GREAT question. This is an approximation because we fill a tub half full of perlite, add a few scoops of coco coir and mix it up from there. I'd say it's 80:20 by weight, but the coir mixes in with the perlite and fills some of the spaces. Once mixed, it should look like mostly perlite with a bit of coir mixed in - but I'd err on the side of a bit more coir if you're in doubt, because when the mix gets too lean it doesn't retain as much nutrient.
Honestly, if I were you I would not be growing black pines. I would look for something that thrives in your local conditions, of which there are likely many things. Premna is a classic tropical species. As for the media - anything that doesn't rot, such that aeration of the soil is maintained is your goal. Perlite would work well, and perlite/coco might be fine.
I find that the perlite gets blown (wind) around a bit ... is there anything I can do to reduce/prevent this? Maybe add some pumice as a layer on top of the soil?
Yes, or lava. As long as it stays wet it doesn't normally blow around too much, but it's an issue. You could also top it off with a slightly heavier mix with coir - to retain more moisture at the surface.
This is a super dry set up--the baskets instead of pots, the medium mostly coarse perlite and pumice. How are these watered? Daily automatic drip line? Twice daily?
Yes, pine trees like dry root conditions. In the six inch baskets with medium perlite and coir we water once every 2-4 days, depending on weather and season. Perlite holds 3-5 times it's weight in water, so it is simultaneously allowing good aeration and a long dry-down cycle.
Oh, good queston. My first batch I used akadama:pumice:lava. But with this mix as long as I've gone is the three year mark. However, I don't think the years are as important as the transition - once you get to the point where the trunk is the size you want, then transitioning to a soil that creates more moderate growth is better.
@@Bonsaify also perlite breaks down after a few years, why it's not used to ramify older trees, you need 5 years on them and it won't last that long, maybe not even the akadama will. I grow my JBP & JRP in perlite & peat for first 2 years, then air pots and pumice/lava/composted manure, telperion mix.
Now I understand that Japanese black pines like to dry out in between watering but how often would you say would you water them in this type soil? I know your in the Bay Area and it’s cooler there, I’m in the Central Valley where we regularly get 90-100 degrees days in the summer and I’m a little worried about letting my tree dry out to much
Yeah, I'd expect daily in those conditions, however keep in mind that trees often have heat dormancy - so they may not absorb as much water when it's over 90 degrees. TBH, in our operation it's variable - both by the weather and the tree. Some trees absorb more water and need watering more frequently. But generally we water once every two days in the perlite mixture...it's just that I'm finding that as the trees start to fill the pots with roots watering seems to need to be more frequent.
Oh thank you for this! I just recieved 3 black pine seedlings and need to pot them up tommorow. Question. I bought a darling little pine seedling at a yard sale this spring and it's in a pot with what looks like garden soil, gets very hard. Would it be a good idea to pot that one up now in some bonsai soil too if I didn't cut any roots, not wash roots leave a little of the original soil?
This is my standard mix for propagation, cuttings and young nursery material where I want vigorous growth. But I have not done extensive testing like this on other species.
Different species prefer differing root conditions, but generally speaking, I've been finding that 80%perlite/ 20% coco is a faster medium for young growth than regular bonsai soil, or any other mix I've tested.
@@Bonsaify Gotcha, and does it provide enough aeration for roots? I've heard people say root growth is one of the benefits of using pumice for growing trees out.
Not to get too far down a rabbit hole - but different sources of pumice can be different. The perlite does provide aeration (otherwise pines wouldn't like it). Honestly I'm not sure what's going on with the pumice. According to references in "Soilless Culture" (2nd Ed. pg 264) fresh pumice can "leach high concentrations of Na" e.g. it may be spiking the sodium content in your container. Hence washing it before hand with agitation can alleviate the risk. (the sodium being soluble.) What we are seeing is that the aeration alone does not foster good root growth. You need to consider the moisture retention of the particles (perlite retains 3-4 times its weight). You can test the moisture retention by weighing the dry particles and then wetting them, waiting a set amount of time (like 10 minutes) and then weighing them again to see what amount of water is retained. You should also consider other factors locally and in your routine. ..
hello friend, i don't know english so i use translator. I see in the video that you are discussing soil mixtures, would you write me exactly what you use for compacting plants and for large growth? Will the same mix also work with Chinese junipers? Thank you very much for your answer and best regards Łukasz
Hi Lukasz, for fast growth we use 80% perlite and 20% coco coir. For older bonsai we use 1:1:1 Akadama:Pumice:Lava. These are not the only soils that will give good results, but they are what we use due to a mix of costs and other factors.
Thank you for the research, i was wondering what would be best mix as i am repotting a 1 year old pine and thought i might as well improve its medium as it was test subject of my own (currently in river sand / fine sand / bonsai soil ) the growth, its a little slow although the needles are almost twice as thick as the other sapplings needles, length and trunk thickest no different .I was thinking coco and pumice as the new medium but will try perlite instead of pumice and will use it for 1 year, lets see what happens!🌲
The key seems to be lots of aeration in the roots. But, a lot of aeration also slow the root division even though it paradoxically increases the vigor of the tree. So the best method may actually be finer soil on the bottom (still like bonsai soil though) coarser perlite in the middle and finer soil on the top. Do keep in mind however that the stronger the growth, the harder it is to work with.
@@Bonsaify I have gone with coco pet on the outside of a netted pot(placed a smaller pot inside and lined the outside with it), then used perlite with the sappling in the middle , i added a small layer of pumice on top to hold down the perlite, soo i'll have the fine grain at the perimeter of the net pot, i just finish 5mins ago , i live in south africa so have 2more months of growing period, this plant was doing the worst out of my 6 will see where it ends up after the short duration of the two months. i think there will be noticeable difference.
Would you please give the ratio of perlite to coco coir for your third example which you say is the best mix for fast growing, healthy black pine. I am confused because your least beneficial mix and your most beneficial mix seems to be exactly the same, given your time stamps. Thank you for producing these many videos.
4: 1 by volume coarse perlite (4 parts) and coco coir (1 part) - the difference from one to the other was that the worse one has pumice in the bottom and smaller particle size of perlite, while the other had no pumice and larger perlite (minimum of 1/16", 1mm).
@@Bonsaify Thank you for the quick response! I have been growing in a mixture of chicken grit, turface, and a small amount of oildri. However, I think I should have used perlite instead of the oildri because I think the salts build up quicker with the oildri and causing some yellowing of the needles. I place the pines in dollar store colanders. I will put a batch of seedlings into your mixture. What would you recommend instead of coco coir if I cannot source it? Thanks again for taking the time to respond and for the effort it takes to make the videos.
Hi - turface has been shown by multiple users to be poor for plant growth. I would switch that out, and Oildri is just small pumice, which may or may not work well depending on the source and amount of residual salts. Perlite is inert, which allows you to dispense with the questions about residual salts that many components bring up. Peat Moss is a good sub for coco coir. Either can be found normally at hydro shops, and certainly peat moss is available at home centers. (it's the basis of most "potting soil")
@@Bonsaify Thank you, again. I will stop using turface and, if I cannot find coco coir, I shall use peat moss. I look forward to getting this next batch done.
Pretty crazy to me that they thrive off of a substrate that doesn’t really resemble my idea of fertile soil… do you use fertilizer in these baskets? Perlite and coconut fiber doesn’t really add up to me!
Hehe. Yeah regular fertilizer is needed. But in technical terms this is "soilless culture". It's been around for a long time. Chances are if you eat tomatoes from the produce section of a supermarket, that they are grown using the same type of mix. Bonsai culture is not the same as good garden soil, that's for sure.
I don't grow many of them. A friend has one in standard bonsai mix and it does fine. The three small ones I have are growing slowly in a nursery mix (not mine.) The roots are very large, but I can't discern a preference for a particular soil based on what I have experienced.
You didnt mention different climates, would this work as well in different places in the world. Your 3 "different" soils were almost the same. I would have liked to see a few more choices as a test and options for different climates.
Ah, well don't forget, I'm not "trying to fail" so the test was among my top candidates, not a bunch of things that I knew wouldn't work. As for different climates - I can't say for sure!
Yes, good point, and it is very irritating too. Best to keep perlite damp at least when working with it. Although it's hard to sift when too wet. Wear a dust mask! Or purchase perlite that is already clean and the right size.
Best video on young pines I've seen !!!
@Bonsaify What is the ratio for mix 3? Thanks.
growing pines in warmer climes may be different for substrate composition...I'm thinking more Acadamia and bark fines may help in hot summers.
Loved the video, very informative and straight to the point. It going to help me grow my new bb aleppo pine trees. Thx for the info.
How much of the difference is genetic variation and how much is the soil.
Good question, small sample size. But while genetics do play a role, soil makeup is important also.
80/20 Perlite/Coco Coir by volume or by weight?
thanks,
Rob
GREAT question. This is an approximation because we fill a tub half full of perlite, add a few scoops of coco coir and mix it up from there. I'd say it's 80:20 by weight, but the coir mixes in with the perlite and fills some of the spaces. Once mixed, it should look like mostly perlite with a bit of coir mixed in - but I'd err on the side of a bit more coir if you're in doubt, because when the mix gets too lean it doesn't retain as much nutrient.
very interesting. would you expect the results to be similar for other pines?
Yes, I would, as most pine species that I've worked with seem to prefer similar conditions - however I've done no testing on older plants.
Eric what brand of coarse perlite you using?
In my city in indonesia.. we have more rainy days maybe more than 20 rainy days every month. What media can you suggest for this condition?
Honestly, if I were you I would not be growing black pines. I would look for something that thrives in your local conditions, of which there are likely many things. Premna is a classic tropical species.
As for the media - anything that doesn't rot, such that aeration of the soil is maintained is your goal. Perlite would work well, and perlite/coco might be fine.
I find that the perlite gets blown (wind) around a bit ... is there anything I can do to reduce/prevent this? Maybe add some pumice as a layer on top of the soil?
Yes, or lava. As long as it stays wet it doesn't normally blow around too much, but it's an issue. You could also top it off with a slightly heavier mix with coir - to retain more moisture at the surface.
Oooh, this is really interesting. Thank you so much for sharing, I know what I am doing on my next repot now! 😀👍
This is a super dry set up--the baskets instead of pots, the medium mostly coarse perlite and pumice. How are these watered? Daily automatic drip line? Twice daily?
Yes, pine trees like dry root conditions. In the six inch baskets with medium perlite and coir we water once every 2-4 days, depending on weather and season. Perlite holds 3-5 times it's weight in water, so it is simultaneously allowing good aeration and a long dry-down cycle.
@@Bonsaify what the high temperature is in your area in the hot month?
Is pine & cedar same??
I know about Deodar (they are tall)
No, two different genus. But as for growing conditions, they are similar.
This soil is good for my ficus??? Pls.anser me.
This is the same mix - yes - 80% perlite and 20% coco coir. You can also mix in bark, but we grow ficus in this mix with good results.
Thanks this is very helpful.
Quick question until how many years you keep your pines on those mix?
Oh, good queston. My first batch I used akadama:pumice:lava. But with this mix as long as I've gone is the three year mark. However, I don't think the years are as important as the transition - once you get to the point where the trunk is the size you want, then transitioning to a soil that creates more moderate growth is better.
@@Bonsaify also perlite breaks down after a few years, why it's not used to ramify older trees, you need 5 years on them and it won't last that long, maybe not even the akadama will. I grow my JBP & JRP in perlite & peat for first 2 years, then air pots and pumice/lava/composted manure, telperion mix.
Now I understand that Japanese black pines like to dry out in between watering but how often would you say would you water them in this type soil? I know your in the Bay Area and it’s cooler there, I’m in the Central Valley where we regularly get 90-100 degrees days in the summer and I’m a little worried about letting my tree dry out to much
Yeah, I'd expect daily in those conditions, however keep in mind that trees often have heat dormancy - so they may not absorb as much water when it's over 90 degrees. TBH, in our operation it's variable - both by the weather and the tree. Some trees absorb more water and need watering more frequently. But generally we water once every two days in the perlite mixture...it's just that I'm finding that as the trees start to fill the pots with roots watering seems to need to be more frequent.
@@Bonsaify thanks for the help and great videos
Eric. Thanks for your video on Soil. Please Take a Look At Bonsai Jack for your Soil. He lets you do a special Soil Mix to your liking. Enjoy. Greg
Oh thank you for this! I just recieved 3 black pine seedlings and need to pot them up tommorow. Question. I bought a darling little pine seedling at a yard sale this spring and it's in a pot with what looks like garden soil, gets very hard. Would it be a good idea to pot that one up now in some bonsai soil too if I didn't cut any roots, not wash roots leave a little of the original soil?
Slip potting is normally safe any time - e.g put it in a slightly larger pot with minimal root trimming and disturbance.
I'm curious if you've done a similar soil test for deciduous trees.
This is my standard mix for propagation, cuttings and young nursery material where I want vigorous growth. But I have not done extensive testing like this on other species.
Hi Eric how big is the perlite in the last pine about 10mm?
10mm is the on the larger end, you can use a mix of sizes, 3mm-10mm, smaller than that and it starts to retain too much water for pines.
Beautiful bonsai
Hi, where I can buy this kind of pots, what is the original name, thanks
Finofil 6" round pond basket. It's from a company in the UK.
Hola, que sustrato usas? Saludos
Hi, the video is about that topic. The conclusion is perlite and coco coir is better in a particular configuration for these pines.
@@Bonsaify ok gracias
Would this apply to growing out other trees like maples?
Different species prefer differing root conditions, but generally speaking, I've been finding that 80%perlite/ 20% coco is a faster medium for young growth than regular bonsai soil, or any other mix I've tested.
@@Bonsaify Gotcha, and does it provide enough aeration for roots? I've heard people say root growth is one of the benefits of using pumice for growing trees out.
Not to get too far down a rabbit hole - but different sources of pumice can be different. The perlite does provide aeration (otherwise pines wouldn't like it). Honestly I'm not sure what's going on with the pumice. According to references in "Soilless Culture" (2nd Ed. pg 264) fresh pumice can "leach high concentrations of Na" e.g. it may be spiking the sodium content in your container. Hence washing it before hand with agitation can alleviate the risk. (the sodium being soluble.) What we are seeing is that the aeration alone does not foster good root growth. You need to consider the moisture retention of the particles (perlite retains 3-4 times its weight). You can test the moisture retention by weighing the dry particles and then wetting them, waiting a set amount of time (like 10 minutes) and then weighing them again to see what amount of water is retained.
You should also consider other factors locally and in your routine. ..
@@Bonsaify Thank you so much for the detailed reply, I appreciate it! And as always, good work with the videos!
If a seedling has hard soil, you can remove 100% of the soil and put it in perlite or just put it on top until the root deepens.
hello friend, i don't know english so i use translator. I see in the video that you are discussing soil mixtures, would you write me exactly what you use for compacting plants and for large growth? Will the same mix also work with Chinese junipers? Thank you very much for your answer and best regards Łukasz
Hi Lukasz, for fast growth we use 80% perlite and 20% coco coir. For older bonsai we use 1:1:1 Akadama:Pumice:Lava. These are not the only soils that will give good results, but they are what we use due to a mix of costs and other factors.
Thanks :)
what fraction of perlite near juniper and pine trees?
Hmm, not sure what you are asking.
Fraction perlite near pine nad fraction perlite near juniperus
60 peat 30 silver sand 10 perlite and my trees growing lovely
Glad to hear it! Watering, weather, fertilizer and many other factors play into the ideal soil mix - if you found something that works stick with it!
Can you do a video please of you mixing potting soil
th-cam.com/video/jaTZHXKPFeU/w-d-xo.html
Thank you for the research, i was wondering what would be best mix as i am repotting a 1 year old pine and thought i might as well improve its medium as it was test subject of my own (currently in river sand / fine sand / bonsai soil ) the growth, its a little slow although the needles are almost twice as thick as the other sapplings needles, length and trunk thickest no different .I was thinking coco and pumice as the new medium but will try perlite instead of pumice and will use it for 1 year, lets see what happens!🌲
The key seems to be lots of aeration in the roots. But, a lot of aeration also slow the root division even though it paradoxically increases the vigor of the tree. So the best method may actually be finer soil on the bottom (still like bonsai soil though) coarser perlite in the middle and finer soil on the top.
Do keep in mind however that the stronger the growth, the harder it is to work with.
@@Bonsaify I have gone with coco pet on the outside of a netted pot(placed a smaller pot inside and lined the outside with it), then used perlite with the sappling in the middle , i added a small layer of pumice on top to hold down the perlite, soo i'll have the fine grain at the perimeter of the net pot, i just finish 5mins ago , i live in south africa so have 2more months of growing period, this plant was doing the worst out of my 6 will see where it ends up after the short duration of the two months. i think there will be noticeable difference.
Would you please give the ratio of perlite to coco coir for your third example which you say is the best mix for fast growing, healthy black pine. I am confused because your least beneficial mix and your most beneficial mix seems to be exactly the same, given your time stamps. Thank you for producing these many videos.
4: 1 by volume coarse perlite (4 parts) and coco coir (1 part) - the difference from one to the other was that the worse one has pumice in the bottom and smaller particle size of perlite, while the other had no pumice and larger perlite (minimum of 1/16", 1mm).
@@Bonsaify Thank you for the quick response! I have been growing in a mixture of chicken grit, turface, and a small amount of oildri. However, I think I should have used perlite instead of the oildri because I think the salts build up quicker with the oildri and causing some yellowing of the needles. I place the pines in dollar store colanders. I will put a batch of seedlings into your mixture. What would you recommend instead of coco coir if I cannot source it? Thanks again for taking the time to respond and for the effort it takes to make the videos.
Hi - turface has been shown by multiple users to be poor for plant growth. I would switch that out, and Oildri is just small pumice, which may or may not work well depending on the source and amount of residual salts. Perlite is inert, which allows you to dispense with the questions about residual salts that many components bring up. Peat Moss is a good sub for coco coir. Either can be found normally at hydro shops, and certainly peat moss is available at home centers. (it's the basis of most "potting soil")
@@Bonsaify Thank you, again. I will stop using turface and, if I cannot find coco coir, I shall use peat moss. I look forward to getting this next batch done.
Interesting I use medium sized pumice with some peat moss , and my pines are exploding.. but I’m in 6b , and fertilize weekly with fish emulsion
Do whatever works for you! Like I said, pumice can be very different, and the peat moss may work better than bark for nutrient retention.
Hei.
Kiitos videosta 😀
Pretty crazy to me that they thrive off of a substrate that doesn’t really resemble my idea of fertile soil… do you use fertilizer in these baskets? Perlite and coconut fiber doesn’t really add up to me!
Hehe. Yeah regular fertilizer is needed. But in technical terms this is "soilless culture". It's been around for a long time. Chances are if you eat tomatoes from the produce section of a supermarket, that they are grown using the same type of mix. Bonsai culture is not the same as good garden soil, that's for sure.
hey, thank you for great content. i wanted to ask if you know what would be the best soil for a ginko tree..
I don't grow many of them. A friend has one in standard bonsai mix and it does fine. The three small ones I have are growing slowly in a nursery mix (not mine.) The roots are very large, but I can't discern a preference for a particular soil based on what I have experienced.
👏👏👏
You didnt mention different climates, would this work as well in different places in the world. Your 3 "different" soils were almost the same. I would have liked to see a few more choices as a test and options for different climates.
Ah, well don't forget, I'm not "trying to fail" so the test was among my top candidates, not a bunch of things that I knew wouldn't work. As for different climates - I can't say for sure!
There is no ideal soil that will work for everyone. It depends on your location and weather.
precisely. Do your own tests to create what works best for you!
Be VERY CAREFULL when sifting perlite, the dust will damage your lungs permanently.
Yes, good point, and it is very irritating too. Best to keep perlite damp at least when working with it. Although it's hard to sift when too wet. Wear a dust mask! Or purchase perlite that is already clean and the right size.
So, the best mix is perlite and coco coir and the worst is perlite with coco coir.
Also confused..