The 1878 Remington-Keene: Tube Fed .45-70 Bolt Action Rifle
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2017
- John W. Keene was an independent gun designer who developed this rifle (and took out 9 patents on its various features) in the 1870s. He did not have a factory at his disposal to produce the gun, so he went looking for manufacturing partners. The Remington company at that time had been heavily committed to their very successful single-shot Rolling Block rifle, and did not have a bolt action design to submit to the upcoming 1878 US Army rifle trials. This was a natural fit, and Remington bought the rights to make Keene's rifle.
The Remington-Keene did not manage to win adoption at the 1878 trials (no rifle did, in fact), but it did attract the interest of the US Navy, and Remington also decided to offer it for commercial sale (as was common of repeating rifle designs at the time which had been rejected by the Army). The Navy purchased 250 examples in the early 1880s and issued them to the USS Michigan and USS Trenton. On the commercial side, the rifle remained in production from 1880 until 1888 with about 5,000 being manufactured and sold. It was offered in a variety of barrel lengths and configurations, and in three different calibers (.40-60, .43 Spanish, and .45-70) - although the .45-70 chambering was by far the most popular.
The Bureau of Indian Affairs also purchased between 600 and 800 Remington-Keene carbines, and they were used by Indian Agents and tribal police forces.
/ forgottenweapons
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.bbtv.com/collections/forg...
If you enjoy Forgotten Weapons, check out its sister channel, InRangeTV! / inrangetvshow
Man a 45-70 bolt action. Talk about badass
The USS Raleigh was designated C-8 and was commissioned from 1894 to 1919. If it was used by the Navy this could be what the C8 on the stock refers to.
bgordon647, that makes more sense. So the 406 would be the rack number of the ship. Company 8 of the 406th infantry regiment would be a stretch, as although it did exist and was a training unit in the 1920's that would seem like an outdated weapon to use, then again based on the weapon shortage/hodgepodge at the time it's not impossible. But being in a naval pattern this infantry theory seems unlikely.
I was just thinking that those looked like rack numbers. I wonder if there is any way to check if any of these were purchased by state militias or something along those lines because it very well could be rifle 406 of Company 8 (insert militia/law enforcement organization here). Just a thought.
My guess would be that it's a commercial rifle, but a previous owner bought a military surplus stock for it for some reason or another.
or it was just an early adopter of 1337 named Cate.
@@waynehindes3396 exactly my thoughts was maybe it was some small outfit that ended up with it and its just not documented well.
I'm guessing the take down screw is left handed because something with the elevator interacts with it and they most likely discovered that a right handed screw would self loosen. Probably more friction one way than the other when the elevator is going up and down.
That would make sense.
What doesn't make sense is why wouldn't they mark the head of the screw. Left handed threads suck when you don't know they're there.
If there is a rotational force on the screw it could make sense to use a left hand thread to keep it from coming loose. However it seems that the simpler solution would be to put the screw on the other side of the firearm and use a standard right hand thread. That would also solve that problem. So it still leaves us with relatively few answers on why.
I think we did come up with the reason as to why it's a left handed screw, but not the reason they left it that way. My guess as to that might have something to do with the tooling. You already have everything set up and it works, why go to the expense of changing it. It doesn't seem like the production numbers really got high enough to warrant investing the money to change it. To me they could have stamped the letter L and an arrow on the screw and that would have been a cheap and quick fix to people buggering up the screw.
@@D3faulted1 they marked it… in the owner’s manual
This would be a nice rifle to reproduce for modern smokeless cartridges..
slap on another locking lug and better metallurgy and I'd sell someone else's kidney for two rifles
It would make a nice hunting rifle
Everytime I watch this channel I am wondering why there isn't a company out there that solely makes reproductions of old/bizarre/ridiculous guns. I know they wouldn't do volume but there are some really serious firearms collectors that would pay out the wazoo even for a rifle that is 90% similar to a historical one. Like we need a machinist and a couple engineers and get the ball rolling lol
@@codemiesterbeatsHell yeah especially some of the handguns
Not with spitzer bullets - unless you would like to repeat the Russian tests that resulted in the Moison Nagant... chain detonation happened....
Man this thing is crazy slick. Can't believe it's from the 1870s.
My favorite rifle of the old west. If you notice, a scoped carbine version was featured in the movie Young Guns 2. Viggo Mortensen's character was armed with it and was used to kill Doc Skurlock in the movie. It had to have been an original rifle since no one has made a replica of this rifle.
That looks like one of the Indian Police Forces he mentioned.
I think this was also used by one of the bad guys in Crossfire Trail. It was the carbine variant, with a scope.
A Remington Keene was used by the character Mingo portrayed in the Clint Eastwood movie "Joe Kidd".
That rifle also sported a telescopic sight.
@@lancesoterion435 That rifle from Joe Kidd was the same one used in Young Guns 2. Must be the same armorer for both movies. The gun was a sporterized deluxe model, with shortened magazine tube, long barrel, and modified stock.
one is glimpsed with james gregory working on it as he runs a gunsmiths in the sons of katy elder with john wayne.
Ian, I'm not sure you'd be allowed to do it, or even want to, but for a good while I've thought that - were you to invest in either common caliber snap-caps, or common caliber (safety orange?) all-plastic dummy rounds - it would really be nice to see about three rounds loaded and then run through a lot of the auction firearms you've shown us. Yes, sure, we all understand the action of - in this case - lever actions (re-designed to bolt action here), but it would just be nice to see (perhaps especially so for younger viewers who may have never loaded a bottom-loaded or side-loaded firearm, and who may have never had the chance to make the action work to see how the rounds are pulled from the magazines).
Again, thanks for what you're doing.
David Hanny +1000 likes
David Hanny I'm all for that. But nearly half the guns shown by Ian are chambered in either proprietary rounds or are quite rare and finding the dummies would be nearly impossible. Especially since the really cool and obscure actions usually weren't successful. I'm not sure if the auction companies would let him either. It would be nice though. I realize you meant common rounds.
David Hanny. It would be awesome, but since a lot of guns have bizarre calibers , it would be necessary a 3D printer to get a dummy cartridge...
I was going to suggest also that its not guaranteed that these firearms in many cases have been approved safe to fire either. It may be that he risks blowing up something very valuable (like his head lol)
milamber319 As long as it's not a selfloader he's trying to cycle, the gun wouldnt have to withstand anything other than a loud pop from whatever the firing pin hits.
Man, I would totally love a modernized one of these. Really great design!
>left hand thread screw
Was one of the engineers on this rifle named Chrysler?
Megaman3300 probably a troll move.
No...the guy that did this was the grandfather of the guy who designed the left side hubs fitted to mazda pickups and light commercial vehicles......and at night, in the rain, his name will always spelled with several variations of four letters.....
You CAN handle the truth!!!
How dare you invoke the name of Chrysler in vain.
lmfao I am a mechanic and I am only 31 so I have only seen a handful of old Chrysler/Plymouths that had 'reverse' threads the kicker is that some of them are normal on one side of the lugs and then reverse on the other side lol
This thing is just brimming with cutting edge technology for the time it seems.
Especially the pivoting elevator. That was only a couple years old by the time this gun came out
I would buy a replica of this if Remington made one
I guess you can say, the US Navy were, "Keene" to adopt this rifle.
Dad joke :)
Good one
Lol
Groan
Take my upvote and leave.
The .45-70 cartridge is probably my all-time favorite cartridge and I have several guns in the caliber, including lever-actions, trapdoors,and other rifles, as well as a Magnum Research BFR4570 revolver, but I've never seen a .45-70 bolt gun. Were one of the better companies to offer an updated (modern powder) version of this rifle, I'd be ready to buy one -- or maybe two! -- without hesitation.
Thai Mausers are occasionally rechambered for 45 70.
I really want a Trapdoor or Sharps. I also like 45-70 although i do think .460 SW is a much more modern & i hope that firearms transition to that.
@@1nfamyX .460 S&W while an excellent cartridge is unlikely to ever replace the .45-70 for one thing the standard chamber pressure is significantly higher which limits the actions it can be put in. With .460 standard load data coming in around 55,000 PSI chamber pressure which is only equalled in .45-70 in the hottest load data intended for strong actions like the Ruger no. 1
@@jameshagerman7681 im aware of that, i just meant in new big bore firearms not in all reproductions. It doesnt suffer so heavilly from a shorter barrel & its a lot more efficient by case volume though. As it is now only like T/C Contenders, Big Horn Armory, & the SW XVR itself are made for .460, just hoping to see it catch on more than that
@@1nfamyX my bad man, slightly misunderstood your comment. I'd love to see some more options in .460 hit the market as well, especially at a slightly lower price point
5pm at Mr. Keene's workshop on the top floor of a factory in Newark:
Mr. Keene gathering his overcoat and technical drawings calls out "Peg, hold the elevator for me!"
Peggy the elevator operator: "Sure thing, Mr. Keene".
Mr. Keene: EUREKA!!!!!
Love shooting 45-70 smokeless rounds from modern lever guns. It's a ton of fun shooting long range. Once a modern shooter wraps their head around it's trajectory, it's a great change of pace and unique challenge if all one usually shoots is modern laser like rounds.
.45-70 ain't no slouch. I love it.
Combination of a bolt action repeater with a hammer was used on the pre-production 1867 Vetterli although this was a true separate hammer striking a floating firing pin. It also had 3 equidistant locking lugs.
That's really cool. The hidden tube makes for a really sleek look. The hammer is funny, but I understand what they were going for with it.
Love the caliber, the tube system
She looks like a mighty fine rifle. I wish I could own one.
As always , excellent presentation.
I do like the .45/70.
The French should have stole that loading system. It would make the Lebel much nicer then having to load down through the bolt/chamber area.
jontheballer i
...Lebel
Hells bells, the rear sight is small even by the standards of the day.
This thing is AWESOME! Wish I had the money, I'd buy this in a heartbeat!
Good job as always Ian.
Uberti should make this rifle!
I would love this rifle, It looks like a fantastic design for its time
There is a small piece on the bolt that can be removed to allow the rifle to work as a cock-on-closing bolt action without cocking the "hammer". I put mine back in, though, because if I mislaid that piece, I would never be able to find a replacement!
the more i look at this rifle, the more beautiful it gets
Cool rifle. Ive never seem one of those before. Thanks for sharing.
I never cease to be amazed by the lack of foresight on the part of the U.S. Army Ordnance Department. Why would they choose to stay with a single shot rifle, when they could have adopted this, or, Winchester lever actions?
Anon Nymous they didn't want soldiers to fire without aiming because they had more ammunition. Not a very good reason imo
The Army Ordnance folks were hidebound and simply could not think outside the box.
Ammo conservation. Logistics and such weren't nearly as robust as nowadays and officers and top military officials were genuinely concerned that conscripts with repeating rifles would deplete their ammo too quickly and not take time to make sure their shots would actually hit the target. The repeating rifles were reserved for the elite unites that actually could make the most use out of them
Awesome thanks 👍
Beautiful mechanism.
This looks like a really cool piece of firearms history and also looks like it would have been really fun to shoot
I first saw the rifle years ago when I first watched the John Wayne movie the sons of Katie Elder.
At last I can contribute, the end of the disassembly screw is called a " dog point" today it is used in automated assembly as a guide to assist the screw into the hole or nut.
That's a very clever and elegant design. I imagine that if not for the popularity of lever-action rifles it might have revolutionized the civilian sporting rifle market at the time.
This rifle is a neat design.
8:50 A victory for us left handers, a small one, but a victory none the less.
RebSike Just wondering, who's the artist for your profile pic of Mr. House?
Rafi Hardadi Im not sure who the artist is. Ive tried searching, but havent found anything on the source, maybe you could find it. It's one of the first images that pops up when searching "mr house." The full image is a poster that reads "you dont have to dream that you're important" under the head.
I'm betting the C8 marking is a date code for March 1878. Auto batteries have similar date codes for month and year of manufacture. Interesting rifle. The mag system looks easier to use than a Lebel, and what's not to like about a 45-70 repeater? Undoubtedly the navy liked it because their shore parties tended to be small, and needed the firepower. The Navy often bought interesting stuff and was ahead of the army (insert 6mm Lee Navy rifle here). Great video as always. Thank you
Love this rifle
So cool
Awesome rifle indeed! I own a Siamese Mauser conversion which was well made by the very well known Vaughn Mattson back in the 70's. This is not one of those home shop conversations. This one is very very well done. And Vaughn knew how to make great conversion rifles. I have a Martini action 219 Zipper also created by Vaughn.
This rifle had a new barrel installed at the time of the conversion and one very nice Walnut stocks that he made. And best of all this one has never had a feed issue with any of the cartridges I have put through it. Timney trigger was added at the time as well.
My one problem with this rifle however is it was set up for scope only. So I have since purchased express sights for it. These were custom made for this rifle . They have a leaf for 100 , 200 , and 300 yards. Which is perfect considering these are best for use around 200 yards . It is a great brush gun and bear buster. I am not a bear hunter but when in Alaska I prefer something more than foul language when I encounter a bear. I of course being a 45-70 fan have other firearms chambered in 45-70 . I have a Marlin 1895 SBL ( Remlin ) which I am lucky enough to have one that is well put together and chambers and fires well.
I own a few other firearms chambered in 45-70 one is a Magnum Research BFR with 10 inch barrel and I also own a old 1886 Winchester which is over 100 years old. It is a safe queen as I know if I took it into the Alaskan brush I would either fall down and break the stock or scratch it up on the brush. So it makes an occasional trip to the range but no where else. When I was younger and thought U was tough I also owned an American Derringer M4 Alaskan. After I shot it a few times I let it go. I am not so recoil sensitive as you may think. I also own a .500 S&W magnum and a 454 Casull as well as several .44 mags. The Derringer in 45-70 however was created as some sort of Spanish inquisition torture device.
Now I want one of these rifles from the video. Pretty cool piece of history.
That "hammer" is just way cool.
Action reminds me of the Mauser 71/84. I guess it was a contemporary of that rifle but aye pre-dated the Mauser repeater by a few years. A shooting comparison would be pretty cool!
If you're a fan of western movies the bad guy character of Beau Dorn (Brad Johnson) uses a scoped Remington-Keene Deluxe Sporter to murder JT Langston (Christian Kane) in the movie "Crossfire Trail". It took me forever to figure out what kind of rifle that was when the movie first came out!
Tom Selleck is a real gun enthusiast, and that movie even had a 28-shot Evans Sporter in it. (My god that's a fugly rifle!) It was also the movie that made me fall in love with the Winchester 1876 carbine. It's big. It's heavy, but it's awesome!
Slick as fuark. There's something magical about handcannons like 45-70.
I LOVE YOU. I LOVE GUNS. U R PERFECT FOR INTERNET MANS
I've watched nearly every episode of your early model rifle series and by far this is the, in my opinion, best thought out design of all pre 1882 rifles...except for the MOPAR influence with...lugnut breech bolt thing. Unless you've own a 1967 or sooner Chrysler product you might not get the intent.
Excelente
Really cool
Curious on the C8 marking and there was a Navy Cruiser of that period the USS Raleigh C8, that preceded the USS Detroit that did have these rifles . Just a stab in the dark.
Very cool... Making me wish there were modern repros of it.
Ian, I'd love to see your explanation on the legality of firearms without serial numbers, such as this one, also firearms made before serial numbers were legally required. Not including 80%'s or homebuilds, but to include things like Chinese Mystery Pistols. Great video as always!
If a gun was made prior to 1968, it is not required to have a serial number (although if does have one, defacing that number is still illegal).
How does that law apply if date of manufacture can't be determined? For example Khyber Pass replica firearms. Would it be based on the dates the originals were produced?
tehmonsterinyourbed Ha I literally made that exact joke yesterday.
That looks like an ideal deer rifle for woodland hunting! Plenty of knock down power for short to medium range! Hit a deer with that anywhere but the lower legs and it will hit the ground! Love the simplicity of design. !! And the looks of it!
Would rather have a lever action.
This rifle seems really cool for its time. Also for present day California and France.
I'm so early that Its 1878
Of bolt action BPguns, I have a Mauser 71 and 71/84, a Chinese Lee, a Kropatschek 8mm, a Vetterli -Vitale and Beaumont-Vitale, Vetterli RF ( Bannerman) and 86 Mannlicher...and a Hotchkiss 8?. A Chassepot-Gras 66/74.
NOW need a Keene, a Berdan, Muratas, Fruwirth, French Navy Krops, anything else ( besides willing a Lotto Jackpot???
Doc Av
Another great video Ian.
Dang that is a lot of guns you should start a youtube channel shooting these guns but next you need a Winchester Hotchkiss 1879 and 1883 models. A Greene single shot bolt action rifle. And whatever European, Asian, or American bolt action rifles.
If I had one of these, the temptation would always be there to just go into a trance watching the action work. "Elevator goes up... elevator goes down. Elevator goes up... elevator goes down. Elevator goes up..."
(any other Bad Obsession Motorsport fans about? :)
Heyy I've seen this before haha good to see some more info on it
Carbine version of that with some aftermarket sights, seems like it would have made for one hell of a hunting rifle. I need to find the Indian Affairs models to check out.
It looks like the area where the markings were supposed to go has been ground off for some reason. The finish and color are different from the surrounding area I think
Left-handed thread means the contact point to the elevator mechanism wipes counterclockwise and helps it come back up into the receiver on reassembly.
That's what I thought too
Saw a sporterized version in Crossfire Trail,but that was in .40 .60 Marlin.
Seems to me a spiral indentation on the tubular magazine could be timed with the cartridge length to tilt the cartridges to prevent primer strikes.
Nice gun
Nice to see some .45-70 rifles now and then, thanks Ian.
But I have some questions...
So, when the bolt is pulled all the way back, and the elevator is up, what prevents the rounds from making a hasty exit via the loading (gate?) located in the bottom side of the stock?
Also, if the bolt is in battery and locked then a round is waiting on the elevator (as it has now dropped) ... if so then the gun cannot be loaded while the bolt is in battery?
Thanks,
- Eddy
Had one pass thought the shop today. Carbine, full cock-on-open, non-marked 45-70, no serial number in evidence. Has replacement front and rear sights - Remington 700-type rear, Winchester 70- type front. Don’t see them often…
Someone should reintroduce this rifle (or something like it) in slightly modernized form! I would sure want one!!!
The numbers on the stock... The USS Raleigh (C-8) was a protected cruiser laid down in 1889, commissioned in 1984. This would be just outside the time frame suggested by "USS Michigan and USS Trenton until 1888, maybe longer". But it's in the ballpark, I think.
That seems like a very well designed and completely functional gun at the time it hit the market. The army should have purchased a least a few thousand of these or something equally useful for its forces. Okay so my opinion doesn't matter but I stick by my thinking.
could the left handed thread be because they feared recoil losing the screw
That is an interesting gun.
13:20 My guess is that that is a Navy-issued stock that marked the rack and perhaps group of where the rifle belonged - or its number when cataloging total rifles on the ship (for inventory's sake; if a ship has, say, 600 rifles, but of different makes and vastly different serial numbers, accountability is much easier to re-number them from 001 to 600 on the stocks to account for each) - when not in use, now re-purposed to a better condition upper whose stock cracked or broke.
Could the markings on the stock be from a Canadian military or RCMP usage? Some of the Savage 99's purchased by the Montreal homeguard (much later I know) bear similar marks.
Ian what happened to the Zastava M76?
It is interesting how much the action resembles common pump shotguns.
I really do not understand what there is not to like on this rifle. Holds multiple rounds, has a cutoff, easy to top off and fully load, Bolt works smoothly, Hammer is easy to see condition of firearm, basic sights! I think it is actually pretty slick!!
Yeah, the fact that this gun didn't get adopted is pretty weird. It has pretty much everything the Army could have wanted.
The manual cocking after working the bolt seems like a pain, but an experimental version had a self cocker
@@nextcaesargaming5469basically no military at the time used repeating rifles. Everyone wanted single shots.
@@baneofbanes Plenty of militaries had repeating rifles not dissimilar to this one at the time, the Swiss being a particularly notable example.
@@nextcaesargaming5469 yah that’s about it. And the Swiss are hardly a notably military power. The Americans had the Trapdoor, the Brits the Martini Henry, the French the Gra, the Germans would’ve just adopted the Mauser 1871/78, with the 1871 still being the skit commoner rifle, the Russians used the Berdan, and most everyone else used rifles the Remington rolling block.
When the bolt is fully open and the elevator is lifted up, what is preventing the rounds in the magazine tube from spilling out due to the spring pressure? Does the elevator still block the opening of the magazine tube?
Sometimes magnetic powder can show makings that have been removed. The stamping cause magnetic anomalies in the base metal.
Very interesting gun.
One question though for yourself Ian or anyone here in the comments, given that the cartridges are under spring tension to move backwards onto the elevator when it is in the 'down' position, what stops the cartridges flying out under spring pressure when the elevator is raised?
Probably a silly question I know but as a European I'm not as well versed on tube magazines as all of you across the Atlantic :)
They should make replicas or more bolt action .45-70
Trials gun Ian?
It would explain the lack of markings and it may also be a form of tracking for some form of testing.
Ian, are we allowed to send donations in the from of canned/bottled goods to either Forgotten Weapons or your sister taste testing channel, InRangeTV?
Sure, I suppose...
+Forgotten Weapons You're gonna regret that.
Minttu! Brrrrr
Laird Cummings Finnish person here, let's make it happen.
Laird Cummings just don't let Ian (or Karl) know.
I have 2 of these. One is very interesting. The hammer locks back when cocked and the stock as a faint USID stamp in it. I do have a USID stamped receiver version. Any insight?
funky
If you slide the loading gate up to load, but the loading gate also slides up in order to feed cartridges when in use, then how does it avoid just dumping all your cartridges out every time you cycle?
Left tighty, righty fighty with the idiots that makes screws like that, god dammit. I've dealt with that on a car and it's one of the single most frustrating things in the world.
@@mannys9130 older chrysler and plymouth cars have normal threads on the wheel hubs on one side and reverse on the other... I am not too certain there was any valid reason to do it that way in that case. My guess is it was cheaper on tooling costs... probably like other debacles on cars they find some way to save a half a cent per unit so they send it down to production and reap the benefits lol
what stops the elevator fromjust flipping the next round out the top like an ejector?
U.S army puts out a requirement for an ambitious, next generation rifle. Some of the best manufacturers in the country submit high tech bids that far exceed the capability of the current service rifle. After rigorous testing the army comes back and says "Nah actually we think we're going to keep our 15 year old rifle, thanks."
Good to see some traditions die hard.
Cool gun did you get to test fire it?
8:30, I'm mad at that reversed unscrew direction.
I kind of like this design.
Im almost wondering if 406 is for Montana area code if it went to the reservation police that could make sense as well
You know, Ian says 9+1 of 45/70 but i read there were two military loadings for 45/70, is there a difference practically? Would it matter?
The two loadings used the same case and had the same overall length.
When the elevator is up, what prevents the ammo in the tube to fly away, down the rifle?
Ian, why never a mention of the Marlin lever-action rifles of this era? I have seen and shot a model 1881 octagonal barrel Marlin in 45-70 (with a set trigger... very sweet shooting gun!) Seems an oversight to mention Winchesters and Remingtons and others, but nothing about Marlin? Marlin was started in 1870...
Just haven't gotten to them yet...
Something more to look forward to! Thanks for all you do here!
About the stock now I don't know where it comes from but is it possible this gun was in the inventory of a state militia? I mean did they have an inventory at that time and mark their rifles?
Just thought since this is the US something like that could be possible :/
45-70govt is my favorite caliber, but i prefer lever action rifles like 1878 Buffalo rifle
Ahhh precise machining in the 19th century