Kat, you are quietly hilarious at times, "One of the things that the house of Hanover is perhaps best known for is their capacity to fall out with each other". So cutting, so deadpan :-)
I think the Kensington system would have been horrible to live through. I suspect her mother isolated and coddled Victoria out of clingy love and fear- the ultimate helicopter parent. The duchess just didn’t process that her daughter was a whole person who had needs for friends, adventure, and privacy instead of a helpless infant, and thus always treated Victoria as such. Conroy, on the other hand, was absolutely a snake who manipulated the duchess’s worry for his own ends. Looking at you, intimidating a deathly ill girl for power. Shout out to William IV for saying “I will live long enough to get my niece away from that fucker”, he was a real one.
I share the same feelings about Victoria’s upbringing, it was emotionally abusive. It was nothing new in history, ambitious adults trying to control royal children for their own ambition and personal gain. I blame her mother for allowing that creep Conroy to dominate Victoria.
Creepy Conroy had two females to dominate, Duchess Victoiré (Mummy), and Princess Alexandrina (the future Queen Victoria). It's all Creepy Conroy's fault!
Re Victoria’s grief at her mother’s death: in my experience, people from abusive homes sometimes mourn more profoundly than people with happy memories of their childhoods. I think maybe it’s because when an abusive parent dies, the possibility of closure and healing dies with them. 😢
I agree completely as that is what happened to me. My mother was emotionally distant with me, I never did a single thing right. When she passed, I was in severe depression for over 3 years, believing incorrectly that if I just had a little more time, I could somehow "fix" our relationship. Now, 6 years after her death, while I know I could never improve our relationship, I have so many regrets, I still feel responsible for the way I was treated.
Queen Victoria was so isolated from other children growing up that I fear she couldn't relate to her own children. Other biographers have mentioned this awkward relationship with her children. I know it's a monarch's duty to provide an heir to the throne but she was so in love with her husband I think she'd have been happy to be childless. That would give her all her spare time toward her consort. She counted on him to help her with her reign. After his death she was not happy to be reigning alone and withdrew. I cannot see that such a strict method of schooling etc. was really an advantage to her. I feel sorry for her lonely childhood as well. However, my mother always said my sister and I did not come with a training manual. So to each his own.
Regardless of differences in childrearing across centuries, it's hard to imagine that raising the future queen in near isolation would be beneficial for her. Discounting the plus side of avoiding childhood illnesses, the downsides limited her abilities to form relationships with different people; it made her spoiled and demanding, unable to compromise and at the same time caused her to form dependencies on others throughout her life (Albert, Disraeli, Brown, her poor daughter Beatrice). She seemed unable to love her children (in a warm, unconditional way, and all of them at once), like living in a bigger group was an issue.
When you talk about being unable to love her children, was she so much worse than her Hanoverian predecessors, or maybe even less bad than some of them? In the context of what was common at the time, things were bad but in my view they could also have been so very much worse.
Comparing how Victoria was raised & how the late Queen Elizabeth II was raised, Queen Elizabeth II definitely had the better childhood, despite growing up during the London blitz
@@sheilarough236 Maybe it would be more relevant to say that Queen Elisabeth II had a more modern upbringing, and anything closer to our own time is going to accord better with modern sensibilities than a child's upbringing almost two centuries ago.
I remember reading in a book about her sister Feodora, who was the only sibling who shared for few years the Kensington System. In the book it's said that her sister hastily married at 18 in order to escape Kensington (if she had to remain single she would had to keep living with her mother and sister). But it's interesting that I never read anything from her sister. I think her sister's opinion would had been much more insightful as she was older and could see things differently.
@@learnenglishwithauntyjeanp1646 That was when Albert died. Her sister likely either referred to her as sister, Drina (same as their mother), or by her title.
I am shocked by the Kensington System. I am always amazed that Queen Victoria was able to rise above it as soon as she was Queen. It is clear that others (not her mother and Conroy), had a good influence on her. Given what men thought of women, and the weakness of the Duchess, it is clear to me that Conroy meant/planned to control the future queen to gain power for himself. He did not care how the princess was raised as long as it looked like they were caring for the child, but that the child would completely depend on him. Thankfully, that backfired.
Unfortunately that system left a mark on Victoria. She would go on and do some of those behaviours to her own children in particular to her own daughters. The way she clung onto her youngest daughter was simply alarming. She also belittled her daughters for breast feeding their babies. She even named a cow after her daughter Alice.
Something that comes to the top of my mind when considering how Victoria was raised is that life was fragile and unpredictable. People died like flies, especially children. If Victoria caught one of the many deadly diseases, all hopes for a Queen Victoria would be lost. If she fell down the stairs and was severely injured, there was no modern medicine to put her back together again. It must have been terrifying for any parents to try to raise children in those times.
To some extent this still resonates with parents today, as many today argue whether our aversion to risk in modern times does not end up creating an environment which brings up children coddled in cotton wool, where we do not even allow them to have any sense of independent life and constantly under the supervision of adults at all times, and constantly fearful of strangers (especially male strangers), lest some harm befall them.
Yes, infant mortality shockingly high compared to today in the UK. What we consider minor inconveniences like the common cold or a minor infection could prove deadly.
The only thing in Victoria's life as maddening as the Kensington System was Albert all but displacing her from the throne and treating her like...well...a Victorian woman as her pregnancies strained her body!!! Everyone has such romantic ideas about her and Albert, but the way she had to apologize for her emotional outbursts like SHE was some recalcitrant child and once more found herself cut out of decisions and restricted despite BEING the Crown infuriates me! Of course, she and Albert also did terrible things in trying to raise monarchs and those destined to marry monarchs, too. It was better than the Kensington System, but they were even less free than she was, never truly breaking free in most cases!
I think it’s obvious that the ‘Kensington System’ was designed to render Victoria totally dependent on her mother and Conroy so that they could control her. Conroy may have convinced the Duchess that they were trying to protect Victoria physically and morally, but he was interested only in controlling Victoria and appropriating her power and wealth. However, I don’t think the Duchess was far behind Conroy in her ambitions, either. The key points that would prove this are: Conroy trying to force Victoria to make him her permanent secretary when she was so ill, and the Duchess refusing to let Victoria have her own household.
I’d say one of the considerations of how to view the Kensington system should be the results - not just for Queen Victoria but for her own children and forward. Inter generational trauma and cycles of abuse that result from them are very real. Breaking them is nearly impossible when you can’t see that what was “normal” in your household was actually abusive, toxic, and/or manipulative. Even when you can recognize that a specific behavior was abusive, may not be able to recognize the ways in which others were also harmful. And that’s not even getting into the issues of the conflicting emotions regarding a parent who, despite being abusive, was/is still loved. Have a feeling the echoes of the way Princess Alexandrina was raised are still ringing in Kensington Palace intentionally or not.
I agree. Only I also think the Hanoverian curse started that toxicity long before. The royal way was always bizarre but the Hanovers trend of spite and selfishness between parents and children seems to have become inter generational trauma normalized, not only in the family but also within the household (staff). Somehow although she didn’t know them, Victoria would still do to her children what George III and his wife did to theirs - “demonize” the boys and “imprison” the girls!
I disagree that the way Queen Victoria was raised is still ringing in Kensington. All three of the Wales kids have gone to regular school, starting at three years old. They have a lot of social interaction. They don’t even go by their titles at school, this way they learn they are the same as everyone else. William and Kate both put a HUGE emphasis on nature and outdoor play. They have been spotted playing rough and riding bikes outside many, many times. That doesn’t even compare to an 18 year old young woman who isn’t allowed to go up stairs without holding someone’s hand. The Wales children are also brought into the spotlight slowly. Apart from being shown off on the hospital steps after birth, they don’t attend a royal event until their 4th or 5th Christmas. (The ages varied due to birthdates and COVID.) The Wales kids are also taught to be charitable and giving from early childhood. There is footage of Prince George helping his grandma make Christmas puddings to hand out on Boxing Day. I know they are also taught things like picking up their toys, cleaning up after themselves, how to dress and groom themselves, to have good manors, and to be respectful of adults from a young age. That may not seem like much, but there are many wealthy adults who don’t do anything for themselves. It’s also a stark contrast to Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip always having someone dress and undress them. Katherine, Princess of Wales is involved in MANY charities that specialize in early childhood development and children’s mental health, so I truly believe she had educated herself on this matter. I think the only similarity between Queen Victoria’s upbringing and the Wales kids upbringing is that QV and TWK all had the same nanny (one shared nanny for TWK) since they were born.
I grew up in a very disfunctional family and I can understand Victoria's actions when she was able to make her own decisions. There is, in my case anyway, a strong back and forth with my relationship with my parents. Loved them because they were my parents but didn't like them as people. Adding the throne on top of all of it. Wow amazing she was as great a queen as she was.
@@tilseptember I loved my (now deceased) mother too and she had many friends - but they never saw the cruel personality who emerged when "behind closed doors". I wouldn't have been my mother's friend either, knowing what I knew.
“ I do think that one of the things that the House of Hanover is perhaps best known for is their capacity to fall out with each other.” One of the things I love most about your videos, Dr. Kat, is your penchant for understatement. 😂 Thanks for another lovely video.
I always felt so bad for Victoria. I was raised very strictly, having my days scheduled since I was 3 years old, but GOD, Victoria had to deal with A LOT. Like, my days were full of never-ending lessons and stuff but my well-being and happiness were always my family's priority. Poor Victoria lived a nightmare! I'm pretty sure you are a great mom, Dr. Kat! Making mistakes is a part of parenting, you learn and grow with your kid and with love, patience and effort, mistakes will be occurring less and less until they will matter only for what you learned from it! ❤
@@WhiteCamryone of the reason that the Duke of Kent chose Princess Victoria of Saxe- Coburg was that she was a widow who had given birth successfully, twice. It showed that she could give him an heir
Fascinating as always. I recall when I first moved to London from Australia, on the usual right of passage we Australians do. At first I lived and worked in Bayswater and then Kensington, one street parallel to Kensington Palace (right across the street from the Russian Embassy, can you imagine that now?). Every lunch time I would stroll to the gardens to get some peace and eat. Since I was there alone, as I walked past the Palace to go to my favourite oak, with all it's ravens, I would stop and say hi to Victoria (yes I know she wasn't there, but her statue was). It was just a little ritual to feel a little less alone in the crowded and very loud city. As to the ravens, they became chums and would pop down and eat with me. I miss those ravens.
I’ve heard that Conroy and Victoria’s mother were hoping to control Victoria when she became Queen. So perhaps they were keeping her safe and healthy and under their watch in their own best interests, not Victoria’s
What a lucky little boy your son is!! It is every parent’s role to try to foresee what they are presently doing that will, or won’t , have to be answered for in the future. But, for what it’s worth, I wholeheartedly concur with your feeling that Victoria’s early years would have blighted her soul in some way. It is so dark, and sick, and sort of dirty. I remember learning that Prince Albert was appalled at the filth of Buckingham palace and strived to just make it cleaner. My 21 century mind will never be able to grasp that one could ever be happy in such sumptuous but unhealthily restrictive circumstances. 18:58
How much is known about Lehzen? A video on her would be fascinating! What was it about her that made Albert send her away? Was she perhaps empowering Victoria to stand up to him?
I feel I can relate somewhat to Victoria. I grew up with a mother whose sole identity was based on being a Good Mother and as a result justified her mental and emotional abuse as 'doing it because she loves me." I have no doubt that my mother loved me, albeit in a sick and twisted way, but to use "love" as the justification for abuse, no matter how sincere that "love" may be, really really pisses me off. So despite how much Victoria's mother may or may not have "loved" her, in my mind she's an evil beach and terrible mother. As far as Conroy is concerned... in my mind he was power hungry and complicit in Victoria's abuse. I'm sure he told himself he was acting for The Good Of The Nation, but bad people always wrap themselves in virtue (God, the flag, etc) in order to deflect criticism and make themselves feel better, in much the same way Victoria's mother wrapped herself in concerned motherhood, and my own mother did in "love."
At no point did the Dowager Duchess allow physical abuse of a haemophiliac, or force a child with a disabled arm to repeatedly put it inside a dead animal carcass. So that’s an improvement on her daughter and granddaughter.
I know like Victoria a little out of your preferred time period, but I’d love a video on the obstetrician Marian Theodore Charlotte Heidenreich von Siebold.
Dr Kat,I'm going to enjoy commenting. I like how you told the story then posited different possible interpretations. I knew nothing about Queen Victorias childhood (I just assumed she grew up in wealth and splendour) until I came across "The Captive of Kensington Palace" by Jean Plaidy. I read most of the books by this author after that. They are very well researched and she makes or made even minor characters interesting like all those Phillipas and Isabellas who married medieval Kings. I have a lot of sympathy for Victorias (or Drina's) mother because at least according to Jean Plaidy (one of the authors pen names) at least one of those Uncle's with a son was widely regarded as highly dubious and not above doing the little girl in. It wasn't seen as an idle myth. I do think that John Conroy had both a controlling nature and an eye for the main chance. I do think her Uncle William recognised the strength of character in his niece and I do think he hung on until he knew it was safe to let go as I've known that sort of thing happen. I'm sure you're a great Mum to your kid.
I mean, I can understand that they did everything they could to make sure she would live to adulthood. Considering child mortality back then, the fear of loosing the heir to the throne was very real. But not even giving the princess and future queen her own bedroom is bizarre. And trying to bully a gravely ill teenager into giving up her independece when she is Queen (that is what it boils down to) is something else. And of course that backfired.
At the start I couldn't envisage condoning the upbringing but now it's in context I can at least see why certain choices might have been made eg the shared bedroom is a way of ensuring no rumours about purity. I still am very against it though - let the kid play with friends for gods sake! And I do wonder how such an upbringing influenced her own parenting.
Oddly I loved this so much. My one and only goal in my life that means the most, I never want to be the main reason my child needs therapy. If I succeed in doing that, Not screwing up so badly that is scars her in some deep way, then I can be laid to rest peacefully. Also, knowing that she is kind,polite and caring. I love her so much, these looks back in history of others parenting,royal or not. It's eye opening for sure. We are never the bad guy in our own perspectives.
It is interesting that you brought up the cycle of parenting in regards to your own son. It made me think of the relationship of Victoria with her own children. It was quite different but Victoria was, like her mother, domineering.
Enjoyed watching you on the show about Lady Rotchford , We’ll Done my friend ✨😉 I might say yes for the times, but for the pressure he put on her when she was ill and also manhandled her to try to get his way..I believe he controlled the mother which in turn had full control of her child..a sad way to be raised.
It seems to me that whoever had ended up raising the young Victoria we're going to be vilified by those who weren't raising her. I also think that she was always going to be under intense pressure This means that her childhood was bound to be difficult, no matter how she was raised.
Thank you, Dr. Kat, for another illuminating video. I believe that by isolating Alexandrina & micromanaging her, Princess Victoria (her mother) set a pattern which Queen Victoria followed. Queen Victoria tried to micromanage the lives of her children, and she was never a warm & loving parent. As For Conroy, I think he was alarmingly ambitious, seeking permanent power & status for himself & his family. Queen Victoria survived her fractious childhood, but I think she was damaged as a result. Her need for masterful father figures (Uncle/King Leopold, Lord Melbourne, Prince Albert, etc.) is evidence of a void in her fatherless life.
Because Queen Victoria kept such extensive journals for the majority of her life, we have an insight into the mind of a monarch. I bet they would be fascinating reading
Thankyou for this intriguing and illuminating topic Dr. Kat. Whilst I'm here, I'd love to mention the incredible, amazing and beyond hilarious series of 'History After Dark' which you and your two fellow historians present here on TH-cam and simultaneously on Instagram each week. It's so extremely informative and has me laughing aloud the whole way through for well over an hour 🤣. Each episode is funnier and naughtier than the last. Please don't ever stop and a massive Thankyou for all your hard work❤.
Ooooooooo just saw you on the Lady Rochford HH ! I was just listening to it.... then I heard your voice & stopped everything to watch your segment! You Go Girl !!
I believe both her mother and John Conroy were motivated by the prospect of power and deliberately tried to shape the princess to be dependent on them both practically and psychosocially. I've read about Prince Albert's childhood and the ways he was raised, which is indicative of the era, their specific family, and royal child-rearing. His childhood was totally different from hers, so the "Kensington System" had to have been deliberately developed to break down and mold the future queen for personal gain by the duchess and Conroy. They deserve to be judged harshly because they were acted despicably!
Reading some of the comments about intergenerational cycles of abuse , I was reminded of the very strict system that was imposed upon young Kaiser Wilhelm II by his parents. I always thought that caused him to turn out so crazy. His mother was Queen Victorias daughter....If only someone could have called Child protective Service...
In my opinion, the current era is too concerned with judging history, rather than learning from history. Certainly, we may have our own viewpoints about certain things, and we can agree that things like murder, assault, robbery, etc. are wrong no matter when they were committed, but I believe we need to be very careful not to judge the behavior of those in history by the yardstick of what we consider acceptable and right in this time. Thank you Dr. Kat for making the point that we can form opinions about the Kensington Method from the vantage point of hindsight, but we cannot really understand what it was to raise a future queen (or any child) under those circumstances.
Before the story starts I want to thank you (via sponsorship) for introducing History Hit, I’ve been suckered in for the 7 Deadly Sins. I wonder if they’ll do the Virtues?
How exciting that Dr. Kat doing the Kensington system, I knew it was going to be good, and you DID NOT disappoint . I love your content, I especially loved this one. Much love from the American southwest 🌾🤠
Dr Kat I have always been very interested in Victoria .I have read lots of books on her and her diaries and letters but you have come up with some facts I have never heard before .I love your style of presenting in such an engaging ,natural way and your humour . Thank you ,your videos have become a Friday treat for me .
I agree with Kindred Spirit below, that an isolated only child has relationship difficulties and that these played out in Victoria's entire life. Also, her, and Albert's method of raising Bertie leaves much to be desired. The moral issue was forminable at that point in our history and had she emulated her Uncles, it could well have been the end of our British monarchy, so perhaps that was something to consider too.
I believe that the Kensington System was extreme to be right, just as the Dickensian System was extreme to the left. This leads me to believe that sometimes love takes a second seat to obligation. There is a major difference between being a good parent and being a good provider.
Thank you for an interesting and for me, an unknown topic. I had not heard of the Kensington manner of raising Victoria. Thank you for furthering my education on this very interesting and complicated young woman.
This was very interesting! Thanks for posting. I was recently gifted a William IV coin. I was so excited. Considering his short reign, there weren't as many printed for circulation as Victoria. I hope to find all the George's to add to my collection one day!
First of all, yes I checked and I’m still subscribed ✅ Second, thank you SO much for covering the Kensington system/Victoria’s childhood. While her long life and reign has been studied intensively, I think her early years are often neglected. Finally, would you please make a video on the children of King George III, and specifically why so many of them either married late in life or never married at all? It’s fascinating that for all his children, there was a comparatively small number of (legitimate) grandchildren. Thank you for your research and insights; they’re much appreciated! Cheers from the U.S.
George III and his wife Caroline were extremely resistant to his their daughters getting married, George because his two sisters had absolutely awful husbands and Charlotte because she didn’t want her daughters to be constantly pregnant like she was. As for the boys, they were all very reckless and hedonistic. They married late because they were too busy with their mistresses.
loved this video please do more on QV i am sure that Prince William is using some modern day form of the Kensington System in order to prepare his son to become the future king since QE1 played a part in how QV was raised a compare and contrast video about QE1 and QV would be a nice next step video keep up the good work i almost unsubscribed but i enjoy the sound of your voice so i stayed on the last 3 videos shows that this turned out to be a very good idea good day and thanks
The children of the late Queen Elizabeth were supposed to have a special diet while they were still in the nursery. I wonder if that tradition continues on with William's and Catherine's children?
I believe the Duchess was more interested in securing the throne for her family (and for the influence she believed it would confer on her particularly) than she was in Victoria's short-term happiness. Further, I believe this was carried forward and shown in how Victoria interacted with her own children, predominantly the daughters.
My mum(a mother of 6) thought Queen Victoria's Mother was insane because she'd cut her child out of the Royal family, we grew up in a 2up 2 down terrace house that not only rang to our laughter but also that of cousins, friends and any child we liked. I had a fascination with girls who were only children with big bedrooms all to themselves. I followed my mum's example and even as a single parent allowed my 2 kids to bring friends home. As a family we all made the effort to bring our kids together in the school holidays so that they were close.
Great video, as always! Oddly enough, I was just looking this up yesterday! I'm so glad you decided to cover this subject. You are ever thorough and fascinating! Great job.
I’m largely in agreement with Anna Lisette. I think the bedrock of the Kensington System was keeping the princess safe, well, and unharmed, so that she could get to the throne. Alexandrina Victoria was in essence a business proposition for her mother and Conroy: her well-being was supposed to guarantee their success and wealth. I’ve never gotten much sense that the Duchess of Kent *loved* her daughter in any way we’d recognize.
This is what I love so much about your channel, your presentation is always so thought-provoking. I have also always been very uncomfortable about the Kensington System, it really makes me feel sick. I can, however, understand many of the likely motivations behind it, some of which are not outrageous. In a time of so much childhood mortality, and in an environment that had two extremes of 'moral depravity' and extreme conservatism, as well as a significant dearth of legitimate heirs, I can understand why the Dowager Duchess and Conroy would want to protect and nurture the future Queen in a way that was most likely to keep her alive and sustain their worldview. Even if they understood that such a closeted and strict upbringing would be somewhat detrimental to her as a person, the stakes would likely have been considered too high and the future of an entire empire worth safeguarding.
You say it every time, and it finally happened to me. TH-cam mysteriously unsubscribed me. I’ve been wondering why I haven’t been notified about new videos from the channel…
Mothers are often criticized by daughters, sometimes deservedly & sometimes not. On the occasions when I have rightfully needed to apologize to my daughter, I followed it up with “luckily you will now never make this particular mistake, but don’t worry, you will make completely different ones.” As always, I very much enjoy your content.
I can only speak for my own lived experiences but they do lend some perspective on this topic. As someone who unfortunately had an unhappy childhood and has been in therapy for close to a decade due to its influences on relationships in my adult life. I do empathize with Victoria's raising in the Kensington system. Through my own work on myself, I have been better able to understand my parent's reasons, all be it wholly traumatic at the time. Their techniques were considered traditional child rearing, but are known to be abusive and neglectful in modern child psychology. I had stopped most contact with my parents for close to 5 years after moving out. So the period that Victoria keeps from her mother for 3 years sounds like a possible response to trauma. Victoria also as a young adult is trying to determine who she is as a person. Many young adults may be more distant from their families while they go through this period of self-actualization. My nephew in his 20s is going through this with my sister at the moment but you have to let the young person work through it and be there for support if needed. It makes sense after their marriage, Letson was sent away not that the Queen was not in need of a governess. They have to make their decisions as a couple without unnecessary input from others. Victoria's marriage to Albert and consequently the decades of child-rearing of their many children definitely were influenced by how the Queen was raised in her childhood. The results can be seen in many letter correspondence from Victoria to her various children and their critical tone most of the time. I would describe her letters as manipulative, although the royal court very much works on this mindset most of the time, even modernly. So I try to keep the times in their context, as to what was acceptable. I would say that Victoria's relationship with her mother changed over time, lending to her reaction to her mother's death. Relationships with family are a living thing that ebb and flow through one's life. I felt guilt after my mother's passing from her second battle with cancer. Although I did a dutiful job as a daughter, I was present at all her chemo treatments. Despite the challenges, we were able to enjoy some moments together. The cycle comes full circle when you are cleaning up your parent after they took care of you when you were little. There is beauty in the cycle of life and I can look back on the experience and say I did my best work and have some great snuggles for it. Even if the past was harsh, there can be happiness depending on what you hold onto in your heart. In conclusion, I wouldn't praise the Kensington System for the resulting successful reign of Queen Victoria. The results are still up for debate even this far out in time, depending on the source you are reading from regarding her state of mind and effectiveness as a Monarch. In my assessment, Victoria very much has a memorable reign in history that seemed effective for her times.
Nah. I've thought it over and I think it came from a want of power - Conroy wanting power over the throne, the to be Queen and her mum. It seems they used isolation and intimidation - and he wouldn't have tried to get the girl to sign the regency papers when she was ill if it hadn't been for selfish reasons. Whatever their desire, the emotional wellbeing of the little-girl wasn't one. They remind me of those massively repulsive family bloggers, which I know is a stretch but there you go - draining their child for every last bit of clout they can claw. Disgusting.
as usual, you find the most interesting perspectives! i've always been very much in the "Conroy was feathering his own nest" camp but, yeah, it is worth thinking about - if his objective was power, why did he treat Victoria in such a way that would in all likelihood (and as he would have to have realised) make her despise him. why not cultivate her so she'd be more likely to keep him close? and why, if he and her mother were so controlling, would they let her keep a governess who was teaching her to be independent and to stand up for herself? it is an interesting alternative to think about. (or....simply...he truly was a bastard who was gambling on William dying before she came of age so he could take control through her mother...) but if the study of history has taught us anything, its that these figures are rarely as simple as we want them to be. thanks for another illuminating video.
Often men like Conroy look down on women sufficiently that it wouldn’t have occurred to him that the governess was an issue. Further, what if the governess was wise to Conroy enough that she taught the Princess not to show her independent streak to Conroy? He might have had no warning that she was going to take a stand until he was pushing her to sign paperwork?
King William had been sick for some time and was in his mid sixties when he became king. So they had every reason to expect him to die earlier. Conroy attempted to isolate her further towards the end of Williams life by cutting her off from any supporters she had. He had a typical controlling abusive personality. He gaslit her regularly and claimed typhoid was just a whim she had to avoid the tours. He was a toxic man and I wholeheartedly agree with Queen Victoria's assessment of him. Chances are that he was hoping to more or less sequester her when she became 18 and never relinquish control like he was Richard III.
Thank you for this video and for your excellent explanation from beginning to end. You eloquently achieved the goal you set for yourself regarding the subject matter ❤ I would love to dig into all of the psychological consequences of the child Victoria being infantilized. I am almost 64 years old and I still have to work on my own issues, especially deep seated anger and guilt, that is the result of my being infantilized by my mother (and having an emotional absent Father.) I wasn’t being raised to be a queen 👸🏼 or any type of royalty 😊. But, it can happen for a number of other reasons. Thank you again for your insight, Dr. Marchant. P.S. Even if the Mother is very loving and adoring of the child, it is not normal and, as in my own case as well, anger and resentment will come out eventually just like with Queen Victoria
Hi love your show ❤ I just finished watching you on queen Victoria I think I had heard that after her mother died she was going threw her mums things came across all the sweet things of Victoria’s that she had kept also a diary that showed Victoria how much her mum loved her to be a lonely child it’s wrong but like we say in history it’s what they did in those days
🙏Thanks Dr Kat! Just curious... yes, Queen Victoria's childhood/parental units were horrible, so then why didn't she use that experience and do better by her own children? both she and Albert had a very dysfunctional "child rearing system" of their own ?🤔
Not even responds to abuse by “doing better”. Even when you know you didn’t like it, it’s difficult not to repeat the abuse you experienced in your formative years - it’s all you know. This isn’t unique to royals
I think it was somewhat because she didn't know how to do better and somewhat because she didn't care enough about them to do better. Or maybe she thought she was doing the right thing because she wasn't sitting on top of them constantly like she had growing up but she went to the other extreme and she didn't include the love her kids needed. It's sad. Who knows if she had been different then maybe her children would have parented differently and if that happened... maybe her eldest daughter Victoria might have raised her son better and we wouldn't have had WW1? Always interesting to think about the wars that have happened with her children, grandchildren or great grandchildren as the royals of the lands involved. 🤯
I try to keep in mind that Victorians believed that human children and their personalities were 100% malleable, like clay. On the other hand, I think 9 children would debunk that theory.
I too keep a diary and I hope that perhaps some day ( maybe afer 500 ) years later historians might use my diary as reference to the history!!!! If it does happens they would definitely think that in our times the worst thing is schools and maths 😁😅
I used to keep a journal and I had the fantasy that one day it might be regarded in much the same way that modern readers view the diary, or pillowbook, of Sei Shonagon. Alas, I lack her wit and discerning eye. But, who knows what future readers might want to read? I wish you good fortune with you epistilogical endeavor!
I applaud you for trying to argue both sides on this topic (and the others you bring to us). But, like you, I think the Kensington System must have been horrible. I don't know how growing up in that much isolation and with that much control over EVERYTHING (i.e., sleeping in the same room as her mother and being made to hold someone's hand if she descended the stairs!) must have been quite oppressive, especially once she became a teen and would naturally been craving more independence. Maybe it toughened her up, though, because she did push Conroy and her mother aside as soon as she could!
What a dreadful and dreary childhood she had! My own experience, as well as those of friends, leads me to conclude that royal or no, mothers and daughters in western society often have complicated relationships. My mother really wanted me to become her "mini-me," and when I decidedly did not, she called me rebellious (don't get me wrong; we got on very well for the most part and I miss her). I find myself cheering for the young Queen as she pushes her controlling keepers away and pretty much does her adulthood the way she wants to (within reason).
Kat, you are quietly hilarious at times, "One of the things that the house of Hanover is perhaps best known for is their capacity to fall out with each other". So cutting, so deadpan :-)
I think the Kensington system would have been horrible to live through. I suspect her mother isolated and coddled Victoria out of clingy love and fear- the ultimate helicopter parent. The duchess just didn’t process that her daughter was a whole person who had needs for friends, adventure, and privacy instead of a helpless infant, and thus always treated Victoria as such. Conroy, on the other hand, was absolutely a snake who manipulated the duchess’s worry for his own ends. Looking at you, intimidating a deathly ill girl for power. Shout out to William IV for saying “I will live long enough to get my niece away from that fucker”, he was a real one.
I share the same feelings about Victoria’s upbringing, it was emotionally abusive. It was nothing new in history, ambitious adults trying to control royal children for their own ambition and personal gain. I blame her mother for allowing that creep Conroy to dominate Victoria.
Creepy Conroy had two females to dominate, Duchess Victoiré (Mummy), and Princess Alexandrina (the future Queen Victoria). It's all Creepy Conroy's fault!
Re Victoria’s grief at her mother’s death: in my experience, people from abusive homes sometimes mourn more profoundly than people with happy memories of their childhoods. I think maybe it’s because when an abusive parent dies, the possibility of closure and healing dies with them. 😢
I agree completely as that is what happened to me. My mother was emotionally distant with me, I never did a single thing right. When she passed, I was in severe depression for over 3 years, believing incorrectly that if I just had a little more time, I could somehow "fix" our relationship. Now, 6 years after her death, while I know I could never improve our relationship, I have so many regrets, I still feel responsible for the way I was treated.
Queen Victoria was so isolated from other children growing up that I fear she couldn't relate to her own children. Other biographers have mentioned this awkward relationship with her children. I know it's a monarch's duty to provide an heir to the throne but she was so in love with her husband I think she'd have been happy to be childless. That would give her all her spare time toward her consort. She counted on him to help her with her reign. After his death she was not happy to be reigning alone and withdrew. I cannot see that such a strict method of schooling etc. was really an advantage to her. I feel sorry for her lonely childhood as well. However, my mother always said my sister and I did not come with a training manual. So to each his own.
Regardless of differences in childrearing across centuries, it's hard to imagine that raising the future queen in near isolation would be beneficial for her. Discounting the plus side of avoiding childhood illnesses, the downsides limited her abilities to form relationships with different people; it made her spoiled and demanding, unable to compromise and at the same time caused her to form dependencies on others throughout her life (Albert, Disraeli, Brown, her poor daughter Beatrice). She seemed unable to love her children (in a warm, unconditional way, and all of them at once), like living in a bigger group was an issue.
I Couldn’t agree more!👍🏻
When you talk about being unable to love her children, was she so much worse than her Hanoverian predecessors, or maybe even less bad than some of them?
In the context of what was common at the time, things were bad but in my view they could also have been so very much worse.
Comparing how Victoria was raised & how the late Queen Elizabeth II was raised, Queen Elizabeth II definitely had the better childhood, despite growing up during the London blitz
@@sheilarough236 Maybe it would be more relevant to say that Queen Elisabeth II had a more modern upbringing, and anything closer to our own time is going to accord better with modern sensibilities than a child's upbringing almost two centuries ago.
@@Hfil66 At least the children had each other for companionship...and they could also have more chance of having fun and ''''toughening up
I remember reading in a book about her sister Feodora, who was the only sibling who shared for few years the Kensington System. In the book it's said that her sister hastily married at 18 in order to escape Kensington (if she had to remain single she would had to keep living with her mother and sister). But it's interesting that I never read anything from her sister. I think her sister's opinion would had been much more insightful as she was older and could see things differently.
I read somewhere that when her sister died, she either said or wrote, " Now there is no-one left to call me Victoria.. "
@@learnenglishwithauntyjeanp1646 That was when Albert died. Her sister likely either referred to her as sister, Drina (same as their mother), or by her title.
I am shocked by the Kensington System. I am always amazed that Queen Victoria was able to rise above it as soon as she was Queen. It is clear that others (not her mother and Conroy), had a good influence on her. Given what men thought of women, and the weakness of the Duchess, it is clear to me that Conroy meant/planned to control the future queen to gain power for himself. He did not care how the princess was raised as long as it looked like they were caring for the child, but that the child would completely depend on him. Thankfully, that backfired.
Unfortunately that system left a mark on Victoria. She would go on and do some of those behaviours to her own children in particular to her own daughters. The way she clung onto her youngest daughter was simply alarming. She also belittled her daughters for breast feeding their babies. She even named a cow after her daughter Alice.
@@cherrytraveller5915 good point.
Something that comes to the top of my mind when considering how Victoria was raised is that life was fragile and unpredictable. People died like flies, especially children. If Victoria caught one of the many deadly diseases, all hopes for a Queen Victoria would be lost. If she fell down the stairs and was severely injured, there was no modern medicine to put her back together again. It must have been terrifying for any parents to try to raise children in those times.
To some extent this still resonates with parents today, as many today argue whether our aversion to risk in modern times does not end up creating an environment which brings up children coddled in cotton wool, where we do not even allow them to have any sense of independent life and constantly under the supervision of adults at all times, and constantly fearful of strangers (especially male strangers), lest some harm befall them.
I guess one of the many reasons people had so many kids back then.
@@--enyo-- well, that and the lack of effective birth control.
R ♥️🥰
Yes, infant mortality shockingly high compared to today in the UK. What we consider minor inconveniences like the common cold or a minor infection could prove deadly.
The only thing in Victoria's life as maddening as the Kensington System was Albert all but displacing her from the throne and treating her like...well...a Victorian woman as her pregnancies strained her body!!! Everyone has such romantic ideas about her and Albert, but the way she had to apologize for her emotional outbursts like SHE was some recalcitrant child and once more found herself cut out of decisions and restricted despite BEING the Crown infuriates me! Of course, she and Albert also did terrible things in trying to raise monarchs and those destined to marry monarchs, too. It was better than the Kensington System, but they were even less free than she was, never truly breaking free in most cases!
I think it’s obvious that the ‘Kensington System’ was designed to render Victoria totally dependent on her mother and Conroy so that they could control her. Conroy may have convinced the Duchess that they were trying to protect Victoria physically and morally, but he was interested only in controlling Victoria and appropriating her power and wealth. However, I don’t think the Duchess was far behind Conroy in her ambitions, either. The key points that would prove this are: Conroy trying to force Victoria to make him her permanent secretary when she was so ill, and the Duchess refusing to let Victoria have her own household.
I’d say one of the considerations of how to view the Kensington system should be the results - not just for Queen Victoria but for her own children and forward. Inter generational trauma and cycles of abuse that result from them are very real. Breaking them is nearly impossible when you can’t see that what was “normal” in your household was actually abusive, toxic, and/or manipulative. Even when you can recognize that a specific behavior was abusive, may not be able to recognize the ways in which others were also harmful. And that’s not even getting into the issues of the conflicting emotions regarding a parent who, despite being abusive, was/is still loved. Have a feeling the echoes of the way Princess Alexandrina was raised are still ringing in Kensington Palace intentionally or not.
I agree. Only I also think the Hanoverian curse started that toxicity long before. The royal way was always bizarre but the Hanovers trend of spite and selfishness between parents and children seems to have become inter generational trauma normalized, not only in the family but also within the household (staff). Somehow although she didn’t know them, Victoria would still do to her children what George III and his wife did to theirs - “demonize” the boys and “imprison” the girls!
I disagree that the way Queen Victoria was raised is still ringing in Kensington. All three of the Wales kids have gone to regular school, starting at three years old. They have a lot of social interaction. They don’t even go by their titles at school, this way they learn they are the same as everyone else. William and Kate both put a HUGE emphasis on nature and outdoor play. They have been spotted playing rough and riding bikes outside many, many times. That doesn’t even compare to an 18 year old young woman who isn’t allowed to go up stairs without holding someone’s hand. The Wales children are also brought into the spotlight slowly. Apart from being shown off on the hospital steps after birth, they don’t attend a royal event until their 4th or 5th Christmas. (The ages varied due to birthdates and COVID.) The Wales kids are also taught to be charitable and giving from early childhood. There is footage of Prince George helping his grandma make Christmas puddings to hand out on Boxing Day. I know they are also taught things like picking up their toys, cleaning up after themselves, how to dress and groom themselves, to have good manors, and to be respectful of adults from a young age. That may not seem like much, but there are many wealthy adults who don’t do anything for themselves. It’s also a stark contrast to Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip always having someone dress and undress them. Katherine, Princess of Wales is involved in MANY charities that specialize in early childhood development and children’s mental health, so I truly believe she had educated herself on this matter. I think the only similarity between Queen Victoria’s upbringing and the Wales kids upbringing is that QV and TWK all had the same nanny (one shared nanny for TWK) since they were born.
I grew up in a very disfunctional family and I can understand Victoria's actions when she was able to make her own decisions. There is, in my case anyway, a strong back and forth with my relationship with my parents. Loved them because they were my parents but didn't like them as people. Adding the throne on top of all of it. Wow amazing she was as great a queen as she was.
I once said of my mother that I love her but if she wasn’t my mother I wouldn’t be her friend lol
@@tilseptember I loved my (now deceased) mother too and she had many friends - but they never saw the cruel personality who emerged when "behind closed doors". I wouldn't have been my mother's friend either, knowing what I knew.
“ I do think that one of the things that the House of Hanover is perhaps best known for is their capacity to fall out with each other.” One of the things I love most about your videos, Dr. Kat, is your penchant for understatement. 😂
Thanks for another lovely video.
This gives me an idea as to why she was Victoria was so cruel to her own children after her husband died. She learned it at her mother's knee!
I actually said “ooh!” when I saw the title. I’m looking forward to this. Thank you.
So did I !
@@joshubrook324 Same for me!
I always felt so bad for Victoria. I was raised very strictly, having my days scheduled since I was 3 years old, but GOD, Victoria had to deal with A LOT. Like, my days were full of never-ending lessons and stuff but my well-being and happiness were always my family's priority. Poor Victoria lived a nightmare!
I'm pretty sure you are a great mom, Dr. Kat! Making mistakes is a part of parenting, you learn and grow with your kid and with love, patience and effort, mistakes will be occurring less and less until they will matter only for what you learned from it! ❤
Can't compare how people responded in Early Victorian era from modern comfort view. Everyone was mentally tougher then.
@@charliesmith_ true. Yet, it's heartbreaking 🥺
Oh, yes, this! Dr. Kat, no one who is as tender-hearted *&* fair-minded about "The Kensington System" could EVER be a bad parent!!
William iv deserves a good uncle award for forcing himself to live long enough to spare victoria a regency.
I never knew that Queen Victoria had siblings. I am quite curious as to what happened to them. Dr Kat always manages to teach me something new.
Alexandrina Victoria was an only child. She had two cousins near her age, but they were kept at a distance under the "Kensington System."
@@WhiteCamry She wasn’t an only child. Her mother had other children.
She had two half siblings from her mother's first marriage
@@WhiteCamryone of the reason that the Duke of Kent chose Princess Victoria of Saxe- Coburg was that she was a widow who had given birth successfully, twice. It showed that she could give him an heir
They both married, and lived in Germany. I can't find anything that said she knew her brother, but she wrote to her sister a lot.
Dear Dr Kat, love your channel by the way. The Kensington system was less about raising a queen and more about raising a controlable sock puppet.
Fascinating as always. I recall when I first moved to London from Australia, on the usual right of passage we Australians do. At first I lived and worked in Bayswater and then Kensington, one street parallel to Kensington Palace (right across the street from the Russian Embassy, can you imagine that now?). Every lunch time I would stroll to the gardens to get some peace and eat. Since I was there alone, as I walked past the Palace to go to my favourite oak, with all it's ravens, I would stop and say hi to Victoria (yes I know she wasn't there, but her statue was). It was just a little ritual to feel a little less alone in the crowded and very loud city. As to the ravens, they became chums and would pop down and eat with me. I miss those ravens.
I’ve heard that Conroy and Victoria’s mother were hoping to control Victoria when she became Queen. So perhaps they were keeping her safe and healthy and under their watch in their own best interests, not Victoria’s
What a lucky little boy your son is!! It is every parent’s role to try to foresee what they are presently doing that will, or won’t , have to be answered for in the future. But, for what it’s worth, I wholeheartedly concur with your feeling that Victoria’s early years would have blighted her soul in some way. It is so dark, and sick, and sort of dirty. I remember learning that Prince Albert was appalled at the filth of Buckingham palace and strived to just make it cleaner. My 21 century mind will never be able to grasp that one could ever be happy in such sumptuous but unhealthily restrictive circumstances. 18:58
How much is known about Lehzen? A video on her would be fascinating! What was it about her that made Albert send her away? Was she perhaps empowering Victoria to stand up to him?
I feel I can relate somewhat to Victoria. I grew up with a mother whose sole identity was based on being a Good Mother and as a result justified her mental and emotional abuse as 'doing it because she loves me." I have no doubt that my mother loved me, albeit in a sick and twisted way, but to use "love" as the justification for abuse, no matter how sincere that "love" may be, really really pisses me off. So despite how much Victoria's mother may or may not have "loved" her, in my mind she's an evil beach and terrible mother.
As far as Conroy is concerned... in my mind he was power hungry and complicit in Victoria's abuse. I'm sure he told himself he was acting for The Good Of The Nation, but bad people always wrap themselves in virtue (God, the flag, etc) in order to deflect criticism and make themselves feel better, in much the same way Victoria's mother wrapped herself in concerned motherhood, and my own mother did in "love."
Truth.
I first learned about the queen’s childhood through the “Royal Diaries” series. I still love them 20 years later.
At no point did the Dowager Duchess allow physical abuse of a haemophiliac, or force a child with a disabled arm to repeatedly put it inside a dead animal carcass. So that’s an improvement on her daughter and granddaughter.
With hemophilia, the mother the female carries the gene and it only shows up in males they had no idea that she had this when she was growing up
I know like Victoria a little out of your preferred time period, but I’d love a video on the obstetrician Marian Theodore Charlotte Heidenreich von Siebold.
Dr Kat,I'm going to enjoy commenting. I like how you told the story then posited different possible interpretations. I knew nothing about Queen Victorias childhood (I just assumed she grew up in wealth and splendour) until I came across "The Captive of Kensington Palace" by Jean Plaidy.
I read most of the books by this author after that. They are very well researched and she makes or made even minor characters interesting like all those Phillipas and Isabellas who married medieval Kings. I have a lot of sympathy for Victorias (or Drina's) mother because at least according to Jean Plaidy (one of the authors pen names) at least one of those Uncle's with a son was widely regarded as highly dubious and not above doing the little girl in. It wasn't seen as an idle myth. I do think that John Conroy had both a controlling nature and an eye for the main chance.
I do think her Uncle William recognised the strength of character in his niece and I do think he hung on until he knew it was safe to let go as I've known that sort of thing happen. I'm sure you're a great Mum to your kid.
"My impression of parenting..." I felt that.😆
I mean, I can understand that they did everything they could to make sure she would live to adulthood. Considering child mortality back then, the fear of loosing the heir to the throne was very real. But not even giving the princess and future queen her own bedroom is bizarre. And trying to bully a gravely ill teenager into giving up her independece when she is Queen (that is what it boils down to) is something else. And of course that backfired.
At the start I couldn't envisage condoning the upbringing but now it's in context I can at least see why certain choices might have been made eg the shared bedroom is a way of ensuring no rumours about purity. I still am very against it though - let the kid play with friends for gods sake! And I do wonder how such an upbringing influenced her own parenting.
There's an interesting story about generational trauma here. I wonder if Victoria's hatred of babies was related to her upbringing
Oddly I loved this so much. My one and only goal in my life that means the most, I never want to be the main reason my child needs therapy. If I succeed in doing that, Not screwing up so badly that is scars her in some deep way, then I can be laid to rest peacefully. Also, knowing that she is kind,polite and caring. I love her so much, these looks back in history of others parenting,royal or not. It's eye opening for sure. We are never the bad guy in our own perspectives.
It is interesting that you brought up the cycle of parenting in regards to your own son. It made me think of the relationship of Victoria with her own children. It was quite different but Victoria was, like her mother, domineering.
Enjoyed watching you on the show about
Lady Rotchford , We’ll Done my friend ✨😉
I might say yes for the times, but for the pressure he put on her when she was ill and also manhandled her to try to get his way..I believe he controlled the mother which in turn had full control of her child..a sad way to be raised.
It seems to me that whoever had ended up raising the young Victoria we're going to be vilified by those who weren't raising her. I also think that she was always going to be under intense pressure This means that her childhood was bound to be difficult, no matter how she was raised.
Thank you, Dr. Kat, for another illuminating video. I believe that by isolating Alexandrina & micromanaging her, Princess Victoria (her mother) set a pattern which Queen Victoria followed. Queen Victoria tried to micromanage the lives of her children, and she was never a warm & loving parent. As For Conroy, I think he was alarmingly ambitious, seeking permanent power & status for himself & his family. Queen Victoria survived her fractious childhood, but I think she was damaged as a result. Her need for masterful father figures (Uncle/King Leopold, Lord Melbourne, Prince Albert, etc.) is evidence of a void in her fatherless life.
Because Queen Victoria kept such extensive journals for the majority of her life, we have an insight into the mind of a monarch. I bet they would be fascinating reading
Thankyou for this intriguing and illuminating topic Dr. Kat.
Whilst I'm here, I'd love to mention the incredible, amazing and beyond hilarious series of 'History After Dark' which you and your two fellow historians present here on TH-cam and simultaneously on Instagram each week.
It's so extremely informative and has me laughing aloud the whole way through for well over an hour 🤣.
Each episode is funnier and naughtier than the last. Please don't ever stop and a massive Thankyou for all your hard work❤.
Just love your videos Dr. Kat! So educational and be be watched at any age! Thanks for your hard work!😄
Ooooooooo just saw you on the Lady Rochford HH ! I was just listening to it.... then I heard your voice & stopped everything to watch your segment! You Go Girl !!
I believe both her mother and John Conroy were motivated by the prospect of power and deliberately tried to shape the princess to be dependent on them both practically and psychosocially. I've read about Prince Albert's childhood and the ways he was raised, which is indicative of the era, their specific family, and royal child-rearing. His childhood was totally different from hers, so the "Kensington System" had to have been deliberately developed to break down and mold the future queen for personal gain by the duchess and Conroy. They deserve to be judged harshly because they were acted despicably!
Reading some of the comments about intergenerational cycles of abuse , I was reminded of the very strict system that was imposed upon young Kaiser Wilhelm II by his parents. I always thought that caused him to turn out so crazy. His mother was Queen Victorias daughter....If only someone could have called Child protective Service...
In my opinion, the current era is too concerned with judging history, rather than learning from history. Certainly, we may have our own viewpoints about certain things, and we can agree that things like murder, assault, robbery, etc. are wrong no matter when they were committed, but I believe we need to be very careful not to judge the behavior of those in history by the yardstick of what we consider acceptable and right in this time. Thank you Dr. Kat for making the point that we can form opinions about the Kensington Method from the vantage point of hindsight, but we cannot really understand what it was to raise a future queen (or any child) under those circumstances.
The way QV was raised was only marginally better than Liz 1's was. But QV's education was far worse than Liz 1's.
Before the story starts I want to thank you (via sponsorship) for introducing History Hit, I’ve been suckered in for the 7 Deadly Sins. I wonder if they’ll do the Virtues?
Excellent. I always look forward to your next video. You approach history with such kindness.
How exciting that Dr. Kat doing the Kensington system, I knew it was going to be good, and you DID NOT disappoint . I love your content, I especially loved this one. Much love from the American southwest 🌾🤠
Dr Kat I have always been very interested in Victoria .I have read lots of books on her and her diaries and letters but you have come up with some facts I have never heard before .I love your style of presenting in such an engaging ,natural way and your humour . Thank you ,your videos have become a Friday treat for me .
I agree with Kindred Spirit below, that an isolated only child has relationship difficulties and that these played out in Victoria's entire life. Also, her, and Albert's method of raising Bertie leaves much to be desired. The moral issue was forminable at that point in our history and had she emulated her Uncles, it could well have been the end of our British monarchy, so perhaps that was something to consider too.
I believe that the Kensington System was extreme to be right, just as the Dickensian System was extreme to the left. This leads me to believe that sometimes love takes a second seat to obligation. There is a major difference between being a good parent and being a good provider.
Looking forward to History Friday with Dr Kat 🌞
Thank you for an interesting and for me, an unknown topic. I had not heard of the Kensington manner of raising Victoria. Thank you for furthering my education on this very interesting and complicated young woman.
I’m really looking forward to this video. I’ve had such a fascination about Queen Victoria since I was very young
This was very interesting! Thanks for posting. I was recently gifted a William IV coin. I was so excited. Considering his short reign, there weren't as many printed for circulation as Victoria. I hope to find all the George's to add to my collection one day!
Only discovered your channel this afternoon and just love your presentation.❤
First of all, yes I checked and I’m still subscribed ✅
Second, thank you SO much for covering the Kensington system/Victoria’s childhood. While her long life and reign has been studied intensively, I think her early years are often neglected.
Finally, would you please make a video on the children of King George III, and specifically why so many of them either married late in life or never married at all? It’s fascinating that for all his children, there was a comparatively small number of (legitimate) grandchildren.
Thank you for your research and insights; they’re much appreciated! Cheers from the U.S.
George III and his wife Caroline were extremely resistant to his their daughters getting married, George because his two sisters had absolutely awful husbands and Charlotte because she didn’t want her daughters to be constantly pregnant like she was. As for the boys, they were all very reckless and hedonistic. They married late because they were too busy with their mistresses.
can you do a video on William IV?? sounds like a really interesting character.
Thanks for this food for thought. The hardest job in the world is being a parent.
One of your best videos yet. Really enjoyed it
loved this video please do more on QV i am sure that Prince William is using some modern day form of the Kensington System in order to prepare his son to become the future king since QE1 played a part in how QV was raised a compare and contrast video about QE1 and QV would be a nice next step video keep up the good work i almost unsubscribed but i enjoy the sound of your voice so i stayed on the last 3 videos shows that this turned out to be a very good idea good day and thanks
The children of the late Queen Elizabeth were supposed to have a special diet while they were still in the nursery. I wonder if that tradition continues on with William's and Catherine's children?
I believe the Duchess was more interested in securing the throne for her family (and for the influence she believed it would confer on her particularly) than she was in Victoria's short-term happiness. Further, I believe this was carried forward and shown in how Victoria interacted with her own children, predominantly the daughters.
Another Brilliant upload ! You NEVER fail to learn us something new Thank you 🙏
Her life explains the distant relationships she had with her own children. She had Albert, and he was very important to her.
Thank you Dr. Kat! Have a great weekend
Brilliant as ever Dr Kat! Have a wonderful evening!
As always, you always break down complex issues in an understandable way. Well done!
My mum(a mother of 6) thought Queen Victoria's Mother was insane because she'd cut her child out of the Royal family, we grew up in a 2up 2 down terrace house that not only rang to our laughter but also that of cousins, friends and any child we liked. I had a fascination with girls who were only children with big bedrooms all to themselves. I followed my mum's example and even as a single parent allowed my 2 kids to bring friends home. As a family we all made the effort to bring our kids together in the school holidays so that they were close.
Thanks Dr Kat 👌💜
Great video, as always! Oddly enough, I was just looking this up yesterday! I'm so glad you decided to cover this subject. You are ever thorough and fascinating! Great job.
I’m largely in agreement with Anna Lisette. I think the bedrock of the Kensington System was keeping the princess safe, well, and unharmed, so that she could get to the throne. Alexandrina Victoria was in essence a business proposition for her mother and Conroy: her well-being was supposed to guarantee their success and wealth. I’ve never gotten much sense that the Duchess of Kent *loved* her daughter in any way we’d recognize.
This is what I love so much about your channel, your presentation is always so thought-provoking. I have also always been very uncomfortable about the Kensington System, it really makes me feel sick. I can, however, understand many of the likely motivations behind it, some of which are not outrageous. In a time of so much childhood mortality, and in an environment that had two extremes of 'moral depravity' and extreme conservatism, as well as a significant dearth of legitimate heirs, I can understand why the Dowager Duchess and Conroy would want to protect and nurture the future Queen in a way that was most likely to keep her alive and sustain their worldview. Even if they understood that such a closeted and strict upbringing would be somewhat detrimental to her as a person, the stakes would likely have been considered too high and the future of an entire empire worth safeguarding.
You say it every time, and it finally happened to me. TH-cam mysteriously unsubscribed me. I’ve been wondering why I haven’t been notified about new videos from the channel…
Mothers are often criticized by daughters, sometimes deservedly & sometimes not. On the occasions when I have rightfully needed to apologize to my daughter, I followed it up with “luckily you will now never make this particular mistake, but don’t worry, you will make completely different ones.”
As always, I very much enjoy your content.
I can only speak for my own lived experiences but they do lend some perspective on this topic. As someone who unfortunately had an unhappy childhood and has been in therapy for close to a decade due to its influences on relationships in my adult life. I do empathize with Victoria's raising in the Kensington system.
Through my own work on myself, I have been better able to understand my parent's reasons, all be it wholly traumatic at the time. Their techniques were considered traditional child rearing, but are known to be abusive and neglectful in modern child psychology.
I had stopped most contact with my parents for close to 5 years after moving out. So the period that Victoria keeps from her mother for 3 years sounds like a possible response to trauma. Victoria also as a young adult is trying to determine who she is as a person. Many young adults may be more distant from their families while they go through this period of self-actualization. My nephew in his 20s is going through this with my sister at the moment but you have to let the young person work through it and be there for support if needed. It makes sense after their marriage, Letson was sent away not that the Queen was not in need of a governess. They have to make their decisions as a couple without unnecessary input from others.
Victoria's marriage to Albert and consequently the decades of child-rearing of their many children definitely were influenced by how the Queen was raised in her childhood. The results can be seen in many letter correspondence from Victoria to her various children and their critical tone most of the time. I would describe her letters as manipulative, although the royal court very much works on this mindset most of the time, even modernly. So I try to keep the times in their context, as to what was acceptable.
I would say that Victoria's relationship with her mother changed over time, lending to her reaction to her mother's death. Relationships with family are a living thing that ebb and flow through one's life.
I felt guilt after my mother's passing from her second battle with cancer. Although I did a dutiful job as a daughter, I was present at all her chemo treatments. Despite the challenges, we were able to enjoy some moments together. The cycle comes full circle when you are cleaning up your parent after they took care of you when you were little. There is beauty in the cycle of life and I can look back on the experience and say I did my best work and have some great snuggles for it. Even if the past was harsh, there can be happiness depending on what you hold onto in your heart.
In conclusion, I wouldn't praise the Kensington System for the resulting successful reign of Queen Victoria. The results are still up for debate even this far out in time, depending on the source you are reading from regarding her state of mind and effectiveness as a Monarch. In my assessment, Victoria very much has a memorable reign in history that seemed effective for her times.
Nah. I've thought it over and I think it came from a want of power - Conroy wanting power over the throne, the to be Queen and her mum. It seems they used isolation and intimidation - and he wouldn't have tried to get the girl to sign the regency papers when she was ill if it hadn't been for selfish reasons. Whatever their desire, the emotional wellbeing of the little-girl wasn't one. They remind me of those massively repulsive family bloggers, which I know is a stretch but there you go - draining their child for every last bit of clout they can claw. Disgusting.
Thanks Dr. Kat. Really enjoyed this episode.
Am new to this but love your stories
Thank you for your great work. Greetings from Germany.
thanks, always interesting!
as usual, you find the most interesting perspectives! i've always been very much in the "Conroy was feathering his own nest" camp but, yeah, it is worth thinking about - if his objective was power, why did he treat Victoria in such a way that would in all likelihood (and as he would have to have realised) make her despise him. why not cultivate her so she'd be more likely to keep him close? and why, if he and her mother were so controlling, would they let her keep a governess who was teaching her to be independent and to stand up for herself? it is an interesting alternative to think about. (or....simply...he truly was a bastard who was gambling on William dying before she came of age so he could take control through her mother...) but if the study of history has taught us anything, its that these figures are rarely as simple as we want them to be. thanks for another illuminating video.
Often men like Conroy look down on women sufficiently that it wouldn’t have occurred to him that the governess was an issue. Further, what if the governess was wise to Conroy enough that she taught the Princess not to show her independent streak to Conroy? He might have had no warning that she was going to take a stand until he was pushing her to sign paperwork?
King William had been sick for some time and was in his mid sixties when he became king. So they had every reason to expect him to die earlier. Conroy attempted to isolate her further towards the end of Williams life by cutting her off from any supporters she had. He had a typical controlling abusive personality. He gaslit her regularly and claimed typhoid was just a whim she had to avoid the tours. He was a toxic man and I wholeheartedly agree with Queen Victoria's assessment of him. Chances are that he was hoping to more or less sequester her when she became 18 and never relinquish control like he was Richard III.
I absolutely adore your channel and content, Dr. Kat. Youcare a mentor to me s a history major. Much love ❤️ to you from the USA 🇺🇸
So interesting, thank you for this
Thank you
Fascinating.
I just watched you on the Lady Rotchford documentary!
Thank you for this video and for your excellent explanation from beginning to end. You eloquently achieved the goal you set for yourself regarding the subject matter ❤
I would love to dig into all of the psychological consequences of the child Victoria being infantilized. I am almost 64 years old and I still have to work on my own issues, especially deep seated anger and guilt, that is the result of my being infantilized by my mother (and having an emotional absent Father.)
I wasn’t being raised to be a queen 👸🏼 or any type of royalty 😊.
But, it can happen for a number of other reasons.
Thank you again for your insight, Dr. Marchant.
P.S. Even if the Mother is very loving and adoring of the child, it is not normal and, as in my own case as well, anger and resentment will come out eventually just like with Queen Victoria
Hi love your show ❤ I just finished watching you on queen Victoria I think I had heard that after her mother died she was going threw her mums things came across all the sweet things of Victoria’s that she had kept also a diary that showed Victoria how much her mum loved her to be a lonely child it’s wrong but like we say in history it’s what they did in those days
Love your content and commentary. Subscribing now!
Brilliant as always Dr Kat. Thank you for sharing
My mum always said that if she’d screwed up that badly, she’d pay for therapy.
Thanks for a great video.😁
Hope you are doing well Doctor Kat!! Love your videos. Thank you so much.
🙏Thanks Dr Kat! Just curious... yes, Queen Victoria's childhood/parental units were horrible, so then why didn't she use that experience and do better by her own children? both she and Albert had a very dysfunctional "child rearing system" of their own ?🤔
Not even responds to abuse by “doing better”. Even when you know you didn’t like it, it’s difficult not to repeat the abuse you experienced in your formative years - it’s all you know. This isn’t unique to royals
I think it was somewhat because she didn't know how to do better and somewhat because she didn't care enough about them to do better. Or maybe she thought she was doing the right thing because she wasn't sitting on top of them constantly like she had growing up but she went to the other extreme and she didn't include the love her kids needed. It's sad.
Who knows if she had been different then maybe her children would have parented differently and if that happened... maybe her eldest daughter Victoria might have raised her son better and we wouldn't have had WW1? Always interesting to think about the wars that have happened with her children, grandchildren or great grandchildren as the royals of the lands involved. 🤯
I try to keep in mind that Victorians believed that human children and their personalities were 100% malleable, like clay. On the other hand, I think 9 children would debunk that theory.
I liked this more than usual. Thank you.
I too keep a diary and I hope that perhaps some day ( maybe afer 500 ) years later historians might use my diary as reference to the history!!!! If it does happens they would definitely think that in our times the worst thing is schools and maths 😁😅
I used to keep a journal and I had the fantasy that one day it might be regarded in much the same way that modern readers view the diary, or pillowbook, of Sei Shonagon. Alas, I lack her wit and discerning eye. But, who knows what future readers might want to read? I wish you good fortune with you epistilogical endeavor!
I applaud you for trying to argue both sides on this topic (and the others you bring to us). But, like you, I think the Kensington System must have been horrible. I don't know how growing up in that much isolation and with that much control over EVERYTHING (i.e., sleeping in the same room as her mother and being made to hold someone's hand if she descended the stairs!) must have been quite oppressive, especially once she became a teen and would naturally been craving more independence. Maybe it toughened her up, though, because she did push Conroy and her mother aside as soon as she could!
What a dreadful and dreary childhood she had! My own experience, as well as those of friends, leads me to conclude that royal or no, mothers and daughters in western society often have complicated relationships. My mother really wanted me to become her "mini-me," and when I decidedly did not, she called me rebellious (don't get me wrong; we got on very well for the most part and I miss her). I find myself cheering for the young Queen as she pushes her controlling keepers away and pretty much does her adulthood the way she wants to (within reason).
Interesting, thanks.
Thank you! This was quite informative. 🤗