51:25 I think maybe Morph forgot the 3.18 problems that were only revealed at LIVE scale. Hell, there were 3.24 Live revelations just from players behaving differently in Live than in PTU. PTU doesn't match Live in terms of scale or behaviors, even with the new Wave system, so actually the sooner 4.0 hits Live, the sooner THOSE kinds of problems can be recognized and addressed, hopefully more gracefully than with 3.18.
Awesome Vid! I really love these discussions where they get down no the nitty gritty. I could have watched for another hour. I hope to see more just like this.
People are VASTLY overestimating the number of people who have nothing better to do than to sit in a ship waiting 40 min for something to happen just to run over and beam repair some components. MOST people DO want to be Han Solo and Malcom Raynolds. The captain of their own ship. Multi crew is like raiding, except you won't have anything to do for the majority of the time. It takes time and is stressful and someone won't show up on time. SOME people like to be ship crew SOME of the time, but if CIG is betting on balancing the universe around only 10 % of people being able to captain their ship this game will be dead within a few months.
I think most people will use 1-2 person ships, from fighters to medium sized ships like Cutty or C1. Those will still be manageable. In fact I think that outside of combat most ships will be able to run on a very small crew. It's in combat where you need more roles to be filled. Thinking about Han and Chewie in a freighter...
Yes. Every role on a multicrew ship has to be somewhat engaging and have some sort of fun attached to it. No one wants to be the "radar guy" and just watch a blank screen for 2 hours and maybe there's a blip on it after 1.5 hours.
I think the most common will be two player crews. You have someone that can still fly the ship while another goes and fixes the systems or uses the guns. And you go and mess around together. But you’re in something like a Connie where you can have more people or NPC crew when that’s a thing. But you would be surprised how many people will do the boring jumps during a big org event. It just won’t be a consistent thing.
SalteMike isn't really welcome anymore thanks Tomato's wife. He reacted to Tomatos videos to purely share his perspective on spesific topics mentioned in spesific videos. Mike pulled in more viewer numbers by reacting to already made content while the owner of the content earned less views. And the wife weren't having any of that. The way she handled the situation was overall poorly and aggressive.
No reason to bump up drama. I'd be surprised if Mike never hung out with tomato again over something like that. The Tomatoes have absolutely busted their asses on content, but SC has been dragging in engagement and also TH-cam has been getting worse to succeed in. I have to manually watch space tomato content even though I'm subbed because searching for SC content often doesn't show him in the results. Then someone just plays your video and nods along (I'm exaggerating for drama) and gets twice as many views. Of course you'll want to lash out. Controlling that type of reaction is a very necessary skill to have for long term success in social media. Backlash is common, especially with comments like this trying to fan the flames.
I want to believe that 4.0 will launch in an acceptable state of playability, but I really feel Paul's statement that it is CiG's standard to release patches that are horrendously unstable. That's their standard and it's one that we've lived with for years. I just don't know how much the community can take it before apathy sets in and our excitement for the idea of this game atrophies. But then again we keep coming back like a true toxic relationship lol
Tomato thank you for curating this type of content snd conversation. Along with the work done at places like SOL Citizens and Captains Table, I enjoy the development of useful, smart space to agree and disagree with regard to this universe sim I and many others among us love. Last thing, i rarely perceive CIG as making promises. I almost always take their submissions as assertions of best intentions, even if they say them with conviction. But I get how people cling to ostensible expectations, hyped up. Its hard ro be built for the loooong term journey of playable testable alpha. I have a hundred other games to play while playing some SC pretty much daily, so I'm built for this. Gotta respect people who know that they just need to walk away and come back at, say, beta.
There are two problems with their marketing 1) over promising and under delivering instead of the opposite 2) putting out conflicting information. “Respawn is the plan” commercial to advertise the Ursa Medivac, which is pretty much the death bell to Death of a Spaceman. Then they come back and tell people in videos…after they made the purchase..that death of a spaceman is still going to be there.
@@thalstantrailwalker2393 The biggest part of DOASM has always been permadeath, so anyone who thought T3 respawn meant DOASM was dead probably didn't really understand DOASM to begin with.
Outstanding session, do this more often with this level of open opinion and honesty, and criticism, its fair comment and the CIG community need to hear it. CIG need to hear it and genuinely do something to fix it for once.
All my favorite content creators in one sitting. This is great. I loved listening to everyone's opinions on a game that we love. At the end of the day, I believe everyone want CIG to be successful and to become the game we have always wanted.
The way they go about development is quite backward.... dont hide issues from the community.... SHARE THEM. People love this game and want it to succeed. People will suggest things, it will improve progress and also manage expectations. Also as things begin to get resolved it will add momentum, it will build a bridge between the developers and the community so the community get excited about hurdles conquered. Have faith in your gamers CIG.... you will be fine!
Great podcast. 4.0 seems to be for SC success, and the morale of the community and its willingness to fund the project. 2 star system with good and stable content would be a huge victory for CIG.
It's funny how the terms alpha and beta are used. The original definitions are simple. Alpha state is when not all systems are in the game yet. Beta is all systems have been implemented into the engine. So server meshing not being in the game yet basically makes this an alpha and it seems it will be alpha for awhile longer due to the plans to add new systems. Beta will come when all these core systems are in the game but still need to fleshed out.
@13:00. That's called being close to the flag pole in the Army. The closer you are, the more regimented it gets. The further away (and smaller your echelon) you get, the more lax rules and discipline get.
I'm not sure if anyone actually pointed this out, but CIG kind of _did_ implement a "Powerwash Simulator" in SC. Playing salvage and casually scraping hull material off of wrecks is pretty much the same experience, and it's one of the most relaxing things I know of in the game.
Concord cost 200 million supposedly and took 8 years and it colsed after 2-3 weeks... i have some suspision that star citizen will receive similar treatement due to the hardcore direction Sc going for... an extremly tedious and complex where you risk a lot for not much and will have to redo the same boring things over and over and over... pretty sure SC wont be a success at release and might be dead on arrival because CIG decided to make their game tedious instead of fun... and focusses on boring moundain task when they should focus on the sci fi and more epic things in the verse... i dont want fire extinguisher gameplay in a space game.. i want to explore cool alien ruins.. see alien cities and interect with other races... i want to compete in epic races, i want to ho on a jouney to find an artefact that no one has found... i want to see alient style planets with very crazy giant plants something that dont look like an earth biome at all... i want to find some giant crystals formation in a distant asteroid bets.... not piling boxes in a shop for 1 hour, not going through 3 different inventory ui to get a gun equiped... not extinguishing fire in a ship made of metals.... i dont want to loose eveything i found during my journey because ive been ganked by a pirate org with elite fps player and dog fighter.... thats all things that will ultimately push away so many players that Sc wont be viable.
SC isn't for you then. Sounds like you want to play something like Mass Effect. Which is a really good game, but it's not SC. I love the idea of maybe having to put out a fire.
The connection that people haven't drawn yet-- but will in time-- is that the exact same toxic positivity leading to Concord's release and failure is happening with Master Modes and the Flight Model. Everywhere you go you see people like Space who want to act like being rude about this game over differing opinions on flight is somehow one of the worst atrocities you can commit; the CIG forums are even worse. You can't be critical of MM because all parties agree that the only victim is the "tryhard." "Tryharding" of course is the one thing this community is allowed and encouraged to be toxic about because it is a racist dog-whistle for "white male." If you need a demonstration just watch Space's video with Avenge; you've never seen a white man choose his words so carefully who wasn't being held at gunpoint.
Only a quarter way through the video, but following the conversation about the communication: I think they should use their roundup for that. So often, we get „there are no updates“, while there were dozens of small updates during the week. This is how I would want to be updated officially by CIG
When dynamic server meshing finally works and is stable, CIG could then easily make a shard for playing starcitizen alone or with an org, where NPCs hopefully will work too. It is plausible when dynamic server meshing works as intended. Create your own server so to speak through CIG.
I don’t foresee CIG doing this as servers are expensive and they would literally have to have 1 server per person to make this work in the off chance everyone decided to go to their own server. Dynamic Server meshing is intended to enable multiple people from multiple servers be connected into a single shard. When a server gets too much traffic, either by players or entities, a new server can spool up, connect to the same shard and split an area up so the server work load is distributed. A room full of multiple people could split off from a server that was processing data for the entire building at one point. So CIG will determine a viable server count that they can afford in their budget and will set it up so those servers are always running something. But say there is a corner of the universe that no players are currently located at. A server can then spool down, and then immediately connect to a location that needs the help. So in theory there would only be a handful of inactive servers as a sort of buffer and ready on standby when a location needs the help. Otherwise CIG is going to do the bare minimum, which in turn means that majority of the servers will constantly be running at all times. Remember the purpose of Dynamic Server Meshing is meant to make it cost effective for Server meshing. This is why it has never been done at this scale before. You start breaking a huge game up into multiple server sections, you would have servers that are not being used waste money. And if you shut that server down to save money, that data is then lost and is no longer persistent. So the meshing enables for long term persistence because that data is always transferred to a replication server that is always running. That way when an unused server is spooled down and then connects to a different location, if a player re-enters the area the old server was connected to, either that server can then be rebooted for that location or an entirely new server can take its place yet still have the same data it had before. Hence I put a coffee cup in the forest, that coffee cup location data is transferred in real time to the replication service, I can leave that area, that server spools down, I return to that area, a new server spools up to cover that location, it connects to the replication layer that handles that coffee cup’s location data, and then places that cup, in real time as that location is loading in as I enter it.
The marketing team has a schedule, and a set timeline on how they do things. The development team is on its own schedule and timeline. They are different teams doing different things. They overlap, but the marketing team is going to push marketing regardless of whether the dev team is ready for them to put the marketing material out or not.. I really want to put this out there so people may understand the marketing a bit more.
The best way CIG could grow SC is to just keep the PTU adding features and tweaks as they are ready and once they meet a PU readiness ship it across and start loading the next lot into the PTU. Rather than relying on big delayed patches. Constant iteration rather than slow drop feed.
1:04:00 as an outsider looking in with some game dev experience, 12 years and not having the CORE of the game finished is kinda insane, i do think it deserves some extra space do to the scope of the game but lets take the flight model and death for instance, those arent really scope dependent. flight model would be the same if you had 1 system, or 100 systems. now i suppose you could argue that other systems could have largely varying gravitys, like maybe 1 system just has way more massive and dense planets than another. that argument still doesnt convince me because its still gravity... every system has gravity. if anything that is a very fast minor patch to the flight model (Literally a slider value that would change). there shouldnt be any large changes to it 12 years in. and i dont think i need to explain why death isnt scope dependent. this game looks awesome and im excited for its future, in fact i just bought a game package. but man the dev team seems to be sooooo disorganized. from what ive been seeing from keeping up with it over the years and much more closely recently, i think we'd be lucky if 4.0 came out before the end of summer 2025 (im saying this right after SCCon 2024) love the pod! excited for the future of this game and the community.
For me, 3.24 'bricked' my account (and it's not just me: there's an Issue Council ticket with multiple contributors) and it's been like this for many days now; perhaps 3.24.1 will fix it, maybe. To engage with 3.24 live (not PTU) I resorted to creating a second account and bought a Starter Pack. Some will consider this somewhat extreme, I'm sure, but it's my choice - and it has allowed me to prove that a Cutter can transport 11 SCU and let you get into and out of the ship past the boxes, trying to look for a silver lining here...
19:35 for the next minute Paul identifies the reality of the situation, they are no matter what going to upset people with communication or lack there of. So if you are CIG, existing in this society, you pick the option that benefits you most, and that is: no comms. Their marketing can work off of that. The problem is social expectations, CIG is just playing the game like any other business
Good overall conversation as always. A lot of assumptions as expected but it’s the nature of SC due to CIGs limited communication on development. I think rightfully so, they’re the only studio building the game that no AAA studio would build, they have to figure out the best approach in this frontier. The only real say the community has is with their wallet. I do believe CIG will get it done, just many aren’t willing to wait.
I have been saying this for years! 2.0-3.0(Now 3.24.X) is what most game do fully behind cloesd doors Full Alpha test that most gamers NEVER see...... 5-10years of developing. .. ..4.0 Will be SC Open Bate (Early Access) that we see now a days for 1-2Years. So if you look at it that way.. SC is right on track or.. ahead of what is needed to make a game on this scale work.
I tried to come back and play after this patch. I upgraded the Mustang to the Avenger Titan. I was able to upgrade but now I cant retrieve the ship. Also I cant enter my small hanger. I have tried all the online tips to fix it and nothing works. My game is broken. Tough way to come back to the game.
Also, over the last two years, expecting a continued upward trajectory at the same pace year over year post pandemic simply isn't a reasonable expectation. CIG is making the same amount of money as last year, but there are nearly 400k new accounts over last year. So it isn't simply old backers, there are still tons of new people coming in and spending $. CIG isn't losing people, the interest in the project just isn't maintaining the exponential growth that it did during the pandemic but is still maintaining the same if not greater levels of funding. It's a flawed argument to say that it's old backers keeping funding going when we have had nearly 400k new accounts created over last year but funding is on par with last year.
How could hundreds of devs get moved over from S42 and not make a huge splash? This has been a horrific year for SC and I think we need to start talking about CR’s leadership style.
At the end of the day, this has not been done before. If it was easy, every other developer would have done it by now. I fully believe once CIG is done adding the core tech, we will see a flood of features that will silence the skeptical. And by the way, in the time it has taken them to get to this point, no other company has come forward to claim their title within the last ten years, they've been trying to do it first. No matter what, Star Citizen will be the first to succeed or fail at what it's attempting to do. ❤
The silence around it (be it from CIG or the pro Star Citizen youtubers) says enough I think. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt (again) and see what comes out of it.
hoping it's addressed at CitCon. Aint no way SC backer resources are going to another game when we're in this state. That'd be final straw for me... but taking a big hit of copium, perhaps it's the new official name for the Quantum NPC system, idk.
51:15 No, that categorically is not correct. They've specifically said the opposite. PES was far and away more complicated. It was introduced using the "big bang approach," as Benoit put it. They aren't doing that with Server Meshing, they've done exactly what they said they would post PES to implement the supporting technologies to allow for Server Meshing. It's why 3.23 took longer with Replication Layer Separation, it's why 3.24 took longer with refactors to Transit etc. Hence why the expectation that Morph is presenting is fundamentally flawed, because the information that he's using as a basis for it is incorrect.
What irks me most about marketing is, that they seem to not make their ads dependent of the actual status of a patch or a feature. There really should be some kind of last check before going online with an ad - I have a lot of experience with online marketing, and there normally is ALWAYS a last "go" before an ad goes on. And if a patch is really buggy, you should hold back any ad that advertises features that don't work right now - because if people click on the ad and buy the game BECAUSE of certain features, and that features don't work yet, they could get the impression of false marketing. Not that I think CIG does this on purpose, it is really a matter of being "tone-deaf", like you guys said. They need to add a last "stop/go gateway test", dependent on the features working or not before going out with an ad. Otherwise, they should use more general ads instead, and hold the specialized ones back until they can advertise the features with good conscience, because they actually WORK as intended. AND - they really should change the tone of some of their ads. They use ads that imply a really fast paced, combat oriented, very action heavy gameplay - but this is not what Star citizen is, at least for the moment - it is much slower paced, with much management and simulation and realism, and the ads should represent this more and heavier instead of the fast paced combats they show in most ads. Especially, because it attracts the wrong target groups, IMHO. We need simulation players mainly, right? People who have the patience to prepare for a mission for 10 - 30 minutes, preparing their ships, tweaking and tuning their engines, equipping their characters, planning their missions and their routes, etc. - the ads don't show this part of the game AT ALL! They seem to imply a very fast, almost arcadelike gameplay - which Star citizen is not and doesn't try to be.
There's also the consideration to make that, inspite of all the caveats and small writing thrown around in places,...if someone were to be really REALLY pissed about this kind of marketing and felt mislead after the fact, they could probably, when living in the EU, find a lawyer that digs up the right legislations and then in a figurative sense go twist CIGs wrists a couple of times and screw them over because of it. I mean that's just a random thought put out there, I have in fact no idea of legislations or anything like that, but I do know that EU consumer protection is usually one of the best and rather strict, so I wonder how much leeway CIG has or by any chance is banking on unawareness or forbearance by backers not wanting to deal with that mentally/timely.
With what Sulyce said about them advertising it as a live service game and they don't have content: I dont want them to release everything they have now and have the wider community (and you know they will) be up in arms and complaining about there not being enough content because they burnt through it during the testing phase. If this happened on release of 1.0, itd kill the game player base wise because new people into the game are just hearing from the older alpha testers that theres "no content". Let them make the game and just trust they have the content there in the background ready for release.
The amount of diversity of opinions toward the end, that was amazing. Getting Sulyce into the mix was a good perspective to view from as well. Great Show!!!
I don't agree with the idea that the game isn't an alpha. They're definitely still working on underlying systems before working on content. Delivery missions were left as boring missions, but I think that's because they weren't mainly supposed to be entertainment. Delivery missions got players landing, quantum jumping, interacting with lots of doors and surfaces, in a variety of locations. From a testing perspective, they've done the job. I don't want more intricate delivery missions that slow down back end system dev. Have those people finish the SQ42 polish or design more mission types or something until the underlying systems are done. Then build on that stable and complete foundation
Great cast, but I find the current narrative consistently frustrating. The game was definitely overhyped at Citcon 2023, but there is this constant gaslighting of the community that we haven't had what was promised this year. No, Pyro is not out yet, and frankly, it needs to be out before the end of the year (and not just Evocati) so that we can finally move the hell on from Pyro being the focus. That said, 3.23 and 3.24 have massively shifted both the interface for the game (UI, MM) and how you interface with the game (physicalization, freight, cargo missions). I think we forget that 3.18 was just last year and we're light years beyond that now. A lot of the MM hate train has been trying to bring the entire community down about the state of the game, and we all seem to be falling for that anti-hype. No, we're not where we need to be yet, but the period of 3.20-3.24 has introduced so many changes to the game, especially in that drought leading up to 3.18 (do we remember that 2022 was basically a 1 nothing-burger patch year?), that it's like a completely different game. Now we just need the whole Pyro thing to happen and go away so we can stop hearing about it.
I had to dip out of this whining session at about minute 25, I honestly think this is more about expectation management than anything else. Morph wants to know sooner what happened? Here is what happened, as everyone should know by now: Shit broke and now they’re working on removing the blocker to continue with larger scale tests. That’s pretty easy to cobble together I think. Marketing should assume the game is broken and communicate that? Really? Come on guys, this is a bit silly. Plus, I am having way too much fun playing 3.24, which turned out to be a pretty damn sweet patch for many reasons. So yeah, I’ll tune in for the next one when the vibe is a bit more reasonable.
Nice to see all of the hosts putting themselves into CIGs shoes at some point and showing some empathy. Most people just rant without ever questioning themself "Could I have done it in a better way than CIG?".
Honestly I think Pyro is more more of a feature to those of us that are consistantly playing, I don't think many new/sideline backers care much about pyro. Enginering seems to be more of a bigger feature for them, at least anicdotally I know more people sitting by waiting for engineering then pyro
I imagine based on the almost universally panned features coming from SQ into the MMO, the c-suites should be shitting themselves. i see more giant rewrites in our future
Sorry late post, MM broke the Argo SRV, due to CSM mode being locked behind MM, this ship has become useless now that you can no longer tractor vehicle through quantum. As soon as you switch to NAV mode, the tractor beam disengages. Again there is this separation between design teams and communication failures between these teams and this is why Star Citizen is is so far apart from its original design and where it is now. because no 1 team knows what the end goal of this game is to be. Chris has his vision, but CIG don't seem to know what that is and are making it up as they go along. is there a path or are they just throwing ideas at walls and seeing what sticks.
I'm still pissed about the pay to play Pyro play test. I've spent hundreds of dollars on Star Citizen but I was excluded from the play test because I didn't buy their $35 pack of shit. I haven't spent a dime on the game since. I don't think I will ever forgive them for that. Then they changed the wave system so now I can't even test in the PTU so I quit.
I think a 1.0 release with less than a half dozen star systems will be more than enough. It's quality over quantity. If you have enough content nobody will care that you won't have 100 systems in the game
On the topic of the game has taken 12 years, we have to keep in mind that they’re making Sq42 as well. We have no idea how good/bad that game looks. If it looks good and releases next year, I’d say they’ve done well in 12 years
It's difficult doing dev out in the open because no one other than devs understands how dev is done. It's often done by going one step forward and several back because you have to rework older systems as you introduce new ones. This looks particularly bad to non-devs because it looks and appears that things get worse, when in reality the overall outcome is a net positive the surface level outlook appears negative. Marketing, is marketing. They have a separate goal entirely, and developers have no clue about any of that, they just talk about what they are working on. If devs are positive, and their outlook is positive that speaks WORLDS, let me tell you! As a dev for 20 years, if the devs are negative, and depressed, your project is in REALLY REALLY bad shape. But if they are positive, man, that speaks worlds at how well things are going because enthusiastic developers means the code is in really good shape, the tech is in really good shape, and the backend is very positive.
My only issue with alpha and beta is that in their letter to the chairman the release it states that 4.0 WILL be beta and than 1.0 is the live release. I also thought that a live release will be so lackluster with possibly only two systems released, like in all seriousness how long are we gonna have to wait for NIX and magma to to come in to the game another 5years each???? What happened to having a 100 systems at release when in reality it’ll probably just be two
Just not surprised anymore and absolutely have 0% trust in anything CIG says, so I just play, but have no expectations so when stuff comes at some point it’s fun, but wasn’t disappointed for months before getting it.
SQ42 is gatekeeping SC from many features and gameplay. Whereas it is because they want to keep those "secret" until SQ42 releases or/and because they have mainly focused on the development of SQ42 instead of SC. We shall see how the release of SQ42 impact the speed at which SC evolves.
I would hope they employ procedural generation. There’s no good logistical reason to handcraft each and single one of them. They can handcraft a small number of popular destinations like the cities we have now on Stanton, and leave the rest for procedural generation to fill in the void. Not all star systems need to have that amount of complexity either. There are plenty of systems out there not suited to sustain life in any capacity, and that’s fine for housing a couple space stations to support fuel stops or asteroid mining.
@@CodesmithEvanion locations are useless without gameplay, no mans sky got kicked in the head with that one. Yes gameplay needs locations and assets, but it doesn’t need 100 star systems or assets and they have nothing to do in them. It needs more devs that can code clearly, the ratio is / has been off for years with star citizen. Art assets and animation, while ignoring the fact that you can lightly touch a ship and it explodes.
@@Eagle6Airsoft they’ve mentioned years and years and years ago that they would implement procedural generation as a means to help, but they would need to polish the generated planets. Hope people realize why some players are a bit irate when we’ve had the same discussion for nearly a decade now.
@@Eagle6Airsoft my comment just stated a mathematical fact. Nms, elite.. never caught my interest purely due to the lack of crafted vistas, and instead heavily relying on procedural generated systems. But it’s a question of scale. And the plan was to have just over 100 systems. And if they release one system per month, it would take 8 years. But.. add to that all the artist work needed to craft a system to the quality that SC requires. There is no way they could average a pace of 1/month. So in reality, delivering all those systems would take a lot longer
My take is that it should start procedural, which will take the devs 80% of the way there and then craft the rest of the system by "hand" to ensure there's engaging and relevant content. Systems only need to come online as the player base grows. Not having enough players in any one system will bring us back to where we are now, regardless of the end goal, dynamic server meshing.
Maybe I'm just more tuned out of marketing messaging as a whole, but I just don't think its not that bad. Almost every company is in your face marketing their products and I just don't feel like SC is really that agressive comparatively
Marketing team of SC are bordering on malpractice. Have you been living under a rock? Look how they present the game to lure gullible people, and look at the literal shitshow of a tech demo we have.
Doesn't matter if it's marketed as "live", doesn't change what alpha and beta mean. The game is in alpha so long as it's in development and feature incomplete. Beta is polishing. When other games open the gates for people to try it doesn't change what the words mean. Star Citizen is in alpha, period.
I think that they are really afraid to release SQ42 because of it's state. A huge part of their "it will be fine" statement loops around server meshing and SQ42. If SQ42 comes out and it is a feature/performance disaster, it is basically over with this project. And like in the early 2000 where Chris abused the German tax loophole by receiving money to finance his hobbies and getting sued for unfinished and abondonned projects, he seem to not have learned from it. This Soulsinger drama seem to put the finger on new "behind the scene" shenanigans. And sorry, but if true and one day it is proven that RSI misled people for personal gain or used the money for other purposes, then people who knew this was all a scheme, decised to ignore it and misled players to buy in it on purpose to get a part of cake (be it money or clicks) should also be investigated and be part of incoming lawsuits, as they would be part of the pyramid scheme.
Im not ok with the statement that a game for everyone is ultimately a game for no one... Example GTA 5 The most sucessfull game. 1: you have a game for single player lover 2: you have online mode 3: you have pve and pvp 4: you have shooting but also other activities like racing, I think thats why rockstar games are so sucessfull, they manage to have a bit of everything and eveyr aspect tries to be well done. and also its a game that is easilly accessible for every gamer.. and i have to say its a good game overall.
My question for you is: If server meshing is not the jesus tech and wont really solve anything... what will lol if you get all the tech to create your game and the game still dont work .. what doest it mean?? whats can make the game work after that??
I heavily disagree that CIG's marketing is a problem. It brings in money, like it's supposed to so CIG doesn't go bankrupt. Players aren't obligated to buy into the marketing. Some do, I won't judge them for how they spend their money. It is what it is at the end of the day you only need to spend $45. The alternative is a far more predatory monetization system. We don't want that. I'd rather have them flashing ship commercials at me every ISC than the financing model of 80% of games on the market these days.
CIG is also creating their own drama. Especially by showing feature and never delivering them for years. Hacking for instance. And for Pyro, they decided to gate it behind server meshing wich was not mandatory. They could have created independent servers as a temporary measure. As a result they have not deliver any new planet since several years after having delivering one each year for a long time. Of course this create frustation from backers. And work for themn to maintain things that no one use.
time and time again it seems that there's some bad leadership decision makers in the marketing/communications/PR department that need to be changed -- either in strategy, culture or personel to become better and more accurate in their communication to new players. old backers are getting tapped dry. if they can nail down their communication to the public and more importantly new players while preventing the 5+ yr SC veterans from drowning potential new players in salt.
Last thing. All marketing, on earth, is predatory. If it has to be marketed, it is a want, and not a need, that is value-corporatized to move money from your wallet, and mine, into the pocket of the marketing enterprise. There is no marketing that is failing to prey upon you for that purpose. Broccoli? Zero marketing. Eggs? Zero marketing. I worry that people divide among marketing efforts and styles, either it clicks with you, for the fullest dimension of reasons, or it doesn't. It's gotta be okay that it doesn't, but i dont know why we would THEN tell CIG not to market or to disconnect marketing from its intents when it is clearly, unambiguously effective. The only way to change marketing of SC by CIG is for them to see it diminish in its effectiveness. Right? Or am i crazy? Lets differentiate our expectations of the marketing arm from broad backer communication, which CAN be seen as different, and under different rules of expectation.
Had forgotten is was quite so long ago but checked and indeed the UK Egg Marketing Board started a campaign to address a drop in egg consumption in 1956 that continued into the 1960s and had the "Go to work on an egg" slogan I remembered...
It feels like Morph is really hitting his breaking point lately. His takes have become more and more negative over the past year and he seems the most frustrated/upset out of everyone in this discussion. Obviously everyone is entitled to their own feelings and opinions but sad to see that change in him over the past 12-18 months. He used to be one of the best communicators for the game.
Too much emphasis is put on New and Exciting than is on making what is already in play being fine tuned to work properly as advertised. This is how they think they can bring in new players and sell ships to existing players and so increase profits. What is going to happen is they will loose existing customers because of performance problems and these customers will no longer make purchases or for that matter continue to play the game. The disgruntled players will then talk new players out of purchasing the game or existing ones from putting any more cash into new ships or other upgrades.
What I find crazy is that there are people who will follow the next Citizencon, You realize that it will deal with the same subject as Citizencon 2016, "4.0 traveling in several solar systems", without having been able to get one out
Nah i dont think it will be Pyro stuff. They keep talking about 4.0 in ISC before citcon already. Citcon will be SQ42, crafting, base building, new Star Systems, tiny bit of 4.0. (And you’re definitely gonna see all the citcon content who are you lying to)
@@TKanal3 yeah, and they were already talking about this citcon after the last one ended, my guess it a lot of sq42 with a possible release date, more showcase on crafting and basebuilding although I doubt it'll come into the game anytime soon and showing off Nyx since that system has apparently been worked on already by the team working on Pyro since Pyro was so delayed by server meshing
@@the_steamtrain1642 i think theyll show like 3 systems or so and well wait for the other two except nix for ages. But itll be hype. (alltho i dont think well ever wait as long for a system as for pyro again)
The guy has a point they are still talking about 2016 topics to this day at citizencons. The games ability to hype and yet complete inability to hit those expectations is shocking. They just don’t know how to do the things they talk about when they talk about them.
![ปฏิเสธไม่ไหว (Crush on you) - LIPTA feat. No One Else [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NBw1jF342vw/mqdefault.jpg)
Always good to come on these shows, thanks for having me!
Hi space dad
Ugg, I can't watch this video Paul commented on it. =P
51:25 I think maybe Morph forgot the 3.18 problems that were only revealed at LIVE scale. Hell, there were 3.24 Live revelations just from players behaving differently in Live than in PTU. PTU doesn't match Live in terms of scale or behaviors, even with the new Wave system, so actually the sooner 4.0 hits Live, the sooner THOSE kinds of problems can be recognized and addressed, hopefully more gracefully than with 3.18.
Agreed, live testing is the most valuable. Unfortunately.
I am sad Voidy didn't start with "Hello handsome viewers" :-P
Every microphone has a name...
"Every good podcast needs a name, and the name of this podcast is...."
20:37 this is a fantastic suggestion. I think we'd have a far healthier SC community if CIG handled communication this way.
Awesome Vid! I really love these discussions where they get down no the nitty gritty. I could have watched for another hour. I hope to see more just like this.
Wonderful cast this week. There was a lot of good communication in this episode. Thank you all for doing this.
People are VASTLY overestimating the number of people who have nothing better to do than to sit in a ship waiting 40 min for something to happen just to run over and beam repair some components. MOST people DO want to be Han Solo and Malcom Raynolds. The captain of their own ship. Multi crew is like raiding, except you won't have anything to do for the majority of the time. It takes time and is stressful and someone won't show up on time. SOME people like to be ship crew SOME of the time, but if CIG is betting on balancing the universe around only 10 % of people being able to captain their ship this game will be dead within a few months.
I think most people will use 1-2 person ships, from fighters to medium sized ships like Cutty or C1. Those will still be manageable.
In fact I think that outside of combat most ships will be able to run on a very small crew. It's in combat where you need more roles to be filled.
Thinking about Han and Chewie in a freighter...
@@FaireFionwe the YT1300 which the millenium falcon is a heavily modified version of is a ship designed for a 2 person crew
Yes. Every role on a multicrew ship has to be somewhat engaging and have some sort of fun attached to it. No one wants to be the "radar guy" and just watch a blank screen for 2 hours and maybe there's a blip on it after 1.5 hours.
I think the most common will be two player crews. You have someone that can still fly the ship while another goes and fixes the systems or uses the guns. And you go and mess around together. But you’re in something like a Connie where you can have more people or NPC crew when that’s a thing. But you would be surprised how many people will do the boring jumps during a big org event. It just won’t be a consistent thing.
Damn what a rooster! You were just missing Saltemike and Berks.
SalteMike isn't really welcome anymore thanks Tomato's wife. He reacted to Tomatos videos to purely share his perspective on spesific topics mentioned in spesific videos.
Mike pulled in more viewer numbers by reacting to already made content while the owner of the content earned less views. And the wife weren't having any of that.
The way she handled the situation was overall poorly and aggressive.
@@patrikadolfsson121 Ahh okay. Well people are adults. I am sure they can talk it out.
They won't, from what I recall Mike said he just won't react to that content anymore. Sad to see the bully win @@GRIZEH
No reason to bump up drama. I'd be surprised if Mike never hung out with tomato again over something like that.
The Tomatoes have absolutely busted their asses on content, but SC has been dragging in engagement and also TH-cam has been getting worse to succeed in. I have to manually watch space tomato content even though I'm subbed because searching for SC content often doesn't show him in the results.
Then someone just plays your video and nods along (I'm exaggerating for drama) and gets twice as many views. Of course you'll want to lash out.
Controlling that type of reaction is a very necessary skill to have for long term success in social media. Backlash is common, especially with comments like this trying to fan the flames.
I want to believe that 4.0 will launch in an acceptable state of playability, but I really feel Paul's statement that it is CiG's standard to release patches that are horrendously unstable. That's their standard and it's one that we've lived with for years.
I just don't know how much the community can take it before apathy sets in and our excitement for the idea of this game atrophies. But then again we keep coming back like a true toxic relationship lol
Tomato thank you for curating this type of content snd conversation. Along with the work done at places like SOL Citizens and Captains Table, I enjoy the development of useful, smart space to agree and disagree with regard to this universe sim I and many others among us love. Last thing, i rarely perceive CIG as making promises. I almost always take their submissions as assertions of best intentions, even if they say them with conviction. But I get how people cling to ostensible expectations, hyped up. Its hard ro be built for the loooong term journey of playable testable alpha. I have a hundred other games to play while playing some SC pretty much daily, so I'm built for this. Gotta respect people who know that they just need to walk away and come back at, say, beta.
Aint nobody coming back. Look around in the verse it's over.
There are two problems with their marketing
1) over promising and under delivering instead of the opposite
2) putting out conflicting information. “Respawn is the plan” commercial to advertise the Ursa Medivac, which is pretty much the death bell to Death of a Spaceman. Then they come back and tell people in videos…after they made the purchase..that death of a spaceman is still going to be there.
@@thalstantrailwalker2393 The biggest part of DOASM has always been permadeath, so anyone who thought T3 respawn meant DOASM was dead probably didn't really understand DOASM to begin with.
Probably this year will hype base building, meanwhile co-pilots still cant operate the chair (shields, power management etc..)
Outstanding session, do this more often with this level of open opinion and honesty, and criticism, its fair comment and the CIG community need to hear it. CIG need to hear it and genuinely do something to fix it for once.
Voidude based, confirmed.
All my favorite content creators in one sitting. This is great. I loved listening to everyone's opinions on a game that we love. At the end of the day, I believe everyone want CIG to be successful and to become the game we have always wanted.
The way they go about development is quite backward.... dont hide issues from the community.... SHARE THEM. People love this game and want it to succeed. People will suggest things, it will improve progress and also manage expectations. Also as things begin to get resolved it will add momentum, it will build a bridge between the developers and the community so the community get excited about hurdles conquered. Have faith in your gamers CIG.... you will be fine!
Great podcast. 4.0 seems to be for SC success, and the morale of the community and its willingness to fund the project. 2 star system with good and stable content would be a huge victory for CIG.
You guys made a lot of valid points. It was nice to listen to people sharing the same opinions rather hateful comments and replies.
I waited years to buy the game.. I just did and got scared how some basics are still broken to the point of it being literary unplayable at times.
It's funny how the terms alpha and beta are used. The original definitions are simple. Alpha state is when not all systems are in the game yet. Beta is all systems have been implemented into the engine. So server meshing not being in the game yet basically makes this an alpha and it seems it will be alpha for awhile longer due to the plans to add new systems. Beta will come when all these core systems are in the game but still need to fleshed out.
For Sulyce’s final thought/question… yes, yes and yes.
@13:00. That's called being close to the flag pole in the Army. The closer you are, the more regimented it gets. The further away (and smaller your echelon) you get, the more lax rules and discipline get.
I'm not sure if anyone actually pointed this out, but CIG kind of _did_ implement a "Powerwash Simulator" in SC. Playing salvage and casually scraping hull material off of wrecks is pretty much the same experience, and it's one of the most relaxing things I know of in the game.
Concord cost 200 million supposedly and took 8 years and it colsed after 2-3 weeks... i have some suspision that star citizen will receive similar treatement due to the hardcore direction Sc going for... an extremly tedious and complex where you risk a lot for not much and will have to redo the same boring things over and over and over... pretty sure SC wont be a success at release and might be dead on arrival because CIG decided to make their game tedious instead of fun... and focusses on boring moundain task when they should focus on the sci fi and more epic things in the verse... i dont want fire extinguisher gameplay in a space game.. i want to explore cool alien ruins.. see alien cities and interect with other races... i want to compete in epic races, i want to ho on a jouney to find an artefact that no one has found... i want to see alient style planets with very crazy giant plants something that dont look like an earth biome at all... i want to find some giant crystals formation in a distant asteroid bets.... not piling boxes in a shop for 1 hour, not going through 3 different inventory ui to get a gun equiped... not extinguishing fire in a ship made of metals.... i dont want to loose eveything i found during my journey because ive been ganked by a pirate org with elite fps player and dog fighter.... thats all things that will ultimately push away so many players that Sc wont be viable.
Playing by yourself with be to hard no one will play with master modes
SC isn't for you then. Sounds like you want to play something like Mass Effect. Which is a really good game, but it's not SC. I love the idea of maybe having to put out a fire.
Sounds like SC isn't for most people who play games then, that's what he's talking about. @latjolajban81
The connection that people haven't drawn yet-- but will in time-- is that the exact same toxic positivity leading to Concord's release and failure is happening with Master Modes and the Flight Model. Everywhere you go you see people like Space who want to act like being rude about this game over differing opinions on flight is somehow one of the worst atrocities you can commit; the CIG forums are even worse. You can't be critical of MM because all parties agree that the only victim is the "tryhard." "Tryharding" of course is the one thing this community is allowed and encouraged to be toxic about because it is a racist dog-whistle for "white male." If you need a demonstration just watch Space's video with Avenge; you've never seen a white man choose his words so carefully who wasn't being held at gunpoint.
Oh god it's Paul, skip! Jk jk what an awesome group, looking forward to this one.
Really great ep and many should watch this, from backers to CIG employees.
Only a quarter way through the video, but following the conversation about the communication: I think they should use their roundup for that. So often, we get „there are no updates“, while there were dozens of small updates during the week. This is how I would want to be updated officially by CIG
This was a pleasure to be a part of! Until next time!
When dynamic server meshing finally works and is stable, CIG could then easily make a shard for playing starcitizen alone or with an org, where NPCs hopefully will work too. It is plausible when dynamic server meshing works as intended. Create your own server so to speak through CIG.
I don’t foresee CIG doing this as servers are expensive and they would literally have to have 1 server per person to make this work in the off chance everyone decided to go to their own server. Dynamic Server meshing is intended to enable multiple people from multiple servers be connected into a single shard. When a server gets too much traffic, either by players or entities, a new server can spool up, connect to the same shard and split an area up so the server work load is distributed. A room full of multiple people could split off from a server that was processing data for the entire building at one point. So CIG will determine a viable server count that they can afford in their budget and will set it up so those servers are always running something. But say there is a corner of the universe that no players are currently located at. A server can then spool down, and then immediately connect to a location that needs the help. So in theory there would only be a handful of inactive servers as a sort of buffer and ready on standby when a location needs the help. Otherwise CIG is going to do the bare minimum, which in turn means that majority of the servers will constantly be running at all times. Remember the purpose of Dynamic Server Meshing is meant to make it cost effective for Server meshing. This is why it has never been done at this scale before. You start breaking a huge game up into multiple server sections, you would have servers that are not being used waste money. And if you shut that server down to save money, that data is then lost and is no longer persistent. So the meshing enables for long term persistence because that data is always transferred to a replication server that is always running. That way when an unused server is spooled down and then connects to a different location, if a player re-enters the area the old server was connected to, either that server can then be rebooted for that location or an entirely new server can take its place yet still have the same data it had before. Hence I put a coffee cup in the forest, that coffee cup location data is transferred in real time to the replication service, I can leave that area, that server spools down, I return to that area, a new server spools up to cover that location, it connects to the replication layer that handles that coffee cup’s location data, and then places that cup, in real time as that location is loading in as I enter it.
The last two podcast have been amazing. I particularly love the guests in this one. Keep it up Tomato.
I would love to see the NPCs in the game come to life with chat bots.
The marketing team has a schedule, and a set timeline on how they do things. The development team is on its own schedule and timeline. They are different teams doing different things. They overlap, but the marketing team is going to push marketing regardless of whether the dev team is ready for them to put the marketing material out or not.. I really want to put this out there so people may understand the marketing a bit more.
The best way CIG could grow SC is to just keep the PTU adding features and tweaks as they are ready and once they meet a PU readiness ship it across and start loading the next lot into the PTU. Rather than relying on big delayed patches. Constant iteration rather than slow drop feed.
1:04:00 as an outsider looking in with some game dev experience, 12 years and not having the CORE of the game finished is kinda insane, i do think it deserves some extra space do to the scope of the game but lets take the flight model and death for instance, those arent really scope dependent.
flight model would be the same if you had 1 system, or 100 systems.
now i suppose you could argue that other systems could have largely varying gravitys, like maybe 1 system just has way more massive and dense planets than another.
that argument still doesnt convince me because its still gravity... every system has gravity.
if anything that is a very fast minor patch to the flight model (Literally a slider value that would change). there shouldnt be any large changes to it 12 years in.
and i dont think i need to explain why death isnt scope dependent.
this game looks awesome and im excited for its future, in fact i just bought a game package.
but man the dev team seems to be sooooo disorganized.
from what ive been seeing from keeping up with it over the years and much more closely recently, i think we'd be lucky if 4.0 came out before the end of summer 2025
(im saying this right after SCCon 2024)
love the pod!
excited for the future of this game and the community.
Awesome podcast. Lovely. Ta all
Good to see Citizen Central come back, though I have to say, that was one depressing episode.
For me, 3.24 'bricked' my account (and it's not just me: there's an Issue Council ticket with multiple contributors) and it's been like this for many days now; perhaps 3.24.1 will fix it, maybe. To engage with 3.24 live (not PTU) I resorted to creating a second account and bought a Starter Pack. Some will consider this somewhat extreme, I'm sure, but it's my choice - and it has allowed me to prove that a Cutter can transport 11 SCU and let you get into and out of the ship past the boxes, trying to look for a silver lining here...
Rewarding CIG's incompetence with a monetary reward only incentivises them to never release the game and punishes us. Thanks a lot champ. 🤡
@@SledTillDead With all due respect: I make decisions based on me and mine; and that's it.
19:35 for the next minute
Paul identifies the reality of the situation, they are no matter what going to upset people with communication or lack there of. So if you are CIG, existing in this society, you pick the option that benefits you most, and that is: no comms. Their marketing can work off of that. The problem is social expectations, CIG is just playing the game like any other business
Good overall conversation as always. A lot of assumptions as expected but it’s the nature of SC due to CIGs limited communication on development. I think rightfully so, they’re the only studio building the game that no AAA studio would build, they have to figure out the best approach in this frontier. The only real say the community has is with their wallet. I do believe CIG will get it done, just many aren’t willing to wait.
I have been saying this for years! 2.0-3.0(Now 3.24.X) is what most game do fully behind cloesd doors Full Alpha test that most gamers NEVER see...... 5-10years of developing. .. ..4.0 Will be SC Open Bate (Early Access) that we see now a days for 1-2Years. So if you look at it that way.. SC is right on track or.. ahead of what is needed to make a game on this scale work.
I tried to come back and play after this patch. I upgraded the Mustang to the Avenger Titan. I was able to upgrade but now I cant retrieve the ship. Also I cant enter my small hanger. I have tried all the online tips to fix it and nothing works. My game is broken. Tough way to come back to the game.
Always enjoy your videos
Thanks for watching!
Also, over the last two years, expecting a continued upward trajectory at the same pace year over year post pandemic simply isn't a reasonable expectation. CIG is making the same amount of money as last year, but there are nearly 400k new accounts over last year. So it isn't simply old backers, there are still tons of new people coming in and spending $. CIG isn't losing people, the interest in the project just isn't maintaining the exponential growth that it did during the pandemic but is still maintaining the same if not greater levels of funding. It's a flawed argument to say that it's old backers keeping funding going when we have had nearly 400k new accounts created over last year but funding is on par with last year.
This was an awesome discussion gents
Marketing is driven by KPIs.
KPIs come from management.
And are reviewed by shareholders .. that part is missing. There is zero accountability. The loop is broken.
How could hundreds of devs get moved over from S42 and not make a huge splash? This has been a horrific year for SC and I think we need to start talking about CR’s leadership style.
Ahhh man some citizen central, Ive been waiting for this for a long time!
At the end of the day, this has not been done before. If it was easy, every other developer would have done it by now. I fully believe once CIG is done adding the core tech, we will see a flood of features that will silence the skeptical.
And by the way, in the time it has taken them to get to this point, no other company has come forward to claim their title within the last ten years, they've been trying to do it first. No matter what, Star Citizen will be the first to succeed or fail at what it's attempting to do. ❤
Any thoughts on SoulDinger? That CIG trademarked? Almost makes me want to give up on project.
The silence around it (be it from CIG or the pro Star Citizen youtubers) says enough I think. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt (again) and see what comes out of it.
hoping it's addressed at CitCon. Aint no way SC backer resources are going to another game when we're in this state. That'd be final straw for me... but taking a big hit of copium, perhaps it's the new official name for the Quantum NPC system, idk.
@staybussin Yes because everything they say at Citizencon tends to be true.
@@nebulajumper6216 😂😂😂
It’s cigs server tech
51:15 No, that categorically is not correct. They've specifically said the opposite. PES was far and away more complicated. It was introduced using the "big bang approach," as Benoit put it. They aren't doing that with Server Meshing, they've done exactly what they said they would post PES to implement the supporting technologies to allow for Server Meshing. It's why 3.23 took longer with Replication Layer Separation, it's why 3.24 took longer with refactors to Transit etc. Hence why the expectation that Morph is presenting is fundamentally flawed, because the information that he's using as a basis for it is incorrect.
Star Citizen hasn't met expectations?? You mean 15 years and over $700 million for a buggy alpha at 30fps wasn't what you were expecting??
What irks me most about marketing is, that they seem to not make their ads dependent of the actual status of a patch or a feature. There really should be some kind of last check before going online with an ad - I have a lot of experience with online marketing, and there normally is ALWAYS a last "go" before an ad goes on. And if a patch is really buggy, you should hold back any ad that advertises features that don't work right now - because if people click on the ad and buy the game BECAUSE of certain features, and that features don't work yet, they could get the impression of false marketing. Not that I think CIG does this on purpose, it is really a matter of being "tone-deaf", like you guys said.
They need to add a last "stop/go gateway test", dependent on the features working or not before going out with an ad. Otherwise, they should use more general ads instead, and hold the specialized ones back until they can advertise the features with good conscience, because they actually WORK as intended.
AND - they really should change the tone of some of their ads. They use ads that imply a really fast paced, combat oriented, very action heavy gameplay - but this is not what Star citizen is, at least for the moment - it is much slower paced, with much management and simulation and realism, and the ads should represent this more and heavier instead of the fast paced combats they show in most ads. Especially, because it attracts the wrong target groups, IMHO. We need simulation players mainly, right? People who have the patience to prepare for a mission for 10 - 30 minutes, preparing their ships, tweaking and tuning their engines, equipping their characters, planning their missions and their routes, etc. - the ads don't show this part of the game AT ALL! They seem to imply a very fast, almost arcadelike gameplay - which Star citizen is not and doesn't try to be.
There's also the consideration to make that, inspite of all the caveats and small writing thrown around in places,...if someone were to be really REALLY pissed about this kind of marketing and felt mislead after the fact, they could probably, when living in the EU, find a lawyer that digs up the right legislations and then in a figurative sense go twist CIGs wrists a couple of times and screw them over because of it.
I mean that's just a random thought put out there, I have in fact no idea of legislations or anything like that, but I do know that EU consumer protection is usually one of the best and rather strict, so I wonder how much leeway CIG has or by any chance is banking on unawareness or forbearance by backers not wanting to deal with that mentally/timely.
@@avon_c6199 if that was the case we'd never see any of these ads for these copy paste scam mobile games.
With what Sulyce said about them advertising it as a live service game and they don't have content: I dont want them to release everything they have now and have the wider community (and you know they will) be up in arms and complaining about there not being enough content because they burnt through it during the testing phase. If this happened on release of 1.0, itd kill the game player base wise because new people into the game are just hearing from the older alpha testers that theres "no content". Let them make the game and just trust they have the content there in the background ready for release.
The amount of diversity of opinions toward the end, that was amazing. Getting Sulyce into the mix was a good perspective to view from as well. Great Show!!!
I don't agree with the idea that the game isn't an alpha. They're definitely still working on underlying systems before working on content.
Delivery missions were left as boring missions, but I think that's because they weren't mainly supposed to be entertainment. Delivery missions got players landing, quantum jumping, interacting with lots of doors and surfaces, in a variety of locations. From a testing perspective, they've done the job. I don't want more intricate delivery missions that slow down back end system dev. Have those people finish the SQ42 polish or design more mission types or something until the underlying systems are done. Then build on that stable and complete foundation
Great cast, but I find the current narrative consistently frustrating. The game was definitely overhyped at Citcon 2023, but there is this constant gaslighting of the community that we haven't had what was promised this year. No, Pyro is not out yet, and frankly, it needs to be out before the end of the year (and not just Evocati) so that we can finally move the hell on from Pyro being the focus. That said, 3.23 and 3.24 have massively shifted both the interface for the game (UI, MM) and how you interface with the game (physicalization, freight, cargo missions). I think we forget that 3.18 was just last year and we're light years beyond that now. A lot of the MM hate train has been trying to bring the entire community down about the state of the game, and we all seem to be falling for that anti-hype. No, we're not where we need to be yet, but the period of 3.20-3.24 has introduced so many changes to the game, especially in that drought leading up to 3.18 (do we remember that 2022 was basically a 1 nothing-burger patch year?), that it's like a completely different game. Now we just need the whole Pyro thing to happen and go away so we can stop hearing about it.
I had to dip out of this whining session at about minute 25, I honestly think this is more about expectation management than anything else.
Morph wants to know sooner what happened? Here is what happened, as everyone should know by now: Shit broke and now they’re working on removing the blocker to continue with larger scale tests. That’s pretty easy to cobble together I think.
Marketing should assume the game is broken and communicate that? Really? Come on guys, this is a bit silly.
Plus, I am having way too much fun playing 3.24, which turned out to be a pretty damn sweet patch for many reasons.
So yeah, I’ll tune in for the next one when the vibe is a bit more reasonable.
Makes sure to polish that shield and armour 1st.
Nice to see all of the hosts putting themselves into CIGs shoes at some point and showing some empathy. Most people just rant without ever questioning themself "Could I have done it in a better way than CIG?".
Honestly I think Pyro is more more of a feature to those of us that are consistantly playing, I don't think many new/sideline backers care much about pyro. Enginering seems to be more of a bigger feature for them, at least anicdotally I know more people sitting by waiting for engineering then pyro
I imagine based on the almost universally panned features coming from SQ into the MMO, the c-suites should be shitting themselves. i see more giant rewrites in our future
They should definitily add more component to salvage and let them be taken from all the ships in game.
Awesome video Tomato and cast!
Sorry late post, MM broke the Argo SRV, due to CSM mode being locked behind MM, this ship has become useless now that you can no longer tractor vehicle through quantum. As soon as you switch to NAV mode, the tractor beam disengages. Again there is this separation between design teams and communication failures between these teams and this is why Star Citizen is is so far apart from its original design and where it is now. because no 1 team knows what the end goal of this game is to be. Chris has his vision, but CIG don't seem to know what that is and are making it up as they go along. is there a path or are they just throwing ideas at walls and seeing what sticks.
I'm still pissed about the pay to play Pyro play test. I've spent hundreds of dollars on Star Citizen but I was excluded from the play test because I didn't buy their $35 pack of shit. I haven't spent a dime on the game since. I don't think I will ever forgive them for that. Then they changed the wave system so now I can't even test in the PTU so I quit.
I think a 1.0 release with less than a half dozen star systems will be more than enough. It's quality over quantity. If you have enough content nobody will care that you won't have 100 systems in the game
On the topic of the game has taken 12 years, we have to keep in mind that they’re making Sq42 as well. We have no idea how good/bad that game looks. If it looks good and releases next year, I’d say they’ve done well in 12 years
Do release that "releasing SQ42" became "release SQ42 part 1" during these 12 years. Giving them a way out in case the game is short.
It's difficult doing dev out in the open because no one other than devs understands how dev is done. It's often done by going one step forward and several back because you have to rework older systems as you introduce new ones. This looks particularly bad to non-devs because it looks and appears that things get worse, when in reality the overall outcome is a net positive the surface level outlook appears negative. Marketing, is marketing. They have a separate goal entirely, and developers have no clue about any of that, they just talk about what they are working on. If devs are positive, and their outlook is positive that speaks WORLDS, let me tell you! As a dev for 20 years, if the devs are negative, and depressed, your project is in REALLY REALLY bad shape. But if they are positive, man, that speaks worlds at how well things are going because enthusiastic developers means the code is in really good shape, the tech is in really good shape, and the backend is very positive.
My only issue with alpha and beta is that in their letter to the chairman the release it states that 4.0 WILL be beta and than 1.0 is the live release. I also thought that a live release will be so lackluster with possibly only two systems released, like in all seriousness how long are we gonna have to wait for NIX and magma to to come in to the game another 5years each???? What happened to having a 100 systems at release when in reality it’ll probably just be two
Just not surprised anymore and absolutely have 0% trust in anything CIG says, so I just play, but have no expectations so when stuff comes at some point it’s fun, but wasn’t disappointed for months before getting it.
SQ 42 is 3 chapters over 6 years from release. They wont be freed up for the PU they will continue work on the next chapters.
Morph's beard hair is on his head.
The most developed part of the game is combat at the expense of all other game loops.
Kotaku is one of those "will never be pleased" people. They'll be negative about 4.0 no matter what.
SQ42 is gatekeeping SC from many features and gameplay. Whereas it is because they want to keep those "secret" until SQ42 releases or/and because they have mainly focused on the development of SQ42 instead of SC.
We shall see how the release of SQ42 impact the speed at which SC evolves.
It won't. They have intentions on working on the next SQ42 title or one of their 3rd developments.
I'm still positive on SC, but one fact is that if CIG release 1 starsystem a month, It will take them 8 years to release all the planned starsystems.
I would hope they employ procedural generation. There’s no good logistical reason to handcraft each and single one of them. They can handcraft a small number of popular destinations like the cities we have now on Stanton, and leave the rest for procedural generation to fill in the void. Not all star systems need to have that amount of complexity either. There are plenty of systems out there not suited to sustain life in any capacity, and that’s fine for housing a couple space stations to support fuel stops or asteroid mining.
@@CodesmithEvanion locations are useless without gameplay, no mans sky got kicked in the head with that one. Yes gameplay needs locations and assets, but it doesn’t need 100 star systems or assets and they have nothing to do in them. It needs more devs that can code clearly, the ratio is / has been off for years with star citizen. Art assets and animation, while ignoring the fact that you can lightly touch a ship and it explodes.
@@Eagle6Airsoft they’ve mentioned years and years and years ago that they would implement procedural generation as a means to help, but they would need to polish the generated planets. Hope people realize why some players are a bit irate when we’ve had the same discussion for nearly a decade now.
@@Eagle6Airsoft my comment just stated a mathematical fact.
Nms, elite.. never caught my interest purely due to the lack of crafted vistas, and instead heavily relying on procedural generated systems. But it’s a question of scale. And the plan was to have just over 100 systems. And if they release one system per month, it would take 8 years.
But.. add to that all the artist work needed to craft a system to the quality that SC requires. There is no way they could average a pace of 1/month. So in reality, delivering all those systems would take a lot longer
My take is that it should start procedural, which will take the devs 80% of the way there and then craft the rest of the system by "hand" to ensure there's engaging and relevant content.
Systems only need to come online as the player base grows. Not having enough players in any one system will bring us back to where we are now, regardless of the end goal, dynamic server meshing.
Maybe I'm just more tuned out of marketing messaging as a whole, but I just don't think its not that bad. Almost every company is in your face marketing their products and I just don't feel like SC is really that agressive comparatively
Marketing team of SC are bordering on malpractice. Have you been living under a rock? Look how they present the game to lure gullible people, and look at the literal shitshow of a tech demo we have.
where's buzzcutpsycho?
Doesn't matter if it's marketed as "live", doesn't change what alpha and beta mean. The game is in alpha so long as it's in development and feature incomplete. Beta is polishing. When other games open the gates for people to try it doesn't change what the words mean.
Star Citizen is in alpha, period.
I think that they are really afraid to release SQ42 because of it's state. A huge part of their "it will be fine" statement loops around server meshing and SQ42. If SQ42 comes out and it is a feature/performance disaster, it is basically over with this project.
And like in the early 2000 where Chris abused the German tax loophole by receiving money to finance his hobbies and getting sued for unfinished and abondonned projects, he seem to not have learned from it. This Soulsinger drama seem to put the finger on new "behind the scene" shenanigans.
And sorry, but if true and one day it is proven that RSI misled people for personal gain or used the money for other purposes, then people who knew this was all a scheme, decised to ignore it and misled players to buy in it on purpose to get a part of cake (be it money or clicks) should also be investigated and be part of incoming lawsuits, as they would be part of the pyramid scheme.
Im not ok with the statement that a game for everyone is ultimately a game for no one... Example GTA 5 The most sucessfull game.
1: you have a game for single player lover
2: you have online mode
3: you have pve and pvp
4: you have shooting but also other activities like racing,
I think thats why rockstar games are so sucessfull, they manage to have a bit of everything and eveyr aspect tries to be well done.
and also its a game that is easilly accessible for every gamer.. and i have to say its a good game overall.
My question for you is: If server meshing is not the jesus tech and wont really solve anything... what will lol if you get all the tech to create your game and the game still dont work .. what doest it mean?? whats can make the game work after that??
Even MSFS doesn't make you drive from your hotel to the airport and then go through security.
I heavily disagree that CIG's marketing is a problem. It brings in money, like it's supposed to so CIG doesn't go bankrupt. Players aren't obligated to buy into the marketing. Some do, I won't judge them for how they spend their money. It is what it is at the end of the day you only need to spend $45. The alternative is a far more predatory monetization system. We don't want that. I'd rather have them flashing ship commercials at me every ISC than the financing model of 80% of games on the market these days.
Morph getting mad for not able to monetize sc
Why do you think these channels exist in the first place? :)
I haven't logged in to the game for the last 3 years...
CIG is also creating their own drama. Especially by showing feature and never delivering them for years. Hacking for instance. And for Pyro, they decided to gate it behind server meshing wich was not mandatory. They could have created independent servers as a temporary measure. As a result they have not deliver any new planet since several years after having delivering one each year for a long time. Of course this create frustation from backers. And work for themn to maintain things that no one use.
Poor voidude kept trying to talk while muted.
time and time again it seems that there's some bad leadership decision makers in the marketing/communications/PR department that need to be changed -- either in strategy, culture or personel to become better and more accurate in their communication to new players. old backers are getting tapped dry. if they can nail down their communication to the public and more importantly new players while preventing the 5+ yr SC veterans from drowning potential new players in salt.
So Pyro is delayed again, when is it coming out now? 2025 Q1? What have they said?
Star Citizen will never see the light of day. They'll just barely get SQ42 out, then the whole game will quietly fade away.
Second thing: it's not hard, at all, to remain excited sbout SC because as it is now it remains the dope hotness, unmatched across gaming, period.
Last thing. All marketing, on earth, is predatory. If it has to be marketed, it is a want, and not a need, that is value-corporatized to move money from your wallet, and mine, into the pocket of the marketing enterprise. There is no marketing that is failing to prey upon you for that purpose. Broccoli? Zero marketing. Eggs? Zero marketing. I worry that people divide among marketing efforts and styles, either it clicks with you, for the fullest dimension of reasons, or it doesn't. It's gotta be okay that it doesn't, but i dont know why we would THEN tell CIG not to market or to disconnect marketing from its intents when it is clearly, unambiguously effective. The only way to change marketing of SC by CIG is for them to see it diminish in its effectiveness. Right? Or am i crazy? Lets differentiate our expectations of the marketing arm from broad backer communication, which CAN be seen as different, and under different rules of expectation.
This may amuse: here in England many years ago there was marketing for eggs under the slogan: "Go to work on an egg", from memory.
Had forgotten is was quite so long ago but checked and indeed the UK Egg Marketing Board started a campaign to address a drop in egg consumption in 1956 that continued into the 1960s and had the "Go to work on an egg" slogan I remembered...
There absolutely is marketing on everything that has not negligible price.
@@First_Chapter yeah we had "the incredible edible egg" campaign here in the US as well, but to dispel bad science about eggs and cholesterol.
Easy fix to A2's.. Shielding around buildings that needs to be taken down by foot soldiers. *Limit on shield strength to 10 Sz 10 bombs. ish
Pyro will be turbo ass with sprinkles of master modes 😂
It feels like Morph is really hitting his breaking point lately. His takes have become more and more negative over the past year and he seems the most frustrated/upset out of everyone in this discussion. Obviously everyone is entitled to their own feelings and opinions but sad to see that change in him over the past 12-18 months. He used to be one of the best communicators for the game.
Lol this dude started manifesting his demon when he said Jesus tech. "I hate that term"
Fwiw the website now says "Play early access"
They will make promises that won't be kept.
Too much emphasis is put on New and Exciting than is on making what is already in play being fine tuned to work properly as advertised. This is how they think they can bring in new players and sell ships to existing players and so increase profits. What is going to happen is they will loose existing customers because of performance problems and these customers will no longer make purchases or for that matter continue to play the game. The disgruntled players will then talk new players out of purchasing the game or existing ones from putting any more cash into new ships or other upgrades.
What I find crazy is that there are people who will follow the next Citizencon, You realize that it will deal with the same subject as Citizencon 2016, "4.0 traveling in several solar systems", without having been able to get one out
Nah i dont think it will be Pyro stuff. They keep talking about 4.0 in ISC before citcon already. Citcon will be SQ42, crafting, base building, new Star Systems, tiny bit of 4.0. (And you’re definitely gonna see all the citcon content who are you lying to)
@@TKanal3 yeah, and they were already talking about this citcon after the last one ended, my guess it a lot of sq42 with a possible release date, more showcase on crafting and basebuilding although I doubt it'll come into the game anytime soon and showing off Nyx since that system has apparently been worked on already by the team working on Pyro since Pyro was so delayed by server meshing
@@the_steamtrain1642 i think theyll show like 3 systems or so and well wait for the other two except nix for ages. But itll be hype. (alltho i dont think well ever wait as long for a system as for pyro again)
The guy has a point they are still talking about 2016 topics to this day at citizencons. The games ability to hype and yet complete inability to hit those expectations is shocking. They just don’t know how to do the things they talk about when they talk about them.
Be careful, I commented this before in his last pod cast and SC white-knights showed up. lmfao