The first detachable magazine rifle: the .45-70 Remington-Lee Navy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2023
- Detachable magazines. Black powder .45-70 cartridges. Bolt action. With one foot in the old black powder era, and one foot in the modern age of firearms design, the Remington-Lee Navy remains one of the most influential rifle designs in history, and is the ancestor of virtually every modern firearm with a magazine. And it’s possibly the coolest black powder rifle ever.
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I remember the days when my only source for gun knowledge was the History Channel. They talked about how the US fell behind in military arms because of crusty old generals who refused to get with the times. Once I got into guns and reading books, I read one on the Krag. It mentioned how every bullet on the western frontier was at the end of a thousand mile supply chain. It went on the break down the costs in getting a bullet from the factory to a soldier out west. Suddenly it made a lot more sense to keep single shot rifles around.
"The US fell behind in military arms"......
huh? Isn't this rifle American? First of it's kind
@@joeblow8379 Yes. This was an advanced rifle for its time, but it was not the standard issue. The standard issue US Army rifle was the single shot .45-70 Springfield until the 1890s. US Army volunteers were still carrying it in the war with Spain in 1898. The US military didn't catch up to the rest of the world until around WWI.
@@joeblow8379 The USA played catch up until roughly 1920, those are facts.
Apparently the Spanish American War changed that, then prior to WW1, the US was busy modernizing. Of course they did have a machine gun fielded at the time to their credit.
@@TheLegitAlpha It took them a lot of time to go from frontier supply lines to full blown standardized factories, hence my "catch up" comment.
Guns like this would have been great to add to red dead online . It’s such a shame they could have added so many cool historical firearms.
I’ve never played it. Don’t have time. But I’m getting deployed and will probably have a lot of down time when I’m bored to death, and might check it out. Isn’t it a few years old now?
@@papercartridges6705 Yeah but RDR2 still holds up with it's insane attention to detail. The beginning is pretty slow though.
5 years old but still looks great, it is a prequel to red dead redemption 1. The story is better if you don't know the plot of the older game because then you don't know who survives red dead 2.
If you like that kinda concept, you should check out the mini-series "Streets of Laredo". The plot kinda revolves around the use of a cutting edge weapon of the time (Schmidt Rubin) and it's revolutionary advantage.
Came for the paper cartridges, stayed for a metallic cartridge repeater I've been fascinated by since I first read about it as a boy.
What is this outrage? A channel called paper cartridges, shooting brass cased ammo? This is the largest outrage since Cap and Ball shooting a flintlock!
Love your videos man, keep it up! 😊
YESS more Lee designs please! He was so ahead of his time, he strikes me as an inventor that actually shot alot and understood what made guns good, work, and ergonomic
Brett, I am green with envy. A Remington Lee has been on my wish list for years. Great video!
Picked up one of these within the year. No military markings but had a rack number. I just got my third magazine for it. I love using this in competitions and everyone who tried it thought it was a nice handling rifle.
One of my dream guns. Save for the cartridge, this rifle would have fit right in up to the middle of WW2 when autoloaders took over Lee knew how to do bolt-handles as evidenced here and with the Enfield. Way ahead of it's time with the magazine too, remembering that Mauser, Mannlicher and various tubular magazine systems were all vying for the top-dog position. Would love one proofed for smokeless!
The favoured by far action that was morphed into the British Lee Metford of 1888. The ease of which the bolt is manipulated stands out in your shootjng demonstration.
I’d love a reproduction of this fire arm . Sadly I don’t think they make one
I own a Remington Lee with bayonet and the Remington Lee sporter version as well. Great weapons!
45-70 is my favorite round.
Just love the total enthusiasm for the rifle Brett, what's not to like about it! Thanks for sharing 😀😀😀
If they made that rifle brand new again at a reasonable price, I would buy one. It would make a nice deer rifle.
Gorgeous. I missed one of these last year on sale, beaks my heart
Thanks, again. Very informative as always.
Absolutely amazing! Keep up the good work boys.
Coolest rifle I've seen in a while, thanks for sharing!
This is one of the coolest things I have ever seen. I knew about the 6mm Lee Navy but never knew about this one. Too bad you can't rrally find a detachable magazine bolt action in 45-70 nowadays considering the continued popularity of the round.
Just found your channel. Really dig it. Awesome guns and a good history lesson on every one so far. Keep up the good work brother. Subbed!
Absolutely love your videos. Very well presented!
Thank you very much!
.45-70 in a long barrel be like "imma gonna go and vibe check yo plaaaaaaaates!"
That's one of the best bolt action rifles ever made remington always made a good rifle back n the day
Another awesome vid, Thank You. An amazingly avantgarde action and magazine design for the period, Go Navy!
Well let’s not quite go all the way to say Go Navy….
yes... I apologize, I was caught up in the exuberance of the moment.
Once again the Navy proves its relative smarts over the Army by adopting modern repeating rifles long before the Army with its primitive and hilarious single shot trapdoor
@@chairzombie8378 Let's not get carried away giving swabbies credit for IQ points they ain't got.
Now that is a quaint firearm.
Thank you for the video.
Oh man I would love to have one of those
It is so much fun. I wish I had more magazines. They are scarce and not cheap.
Britain: "this is the finest rifle we've ever seen, I'll buy it and have it be our new standard issue rifle"
James Paris Lee: "Excellent, how many spare magazines would you like per rifle?"
Britain: "Spare magazines?"
Pretty much exactly how it went down!
Very cool vid! Thanks.
Great review and history lesson 👍
Love the History, Thankyou
Excellent discourse on a fascinating rifle that almost made history.
I am a proud owner of a no. 4 mark 1/3 lee Enfield 303 it is in mint condition and was FTR October 1953 my brother has a 1944 no. 1 mark 3* Lithgow lee Enfield they are hands down the best bolt action 10 round magazine very fast relode firearms
This must've been something else in those days before smokeless propellants were introduced. Must've been a heck of a time to be alive.
Imagine if this had replaced the Trapdoor Springfield for the Spanish American war. Of course in that case we probably would have had a Lee action based smokeless powder rifle instead of the Krag. I feel that the decisions that were made with the Krag in US service really let that actions potential down, design a stripper clip system for it and at least give it back it's emergency 2nd lug if not a real 2nd lug that either the Danish or Norwegian krags were upgraded to.
@robertlewis8295 I mean it probably wouldn't have changed much? The Spanish Mausers were using smokeless 7mm rounds the shot flatter and outranged the US troops that still had the .45-70 Blackpowder Trapdoor Springfields, the Krags fared better but still suffered from the lack of stripper clips. So if anything they could've exacerbated the issue of feeling outgunned if ALL the troops lacked more advanced smokeless cartridges.
@@robertlewis8295Remember that the Lee Enfield wasn't that good of a rifle until 1905 with the SMLE. The best choice at the time would have been to adopt the 1893 or 1895 Mauser, in effect getting the 1903 Springfield 10 years early.
Very Cool how your Bolt work gets Faster with Each Shot!
Single aimed shots even with a repeating rifle are always best supported with one or two machine gun groups in my humble opinion . Nice rifle and I agree the 45/70 is a beast of a round with a solid lead 600 grain bullet 👍
Semper Fi.
@@septembersurprise5178 respect to USMC serving and ex service personnel 🫡
I choose to believe that this rifle is what the song ‘The Future of Warfare’ is about.
Outstanding! Something each semi auto rifle guy should know. Very interesting.
Love the music too.
Great video & info. New subscriber.
I want one!! That sounds good.
I needs one of these
The fact that this came out in 1879 and it was adopted by the Navy drives me bananas....The Army didn't adopt a bolt action until 1892...
Granted the role of the Navy in the 19th century involved alot more ship to ship boarding and armed landing/securing parties than today, so a high cap repeater does make sense.
Plus the Navy is smarter
The black powder that they use back then was actually better than what we have now I would not be hesitant using 70 grains of Swiss 2f. The powder back then was made everyday for many many years. And after 18 12in around about that time the powder made great improvements from the colonial days.
You’re absolutely right and it’s a pity that we don’t know what good powder is today, we have to settle for what is available. But Swiss is very good, not quite as good as the best English powders historically, but close enough. I get velocities nearly matching historic measurements.
I have a Remington-Lee, M1884 Chinese supply in .43 Spanish ( 11mm Remington Spanish) with Diss Patent magazine...partial insertion of magazine acts as cut-off. Pressing mag fully in activates magazine fee.
My rifle was captured at TakuForts ,( 1900 BoxerRebellion) by Australian ( Victorian Volunteer Naval Contingent) and brought back and used as a DRILL Rifle in Victoria until surplussed by 1920s...still functional.
A friend had another, but in .45/70, also Boxer origins. My R-L is marked " Lee Ming Ton" Shanghai Go Down xxxx in Chinese characters referring to the Shanghai importer warehouse.
( "go down"... a warehouse with a sunken floor, giving an overall lower profile, especially for Arms and Ammunition stores.
" Go Down" is still used in HongKong English to describe warehouses.
DocAV
A note on logistics with the supply of ammunition. The Lee-Metford was adopted by the British in 1888 and was still black powder. People wonder why the British stuck with using a magazine cut-off even into the era of the Lee-Enfield. Logistics would seem to be the answer. The British were fighting all over Africa, in India and China so logistics is likely why the magazine cut off remained
And a reserve always ready to deal with a cavalry charge.
We had a sporterized Lee Navy 1889 in .30-40 when I was in my early teens. My dad sold it at a gun show. Wish I knew what I knew just a few years after when I started collecting, especially since my focus is turn of the century and WW1 rifles.
Glorious!😊
Great rifle too, what a sweet heart!
I use 55 grains of 2F with thick lube felt and 405 RNFP
I use 50 gn 2f and filler (cream of wheat) make up the charge. Lee HB 405. Like you said a hoot to take to the range
The US Navy was way ahead of the US Army by the mid 1880s till the 1890s. The Blue Jackets and Marines had great firepower, that's amazing.
Navy and Marine raids with "advanced" weapons the army snubbed their nose at always will make me fucking giggle
The contemporary Mannlicher M1885 was also black powder with the en-bloc Mannlicher system which may not have been a detachable magazine but was a one action reload with a bloc of 5 rounds. Empty and repeat.
Lee bolts make good black powder rifles with the rear lugs out of the way of the fouling. Hence the same for the Schmidt Rubin M1889, which was smokeless of course but designed initially to take a hollow pellet solid black powder round.
Mannlicher system wasn't good in any remotely dirty conditions due to the opening slot on the bottom of the mag (for the empty clip to fall through) making it easy for dirt and debris to accumulate inside it. The clip system also wasn't optimized for reusability since the clips automatically fell onto the ground once empty, and the magazine was impossible to load without a clip, which turned it into a very awkward to load single shot rifle.
All of these issues didn't really exist in the remmington-lee. Which had a detachable magazine that you could just leave in the gun and single load/stripper clip load if you had no spare mags available. If you wanted to load and fire one round at a time (popular method back then) you could just drop a loose round on the top of the empty magazine's follower and close the bolt. Super simple and easy to use. Unlike the mannlicher system which required you to literally push the single loose round directly into the chamber because otherwise it would just fall into the clipless internal magazine and snag up. The action was also fully sealed which made it much more reliable in dirty conditions
@@Gameprojordan Indeed it had faults but was used by major armies for decades and changed eventually into a top ejector to avoid any dirt ingress. The clips were simple light pressings and disposable, albeit often reloaded in practice.
If you haven't done so already you need to check out Drachenfel's Channel. He was showing that there are two units still using bolt action rifles one Canadian & one Danish that are stationed in Arctic territories. The reason is that Bolt Actions are apparently more reliable in extreme cold conditions. The Danish unit is still using Remington 1917 pattern rifles. I like the idea of a detachable mag fed 45-70. So far, the only other Bolt Action 45-70 I have seen is the Navy Arms conversion of the "Siamese Mauser".
Yep I am a Drachnifel fan already! Great channel.
That is a beautiful looking rifle, I'd love to fire one of those 😮
If I am correct, the 45-70 was introduced into US Army service in two versions for the "Trapdoor" Springfields. One was with the 405 grain bullet (with a 55 grain powder charge) intended for the "Trapdoor " Springfield Cavalry Carbine. The 2nd was with a 500 grain bullet (with a 70 grain powder charge) intended for the "Trapdoor" Springfield Infantry Rifle. The Trapdoor" rifle could handle either version. The "Trapdoor" Carbine was known to have problems with the 500 grain version. Later on in it's service, the 405 grain bullet was used for both Infantry & Cavalry use.
Nice rifle
Lee’s Trials and Tribulations are interesting. I’ve spent a fair amount of time studying the 1892 Trials and the army’s response to Lee’s improvements were, shall we say, less than enthusiastic. Amazing the US Army didn’t adopt a detachable box magazine till 80 some years later with the M14! (Ignoring the M1 Carbine, etc)
That's exactly what I was thinking. Why go for the Krag when you had this revolutionary weapon? Probably the high brass was way too conservative.
@@nocturnalrecluse1216Military brass up until recently have always been slow to adopt new innovations. Mostly due to their understanding of combat doctrine.
Why does it make sense to ignore the M1 carbine. It was the most produced American rifle of WWII!
Two reasons, first it was not adopted as a mainline infantry rifle, the role the Lee was considered for. Second, because my grandfather hated them. They were great to carry, but according to him, lacking in lethality. @@hux2000
@@hux2000 Because it wasn't a standard service rifle? It was designed for rear troops to use as a lightweight alternative to the Thompson SMG. This would've been around when .45-70 was the standard US government cartrige (before being replaced by the .30-40 Krag in 1892)
Mug-dumps with the cool kids and their AR's 😂
My favorite bolt action system with my favorite black powder cartridge, I’m in love! Where did you happen to find one?
Geez it was several years ago, probably one of the auction sites.
Magazine loaded rifle make sense on a boat.
New to me, nice 👍
I came looking for Fudd’s and I found them. 😊
Who wouldn't want a bolt action 45-70!!!!
Fun fact: The Remington -Lee design was strong enough for smokeless powder, the British copied the bolt, made the rear lug stout and they used stainless steel on the pins. And the magazine was copied too.
Dangit Brett, you're not supposed to talk about these until I get my hands on one!
17:02 I think I recall reading that the 7.62 converted No4T rifles were used in the first Gulf war. So some 120 years after this rifle sailed into view 😁
On the third day god created the remington bolt action rifle so man could fight the dinosaurs...
James Paris Lee should get more renown for his contributions to firearms. Several of his inventions (notably the Lee Enfield, Lee Navy 1895, and this) saw military service and had some features a bit ahead of their time.
15:00 ... also, the Navy doesn't need to worry about ammunition logistics as much as the Army. A ship can carry tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition for these rifles if needed as they sail the Seven Seas. They could technically have a reloading station aboard as well (not that they did, but the potential is there). One simply has more room in the holds of a ship to carry needed supplies and munitions. The Army cannot have such munition storage follow them around on the plains and in the mountains.
This explains the difference in top brass mentality regarding the rate of fire the rifleman will perform. Army, as you stated, has a more difficult time getting supplies to their troops. Aboard a Navy ship, the ship itself holds all the supplies/munitions everywhere the sailors travel. Two entirely different paradigms.
I just got lucky pick up a CVA LEE ENFIELD SML 3 45'70 CONVERSON LOOKING FOWARD TO DEER SEASON NOW
I learned so much today about this rifle which I knew nothing about other thanthe Name, and the fact it was a bolt action rifle. Thank you so much. Question: I load my smokeless 45-70 Pedersoli Buffalo rifle and a sporterized (shortened) trapdoor rifle with the appropriate ( to BP pressures) load of 4198 powder and the 405 grn. bullet. Would the Remington-Lee rifle be able to handle that load too? Did the USMC also use this rifle like the Naval Infantry photo shown in the video?
I’m not sure if the marines used this rifle. I would imagine they probably did, if shipboard, and the warship had been issued these rifles. As for smokeless powder, I would be a little hesitant since this isn’t really the strongest action, and the stock is made to handle gentle BP recoil but may not hold up well to sharper smokeless loads. It should handle a BP substitute though.
Yes, there is at least one photo of US Marines (not bluejackets) ashore in Hawaii with Remington-Lees in 1893
I know you know this, since you mentioned it in your earlier video, but the 1879 version of this same gun had a removable box magazine, as did the 1882. Wasn't the 1885 the third iteration? I was just a little confused by the way you phrased it in your video this time. (at 0:25 into the video). I very much enjoyed watching you shoot this. You have a beautiful example of it, btw. I love how the magazines seem to still function perfectly after almost 140 years!
You should try out a Remington rolling block
That Lee fellow had more impact on small arms than the limited number of 1885 repeaters in .45-70. As mentioned in the video, there was the Lee-Enfield and the millions equipping the British Empire from the beginning of the smokeless powder era well into the 1950's--with some examples equipping second-line Indian troops up to the 1990's.
The 6mm Lee Navy is an interesting rifle and one mission was shooting up enemy torpedo boats.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1895_Lee_Navy
Pay attention to the magazine system. The Lee Navy had a fixed magazine that was loaded with a clip--the whole thing was shoved into the rifle and when the first round was chambered, the clip was ejected from the bottom of the magazine.
The Lee Navy is the rifle on the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal.
Not “ejected from the bottom” so much as “uncoupled from the rounds as you load it”. It seems to shimmy its way off the rims and fall out from the recoil of the first round or two
@@TenaciousTrilobite Thanks. This illustrates the differences between book learnin' and hands-on experience. When I saw a 6mm Lee rifle on the firing line, the owner/shooter only loaded loose cartridges, no clip. Another time a shooter/owner had a Krag and was upset that his rifle wasn't feeding from the magazine. I am a range safety officer at my county's public rifle range, but I suggested flipping the magazine cut-off because the US M1892 Krag had reversed the direction of the "off" position sometime during its decade of production and I didn't know which switch was which. Fixed the problem. The Lee had no magazine cut-off because loading a clip of five rounds was as rapid as loading one cartridge. The Krag and Springfield were designed to work as single-shot breechloading rifles with a magazine in reserve for rapid fire during "emergencies." Unfortunately, not all gun books are written by people who have actually handled the guns themselves--sometimes they haven't even read the operator's manuals used to train riflemen.
Where do you find cool rifles like this?
Beautiful gun. I’m sure it won’t have any problems at 300 yards and beyond.
Super cool rifle,I want one ,but today I'll have to be satisfied with the pound of reloder 7 I got for 20 bucks...score!
It's said at the navy college Annapolis, they have this same rifle, but in .43 Spanish on display.
.43 Spanish was a popular chambering for commercial and export variants of the Remington-Lee. It’s possible that example is a Chinese contract example captured during the Boxer Rebellion
Looks like the muzzle blast from my Colt Walker clone. I load it with 55 grains of fff Goex black powder and.458 round ball
The position of the bolt handle with respect to the trigger when the bolt is closed seems similar to the Lee Enfield 303 (SMLE). Have you tried shooting Remington-Lee Navy they way the Brits do in the mad minute? They operate the bolt with thumb and first finger and fire with the middle finger. Thumb and first finger never leave the bolt handle.
I love the clean, elegant, simple lines and profile of the stock. How great would it be to have something unpretentious like this that just takes STANAG mags?
Not to give any hints to Bubbas… but take a .308 Ishapore Enfield, and machine it to accept M-14 magazines, and voila! Which I’m sure somebody has done.
@@papercartridges6705
it indeed has been done.... saw one at a shoot in TX where a bloke had converted two ... one in 308 w/M14 mags and another 303 version that had been converted to take 1911 mags and shot 45acp....
.MrEric
History rifle!
Oh, Brett, Rob is leading you astray. What's next, a Bren gun?
Well, not yet…. Maybe when I want to get into long range sniping.
Ah yes, the Bren sniping configuration. The ignorance, it burns.@@papercartridges6705
Nice reference @@papercartridges6705
@@papercartridges6705 heyo
Outstanding! Where did you get it and can it shoot modern loads?
No, these rifles pre-date smokeless powder
As a Lee action nut omfg 🤤
Me over here jealous with my M1884 Trapdoor.
Drool!
I would like to a have replica of that rifle.
Damn I cringed when he ejected that ancient Magazine onto the ground ! I had forgotten that rifle even existed, he must have some great connections to get a shootable specimen.
Don’t worry, it is soft grass and these magazines are built like tanks.
Soft grass = Good ! I cringe when my M-95 Steyr en-bloc clips drop out of my rifle too. Some things are just hard to replace. Not really valuable but the gun is a single shot without them.
Love your channel brother, most of my rifles are over 100 years old too. Believe it or not, I would take that Remington -Lee over any AR made today ! Far more interesting of a firearm. And a damn site more classy 😁
Woulda been absolutely awesome if this was the main service rifle of America during ww1, woulda put the nagant to shame.
Where can I hear the version of _Columbia, Gem of the Sea_ you had playing at the beginning?
It’s an old phonograph recording, I can’t remember which one exactly. But I used it to avoid copyright on the more recent recordings.
@@papercartridges6705
You own a phonograph?
00:00 Anyone know the name for this particular rendition of _"Columbia, Gem of the Ocean"?_
I find it interesting that this black powder weapon had a detachable mags. But rifles that came much later like the SKS, M1 and other bolt actions had fix box mags. Why is that?
The garand held 8 and was faster to load than this. Mags were expensive and heavy plus they didn’t want individual soldiers burning through their ammo (you can only carry so much 30’06). They almost did use detachable mags however the idea was scraped. The SKS was the same idea, an infantryman’s rifle for conscripts. The mosin it replaced had a fixed mag. Just another thing to lose. The Russians had the SVT with detachable mags however and that rifle was meant to be standard issue so I’m not sure. I’m guessing the SKS was simply a straight copy of the mosin M44 carbine concept: Fixed mag, integral bayonet, short carbine length. Something that can be given to EVERY soldier infantry or support, who wasn’t issued a sub machine gun or AK47. The Russians made the M44 carbine standard issue in late ww2 and the SKS replaced it in 1949.
The US marines were the only user of the Remington lee in the US military. They had a specialist role of using small party’s to raid shore installations so the fire power was justified plus being so few marines meant much less cost
@@DefunctYompelvert thank you for that information
Found one here in UK - sold. :( However, it was £2000 all but a fiver... Heady price, What do they sell for stateside?
Stupid question : you are loading black powder?; what's the comparison between that and a modern 45/70 round in terms of energy and velocity and recoil? Either you handle recoil well (a strong possibility) or these rounds don't have as much oomph as a modern round.
Modern smokeless .45-70 loads are often quite a bit hotter than historical BP .45-70 loads
It sure was ahewd of its time. The magazines look like they are from 2077.
I notice the USN stamping on the receiver. Was this rifle ever used by the Marines?
Yes, it was issued to bluejackets and Marines
Remington-Lee Mad Minute edition.
Imagine if the US Army adopted this rifle instead of the trapdoor 1873. Another case of What If's in history. I'm curious if Custer had a calvary version of this rifle, would it have made a difference at the battle of Little Big Horn?
"In the world"
Wow, never heard of this one.a real fell thru the cracks rifle.
I bet those spentcases don't hide in the gravel and grass so readily. 😁
I think you are conflating the M1895 Lee Navy rifle and the M1885 Remington-Lee rifle. The M1885 rifle was never referred to as the Remington-Lee Navy since an earlier variant (M1882) was tested/adopted in small numbers by the US Army. Solid video though and great footage from the range. There aren't many videos on You Tube featuring this rifle. Thanks.
My rifle is USN property marked. It is the Remington-Lee Navy 1885. You are correct that there was a later 6mm straight pull bolt Lee Navy as well.
@@papercartridges6705 My M1885 is USN marked too. My point is that the rifle never had "Navy" in its official name. It is the Remington-Lee rifle.
Adding "Navy" is still useful for differentiating the US Navy rifles from the slew of commercial and foreign contract 1885s. The Navy also adopted their own pattern of the earlier 1879 Remington-Lee.