I don’t think Mace is as dumb as people think he is, but he’s also not a hyper genius. I think he’s smart enough to realize that everyone needs him so much that he doesn’t really have to try to get most of what he wants.
It seems very representative of his house. Everyone else is fighting for power like wild animals: wolves and lions and stags. The Riverland trout is consumed as spoils in the fighting. Meanwhile House Tyrell hardly fight at all. Just sit back... Growing Strong.
If people think he is no threat then they might aswell try to use him for themselves, the downside being that he might not help as much as he might hurt the cause.
I'm a middle grounder on this one I think Mace is likely a good deal smarter and more capable than he's given credit for but not a genius. There's no way Olenna as Mama Tyrell raised a fool and I do think he relies on being underestimated just like she does. Though, I think it's a role and strategy the Queen of Thorns has foisted on him and he's terribly insecure about it. Hence why he pressured 2 if his 3 boys into being Uber warriors.
@@gokbay3057 He got that leg when Mace forced him into a joust with the Viper before he was ready if I remember correctly, so it's actually a direct consequence of Mace's desire for warrior sons.
Which, funnily enough turned Wilas into an intellectual if I remember correctly, kind of making him the perfect heir. Mace the Ace can't lose even when he's wrong
Being a devoted and loyal Tyrell fan, id like to believe Mace is a genius, but it doesnt matter because he's surrounded by incredibly powerful, intelligent and accomplished family members and bannermen, he only needs to be the face and it allows them to steer scenarios in their favour, but i always bring this up: the Tyrell's are not main characters, their purpose is simply to provide immediate resources,, infantry and strength to whomever they back and having always been loyal Targaryen followers... thats all the reader needs to know.
Brilliant video. I always quote this line from the special features of season 2 Game of Thrones, when GRRM was heavily involved with the show: it is the last line of the lore video about House Tyrell, spoken by Margaery and sums up perfectly the purpose of the Tyrell family in the books: We returned to Highgarden to manage the affairs of the Reach as we had for thousands of years... and will for a thousand more. Other great houses take lions and wolves for their sigils and draw their power from the gold in their mountains or the cold of their winters. But mountains run dry, winters yield to spring AND THE ROSE BLOOMS ONCE MORE
Laying siege is a common battle tactic but as it's not an entirely direct confrontation, despite the fact that he was literally starving out Stannis, the martial lords of Westeros don't take it as actively harming him. Great optics. So, with Robert winning, he suffered no loss to his power. But had Storm's end fallen, both of Robert's brothers would have been captured. Incredibly valuable hostages. Even if he didn't capture the castle, if the Targayens won, he'd still be considered one of their greatest allies. What sort of reward do you give such a man...? A betrothal. Margery with Prince Aegon, or with Viserys if Aerys disinherited Rheagar's line.
I prefer the idea he just sorta stumbled into success. It happens sometimes by accident, not everyone has to be a bond villain that's 4 steps ahead of everyone with all these plots
I always thought Renly was smarter than he got credit for, and played the fool to his advantage. If it wasn’t for a dark magic he couldn’t possibly have known about, he’d have become a hugely popular king with minimal bloodshed.
Mace didnt refuse Tywin on his own though. At first he was seriously considering saying yes, but his mom the Queen of Thorns stopped it by saying Cersei was "too old and too used"
I like to think that he's made aware of and is actively working WITH Olenna's plans, but that he ultimately defers to her guidance. A competent lord who is powerful due to the resources of his region and not selfsabotaging, but I'd hardly consider him a political mastermind.
So i want to make it clear Olenna deosnt head Tyrell family She specificly complains how is Mace idea to make Margery Queen And Loras who make the plan to support Renly She dint like neither of these ideas , yet she could do anything becase is Mace who is the lord D and D really make Mace idiot and give the impression that Olenna rules the family why nothing can be futher from the truth in the books This changed is also seen by show scenes between Olenna and Tywin , why in the books is multiple times mentioned that Tywin is having dinners with Mace and nobody else , except one time with Oberyn ( man who Mace hates)
@@niccolorichter1488, I think Olenna is at the very least exaggerating, if not outright faking, her exasperation with Mace. Despite he reputation for indiscretion she is very cunning, and it serves her well for others to underestimate her son. I think they work together behind the scenes much like Doran and Oberyn did.
Smart or Dumb, you gotta love him! He's so unassuming and goofy that I can't help but admire him, especially considering the schadenfreude world he lives in
I think Mace is supposed to be a criticism of people getting the credit and reward for things just because they're in power rather than the actual lesser-known people who are responsible for those things
Him standing around at Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion was 100% a power move. He, like Tywin, weren't interested in chosing any side except for the winner. It kinda goes to show how Robert and even Joffery were right. Overall, one unified Westerosi army is what's needed for their nation to truly thrive. Less infighting, more advancements in society, tech, etc. They're not loyal to the King or Crown, its their own self interest. They're all basically "kings" of their own Kingdoms, albeit they're more like "Petty Kings" compared to the one High King, which was often a Targaryen.
Genius or not, the perception that the Tyrells are ruled by women are undermining him in the eyes of his vassal - Randyl Tarly - who may be one of the "friends in the Reach" championing (f)Aegon's cause.
there is nothing to prove this outside of the outlandish tarly's betrayal of the show... there's more ground for the tyrell themselves being the "friends of the reach"
I actually like the concept of Mace Tyrell and his Mother being a lot more coordinated in their plotting than we are led to believe. The fact that Mace, one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms actively encourages his Mother to talk shit about him at Court to make his opponents underestimate him and House Tyrell in general despite the fact they have the largest army as well as wealth second only to the Lannisters is such a GRR Martin thing to do.
He's definitely an effective facesitter and planner for reasons people have already commented. 'But what about Olena? She says he's stupid!' Well yeah, but that could easily be her being a grumpy old woman whose son isn't do exactly what she says...or it's misdirection maybe, and she's a pulling a Doran/Oberyn esque misdirection where the rose hides the thorns. Other people point out his saying what Robb should do when he was cut off from the north is stupid...but it's then moreorless what Robb ended up planning anyway.
Interesting topic. I love Alt Schwift X and Glidus' take on this in one of Glidus' streams discussing ASoIAF theories. They theorized that Mace wore a massive helmet to protect his giant brain. I suspect he could be the Darth Jar Jar of Westeros.
Personally, I don't think of Mace as a huge moron; he's most likely just airheaded but competent enough to not do stupid decisions (like banning beets)
One of many inspirations of GRRM writing is a Book/miniseries of BBC called "I, Claudius", where the main character is emperor Claudius (played by Derek Jacobi) was a lame stuttering pathetic man who was abused and shunned by almost entire family, but here the thing, Claudius was acting his disabilities (it's noting that he born with this problems but a same time, he make this disabilities even worse than looks like), and so thanks of that nobody thinks Claudius was actually a threat and not even noteworthy for the title Augustus/Emperor of Roman empire, and so he survived disguising himself as "harmless nobody", he survived against the schemes and treachery of his own family, likes of ambitious and treacherous grandmother (Livia, wife of emperor Octavian Augustus), paranoid and aggressive uncle (emperor Tiberius), and his violent and crazy nephew (emperor Caligula). It's a great book/miniseries everyone should watch or read.
I never thought he was an idiot, just pompous. On top of all the points others are making, when we see him organize troops to march on the high sparrows i got the impression that there was serious military coordination and discipline by their lock-step formations. I know Jaimie rolled his eyes at the “madness has had its day!” Speech, but i liked it, and personally i think that his flattering and arrogant personality detract from the perception of his logistical mind.
Interesting video. I side more with Quinn on this [9:30 - 10:04] but fantasyhaven's presence was a fun addition and thank you both for your efforts on this video 👍🏾
I missed your last sopranos post so here's a couple: What kind of animal gets poisoned at his own wedding? Quaithe, Daenerys... she even exist? In this house Lomas Longstrider is a hero. End of story!
This theory (though I'm not sure if I believe it) would make Mace a reflection of Littlefinger, in that instead of just the in-book characters all being fooled by him, we the readers were fooled. Both use "feign incompetence" to trick people into trusting them, Petyr coming from small beginnings and Mace being an Oaf.
I mean whether it was Mace‘s or Olenna‘s doing, the Tyrells definitely played their cards right, and have managed to benefit massively from the Lannister‘s self-sabotage. Yeah, sure, being Lords of the Reach is a pretty good power base, but you don‘t win the Game of Thrones by default, and what is won can be easily lost. When the events started, the Tyrells were not in a dominant position among the Great Houses. Careful maneuvering or not, their side lost during the Rebellion and despite Robert being pretty cool about it, his time on the throne was very much marked by the Houses that won him the throne: Baratheons, Lannisters, and Arryns or their Bannermen dominated the government and Houses Stark and Tully undoubtedly still had personal ties to Robert. When it came to war, it was always Eddard and Stannis that Robert turned to. So that was the Situation before the clash of kings. At the end of it, the Tyrells have almost all the power in King‘s landing. And I don‘t think you can chalk this up to sitting things out or winning by default. The War of Five kings is a fairly complex political and military conflict, on par with the 30 Years War, or the Sengoku Jidai. You don‘t win at those just because of luck or you happened to have some power before. Look at how the Tyrell‘s erstwhile allies have fared: Renly is dead. The Lannisters imploded. And the other contenders for the crown have also fallen. The Starks, Tullys and Baratheons are basically removed from the political map and their holdings given to other houses. It doesn‘t really matter who is the brains of House Tyrell, they clearly outplayed their rivals. And they can still come out on top later on: if Aegon‘s campaign is successful they are perfectly placed to ditch Tommen and offer to wed Margaery to Young Griff. He gets King‘s Landing without lossesnand Mace‘s Grandchildren still end up on the Iron Throne (if not for Daenaerys etc). I think one thing that stands out about the Tyrells is that, like Eddard‘s and Doran‘s families, they stick together. The Tyrells don‘t sabotage each other like the Lannisters and Baratheons, they play on the same team the whole time and don‘t lose sight of the big picture over petty grievances. Imagine if Tywin or Stannis had a gay son, the resulting generational trauma would have been visible from orbit. But not everyone is like that: Loras gets to do his thing, his relationship with Renly leads to a pretty good political alliance for them; Renly can‘t marry a dude, no problem for Mace who also has a daughter, Renly can marry her as a beard (and for heirs) and everyone is apparently happy. No one getting traumatized, murdered in the toilet or framed for regicide. Everyone gets to do their thing. I bet if Mace had a dwarf for a son who happened to be pretty good at this politics thing, his family would not have ended up trying to murder him.
i'd say he is cleverer then he looks or lets on, waiting at Storms end and sending a force under Randyll Tarly to chase Robert out of the Reach is a good move, he loses little, makes himself look loyal to crown by sending a army to stop Robert, and yet by simply laying siege and allowing feasts and tourneys outside storms end if the rebellion wins, then he hasn't pissed them off by killing the new kings brothers and taking Storms end. He also is wise enough to suspect Robert Strong and is able to correctly realise if he sends all his forces to the Reach to fight the ironborn, take Dragonstone and march on Aegon, then his daughter will be defenceless and likely her trial will be rigged, so he makes a smart move to vow not to go unless his daughter wins her trial, thus ensuring if Cersei or the faith try anything he's got a big army able to quickly take the city. But he's still not that bright, nowhere near Olenna or Tywin.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. He's not a supergenius, but he's not an idiot. He got some lucky cards and played them adequately. I do think his mother is the "woman behind the man", but he's wise enough to listen to her and maybe plays up his own stupidity a bit.
Mace is the epidome of circumstance. He was born in the right place with the right station with the right name. He never did wrong, while simultaneously remaining unremarkable. Murphies law dictates he wins through established advantage, rather than skill. The man assumes his success and seems innocent to the benefit of those more devious around him who keep him in their best interest. The man lives a perfectly cultivated life.
I does seem like Mace & the Golden Roses are experts at ‘unmerited’ advancement. The effect seems to be that objection to their newly acquired primacies is never widespread.
Imagine Wilias being Margery champion in her trial by combat. The High Sparrow laughing their asses of them he just sprints towards their champion and kills him in one shot
@@mysteryjunkie9808 and then getting back in the wheelchair, claiming it was divine intervention that allowed him to use his legs briefly. people think the gods ensure that the side who is right will win in trial by combat, so this would seem like the ultimate proof.
"All the wealth of the Reach cannot buy us neutrality, Mother!" Father snapped. "The Lannisters are to our east and west, Renly and Dorne to our south, the Arryns and the wolves to our north. All of them will look to the Reach for support, and the moment we raise our banners for one the others will fall on us like vultures. We are too wealthy to stay above the fray for long and not strong enough to fight when beset on all sides. Every time House Tyrell has tried to stay out of the crown's disputes, the war is inevitably fought at our gates, and every time that happens, with every drop of Reachman blood spilled our hold on Highgarden slips that little bit more." He scowled ferociously at the maps strewn about the table. "History tells us that the Reach may be players in the game, or they may be the playing field. The riverlands had that choice taken from them, and where are the river kings now? It's really that simple, Mother. Choosing to be players carries a risk and you might call it foolish-you may even be right. But I say that pretending to be above it all and losing our bannermen by oath or sword one by one is a hundredfold times more foolish! I will not be the lord who sees the name Tyrell go into the rubbish pile like the Teagues or the Justmans, nor will I see the Gardener's kingdom sundered by a rabble of bloody Stormlanders or Westermen!" -Mace Tyrell, The Westerosii Vol 2
6:24 Of course Mace knows, but Mace sees a huge opportunity. He eliminates Tyrion, the competent Lannister child who could discover his plans, and appeases both Tywin and Cersei, giving the Tyrell’s more favor and trust.
Mace the Ace is not an idiot, I think he's the type of person that if given a task he should be able to accomplish then he'll accomplish it reasonably well, he won't screw things up or waste an advantage. However I also think he is not extraordinary and if given a task where he should not be able to accomplish it then he won't accomplish it and that his isn't smart or skilled enough to overcome being at a disadvantage. For example he could be trusted to lead a stronger army against a weaker one and he'll probably prevail. However if he has the weaker army then he'll lose. Or as long as his house is an advantageous spot he'll lead it reasonably well, but if (when) things start going wrong, advantages start being lost he'll lead his house to disaster.
He's likely not moving very fast against Aegon for the same reasons he was slow against Robert and in the War of the Five Kings: he's leaving the possibility of a new alliance open. Aegon is unmarried. Margaery is only betrothed to Tommen, not yet married. Lannisters are dropping like flies in the capital, and the most powerful Lannisters are currently in the Riverlands subduing a guerilla band of outlaws. If the winds change, Mace can secure an alliance with Aegon via Margaery and throw open the gates to the Golden Company. It also happens that his unwed eldest son is close in age to the unwed daughter of Doran Martell. This is a bit of a stretch, but could the friendship between Oberyn and Willas have brought the families closer together, only keeping up the appearance of being bitter rivals to throw off their other enemies?
Honestly Rhaeghar should have commanded Mace to lend him Randyll Tarly and parts of his forces when he and the Dornish army was marching through the Stormlands towards the Trident. That would have tipped the balance in his favour against Robert, the garrison in Storm’s End were not strong enough to mount a counter attack against even 1/4 the power of the Reach, so it was dumb of Rhaeghar to leave all these soldiers at Storm’s End doing nothing. Also the most advantageous marriage alliance for Daenerys would be Willas Tyrell when she returns to Westeros, because as Petyr Baelish said if you’re going to fight Lannister you want to befriend Tyrells. Of course this is assuming that the books follow the show and have Margaery die at the Great Sept of Baelor.
It takes the wise man to play the fool. Though in this case, no, his actions at the seige of storms end show him as pompus and full of himself. If anyway dangerous a player varys would have him included more in his web.
To be fair Tyrells became a great house of Westeros thanks to Targaryens so it would be logic if they supported them during the Robert Rebellion. On the other hand, the Tullys didnt doubt to side with the rebels despite Targaryens being their main benefactors.
I don't think he is a genius, but i don't think he is stupid. He might be smarter in a way that Westeros doesn't value in the hyper masculine environment, like for example managing resources, something that from what we knows he does masterfully to win without losing any of his soldiers. he seems smart enough to surround himself with a great council, the ability to listen to others opinions especially for someone that has grown with such privileges is telling. And even as a battle tactician sure he isn't the best of the best but the siege of Stormends isn't far off from Tywin capturing Kings landing just less risky and cruel, and in nearer times he did pretty much correctly anticipate Robb's action if it wasn't for the red wedding. Overall to me, with my 21th century mindset, he sounds better than many praised lord, he doesn't spill unnecessary blood, he values resources and listen to advices. He might have done nothing of fame in 20 years but the reach is thriving under his rule and all of his children are respected, popular and with their own talents. I'm sure Olenna might have something to do with it but an elderly woman can't do everything, plus it really doesn't fit with what the Tyrells approach seems to be, the Tyrells are portrayed as being the other side of the same coin of the Lannister with a major difference being they trust and love each other, they aren't a one man or woman show like the Lannister, they work together. Olenna as this one and only all mighty figure that fandoms lobe to portray her as in the family to me simply doesn't fit, so yeah Mace to me simply might not be the best at those most obvious expected things
Made the Ace is just about the only Great Lord of Westeros still in power since the start of AGOT save only Doran Martell, a truly rarified duopoly of genius and luck
So i want to make it clear Olenna deosnt head Tyrell family She specificly complains how is Mace idea to make Margery Queen And Loras who make the plan to support Renly She dint like neither of these ideas , yet she could do anything becase is Mace who is the lord D and D really make Mace idiot and give the impression that Olenna rules the family why nothing can be futher from the truth in the books This changed is also seen by show scenes between Olenna and Tywin , why in the books is multiple times mentioned that Tywin is having dinners with Mace and nobody else , except one time with Oberyn ( man who Mace hates)
It is strange how explicit the books are about this, and how none of the Lore experts seem to mention this. I feel almost gaslit. Like, I'm SURE there was a passage in one of the books where Olenna says something like: "I said this was all too dangerous, but Mace just went 'tsk tsk, don't worry about it'" or something like that. Mace is the boss of the family, Olenna is just damage control
Yes but notice how Little Carmine made it to the end and was better off than say Johnny Sac or Phil Leotard trying to play the game. Carmine one the game by not playing it
"Renly was eventually killed, probably by Brienne of Tarth" and now my neighbors are awake. And storming around downstairs becuase i loudly blurted out in deep laughter (LBOIDL'd) at that one. That vile woman! The god's may grace a father with daughters, or with sons, or truly bless them with loads of both, but only cruel gods would curse a father with... her. And whatever it SHE is exactly. (y'all agree she didn't kill him, right? Cat killed him. It is known. Cat said something characteristically stupid, selfish, entitled and all around pretentious and unwise, and renly was forced to stab at the words as they floated in midair. THat's my theory, anyway)
The HBO series doesn't do justice (read: terribly dumbs down) great secondary characters like Mace Tyrell and Kevan Lannister. Mace might not be the greatest political mastermind (unless when working in tandem with her mother) but he knows how to play his part to perfection... and also, he's probably the best economist/accountant in all of Westeros.
According to tywin when talking to tyrion mace tyrell wasn't against willis marrying cersei until olenna shot down the marriage offer saying cersei is too old
No , they didn't remain loyal to them ,they enter the war because Robert invade their land , unprovoke, they defeat him but not follow him ,they siege Storm's End but didn't storm it ( that is a likebale sentence ) House baratheon and Tully also "own " their house existing to the targs , but they fight against them, because people are not a monolyte ,and the king can't do whatever he wants The Tyrells probably dont like the mad King either but Robert force them in the war
When your enemy is making a mistake do not interrupt him! - Napoleon Bonaparte Likewise, when your enemy underestimates you, let them! Pretending to be stupid and causing others to believe you is not a bad political strategy
I love the Tyrells, a lot of that is because of the show, especially Margaery and Olenna, but I honestly think Mace isn’t as stupid as everyone makes him out to be and was done a bit dirty in the show, especially season 5. I mean he has went through two wars with his army being relatively unaffected, and has been Hand of the King for two kings. Neither are the one true king, but nobody’s perfect. Having said that making your preteen son joust in a tourney with the likes of the Red freaking Viper wasn’t his best decision.
I mean it should be clear who Mace was when you analyze the battle of Ashford after all any learned man would clearly recognize such greatness after all as a certain man once clearly stated the words ‘Veni Vidi Vinci’ are a personal achievement and thus a clear parallelism equating both figures
When people give credit to Lord Tarly or Lady Olenna or the Reach in general, it just shows that he is a good delegator. He's not an idiot but secret genius is a stretch.
What's strange is that he is stupid and incompetent but he has incredibly smart and competent kids. Maergery is clever and ambitious in the books, Garlan is a good military commander, a great warrior and it seems he has a lot of emotional intelligence the way he spoke with tyrion and he compliments him for his strategies during the blackwater, willas tyrell has impressed oberyn so that should say something (I think oberyn respects his intelligence or something I don't remember) and loras is probably the best tourney knight in all of westeros. So as seemingly stupid as mace is, he did a great job raising those kids or maybe his wife and/or his mother should get the thanks for that.
But stupid compare to who ? Lets compare him with other lords of his rank Ned Stark as hand : no attention to the business of the state, let his child to climb the walls , take Arya in Kings Landing, tell Cersei to take Tywin and run to Essos, trust Littlefinger Mace as hand : make a new small council from his banarmants , double the city watch with his own soliders ,feed the population, built a new tower of the hand , surond Tommen with his own child, nephews and nieces to gain his trust I could make a comparison with Doran Martell also
@@flavius5722 I forgot about that part where he replaced the small council men loyal to him so yeah you're right. He's definitely a better player at the game of thrones than ned that's for sure. Maybe there is something beneath the surface. 1 thing is for sure tho he did raise gifted children.
He's been called stupid openly in the book, that makes him the smartest person in Westeros
Stannis is smart and look where that got him 🤷♂️🤷♂️
@@anonymous-hz2unu must be talking abt the show cause stannis doin fine in the books
@@rummyz6412 I mean. Fine might be stretching it, he's still stuck in the middle of a winter storm with little to no food and even less horses.
@@DominionSorcererfewer
He is what we refer to as simple.. people do not real-eyes (sorry) realise it’s a gift to be simple.
I don’t think Mace is as dumb as people think he is, but he’s also not a hyper genius. I think he’s smart enough to realize that everyone needs him so much that he doesn’t really have to try to get most of what he wants.
I feel this is the actual right take here
he's not stupid nor especially smart
he's just in a very beneficial position
agreed i think he is not dumb but not a genius
He's smart enough to listen to much smarter people like Olenna, that makes him smarter than a lot of morons playing the game like Cersei.
@@khinzaw77Yeah he’s a good deal smarter than people like Tywin because he listens to people more intelligent than him.
Mace sounds competent enough to not actively screw over the advantages comming his way. An aparently very rare ability in our world
It seems very representative of his house. Everyone else is fighting for power like wild animals: wolves and lions and stags. The Riverland trout is consumed as spoils in the fighting. Meanwhile House Tyrell hardly fight at all. Just sit back... Growing Strong.
He's smart enough to stay as far away from Cersei as possible😅
@maemorri " why grab at the cake with others when you can have the loaf for yourself"
someone who gets sometimes asackk of potatosthatt does nothing is better
Casual readers: Hehe, Mace is such a moron
People with too much free time: Mace is the key to all of this
400 IQ: Mace the Ace is too stupid to lose
If people think he is no threat then they might aswell try to use him for themselves, the downside being that he might not help as much as he might hurt the cause.
I'm a middle grounder on this one I think Mace is likely a good deal smarter and more capable than he's given credit for but not a genius. There's no way Olenna as Mama Tyrell raised a fool and I do think he relies on being underestimated just like she does. Though, I think it's a role and strategy the Queen of Thorns has foisted on him and he's terribly insecure about it. Hence why he pressured 2 if his 3 boys into being Uber warriors.
Fairly good take honestly
He pressured his oldest son into it as well, Willas just couldn't become an uber warrior like his little brothers because he was crippled.
@@gokbay3057 He got that leg when Mace forced him into a joust with the Viper before he was ready if I remember correctly, so it's actually a direct consequence of Mace's desire for warrior sons.
Which, funnily enough turned Wilas into an intellectual if I remember correctly, kind of making him the perfect heir. Mace the Ace can't lose even when he's wrong
Being a devoted and loyal Tyrell fan, id like to believe Mace is a genius, but it doesnt matter because he's surrounded by incredibly powerful, intelligent and accomplished family members and bannermen, he only needs to be the face and it allows them to steer scenarios in their favour, but i always bring this up: the Tyrell's are not main characters, their purpose is simply to provide immediate resources,, infantry and strength to whomever they back and having always been loyal Targaryen followers... thats all the reader needs to know.
Mace is not a genius, he's just a good son who listen to his mother lmao
Olenna is the true mind behind the roses.
@@victordz4212Olenna and soon to be heir Willas
@@victordz4212 absolutely lady Olenna is the power of house Tyrrell
He’s essentially Buggy the clown form one piece now. The face who fails upwards while supported by much powerful supporters.
This was lots of fun! Thanks for giving me the time to objectively prove Mace Tyrell is an 8D Chess Grand Champion
Mace will Fool’s Mate himself to victory!
Brilliant video. I always quote this line from the special features of season 2 Game of Thrones, when GRRM was heavily involved with the show: it is the last line of the lore video about House Tyrell, spoken by Margaery and sums up perfectly the purpose of the Tyrell family in the books:
We returned to Highgarden to manage the affairs of the Reach as we had for thousands of years... and will for a thousand more.
Other great houses take lions and wolves for their sigils and draw their power from the gold in their mountains or the cold of their winters.
But mountains run dry, winters yield to spring AND THE ROSE BLOOMS ONCE MORE
If not a 16D chess master...
These collabs are always a treat!
Laying siege is a common battle tactic but as it's not an entirely direct confrontation, despite the fact that he was literally starving out Stannis, the martial lords of Westeros don't take it as actively harming him. Great optics. So, with Robert winning, he suffered no loss to his power. But had Storm's end fallen, both of Robert's brothers would have been captured. Incredibly valuable hostages. Even if he didn't capture the castle, if the Targayens won, he'd still be considered one of their greatest allies. What sort of reward do you give such a man...?
A betrothal. Margery with Prince Aegon, or with Viserys if Aerys disinherited Rheagar's line.
I prefer the idea he just sorta stumbled into success. It happens sometimes by accident, not everyone has to be a bond villain that's 4 steps ahead of everyone with all these plots
He falls upwards. But he has actually made some good decisions throughout his life time
@@mysteryjunkie9808
For example: his listens to his mom
More like was born to success and then doing his most to not rock the boat and does the just the things he is required as a vassal.
I always thought Renly was smarter than he got credit for, and played the fool to his advantage. If it wasn’t for a dark magic he couldn’t possibly have known about, he’d have become a hugely popular king with minimal bloodshed.
I mean, everyone underestimated Wyman Manderly before the revelation of his plot in Dance.
"Renly is unfortunately killed, probably by Brienne of Tarth"
In Mace Tyrell's POV yeah
Mace didnt refuse Tywin on his own though. At first he was seriously considering saying yes, but his mom the Queen of Thorns stopped it by saying Cersei was "too old and too used"
Mace is the definition of "he's doing his best"
Like a dumb puppy. A very dumb puppy.
He’s falling upwards
@@mysteryjunkie9808
He broke the Peter Principle and created the Rule of Mace
He's the participaiton award
“The Reach is relatively in tact.”
Euron: “is that a challenge?” 😈
If Euron gets his way, it won't just be the Reach that'll suffer.
Maester super weapons unveiled at Oldtown
Surely five council members is a Tyrell Flush. Tyroyal Flush?
I like to think that he's made aware of and is actively working WITH Olenna's plans, but that he ultimately defers to her guidance.
A competent lord who is powerful due to the resources of his region and not selfsabotaging, but I'd hardly consider him a political mastermind.
The only 2 people that are better off now than they were T at the beginning are Littlefinger and Mace.
So i want to make it clear Olenna deosnt head Tyrell family
She specificly complains how is Mace idea to make Margery Queen
And Loras who make the plan to support Renly
She dint like neither of these ideas , yet she could do anything becase is Mace who is the lord
D and D really make Mace idiot and give the impression that Olenna rules the family why nothing can be futher from the truth in the books
This changed is also seen by show scenes between Olenna and Tywin , why in the books is multiple times mentioned that Tywin is having dinners with Mace and nobody else , except one time with Oberyn ( man who Mace hates)
@@niccolorichter1488, I think Olenna is at the very least exaggerating, if not outright faking, her exasperation with Mace. Despite he reputation for indiscretion she is very cunning, and it serves her well for others to underestimate her son. I think they work together behind the scenes much like Doran and Oberyn did.
Honestly not being self sabotaging might be Mace's strongest quality and what has kept his family at the top
Smart or Dumb, you gotta love him! He's so unassuming and goofy that I can't help but admire him, especially considering the schadenfreude world he lives in
I think Mace is supposed to be a criticism of people getting the credit and reward for things just because they're in power rather than the actual lesser-known people who are responsible for those things
Him standing around at Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion was 100% a power move. He, like Tywin, weren't interested in chosing any side except for the winner.
It kinda goes to show how Robert and even Joffery were right. Overall, one unified Westerosi army is what's needed for their nation to truly thrive. Less infighting, more advancements in society, tech, etc.
They're not loyal to the King or Crown, its their own self interest. They're all basically "kings" of their own Kingdoms, albeit they're more like "Petty Kings" compared to the one High King, which was often a Targaryen.
The man spends his time doing what he likes, and spent a bloody war camping out and feasting.
Sounds pretty smart to me!
It's pretty intriguing how Tyrrell in recent era being portrayed not bright while the past era as the steward they are epitome of bright mind
Secret genius or not House Peake is better they would be running The Reach at Peak Performance
Boltons should rule the North, Freys the Riverlands and Peake the Reach. The Others wouldn’t stand a damn chance
Genius or not, the perception that the Tyrells are ruled by women are undermining him in the eyes of his vassal - Randyl Tarly - who may be one of the "friends in the Reach" championing (f)Aegon's cause.
Until Faegon decides to marry Margery
nah. he is taking a dornish girl
@@eurongreyjoy1008Griff gaij nothing of value allying with the Dornish and got everything to lose if he can't sway the Tyrells to his side.
there is nothing to prove this outside of the outlandish tarly's betrayal of the show... there's more ground for the tyrell themselves being the "friends of the reach"
This dialogue format is so much fun to watch ! Another excellent video
I actually like the concept of Mace Tyrell and his Mother being a lot more coordinated in their plotting than we are led to believe. The fact that Mace, one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms actively encourages his Mother to talk shit about him at Court to make his opponents underestimate him and House Tyrell in general despite the fact they have the largest army as well as wealth second only to the Lannisters is such a GRR Martin thing to do.
Big Brain Mace, the only lord in Westeros with velcro shoes.
He's definitely an effective facesitter and planner for reasons people have already commented.
'But what about Olena? She says he's stupid!'
Well yeah, but that could easily be her being a grumpy old woman whose son isn't do exactly what she says...or it's misdirection maybe, and she's a pulling a Doran/Oberyn esque misdirection where the rose hides the thorns.
Other people point out his saying what Robb should do when he was cut off from the north is stupid...but it's then moreorless what Robb ended up planning anyway.
Interesting topic. I love Alt Schwift X and Glidus' take on this in one of Glidus' streams discussing ASoIAF theories. They theorized that Mace wore a massive helmet to protect his giant brain. I suspect he could be the Darth Jar Jar of Westeros.
The Virgin Book Reader: Mace is a oaf that has just gotten lucky
The Chad Crusader Kings Players:Mace has the Genius and Intricate Web Weaver traits.
Personally, I don't think of Mace as a huge moron; he's most likely just airheaded but competent enough to not do stupid decisions (like banning beets)
One of many inspirations of GRRM writing is a Book/miniseries of BBC called "I, Claudius", where the main character is emperor Claudius (played by Derek Jacobi) was a lame stuttering pathetic man who was abused and shunned by almost entire family, but here the thing, Claudius was acting his disabilities (it's noting that he born with this problems but a same time, he make this disabilities even worse than looks like), and so thanks of that nobody thinks Claudius was actually a threat and not even noteworthy for the title Augustus/Emperor of Roman empire, and so he survived disguising himself as "harmless nobody", he survived against the schemes and treachery of his own family, likes of ambitious and treacherous grandmother (Livia, wife of emperor Octavian Augustus), paranoid and aggressive uncle (emperor Tiberius), and his violent and crazy nephew (emperor Caligula). It's a great book/miniseries everyone should watch or read.
I never thought he was an idiot, just pompous. On top of all the points others are making, when we see him organize troops to march on the high sparrows i got the impression that there was serious military coordination and discipline by their lock-step formations. I know Jaimie rolled his eyes at the “madness has had its day!” Speech, but i liked it, and personally i think that his flattering and arrogant personality detract from the perception of his logistical mind.
Interesting video. I side more with Quinn on this [9:30 - 10:04] but fantasyhaven's presence was a fun addition and thank you both for your efforts on this video 👍🏾
Mace the Ace!
Right? Dude always been "him" 😅 he's been killing it for years
I missed your last sopranos post so here's a couple:
What kind of animal gets poisoned at his own wedding?
Quaithe, Daenerys... she even exist?
In this house Lomas Longstrider is a hero. End of story!
2:28 I smile ear to ear, listening to that. Really King Who Cares. STANNIS!!! STANNIS!!! STANNIS!!!🏇🏇🏇
I burst out laughing at 3:40, the idea of Mace just being afk for 20 years is so funny
i love seeing you guys collab! great video!
This theory (though I'm not sure if I believe it) would make Mace a reflection of Littlefinger, in that instead of just the in-book characters all being fooled by him, we the readers were fooled. Both use "feign incompetence" to trick people into trusting them, Petyr coming from small beginnings and Mace being an Oaf.
Another great collab video. Would love to see you guys do a livestream with InDeepGeek
Mace Tyrell is the George W. Bush of Westeros.
I love your videos- also the tyrells I really hope they live
He's still alive is what he is. And that's a win
I mean whether it was Mace‘s or Olenna‘s doing, the Tyrells definitely played their cards right, and have managed to benefit massively from the Lannister‘s self-sabotage.
Yeah, sure, being Lords of the Reach is a pretty good power base, but you don‘t win the Game of Thrones by default, and what is won can be easily lost. When the events started, the Tyrells were not in a dominant position among the Great Houses. Careful maneuvering or not, their side lost during the Rebellion and despite Robert being pretty cool about it, his time on the throne was very much marked by the Houses that won him the throne: Baratheons, Lannisters, and Arryns or their Bannermen dominated the government and Houses Stark and Tully undoubtedly still had personal ties to Robert. When it came to war, it was always Eddard and Stannis that Robert turned to.
So that was the Situation before the clash of kings. At the end of it, the Tyrells have almost all the power in King‘s landing. And I don‘t think you can chalk this up to sitting things out or winning by default. The War of Five kings is a fairly complex political and military conflict, on par with the 30 Years War, or the Sengoku Jidai. You don‘t win at those just because of luck or you happened to have some power before. Look at how the Tyrell‘s erstwhile allies have fared: Renly is dead. The Lannisters imploded. And the other contenders for the crown have also fallen. The Starks, Tullys and Baratheons are basically removed from the political map and their holdings given to other houses.
It doesn‘t really matter who is the brains of House Tyrell, they clearly outplayed their rivals. And they can still come out on top later on: if Aegon‘s campaign is successful they are perfectly placed to ditch Tommen and offer to wed Margaery to Young Griff. He gets King‘s Landing without lossesnand Mace‘s Grandchildren still end up on the Iron Throne (if not for Daenaerys etc).
I think one thing that stands out about the Tyrells is that, like Eddard‘s and Doran‘s families, they stick together. The Tyrells don‘t sabotage each other like the Lannisters and Baratheons, they play on the same team the whole time and don‘t lose sight of the big picture over petty grievances. Imagine if Tywin or Stannis had a gay son, the resulting generational trauma would have been visible from orbit. But not everyone is like that: Loras gets to do his thing, his relationship with Renly leads to a pretty good political alliance for them; Renly can‘t marry a dude, no problem for Mace who also has a daughter, Renly can marry her as a beard (and for heirs) and everyone is apparently happy. No one getting traumatized, murdered in the toilet or framed for regicide.
Everyone gets to do their thing. I bet if Mace had a dwarf for a son who happened to be pretty good at this politics thing, his family would not have ended up trying to murder him.
i'd say he is cleverer then he looks or lets on, waiting at Storms end and sending a force under Randyll Tarly to chase Robert out of the Reach is a good move, he loses little, makes himself look loyal to crown by sending a army to stop Robert, and yet by simply laying siege and allowing feasts and tourneys outside storms end if the rebellion wins, then he hasn't pissed them off by killing the new kings brothers and taking Storms end.
He also is wise enough to suspect Robert Strong and is able to correctly realise if he sends all his forces to the Reach to fight the ironborn, take Dragonstone and march on Aegon, then his daughter will be defenceless and likely her trial will be rigged, so he makes a smart move to vow not to go unless his daughter wins her trial, thus ensuring if Cersei or the faith try anything he's got a big army able to quickly take the city.
But he's still not that bright, nowhere near Olenna or Tywin.
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. He's not a supergenius, but he's not an idiot. He got some lucky cards and played them adequately. I do think his mother is the "woman behind the man", but he's wise enough to listen to her and maybe plays up his own stupidity a bit.
Mace is the epidome of circumstance. He was born in the right place with the right station with the right name. He never did wrong, while simultaneously remaining unremarkable. Murphies law dictates he wins through established advantage, rather than skill. The man assumes his success and seems innocent to the benefit of those more devious around him who keep him in their best interest. The man lives a perfectly cultivated life.
I does seem like Mace & the Golden Roses are experts at ‘unmerited’ advancement. The effect seems to be that objection to their newly acquired primacies is never widespread.
if mace turns out to be a genius, i will immediately assume that willas just pretends he cannot walk
Imagine Wilias being Margery champion in her trial by combat. The High Sparrow laughing their asses of them he just sprints towards their champion and kills him in one shot
@@mysteryjunkie9808 and then getting back in the wheelchair, claiming it was divine intervention that allowed him to use his legs briefly. people think the gods ensure that the side who is right will win in trial by combat, so this would seem like the ultimate proof.
He is a dark lord of the siths, just like jar jar binks
"All the wealth of the Reach cannot buy us neutrality, Mother!" Father snapped. "The Lannisters are to our east and west, Renly and Dorne to our south, the Arryns and the wolves to our north. All of them will look to the Reach for support, and the moment we raise our banners for one the others will fall on us like vultures. We are too wealthy to stay above the fray for long and not strong enough to fight when beset on all sides. Every time House Tyrell has tried to stay out of the crown's disputes, the war is inevitably fought at our gates, and every time that happens, with every drop of Reachman blood spilled our hold on Highgarden slips that little bit more." He scowled ferociously at the maps strewn about the table. "History tells us that the Reach may be players in the game, or they may be the playing field. The riverlands had that choice taken from them, and where are the river kings now? It's really that simple, Mother. Choosing to be players carries a risk and you might call it foolish-you may even be right. But I say that pretending to be above it all and losing our bannermen by oath or sword one by one is a hundredfold times more foolish! I will not be the lord who sees the name Tyrell go into the rubbish pile like the Teagues or the Justmans, nor will I see the Gardener's kingdom sundered by a rabble of bloody Stormlanders or Westermen!"
-Mace Tyrell, The Westerosii Vol 2
Meanwile Mace presenting himself at the battle of the Blacwater with more soliders than Tywin and Stannis combined
What is this westerosii ?
Do you have a link ?
Mace isn't some mastermind, but he's smart and level-headed enough to get out of his own way. Which is arguably a more valuable trait to have.
Great video indeeed thank u
A genius playing as a fool in the chess game of life.
Yeah, Mace telling Tywin ""F*** No!" No one wants to risk marrying that psycho of Cersei
He has to draw the line somewhere.
@@mysteryjunkie9808 True, and we found the line where Mace draws it
6:24 Of course Mace knows, but Mace sees a huge opportunity. He eliminates Tyrion, the competent Lannister child who could discover his plans, and appeases both Tywin and Cersei, giving the Tyrell’s more favor and trust.
Well well well! I came into this happy for a new video and ready to laugh! Now I have a new found respect for Lord Mace! Mace the MF Lace! Geez
Mace the Ace is not an idiot, I think he's the type of person that if given a task he should be able to accomplish then he'll accomplish it reasonably well, he won't screw things up or waste an advantage. However I also think he is not extraordinary and if given a task where he should not be able to accomplish it then he won't accomplish it and that his isn't smart or skilled enough to overcome being at a disadvantage.
For example he could be trusted to lead a stronger army against a weaker one and he'll probably prevail. However if he has the weaker army then he'll lose. Or as long as his house is an advantageous spot he'll lead it reasonably well, but if (when) things start going wrong, advantages start being lost he'll lead his house to disaster.
He's likely not moving very fast against Aegon for the same reasons he was slow against Robert and in the War of the Five Kings: he's leaving the possibility of a new alliance open. Aegon is unmarried. Margaery is only betrothed to Tommen, not yet married. Lannisters are dropping like flies in the capital, and the most powerful Lannisters are currently in the Riverlands subduing a guerilla band of outlaws. If the winds change, Mace can secure an alliance with Aegon via Margaery and throw open the gates to the Golden Company. It also happens that his unwed eldest son is close in age to the unwed daughter of Doran Martell. This is a bit of a stretch, but could the friendship between Oberyn and Willas have brought the families closer together, only keeping up the appearance of being bitter rivals to throw off their other enemies?
Honestly Rhaeghar should have commanded Mace to lend him Randyll Tarly and parts of his forces when he and the Dornish army was marching through the Stormlands towards the Trident. That would have tipped the balance in his favour against Robert, the garrison in Storm’s End were not strong enough to mount a counter attack against even 1/4 the power of the Reach, so it was dumb of Rhaeghar to leave all these soldiers at Storm’s End doing nothing. Also the most advantageous marriage alliance for Daenerys would be Willas Tyrell when she returns to Westeros, because as Petyr Baelish said if you’re going to fight Lannister you want to befriend Tyrells. Of course this is assuming that the books follow the show and have Margaery die at the Great Sept of Baelor.
First time seeing Margaerys depiction by artist TheMico.
Goddamn.
Dont know about the books but the show did that man dirty.
It would be great if you make a video about the Brienne killing Renly theory
It takes the wise man to play the fool.
Though in this case, no, his actions at the seige of storms end show him as pompus and full of himself.
If anyway dangerous a player varys would have him included more in his web.
The best friendship in the fandom
He will have a word with his daughter
this is Little Carmine (from The Sopranos) all over again...
Mace wears all those enormous hats to hide his big brain
Mace the ace slander shall not be tolerated
To be fair Tyrells became a great house of Westeros thanks to Targaryens so it would be logic if they supported them during the Robert Rebellion. On the other hand, the Tullys didnt doubt to side with the rebels despite Targaryens being their main benefactors.
I don't think he is a genius, but i don't think he is stupid. He might be smarter in a way that Westeros doesn't value in the hyper masculine environment, like for example managing resources, something that from what we knows he does masterfully to win without losing any of his soldiers. he seems smart enough to surround himself with a great council, the ability to listen to others opinions especially for someone that has grown with such privileges is telling. And even as a battle tactician sure he isn't the best of the best but the siege of Stormends isn't far off from Tywin capturing Kings landing just less risky and cruel, and in nearer times he did pretty much correctly anticipate Robb's action if it wasn't for the red wedding.
Overall to me, with my 21th century mindset, he sounds better than many praised lord, he doesn't spill unnecessary blood, he values resources and listen to advices. He might have done nothing of fame in 20 years but the reach is thriving under his rule and all of his children are respected, popular and with their own talents. I'm sure Olenna might have something to do with it but an elderly woman can't do everything, plus it really doesn't fit with what the Tyrells approach seems to be, the Tyrells are portrayed as being the other side of the same coin of the Lannister with a major difference being they trust and love each other, they aren't a one man or woman show like the Lannister, they work together. Olenna as this one and only all mighty figure that fandoms lobe to portray her as in the family to me simply doesn't fit, so yeah Mace to me simply might not be the best at those most obvious expected things
he just doesnt want to die
Made the Ace is just about the only Great Lord of Westeros still in power since the start of AGOT save only Doran Martell, a truly rarified duopoly of genius and luck
So i want to make it clear Olenna deosnt head Tyrell family
She specificly complains how is Mace idea to make Margery Queen
And Loras who make the plan to support Renly
She dint like neither of these ideas , yet she could do anything becase is Mace who is the lord
D and D really make Mace idiot and give the impression that Olenna rules the family why nothing can be futher from the truth in the books
This changed is also seen by show scenes between Olenna and Tywin , why in the books is multiple times mentioned that Tywin is having dinners with Mace and nobody else , except one time with Oberyn ( man who Mace hates)
It is strange how explicit the books are about this, and how none of the Lore experts seem to mention this. I feel almost gaslit. Like, I'm SURE there was a passage in one of the books where Olenna says something like: "I said this was all too dangerous, but Mace just went 'tsk tsk, don't worry about it'" or something like that.
Mace is the boss of the family, Olenna is just damage control
@@Yang-ob4lk Sansa I. In Storm , Olenna complains about Mace
@@niccolorichter1488 Thank you!
Good luck at Law School! I hope that you have time to drink some fiercely strong cider with your classmates ;)
Bro would be runnin around like a chicken with his head cut off if it wasn’t for Olenna
Mace is kind of like the Little Carmine of asoiaf, for all my fellow Sopranos fans
Yes but notice how Little Carmine made it to the end and was better off than say Johnny Sac or Phil Leotard trying to play the game. Carmine one the game by not playing it
"Renly was eventually killed, probably by Brienne of Tarth" and now my neighbors are awake. And storming around downstairs becuase i loudly blurted out in deep laughter (LBOIDL'd) at that one. That vile woman! The god's may grace a father with daughters, or with sons, or truly bless them with loads of both, but only cruel gods would curse a father with... her. And whatever it SHE is exactly.
(y'all agree she didn't kill him, right? Cat killed him. It is known. Cat said something characteristically stupid, selfish, entitled and all around pretentious and unwise, and renly was forced to stab at the words as they floated in midair. THat's my theory, anyway)
The HBO series doesn't do justice (read: terribly dumbs down) great secondary characters like Mace Tyrell and Kevan Lannister. Mace might not be the greatest political mastermind (unless when working in tandem with her mother) but he knows how to play his part to perfection... and also, he's probably the best economist/accountant in all of Westeros.
Littlefinger poisoned jofrey
Mace tyrell best maiden. Change my mind
Randal tarley is one of maces bannermen so yeah he did win
How dare you even sugest that Mace the ace is a moron!
It's a bit of both I'd reckon
According to tywin when talking to tyrion mace tyrell wasn't against willis marrying cersei until olenna shot down the marriage offer saying cersei is too old
Thank you. People seem to forget how influential she is in his decision making
but that could definitely be part of the act to further make it some like hes a fool who has to only listen to his mother
Perhaps the Tyrell’s remained loyal to the Targaryens because they pretty much owed their house existing to Aegon and his sisters during the conquest
No , they didn't remain loyal to them ,they enter the war because Robert invade their land , unprovoke, they defeat him but not follow him ,they siege Storm's End but didn't storm it ( that is a likebale sentence )
House baratheon and Tully also "own " their house existing to the targs , but they fight against them, because people are not a monolyte ,and the king can't do whatever he wants
The Tyrells probably dont like the mad King either but Robert force them in the war
The battle of blood might end with Willis dying at the burning of high garden while Garlen joining the kings guard only to die in a trial by combat .
When your enemy is making a mistake do not interrupt him! - Napoleon Bonaparte
Likewise, when your enemy underestimates you, let them! Pretending to be stupid and causing others to believe you is not a bad political strategy
I love the Tyrells, a lot of that is because of the show, especially Margaery and Olenna, but I honestly think Mace isn’t as stupid as everyone makes him out to be and was done a bit dirty in the show, especially season 5. I mean he has went through two wars with his army being relatively unaffected, and has been Hand of the King for two kings. Neither are the one true king, but nobody’s perfect. Having said that making your preteen son joust in a tourney with the likes of the Red freaking Viper wasn’t his best decision.
So, Lord Tyrell is master of procrastination
No, that will be Martin
Let's go
please make the two voices at the same level of volume, the second is to low or the first too high and I have to change the volume,
This is a Mace Tyrell W
I mean it should be clear who Mace was when you analyze the battle of Ashford after all any learned man would clearly recognize such greatness after all as a certain man once clearly stated the words ‘Veni Vidi Vinci’ are a personal achievement and thus a clear parallelism equating both figures
When people give credit to Lord Tarly or Lady Olenna or the Reach in general, it just shows that he is a good delegator. He's not an idiot but secret genius is a stretch.
Mace as a genius is hilarious. Cheers guys!
What's strange is that he is stupid and incompetent but he has incredibly smart and competent kids. Maergery is clever and ambitious in the books, Garlan is a good military commander, a great warrior and it seems he has a lot of emotional intelligence the way he spoke with tyrion and he compliments him for his strategies during the blackwater, willas tyrell has impressed oberyn so that should say something (I think oberyn respects his intelligence or something I don't remember) and loras is probably the best tourney knight in all of westeros. So as seemingly stupid as mace is, he did a great job raising those kids or maybe his wife and/or his mother should get the thanks for that.
But stupid compare to who ?
Lets compare him with other lords of his rank
Ned Stark as hand : no attention to the business of the state, let his child to climb the walls , take Arya in Kings Landing, tell Cersei to take Tywin and run to Essos, trust Littlefinger
Mace as hand : make a new small council from his banarmants , double the city watch with his own soliders ,feed the population, built a new tower of the hand , surond Tommen with his own child, nephews and nieces to gain his trust
I could make a comparison with Doran Martell also
@@flavius5722 I forgot about that part where he replaced the small council men loyal to him so yeah you're right. He's definitely a better player at the game of thrones than ned that's for sure. Maybe there is something beneath the surface. 1 thing is for sure tho he did raise gifted children.
If anything olena is the genius mastermind
The Tyrells always gave me the vibe of having the hearts of the Starks with the brains of the Lannister's
How far will their heart go in an alliance.
Their decent people but opportunistic in my opinion.
I wouldn’t say heart of the Starks but I think they actually love their family members unlike the Lannisters.