STATISTICALLY LEBRON isnt passing JORDAN.. JORDAN won more in less years. JORDAN also averages 30PPG and lead the league in POINTS 10 times. LEBRON scores more due to the simple fact that he played more seasons and most of those seasons in a ERA with games ending with 120 POINTS.
Messi is like Maradona without the self destructive tendencies, hedonism, drugs, alcohol and womanising. He had stability and his genius talent flowered to full beauty
In terms of just elegance, playfulness and skills I still think there was no one better than Ronaldinho. Messi is beautiful to watch but even he just can't reach Ronaldinho in those aspects.
only manu/madrid fans say ronaldo is the goat every other football fan/player thats not associated with ronaldo has said messi is the goat its common knowledge idk how its even a debate
@@jiahaogoh2822 I'm a real madrid fan before cr7 came and i always said that messi is better and I get called a plastic fan everytime haha. Both are great, but Messi is just a genius
@@alibee2083 i think most ‘real’ real madrid fans would also agree messi is the goat haha. not to discredit ronaldo im heavily inspired by his work ethic and his life story but watching messi play is just incomparable
I just happen to live in Barca at the time and I had loved football all my life. (2009) And I actually couldn't believe it was real! I always wondered what a nightmare it must have been for Madrid or any other team to had to go up against Messi. A player who could seemingly make goals from out of nothing. It was mind-boggling to watch in real time. How do you stop him? There was no reliable way! Play rough, he'd just... somehow ride the tackle, dribble a couple of players and pass it into the goal. Try to force him to his right? Well, you just gave him time to dismantle the whole defense! I was never a religious man but I swear to whatever is holy, that man, Messi, was a miracle. Words are not enough.
2011-12 Messi was the greatest player of all time, his peak is higher than everybody's peak. And consistently he's won Golden Shoe and been on top with assists. His international play is often scrutinized but he got to a WC final and constantly has to play Brazil, Colombia, Uruguay, Peru, Chile, etc.
@@benjones4974 goalscoring wise. But 14/15 as an overall player is even better imo. Even 18/19, the way he carried an incredibly average team close to a champions league was one of the craziest things I've ever seen in football. But if you just want to focus on goals and not actually watch the football itself then sure, 2012 was his peak
@@yoyo-tx6zg I agree with you. 11/12 he played as a pure centre forward in the strongest, most creative club side of all time, so of course he was going to score a ridiculous amount. Since then it's pretty clear if you watch him year after year that he became an even better player. More creative, more intelligent, better mentality and leadership.
As a Barça and Messi fan, what I realised is that, Cristiano Ronaldo is the pinnacle of what every footballer should try to achieve. He has reached the limits of what is humanely possible by a footballer on the basis of sheer hardwork and dedication. His out of the world fitness even at this age, will power and never give up attitude will always be a source of inspiration for generations to come. But Messi, he is the gift from the Footballing Gods. I remember an interview where Cristiano was asked about his dream goal, he said something along the lines of "... dribbling past the whole 11 and scoring a goal. But it is like a PlayStation goal. I don't know, maybe someday I can score." Messi has not just one, several goals doing the same. You see him play, it's like magic, makes you smile, fills you with ecstasy. Does things we can only dream of. We Barça fans are indebted to him, for all the years we have witnessed his wizardry. Both of them pushed each other over the years and it's hard to believe that they are nearing the end to their careers.
Well put, even as a huge fan of ronaldo, the levels of difference in terms of natural talent and ability is and should never be in question. But I think greatness is more than talent - and that’s the only way an argument can be made. Like Diego made meady teams champions, was coked up and living the life. Playing on a surface that had mini hills on and defenders that tried breaking your legs. Also the 80s was football at a developed stage. For me maradona is the greatest and if he played in this era he’d be greater than messi
i have to agree with you when i played as a kid/teenager i quickly realized that i will probably never be able to play like messi stylewise (not even talking about skill here) but ronaldos style was more suited for me i was fast strong and could jump like a kangaroo so i just tried to be like cr7. And i honestly don’t understand the “hate” from both sides. My generation (born late 90s-2000) was truly blessed to see those two legends grow, compete and dominate
Same old argument, that Ronaldo is just hard work lol. Sporting isn't recruiting every player out of the streets at 11 years old, bringing them away from their families, just for them to work hard you know? There has to be talent already there. Overall they are diferent players, even thou young CR7 was dribling past several opponents, he was never going to be that type of player forever, tall players are rarely gifted with that. You need a short person to create such a player, like Messi, it's the only way to keep balance is having a short center of gravity. Then Ronaldo is a player that uses tricks and expects a reaction of the opponent to move the ball where he wants to go. Which he was able to do for a long time. The quickness, reaction time he used to do this is one of his many talents. Many players have this talent, but it can't be thought I believe, you can try it, but you can only go so far with it. When it comes to dribling CR7 was one of those rare guys that could put the ball infront of anyone and get there first, I remember Thierry Henry, and R9 could do this aswell. R9 was crazy with it, because he did it being obese in the end of his career, shit you don't see in movies. This can be trained of course not to the extent of a R9 but yeah... Messi is diferent the way he dribles is using several techniques, if you go and watch his plays he does the same things, it's about 10 techniques/dribles/ball control(he does at high speed, which is nuts). He does them in a split second, always with his left foot, they are there automatized, for when he needs them, and he always makes the right choice. YOU CAN TRAIN this. Reaching his level, that is another story. Then he also has crazy acceleration, explosiveness. You can't go past several people without it. Football is all about the first few meters. And then when he is in trouble he does the same techniques but with is right foot, and that is a whole new level. CR7 relied in tricks/feints more then dribling, and Messi just dribled over anyone. Both playmakers, Ronaldo more important in defense to his team, way better aerial ability (then anyone ever I believe). We can't even compare them much behond this. Messi has always been the same type of player and Ronaldo has been like 3 diferent players that I can remember, he adapted his game. And he had too, because he grew much taller then he was when he arrived at Man Utd and because he played diferent positions and teams. Many good players disapear because they can't do this. They are great at 19 years old and at 22 they disapear. I believe that was where his hard work mentality became a factor. He coulda been a wonder kid(well he already had a balllon dor) that "flopped" after he joined Madrid but he went on to become a Real Madrid legend. These 2 deserve to be reconised as the best ever, because nobody else has been at the top for 15 years before. Only them Great players have 3 great seasons in them max, this is why we can't argue Ronaldinho, R9 in the same sentence as this guys, not even Maradona and I believe he was way better then Messi. And it's going to be a long time before we see a player like them again.
Messi passes the eye test, by being arguably the best dribbler and passer of a ball of all time and the statistics, by being statistically the best goalscorer and having the most assists of all time. He’s done it with great teams and he has single handedly carried some poorer teams. There is no debate, he is simply the GOAT.
@@craigr4763 just because people choose to have a debate, doesnt mean that the debate is valid. It is overwhelmingly in favour of messi, it is like debating flat earth. Yes people can debate it, but its silly.
@@zak2659 I agree with you in principle that not all debates are justifiable, you're absolutely right, but I think you're wrong to suggest that it applies here. I'm not just imagining that there's a debate -there actually is one, and crucially it's not just among random people on the internet, but among scholars. Sorry, the debate is perfectly legitimate.
I'vre never seen a single person who is both smart and analytical that is actually interested in the game and not just a casual fan, say that CR7 is close to Messi or better than him. Every single time that type of person understands Messi is better, whether they're Barcelona fans, Madrid fans, Portuguese or Argentine, or from anywhere in the world. It's just too obvious for anyone who actually interests themselves in learning about the game and not just reducing it to whether someone scored a goal or not in a particular game or who runs quicker or is taller lmao. Good for Carlsen for being able to analyse and conclude logically on a very obvious topic despite his Real Madrid fandom.
Messi hasn't done anything since Xavi n Iniesta left. Finally won the Copa America after 15 tries vs the almighty Chile. From Eibar to Nantes assist hat trick merchant now 😁GOAT!
@@doliniplanini2260 Wont change the fact that ball on the feet Messi is a better player and there's nothing you can do about it, atp you're just trying to be different but one day you'll understand
To say not even close to Messi, it’s a bit exaggerated.. CR7 is along with Messi one of the greatest. You don’t need to be choosing. Some ppl might prefer, Maradona ,others Pelé, others Cruyff.. Messi didn’t invent football nor you decide who’s the best for everyone else. Also, on the big matches, against the big teams when it really matters Messi tends to shy away. Just an observation, dribbling 5 players of Getafe, is not the same than dribbling 5 player of England’s national team on a World Cup quarter final..
Messi is magical player , he reads the game like no one else , he gives great assists. He shoots hard , he dribbles beautifully . Messi is above others for sure
Thankfully we got to see Messi and Ronaldo at the same time. So cool they have completely different styles and personalities. I agree Messi is the GOAT, but take nothing away from Ronaldo. Together they somehow improved the greatest rivalry in all of sports in El Clásico.
I dont acknowledge ronaldo's greatness. and i dont fucking have to. stop shoving it down people's throats. I think that ronaldinho, kaka, zidane, ronaldo phenomeno were all better players. I'm tired of people acting like it's a fucking crime to say that ronaldo isn't great.
i already liked magnus and now i like him even more knowing that he also preffer messi over cr7 because messi is just something else..just seeing him dribbling you know he is a different kind
Messi's ability to assist the goal is so underrated. He has such a gravity on offense with the ball in his possession that he manipulates the defense with his insane dribbling, creates weaknesses, then dishes out the perfect pass for the easy score by a teammate. This is what is lacking in cr7's game, and what really puts messi at the top of goat convo imo.
There’s one difference about Messi that puts him above all the rest. It’s just the simple eye test. Watching Messi play is beautiful. Truly beautiful. I’m not sure I can say that about any other player.
I’m not part of this debate, but for me the first time I saw Brazilian Ronaldo, it was something that I have never seen before in the history of Football, it changed how football players moved, dribbled, ran, defended. So when Messi, Cristiano and many other great players came, I thought they were great, but nothing out of the pre-existing game, and they didn’t do drugs nor lost their careers for injuries, so they achieved amazing things. Good on them!
@Chiave - Interestingly, even Messi himself said that Ronaldo Nazario was his favourite player and something similar to what you said about him. However, for me, Pele was the best of all time. No question about it.
Messi is priceless if you truly understand and love football. He's a glitch in the matrix, especially in his peak years (2009-2016). He made me a football fan because in 2007, i didn't know half of the rules in football. I was only 11 and my team at the time was Chelsea. Just because of the color blue and Super Frank Lampard. Then by sheer accident i saw Pep's Barça and even then, in my little kids head, i knew it was something else. How i wish to go back to that time and relive that era with my current understanding of the beautiful game. It was truly peak football. Pep's Barça belongs in the pantheon of football and Messi is crown jewel. That was 13 years ago and the things he has done since? Wow wow wow. He's just a freak. In the words of Pep himself, we will never see another player like him ever. And i genuinely believe that. So many names have been thrown in to the pile of "next Messi". Yet not even 1 of em can even do 0.005% of Messi Magic. Messi's reign and era in La Liga is untouchable. La Liga is tied with EPL as the toughest league in Europe now, back then? It was The League to play in and Messi dominates it. If only La Liga speaks english, then it would be a fair comparison. The fact that it doesn't and compensates by just football quality says it all. I can go on and on about Leo. Ive written multiple long essays about him during school and i have a 10,000 word essay of him right now in my phone. Obsession? Religion? Fanaticism? Yeah all of those and more. Gracias Leo! Can't wait to see you back home! Get you drunk again and 90,000 culers Hails The King. Grown men crying for The Messiah. Gracias, thank you, terima kasih. 💙❤
In order to objectively judge who is the GOAT in the game you must evaluate multiple elements: A player's completeness (passing, dribbling, scoring, assisting, etc.) A player's influence on his team. A player's consistency throughout the years. A player's performance in key moments. How many goals has Messi scored without been a #9? How many assists he has had and how he has organized his teams plays without him been a midfielder? How many years of consistency has Messi had? He won the balo d'or in his early twenties and continued winning it until a year ago. Messi performs better against better sides and has even been MVP in most of the finals he has played. No doubt Messi is the GOAT.
I'm definitely not a hardcore fan of soccer/football, but the soccer GOAT topic interests me from an outsiders perspective. Most takes I read seem based on fans watching Messi and CR7. For the few discussions I've seen, the fans also seem too young to have seen Maradona or Pele (the only other 2 I hear in the convo). So for the sport, do you have to actually have seen the player to make an opinion? My personal priority for any sport is wining #1 and everything else factored in after that since the purpose of all sports I know is to win in the end. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but Messi seems like people's favorite to watch even if he doesn't win the most. CR7 wins more, but the separation is watching them on the pitch. Maradona and Pele historically seem more revered for their winning in addition to their skill. Can someone give me a little more insight?
@@gumballwaterson1957 Messi literally has the second most trophies in history won by an individual behind Dani Alves,whom he will surpass by the end of this current season.
@@cristianalexander8861 Just trying to learn more about the topic since I don't follow the sport closely enough to tell if an opinion is BS or not. CR7 vs. Messi seemed to always break down to CR7 (and team) winning more, but Messi with more individual awards and having a more beautiful game to watch. Maradona and Pele lore seems based on wins they produced and skills or moment, though I don't really hear much about how Maradona and Pele played as compared with Messi which is mostly what I hear/see/read. That's why I asked if the sport is one where the opinion of a player is mostly based on eye test. It's not trolling. Legit question from someone's who's ignorant but curious. There's no way I'm going to watch a ton of games of any of the 4 to get an idea of what everyone else is saying, but I do want to get ideas on how the conversation is framed.
Maradona single-handedly took a mediocre Napoli side to 2 titles & a Uefa Cup. Messi & CR7 never played for mediocre teams and were surrounded by top top quality all throughout their club careers! Messi played in far superior teams than CR7 did but when FCB’s backs were against the wall Messi never stepped up and rescued them against Roma Liverpool Bayern Juventus when Real needed CR7 to do the business he did! that’s what the greats do.Both amazing players it’s fine margins that separates them
So what European titles did CR7 win with Juve if CR7 stood up when he was needed? How many leagues did CR7 stand up for to win for Real? Plus your using the Liverpool tie? Didn't Messi score 2? And the Bayern game that I'm presuming the 8-2 tie. Did you expect Messi to score 7 whilst also defending? Or are you taking about the 2015 tie where he scored 2? Cherry picking ties is so weak, its embarrassing.
Ronaldo carried a crap Portugal to its first ever title, carried a crap United with only the goalkeeper performing by himself at the age of 37, Messi has never done that before.
I don’t agree about Cristiano Ronaldo. To me he is one of if not the most overrated player ever. Plus, he always played in great teams full with big players. Real Madrid won LaLiga and UCL in the same season with old dogs like Benzema, Modric, Kroos (same players Cristiano played with but much older). He was a great stats machine and for the most part his goals benefited him. Real had a great team, Man Utd won 2 more titles after he left (Sir Alex could win the EPL with people like Anderson and Fletcher). And he didn’t do nothing in Juve. They were clearly more dominant before him. However, Maradona is the greatest. Messi is second.
Haha u keep saying that but diferent times and I bet Maradona wouldn't be able to do that with Napoli in the Era and no single handedly no he didn't cuz he wasn't a defender or a mid filder or a goal keeper right? Stop saying that stupid shit
@@gerardomalazdrewicz7514 PORTUGAL VS BRAZIL ARGENTINA 😂. MESSI WOULD RETIRE AT 25 IF HE IS IN PORTUGAL LETS BE HONEST . MESSI PLAYED FOR HISTORIC ARGENTINA . R9 GOT CARRIED BY PRIME BRAZIL
@gerardomalazdrewicz7514 PORTUGAL VS BRAZIL ARGENTINA 😂. MESSI WOULD RETIRE AT 25 IF HE IS IN PORTUGAL LETS BE HONEST . MESSI PLAYED FOR HISTORIC ARGENTINA . R9 GOT CARRIED BY PRIME BRAZIL
@@rogger972 No matter how many times you repeat it, does not make it true. Remember pre-Qatar (at its start, that is) Portugal was considered a better squad than Argentina. Portugal finally won Euro when found Cris' best position: cheerleader.
Messi has been carrying the whole FC Barcelona on his shoulders since Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, David etc left. Bartemou killed the spirit still they were playing UCLs till 8-2 happened with FC Bayern Munich.
In terms of just elegance, playfulness and skills I still think there was no one better than Ronaldinho. Messi is beautiful to watch but even he just can't reach Ronaldinho in those aspects. Zidane was also magical with the ball...
@@ShiNooBi1986 Agreed, even though his peak was quite short lived because of his injuries, R9 was pretty much the best thing I have seen in football to date. Messi is just pure effectiveness with the ball and probably no one can match him at that
@@jonasjonas8358 yea Messi is Arguably the GOAT. His close control, dribbling, agility, quick brain is something I've never seen and probably never will. But the Kid in me will always love R9s pace, power, Brazilian flair and finishing with power in both feet. R9 had it all and then some. Ibra, Henry, Ronnie and Messi all Idolised him too remember
Considering his guest is a chess champion: If there was a football engine who plays perfect football. It would play very similar to messi. That’s how good messi is. He plays football like a watches the game from above.
My dad would disagree with you. He is 75 years old, he's watched all of the greats including Maradonna, Cruyff, Maldini, Shearer etc. His favourite player was Pele until around 2011-2012 when i made him watch a random La Liga match. I don't even remember which team Barça played against but Messi scored a brace and made multiple complete dribbles. This was the year he scored 91 goals. A few weeks after that, he starts sending me TH-cam videos of Messi's highlight and came to the conclusion, Messi is just better. He's a die hard Brazilian fan btw and again, Pele was his favourite since he was a teenager. But few games of Leo is all it took.
No dude, it’s called soccer. It was invented in the greatest country in the world(America). We wear socks here when playing, that’s why it’s called soccer.
@@bobzyurunkel i think you have been living in your parents' basement...can you travel outside USA and see what is going on? Football was invented in the UK and internationally is known as football(the most famous sport in the world)...
As some random person in the youtube comments once said: If you ask an engineer to make a football player they will make Ronaldo, if you ask an artist to make a football player they will make Messi.
Pre injury Ronaldo was probably the best footballer the world ever saw. Ronaldinho was probably the most magical. That said, Messi's longevity at the top doing the impossible will be unmatched. This was supposed to be Messi's age, but the fact that a mere mortal that is Cristiano Ronaldo almost matched him for close to 2 decades is also worthy of respect.
Disagree, even R9 and Ronaldinho at their peaks don't come close to Messi. Messi could playmake like Ronaldinho, dribble like R9 and score like CR7. Not to mention pass like Laudrup.
Pre injury ronaldo had 15 goals in 43 champions league games, won 0 champions leagues and 1 league title despite playing for the best teams in the world. He’s so overrated it’s not even funny
I think Magnus and Lex touch on the difference in the two debates here. With Lebron/Jordan seeming pretty close, the arguments of quantifiables and unquantifiables can swing you either way depending on your mood. With Messi, everything is so stacked in his favour quantifiably that a case for anyone else based on unquantifiables starts to look a bit insane.
A rundown of some of the greatest players to ever kick a ball, and famous quotes by other great players about them. I was lucky enough to see Maradona in his prime, and i've never saw anyone ever have such control over a ball, or an Orange, or rolled up Socks, the man verged on the Supernatural with the talent he had. No other player comes close to what Maradona could do, his close control was mind bending. "We (the Barcelona squad) watched Maradona in training kick a ball way up in the sky 13 times in a row without letting the ball hit the ground once and never take more than 3 steps before kicking the ball again. Us being the Barcelona team fancied a shot at this ourselves, we all managed 3 kicks before running about like headless chickens trying to catch the ball, we all failed miserably." Messi was brilliant in his 20's, untouchable in his era when running at players, frightening even. "Messi's probably the greatest player of all time, certainly the best of the modern era." Ronaldo was fantastic too, brilliant beyond belief in his prime, unstoppable at his best. "I was marking Ronaldo all game, i certainly remember his shirt number, cause i only ever saw the back of him the whole game." Iniesta was arguably the finest playmaker of his generation, he made great players look average at times and took the ball for a walk around some of the finest players of his era, including the Referee twice lol. He was magical to watch. Brilliant. "He just walked the ball through our Midfield as if they weren't there, and we were Brazil, the best in the World before the match, we weren't the best after the match." Zidane was the best of his generation undoubtedly. For a man so tall and heavily built he moved with the grace of a ballerina, and his touch was World class. At his best he was the greatest player of his generation. "Someone told me he wasn't that tall and could be pushed off the ball at times, i never even saw the ball the entire game, if i'm marking him next game i want to change position." Johan Cruyff was arguably the finest player to have a skill move named after him (the Cruyff turn) and he reinvented what silky Football was, is, and can be. "He turned me like i wasn't there, he ghosted me not once, not twice, but three times, that was a hard shift." Distefano won the European Cup 5 times in a row with the great Real Madrid team of the 50's and 60's. He practically invented the modern Football player back in his day. "I stood beside Distefano in the tunnel before the match, and that was as close as i got to him the whole game." Pelé was ridiculous at pinpoint passing, his inventiveness was next level, he could score, pass, flick, trick, you name it he could do it. Marvelous player. "He dummied me and made me look like a Schoolboy Footballer, the ball went one way, he went the other, and i was stood like a deer caught in headlights." The GOAT is an idea for the ages, every generation has players that define their era, move Football forward in such a way as to reinvent the game entirely. Who's the GOAT? The one that inspired you most i suppose...
Good job remembering people that is not usually remembered. Cruyff said: "I can play like Di Stéfano (1), but can't play like Pelé" (1) Was probably the only one ever that could deliver on that, and did deliver. GOAT is a very short list, and I pretty much agree with this list as long as Ronaldo shirt number is 9. In that list, I believe anyone could be argued for it.
The only people who think Ronaldo over Messi are: Man United fans, Real Madrid fans, the Portuguese and former teammates. And even some former teammates still say Messi 😂
Yes, because he has proven himself across different countries and has had more of an impact on the international stage. Messi was in a club (not even teams) built around him from when he was 17, and didn’t do much special in FRANCE
@@Bumbling.blithering.buffoons Mate Ronaldo can’t even get a game ahead of Elanga 😂 Built around Messi? Ronaldo joins the most successful team in each country and waits in the box. He’s a finisher, that’s it. Messi has done more in the last few weeks for PSG than Ronaldo has in months! Messi actually has more goals against England’s top 6 than Ronaldo and not even played in the Prem 😂 embarrassing And Messi has had a far greater impact on the international stage than Ronaldo. How many World Cup finals has Ronaldo featured in? He only spent 20 minutes on the pitch in the Euro final 😂 A Euro final btw - any other version previous he wouldn’t have even made it out of the group stage finishing 3rd without a single win.
@@jezcorrigan651 messi has been average (for how good he is) at best for Argentina. Fact. And yes, there were a number of Barca sides built around messi. Do you not know the history of when he first joined Barca as a kid??? It rarely gets spoken about funnily enough… but that sums up Barca anyway, absolute joke of a club And playing in a World Cup final doesn’t count for much. Kleberson was a World Cup winner and was the most effective midfielder during that tournament…
@@Bumbling.blithering.buffoons Keep deluding yourself. If the greatest team of his generation was built around him then there isn’t a much higher compliment than that.
@@jezcorrigan651 deluding? Just stated some facts. I’m glad I’m not one of those weird adults that’s gets heated over the messi ronaldo debate. They’re both 2 of the greatest to ever grace a pitch. But neither are THE greatest. Just my opinion
Also, regarding allocation of talent, another thing to consider is adaptability. Some players adapt to different teamsters and coaches and systems quicker than others.
Pelè is the best of all time. Messi a very close second. This generation just doesn't understand Pelè because he's so far removed from them and there isn't as much video of him in games.
@@cerveshred even the limited video we have (and the stuff from his time playing professionally in America doesn't count because other than Kyle Rote Jr. No one could play) shows his amazing skill. I believe a case can be made that at his peak he was the greatest athlete of all time too.
@@JimPfaff LOL what makes Pele the greatest football player ever? If you made the case for Maradona being the greatest ever that would be hard to dispute but Pele honestly I don't get the hype he played in a mediocre league.
@@Hussanali77 clearly his World Cup record stands out. Listen, I was always a huge Maradona fan. He was clearly awesome. But to Pelè, he had a better career. Played in COPA averaging nearly a goal per game (692 games 618 goals). Three World Cup championships. More than twice the goals as Maradona in the World Cup. He has 77 goals in 92 games on the Brazil national teal.wit 77 goals. Messi has more goals (92) but in 162 games. I could keep going. The numbers are astounding. And football around the world is much like American baseball in that you can compare players in different eras well since the foundations of rhe game haven't substantively changed. Personal conditioning is better now, but that becomes an inconsequential difference in that relative conditioning was the same for players in different eras with their contemporaries. This isn't really isn't a controversial thing ranking Pelè the best. You may disagree. But it's not at all controversial. And I say that as about the biggest Messi fan who is a native American.
No disrespect to Carlsen but if some one dismisses the World Cup saying "it's overrated due to small sample size" they can never and should never be taken seriously. If World Cup was indeed so overrated, then why has Messi failed to perform exceptionally well at the tournament so far? Pele was exceptional in all his World Cup tournaments. Maradona was fantastic in three of the four WCs he participated. Messi on the whole however has been really good in only one tournament (2014). Pretty much same for Cristiano Ronaldo as well who was great only in 2018. What this proves is that performing big under the pressure of the World Cup is not easy one bit. Here are my GoATs: 1) Pele, Meazza 2) Hector Scarone, Leonidas Da Silva, Jose Manuel Moreno, Maradona, 3) Arthur Friedenreich, Matthias Sindelar, Zizinho, Di Stefano, Duncan Edwards, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Messi 5:44 Holy Moly!!! Carlsen is a total Messi fanboy LMAO. Mentions Higuain "fluffed" the chance but conveniently forgets how Messi too missed an easy chance in a 1v1 against Neuer. Also, btw Maradona took Argentina to another World Cup final too in 1990.
he's right tho, in just a month using your logic now all of a sudden messi is better than almost everyone in your list just because he wins the wc. It's hard to take someone's opinion seriously when they can only formulate an opinion thanks to a single trophy without truly understanding how football works
I mean aside from the statistics, remember Messi scored 91 goals in a single season, watching this man play is just magic and only by experiencing him can you see how special a player he is. He makes the beautiful game reach an echelon truly divine
This guy is not serious lol Maradona didn’t score more than 400 goals and didn’t win UCL but it was the matter in which he won that World Cup. Considered the greatest individual performance in any WC, 5G+5A but outside of that: goal of the tournament, most chances created, the amount of fouls received. On the other page: Messi has scored twice as much goals, assisted over 300 times (he owns that record), has won every single tournament except for Confederations and official WC, top scorer in CONMEBOL, Argentina, Barca and 2nd top in European competitions. He is the top scorer of all time excluding penalties also. His chances created and ability to read and dictate the pace of game is what sets him apart
If you watch soccer, Messi definitely is better than Ronaldo. We're seeing it now with how limited Ronaldo is compared to Messi. Ronaldo can only be in and near the final third, while Messi can start an offence from the half and sometimes even behind it. Watch some of his near assists and near misses. There is no debate for the best player in this era.
People who genuinely argue Ronaldo over Messi haven't watched them play. Messi is more clinical, a significantly better passer (most important thing in football), a significantly better dribbler, has better vision, better set-piece taker, stronger on the ball and overall just a much better footballer. Ronaldo i better in headers and pens.
Most of us will not be able to thumbs up the video, since you did not use the correct term for the sport. In English the sport is called football. If every country but one calls it football it's best to call it football, as that's what it is. Best regards. Not a super serious post, but still factual. With love.
I mean, technically Australia and USA both use "soccer" which the USA, at least, got from the English so....? And since it's pretty clear you know the USA uses soccer, it's kinda hard to say "in English" unless you're implying British English is the end all be all. Not super serious, but just saying. All love though
Messi is the greatest and the most effective, but I much prefer Zidane's aesthetics. The way he moved and seemed to command space and time with classical majesty. Messi is a bit of a mess running like a little unstopable mouse.
Yeah messi is better than zidane but there is something about how zidane touches the ball as if he can turn the ball into a cotton, his dribbling is so smooth and delicate
Great take by Magnus. Messi is by far the goat, even without the wc. He has played for very unbalanced argentina-teams his whole career and carried them in 2014 to the final and won best player of the tournament as a losing finalist. That never happens. His 2021 copa win cemented his greatness again, but he has absolutely nothing left to prove. Just enjoy him
"and won best player of the tournament as a losing finalist. That never happens." Modric, Kahn, Forlan, Zidane, Ronaldo (98)... Giving that award to a losing finalist (or 3rd place) is pretty much the standard in the past 30 years.
I am Brasilian and we have a rivalry with Argentina ever since the Maradona days But Messi is something special, I have never seen a player do so many genius moves in a soccer match than Lionel Messi. He is undoubtedly in the same Mount Rushmore as Pele and Maradona as one of the goats! I hope he wins the 2022 world cup and retires, mic drop style!!!
@@HandsomeFlackoJodye that take is more shite lol he utilised it at a very youn age doing what he did and what he won. It was a shame he got those injuries tbh but CR7 ain't even close to 20 year old Ronaldo. Ask Ibra, Henry and Messi lol the real ones know but you can have your opinion that's fine man ✌️
They were not good! Argentina changed their system just before the World Cup started became they conceded way too many goals leading up to the Tournament.
Yeah, Monaco's substitute GK Romero, Man Utd bench warmer Marcos Rojo, Garay who was sold to Zenit St Petersburg, Enzo Perez who was sold to Valencia to become a bench warmer, Federico Fernandez who was a substitute at Getafe, Augusto Fernandez from Celta are good players to you? And Aguero that season played just 23 league games due to injury and Di Maria was sold to Man Utd that summer by Real Madrid and he got injured before the final. You see a defence pair of Rojo, Garay and Romero as gk, Mascherano as DM and think they are good compared to Mats Hummels, Baoteng, Mertesacker, Lahm at defence, Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Ozil,, Kroos at MF and Neuer as GK?
@@issi529 The guy is not right just as I am not necessarily right either, it's a subjective opinion, there is no black and white, right or wrong in this. The main reason many to most Argentinians still don't put Messi above Maradona is because Maradona won them the World Cup. That is a fact, you can argue with the reasoning behind it all you want, as it is an opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that people who rate the WC rate it. Either way, pretty presumptuous of you to assume I'm 'going along with the hype'. Small tip, just because someone doesn't share an opinion of yours, doesn't mean they don't have the same knowledge or are not aware of the same facts you are, people come to different conclusions with the same variables in place, that's how free thinking works
@@njldst2007 Indeed. Its a opinion. But if people think that a wc makes a player bigger or better is also a opinion. And not a fact. Messi won much more than maradona in his career thats also a fact.
Obviously Ronaldo is still a great player, but it's hard to deny Messi when you compare the two. Ronaldo plays football at the human limit, while Messi seems to surpass it.
Football discussion in Lex Fridman channel, never though I'd see this in my lifetime. It is now complete. Also he is spot on about the World Cup. I have a genius behind my previously held opinion now lol so go talk to him.
While confessing that I may be guilty of nostalgia bias (the mirror image and equally perilous opposite number of recency bias), it is astonishing to me how many people discount Pelé in the GOAT debate. He was the best player on three WC winning squads, scattered over twelve years. Yes, he was injured for much of the 1962 tournament. He was nonetheless that team's best player. Yes, he lags far behind in official FIFA goal tally. But, ~ 450 of his goals were scored in non-sanctioned friendlies, most of which were scored against the best European club sides. Speaking of Europe, his lack of presence in Europe is frequently cited as a mark against him. On the contrary, it was a strength. In his era, international transfers were rare and intercontinental transfers were practically unheard of. The best club football in the world was played in South America, not Europe. In other words, he played and dominated against the best available competition. Longevity - yes, players like Messi, Ronaldo, and Zlatan are remarkable for their incredibly long careers. Pelé played competitive club football for twenty years. And he did it with 1960s medical technology and antiquated training methods. If he had been born in 1980, rather than 1940, he could have played well into his forties. Finally, cultural importance and transcendence... Yes, Messi is an entity unto himself. The man is practically a sovereign nation of one. But, at the peak of his popularity, Pelé was bigger. Globally, he was a more recognizable brand name than Coca Cola, McDonald's, and Disney. And he did it without the Internet, social media, and 24/7/365 live sports coverage. Heads of State literally waited in line simply to shake his hand. When he landed in a war torn country, the shooting stopped so that soldiers from both sides could watch a match in which he was playing. What's more, the match was played without incident. I completely understand why a person who wasn't alive to watch him play, might not consider him. After all, Ferenc Puskas isn't on my list, despite his undeniable greatness. But, given the totality of his achievement and a true historical understanding of his rightful place, Pelé deserves consideration from all generations today, as well as those yet unborn.
"Take two, now say Ronaldo [is your favorite Madrid player]" The Madrid organization was the one that kept pushing the GOAT "debate" that never existed.
He's like Wilt Chamberlain. The game was too different back then. Fewer teams, players, different rules and officiating standards, tactics and style of play. It's almost a different sport. Also, many Brazilians will tell you that Garincha was the better Brazilian footballer.
Some Messi fans need to be respectful. Ronaldo is the greatest in my opinion and a lot of other people. Stop acting like there's no debate. You're entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to theirs. Be respectful. Even from a pure aesthetic standpoint it goes to Ronaldinho in my opinion.
Messi, I played Futbol for years and Messi is the only one player in which I can't even dream about doing the thing he does. I mean, the rest top players are great but you can't do what he does sometimes, it's like he is able to play in slowmo.
Messi is not the GOAT. One of the best, definitively, he had ideal conditions in Barcelona, but when playing for example for Argentina, he had mediocre performance. A bit overrated compared to other players that always were outstanding despite the team they played in.
Yeah... keep telling yourself the midiocre argument with Argentina while ignoring he reached 5 finals with them. Keep teeling yourself that he "had it easy in Barcelona" and pretent Barça didn't go down hard after he left. Just to show everyone that was Messi who hidded that cracks at the club.
You realise how many different coaches changed the style of play at Barcelona? Many of these players who change clubs go to the best clubs with really good players where they are already in dominating teams with or without them. When messi left barca they still haven't won anything and literally had to spend a lot of money on players trying to get to a good side again and they might have finally done it this year
Messi makes things so easy he’s so smart with not much effort he doesn’t run much but knows when to run and his vision is second to none. Ronaldo is the hardest worker and IMO best finisher as well as the most athletic and will almost always step up in the biggest moment. Ronaldo could single handedly lift teams out of relegation, Messi doesn’t have the work rate Ronaldo does to do that tho.
He also did it with cocaine. While Messi dominated europe for at least 15 years. Consistency in a much tougher tactical era. And btw, in Maradonna's era, no one was spending millions.
Best at their sport ever: LeBron Nadal and Djokovic C. Ronaldo and Messi If Ronaldo Nazario trained his body the way he should have, he would have been untouchable as the Best Ever
My friends who don’t know shit about the sport this I hate Ronaldo because I vouch for Messi, but here’s the thing: there’s no shame in being #2, because he is. The peak of Madrid, he was a target man getting support from some of the best creators on the planet. Marcelo, Carvajal, Modric, Kroos, James, Isco, bale, Benz, all got the ball to him to finish most of the chances. Not enough words I can type right now will explain what Messi does on the field. He’s a legit alien
Are you serious? Messi played in Barca for all his best years with basically a dream team or Spanish players who were European and world champions and you’re saying Ronaldo had great players around him? Lol. There are a lot of good arguments to defend Messi as the goat but if you’re gonna say Ronaldo in RM had no merit because of his team, then Messi had even less since his team was better by all measures.
@@ricardoalmeida4719 Messi dropped deep and was never a target man in his career. Most outside the box goals in history. & from 2015-2021 he CARRIED the fuck out of Barca and was absolutely not part of any super team. Suarez got fat as fuck and gave us pretty much nothing in the UCL. Ronaldo was the focus of the team. Feed him the ball as close to goal as possible. Marcelo Carvajal Vazquez spamming crosses, James Isco Kroos Modric supporting, Benzema wasted most of his individual years with a supportive role. I don’t get how anybody who has watched both over the years could think he’s better. He’s #2 and that should hold its weight but most people who talk about either player really don’t watch either week in week out to see the truth
Full conversation with Magnus Carlsen: th-cam.com/video/0ZO28NtkwwQ/w-d-xo.html
STATISTICALLY LEBRON isnt passing JORDAN..
JORDAN won more in less years.
JORDAN also averages 30PPG and lead the league in POINTS 10 times.
LEBRON scores more due to the simple fact that he played more seasons and most of those seasons in a ERA with games ending with 120 POINTS.
Lol this guy is stupid . Ronaldo is the greatest no debate .
Really liked that my chess GOAT defended my Football GOAT. He didn't react on twitter on Messi's WC win, I hope you get his reaction soon on Channel.
Messi is the most aesthetically, majestic and creative player I’ve ever seen. It’s an experience to watch him play.
Your thoughts on Ronaldinho?
Messi is the goat 🐐 but Ronaldinho is the most skilful of all time
It's an experience to eat a sandwich
I'll cry wherever I am the day he announces his retirement
Zidane
Messi is like Maradona without the self destructive tendencies, hedonism, drugs, alcohol and womanising. He had stability and his genius talent flowered to full beauty
but it gave maradonna the edge. took mediocre teams napoli and argentina to glory
Both are the most naturally gifted players of all time.
In terms of just elegance, playfulness and skills I still think there was no one better than Ronaldinho. Messi is beautiful to watch but even he just can't reach Ronaldinho in those aspects.
also without world cup :D
@@PsychoGallagher Ronaldinho was more of a trickster. Messi dribbles as if he can see 10 seconds into the future.
Carlsen is a Real Madrid fanatic and still says Messi. So ke knows something about talent and genius, he himself has it!
only manu/madrid fans say ronaldo is the goat every other football fan/player thats not associated with ronaldo has said messi is the goat its common knowledge idk how its even a debate
bro madrid fans knows that messi is the greatest they just dont admit it
@@jiahaogoh2822 I'm a real madrid fan before cr7 came and i always said that messi is better and I get called a plastic fan everytime haha. Both are great, but Messi is just a genius
@@alibee2083 i think most ‘real’ real madrid fans would also agree messi is the goat haha. not to discredit ronaldo im heavily inspired by his work ethic and his life story but watching messi play is just incomparable
I just happen to live in Barca at the time and I had loved football all my life. (2009) And I actually couldn't believe it was real! I always wondered what a nightmare it must have been for Madrid or any other team to had to go up against Messi. A player who could seemingly make goals from out of nothing. It was mind-boggling to watch in real time. How do you stop him? There was no reliable way! Play rough, he'd just... somehow ride the tackle, dribble a couple of players and pass it into the goal. Try to force him to his right? Well, you just gave him time to dismantle the whole defense! I was never a religious man but I swear to whatever is holy, that man, Messi, was a miracle. Words are not enough.
After this world cup, this debate is practically closed
It is definitely closed.
it was closed long before the WC
Messi just became the goat today it's official
2011-12 Messi was the greatest player of all time, his peak is higher than everybody's peak. And consistently he's won Golden Shoe and been on top with assists. His international play is often scrutinized but he got to a WC final and constantly has to play Brazil, Colombia, Uruguay, Peru, Chile, etc.
Not even Messi's peak imo, goal scoring wise sure but he's had better years.
But I guess that just shows how great he is, because for anyone else that would be by far their best, not even debatable
@@yoyo-tx6zg it was his peak, madness to say otherwise.
@@benjones4974 goalscoring wise. But 14/15 as an overall player is even better imo. Even 18/19, the way he carried an incredibly average team close to a champions league was one of the craziest things I've ever seen in football. But if you just want to focus on goals and not actually watch the football itself then sure, 2012 was his peak
@@yoyo-tx6zg I agree with you. 11/12 he played as a pure centre forward in the strongest, most creative club side of all time, so of course he was going to score a ridiculous amount. Since then it's pretty clear if you watch him year after year that he became an even better player. More creative, more intelligent, better mentality and leadership.
As a Barça and Messi fan, what I realised is that, Cristiano Ronaldo is the pinnacle of what every footballer should try to achieve. He has reached the limits of what is humanely possible by a footballer on the basis of sheer hardwork and dedication. His out of the world fitness even at this age, will power and never give up attitude will always be a source of inspiration for generations to come.
But Messi, he is the gift from the Footballing Gods. I remember an interview where Cristiano was asked about his dream goal, he said something along the lines of "... dribbling past the whole 11 and scoring a goal. But it is like a PlayStation goal. I don't know, maybe someday I can score." Messi has not just one, several goals doing the same. You see him play, it's like magic, makes you smile, fills you with ecstasy. Does things we can only dream of. We Barça fans are indebted to him, for all the years we have witnessed his wizardry.
Both of them pushed each other over the years and it's hard to believe that they are nearing the end to their careers.
Well put, even as a huge fan of ronaldo, the levels of difference in terms of natural talent and ability is and should never be in question. But I think greatness is more than talent - and that’s the only way an argument can be made. Like Diego made meady teams champions, was coked up and living the life. Playing on a surface that had mini hills on and defenders that tried breaking your legs. Also the 80s was football at a developed stage. For me maradona is the greatest and if he played in this era he’d be greater than messi
i have to agree with you when i played as a kid/teenager i quickly realized that i will probably never be able to play like messi stylewise (not even talking about skill here) but ronaldos style was more suited for me i was fast strong and could jump like a kangaroo so i just tried to be like cr7. And i honestly don’t understand the “hate” from both sides. My generation (born late 90s-2000) was truly blessed to see those two legends grow, compete and dominate
Same old argument, that Ronaldo is just hard work lol. Sporting isn't recruiting every player out of the streets at 11 years old, bringing them away from their families, just for them to work hard you know? There has to be talent already there. Overall they are diferent players, even thou young CR7 was dribling past several opponents, he was never going to be that type of player forever, tall players are rarely gifted with that. You need a short person to create such a player, like Messi, it's the only way to keep balance is having a short center of gravity. Then Ronaldo is a player that uses tricks and expects a reaction of the opponent to move the ball where he wants to go. Which he was able to do for a long time. The quickness, reaction time he used to do this is one of his many talents. Many players have this talent, but it can't be thought I believe, you can try it, but you can only go so far with it. When it comes to dribling CR7 was one of those rare guys that could put the ball infront of anyone and get there first, I remember Thierry Henry, and R9 could do this aswell. R9 was crazy with it, because he did it being obese in the end of his career, shit you don't see in movies. This can be trained of course not to the extent of a R9 but yeah... Messi is diferent the way he dribles is using several techniques, if you go and watch his plays he does the same things, it's about 10 techniques/dribles/ball control(he does at high speed, which is nuts). He does them in a split second, always with his left foot, they are there automatized, for when he needs them, and he always makes the right choice. YOU CAN TRAIN this. Reaching his level, that is another story. Then he also has crazy acceleration, explosiveness. You can't go past several people without it. Football is all about the first few meters. And then when he is in trouble he does the same techniques but with is right foot, and that is a whole new level. CR7 relied in tricks/feints more then dribling, and Messi just dribled over anyone. Both playmakers, Ronaldo more important in defense to his team, way better aerial ability (then anyone ever I believe). We can't even compare them much behond this. Messi has always been the same type of player and Ronaldo has been like 3 diferent players that I can remember, he adapted his game. And he had too, because he grew much taller then he was when he arrived at Man Utd and because he played diferent positions and teams. Many good players disapear because they can't do this. They are great at 19 years old and at 22 they disapear. I believe that was where his hard work mentality became a factor. He coulda been a wonder kid(well he already had a balllon dor) that "flopped" after he joined Madrid but he went on to become a Real Madrid legend. These 2 deserve to be reconised as the best ever, because nobody else has been at the top for 15 years before. Only them Great players have 3 great seasons in them max, this is why we can't argue Ronaldinho, R9 in the same sentence as this guys, not even Maradona and I believe he was way better then Messi. And it's going to be a long time before we see a player like them again.
@@lordmarshall642 listen Cr7 is talented but Messi is too Gifted You can't be Ronaldo with hard work .
Messi has never dribbled past 11 players bro, ever
Messi passes the eye test, by being arguably the best dribbler and passer of a ball of all time and the statistics, by being statistically the best goalscorer and having the most assists of all time. He’s done it with great teams and he has single handedly carried some poorer teams. There is no debate, he is simply the GOAT.
I hope he does well this World Cup
No, there is a debate, hence the existence of the debate.
@@craigr4763 just because people choose to have a debate, doesnt mean that the debate is valid. It is overwhelmingly in favour of messi, it is like debating flat earth. Yes people can debate it, but its silly.
What do you mean statistically? Statistically Ronaldo's the best goal scorer EVER in champions league and overall
@@zak2659 I agree with you in principle that not all debates are justifiable, you're absolutely right, but I think you're wrong to suggest that it applies here. I'm not just imagining that there's a debate -there actually is one, and crucially it's not just among random people on the internet, but among scholars. Sorry, the debate is perfectly legitimate.
I'vre never seen a single person who is both smart and analytical that is actually interested in the game and not just a casual fan, say that CR7 is close to Messi or better than him. Every single time that type of person understands Messi is better, whether they're Barcelona fans, Madrid fans, Portuguese or Argentine, or from anywhere in the world. It's just too obvious for anyone who actually interests themselves in learning about the game and not just reducing it to whether someone scored a goal or not in a particular game or who runs quicker or is taller lmao. Good for Carlsen for being able to analyse and conclude logically on a very obvious topic despite his Real Madrid fandom.
I am a casual football fan and even I have a hard time comprehending how anyone can say Ronaldo is better than Messi.
Messi hasn't done anything since Xavi n Iniesta left. Finally won the Copa America after 15 tries vs the almighty Chile.
From Eibar to Nantes assist hat trick merchant now 😁GOAT!
@@doliniplanini2260 Wont change the fact that ball on the feet Messi is a better player and there's nothing you can do about it, atp you're just trying to be different but one day you'll understand
@@doliniplanini2260 ok sherrif man
To say not even close to Messi, it’s a bit exaggerated.. CR7 is along with Messi one of the greatest. You don’t need to be choosing. Some ppl might prefer, Maradona ,others Pelé, others Cruyff.. Messi didn’t invent football nor you decide who’s the best for everyone else.
Also, on the big matches, against the big teams when it really matters Messi tends to shy away. Just an observation, dribbling 5 players of Getafe, is not the same than dribbling 5 player of England’s national team on a World Cup quarter final..
Messi is magical player , he reads the game like no one else , he gives great assists. He shoots hard , he dribbles beautifully . Messi is above others for sure
Thankfully we got to see Messi and Ronaldo at the same time. So cool they have completely different styles and personalities. I agree Messi is the GOAT, but take nothing away from Ronaldo. Together they somehow improved the greatest rivalry in all of sports in El Clásico.
So refreshing to see a comment about these two acknowledging both their greatness. Absolutely agree
@Free One Ronaldinho hahahhaha
Ishowspeed😂
I dont acknowledge ronaldo's greatness. and i dont fucking have to. stop shoving it down people's throats. I think that ronaldinho, kaka, zidane, ronaldo phenomeno were all better players. I'm tired of people acting like it's a fucking crime to say that ronaldo isn't great.
lmao ronaldo is dogshit compared to messi.
DEBATE IS ENDED
i already liked magnus and now i like him even more knowing that he also preffer messi over cr7 because messi is just something else..just seeing him dribbling you know he is a different kind
he quit chess to drink live on stream with 19 year olds...
Messi's ability to assist the goal is so underrated. He has such a gravity on offense with the ball in his possession that he manipulates the defense with his insane dribbling, creates weaknesses, then dishes out the perfect pass for the easy score by a teammate. This is what is lacking in cr7's game, and what really puts messi at the top of goat convo imo.
Certified 🐐 after the WC.
There’s one difference about Messi that puts him above all the rest. It’s just the simple eye test. Watching Messi play is beautiful. Truly beautiful. I’m not sure I can say that about any other player.
I’m not part of this debate, but for me the first time I saw Brazilian Ronaldo, it was something that I have never seen before in the history of Football, it changed how football players moved, dribbled, ran, defended. So when Messi, Cristiano and many other great players came, I thought they were great, but nothing out of the pre-existing game, and they didn’t do drugs nor lost their careers for injuries, so they achieved amazing things. Good on them!
@Chiave - Interestingly, even Messi himself said that Ronaldo Nazario was his favourite player and something similar to what you said about him. However, for me, Pele was the best of all time. No question about it.
Facts even after career ending injury R9 was very special. Most complete player of all the time.
@@wiseonwords You weren’t even alive when he was playing 🤣🤣
@@wiseonwords lol padded record Pele?
@@wiseonwords He was a good striker but definitely not the greatest.
After the World Cup, this is definitely true.
Debate over
The fact the lad has one foot and pretty much one move and even still after 17 odd years no one's figured out how to stop him basically says it all.
Messi is priceless if you truly understand and love football. He's a glitch in the matrix, especially in his peak years (2009-2016). He made me a football fan because in 2007, i didn't know half of the rules in football. I was only 11 and my team at the time was Chelsea. Just because of the color blue and Super Frank Lampard.
Then by sheer accident i saw Pep's Barça and even then, in my little kids head, i knew it was something else. How i wish to go back to that time and relive that era with my current understanding of the beautiful game. It was truly peak football.
Pep's Barça belongs in the pantheon of football and Messi is crown jewel. That was 13 years ago and the things he has done since? Wow wow wow. He's just a freak.
In the words of Pep himself, we will never see another player like him ever. And i genuinely believe that. So many names have been thrown in to the pile of "next Messi". Yet not even 1 of em can even do 0.005% of Messi Magic.
Messi's reign and era in La Liga is untouchable. La Liga is tied with EPL as the toughest league in Europe now, back then? It was The League to play in and Messi dominates it.
If only La Liga speaks english, then it would be a fair comparison. The fact that it doesn't and compensates by just football quality says it all.
I can go on and on about Leo. Ive written multiple long essays about him during school and i have a 10,000 word essay of him right now in my phone. Obsession? Religion? Fanaticism? Yeah all of those and more.
Gracias Leo! Can't wait to see you back home! Get you drunk again and 90,000 culers Hails The King. Grown men crying for The Messiah. Gracias, thank you, terima kasih. 💙❤
"The world cup is a small sample size" and yet those samples are taken from all across the globe; from every corner of the earth.
😂😂
In just a few matches. Everyone with a brain knows that this is prone to distortions.
WRONG! Harry Maguire is THE absolute GOAT 🐐
exactly!
Manchester United wins even when Maguire isn't on the pitch. That's class!
@@mickeytete9036 - Many would say that Ten Hag has finally discovered Maguire's best position - on the bench!
There u have it boys. The best chess player ever said it himself
In order to objectively judge who is the GOAT in the game you must evaluate multiple elements:
A player's completeness (passing, dribbling, scoring, assisting, etc.)
A player's influence on his team.
A player's consistency throughout the years.
A player's performance in key moments.
How many goals has Messi scored without been a #9?
How many assists he has had and how he has organized his teams plays without him been a midfielder?
How many years of consistency has Messi had? He won the balo d'or in his early twenties and continued winning it until a year ago.
Messi performs better against better sides and has even been MVP in most of the finals he has played.
No doubt Messi is the GOAT.
Messi dropped out of the top 30 best players ever, Ronaldo has never done that.
I'm definitely not a hardcore fan of soccer/football, but the soccer GOAT topic interests me from an outsiders perspective. Most takes I read seem based on fans watching Messi and CR7. For the few discussions I've seen, the fans also seem too young to have seen Maradona or Pele (the only other 2 I hear in the convo). So for the sport, do you have to actually have seen the player to make an opinion?
My personal priority for any sport is wining #1 and everything else factored in after that since the purpose of all sports I know is to win in the end. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but Messi seems like people's favorite to watch even if he doesn't win the most. CR7 wins more, but the separation is watching them on the pitch. Maradona and Pele historically seem more revered for their winning in addition to their skill. Can someone give me a little more insight?
@@mrfab4383 your point? Lol that literally doesn’t take anything away from Messi.
@@gumballwaterson1957 Messi literally has the second most trophies in history won by an individual behind Dani Alves,whom he will surpass by the end of this current season.
@@cristianalexander8861 Just trying to learn more about the topic since I don't follow the sport closely enough to tell if an opinion is BS or not. CR7 vs. Messi seemed to always break down to CR7 (and team) winning more, but Messi with more individual awards and having a more beautiful game to watch. Maradona and Pele lore seems based on wins they produced and skills or moment, though I don't really hear much about how Maradona and Pele played as compared with Messi which is mostly what I hear/see/read. That's why I asked if the sport is one where the opinion of a player is mostly based on eye test.
It's not trolling. Legit question from someone's who's ignorant but curious. There's no way I'm going to watch a ton of games of any of the 4 to get an idea of what everyone else is saying, but I do want to get ideas on how the conversation is framed.
Maradona single-handedly took a mediocre Napoli side to 2 titles & a Uefa Cup. Messi & CR7 never played for mediocre teams and were surrounded by top top quality all throughout their club careers! Messi played in far superior teams than CR7 did but when FCB’s backs were against the wall Messi never stepped up and rescued them against Roma Liverpool Bayern Juventus when Real needed CR7 to do the business he did! that’s what the greats do.Both amazing players it’s fine margins that separates them
So what European titles did CR7 win with Juve if CR7 stood up when he was needed? How many leagues did CR7 stand up for to win for Real?
Plus your using the Liverpool tie? Didn't Messi score 2? And the Bayern game that I'm presuming the 8-2 tie. Did you expect Messi to score 7 whilst also defending?
Or are you taking about the 2015 tie where he scored 2?
Cherry picking ties is so weak, its embarrassing.
Ronaldo carried a crap Portugal to its first ever title, carried a crap United with only the goalkeeper performing by himself at the age of 37, Messi has never done that before.
I don’t agree about Cristiano Ronaldo. To me he is one of if not the most overrated player ever. Plus, he always played in great teams full with big players. Real Madrid won LaLiga and UCL in the same season with old dogs like Benzema, Modric, Kroos (same players Cristiano played with but much older). He was a great stats machine and for the most part his goals benefited him. Real had a great team, Man Utd won 2 more titles after he left (Sir Alex could win the EPL with people like Anderson and Fletcher). And he didn’t do nothing in Juve. They were clearly more dominant before him.
However, Maradona is the greatest. Messi is second.
Haha u keep saying that but diferent times and I bet Maradona wouldn't be able to do that with Napoli in the Era and no single handedly no he didn't cuz he wasn't a defender or a mid filder or a goal keeper right? Stop saying that stupid shit
Agree
Messi won the world cup 🏆
Messi is the best goalscorer dribbler playmaker/passer I have ever seen. Literally the best ever at every attacking attribute🐐
Dude loves his dribbling! The Isco bit had me laughing too
Messi world cups: 1
Ronaldo: 0
Ronaldo: 2
Cristiano: 0
@@gerardomalazdrewicz7514 🔥
@@gerardomalazdrewicz7514 PORTUGAL VS BRAZIL ARGENTINA 😂. MESSI WOULD RETIRE AT 25 IF HE IS IN PORTUGAL LETS BE HONEST . MESSI PLAYED FOR HISTORIC ARGENTINA . R9 GOT CARRIED BY PRIME BRAZIL
@gerardomalazdrewicz7514 PORTUGAL VS BRAZIL ARGENTINA 😂. MESSI WOULD RETIRE AT 25 IF HE IS IN PORTUGAL LETS BE HONEST . MESSI PLAYED FOR HISTORIC ARGENTINA . R9 GOT CARRIED BY PRIME BRAZIL
@@rogger972 No matter how many times you repeat it, does not make it true.
Remember pre-Qatar (at its start, that is) Portugal was considered a better squad than Argentina.
Portugal finally won Euro when found Cris' best position: cheerleader.
Messi has been carrying the whole FC Barcelona on his shoulders since Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, David etc left. Bartemou killed the spirit still they were playing UCLs till 8-2 happened with FC Bayern Munich.
Maradona... Won with Napoli and WC with Argentina vs a powerful Est German side
2022 france was stronger
I love how Lex didn’t even know Maradona died when he was on JRE. Lmao some football fan
Yeah, not like that interview was before Diego's passing. Lmao some argument.
@@f7empest They actually find out in that interview Diego has passed. Wake up buddy
In terms of just elegance, playfulness and skills I still think there was no one better than Ronaldinho. Messi is beautiful to watch but even he just can't reach Ronaldinho in those aspects. Zidane was also magical with the ball...
Ronaldinho definitely. Dude played as if the ball was just another part of his body,
Peak R9 in my opinion could match Ronnie skill wise
@@ShiNooBi1986 Agreed, even though his peak was quite short lived because of his injuries, R9 was pretty much the best thing I have seen in football to date. Messi is just pure effectiveness with the ball and probably no one can match him at that
Yes! Ronaldino and Zidane should be always mentioned if there is a debate on who is the GOAT
@@jonasjonas8358 yea Messi is Arguably the GOAT. His close control, dribbling, agility, quick brain is something I've never seen and probably never will.
But the Kid in me will always love R9s pace, power, Brazilian flair and finishing with power in both feet. R9 had it all and then some.
Ibra, Henry, Ronnie and Messi all Idolised him too remember
Pelé has more worldcup titles than Maradona, Messi and CR7 combined. LOL
So does every player that played for Brazilian national team in the 60s. No one cares.
@@DannyIMCF Vampeta>Messi
@@FlightLevelAviation LOL
Considering his guest is a chess champion:
If there was a football engine who plays perfect football. It would play very similar to messi. That’s how good messi is. He plays football like a watches the game from above.
Maradona surpass both Messi and Ronaldo for me. I honestly think a lot of people who think Messi or Ronaldo are better haven’t watched Maradona.
My dad would disagree with you. He is 75 years old, he's watched all of the greats including Maradonna, Cruyff, Maldini, Shearer etc.
His favourite player was Pele until around 2011-2012 when i made him watch a random La Liga match. I don't even remember which team Barça played against but Messi scored a brace and made multiple complete dribbles. This was the year he scored 91 goals.
A few weeks after that, he starts sending me TH-cam videos of Messi's highlight and came to the conclusion, Messi is just better. He's a die hard Brazilian fan btw and again, Pele was his favourite since he was a teenager.
But few games of Leo is all it took.
Goat recognizes Goat
No such thing as soccer. It's football. Where we actually kick the ball all the time.
True
No dude, it’s called soccer. It was invented in the greatest country in the world(America). We wear socks here when playing, that’s why it’s called soccer.
@@bobzyurunkel i think you have been living in your parents' basement...can you travel outside USA and see what is going on?
Football was invented in the UK and internationally is known as football(the most famous sport in the world)...
@@MMATopGs Nice try bruh. Everyone knows football was invented in Australia.
@@bobzyurunkel created by UK in the 19th century
As some random person in the youtube comments once said: If you ask an engineer to make a football player they will make Ronaldo, if you ask an artist to make a football player they will make Messi.
Pre injury Ronaldo was probably the best footballer the world ever saw. Ronaldinho was probably the most magical. That said, Messi's longevity at the top doing the impossible will be unmatched. This was supposed to be Messi's age, but the fact that a mere mortal that is Cristiano Ronaldo almost matched him for close to 2 decades is also worthy of respect.
Disagree, even R9 and Ronaldinho at their peaks don't come close to Messi. Messi could playmake like Ronaldinho, dribble like R9 and score like CR7. Not to mention pass like Laudrup.
the fact that messi dissapeared after moving to psg speaks for itself. He isnt even close to CR's greatness.
Pre injury ronaldo had 15 goals in 43 champions league games, won 0 champions leagues and 1 league title despite playing for the best teams in the world. He’s so overrated it’s not even funny
@@Gojimaru lmao what a dumb comment. Messi has Ronaldo's goal scoring record plus he's the best assister of all time. Cry more 🤣
@@Mopark25 Ok kid. You can sit down now.
I think Magnus and Lex touch on the difference in the two debates here. With Lebron/Jordan seeming pretty close, the arguments of quantifiables and unquantifiables can swing you either way depending on your mood. With Messi, everything is so stacked in his favour quantifiably that a case for anyone else based on unquantifiables starts to look a bit insane.
no it isn't close if you study basketball
Ronaldo has quantifiably more goals , more champions league trophies and more International success than Messi...
@@Maiso23m you’re blind
@@Maiso23m 40 more goals in 140 games… use your small brain
@@Maiso23m Messi has a better goal percentage, starting with that. He has more assists also.
You can’t judge Messi’s Greatness by stats only … stats only would make mediocre players looks like all time greats
Indeed. His plays and skills are incredible too.
A rundown of some of the greatest players to ever kick a ball, and famous quotes by other great players about them.
I was lucky enough to see Maradona in his prime, and i've never saw anyone ever have such control over a ball, or an Orange, or rolled up Socks, the man verged on the Supernatural with the talent he had.
No other player comes close to what Maradona could do, his close control was mind bending.
"We (the Barcelona squad) watched Maradona in training kick a ball way up in the sky 13 times in a row without letting the ball hit the ground once and never take more than 3 steps before kicking the ball again.
Us being the Barcelona team fancied a shot at this ourselves, we all managed 3 kicks before running about like headless chickens trying to catch the ball, we all failed miserably."
Messi was brilliant in his 20's, untouchable in his era when running at players, frightening even.
"Messi's probably the greatest player of all time, certainly the best of the modern era."
Ronaldo was fantastic too, brilliant beyond belief in his prime, unstoppable at his best.
"I was marking Ronaldo all game, i certainly remember his shirt number, cause i only ever saw the back of him the whole game."
Iniesta was arguably the finest playmaker of his generation, he made great players look average at times and took the ball for a walk around some of the finest players of his era, including the Referee twice lol. He was magical to watch. Brilliant.
"He just walked the ball through our Midfield as if they weren't there, and we were Brazil, the best in the World before the match, we weren't the best after the match."
Zidane was the best of his generation undoubtedly. For a man so tall and heavily built he moved with the grace of a ballerina, and his touch was World class. At his best he was the greatest player of his generation.
"Someone told me he wasn't that tall and could be pushed off the ball at times, i never even saw the ball the entire game, if i'm marking him next game i want to change position."
Johan Cruyff was arguably the finest player to have a skill move named after him (the Cruyff turn) and he reinvented what silky Football was, is, and can be.
"He turned me like i wasn't there, he ghosted me not once, not twice, but three times, that was a hard shift."
Distefano won the European Cup 5 times in a row with the great Real Madrid team of the 50's and 60's.
He practically invented the modern Football player back in his day.
"I stood beside Distefano in the tunnel before the match, and that was as close as i got to him the whole game."
Pelé was ridiculous at pinpoint passing, his inventiveness was next level, he could score, pass, flick, trick, you name it he could do it.
Marvelous player.
"He dummied me and made me look like a Schoolboy Footballer, the ball went one way, he went the other, and i was stood like a deer caught in headlights."
The GOAT is an idea for the ages, every generation has players that define their era, move Football forward in such a way as to reinvent the game entirely.
Who's the GOAT?
The one that inspired you most i suppose...
Good job remembering people that is not usually remembered.
Cruyff said: "I can play like Di Stéfano (1), but can't play like Pelé"
(1) Was probably the only one ever that could deliver on that, and did deliver.
GOAT is a very short list, and I pretty much agree with this list as long as Ronaldo shirt number is 9.
In that list, I believe anyone could be argued for it.
The only people who think Ronaldo over Messi are: Man United fans, Real Madrid fans, the Portuguese and former teammates.
And even some former teammates still say Messi 😂
Yes, because he has proven himself across different countries and has had more of an impact on the international stage. Messi was in a club (not even teams) built around him from when he was 17, and didn’t do much special in FRANCE
@@Bumbling.blithering.buffoons Mate Ronaldo can’t even get a game ahead of Elanga 😂
Built around Messi? Ronaldo joins the most successful team in each country and waits in the box. He’s a finisher, that’s it. Messi has done more in the last few weeks for PSG than Ronaldo has in months!
Messi actually has more goals against England’s top 6 than Ronaldo and not even played in the Prem 😂 embarrassing
And Messi has had a far greater impact on the international stage than Ronaldo. How many World Cup finals has Ronaldo featured in? He only spent 20 minutes on the pitch in the Euro final 😂
A Euro final btw - any other version previous he wouldn’t have even made it out of the group stage finishing 3rd without a single win.
@@jezcorrigan651 messi has been average (for how good he is) at best for Argentina. Fact.
And yes, there were a number of Barca sides built around messi. Do you not know the history of when he first joined Barca as a kid??? It rarely gets spoken about funnily enough… but that sums up Barca anyway, absolute joke of a club
And playing in a World Cup final doesn’t count for much. Kleberson was a World Cup winner and was the most effective midfielder during that tournament…
@@Bumbling.blithering.buffoons Keep deluding yourself. If the greatest team of his generation was built around him then there isn’t a much higher compliment than that.
@@jezcorrigan651 deluding? Just stated some facts. I’m glad I’m not one of those weird adults that’s gets heated over the messi ronaldo debate. They’re both 2 of the greatest to ever grace a pitch. But neither are THE greatest. Just my opinion
Also, regarding allocation of talent, another thing to consider is adaptability. Some players adapt to different teamsters and coaches and systems quicker than others.
Gotta love when two people forcing eye contact.
When I close my eyes and think of the true definition of futbol I honestly only see the silhouette of Lionel Andreas Messi.
In his prime, no player was better than Ronaldo Luis Nazario de Lima.
El Fenomino was the most unstoppable force there ever was.
Pelè is the best of all time. Messi a very close second. This generation just doesn't understand Pelè because he's so far removed from them and there isn't as much video of him in games.
Pele can play easily in this era. By far the best football player ever
@@cerveshred even the limited video we have (and the stuff from his time playing professionally in America doesn't count because other than Kyle Rote Jr. No one could play) shows his amazing skill. I believe a case can be made that at his peak he was the greatest athlete of all time too.
@@JimPfaff LOL what makes Pele the greatest football player ever? If you made the case for Maradona being the greatest ever that would be hard to dispute but Pele honestly I don't get the hype he played in a mediocre league.
@@Hussanali77 clearly his World Cup record stands out. Listen, I was always a huge Maradona fan. He was clearly awesome. But to Pelè, he had a better career. Played in COPA averaging nearly a goal per game (692 games 618 goals). Three World Cup championships. More than twice the goals as Maradona in the World Cup. He has 77 goals in 92 games on the Brazil national teal.wit 77 goals. Messi has more goals (92) but in 162 games. I could keep going. The numbers are astounding. And football around the world is much like American baseball in that you can compare players in different eras well since the foundations of rhe game haven't substantively changed. Personal conditioning is better now, but that becomes an inconsequential difference in that relative conditioning was the same for players in different eras with their contemporaries.
This isn't really isn't a controversial thing ranking Pelè the best. You may disagree. But it's not at all controversial. And I say that as about the biggest Messi fan who is a native American.
You are not a big Messj fan stop with the lies! What the hell makes Pele better than Messi. Messi is much better.
No disrespect to Carlsen but if some one dismisses the World Cup saying "it's overrated due to small sample size" they can never and should never be taken seriously. If World Cup was indeed so overrated, then why has Messi failed to perform exceptionally well at the tournament so far?
Pele was exceptional in all his World Cup tournaments. Maradona was fantastic in three of the four WCs he participated. Messi on the whole however has been really good in only one tournament (2014). Pretty much same for Cristiano Ronaldo as well who was great only in 2018.
What this proves is that performing big under the pressure of the World Cup is not easy one bit.
Here are my GoATs:
1) Pele, Meazza
2) Hector Scarone, Leonidas Da Silva, Jose Manuel Moreno, Maradona,
3) Arthur Friedenreich, Matthias Sindelar, Zizinho, Di Stefano, Duncan Edwards, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Messi
5:44 Holy Moly!!! Carlsen is a total Messi fanboy LMAO. Mentions Higuain "fluffed" the chance but conveniently forgets how Messi too missed an easy chance in a 1v1 against Neuer. Also, btw Maradona took Argentina to another World Cup final too in 1990.
he's right tho, in just a month using your logic now all of a sudden messi is better than almost everyone in your list just because he wins the wc. It's hard to take someone's opinion seriously when they can only formulate an opinion thanks to a single trophy without truly understanding how football works
"I don't care what you did to your life I care what you did to mine"
Only for Maradona people say this phrase
You said football first so why is it not in the title?
Probably to bait comments and engagements from people who get offended over what people call a sport
I mean aside from the statistics, remember Messi scored 91 goals in a single season, watching this man play is just magic and only by experiencing him can you see how special a player he is. He makes the beautiful game reach an echelon truly divine
Calendar year, not season
This guy is not serious lol Maradona didn’t score more than 400 goals and didn’t win UCL but it was the matter in which he won that World Cup. Considered the greatest individual performance in any WC, 5G+5A but outside of that: goal of the tournament, most chances created, the amount of fouls received.
On the other page: Messi has scored twice as much goals, assisted over 300 times (he owns that record), has won every single tournament except for Confederations and official WC, top scorer in CONMEBOL, Argentina, Barca and 2nd top in European competitions. He is the top scorer of all time excluding penalties also. His chances created and ability to read and dictate the pace of game is what sets him apart
If you watch soccer, Messi definitely is better than Ronaldo. We're seeing it now with how limited Ronaldo is compared to Messi. Ronaldo can only be in and near the final third, while Messi can start an offence from the half and sometimes even behind it. Watch some of his near assists and near misses. There is no debate for the best player in this era.
@@flip3249 been in North America way too long.
Lol
Messi possesses a superhuman sixth-sense that nobody else has. He has the most goals per game of all time. More championships and now a World Cup.
Thanks Lex you picked my question for this interview. Been watching and rewatching your podcast, im addicted
People who genuinely argue Ronaldo over Messi haven't watched them play. Messi is more clinical, a significantly better passer (most important thing in football), a significantly better dribbler, has better vision, better set-piece taker, stronger on the ball and overall just a much better footballer. Ronaldo i better in headers and pens.
Where do you have Ronaldo all time
Football doesn't ends on technical abilities
@@willbrower1708 Messi is in the GOAT discussion with a short list of players, none named Cristiano.
And now it is oficial
I love how Magnus blames Higuain like any other Argentina fan 😂😂
I could tell Lex doesn't know jack about soccer, but someone else would swear he watches every week by how he sounds. lmao. 😂🤣
Messi Won The World Cup so I think Magnus would label Messi as the Undisputed GOAT now.
Messi is built for football field
I always feel like I'm watching an X-Files character doing interviews in these videos.
Most of us will not be able to thumbs up the video, since you did not use the correct term for the sport. In English the sport is called football. If every country but one calls it football it's best to call it football, as that's what it is. Best regards. Not a super serious post, but still factual. With love.
Well said.
I mean, technically Australia and USA both use "soccer" which the USA, at least, got from the English so....? And since it's pretty clear you know the USA uses soccer, it's kinda hard to say "in English" unless you're implying British English is the end all be all. Not super serious, but just saying. All love though
3 Ronaldos. The 1st was phenomenal!
However I think Messi Cruyff and Ronaldo (The First) were the very very best of all time. In that order
futbol player, the greatest futbol player of all time.
Magnus comments about Messi are very accurate
Messi is the greatest and the most effective, but I much prefer Zidane's aesthetics. The way he moved and seemed to command space and time with classical majesty. Messi is a bit of a mess running like a little unstopable mouse.
I love Zidane but on that note I would put Iniesta up there with Zidane.
Yeah messi is better than zidane but there is something about how zidane touches the ball as if he can turn the ball into a cotton, his dribbling is so smooth and delicate
It is easy, Messi plays the game, Cruyff made it.
Pele. Cruyff. Madonna. Eusebio.
Great take by Magnus. Messi is by far the goat, even without the wc. He has played for very unbalanced argentina-teams his whole career and carried them in 2014 to the final and won best player of the tournament as a losing finalist. That never happens. His 2021 copa win cemented his greatness again, but he has absolutely nothing left to prove. Just enjoy him
He played in the best Argentina ever and Barcelona. Don't lie
"and won best player of the tournament as a losing finalist. That never happens."
Modric, Kahn, Forlan, Zidane, Ronaldo (98)... Giving that award to a losing finalist (or 3rd place) is pretty much the standard in the past 30 years.
It happens for Modric in 2018 tho, but yeah i agree the worldcup is just the cherry on the cake and rn the cake is huge and tasty 👿
“By far the GOAT” lmao
Who the fuck is pele and Maradona right? No merit in revolutionizing the sport
I am Brasilian and we have a rivalry with Argentina ever since the Maradona days
But Messi is something special, I have never seen a player do so many genius moves in a soccer match than Lionel Messi.
He is undoubtedly in the same Mount Rushmore as Pele and Maradona as one of the goats!
I hope he wins the 2022 world cup and retires, mic drop style!!!
Man, ARG-BRA rivalry is much older than Maradona himself (the person, not the player).
I understand why it will always be Messi, just the awe when he plays…………..but Ronaldo will always be my favourite and greatest to me!
@@madworker1927 I’m going off his early united career. That would be when I watched him consistently the most.
He ain't even the best Ronaldo. There's Cristiano Ronaldo then there's the real one. R9. Phenomeno
@@ShiNooBi1986 nope. That’s utter shite. You can have talent and not be able to utilise it. Which due to no fault of his own was the problem for R9.
@@HandsomeFlackoJodye that take is more shite lol he utilised it at a very youn age doing what he did and what he won. It was a shame he got those injuries tbh but CR7 ain't even close to 20 year old Ronaldo. Ask Ibra, Henry and Messi lol the real ones know but you can have your opinion that's fine man ✌️
@@ShiNooBi1986 when you can continue to do something for more than a decade. That’s real talent!
In their prime, Ronaldo Nazario without a doubt
But Ryan Giggs is the best scorer ever, even after retirement.
He's also a poet
I wouldn’t say the 2014 Arg team was a mediocre squad. They had Aguero, Di María, Machenero, etc. They were good.
They were not good! Argentina changed their system just before the World Cup started became they conceded way too many goals leading up to the Tournament.
Yeah, Monaco's substitute GK Romero, Man Utd bench warmer Marcos Rojo, Garay who was sold to Zenit St Petersburg, Enzo Perez who was sold to Valencia to become a bench warmer, Federico Fernandez who was a substitute at Getafe, Augusto Fernandez from Celta are good players to you? And Aguero that season played just 23 league games due to injury and Di Maria was sold to Man Utd that summer by Real Madrid and he got injured before the final.
You see a defence pair of Rojo, Garay and Romero as gk, Mascherano as DM and think they are good compared to Mats Hummels, Baoteng, Mertesacker, Lahm at defence, Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Ozil,, Kroos at MF and Neuer as GK?
"World Cups are overrated". Carlson already smarter than 99.99% of fans.
If they were, then every modern GOAT contender should have at least one...oh wait....
Not on football.
@@njldst2007 Why? The guy is right, wc are very overrated. Dont go along with the hype.
@@issi529 The guy is not right just as I am not necessarily right either, it's a subjective opinion, there is no black and white, right or wrong in this.
The main reason many to most Argentinians still don't put Messi above Maradona is because Maradona won them the World Cup. That is a fact, you can argue with the reasoning behind it all you want, as it is an opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that people who rate the WC rate it.
Either way, pretty presumptuous of you to assume I'm 'going along with the hype'. Small tip, just because someone doesn't share an opinion of yours, doesn't mean they don't have the same knowledge or are not aware of the same facts you are, people come to different conclusions with the same variables in place, that's how free thinking works
@@njldst2007 Indeed. Its a opinion. But if people think that a wc makes a player bigger or better is also a opinion. And not a fact. Messi won much more than maradona in his career thats also a fact.
Obviously Ronaldo is still a great player, but it's hard to deny Messi when you compare the two.
Ronaldo plays football at the human limit, while Messi seems to surpass it.
Have gotten very into chess the past months and watching this conversation was golden
"It's like Maradona's hand of God, there's some creativy on the pitch" huh???!
Football discussion in Lex Fridman channel, never though I'd see this in my lifetime. It is now complete.
Also he is spot on about the World Cup. I have a genius behind my previously held opinion now lol so go talk to him.
While confessing that I may be guilty of nostalgia bias (the mirror image and equally perilous opposite number of recency bias), it is astonishing to me how many people discount Pelé in the GOAT debate.
He was the best player on three WC winning squads, scattered over twelve years. Yes, he was injured for much of the 1962 tournament. He was nonetheless that team's best player.
Yes, he lags far behind in official FIFA goal tally. But, ~ 450 of his goals were scored in non-sanctioned friendlies, most of which were scored against the best European club sides.
Speaking of Europe, his lack of presence in Europe is frequently cited as a mark against him. On the contrary, it was a strength. In his era, international transfers were rare and intercontinental transfers were practically unheard of. The best club football in the world was played in South America, not Europe. In other words, he played and dominated against the best available competition.
Longevity - yes, players like Messi, Ronaldo, and Zlatan are remarkable for their incredibly long careers. Pelé played competitive club football for twenty years. And he did it with 1960s medical technology and antiquated training methods. If he had been born in 1980, rather than 1940, he could have played well into his forties.
Finally, cultural importance and transcendence... Yes, Messi is an entity unto himself. The man is practically a sovereign nation of one. But, at the peak of his popularity, Pelé was bigger. Globally, he was a more recognizable brand name than Coca Cola, McDonald's, and Disney. And he did it without the Internet, social media, and 24/7/365 live sports coverage. Heads of State literally waited in line simply to shake his hand. When he landed in a war torn country, the shooting stopped so that soldiers from both sides could watch a match in which he was playing. What's more, the match was played without incident.
I completely understand why a person who wasn't alive to watch him play, might not consider him. After all, Ferenc Puskas isn't on my list, despite his undeniable greatness. But, given the totality of his achievement and a true historical understanding of his rightful place, Pelé deserves consideration from all generations today, as well as those yet unborn.
The conversation is NOT between Messi and Ronaldo but between Messi and Maradona.
"Take two, now say Ronaldo [is your favorite Madrid player]"
The Madrid organization was the one that kept pushing the GOAT "debate" that never existed.
Did everyone forget about Pelé?
He's like Wilt Chamberlain. The game was too different back then. Fewer teams, players, different rules and officiating standards, tactics and style of play. It's almost a different sport.
Also, many Brazilians will tell you that Garincha was the better Brazilian footballer.
Most people that remembers pele are already dead so yes
funny how Carlson was amazing at fantasy league aswell, and when he sang that west ham song
Some Messi fans need to be respectful. Ronaldo is the greatest in my opinion and a lot of other people. Stop acting like there's no debate. You're entitled to your opinion and others are entitled to theirs. Be respectful. Even from a pure aesthetic standpoint it goes to Ronaldinho in my opinion.
If I’m entitled to my opinion why can I not be entitled to say that Messi is way better and there should not be a debate?
Ronaldinho is a little bit overrated. He wasnt consistent at all and he was more of a show man. Messi, maradona and are better in my opinion.
Messi is in the GOAT discussion with a short list of players, none named Cristiano.
Messi, I played Futbol for years and Messi is the only one player in which I can't even dream about doing the thing he does. I mean, the rest top players are great but you can't do what he does sometimes, it's like he is able to play in slowmo.
That's the truth whether anyone likes it or not - Messi is the greatest of all time, irrespective of winning World Cup or not
I bet even if messi wins the wc, people will still say "but not 3 world cups tho"
@@acacia8261 true
@@acacia8261 3 world cups? Who did that?
@@jackoplumkin6412 pele did
If the World Cup is a small sample, then the Olympics are a small sample, and so is the Chess World Championship.
Messi is not the GOAT. One of the best, definitively, he had ideal conditions in Barcelona, but when playing for example for Argentina, he had mediocre performance. A bit overrated compared to other players that always were outstanding despite the team they played in.
He has won 4 International man of the tournament awards with Argentina, most by any Footballer. Stop waffling
Yeah... keep telling yourself the midiocre argument with Argentina while ignoring he reached 5 finals with them.
Keep teeling yourself that he "had it easy in Barcelona" and pretent Barça didn't go down hard after he left. Just to show everyone that was Messi who hidded that cracks at the club.
@@renatoooe lol 4 world cups, 6 goals. 😂 Key player, but outside of Barcelona, not even close to Ronaldo, Romario, Zico and Pelé.
You realise how many different coaches changed the style of play at Barcelona? Many of these players who change clubs go to the best clubs with really good players where they are already in dominating teams with or without them. When messi left barca they still haven't won anything and literally had to spend a lot of money on players trying to get to a good side again and they might have finally done it this year
He's actually talking about how Madrid build the PR for Pendulum... Show this to Idiots who claims he have done it all by himself...🤣🤣🤣
Messi makes things so easy he’s so smart with not much effort he doesn’t run much but knows when to run and his vision is second to none. Ronaldo is the hardest worker and IMO best finisher as well as the most athletic and will almost always step up in the biggest moment. Ronaldo could single handedly lift teams out of relegation, Messi doesn’t have the work rate Ronaldo does to do that tho.
The GOAT argument usually comes down to whether you think its
THE PLAYER WITH THE BEST LEGACY VS THE PLAYER WITH THE BEST ABILITY.
Ability. Legacy is simply Ability + Luck and Circumstance
Messi and pele has both, it's hard to argue against them
If you look at their careers Ronaldo and Messi are from another planet compared to Maradonna and Pele
Different times have a lot to do with that.
Better sport medicine, better nutrition, better pitches, helped them to have a longer career.
Maradona won titles without millions spent on the teams, its like Messi winning with a division b team. That's how much better he is
He also did it with cocaine.
While Messi dominated europe for at least 15 years. Consistency in a much tougher tactical era.
And btw, in Maradonna's era, no one was spending millions.
@@DarthwRath lol
@@urbansamurai261 it’s true
Best at their sport ever:
LeBron
Nadal and Djokovic
C. Ronaldo and Messi
If Ronaldo Nazario trained his body the way he should have, he would have been untouchable as the Best Ever
My friends who don’t know shit about the sport this I hate Ronaldo because I vouch for Messi, but here’s the thing: there’s no shame in being #2, because he is. The peak of Madrid, he was a target man getting support from some of the best creators on the planet. Marcelo, Carvajal, Modric, Kroos, James, Isco, bale, Benz, all got the ball to him to finish most of the chances. Not enough words I can type right now will explain what Messi does on the field. He’s a legit alien
Are you serious? Messi played in Barca for all his best years with basically a dream team or Spanish players who were European and world champions and you’re saying Ronaldo had great players around him? Lol. There are a lot of good arguments to defend Messi as the goat but if you’re gonna say Ronaldo in RM had no merit because of his team, then Messi had even less since his team was better by all measures.
@@ricardoalmeida4719 Messi dropped deep and was never a target man in his career. Most outside the box goals in history. & from 2015-2021 he CARRIED the fuck out of Barca and was absolutely not part of any super team. Suarez got fat as fuck and gave us pretty much nothing in the UCL. Ronaldo was the focus of the team. Feed him the ball as close to goal as possible. Marcelo Carvajal Vazquez spamming crosses, James Isco Kroos Modric supporting, Benzema wasted most of his individual years with a supportive role. I don’t get how anybody who has watched both over the years could think he’s better. He’s #2 and that should hold its weight but most people who talk about either player really don’t watch either week in week out to see the truth