Why ATB May Never Return
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ธ.ค. 2023
- The Active Time Battle system is RPG system developed by Square back in 1991 and has been used by them for the majority of their flagship Final Fantasy games. However the system seems to have been left in the past. In this video we discuss why that might be the case.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again, I ADORE the Gambit system and I really wish more games had adopted it. It's SOOOOO Good.
the remake system, with a gambit system on it plus character swapping from x would be the perfect one for me
consider Unicorn Overlord, they use a strategy AI thing similar to gambit system for your troops, and have a nice game feel if you liked games like ogre battle.
I used to love the ATB system myself. Because if a character is faster than the others, then he can get an extra turn by having his ATB fill up just in time before them.
But if that's the depth that it provides, then FF10's CTB system did it minus the wait time.
The CTB system already calculated every character and enemy's turns, sorting it into an easy-to-read list.
exactly, simply having a speed stat accomplishes the same thing without making the combat drag.
Good insights! I liked the battle system in FFX, where you had some sense of how quick each character was. When I (accidentally) fought Dark Shiva for the first time, she got 3 turns in a row right at the start of the battle and killed each of my characters one by one before I could act. It was kind of exciting because I could see straight away "whoa, we are completely underlevelled for this" from the timing of her turns, rather than just getting smashed for 9999 damage.
In contrast to that, when playing Persona 4 Golden a few weeks ago, I accidentally stumbled upon Death in the very first dungeon of the game. Even though he was like postgame difficulty and absolutely untouchable given the party's low level and lack of abilities, he still didn't seem able to act before us, and I was able to escape after a couple of rounds.
But my absolute favourite JRPG, and probably second favourite game ever (after Ultima 7) is FFXII. As a programmer in the mid 2000s, I picked it up for my PS2 and was totally blown away. The gambit system was as close I'd seen any mainstream-ish game come to writing code, and it felt great. Definitely an inspiration.
My first FF was FFIV and yeah played it in 1991-1992 on the SNES. Up to do this day i am addicted to its ATB system!
Hey man. Recently found your channel. I am also a dev working on an RPG in unity, but my game is more towards the action roguelike type.
I just wanted to say bro, best of luck with your game and don't give up, the game is looking bustin' and I definitely see potential in it, and I really hope that you succeed.
Take good care brother! Don't give up.
Really appreciate the kind words as every day is a struggle to keep moving forward lol!! But really thank you! Good luck on your game as well!
Great video. I feel like ATB sort of lived on in MMOs where the combat revolves around using an attack (that, like turn-based systems, often connects with or misses an opponent automatically) and waiting for cooldowns in order to do something else. Obviously controlling only a single character is a big difference but you do often juggle multiple ability cooldowns at once, which is somewhat analogous.
I never considered it from that perspective but I can see the parallels between ATB and older tab target MMO's. Definitely a lot of waiting in those games haha. But in thinking about this myself, another thing MMOs have is movement. Being able to physically dodge an ability. That in itself already adds a layer of gameplay. Except for FF11, I didn't really play that game so idk, but most of what I've seen is a lot of standing around
cooldown based and turn based are quite different. because with cooldown based you still have control of your character where as with turn based you do not.
keep it up man!
FF12 basically turn ATB gauge into Charge or Cast Time bar so it's not really just waiting around which was genius. FF13 was one of the best use of ATB along with X-2 for me. But yeah, other than that, I don't think ATB will return. I think the earlier games like FF4 and Chrono Trigger have some great use of ATB that for some battle, waiting around for the right moment to act is encouraged, and that makes ATB more engaging.
Yes absolutely, some of the other games had things like counter mechanics where you had to wait to attack. And Chrono trigger had enemies that moved dynamically throughout the field, so it added a layer to your attack choices. But yeah overall, traditional "wait for bars to fill" is over I think
FF12 was the peak
@Nycat15 12 had the strategic elements down but was missing the flow and action elements, which 13 nailed perfectly
Grandia's system is also used by Child of Light, which I see in the video too.
CoL also gave more value to the block skill imo (unsure if grandia had it), as its usually a lackluster move to get in most rpgs unless you have taunt systems, since usually defeating the enemy fast is more valuable than turtling. but in those system, when you action cast was too risky to use, a instant block skill was a really good option.
Id like to see it more, or maybe it has value for a pvp system, like how people play speed chess. that way more mistakes are made to exploit on any side and make the game session faster.
You make a very interesting point about making the block useful. You're right in a lot of games the block command is mostly ignorable on normal difficulty settings, but CoL makes it a central command and balances around it
At least we're still getting it in the FF7 Remake project games. FF7 Remake had my favorite combat system in not just any FF game but any game in general. It was a good blend between turn based and action based and had the quirks of both (timing dodges and parries for action and being strategic and using buffs/debuffs for turn based). I think Square wants to gauge the community feedback for both FF16 and FF7 Remake/Rebirth to know which would be the future of the series. As much as I liked FF16, I found the combat to lack the depth that FF7 Remake's combat system had. No party members, no buffs/debuffs, no elemental weaknesses and no ATB. Hope they go with FF7 Remake for the future of the series and I can't wait for Rebirth.
Btw fantastic video man.
Gust's atelier ryza trilogy and blue reflection 2 both used atb recently. Ryza 2 in particular I think really nailed it's implementation.
I feel like the best version of an ATB system isn't actually an ATB system, but just a priority queue. The first time I saw such a game was FF Tactics, but it's been used in tons of games since, the most recent of which I've played were a few titles in the Trails series. Different characters have attacks that take different lengths of time, and therefore refresh sooner or later, akin to ATB, but without the need to whale on the buttons because the game will stop and wait for the attack. It's obviously a little closer to turn-based, but it's not a true "turn" as I think of it in the old school sense of "everyone queues up an action, and the game plays them out one at a time." (And although the examples I gave do also couple with positioning characters on a battlefield, it can work with basic break-out battles, too. See: Crystal Project.)
Yeah I agree with what you're saying. Introducing time mechanics to a "turn based" game similar to what you described is a good way to spice things up! Really anything other than "wait for bar to fill" haha
kind of similar is what battle brothers does with fatigue... each action in a turn costs fatigue, and that can affect your turn order next turn or even make you skip a turn if you empty it out too much
makes a lot more sense to have "turn based time" like this than this nonsense half and half that ATB generates
I wish more games did the Grandia battle system, games like Child Of Light for example, I think it's underappreciated and has a lot of potential
Yeah I actually agree...so much so that I'm using it for my game...hint hint. Still WIP though lol
@@EdomGames1 No jrpg combat system has ever given me a more satisfying gameplay experience than Grandia, so you have definitely piqued my interest.
I thought ATB meant Active Turn Based because it was still turn based. Players still take turns and you never have situations where two attacks would clash. In fact FF Tactics is just an ATB system itself. It shows that this system doesn't really need to be in "real time." I think XIII is an example of a true real time ATB system since multiple actions can happen at once and actions can be interrupted in a clash. Actually I think X-2 might predate the real time. I know some actions in that game don't require you to respect turns and you can stuck lock some bosses that way. You can technically do this in games like FFVIII but that's mostly because of the action queue priority system where limit breaks take priority in the queue.
my favorite combat system from the FF series was 13-2 through it is almost the same as 13 , but switching is a lot faster and cleaning without the slow down.
It added spice to the turn order formula, especially when it can only be done in a digital setting. It would be a nightmare in actual TTRPG that has Dungeons & Dragons depth of rules. It's a funny double edge sword.
Child of light showed you can still do imsginitive things with an ATB guage. But yes, ive heard many arguments why ATB systems are broken - its hard to see them ever coming back to prominence
With the raise of the internet, especially the new trend of quick fix short format videos, attention span as a whole has dramatically fallen. ATB has gone from a common rpg element, into a niche gimmick. But if done right you could easily leverage it into a fun gimmick that attracts the right fanbase. Nothing goes away forever, just shelves until someone has a smart( or dumb) enough idea to bring new life and make it fun again
Nothing wrong with a good turned based game, even with gimmicks it is still a solid system. DQ11 might have been the pinnacle of the best turn based modern games.
What game is 2:22 - 2:40?
Oh it's just a summon sequence from Final Fantasy 8! I could have chose a better clip lol
@@EdomGames1 I think they meant from like 2:31-2:40. And I would love to know too it looks awesome
@@Bentbrokentheory Ohhhh that's Star Rail sorry. Yeah I should have paid close attention. That is Honkai Star Rail. It's a gacha game. Pretty good buuuut it's a gacha game lol. So it comes with all the crappy monetization strategies, but can be played F2P if you put the time.
@@EdomGames1 should have known it was too good to be true. Thanks for the info regardless!
@@EdomGames1 thank you!
13-3 had the last & best version of the atb system. Hope it comes back in FF17. It was the perfect balance of turn based & action.
The system used in 13-3 was definitely a step forward for the franchise, but we're in the action meta now haha
@EdomGames1 True but if they ever return to it or in another RPG I hope it brings that combat back lol
I feel that the core aspect of ATB like speed can be still be adapted. A modern game that most comes to mind is Pokemon Legends Arceus that takes speed into consideration by letting you pull off multiple attacks a turn or a heavy attack that leaves you more vulnerable
I wish people would quit implying that arpgs are automatically not strategic, when souls and dragons dogma exist.
ARPG's do have a level of strategy to them, it's just different. Strategy in Souls for example is a lot of understanding the bosses patterns and coming in with the right equipment. But the moment to moment gameplay is all about skill, reflexes and timing. Turn based games are more about long term planning, board position, and setting up the field for a win condition. ARPG's just don't have the same complexity as a game like Divinity, Baldurs Gate, XCOM or even Darkest Dungeon. That doesn't make them "bad, dumb or easy", the focus of those games is just leaning towards action. It's difficult to take a game as complex as Baldurs Gate and make it an ARPG. If you did, you would have to compensate by reducing complexity somewhere else like improved AI partners or focusing on just 1 character.
@@EdomGames1 ik, but a lot of people talk down on them like they feature no strategy at all.
I love souls, my top 3 greatest games of all time are all souls... strongly disagree strategy plays any major role in those game though, I guess "strategy" can mean very different things for different people
for the more classic take of ARPG: diablo, pillar of eternity, etc... I do belive it requires the game to be extremely dumbed down, even ARPG with pause is an awkward bastard child that doesn't know what it wants to be
X-2 had the fastest and funnest version of ATB in my opinion, too bad it’s one of my least favourite stories in the entire series.
Good riddance. Actual turn based or action are much better
EDIT: I agree that XIII made it great tho, Grandia was fun too but haven't beat it
Kids and teens these days are too impacient and lack too much discipline and racionality, that's one of the main reasons, not the only one of course, only people with 30+ will understand this commentary🤔
*Thank Goodness!!* 🥳 Lol @ all the salty ''majority opinions'' crying about ''dumbing down''. Oh high n Mighty ,, bleh.
Whatever happened to immersion in reflecting how Reality actually works?! Not me charging @ an enemy only to stop in mid-fight, pull a Smartphone out of my pocket and start madly dabbling through a bunch of stone-dead Boring menus and/or tables. Good riddance!! 1:52 Oh, ''spamming the attack button'' - like yea, that's the _point?_ Viva Final Fantasy 16!!
unpopular opinion... I hated every single ATB game
LOL not as unpopular as you might think. I loved them because it's what I grew up on. As an adult and having experienced other games, yeah I can see why people didn't enjoy them
Agreed. But only if I can't set it to Wait when it's my turn.