using 24 track. Since the musicians used all those 24 tracks in the early 70s' , it would have sounded even better if they used the whole spacing of the 2 inch for just 2 or 4 tracks. So in a sense the 1 inch in the 60s sounded better sonicly and more depth than the the 2 inch. Some engineer got around that problem in 1974 where he invented a sound EQ system which boosted the bass and depth of the recordings and it became a industry standard. Listen to Linda Rondstats 1975 album hits which was the first album to use it and you can hear the diffrence. Also there were certain 24 track recording machines that sounded superior to the rest of the industry that were speacily made for certain music artists to record on in France in 1973. They had a short a lifespan because of maintenece. Elton John in 1974 and some Motown acts like Gladys Knight and the pips and few other ariists used these machines for their big hits. Listen to Elton Johns 1974 songs and Galdy Knight "Midnight Train To Gerogia" and see what I mean. As we got into the late 70s , the 24 track recordings had punch and depth but sounded more dull due to over compression which was intentional to make the records sound louder on radio to compete.By the 1980s everyone swithced to digital to make them sound more clearer but lacked warmth in my opnion especially in percussions. Then when Grunge sound came around in the 1990s , Niravana went back to Analog 2 inch and the rest of the industry followed them and the recods sounded warm and fat again but for some reason they a little bit too much distortion , I think thta had to do with the machines and the engineers and the equipment they used , then after 2000 , everything went back to DAW and plugins in digital and everything sound like crap , ha ha.
I found a Panasonic vhs recorder with analog VU meters for $20 at a thrift store....it's big!!
Brilliant! Good luck with it
they did this back in the day called it poor mans adat.4 month ago i got the boss micro br 4 track and it has a hifi setting it sick sound real good. i like it so much i wont t0 get the micro br br 80 8 track. wow nice song where can we buy y0ur music at?
Thanks! Music is available to buy on bandcamp
Great experiment Andy, to be honest I can’t hear any difference between the two 😊(listening on headphones). Does your revox sound better?
As described in the outro I wouldn't say better, just subjectively the Revox has a coloured sound. It has less frequency response than the Vhs technically
@@andypickeringmusic I think I might need to invest a tenner into a hifi VHS deck and try this myself now! Thanks for posting 🙂
@@wehappyfewmusic great idea!
Very nice! People discredit VHS because the video quality sucks, but it's a very decent option for audio!
Really good! I can't see a down side stand alone
Search for Ronnie Pickering! You are Andy Pickering 😅😅😅
😂
Always use SP speed and use high grade tape.
How did you connect a VCR to Clarett?
The same way you connect any audio source
@@andypickeringmusic RCA to stereo XLR(or 1/4) cable? I just don't know how to connect audio source to it.. I only connected guitars or mics
@@bobkatz9021 RCA out to 1/4" Jack will work great
Hi Andy just come across your video you can get extraordinary results from VHS but you really do need to use quality tapes preferably 2 hours 1s only & your music is absolutely amazing is there anyway of getting hold of your music catalogue ?
Hi David, thanks so much for your kind words! Thanks for the tip I'll look out for some! I'm going to do some more vhs audio mixdowns for sure after this..
My Bandcamp link is below where you can get access to all my releases from me and The Telmos (my band) You also can stream everything everywhere. If you want phisical media I have a telmos cd via the Bandcamp, or when I hit 1000 subs I'm going to start issuing some Eps on cassette. Thanks!
@@andypickeringmusic Thank you Andy I will check that out & looking forward to watching more of your videos .
@@davidwilliams2840 Brill, think I've done around 20 to date!
@@andypickeringmusic You have more talent in your little finger then most artists of today & you do have an amazing singing voice too
@@davidwilliams2840 thanks so much! Please tell the people that run the industry haha
hi there is drop out's they are small small you can't pick them up wavelab can see them it's down to the tape and deck you use i will say
some vhs decks are very good now sony one's are very good i am a big fan of betacam sp because of finding parts for them
i was iike you once 15 years ago tying all the gear out
Drop outs from the VHS? The drop outs are already on the 4 track recording. It's a bitch for that
hi have a acc with tapeline
i know a man who worked for the bbc
you are right about 4 track i have
one that's not working on the record side
i have a working W1 6 track duel deck
pimped to 3 3/4 ips on right side drive B play
back only
nice to see old gear used again i had to pimp
a fostex m80 to 1/8 tape as head are bad
i am having a youtube video's next year
i having hard time with tec computer
bad main computer main pcb not korking right bob's bit's
apparently the vcr needs to be 4 head hifi
Hey men, can you connect the focusrite to the vcr for recording on the VCR? I've tried but I'm stuck. It isn't recording anything on the vcr
You'll be able to yes but dunno what machine you've got so you'll have to check the manual. The focusrite is just the source, makes no difference what the source is
VHS recorders stopped putting a headphone jack or VU audio input meters. How do you record in without basic audio meters like an even a cheap cassette deck would have. Please address this as no one talks about it. It’s a shame there is no headphone jack or meters.
Some have meters, mine doesn't and it's trial and error. I've never made it peak and it always comes out loud
So VHS audio is not digital? I always thought it was not analog..
Yes it's anaolg (technically)
What happens if you push the gain? I do hear softer transients and the sound is better glued together in the mix on the VHS. Other then that it sounds amazing! Thanks for sharing.
I've never had any issues pushing the gain but I would assume that it wouldnt be nice like reel to reel if you did go too far!
The VHS sounds so silky:)
Thanks Tony I agree!
Everything is proven online how clean out a mode switch in a VCR player
Apparently, disconnecting the video heads makes it even better...
How?
@@andypickeringmusic See "VHS modified as high quality audio recorder". By desoldering the wires to the heads I suppose, but this Master had to build a circuit to keep in sync motors and capstan, though. Maybe reducing the strength of the video heads signal or disconnecting only one, will have an impact. I haven't tried it yet...
Back in the 80s, people used to ask me how I was able to get such good sounding 4 track recordings, that sounded more like 8 or even 16 track recordings. This is how I did it.
Awesome! They can be brilliant machines
Have you tried this with metal cassette tape?
As in mixing down to chrome cassette? Have done it in the past, good quality machines are needed and way more expensive than hifi vhs
@@andypickeringmusic
You're right! Just found out that super vhs machines excels over cassettes in fidelity
@@3434565634thicker/wider tapes always yields better quality…. The quality of my cassette four track cassette recorder (Tascam Porta One) sounds way better than my eight track cassette recorder (Tascam 688 MK II MIDI)….. why? I’m recording eight tracks onto a tape that’s made for four tracks or side A stereo and side B stere….
@@Bernz66
I read somewhere that the tascam 688 is supposed to sound better than the 4 track because of the way that the tape heads are partitioned. At best, you're not supposed to be hearing a difference .I have a 688 and a 424 mkll
The only drawback on VHS HIFI is mistracking or dropouts. When that happens, the HIFI audio is heavily distorted…
Hopefully that doesn't happen on mine!
keep in mind that hi fi vhs tape is inferior to cd audio
I'm not saying anything about it being worse or better than cd. But it's a good quality obscure overlooked format nevertheless
They sounded different. But nothing sounded bad. I bet there are some use cases where you could genuinely prefer the VHS reproduction than the perfection of the digital. Like a live recording or orchestral might favour digital. Fun concept to experiment with.
Absolutely! I guess over all apart from the pretty much lossless quality, I like the fact its all Analogue still
Everything is proven people keep there mode switch clean out like they should people will never have VCR players eating there tapes
😆 vhs movies more fixable with Scotch tape it starts playing again with out no problem's try fixing it
Great song, Great sound with the VHS, Which I have at home a couple of them, But what's the converter for? On your VHS there are no RCA connectors? Also thanks for explaining that thing with analog and digital, Here:
th-cam.com/video/JE4wUwdysfA/w-d-xo.html
I know it's trivial, The converters issue , But still is a good reminder.
The input to the vhs is scart only so you need a converter. It has rca out though
@@andypickeringmusic what’s scart?
@@MaxOakland standard input for audio visual pre hdmi
VHS sounds better. Vocals are more pronounced, whole mix sounds thicker with more presence.
I used to do this back in the day before computers and digital tape recorders
It's really great sound
@@andypickeringmusic was the best way to free up two more tracks…. Tracks 1/2 were stereo drums, bass on track 3 and rhythm guitar on track four…. Then record to the stereo VCR…. Take that mix and record it on tracks 1/2…. Another rhythm guitar on track 3…. Then guitar solo on track 4…. Another mix down to the VHS…. Then record that mix on the four track tracks 1/2…. That left tracks 3 and 4 for vocals…. You really had to push the levels near saturation to make sure there was no hiss noise….
@@Bernz66 that's basically what I use it for now bouncing a mix onto then recording back to tape to free up . Works a treat! In my latest video I do that
@@andypickeringmusic nice!!!! I still have my Tascam Porta One with all the tapes I recorded on….. fun times!!! People wonder why I don’t “look” at a screen when recording…. lol….
@@andypickeringmusic watching that vid now…. Love your content
VHS sounds better. The question is, should I necessarily record? Isn't it enough to pass it through the IN and OUT?
That wouldn't make any difference
I say VHS is Fatter
The drum is just for the picture, the audio is a separate head.
Not on hifi vhs, works differently to regular vhs which yes has a separate head
@Andy Pickering I've got Betamax one with HIFI sounds amazing. A channel called video99 does some great videos on video formats, well worth checking out.
What is the point of using regular compact cassette? you ruin the sound quality. With this type of music, the sound can quickly become too thin and too bright if you don't adjust correctly.
What's the point? I enjoy using the machine that's the point and I like the way it sounds
i recorded on my ASF Fisher deck from 1982 and a JVC VHS Super ET HIFI and i like the mid-low on the tape deck. think im liking the deck better. is it actually better? this deck was a the only dolby they made. the VHS is JVC model is HR-S-5902U
Sounds like a good tape deck and as long as its "hifi" it'll have been recording audio in the best quality way