I think all the companies should send you the stuff for a review. There's just nothing else there that compare to the reviews that you do thank you again!
Given that they are super-recurves, law of levers means that the limb tip deflection is going to be greater regardless of how stiff the limbs are. Speaking from experience, I love WIN&WIN limbs, but compared to Border limbs.... I'll take Border limbs every single time without hesitation, they are simply amazing.
Yes, definitely breaks the mold and may not fit into this discussion (ref. non-super reflex). Yes, I sorta get ya. Search for Jim Walker Border Archery (me) :)@@adamkilroe9840
Awesome job testing!!! I've done this too on our limbs during development stages of our CAC limbs (conventional recurve). Depending on the amount of recurve in limb will determine how much is torsional and how much is lateral stiffness. Also, at full draw is were this test really matters because that's the point of release but I've found, majority of time, the better resistance at brace will also be greater at full draw. Really depends on the flexed shape though.
As someone who have used entry level limbs like Axiom to top of the line like Quattro and something in between, I do agree that there are differences between those limbs as far as torsional stability goes. And the more rigid the limbs, the more forgiving it is to release error. It very much concur to my findings; cheap entry level limbs are good for training where technique and finesse need to be refined, but not for competition where errors in release could cost us dearly.
Thanks for the SuperThanks! I love doing this stuff and hope to do more. Possibly modify my jig to measure the bow at full draw and see how it changes…
@@JakeKaminskiArchery Hi Jake, sounds good. As a measurement specialist for 3D-parts in the german car industry I like to do stuff like this with my equipment, too. I can recommend a flat tip on your dial gauge … helps preventing “wrong” measurements on the rounded surfaces of the limbs.✌️
Maybe I missed it. I would’ve liked to have seen the comparisonon the Hoyt wood/foam limbs. I just purchased a set of.Axia wood limbs over the foam after seeing your test and review foam limbs and didn’t see much of a difference, and I got a really good deal on the lambs. Really enjoy all of your testing and reviews. It makes a big difference in my selection of equipment.thank you for all your help.
Jake thanks again for a very interesting and informative video, we should all appreciate the work you do. It would be interesting to see similar things done with limbs of the next lower cost class. Most of us are not able to financially or skill wise justify limbs and risers that cost a grand each. Rather we work in the $500 dollar range and it would be great to see the kind of information you are providing for top of the line limbs for the next level down as well. I know it depends upon you getting the limbs sent to you and companies want their top of the line tested so maybe that isn't practical but it would be fun to see.
You continue to do great work and great insightful information! Thank you for putting out some of the best content on the planet 🌎! God Bless you and your family 🙏😇 & Merry Christmas 🎄🎁
Very interesting. But what about full draw stability ? Same results, or some changes? I´d like to see some further limbs: Uukha and Border. Congrats, great Channel
Very interesting results, thank you as always. What surprised me tho was that the velos appear to be stiffer than the axia. For me the axia felt way more stable and stiff in comparison. I have the wood core axia so that might be the difference right there but on the win&win the difference wasn't that dramatic between wood and foam
Great content as usual. I would love some stats on my Win&Win Inno Ex Power limbs if you have a pair knocking about. Lots of elite level archers still using them.
Are you sure this measures the torsional rigidity? Is it really measuring the twisting? I would have thought the limb should be held flat with a horizontal bar attached at 90 degrees near the nock end of the limb, and then a weight added to the end of the bar.
It’s hard because we aren’t using flat limbs, but a curved profile what is ideal isn’t always practical. But this at least quantifies something somewhat akin to torsional stability. I plan to do this test with the bow at full draw too and see how that works
This is our speciality. Can i help contribute beyond a standard torsional resistance test... torsional resistance and torsional stability are kinda two different topics.
Sure sid! I read some of your thread on TradTalk, from back in 2011. I plan on modifying my jig to take the bow to full draw and to also have a spot to measure the nock area deflection.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery if you tweek the tips left and right at brace height.you will not it rotates around the string. With a tiller stick in. And repeat. Again it rotates around the string. So string engagement position also determines torsional stability. I've just posted a video on this on my company FB page
Jake, thank you very much for your test work. I would like to ask if you would be interested in discussing one of the design points about the new Hoyt 2024 Axia Limb (either wood core or foam core). It is the two black plastic pieces (maybe) where the new 2024 Axia limb contacts the tiller bolt at the end. I've heard that those two black plastic pieces can be very effective in increasing the stability of the limb, relative to the older 2023 Axia. Is that true?
Doesn’t the brace height in relation to the recurve shape for each specific limb affect this result quite a lot? If you would let the brace height down just a bit, the recurve would close and the tip would move forward, creating a bigger leverage for the hanging weight. I highly doubt that the result would be even on different brace height settings. And different limbs will have different recurve shapes on the same brace height even. A hard subject in terms of getting things fair for all.
While they are no way equivalent to what you have here, I would be very interested in what (if anything) you have found in testing Win&win Motiv C5 limbs. I am using them and they are both very quiet, and my coach and others have spoken highly of them. Can you give me your idea of how they stack up over all?
Are there any drawbacks to greater torsional stiffness? I can't imagine it's just a linear increase in rigidity and forgiveness - there must be some tradeoff. 680+ scores have been shot with all types of limbs.
Data is always good to have. But I am asking myself how these data relate to real world shooting. Isn't the torsional stability only relevant when the limbs are poorly aligned? Even the weakest limb should pull back straight and deliver straight forward when properly aligned. Any thoughts? Anyway, thanks for the effort! Much appreciated!
I think that's the point of that test, people aren't machines after all, and in real archery we don't pull back in a perfectly straight line. Torsional resistance can effectively improve this problem.
I have recently purchased formula XD riser soo I am thinking to use new axia synthectic foam core limbs Pls give me suggestion I should use it, is it worthy
Hello, I love this scientific approach. But in this case I disagree with your title: in a mechanical point of view it's not torsion but flexion. You apply a load directly on the tip of the limb: your dial indicate flexion displacement. If you want to check torsion you must apply a torque (with a lever betwen the tip of the limb and the load). In this case displacement will be angular. For your job it's not important, your method alows to compare limbs together. A title like "Lateral flexion" would be more appropriate. Thank you.
This would be 100% accurate if the limb was straight, but because it curves away from its mounting point, it induces torsion (torque) as well as lateral flexion. So I guess we are both correct and neither 100% lateral flexion or torque can be applied without also applying counter forces with complex rigging to prevent the other.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery You're right. I had forgotten the limb's curve in my reasoning. For simple comparison your method is certainly the best way. And results are really interesting. 😊
I think all the companies should send you the stuff for a review.
There's just nothing else there that compare to the reviews that you do thank you again!
Love that you are testing Torsional stability, thanks. Would love to see how Border limbs compare.
I’d be happy to test any limb I can get my hands on that’s ILF.
Oh yea!
Though border limbs and torsional stability--not so much. ;)
Given that they are super-recurves, law of levers means that the limb tip deflection is going to be greater regardless of how stiff the limbs are. Speaking from experience, I love WIN&WIN limbs, but compared to Border limbs.... I'll take Border limbs every single time without hesitation, they are simply amazing.
Yes, definitely breaks the mold and may not fit into this discussion (ref. non-super reflex). Yes, I sorta get ya. Search for Jim Walker Border Archery (me) :)@@adamkilroe9840
Awesome job testing!!! I've done this too on our limbs during development stages of our CAC limbs (conventional recurve). Depending on the amount of recurve in limb will determine how much is torsional and how much is lateral stiffness. Also, at full draw is were this test really matters because that's the point of release but I've found, majority of time, the better resistance at brace will also be greater at full draw. Really depends on the flexed shape though.
Great stuff- would love to see how a set of entry level and mid level limbs compare. What are you really getting for the extra money?
As someone who have used entry level limbs like Axiom to top of the line like Quattro and something in between, I do agree that there are differences between those limbs as far as torsional stability goes. And the more rigid the limbs, the more forgiving it is to release error.
It very much concur to my findings; cheap entry level limbs are good for training where technique and finesse need to be refined, but not for competition where errors in release could cost us dearly.
We love and enjoy archery Buddy ❤ exllent 😊
Danke! This data is absolutely helpful…thank you so much 👍
Thanks for the SuperThanks! I love doing this stuff and hope to do more. Possibly modify my jig to measure the bow at full draw and see how it changes…
@@JakeKaminskiArchery Hi Jake, sounds good. As a measurement specialist for 3D-parts in the german car industry I like to do stuff like this with my equipment, too.
I can recommend a flat tip on your dial gauge … helps preventing “wrong” measurements on the rounded surfaces of the limbs.✌️
Maybe I missed it. I would’ve liked to have seen the comparisonon the Hoyt wood/foam limbs. I just purchased a set of.Axia wood limbs over the foam after seeing your test and review foam limbs and didn’t see much of a difference, and I got a really good deal on the lambs. Really enjoy all of your testing and reviews. It makes a big difference in my selection of equipment.thank you for all your help.
Thank you very much Jake. A×esome tests and interesting results!! Super-recurve seems much softer than normal recurve. It is very good to know.
Jake thanks again for a very interesting and informative video, we should all appreciate the work you do. It would be interesting to see similar things done with limbs of the next lower cost class. Most of us are not able to financially or skill wise justify limbs and risers that cost a grand each. Rather we work in the $500 dollar range and it would be great to see the kind of information you are providing for top of the line limbs for the next level down as well. I know it depends upon you getting the limbs sent to you and companies want their top of the line tested so maybe that isn't practical but it would be fun to see.
Yeah I hope to find some sort of solution for the more budget stuff.
Great efforts brother 💪🏻
Thank you for your hard work. A simple graph but a lot of work. Now for answer to question that torsional = forgiveness.
Love watching this videos even though I don't have any of his bows the information is good to watch and understand
Thanks a lot again Jake ... great Job 👍👍👍
Loving the Kaminski Testing Center series.
You continue to do great work and great insightful information! Thank you for putting out some of the best content on the planet 🌎!
God Bless you and your family 🙏😇 & Merry Christmas 🎄🎁
Very interesting. But what about full draw stability ? Same results, or some changes? I´d like to see some further limbs: Uukha and Border. Congrats, great Channel
Very interesting results, thank you as always. What surprised me tho was that the velos appear to be stiffer than the axia. For me the axia felt way more stable and stiff in comparison. I have the wood core axia so that might be the difference right there but on the win&win the difference wasn't that dramatic between wood and foam
this test needed some Uukha limbs too, they're very very rigid limbs, could have been interesting to see how they compare to the others
If you check the data I have two Uukha limbs in there, the SX+ and the EX1 Evo2's
Please test Uukha Sx50, Sx80, and the plus models. Let's see how carbon platforms stack up.
In the data I have the SX+ and the old Evo2’s
He did a couple years ago
Would like to see torsion stability on a draw board at half draw and at full draw to see the difference under load and during the shot
love your work!! any idea if you will do a new easton arrow review? been trying to see reviews but no one is good as you revewing archery stuff!
Great content as usual. I would love some stats on my Win&Win Inno Ex Power limbs if you have a pair knocking about. Lots of elite level archers still using them.
Ive tested every ILF limb I have on hand.
Are you sure this measures the torsional rigidity? Is it really measuring the twisting? I would have thought the limb should be held flat with a horizontal bar attached at 90 degrees near the nock end of the limb, and then a weight added to the end of the bar.
It’s hard because we aren’t using flat limbs, but a curved profile what is ideal isn’t always practical. But this at least quantifies something somewhat akin to torsional stability. I plan to do this test with the bow at full draw too and see how that works
That's cool, you obviously understand where I am coming from!@@JakeKaminskiArchery
This is our speciality. Can i help contribute beyond a standard torsional resistance test... torsional resistance and torsional stability are kinda two different topics.
Sure sid! I read some of your thread on TradTalk, from back in 2011. I plan on modifying my jig to take the bow to full draw and to also have a spot to measure the nock area deflection.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery if you tweek the tips left and right at brace height.you will not it rotates around the string. With a tiller stick in. And repeat. Again it rotates around the string. So string engagement position also determines torsional stability. I've just posted a video on this on my company FB page
Jake, thank you very much for your test work. I would like to ask if you would be interested in discussing one of the design points about the new Hoyt 2024 Axia Limb (either wood core or foam core).
It is the two black plastic pieces (maybe) where the new 2024 Axia limb contacts the tiller bolt at the end. I've heard that those two black plastic pieces can be very effective in increasing the stability of the limb, relative to the older 2023 Axia.
Is that true?
Personally, I see no way these would make a limb more stable. More durable, sure but not stable imho.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery Got it！Thanks again！
Thanks!
Doesn’t the brace height in relation to the recurve shape for each specific limb affect this result quite a lot? If you would let the brace height down just a bit, the recurve would close and the tip would move forward, creating a bigger leverage for the hanging weight. I highly doubt that the result would be even on different brace height settings. And different limbs will have different recurve shapes on the same brace height even. A hard subject in terms of getting things fair for all.
While they are no way equivalent to what you have here, I would be very interested in what (if anything) you have found in testing Win&win Motiv C5 limbs. I am using them and they are both very quiet, and my coach and others have spoken highly of them. Can you give me your idea of how they stack up over all?
Are there any drawbacks to greater torsional stiffness? I can't imagine it's just a linear increase in rigidity and forgiveness - there must be some tradeoff. 680+ scores have been shot with all types of limbs.
Data is always good to have. But I am asking myself how these data relate to real world shooting. Isn't the torsional stability only relevant when the limbs are poorly aligned? Even the weakest limb should pull back straight and deliver straight forward when properly aligned. Any thoughts? Anyway, thanks for the effort! Much appreciated!
I think that's the point of that test, people aren't machines after all, and in real archery we don't pull back in a perfectly straight line. Torsional resistance can effectively improve this problem.
I have recently purchased formula XD riser soo I am thinking to use new axia synthectic foam core limbs
Pls give me suggestion I should use it, is it worthy
so which is the best limb to go with as of now?
Depends what you are looking for. The stiffest limb tested so far is the MXT-XP Wood limbs
Do you re sale this limbs I want to buy them from you
Hello, I love this scientific approach.
But in this case I disagree with your title: in a mechanical point of view it's not torsion but flexion.
You apply a load directly on the tip of the limb: your dial indicate flexion displacement.
If you want to check torsion you must apply a torque (with a lever betwen the tip of the limb and the load). In this case displacement will be angular.
For your job it's not important, your method alows to compare limbs together.
A title like "Lateral flexion" would be more appropriate.
Thank you.
This would be 100% accurate if the limb was straight, but because it curves away from its mounting point, it induces torsion (torque) as well as lateral flexion. So I guess we are both correct and neither 100% lateral flexion or torque can be applied without also applying counter forces with complex rigging to prevent the other.
@@JakeKaminskiArchery
You're right.
I had forgotten the limb's curve in my reasoning. For simple comparison your method is certainly the best way.
And results are really interesting. 😊
Do you have a job
This is my job amongst many other things.
@@JakeKaminskiArcheryMERCA riser