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I know I harp on about this on all your social media but Burning Wheel answers every complaint I have seen you have about D&D. Skill challenges, goals for players, xp only rewarding killing monsters, monsters not being special, power bloat, spells and abilities invalidating skills, social engagement not being deep enough, power bloat, hit point bloat, injuries instead of just hit point damage, rolls being deeper than just succeeding or failing. You have to check it out.
I ran a session once where my party went to the one part of the city I hadn't prepared -- the orc encampment outside the walls. Totally by the seat of my pants, I managed to sidetrack them into joining an orc sumo wrestling tournament in the forest nearby. Each match required 2 (best of three) successful skill checks. Players could only use skills they were proficient in, and they couldn't repeat using skills until they had used all their proficient skills once. Spectating players could add +1 to the participating player if they chose to use a proficient skill to help from the sidelines. It was wild. One of my best sessions. One player pants'd an orc to distract the competition from the sidelines. Another used nature to use positioning and use the setting sun to blind the opponent. The paladin called holy light down on a player to intimidate the opponent. Every player got the chance to be extremely creative and I basically just sat back and watched. I've been chasing that dragon and trying to recreate that session ever since to little success, unfortunately.
That's a revelation I had when 4e brought skill challenges in; there had long been other systems with similar mechanics----mostly dice-pool RPGs with "prolonged tests" where you accrue successes over a certain number of rolls----but when 4e delivered distinct rules for them, people realized they had already been using them. Skill challenges are a kind of natural extension of the pass/fail skill roll. A lot of GMs I know stumble upon them, or something like them, whenever they try to make skill use "more involved," or when trying to simulate a non-combat interaction with a lot of back-and-forth (e.g., races, contests, negotiations, escapes, infiltrations, etc.). I had a similar reaction from my players when I first broke out 4e's skill challenges for an overland travel scenario. They're just a _better_ way to handle such stuff than simple rolls; people you otherwise wouldn't expect to engage with mechanics suddenly pull out ingenious uses of their skill proficiencies, just to get a leg-up.
I prefer telling my players exactly how the skill challange is going to play out: a number of successes, a number of failures, and what’s gonna happen if they fail. In my experience it always lends to tense moments where players go: “OMG WE HAVE TWO FAILURES ALREADY WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING CLEVER” and I love it
GiffGlyph, the creator of Darker Dungeons, has a "Trial" mechanic for 5e that's an adaptation of the skill challenge system and it's really terrific. The guidelines are all very clearly laid out, and it gives a great breakdown of why you should tell your players up front that a trial is happening. Highly recommend ya'll check it out
"You might find it hard to believe we made 4 episodes talking about skills" Not when you guys are involved. You guys have a ton of inspiration and experience to give. You guys rock!
I appreciate you guys trying to make this format feel normal and putting the extra effort during this pandemic. Its nice to have familiarity. Good job!
Skill challenges are one of the most fondly remembered aspects by my players in 5e. They're wild as hell, outside the scope of their typical abilities, and cinematic. The one going down a mudslide to a bandit camp at the bottom of the hill being a standout
For one of the final villains of an arc (a trapped demon) I presented it as a skill challenge. The demon wanted out, the party had to keep him in. I had them rolling Arcana for impromptu rituals, Calligrapher's Supplies or Painter's Supplies to etch on protective runes, Religion and/or Intimidate to exorcise it, Deception for a ruse of party backstabbing so it takes sub-optimal choices, and good old Athletics to physically wrestle it still.
Can I just say that, even though this is your fourth video on skills, the subject does NOT feel stale at all. I personally like the deep dive into rules and theory that you've been doing. I hope you continue with mini-series on other topics as well. There's a lot of videos of basic rules & info on TH-cam but not any as all-encompassing as what you've been posting. Keep it up!!
I LOVE skill challenges. What a great follow up for the last couple episodes. I use skill challenges at the end of almost every adventure ending encounter. Great way to up the ante on an encounter and get your players thinking outside their basic abilities!
Turns out I have been Dming using skill challenges as the main tool with roleplaying without knowing. Maybe that's just old school when we just used pen and paper and described our intent? Some great ideas here to develop my approach (though I prefer a less obvious method that includes possible inoculous tests that may or may not become relevant later and not always telling the players the ramifications of a test success or failure - mostly as I like to go with the flow) - the Saltmarsh method of a backwards skill test sounds brilliant definitely going to take a look at that. Keep up the good work, your "videos" really get me thinking and get my creative juices flowing 👍👍👍
I'm really glad you're doing this one. My group isn't big on combat so a lot of the tension stuff in my game and the places where there WOULD be combat are tough for me to figure out sometimes. Skill challenges provide a great answer for that.
I like how you guys adjusted the direction you are facing to more accurately replicate the in-person videos where you face each other. Nice attention to detail! Love your videos.
I use skill challenges in what I consider to be high-intensity action scenes. The iconic one I can think of is one of my players, a Ranger, had split off from the party during a ball at an embassy and was investigating the offices of the ambassador (as he was from an enemy state of the ambassador, but not the country the embassy was in.) Anyway, after the party did some craziness, the ball went wild, and people burst into the room. Basically, I used it as a narration where I told what happened and his responses, describing singular options due to being cornered by guards, etc. and requiring him to climb the fences and get out while crossbowmen were shooting at him. In other words, I treated it a lot more like a quick time event, with damage and the like penalized for each failure, but ultimately getting him out and reunited with the party, albeit a bit worse for the wear due to all of the failures.
These things are literally my favorite! I use them all the time... probably too much lol... and made too many videos on it too! I’m obsessed! Was GREAT to see you guys talk about it!
I ran a skill challenge for the first time in a session last week, and it was really fun! I'm running The Sunless Citadel, and the players had drugged the dragon wyrmling (it's been a weird campaign so far), and wanted to transport it back to the Kobolds before it was no longer dazed. The rogue hog tied it, the fighter carried it over his shoulder, and the rogue scouted ahead.
I think skill challenges are a great way to implement sports into your worlds. I've used a skill challenge for a lore-friendly game of basketball. The way I did it was kind of game-y, but it worked out really well, I just set the challenge, told them describe what they want to do and lock in their rolls, then we played it out semi-cutscene style.
I just have to say how much I love and appreciate your editing on these videos lately. Firstly because it is precious and amusing to have the "edited to look like they're at the table together" vibe, and secondly because it is absolutely astounding how much relief this little semblance of normality brings to my brain that your videos look like they're "meant to". I see the jaggy outlines, different camera quality, oddly matched lighting, the earbuds etc, and I love it even more for not being perfect
The podcast criticalhit use skills checks really well - players can’t use the same skill twice in a round (if player a used one skill, no one else can use that for that round), and players can’t use re-use the same one the following round. It speeds up the play getting to a location or dealing with large events well. Helps players use skills they’ve usually not use often. Really found it engaging. Maybe check out their second last episode which has a good skill-challenge infiltrating a location to confront Asmodeus.
I have been using those rules for years. Probably should write to Rodrigo and say thanks. My new group (all new players) still try and make it into a combat with something. It's a good exercise for them to think outside the sword.
In our last session, I had my players hunt a giant boar. But I tried to use a modified, simplified chase mechanic lifted from Call of Cthulhu, and it didn't work out all that well. I intended for them to advance in 30 ft increments, every once in a while making skill checks to proceed (as did the boar). But I didn't disallow the PCs just attacking the boar at range, so the players did basically nothing _except_ plink at it with arrows and thrown axes until it died. This video makes it clear: I should have just made it a skill challenge. It would have been so much easier, and would have gotten the result I actually wanted (that is, PCs needing to navigate the wilderness to catch up with the boar). Would have been easier to prep for, too.
Hey Guys, I'd love to see some discussion about the Grappling and "Climb onto a bigger creature" (DMG 271) rules. I've seen builds for grappling focused characters, but I've never been able to play one. Any thoughts?
Check the dungeon coach’s video on skill challenges. He moves away from parts of 4e and opens up the rolls to pretty much everything. Have the player say what their character wants to do, and the DM requests the roll. Not all have to be a skill, it can be a basic check or an attack roll. Also don’t let a player make the same roll on their next turn.
Hey, Jim’s voice is still a bit hoarse, is he ok, or checking that up? Love the content from you guys, just wanted to make sure you’re healthy and kicking! Cheers!
I wanted to use Skill Challenges in the last campaign I ran. We did about 4 in total, and each time I tweaked the rules so that it felt better for both me and the players. How I handled spells in Skill Challenges was you can use a spell as long as you can explain how you are using it in a way that makes sense, the. Then player still had to roll the check, but instead of adding a skill proficiency they could add a modifier to the role that was equal to the spell level they used. I ended up liking this solution because it still felt real and allowed the players to use there abilities, but also still made the players have a chance a failure. I also liked it because while they could still choose to use spells, it still encouraged the players to try and use skills since they were the more “economic” choice
Oh, and the Help action is always an option in my skill challenges. For example, if a PC fails an Acrobatics roll and trips, another nearby PC can help them back on their feet so they don't fall behind in a chase, get attacked, or otherwise fail the challenge.
As with the alternate Ability check option, the key stumbling block is the tendency for players to want to throw their highest numbers at a problem. You end up with someone trying to demand that they be allowed to use DEX(Stealth) in a negotiation, or some such nonsense. The key thing to remember about Ability checks is that _players don't call for them._ That's the DM's job. The player's job is to tell the DM (and the rest of the group) what their character is trying to do and how they are trying to do it. Like their character was a real person trying to deal with some stuff that was actually happening to them. You know, roleplaying. If the action thus described can't succeed or can't fail, no need for a roll at all. Only if the action could succeed _or_ fail do you need a roll to resolve it. At which point the DM - using the information provided by the player when they declared the action, sets a DC - decides which Ability applies and whether the player gets to add their PC's Proficiency Bonus to the roll. So, by all means, run "Skill Challenges". _Mechanically,_ they're a great way of providing a contest that isn't combat. Just don't let your players tell you how the game runs. Have them roleplay their characters and adjudicate the outcome.
I frequently use group stealth checks because I don't believe it's fair that the entire group gets seen when the 2 rangers roll 30+ stealth rolls just because the cleric rolls a 12. As for skill challenges, I love them. I ran one in my homebrew campaign right now, the group was trying to escort the survivors of phandalin to Neverwinter after a drow attack on the small mining town. On the last day of the treck, the drow caught up with the group, and now they have to mad dash to the city walls to get to safety. So they do a skill challenge to see how fast they get there, and more failures means a larger fight when they get to the gates. Another example, I was playing in descent into avernus and we came across a family of dwarves that were trapped under a collapsing house, and we had to try and get them out. I liked that one because we actually failed, and in large part because of me. My monk accrued 2 of the 3 failures, and so in his mind, the death of the dwarf family was his fault, and it weighed on him throughout the rest of the campaign, making him either cautious, or flat out refuse to try and help someone in need out of fear of hurting them.
I like using skill challenges as part of overland travel. I have a big map, and don't like either throwing in random encounters just to "break up" the journey or simply saying, "Okay you're there, it took you 20 days to travel 500 miles." The skill challenge brings the players in to the process of describing the journey.
I find skill challenges get more people involved rather than less, especially if you limit how many times one person can contribute (or apply a penalty of some sort for only one person doing things). If you just roll one die, only one person is participating (with the exception of various buffs they can be given), Need to navigate through the wilderness and you call for a survival check? Probably only one person is going to interact with that, have a skill challenge and suddenly the fighter can use athletics, or your wizard might be able to use history, etc. It gamifies things that are normally just a roll, and it forces more people to use more skills.
My way of awarding XP for a skill challenge is small induvidual XP for each successful roll, and a larger amount of group XP for an overall success of the challenge. Works great for a prison break, where battle isn't in your best interest because it's loud. It grants experience for avoiding battle, when it's not a "milestone" kind of play.
I really recommend watching the Skill Challenge video from Matt Colville! He does a great job of explaining it and showing how to execute it. Heres the link: th-cam.com/video/GvOeqDpkBm8/w-d-xo.html
Have you guys heard of the podcast Almost Heroic? The DM, known on Twitter as thegoddamndm, homebrewed a set of rules for skill challenges that makes it very fun. I believe it's available on DMsGuild as "Almost Heroic Presents: Skill Challenges"
I tried to run one for my players to get them through a spider infested forest with the encounter at the end dependant on their successes. It went alright but springing a new mechanic on them like that was not ideal. Now they are familiar with it, it might go over better.
It can help to introduce the skill challenge in a low-stakes environment. Like, the campaign begins in a tavern, and the PCs are carousing. Make a skill challenge about how well they're able to make everyone have a good time, or something. If they succeed, everyone enjoyed the party, and will think more highly of the PCs later. If they fail, eh, it was just a bummer, no big loss. You could establish any number of ways to engage with the party, since it's an inherently mutable space. Athletics checks for an arm wrestling competition. Medicine to figure out which of the barrels of ale has gone bad, so the party guests can avoid it. A straight Constitution check to see how well a PC drinks NPCs under the table. Performance checks to entertain everyone. Etc.
The problem with combat being the consequence of failing a skill challenge is two-fold. 1) Lots of people love combat so it feels more like a reward, really. 2) Combat in 5E is not very lethal (except at low levels), so people are probably MUCH more confident in their ability to win a fight and survive than their ability to perform skill checks.
I recommend you guys take a look at the game, pillars of eternity. There are some very interesting skill challenges that can even include death after multiple failures
Pruitt's sinking ship would be a good idea for a "timed" skill challenge, maybe instead of 3 failures, you just get x number of roll attempts to succeed.
I like to start my campaing with a skill challenge, the caravan the party is traveling with is attacked by cultist and Gnolls, their driver is killed and trough a skill challenge we determine if they are able to take back controll. If they fail they start their first battle in disarray.
I like Colville’s advice. PC must be proficient in a skill to try it, and can only use it once (it represents your best effort). I also usually tell players “you will make it to the docks/through the woods/ etc, but the success/failure rolls will determine what’s happening when you arrive/how long it takes/etc.
Could you borrow a concept from the modern persona games for longer time frames where each day each party member can take one action that will affect the difficulty of a final outcome?
It seems like, unless I"m mistaken, they moved the webcams to an angle that makes it look a lot more like they're in the studio, particularly Pruitt. Good stuff. Looks a lot more 'natural'.
tangentially related to this video: I have recently started running the Star Trek Adventures RPG. Besides being really good at simulating star trek style plots and drama, it has some really interesting mechanics for things like skill challenges. Since you reviewed Numenera and Cypher in the past, I would be thrilled to see your take on STA and the 2d20 system, because y'alls insights into gaming are invaluable for me as a GM.
@@WebDM I think you'll dig it. still learning 2d20 but it seems to have a really good balance of crunchy depth and accessibility. It feels like my favorite parts of dungeon world and my favorite parts of GURPS combined. And the setting fluff and pre-written missions are awesome, especially if you are a TNG/DS9/Voyager fan. The corebook even surprised me by stating that the non-human species aren't monoliths and all of them have their own forms of ethnic and cultural diversity. Still just starting out with it, but so far it's high grade food for the nerd brain.
hey, guys, I have been underwhelmed by the stats for giants and huge/gigantic creatures, could there be some sort of skill challenge added to the combat with giant creatures to make it more of a challenge?
Even as a proponent of the ever-unpopular 4e, I thought skill challenges were completely awful but I ran them as described in DMG 1. I hated how completely mechanical and nonsensical they were. "I'd like to use feather fall to slow his descent" (4e feather fall is a lot more resource intensive than 5e or 3e) "Okay, that's not a skill check so it's not a success, you can have +4 on your check" Or in the 4e module Last Breaths of Ashenport "Okay, this is a skill challenge to conduct this interrogation." "Alright, that seems like a reasonable argument and a good roll, one success under diplomacy." "No, you can't use diplomacy again, you can only use each skill once." Maybe I'll give them a go again with another methodology.
@@aethon0563 Really? Epic, I assumed it was more about the dungeon crawl and less about finding clues and traveling to peice them together. Is there some of that in there?
looks like somebody succeeded on their animal handling check to milk that skill checks concept XD but in seriously I love your videos even though I dont agree with all of them you give me alot of inspiration to get me going. one thing I just dont agree with the All or nothing for stealth for example. how do you deal with that like that rogue wont have fun if every ambush fails because of the plate mail paladin . do you make suprise a condetion that for example the Orc is not surprised by the paladin but surprised by the rogue or what exactly ? Do you make the all or nothing take an average or half of the group.
I do exactly that; as long as the rogue is not right next to the paladin THEY are still hidden. If they win at initiative they get to attack entirely from surprise. It’s also possible for the rogue to hold one attack for a surprise round; then Initiative. It depends on the terrain and situation. Usually anyone right next to the person who failed stealth is detected but not anyone further out and sheathed well. However that alert has the foes well.. alerted so they are looking for other potential hidden enemies and all will begin doing things such as active perception checks.
Rodrigo method- roll initiative, you can’t repeat the previous players skill or your own previous skill. Beat the DC number and move the story. The DM is needed to move the narrative towards the declared end point. We have loved this since 4e. Still gets cheers at the table.
I've been wrestling with a Skill topic as a DM but it's more the opposite of the direction you're recent videos. Rather than more think through, I'm trying to think out how to streamline a commonly done skill check. For example, my party's monk we would love to have an on hit effect to make grapple atttempts. Mechanically it looks balanced for our table, but I'm afraid of the time invested to roll attack, roll damage, player and NPC roll skill checks, and potentially a stun saving throw as well... that's a long turn when that's 4 times every turn every combat. How would you streamline this as a DM?
Not for this specific scenario, but my solution was Passive skills when it is not your turn. So if you are trying to grapple someone you make your Athletic check against the better of their Athletics or Acrobatics Passive skills as a DC. (10+ Ability Mod + Proficiency + Misc) So a 14 str guard proficient in Athletics would have a DC 15. When a grapple attempt is made it is vs this value. On the flip side, on the guard's turn they are trying to escape against the characters Passive Athletics. So I would roll the Guards Athletics or Acrobatics vs the PCs passive athletics. With a little work you could actually turn everything around and have the Players roll for everything. Instead of rolling an Attack against them, have them make a defense roll against the Monster's Attack DC (10 + to hit bonus for the attack). Defense roll = 1d20 + AC Bonuses. e.g. 14 Dex, Leather armor, +1 ring of protection is +2, +2, +1 = +5. So a Kobold with a +4 to hit would require a roll of 9+ on the Defense roll to avoid. Monster saving throws become another variant of spell attack or Power check (Stunning fist), 1d20 + Spell casting mod vs 12 + stat bonus + proficiency DC. (12 =because DC for spells and abilities is 8+ ... not 10+ ...)
@@fctimar I think this would be the right way to do this. Having a quick calculation as DM to know their passive athletics or acrobatics would make for a quicker play pattern should it be repeating. In my specific I decided to just allow him a free grapple once a turn... Which may sound really powerful, but not so much in 5e.
Wo wo wo wo ( video starts @ 2:15 ). 2 Sponsorship plugs at the beginning . I'm a asshole and i don't even do that . Fyi , i still love Web DM ( also Dungeon Dudes are awesome ) .
The ghosts of Saltmarsh style of story telling is exactly how DnD should work. Let the game generate what happens and then retrofit the story to that result. Game before story.
some players donnt want to participate and in the of the day that's okay - 10.24 i dont see how thats okay, i feel like many dm and player wouldnt be okay with a player not participating in combat.
Man, Pruitt did the whole "look at the tenis ball and pretend it's a person" great. Or maybe he set his monitor or camera differently, that sounds like a lack of imagination. #webdm really needs a bigger fanbase.
D&D 4e had a lot of cool stuff . An the more you invested in it . The better it gets . As 4th edition was engineered to be modular and upgradable . People that only bought the basic stuff , played the worst and weakest version of it .
Any other viewers looking for a group? My wife and I are looking for an online group to play with and i figured this might be a good place to find some quality players and dms...?
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I know I harp on about this on all your social media but Burning Wheel answers every complaint I have seen you have about D&D.
Skill challenges, goals for players, xp only rewarding killing monsters, monsters not being special, power bloat, spells and abilities invalidating skills, social engagement not being deep enough, power bloat, hit point bloat, injuries instead of just hit point damage, rolls being deeper than just succeeding or failing. You have to check it out.
Just coming here to say that DungeonFog is fantastic
That table is a wizard. It is simultaneously in front of Pruitt, and behind him.
It's a displacer table.
Schrodinger's Table, lol.
It's a Newtonian ooze and Pruitt is being consumed!
Non-euclidian table
The table gave itself advantage.
I ran a session once where my party went to the one part of the city I hadn't prepared -- the orc encampment outside the walls. Totally by the seat of my pants, I managed to sidetrack them into joining an orc sumo wrestling tournament in the forest nearby.
Each match required 2 (best of three) successful skill checks. Players could only use skills they were proficient in, and they couldn't repeat using skills until they had used all their proficient skills once. Spectating players could add +1 to the participating player if they chose to use a proficient skill to help from the sidelines.
It was wild. One of my best sessions. One player pants'd an orc to distract the competition from the sidelines. Another used nature to use positioning and use the setting sun to blind the opponent. The paladin called holy light down on a player to intimidate the opponent.
Every player got the chance to be extremely creative and I basically just sat back and watched. I've been chasing that dragon and trying to recreate that session ever since to little success, unfortunately.
That's a revelation I had when 4e brought skill challenges in; there had long been other systems with similar mechanics----mostly dice-pool RPGs with "prolonged tests" where you accrue successes over a certain number of rolls----but when 4e delivered distinct rules for them, people realized they had already been using them. Skill challenges are a kind of natural extension of the pass/fail skill roll. A lot of GMs I know stumble upon them, or something like them, whenever they try to make skill use "more involved," or when trying to simulate a non-combat interaction with a lot of back-and-forth (e.g., races, contests, negotiations, escapes, infiltrations, etc.).
I had a similar reaction from my players when I first broke out 4e's skill challenges for an overland travel scenario. They're just a _better_ way to handle such stuff than simple rolls; people you otherwise wouldn't expect to engage with mechanics suddenly pull out ingenious uses of their skill proficiencies, just to get a leg-up.
I prefer telling my players exactly how the skill challange is going to play out: a number of successes, a number of failures, and what’s gonna happen if they fail. In my experience it always lends to tense moments where players go: “OMG WE HAVE TWO FAILURES ALREADY WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING CLEVER” and I love it
GiffGlyph, the creator of Darker Dungeons, has a "Trial" mechanic for 5e that's an adaptation of the skill challenge system and it's really terrific. The guidelines are all very clearly laid out, and it gives a great breakdown of why you should tell your players up front that a trial is happening.
Highly recommend ya'll check it out
Upload twins!!
my morning has been blessed by much content.
WebDM, Dael, wasd20, Jorphdan... I'm coming to realize that a lot of us upload on Wednesday! :)
I like it when the people I love to watch say things to each other.
Would love a collaboration between you three sometime! My two favorite DND channels
"You might find it hard to believe we made 4 episodes talking about skills"
Not when you guys are involved. You guys have a ton of inspiration and experience to give. You guys rock!
Game mechanics that serve the narrative better are always welcomed at my table! Great insight, guys!
I appreciate you guys trying to make this format feel normal and putting the extra effort during this pandemic. Its nice to have familiarity. Good job!
Skill challenges are one of the most fondly remembered aspects by my players in 5e. They're wild as hell, outside the scope of their typical abilities, and cinematic. The one going down a mudslide to a bandit camp at the bottom of the hill being a standout
They used to be so close, now they can't even look at each other. Tragic.
huh
For one of the final villains of an arc (a trapped demon) I presented it as a skill challenge. The demon wanted out, the party had to keep him in. I had them rolling Arcana for impromptu rituals, Calligrapher's Supplies or Painter's Supplies to etch on protective runes, Religion and/or Intimidate to exorcise it, Deception for a ruse of party backstabbing so it takes sub-optimal choices, and good old Athletics to physically wrestle it still.
Can I just say that, even though this is your fourth video on skills, the subject does NOT feel stale at all. I personally like the deep dive into rules and theory that you've been doing. I hope you continue with mini-series on other topics as well. There's a lot of videos of basic rules & info on TH-cam but not any as all-encompassing as what you've been posting. Keep it up!!
i have to applaud your screen wizardry. the extra effort is not unnoticed. thank you !
I LOVE skill challenges. What a great follow up for the last couple episodes. I use skill challenges at the end of almost every adventure ending encounter. Great way to up the ante on an encounter and get your players thinking outside their basic abilities!
Thanks Alexander!
I failed my Intelligence (Investigation) check and realized way too late that you two are actually not in the same room. Whoopsies.
That just shows how good the illusion is.
Whops!
Whoopsies!
Turns out I have been Dming using skill challenges as the main tool with roleplaying without knowing. Maybe that's just old school when we just used pen and paper and described our intent? Some great ideas here to develop my approach (though I prefer a less obvious method that includes possible inoculous tests that may or may not become relevant later and not always telling the players the ramifications of a test success or failure - mostly as I like to go with the flow) - the Saltmarsh method of a backwards skill test sounds brilliant definitely going to take a look at that. Keep up the good work, your "videos" really get me thinking and get my creative juices flowing 👍👍👍
I'm really glad you're doing this one. My group isn't big on combat so a lot of the tension stuff in my game and the places where there WOULD be combat are tough for me to figure out sometimes. Skill challenges provide a great answer for that.
I like how you guys adjusted the direction you are facing to more accurately replicate the in-person videos where you face each other. Nice attention to detail! Love your videos.
Know that your effort to make your show look like you're still at your table is greatly appreciated. Love you guys!
The set up is really dialing in the feel of you guys chillin together. Looks good bois
I use skill challenges in what I consider to be high-intensity action scenes. The iconic one I can think of is one of my players, a Ranger, had split off from the party during a ball at an embassy and was investigating the offices of the ambassador (as he was from an enemy state of the ambassador, but not the country the embassy was in.) Anyway, after the party did some craziness, the ball went wild, and people burst into the room. Basically, I used it as a narration where I told what happened and his responses, describing singular options due to being cornered by guards, etc. and requiring him to climb the fences and get out while crossbowmen were shooting at him. In other words, I treated it a lot more like a quick time event, with damage and the like penalized for each failure, but ultimately getting him out and reunited with the party, albeit a bit worse for the wear due to all of the failures.
These things are literally my favorite! I use them all the time... probably too much lol... and made too many videos on it too! I’m obsessed! Was GREAT to see you guys talk about it!
I ran a skill challenge for the first time in a session last week, and it was really fun! I'm running The Sunless Citadel, and the players had drugged the dragon wyrmling (it's been a weird campaign so far), and wanted to transport it back to the Kobolds before it was no longer dazed. The rogue hog tied it, the fighter carried it over his shoulder, and the rogue scouted ahead.
I think skill challenges are a great way to implement sports into your worlds. I've used a skill challenge for a lore-friendly game of basketball.
The way I did it was kind of game-y, but it worked out really well, I just set the challenge, told them describe what they want to do and lock in their rolls, then we played it out semi-cutscene style.
I just have to say how much I love and appreciate your editing on these videos lately. Firstly because it is precious and amusing to have the "edited to look like they're at the table together" vibe, and secondly because it is absolutely astounding how much relief this little semblance of normality brings to my brain that your videos look like they're "meant to". I see the jaggy outlines, different camera quality, oddly matched lighting, the earbuds etc, and I love it even more for not being perfect
You guys are getting better with you Green Screen Fu :)
The podcast criticalhit use skills checks really well - players can’t use the same skill twice in a round (if player a used one skill, no one else can use that for that round), and players can’t use re-use the same one the following round. It speeds up the play getting to a location or dealing with large events well. Helps players use skills they’ve usually not use often. Really found it engaging. Maybe check out their second last episode which has a good skill-challenge infiltrating a location to confront Asmodeus.
I have been using those rules for years. Probably should write to Rodrigo and say thanks.
My new group (all new players) still try and make it into a combat with something. It's a good exercise for them to think outside the sword.
Jeffrey Kershner yep I’ve plugged it and tagged Rodrigo a few times for sure
In our last session, I had my players hunt a giant boar. But I tried to use a modified, simplified chase mechanic lifted from Call of Cthulhu, and it didn't work out all that well. I intended for them to advance in 30 ft increments, every once in a while making skill checks to proceed (as did the boar). But I didn't disallow the PCs just attacking the boar at range, so the players did basically nothing _except_ plink at it with arrows and thrown axes until it died.
This video makes it clear: I should have just made it a skill challenge. It would have been so much easier, and would have gotten the result I actually wanted (that is, PCs needing to navigate the wilderness to catch up with the boar). Would have been easier to prep for, too.
Hey Guys, I'd love to see some discussion about the Grappling and "Climb onto a bigger creature" (DMG 271) rules. I've seen builds for grappling focused characters, but I've never been able to play one. Any thoughts?
Of all the great videos you make, this is by far the one I have found most useful. ¡Thanks a lot guys!
Great to hear!
I've been loving these more granular break downs of the players handbook and dungeon masters guide. Always love your stuff
Check the dungeon coach’s video on skill challenges. He moves away from parts of 4e and opens up the rolls to pretty much everything. Have the player say what their character wants to do, and the DM requests the roll. Not all have to be a skill, it can be a basic check or an attack roll. Also don’t let a player make the same roll on their next turn.
WebDM, let's get it! I do use DungeonFog, useful with screen sharing on Discord. Quarantine hasn't stopped me from running my game in Eberron.
We LOOOOVE Dungeon Fog!!!
Thumbs up for eberron
Hey, Jim’s voice is still a bit hoarse, is he ok, or checking that up? Love the content from you guys, just wanted to make sure you’re healthy and kicking! Cheers!
We're all good!
He finally hit puberty. Imagine what his beard is gonna look like now!
Got that boss mic!
@@WebDM thank you for responding I was also worried.
I’m glad they mentioned Adventures in Middle Earth. I use all sorts of stuff from that book. Worth every penny.
Is this episode an Easter Egg? The fourth episode, addressing a feature of the fourth edition? Loved it!
I was waiting for that part!
Skill Challenges are my favorite thing to run as DM. My players love them too. Hopefully this video makes them even better for all involved.
I wanted to use Skill Challenges in the last campaign I ran. We did about 4 in total, and each time I tweaked the rules so that it felt better for both me and the players. How I handled spells in Skill Challenges was you can use a spell as long as you can explain how you are using it in a way that makes sense, the. Then player still had to roll the check, but instead of adding a skill proficiency they could add a modifier to the role that was equal to the spell level they used. I ended up liking this solution because it still felt real and allowed the players to use there abilities, but also still made the players have a chance a failure. I also liked it because while they could still choose to use spells, it still encouraged the players to try and use skills since they were the more “economic” choice
Love the thumbnail of the Crown Royal bag that many people use as their dice bag. 👍
Jim's beard is BACK!
Quality on the videos has really gone up since you went to once every two weeks; looks fantastic! Thanks for another great video!
I love they've gone so far as to turn their cameras at an ever so slight angle
Your green screen shenanigans are making my head hurt in the best possible way. Keep up the good work!
Oh, and the Help action is always an option in my skill challenges. For example, if a PC fails an Acrobatics roll and trips, another nearby PC can help them back on their feet so they don't fall behind in a chase, get attacked, or otherwise fail the challenge.
As with the alternate Ability check option, the key stumbling block is the tendency for players to want to throw their highest numbers at a problem. You end up with someone trying to demand that they be allowed to use DEX(Stealth) in a negotiation, or some such nonsense.
The key thing to remember about Ability checks is that _players don't call for them._ That's the DM's job. The player's job is to tell the DM (and the rest of the group) what their character is trying to do and how they are trying to do it. Like their character was a real person trying to deal with some stuff that was actually happening to them. You know, roleplaying.
If the action thus described can't succeed or can't fail, no need for a roll at all. Only if the action could succeed _or_ fail do you need a roll to resolve it. At which point the DM - using the information provided by the player when they declared the action, sets a DC - decides which Ability applies and whether the player gets to add their PC's Proficiency Bonus to the roll.
So, by all means, run "Skill Challenges". _Mechanically,_ they're a great way of providing a contest that isn't combat. Just don't let your players tell you how the game runs. Have them roleplay their characters and adjudicate the outcome.
One of your very best, most super fantastic videos to date. Extra well done!
6:50 that's why the system for Intrigue in A Song of Ice and Fire RPG is great! Makes it feel more real and dangerous
AD&D 2nd edition is still king in terms of skill check design. Only possible rival could be 3.5
I frequently use group stealth checks because I don't believe it's fair that the entire group gets seen when the 2 rangers roll 30+ stealth rolls just because the cleric rolls a 12.
As for skill challenges, I love them. I ran one in my homebrew campaign right now, the group was trying to escort the survivors of phandalin to Neverwinter after a drow attack on the small mining town. On the last day of the treck, the drow caught up with the group, and now they have to mad dash to the city walls to get to safety. So they do a skill challenge to see how fast they get there, and more failures means a larger fight when they get to the gates.
Another example, I was playing in descent into avernus and we came across a family of dwarves that were trapped under a collapsing house, and we had to try and get them out. I liked that one because we actually failed, and in large part because of me. My monk accrued 2 of the 3 failures, and so in his mind, the death of the dwarf family was his fault, and it weighed on him throughout the rest of the campaign, making him either cautious, or flat out refuse to try and help someone in need out of fear of hurting them.
I like using skill challenges as part of overland travel. I have a big map, and don't like either throwing in random encounters just to "break up" the journey or simply saying, "Okay you're there, it took you 20 days to travel 500 miles." The skill challenge brings the players in to the process of describing the journey.
I find skill challenges get more people involved rather than less, especially if you limit how many times one person can contribute (or apply a penalty of some sort for only one person doing things). If you just roll one die, only one person is participating (with the exception of various buffs they can be given), Need to navigate through the wilderness and you call for a survival check? Probably only one person is going to interact with that, have a skill challenge and suddenly the fighter can use athletics, or your wizard might be able to use history, etc. It gamifies things that are normally just a roll, and it forces more people to use more skills.
It seems as though this just needs a name change; perhaps "Cinematic challenge" or "Dynamic solving"
My way of awarding XP for a skill challenge is small induvidual XP for each successful roll, and a larger amount of group XP for an overall success of the challenge.
Works great for a prison break, where battle isn't in your best interest because it's loud. It grants experience for avoiding battle, when it's not a "milestone" kind of play.
I really recommend watching the Skill Challenge video from Matt Colville! He does a great job of explaining it and showing how to execute it. Heres the link: th-cam.com/video/GvOeqDpkBm8/w-d-xo.html
Have you guys heard of the podcast Almost Heroic? The DM, known on Twitter as thegoddamndm, homebrewed a set of rules for skill challenges that makes it very fun. I believe it's available on DMsGuild as "Almost Heroic Presents: Skill Challenges"
I tried to run one for my players to get them through a spider infested forest with the encounter at the end dependant on their successes. It went alright but springing a new mechanic on them like that was not ideal. Now they are familiar with it, it might go over better.
It can help to introduce the skill challenge in a low-stakes environment. Like, the campaign begins in a tavern, and the PCs are carousing. Make a skill challenge about how well they're able to make everyone have a good time, or something. If they succeed, everyone enjoyed the party, and will think more highly of the PCs later. If they fail, eh, it was just a bummer, no big loss.
You could establish any number of ways to engage with the party, since it's an inherently mutable space. Athletics checks for an arm wrestling competition. Medicine to figure out which of the barrels of ale has gone bad, so the party guests can avoid it. A straight Constitution check to see how well a PC drinks NPCs under the table. Performance checks to entertain everyone. Etc.
The problem with combat being the consequence of failing a skill challenge is two-fold.
1) Lots of people love combat so it feels more like a reward, really.
2) Combat in 5E is not very lethal (except at low levels), so people are probably MUCH more confident in their ability to win a fight and survive than their ability to perform skill checks.
I recommend you guys take a look at the game, pillars of eternity. There are some very interesting skill challenges that can even include death after multiple failures
Pruitt steals my heart every time I see him. More Pruitt side skits please if you guys have the time during this hellyear.
Pruitt's sinking ship would be a good idea for a "timed" skill challenge, maybe instead of 3 failures, you just get x number of roll attempts to succeed.
I like to start my campaing with a skill challenge, the caravan the party is traveling with is attacked by cultist and Gnolls, their driver is killed and trough a skill challenge we determine if they are able to take back controll. If they fail they start their first battle in disarray.
I like Colville’s advice. PC must be proficient in a skill to try it, and can only use it once (it represents your best effort). I also usually tell players “you will make it to the docks/through the woods/ etc, but the success/failure rolls will determine what’s happening when you arrive/how long it takes/etc.
Could you borrow a concept from the modern persona games for longer time frames where each day each party member can take one action that will affect the difficulty of a final outcome?
It seems like, unless I"m mistaken, they moved the webcams to an angle that makes it look a lot more like they're in the studio, particularly Pruitt. Good stuff. Looks a lot more 'natural'.
Indeed we did!
tangentially related to this video: I have recently started running the Star Trek Adventures RPG. Besides being really good at simulating star trek style plots and drama, it has some really interesting mechanics for things like skill challenges. Since you reviewed Numenera and Cypher in the past, I would be thrilled to see your take on STA and the 2d20 system, because y'alls insights into gaming are invaluable for me as a GM.
We reaaaaaally wanna play STA
@@WebDM I think you'll dig it. still learning 2d20 but it seems to have a really good balance of crunchy depth and accessibility. It feels like my favorite parts of dungeon world and my favorite parts of GURPS combined. And the setting fluff and pre-written missions are awesome, especially if you are a TNG/DS9/Voyager fan. The corebook even surprised me by stating that the non-human species aren't monoliths and all of them have their own forms of ethnic and cultural diversity. Still just starting out with it, but so far it's high grade food for the nerd brain.
@@WebDM also have to say: thanks for all the awesome work you put in to actively improving the hobby and making me and countless others better GMs.
hey, guys, I have been underwhelmed by the stats for giants and huge/gigantic creatures, could there be some sort of skill challenge added to the combat with giant creatures to make it more of a challenge?
I miss weekly episodes :( but this one is great!
Even as a proponent of the ever-unpopular 4e, I thought skill challenges were completely awful but I ran them as described in DMG 1. I hated how completely mechanical and nonsensical they were.
"I'd like to use feather fall to slow his descent" (4e feather fall is a lot more resource intensive than 5e or 3e)
"Okay, that's not a skill check so it's not a success, you can have +4 on your check"
Or in the 4e module Last Breaths of Ashenport
"Okay, this is a skill challenge to conduct this interrogation."
"Alright, that seems like a reasonable argument and a good roll, one success under diplomacy."
"No, you can't use diplomacy again, you can only use each skill once."
Maybe I'll give them a go again with another methodology.
Save your money. I would recommend the upcoming Dungeons and Lasers KS on the 25th August. Far more cost effective, and just as good quality.
I would be curious to know how you would run an Indiana Jones/ Uncharted find the lost city/artifact adventure.
Tomb of Annihilation is a good resource.
@@aethon0563 Really? Epic, I assumed it was more about the dungeon crawl and less about finding clues and traveling to peice them together. Is there some of that in there?
lol Dwarven Forge: Playmobil for nerds :p And I say that in the most loving way possible
It's the BEST!
What WebMD plays series/episode were y'all talking about at 15:50
Web DM is my rock.
looks like somebody succeeded on their animal handling check to milk that skill checks concept XD
but in seriously I love your videos even though I dont agree with all of them you give me alot of inspiration to get me going.
one thing I just dont agree with the All or nothing for stealth for example. how do you deal with that like that rogue wont have fun if every ambush fails because of the plate mail paladin . do you make suprise a condetion that for example the Orc is not surprised by the paladin but surprised by the rogue or what exactly ?
Do you make the all or nothing take an average or half of the group.
I do exactly that; as long as the rogue is not right next to the paladin THEY are still hidden. If they win at initiative they get to attack entirely from surprise. It’s also possible for the rogue to hold one attack for a surprise round; then Initiative. It depends on the terrain and situation. Usually anyone right next to the person who failed stealth is detected but not anyone further out and sheathed well. However that alert has the foes well.. alerted so they are looking for other potential hidden enemies and all will begin doing things such as active perception checks.
Rodrigo method- roll initiative, you can’t repeat the previous players skill or your own previous skill. Beat the DC number and move the story. The DM is needed to move the narrative towards the declared end point. We have loved this since 4e. Still gets cheers at the table.
Probably the best thing to come out of 4e
Rodrigo is a great DM
I've been wrestling with a Skill topic as a DM but it's more the opposite of the direction you're recent videos. Rather than more think through, I'm trying to think out how to streamline a commonly done skill check.
For example, my party's monk we would love to have an on hit effect to make grapple atttempts. Mechanically it looks balanced for our table, but I'm afraid of the time invested to roll attack, roll damage, player and NPC roll skill checks, and potentially a stun saving throw as well... that's a long turn when that's 4 times every turn every combat.
How would you streamline this as a DM?
Not for this specific scenario, but my solution was Passive skills when it is not your turn. So if you are trying to grapple someone you make your Athletic check against the better of their Athletics or Acrobatics Passive skills as a DC. (10+ Ability Mod + Proficiency + Misc) So a 14 str guard proficient in Athletics would have a DC 15. When a grapple attempt is made it is vs this value. On the flip side, on the guard's turn they are trying to escape against the characters Passive Athletics. So I would roll the Guards Athletics or Acrobatics vs the PCs passive athletics.
With a little work you could actually turn everything around and have the Players roll for everything. Instead of rolling an Attack against them, have them make a defense roll against the Monster's Attack DC (10 + to hit bonus for the attack). Defense roll = 1d20 + AC Bonuses. e.g. 14 Dex, Leather armor, +1 ring of protection is +2, +2, +1 = +5. So a Kobold with a +4 to hit would require a roll of 9+ on the Defense roll to avoid. Monster saving throws become another variant of spell attack or Power check (Stunning fist), 1d20 + Spell casting mod vs 12 + stat bonus + proficiency DC. (12 =because DC for spells and abilities is 8+ ... not 10+ ...)
@@fctimar I think this would be the right way to do this. Having a quick calculation as DM to know their passive athletics or acrobatics would make for a quicker play pattern should it be repeating.
In my specific I decided to just allow him a free grapple once a turn... Which may sound really powerful, but not so much in 5e.
Am I the only one distracted by Jim's hair? That one dent from maybe the green screens reflection?
Wo wo wo wo ( video starts @ 2:15 ).
2 Sponsorship plugs at the beginning .
I'm a asshole and i don't even do that .
Fyi , i still love Web DM ( also Dungeon Dudes are awesome ) .
The ghosts of Saltmarsh style of story telling is exactly how DnD should work. Let the game generate what happens and then retrofit the story to that result. Game before story.
I want a "Here's a dragon!" tshirt.
Man, you guys are on a skill kick huh?
Page number for Ghosts of Saltmarsh group checks?
Page 200, under the Hazards section.
The Acquisitions Inc book also have thouse.
Just curious... I've searched their channel, but I don't see any games run by Jim or Jonathan. Do these guys run games on TH-cam?
We do! We put the archive of them on a separate channel, TH-cam.com/webdmplays
Live on twitch.tv/WebDM
Thanks.
My Kenku almost die to skill challenges. It was hilarious! Turns out he can’t swim very well XD
Didn't know they paid for Jim's premium voice with that sponsor
Is it a skill to skillfully impement skill challenges?
some players donnt want to participate and in the of the day that's okay - 10.24
i dont see how thats okay, i feel like many dm and player wouldnt be okay with a player not participating in combat.
Man, Pruitt did the whole "look at the tenis ball and pretend it's a person" great. Or maybe he set his monitor or camera differently, that sounds like a lack of imagination. #webdm really needs a bigger fanbase.
We did change it up.
If you think we should have a bigger fanbase, tell your friends!!
I see someone is in an Indiana Jones mood. Chase? Indiana Jones! Heist? Indiana Jones!
For my group, a rule we have is you can't use the same skill twice in a row.
You feelin alright my dude?
Pruitt always looks ripped af in that shirt
D&D 4e had a lot of cool stuff .
An the more you invested in it .
The better it gets .
As 4th edition was engineered to be modular and upgradable .
People that only bought the basic stuff , played the worst and weakest version of it .
Good food for the ole imagination engine, gotta feed it or it gets bored and starts chewing on the books.
Any other viewers looking for a group? My wife and I are looking for an online group to play with and i figured this might be a good place to find some quality players and dms...?
My only group is in-person and pretty much set for players due to already tenuous schedules. I hope you two ended up finding people to play with!
Sounds like blades of darkness.
Can we get a "baby is sleeping volume" playlist