I still think there can be some danger in completely changing the workflow of (neo)vim with some of the neovim plugins like telescope. It resulted in me never using built in commands that can provide similar functionality with quick fix and location lists. I work on air gapped systems often where I physically had to retype my vimrc into the system. I can do that with a relatively short vimrc not 1000s of lines of plugins.
Can you not just print out your vimrc for those situations and simply use neovim in all other cases? If that case is your everyday and 99% of your use of vim, then it's obvious, of course just do what you need to do. For most of us that simply isn't relevant though.
@@TwilightTrekker1 Maybe my original message isn't clearly written, but that is effectively what I do. I use neovim and love it. I just try not to get to dependent on custom bits that I cannot get in vanilla vim so I can be dangerous on remote/airgapped systems :)
How does anyone in software, devops, networking, etc, etc get away with NOT using a terminal??? Seriously how are they getting anything done? I can't even comprehend how that's possible!
I'm 23 years old and I've only been working at my first programming job for roughly 5 months. I use neovim every day and I like the shiny things but I love watching your stuff and being able to go learn about these things that have existed for decades and end up saving me and my boss hours of work. Even if I don't find everything you show useful, it's always super interesting learning about it
Similar story here! I'm 22 and just started my first job about 3 months ago. I use vi daily, and I've gotten pretty fast with it. One of the senior devs recently said, ‘I have no idea how someone manage to use Vim ,’ and I couldn't help but think, ‘broo you’ve never seen anyone using Neovim, you haven’t seen anything yet!’ 😄
This is my first time watching anything you've streamed or shared. I knew nothing about what you wrote or who you were before this video was recommended by TH-cam. In the first 8 minutes, you've shown that you're able to honestly self reflect and admit to your mistakes and how your words in context of the changed norms of the times were received even more harshly and intensely than your intent. These are the behaviors of someone who is learning, growing, and improving continually through their life. I came in for critique about neovim and to learn about possible new workflows, features, techniques, and plugins. I'm staying for the positive example self improvement beyond using a text editor more effectively.
I switched over to neovim after switching my os from windows to linux and ran into a lot of issues with vs code but I didn't even learn vim before hand so everything I do in nvim is very clunky, I want to learn vim but I also don't really have a bunch of time to do that right now so at some point in the future (hopefully after I finish my thesis) but I did learn some "new" vim features that are really useful so far. this video only adds to that want to learn! I kind of wish I did this a few years ago but there is no time like today to learn more stuff!
As many others, if not for the YT randomly showing you in my feed I wouldn't even know about this channel. I appreciate the self reflection! You just won a subscriber.
I've used vim for over a decade. I've written hundreds of thousands of vim-script lines. I now also use neovim. I tried it early in its conception and found a few seg faults and what-not, but I didn't start using it until a couple of years ago. It is mature, and lua is annoying for config because it is verbose and simplistic, but it is fast; and it is worth it (to me) to use neovim for that. Additionally, tree-sitter replaces many annoying things (for a basic example, using :syntax include on a syn-region) and the nested syn-match/syn-region stuff ... it's nice to have a proper tool dedicated to that. And neovim pushed vim to be better and modernize (eg async). I also use emacs and ex and vi -and- dash and bash and zsh and fish -and- rg and grep and millions (hyperbolic-ly) of "conflicting" tools. Idk. Tools are tools. I learn them. I use them. *shrug*
Vscode works for most things I need it to do. You got everything in there, including a terminal for boomers. I like to minimize the amount of stuff I need to learn, and have that be maximally effective. That's why I would never choose dvorak layout, why I like cheap ass standard keyboards, and why I would not pollute my mind with quirky vim keystrokes. I need that space for blender already.
Honestly, just don't criticize what other people use and especially, don't call anyone NOOB. We don't really need to defend what we use, simply tell them 'I use this because I like it'.
1:04:45 I would change this to: DON'T STOP learning foundational vim and general command line skills, in favor of ONLY focusing on learning neovim specific things. I don't think it's helpful or practical to think you need to understand everything about vim before picking up neovim. You've laid out the case well that these skills are equally useful as a neovim user.
@rwxrob I don't think it's a tragedy (I guess that's what your "tragety" means?) because Nano is very easy to use, you can know how to use it right after opening it for the first time, unlike (Neo)Vim which you have to take a 30-min ~ 1-hour tutor first. Nano is not as feature-rich as (Neo)Vim (and it never aims to be), but it's minimalist, easy to use, and especially support syntax highlighting out of the box (no additional config), which makes it very suitable as a TUI editor for everyone to edit config files. And Nano won't make people stuck in Nano without knowing how to exit it lol. Of course for someone fluent in Vi key-bindings, Nano is redundant.
You are absolutely right. That's what I do. There are tons of other streamers who might be easier to follow. Then again, I actually put content out when a lot of people full-time employed at my age do not. So, the content is messy, but it is real.
46:40 I also think that both vim and neovim could do error handling a bit better. For sure there are better ways than dumping dozens/hundreds of stacktrace lines in the user's face
Great Video .. Man i loved that bannerfish at the end which i guess it's a custom bash script or something can you please share it. Now i want that skill of writting something similar in bash script so bad
I hated Lennox when I first tried it because everything was done through the command line and I just couldn't understand why people would want to remember all that crap. Now I'm gaming primarily on Linux LOL and I hated them for the same reason. Why would everybody want to remember all these keybinds and now I them everything including on my web browser and it's my editor on Linux and windows.
They added the :smile command back but it's not smile... it's grumpy cat with a NOPE message. I believe it's a stupid in-joke from github issues or something? I dunno.
I'm just a passerby, but I wanted to ask you... how the hell do you walk with a pair big enough to be able to show your mistakes in such a way? And being able to change from such a viewpoint is extremely rare these days. Absolute respect, despite the fact you ramble like I do. lol I'll say this before I go: We may not necessarily need to hear it, but it can't hurt to be reminded, but surrounding ourselves with people who think differently than we do is one of the best ways to keep ourselves open to change and have our views challenged. In a similar vein, we must take care not to surround ourselves with too much negativity. Sometimes it's hard to see that something is a problem if you're used to seeing it all the time. Just now, in this moment, my faith in humanity has risen. I may have only stuck around for about 20 (edit: ok 30) minutes or so, but I left a like and this comment. Take care!
You probably already have a video on this, but I was wondering about your preferred way of bringing your vimrc to containers and/or servers you ssh into.
Sorry, didn't watch till the end, however, watched around 40-45 min, it's a long video. I'm speculating it's all due to miscommunication. Rob, sir, I guess, you take every comment seriously. Pls don't. there are some morons in every community who flex unnecessarily that their tool is The GOAT. We don't have to fall into that trap. I'm glad you tried Neovim and got on board. At the end, we all agree Vim is Absolutely Awesome!. Now, I don't know about your stand on Neovim, but for me it's same as Vim - Absolutely Awesome as well. Another very very important thing. Neovim IS NOT a replacement for Vim. Whoever says that is just creating a divide between the respective communities. It's just another Vim-based editor.
hi Rob, i learned a lot from this - thank you - i'm a linux useer for about 5 years but dont work in the tech industry but really want to get some kind of start in programming - im actually a baker by trade. Do you think its rediculos for me to want to learn rust when i have no programming experience or from your perspective where is a good place to start. I dont particularly want to work in the industry but i want to do open source development of some small apps for starters.
Hey I think you should not learn rust without programming concepts beforehand. If you want to learn but avoid beginners languages you should start with C, the root of all modern programming languages. Wanna build apps? JavaScript. Wanna automate your tasks? Python. Wanna learn programming? C.
@@northwanderer800 Yes, since C is 'simple'it is a very good starting point, in addition to that, it teaches you to "build things from ground up" which later down the road makes yoy grow a conscious appreciation for abstractions.
@@radikalZen For me, it's the equivalent to "I just want a notepad". I open MacVim and write some notes. Also, MacVim supports macOS cua shortcuts like command-C or command-V. Faster than quote plus y (especially because quote and plus require shift on my keyboard).
Yep. That's a longer explanation. People I mentor call me morons. It is the Linus school of "healthy" behavior. It is wrong, but that is how I was raised in tech.
You can't understand everything. Vim is vast. Learn motions and basics, be open minded, know that sometimes maybe there's a simple way out simply remember something is possible to be willing to look it up. Challenge yourself. I started some years ago with astronvim that got my into basic motions and stuff. Loved leader driven custom mappings and carried it with me till today. Didn't like the fluff and bloat, went through some iterations and landed in custom config that conditionally leads different stuff in neovim, some basic qol mappings when vim and other stuff when i run neovim embedded in vscode (have to for school). Couldn't do it if I landed in a comfy distro and relied on plugins, never got curious to expand knowledge and just coasted along preaching dogma. Everything is fine. Software is there to serve us. Be open minded enough to go beyond basics.
I feel like the comment there saying its shit and you f'ing hate it. Might have something to do with how angry the responses you got are. If you had said it another way. I imagine at the very least the number of people angry with what you said would be lower. I don't think people actually getting mad over this is the right move. But, its at least its easy to understand how inflammatory comments will causes an inflammatory response. Especially when this is something people are very passionate about.
@@rwxrob that's juist how things go online some times. In the end, being able to step back and ask yourself if being right is worth your happiness . Also remembering what you put out into the world, is what you will get back. Those are two things I tell myself pretty often, and particularly interacting on the Internet they're pretty important to remember. If you let yourself get sucked into it enough, it will steal a lot of peace of mind.
I remember now why I don't use neovim... it's not that the current plugins break the current debian packages, it's that in a few years some plugin upgrade will break the install I'd make today. I'm not going to recompile my editor from source every few years.
I sit to the side and laugh at all the tribalism and nonsense the human animal does and says. Use whatever you want. Why care what anyone says? To me there is next to no practical difference between neovim and vim. The only reason I use neovim is because people prefer coding in lua than vimscript, so we get a ton of cool plugins. And no, I don't need them, but they make things nicer. But then again I am just a hobbyist and don't do anything complicated.
Neovim is a fork, friendly or not, of Vim and it is a fork that solved problems for a huge number of former vim users and never-were-ever vim users. 1/3 into this video and you've just said "please stayed tuned" but this first 1/3 isn't so much an "I was wrong" statement as you doubling down in some areas. I know nothing of the politics of the fork and how they treated Bram at the start or at the finish. Lots of systems only start out with `vi`, btw, which erases one of your persistent arguments. Heresy moment: I prefer Helix these days after three plus decades of vi/vim/nvim.
I still think there can be some danger in completely changing the workflow of (neo)vim with some of the neovim plugins like telescope. It resulted in me never using built in commands that can provide similar functionality with quick fix and location lists.
I work on air gapped systems often where I physically had to retype my vimrc into the system. I can do that with a relatively short vimrc not 1000s of lines of plugins.
Can you not just print out your vimrc for those situations and simply use neovim in all other cases? If that case is your everyday and 99% of your use of vim, then it's obvious, of course just do what you need to do. For most of us that simply isn't relevant though.
@@TwilightTrekker1 Maybe my original message isn't clearly written, but that is effectively what I do. I use neovim and love it. I just try not to get to dependent on custom bits that I cannot get in vanilla vim so I can be dangerous on remote/airgapped systems :)
This is such an important comment. I hope everyone who is just starting out reads it.
Why not use xdotool to type it for you?
How does anyone in software, devops, networking, etc, etc get away with NOT using a terminal??? Seriously how are they getting anything done? I can't even comprehend how that's possible!
I'm 23 years old and I've only been working at my first programming job for roughly 5 months. I use neovim every day and I like the shiny things but I love watching your stuff and being able to go learn about these things that have existed for decades and end up saving me and my boss hours of work. Even if I don't find everything you show useful, it's always super interesting learning about it
Similar story here! I'm 22 and just started my first job about 3 months ago. I use vi daily, and I've gotten pretty fast with it. One of the senior devs recently said, ‘I have no idea how someone manage to use Vim ,’ and I couldn't help but think, ‘broo you’ve never seen anyone using Neovim, you haven’t seen anything yet!’ 😄
It might be a 10, 15 minute video ☠️
I don't think I've ever actually come in under my time estimate at the beginning, like ever. I should just stop making bad promises.
No, don't delete the video! It was such an honest rant!! Even if it was wrong, it was great to see the passion!
This is my first time watching anything you've streamed or shared. I knew nothing about what you wrote or who you were before this video was recommended by TH-cam. In the first 8 minutes, you've shown that you're able to honestly self reflect and admit to your mistakes and how your words in context of the changed norms of the times were received even more harshly and intensely than your intent. These are the behaviors of someone who is learning, growing, and improving continually through their life.
I came in for critique about neovim and to learn about possible new workflows, features, techniques, and plugins. I'm staying for the positive example self improvement beyond using a text editor more effectively.
Wow. Thank you.
I switched over to neovim after switching my os from windows to linux and ran into a lot of issues with vs code but I didn't even learn vim before hand so everything I do in nvim is very clunky, I want to learn vim but I also don't really have a bunch of time to do that right now so at some point in the future (hopefully after I finish my thesis) but I did learn some "new" vim features that are really useful so far. this video only adds to that want to learn! I kind of wish I did this a few years ago but there is no time like today to learn more stuff!
As many others, if not for the YT randomly showing you in my feed I wouldn't even know about this channel. I appreciate the self reflection! You just won a subscriber.
Youre the best Rob! really exiting watching your content! And i am glad you are always improving! cheers from norway!
I've used vim for over a decade. I've written hundreds of thousands of vim-script lines. I now also use neovim. I tried it early in its conception and found a few seg faults and what-not, but I didn't start using it until a couple of years ago. It is mature, and lua is annoying for config because it is verbose and simplistic, but it is fast; and it is worth it (to me) to use neovim for that. Additionally, tree-sitter replaces many annoying things (for a basic example, using :syntax include on a syn-region) and the nested syn-match/syn-region stuff ... it's nice to have a proper tool dedicated to that. And neovim pushed vim to be better and modernize (eg async). I also use emacs and ex and vi -and- dash and bash and zsh and fish -and- rg and grep and millions (hyperbolic-ly) of "conflicting" tools. Idk. Tools are tools. I learn them. I use them. *shrug*
The world is ending, But glad your not stuck in your ways :)
Vscode works for most things I need it to do. You got everything in there, including a terminal for boomers. I like to minimize the amount of stuff I need to learn, and have that be maximally effective. That's why I would never choose dvorak layout, why I like cheap ass standard keyboards, and why I would not pollute my mind with quirky vim keystrokes. I need that space for blender already.
Honestly, just don't criticize what other people use and especially, don't call anyone NOOB. We don't really need to defend what we use, simply tell them 'I use this because I like it'.
Another comment from someone who didn't watch the video, obviously.
@@rwxrob Another response from an angry and salty content creator, obviously.
1:04:45
I would change this to: DON'T STOP learning foundational vim and general command line skills, in favor of ONLY focusing on learning neovim specific things.
I don't think it's helpful or practical to think you need to understand everything about vim before picking up neovim. You've laid out the case well that these skills are equally useful as a neovim user.
50:55 The standard editor in my Ubuntu is actually "nano", Vim is not preinstalled here
Yeah, that's a tragety, but point well taken. I have restorted to installing nvim instead of vim since I have to install something anyway.
@rwxrob I don't think it's a tragedy (I guess that's what your "tragety" means?) because Nano is very easy to use, you can know how to use it right after opening it for the first time, unlike (Neo)Vim which you have to take a 30-min ~ 1-hour tutor first. Nano is not as feature-rich as (Neo)Vim (and it never aims to be), but it's minimalist, easy to use, and especially support syntax highlighting out of the box (no additional config), which makes it very suitable as a TUI editor for everyone to edit config files. And Nano won't make people stuck in Nano without knowing how to exit it lol.
Of course for someone fluent in Vi key-bindings, Nano is redundant.
'First to twitch golang.' OG 👑🎱
Good apology Brother. I appreciate your work.
This stream of consciousness rant is really hard to follow. Diatribe after diatribe.
Rob's right, though.
You are absolutely right. That's what I do. There are tons of other streamers who might be easier to follow. Then again, I actually put content out when a lot of people full-time employed at my age do not. So, the content is messy, but it is real.
Goat!
46:40 I also think that both vim and neovim could do error handling a bit better. For sure there are better ways than dumping dozens/hundreds of stacktrace lines in the user's face
Great Video .. Man i loved that bannerfish at the end which i guess it's a custom bash script or something can you please share it. Now i want that skill of writting something similar in bash script so bad
It's a customized version of asciiaquarium (an ancient perl script) in my rwxrob/dot under scripts/fishies
I hated Lennox when I first tried it because everything was done through the command line and I just couldn't understand why people would want to remember all that crap. Now I'm gaming primarily on Linux LOL and I hated them for the same reason. Why would everybody want to remember all these keybinds and now I them everything including on my web browser and it's my editor on Linux and windows.
Big hugs from neovim cult
They added the :smile command back but it's not smile... it's grumpy cat with a NOPE message. I believe it's a stupid in-joke from github issues or something? I dunno.
Could never see it on my 72 column terminal. So yeah.
I'm just a passerby, but I wanted to ask you... how the hell do you walk with a pair big enough to be able to show your mistakes in such a way? And being able to change from such a viewpoint is extremely rare these days. Absolute respect, despite the fact you ramble like I do. lol
I'll say this before I go: We may not necessarily need to hear it, but it can't hurt to be reminded, but surrounding ourselves with people who think differently than we do is one of the best ways to keep ourselves open to change and have our views challenged. In a similar vein, we must take care not to surround ourselves with too much negativity. Sometimes it's hard to see that something is a problem if you're used to seeing it all the time.
Just now, in this moment, my faith in humanity has risen. I may have only stuck around for about 20 (edit: ok 30) minutes or so, but I left a like and this comment. Take care!
OMG yes. Live streaming and listening to people who disagree with me (even if they aren't nice) has been a huge help to my own personal growth.
Thank you for calling out the correct pronunciation of vi
I never knew that I was a 26 year old boomer xD
You probably already have a video on this, but I was wondering about your preferred way of bringing your vimrc to containers and/or servers you ssh into.
Used to have a workspace container. Now I'm bundling that stuff into a "homekit" monolith compiled Bonzai binary.
Big enough to have the balls to admit when you're wrong and apologize. That's what makes someone genuine, rock on 🤘
Sorry, didn't watch till the end, however, watched around 40-45 min, it's a long video. I'm speculating it's all due to miscommunication.
Rob, sir, I guess, you take every comment seriously. Pls don't. there are some morons in every community who flex unnecessarily that their tool is The GOAT. We don't have to fall into that trap. I'm glad you tried Neovim and got on board.
At the end, we all agree Vim is Absolutely Awesome!. Now, I don't know about your stand on Neovim, but for me it's same as Vim - Absolutely Awesome as well. Another very very important thing. Neovim IS NOT a replacement for Vim. Whoever says that is just creating a divide between the respective communities. It's just another Vim-based editor.
hi Rob, i learned a lot from this - thank you - i'm a linux useer for about 5 years but dont work in the tech industry but really want to get some kind of start in programming - im actually a baker by trade. Do you think its rediculos for me to want to learn rust when i have no programming experience or from your perspective where is a good place to start. I dont particularly want to work in the industry but i want to do open source development of some small apps for starters.
Hey I think you should not learn rust without programming concepts beforehand. If you want to learn but avoid beginners languages you should start with C, the root of all modern programming languages. Wanna build apps? JavaScript.
Wanna automate your tasks? Python.
Wanna learn programming? C.
@@AlexGarcia-ir7fl cheers much appreciated
@@northwanderer800
Yes, since C is 'simple'it is a very good starting point, in addition to that, it teaches you to "build things from ground up" which later down the road makes yoy grow a conscious appreciation for abstractions.
@@arkeynserhayn8370thanks for that - def gives me a good place to start 😅
I respect you
what is the name of the screen key plugin he is using can't find it
windar winbar vimbar ?
winbar but also in my dot files
Wow, the world changes. Rob with NeoVim and Zsh.
Sad there is no replacement for MacVim yet.
What do you mean? MacVim is still active. Do you mean you wish a MacVim GUI with a Neovim core?
@@douglaskayama I mean that there is no equivalent to MacVim in the Neovim world.
Wait, I didn't even know there is macvim on mac. I use neovim on mac avidly.
Can I ask question, why you using macvim? any particular reason?
@@radikalZen For me, it's the equivalent to "I just want a notepad". I open MacVim and write some notes. Also, MacVim supports macOS cua shortcuts like command-C or command-V. Faster than quote plus y (especially because quote and plus require shift on my keyboard).
@@attentioncestpaslegal7847 My other answer disappeared. If you're looking for a MacVim alternative using Neovim, search for VimR.
You called them morons as well so i don't know what you're on about but you've said and done all of those as well
Yep. That's a longer explanation. People I mentor call me morons. It is the Linus school of "healthy" behavior. It is wrong, but that is how I was raised in tech.
What colorscheme is that?
gruvbox-material
You can use gx to open a link instead of using your mouse :)
OMFG! I love you!
Neovim has segfaulted on me too many times. Also, what color scheme is that?
Gruvbox
@@daylordd0752 Ah, no wonder I loved it!
10:11 edxnull didn't get it...
You can't understand everything. Vim is vast. Learn motions and basics, be open minded, know that sometimes maybe there's a simple way out simply remember something is possible to be willing to look it up. Challenge yourself. I started some years ago with astronvim that got my into basic motions and stuff. Loved leader driven custom mappings and carried it with me till today. Didn't like the fluff and bloat, went through some iterations and landed in custom config that conditionally leads different stuff in neovim, some basic qol mappings when vim and other stuff when i run neovim embedded in vscode (have to for school). Couldn't do it if I landed in a comfy distro and relied on plugins, never got curious to expand knowledge and just coasted along preaching dogma. Everything is fine. Software is there to serve us. Be open minded enough to go beyond basics.
theme repo?
github.com/rwxrob/dot
I feel like the comment there saying its shit and you f'ing hate it. Might have something to do with how angry the responses you got are.
If you had said it another way. I imagine at the very least the number of people angry with what you said would be lower.
I don't think people actually getting mad over this is the right move. But, its at least its easy to understand how inflammatory comments will causes an inflammatory response. Especially when this is something people are very passionate about.
This might be true, but what I remember was starting out with a healthy "I'm not using it, here's why" and then degenerating into defensive stuff.
@@rwxrob that's juist how things go online some times. In the end, being able to step back and ask yourself if being right is worth your happiness . Also remembering what you put out into the world, is what you will get back.
Those are two things I tell myself pretty often, and particularly interacting on the Internet they're pretty important to remember. If you let yourself get sucked into it enough, it will steal a lot of peace of mind.
What should someone do to get support, is it really make a video that get's enough views to be viewed by someone who knows?
I remember now why I don't use neovim... it's not that the current plugins break the current debian packages, it's that in a few years some plugin upgrade will break the install I'd make today. I'm not going to recompile my editor from source every few years.
I sit to the side and laugh at all the tribalism and nonsense the human animal does and says.
Use whatever you want. Why care what anyone says? To me there is next to no practical difference between neovim and vim. The only reason I use neovim is because people prefer coding in lua than vimscript, so we get a ton of cool plugins. And no, I don't need them, but they make things nicer. But then again I am just a hobbyist and don't do anything complicated.
This is someone who didn't watch the first 10 minutes of the video. I explain all that.
Neovim is a fork, friendly or not, of Vim and it is a fork that solved problems for a huge number of former vim users and never-were-ever vim users. 1/3 into this video and you've just said "please stayed tuned" but this first 1/3 isn't so much an "I was wrong" statement as you doubling down in some areas.
I know nothing of the politics of the fork and how they treated Bram at the start or at the finish.
Lots of systems only start out with `vi`, btw, which erases one of your persistent arguments.
Heresy moment: I prefer Helix these days after three plus decades of vi/vim/nvim.
now do a "I was wrong" with Rust
Nope. I was 1000% correct about Rust and before all the Rust haters trending on TH-cam right now.
@@rwxrob Have you considered learning the language before using it?
this will be useful , thanks