Serve is a throw upwards, at 75-80 degree to the horizon. Try throwing a ball (or even a raquet if you not afraid to ruin it) on the other side of the court with as high trajectory as you can. You wil get the perfect serve motion.
Ok maybe the serve is a throw upward to begin the fluid motion but after you reach the apex you have to drive downward in a fast powerful motion to create the downward velocity of the ball going into the court flat and slice. Even a kick where you first contact the back side of ball and drive upward first you have to eventually drive downward or the ball would just fly up in the sky or at best sail over the service box.
Kao bivsi rukometas koji se poceo bavit rekreativno tenisom (bez trenera), moram rec da svi ovi videii vezani za wrist action su mi, vjerujem, od velike pomoći. Ne bih nikad skuzio da se zglob ne smije aktivno koristit u završetku udarca (forehand, serve..) jer je totalno suprotno od tehnike sutiranja, ili throwing motion. Jako lijepo objasnjeno, ovo ti je jedan od najboljih videa
I feel that it is a throwing motion of the racquet. The contact point of the ball in a serve is the release point of pitching a baseball. Most instructors say it is similar to pitching a baseball , not exactly as pitching it. It is similar and i feel a good premise for teaching the serve. Seems to have worked for a lot of players.
I think the throw is a good 'rough guide' to the serve principle but agree, ceases to be useful after the elbow moves upward whereupon a throwing technique no longer correctly applies, you're right there is a subtle difference. Great advice, thank you Nick. Gordon
Thank you, this video gave a distinction to what I’ve been feeling for a long time. I’ve struggled with my serve because I’ve tried to replicate the throwing feeling and thus I over rotate a lot on my server, along with other problems.
@@maxpowers4436 The ball is going down, but you are not touching the ball directly, you are touching the racquet. The motion you of swinging the racquet in a serve is very similar to an upward throw
I've always thought of the serve as being similar to throwing a tennis ball in a vertical path versus horizontal. When you throw a ball straight up in the air, the action forces you to turnover your shoulders or rotate them. It helped me a lot as a beginner.
Good analysis. I’m sure you are correct. However my wife’s serve improvement has tracked her improvement in throwing the ball. We throw balls of different weights (heavier than tennis balls) before each serve practice. She had a habit of bringing her elbow out to the side after racquet drop. Hitting around the ball with little power. Throwing the ball with emphasis on elbow forward helped correct this. Yes, she doesn’t serve with elbow entirely forward like a throw but the ball throwing broke her of her “elbow out” habit. I’ve found that we have to overemphasize or overcorrect to to break a bad habit. We also throw balls upward in a high arc and mimic the toss before the throw. Shoulder over shoulder. Pretty close to an actual serve motion. Additionally we throw the balls with upper body rotation (back of the left should to the target). This has improved her upper body rotation on her serve. We also throw an old racquet and a badminton racquet high and forward on the lawn. Even though the throw is not the same as you have shown, throwing balls and racquets has helped my wife. Especially when she progressed to being able to throw upwards while mimicking the ball toss. Weighted balls also build those serve muscles.
I'm a Quarterback. I coach it and I have studied the biomechanics of it. I am here to tell you the serve is almost exactly like throwing the deep ball in football. Also, I played American football in Germany and I can also say that if European tennis players would play more football and baseball their tennis serve would be better generally speaking. This is not to say there aren't subtle differences and that they should be observed when serving. That point is well taken. Serena's dad used to literally have her throw racquets...just sayin Ben Shelton. Roddick. Isner. Something about having played American sports that helps their serve?
I agree 200%. I played quarterback and threw balls throughout my childhood, and it’s unequivocally the reason I developed a very good serve in tennis as a small guy. In tennis you learn to adapt to the proper shoulder position involved in serving but we always used a football 🏈 to help our young players with the service motion. And love training guys who played baseball or played quarterback because they quickly pick up the service motion. Great post @Jac1616!
I agree, the serve is not a typical throwing motion, but there are many similarities with throwing a deep ball in American football, particularly if it is a platform stance serve. A normal throw also in American football is more of a horizontal throw, so the vertical body axis in such throws will be almost perpendicular to the ground. However if throwing a deep ball, then also in American football there will be a tilt, not only a tilt of the shoulders but also a tilt of the vertical body axis. An other difference between the tennis serve and a good normal horizontal throw, is that as the thrown ball is released the arm is bent at the elbow, whereas in a tennis serve the racket-arm is extended and basically in line with the right shoulder above the left shoulder. However if an American football is thrown for a deep ball, with what would generally be considered a flawed "side arm" technique, then things get much more similar to a tennis serve. The tennis serve would still have a considerably higher trajectory than a deep throw in American football (or even a Hail Mary), so it is not exactly the same thing, but if it happens to be done in a "side arm" throwing technique some aspects get somewhat similar. The flaw that results in a "sidearm throw" is when the left shoulder is thrown to the left with the left arm, this will force the right arm to stretch out to the right, and thus the American football thrown with such a "side arm" technique would miss the target wide, laterally. In a good throw of an American football (or handball) normally the left hand should stay firm somewhere below the chin (sometimes described like holding a sandwich), and the left shoulder should not move to the left or move down, because if the left shoulder and arm would move down then the right arm would go up, and tend to straighten out parallel along the neck (as in a flawed beginners serve in Tennis), in American football this would be resulting in missing the target high (such a throw however can happen in baseball). However in a good tennis serve what happens with the tossing arm is leading to something similar to the "side arm" throw, known as a flaw in a normal American football throw (if it is intended as a precise and more horizontal pass, a "side arm" throw tends to not be prices and miss the target wide). At the end of the toss in the Tennis serve, the tossing arm will point up and sometimes as in the case of Roddick come slightly across the chest, with the chest pointing up to the sky. As the serve is triggered and the weight transfer and immediately following hip rotation starts, the racket will start its drop down over and behind the shoulder, and the toss arm will move forward and down. This initial movement of the toss arm going forward and down with the left shoulder moving to the left, helps the racket arm to straighten even if in a successive phase the toss arm will tuck in on to the chest, and this will also have an impact on the rotation of the upper body. At the end of the serve after contact during the landing, then the toss arm can also straighten out again, and move back to balance the body in the landing. But this movement that happens way after contact does not impact the racket arm acceleration to the ball anymore. I am ambidextrous, even though I play mainly with the right hand, and serve in a pinpoint stance both with the right hand and with the left hand, but having started practicing throwing the American Football both with the right and the left arm has helped my left handed Tennis serve to improve, even if I try to throw the American football with proper technique and not "side arm" even when trowing a deep ball. I guess I would say that the stroke in Tennis that comes closest to a normal throw in American football is a bouncing smash close to the net of a ball that only bounces a bit higher then the head, that is obviously an easy put away, and it doesn't have to be punished. But if this smash near the net after a ball that did not bounce much higher then the head is hit hard, then it would result in similar motion as a normal throw of an American football, with the arm unusually bent at the elbow and the left arm staying rather firm in position, with the left hand a bit under the chin and not too far in front of the chest. An other Tennis stroke that comes a bit closer to throwing a deep ball but "side arm" is a smash from near the baseline, this will be executed in a platform stance even by most players that normally serve in pin-point stance (hardly anyone would throw pin-ponit), and even if it is very similar to a normal serve, the missing tossing action helps to make it a bit more similar to a "deep throw" from American football, even if the tossing arm is brought into a similar position as after the toss. Apart from weight transfer and hip rotation that can be effectively trained with throwing an American football, I found that something that can help generate extra power in the tennis serve is the "dissociation" (by dissociation I refer to having the shoulders more turned then the hips, kind of like in a "corkscrew-serve" but not too extreme, rather than just a normal coil where both the shoulders and the hips are turned in a similar angle with the back facing the net), and this "dissociation" and not just a coil is needed in American football to have an effective throw, BTW this "dissociation" was not very marked in Nikola's throw of the tennis ball. An other element from American football throwing that I find helpful for the tennis serve is a particular position before releasing the throw, this results in something similar to the position of the arms that Roddick had in his abbreviated service motion, just before trophy pose. Something like a horizontal double-L position, when serving the toss arm normally is in a slightly different position, but as Roddick tended to move the toss arm across the chest there is more of a similarity with what I mean. It resembles the position one would be in when separating two people that are starting a fight, or the position one stands in when opening a heavy door, just that when serving it is not horizontal, but with a tilt and the right shoulder lower than the left shoulder. Anyway both elbows are more or less in line with the shoulders the arms are moderately bent at the elbow (hence "double-L", even if it is a bit less than 90°) and the palms are facing outwards, with the thumbs pointing down (not too dissimilar from the position that Jannik Sinner has on his forehand during racket take back, with the left arm parallel to the ground and thumb pointing down, just that his elbows on the forehand take back are naturally not in line with the shoulders and that because he has a semi-western grip on the forehand the racket is facing the back fence with the contact face, instead of facing the court as would be the case with the continental grip on the serve). If tilted, with the right shoulder lower then the left one, this position results in the racket face being parallel to the ground palm down (if holding the racket with a continental grip), the American football in this position tends to point up with the front tip, while the tip where the index finger is (this would be the side of the ball in direction of the racket head, if holding a racket instead of a ball) tends to point to the ground. Just after this position the American football moves up (roughly in direction to the ear), and then the trow is triggered by the conjunction of weight shift, hip-rotation and left arm-shoulder moving to the left in case of "side arm" throw. In the tennis serve going through this "palm down" position, or in the case of an abbreviated motion sort of starting from this "palm down" position, results in good arm motion and acceleration afterwards, and if the the arm is flexible enough the racket will tend to "flare out" to the right on its way up to ball contact on edge, before the internal rotation of the arm and shoulder and pronation bring it to strike the ball on contact.
Actually I found that a good way to teach the serve and overhead to beginners, is to have them start first from a position approximately similar to this "flare out" position (even if it is not exactly the same), rather than from a normal trophy pose. By "flare out postion" I mean a position that is actually quite similar to a trophy pose or "Nike-swoosh", with the toss arm up vertically but the racket arm is in line with the tilted shoulders, and the elbow of the racket arm is bent at 90 degrees at the elbow with the forearm pointing up (elbow in line with the tilted shoulders). The difference is that the racket now would be held in a position not pointing to the server's head but in the opposite direction (the butt cap of the handle is pointing to the student's head), with the forearm supinated rather than pronated, and the racket in the same plane as the arm and forearm (as much as possible, depending on how flexible the person is) plus slight "radial deviation" (that is a movement where the wrist is in a position that brings the thumb closer to the forearm, the opposite of "ulnar deviation" which brings the pinky finger closer to the forearm). From this position it is basically impossible to bring the racket to ball contact in a "frying pan" or "waiters tray" position, if the racket is held in a continental grip. All the beginner will have to do is shift his weight to the front foot, and turn the hip forward, if the chest is pointing up to the sky then that hip rotation will then turn the shoulders, if there is at least slight "dissociation" in the coil. With the toss arm simultaneously coming forward and down to then tuck closer to the chest, the racket-arm will automatically go up to the ball contact, and the forearm will pronate from the initially supinated position. After serving from the "flare out" position, the progression would then be to serve from a position just before the racket drops back down (similar to that before hitting a smash, with the elbow in line with the shoulders and the racket in front of the body and roughly at eye level and pointing forward, then the wrist is in a position similar to that of Raonic before tossing, but "palm down" so that the contact face of the racket is almost parallel to the court), then from the "trophy position", then from the "double-L" position, and finally do a complete serve starting with the ball next to the racket-head before the toss starts (BTW to bring the racket directly into the "palm down" and "double-L" position, it helps to start the toss with the toss-hand touching the left side of the racket frame/the upper part, rather then the right side of the frame/the lower part, -kind of the opposite of what Kyrgios does- , in detail: starting with an already pronated forearm and a bent wrist, and the racket pointing down, contact face of the racket facing the back fence, this helps to bring the racket straight to the "palm down" position before the acceleration starts without having to do any additional movements until rreaching the double-L position, from there the wrist will loosen up and the racket will stay palm down as it gets to the position before it drops down behind the back, this is the position of the wrist that Raonic assumes in accentuated way already before starting the toss). Sorry for the length, but I hope I was able to give some constructive critique. BTW compliments for the videos, I've watched a few of the ones where you teach absolute beginners and they are just great! Frankly the students too!
@@jerrycallows3906 I'm afraid you've misunderstood, the comparison is between the motion in a high level tennis serve and a high level throwing motion. Specifically between the power sources (i.e. weight-shift from the right leg to the left leg, and generation of hip rotation and thereafter delay of that rotation through use of the legs sending the rotation up through the torso to the shoulders, and dissociation between hips and shoulders, and then delay of the shoulder rotation to transfer the energy in the arm), and the motion that the arm performs (i.e. internal rotation of the shoulder-arm unit, and pronation of the forearm, and finally ulnar deviation) which when throwing puts the spin on the prolate spheroid that an American football is, to get it to spiral. The angular momentum of this spiral keeps the American football stable on the trajectory to the target, and reduces air resistance which would occur through eccessive wobble. The basics o this motion of the arm is very similar to that in a high level tennis serve, even though there are important differences such as the arm's trajectory which for the tennis serve is very steep upwards, it feels almost vertical in fact (plus the "side-arm" technique for tennis that gets the arm to stretch is different from that of normal high-level throw, where the arm is bent at the elbow just prior to release with the forearm vertical, however for an experienced thrower it is possible to achieve this modification through use of the left arm). So the comparison has nothing to do with tossing the ball in a tennis serve, or throwing the tennis ball or racket to the ball. But if one is already able to put a good spiral on the American football (probably handball experience will have a similar consequence, but it lacks the visual proof of effect that seeing the ball spiral has), it will help to adjust that motion to execute a good serve, and also the generation of power from the ground up will be facilitated, even if there are some differences there as well (to put it short, in the throwing motion of American football the feet don't get airborne and only the heel of the right foot lifts while the toes stay in contact with the ground, but there are other differences as well).
@@jerrycallows3906 it's certainly true that one needs to toss the ball in the correct position, which is around a foot, or half a foot into the court (depending on if it is a flat or slice serve, or a kick serve which can be made contact less far in to the court than the flat serve) and around 12 o'clock with the left shoulder as reference (or if one does not care about disguise, then the kick actually works best around 11 o'clock, and the slice closer to 1 o'clock), but having a rather constant toss with the correct placement is a prerequisite for a decent serve. If one's toss is going all over the place it will clearly lead to the player trying to catch up with the ball chasing it, and ruin the swing to contact of the racket. So in that sense you are right that spending time to fix the toss is time well spent. Over the years I've experimented with various tossing motions (parallel and diagonal mainly, the straight one kind of made it difficult to coil) and in the end the one that I feel most reliable is a toss that starts with the ball behind the left shoulder. This way the toss can be controlled through three variables, the depth into the court y-axis (parallel to the center mark on Ad-court) is controlled by a kind of minimal "backhand-motion" similar to the swing of contact in a "one-handed backhand" with a straight arm, this motion makes it pretty sure that the ball will always go in front into the court and never behind you behind the baseline. This initial part that controls the depth of the toss is a bit like a J-toss, but the rest is more like a parallel toss, so my tossing motion is like a combination of a J-toss and a parallel toss. The x-axis parallel to the front foot (when serving from the Ad-court it is also pretty much parallel to the the baseline, on deuce-court it is angled between 45° and 60° to the baseline), is controlled by the arch on the ball, the more arch the ball has the more it will go to the left to 11 o'clock, the less arch is put on the ball the more it will be around 1 o'clock and this arch is controlled by minimal variations of the height of release, between eye level and forehead (closer to eye level leads to a small er arch, releasing a bit higher leads to a bigger arch more to 11 o'clock). The height of the toss or z-axis of the placement for the contact point of the toss I try to keep constant, so that the apex of the arch is about 3 feet above the contact point of racket with the ball, and I try to control this height of the ball by a constant speed of the toss starting slow and then get faster without really speeding up too much. To get the toss more fluid it can help to bring the straight tossing arm back behind the left shoulder, in a short and slow looping motion, about a foot distant from the body (a bit like Edberg used to do, even though it's not exactly the same motion, just to have something as a visualization), to not start the toss from standing point which can lead to a bit of jerky motion. Before starting the toss it can help to slightly tilt the head to the tossing shoulder and what definitely helps is to look to the release point of the toss (around eye level) already shortly before the tossing motion starts (Federer used to do this), and then follow the ball on the initial part of its upward trajectory as soon as it passes through the release point one is already looking at. Personally I find it best to toss the ball up holding it like a cup (a bit like Federer), holding the ball only with the base of the thumb and the base of the ring finger, it kind of rests on the slightly curled up pinky, while the index finger and middle finger are in line with the arm and barely touch the ball. When I grab the ball I place it at the base of the fingers (base of index, middle finger and ring finger, while the pinky finger points upward to the right of the ball), put the base of the thumb over the ball and then turn the hand with the back of the hand facing the returner, this way the arm is relaxed even if it is straight. While if the palm is facing upwards there is normally a bit of tension in the arm, and tension in the arm can be problematic in critical scoring situations, leading to a bad toss. The toss is then executed only with the shoulder and resembles a left-handed "one-handed topspin backhand", but without bending the arm around the elbow and without any wrist action. As the the hand goes through the point of release around eye-level, it opens up and the ball goes up without excessive spinning. BTW to loosen up the toss arm it helps to create a bit of tension in the racket arm, because it is difficult to keep both arms loose, it's enough to grip the racket firmly, but without exaggerating. Then conversely after the toss, the tension of straightening out the toss arm will loosen up the racket arm. One last tip is to coordinate the toss with a rhythm that remains the same on each serve, I match it with a breathing rhythm, inhaling while I look to the returner, then I exhale as I put the ball next to the racket frame, and start the toss in an "apneic pahse" a bit after having finished to exhale. Then I inhale in the loading phase and exhale after contact, I try to keep this rhythm constant, and tossing while holding breath helps to focus on executing a placement of the ball, almost like dishing the ball up to the contact point. Perhaps some of this can be useful also to you.
I agree with the statement, "The serve is not a throwing motion". However, I think the only problem I have with your reasoning is that you are cherry picking differences between the throw and the serve, when there are also similarities that you could actually learn from. The focus of the drill is much more important than the drill itself. Focus on differences and you learn nothing, focus on similarities and maybe there is something you can take away. Further, I do agree that the only way to actually improve the serve is by serving. Throwing is simply a tool to help the student learn certain principles of movement, and should not be used as the main way to learn to serve.
I understand that you are distinguishing the difference in body mechanics in throwing and hitting a tennis service. However as a former baseball player who pitched as well as hit as a batter I already understood the strategy and tactics. I was trained to move the ball to different locations over the plate, change the spin and pace on a pitch and pitch according to the count of strikes and balls, runners on base etc. A fast ball is like a flat serve, a curve ball is like a slice serve, a dropper is like a kick serve. You have to remember what batters like and don’t like. Find their weakness and exploit it especially when you need to win a point to win a service game or survive a break point. As a batter you learn to try to read a pitcher for body moves that tell what type of pitch they will throw. When returning I already knew how to watch where the toss was placed or mannerisms that gave away the location or type of service was going to be delivered.
nikolas and thomas(feels) are the best pros ive come across that break it down in such a beautiful yet mechanistic way, as a fellow slav i think we also intrinsically believe in sharing this type of knowledge and not keeping it as some kind of elitist secret, like i feel tennis is taught here in the US. I was frankly flabbergasted when i came to US 1st time and saw that tennis here was seen as this exclusive private club type of sport, when it couldnt be farther from the truth.
Myth is busted! The problem is that it’s difficult for people to change their belief system. After all, there are still people who believe the world is flat. This is very evident from the many comments disagreeing with your premise. If people believe that throwing a ball helps them have a good serve it will be hard to overcome that belief. I have seen instructors have their students practice throwing a ball to help them with learning to serve. Serving is so much more complicated than throwing a ball. Thanks for trying to help and don’t stop voicing your opinions even if there are dissenters.
Hi Nick, I am not discrediting your findings or your opinion on this matter, but I know from my personal experience in teaching people who have never served before that having them throw balls from the service line to the baseline in a upwards trajectory definitely enhances their chance of understanding how to serve correctly. The cartwheel effect is 100% accurate and the best way to describe the shoulder over shoulder displacement in generating racket speed and a consistent serve motion. Thanks for always sharing your ideas, experience and insights. Don
It is indeed tempting to draw this parallel between a serve and a throw, likely because throwing seems easier and more familiar. I can only say from my own experience that my serve deteriorated severely as soon as I started to think about it as a throw - it became fragmented, lost natural rhythm. Even if the serve was like a throw (which it is NOT because the objectives are different, we have to strike an object in perfect timing vs simply throw an object without that timing requirement), how useful would such parallel be for the serve training? Which throw are we talking about? It it a baseball, football, javelin, cricket ball, a dart? Each has a very distinct technique. Would you be satisfied in a training advise if a coach said "throwing a football is like throwing a baseball" or "throwing a javelin is like throwing a dart" ??? Not to mention that an average person can't throw ANY of the above mentioned objects correctly, so what kind of technique would they be referencing when trying to improve their serve? But if the motions of the serve and a throw are similar enough for anybody to draw a parallel between them, why not then say that serve is like chopping wood or hammering a nail into the wall, or smashing a pinata at a b'day party - all of them actually involve a similar arm action and uses an object for striking. How useful are those activities for serve training?
I found a lot of people disagree in the comments. Frankly speaking, util I had my aha moment in my serve, I thought serve was similar to throw racket up. Actually you are very right. Serve is more similar to whipping than throwing.
Look if you can only serve a flat first serve 80mph then you are either not athletic or older or doing something wrong. There's many techniques of serving from am abbreviated motion like an old time player like Roscoe Tanner who could serve past 140 mph with a small racket head to say Fed who is probably one of the best all time w classic style. Watch Roddick serve who probably would beat Fed at Wimbledon if they didn't slow the grass down. He's totally different approach than Fed. Then look at Rafa whose serve is mediocre at best by ATP standard. He uses a pinpoint style ( moving his back foot to even w front before hitting ) where Fed and Djok use platform stance with feet spread at 45°angle to baseline. The proof is if you can hit a first serve 110 on up with consistency and direction then you are starting to do things right if your a reasonably athletic guy. If you are just hitting cream puffs in it doesn't matter what technique you think your using cause at the end of the day your hitting cream puffs.
It would be better to serve a volleyball than to throw a ball for the correct arm motion, as the ball is not held in the hand. In both volleyball and tennis the ball is struck not released.
Catalin, good to hear from you old friend. You are absolutely right. Throwing in the United States is a religion. Dads take their kids out to throw and it’s a part of life. So people are taking this as a personal insult and refuse to look at the stone cold facts.
@@IntuitiveTennisLet them throw.You pointed out very clear that involving the non-dominant side (arm and shoulder),makes the difference from the start.
It's like this Americans grow up throwing baseballs and footballs. We have a conscription of an arm slot and a downward propelling of a ball with velocity. European grow up playing ⚽ ie kicking. So if you take a European and say go kick field goals in American football after a short time he'd adapt faster to that then an American who never played soccer. Same way with an American who developed technique of throwing over the years. Now if a European kid started tennis early he may be good at serving if athletic because he was taught the specific techniques and had a strong arm.
@@IntuitiveTennis True to a point in America if a kid has a great arm he's kinda revered growing up. He gets a chance to pitch in baseball and lots of recognition or a chance to play the glamour spot in football (quarterback.) I'm by no way saying just serving fast and accurate will make you a super tennis player as tennis is one of the most complex sports. I tell some of the macho guys football and baseball guys that tennis actually takes more all around skill development than any sport out there. But here's the proof if you take 10 guys who say could throw good enough to play college baseball and 10 guys who never really grew up throwing a ball but were soccer players and good enough to play college soccer I can almost guarantee you that you can teach the baseball players to serve quite well after say 2 months 5 lessons per week but the soccer players who never threw would have a much more difficult time. Now they learn could learn in time but it would be a very foreign feeling for them in the beginning.
Nick, I love all your previous video but I just couldn't bring myself to agree to this one. Yes you could be technically correct that the serving motion is not exactly identical to a throw. However, in my mind, serving is for all intents and purposes throwing your index finger knuckle upward to the sky and allowing the racquet to pivot around the wrist to strike forward. That concept promotes a natural shoulder over shoulder formation as well as loose wrist at contact. It works fantastically well for me and my son as a mental image. Your points on elbow and shoulders are also doubious because the sky is the "throwing" target when serving, not the opponent. You might need to compare the motion of serving to one of throwing a ball to the sky. Thanks for your effort anyway.
Nik is demonstrating a throw that is more like one meant to be caught by a teammate (low powered). For a throw that is difficult to handle for the OPPONENT, one needs to incorporate exactly what Nik points out is lacking--torso rotation with the dominant shoulder above the non-dominant shoulder as it comes through. This position is seen in many baseball pitchers, including Sandy Koufax, the Roger Federer of pitching. th-cam.com/video/idaxs6bm6LM/w-d-xo.html If you slow it down to 0.25 you can also see his elbow pointing to the sky at 28.
Teaching throwing the racket like a ball helps the student correlate how the relaxation suppose to work, then just adding elbow path, pronation, tennis mechanics and etc. into it.
A thoughtful analysis of the different motions, serve vs. throwing, Nick. Thanks! I think your analysis is well documented in the slow motion comparisons of the two motions. Nevertheless, I find that when I do some shadow throwing motions, especially when my service rhythm starts to break down, this helps. I think the reason is that there is one commonality between throwing and serving: the dominant arm has to remain rather relaxed (though focused). At least in my case, a few shadow throws tends to counter my periods of "concrete arm". Of course, when doing this, I'm not thinking about the mechanics of either motion; I'm just getting looser and, I suppose, just shaking my dominant arm might have the same effect.
@@IntuitiveTennis I've been thinking more about the ball throwing analogy, Nick, and I remembered that a very common trick for getting beginners to understand the service motion is to have them throw a tennis racquet overhand. And then a bit of serendipity struck: I saw this video this morning (th-cam.com/video/-Twx6gmB3JI/w-d-xo.html) where the presenter demonstrated the correct position of the hitting arm elbow by comparison with that of throwing the ball (see around 0:55). This was just the correct elbow position immediately before initiation of the racquet head drop, nothing more. Your point is correct although, within strict limits, there is some utility in the throwing analogy.
George, beginners must learn by actually serving. There are no tricks in tennis. I’m getting repetitive in my answers here, but here I go again. The coach in your video has the elbow pointing forward prior to the forearm release. He might not be conscious that this is taking place, but this is how human beings throw objects. It is not how we serve in tennis. I’ll say it again. Throwing and striking are different biomechanically. The tennis serve is unique and therefore difficult to master. I appreciate your comments, they are always very thoughtful. All the best
The serve is a throwing motion , only your throwing up instead of horizontal with the ground , you should have threw the ball up instead of horizontal to get a better comparison , the racket is a lot heavier than a ball 57 grams vs 300 grams so 6x heavier , your central nervous system will account for this using different muscle groups , find a ball that weighs 300 grams and throw it , the difference will be similar , i can serve at 120 mph without much training because i can throw an american football over 50 yards . If you have a good throwing arm you will have a fast serve . If the serve is not a throwing motion then what is it ? it can only be a Push if its not a throw, and the serve is definitely not a pushing motion .
Nice video Nick! Is it possible for you to make a video on Inside out/Inside In footwork and weight transfer/distribution, Placement, when and where to hit?It is one of the biggest factors for success in Men tennis. Thanks
Enlightened insight! Ben coaching sin 2006, PTR certified 2009, I've been encouraging practicing throwing including Nerf footballs for those who have trouble with the pronation. Other than that it's just serve practice. If you think I should discontinue the early pronation troubles with throwing practice let me know. Otherwise that was a very valid, thought-out discussion on the serve. The best description of the throwing motion for the serve I've ever heard.
I like the video, however, most juniors and even some adults have a very stiff elbow. I love having them toss a ball as at least it teaches the elbow drop. I completely agree that they are different, but I find a faster more fun way for kids to at least develop somewhat the elbow drop (having some bend) is by tossing balls. P.s you’re funny, I saw your arm action you can throw a tennis ball quite well! ^_^.
Just because there's some difference doesn't mean there aren't a lot of similarities. For me, feeling my natural throwing motion and incorporating elements of that into my serve has really helped with power. Before I did this my serve was too sideways and thin.
Sir ok throwing is not serving. But a scientific studies published by ITF (my memory) found that there is a strong relationship between how long an athlete throws an object and his potential serve velocity. As a tennis instructor I have checked this with my pupils . The longer the throw the fast is serve. I'm very interested in your opinion. Thanks, Pietro from Italy
Pietro, I’m not familiar with that study. But if you tried throwing a ball at a ceiling you get no power and it fees completely unnatural for anyone. We get power from that same position effortlessly on the serve, because there are different biomechanics involved. Are good throwers good servers? I’m sure they are, it doesn’t hurt having a fast arm. However, is throwing a good way to teach someone how to serve? In my opinion it is not.
What do you think of this “imperfect” analogy: throwing motion is more like a catapult motion, the tennis serve is more like a trebuchet, with the racket being the sling?
Actually, let's qualify this. If a girl is throwing the ball, yes it is different. If a boy, who grew up throwing baseballs and footballs the correct way, is throwing the ball, then it is very similar.
Only video i have to disagree with. And no offense..but bc you didnt throw alot growing up your throw is much less fluid than your serve motion (mental) bc you didnt throw as much as you served growing up. Its ok to be wrong in the one instance. Ive learned so much my you btw.....thank you!
Regardless people agree or disagree with the title statement. I, personally don't like using throwing baseball motion example when explaining serve motion, why? Simply because it is totally different sport that I am not familiar with, does it mean I have to learn game of baseball before engaging in tennis?
Mi S, you do not. Learn tennis! However if you asked me which sport can benefit tennis the most? I would definitely say soccer. Incredible for stamina and footwork. All top ATP (and some WTA) are incredibly skilled soccer players.
Nick, as always thank you for your valuable insights. On the serve, does the elbow come closer to the head or is the "elbow up" simply the result of the body tilt and the shoulder over shoulder motion?
The only problem with your distinction is that you never learned to throw properly and thus you believe that the elbow should be pointing to the target when throwing. A professional throwing athlete like a baseball pitcher or quarterback will never have their elbow facing the target before the ball is thrown. This would eliminate lag and result in a slow delivery. The elbow is very similar in both serving and throwing in that it remains more to the side of the body than toward the target. Watch one of the greatest baseball pitchers ever to see what I mean: th-cam.com/video/27NJuOcUq_k/w-d-xo.html
Great detailed analysis. Imo, whether or not the two are similar is a matter of semantics to a large extent -- how you define "similar" or "like". There are enough gross physical movements in common - general back of head forward (or up) arm movement, weight transfer, some body rotation, etc, to make many people say the two are similar. But for you, as an expert in identifying the detailed differences between the two, you see them as dissimilar. Having said that, I do believe it is important to know these differences, as it adds to our overall knowledge of serve bio-mechanics, which enables us to develop better technique.
Timestamp 1:25 shows how an young american football player translate throw into serve (notice that his serve is using the throwing motion and it looks like a pancake serve, it is is very slow and has no spin, th-cam.com/video/qysDjLXs0_U/w-d-xo.html). Also noticed that the contact point has to be very low and a lot in front of the server, their wrist move in a very fast, twitching manner, the ball just spray everywhere. There are a lot differences, maybe intuitive tennis can chip in and explain? :)
Penn, lol where do you find this stuff man. You are good. I don’t like tooting my own horn, but this basically confirms every single point I made in the video. Who are these guys btw? High school football?
@@IntuitiveTennis Not sure, I just randomly search on youtube and this shows up first. You are probably right, they are probably high school football/basketball players.
I agree that if using a throwing motion to serve, it would be very hard to put top spin on the ball. Also I think it is appropriate to point out that Europeans do not play baseball or football, but they hit the serve pretty well.
From my experience as recreational player, throwing serve is very effective when it comes to waiters serve motion. But not for good pronation serve. Like the concept of striking the ball rather than throwing. With all these arm action, pronation, wrist use, serve has become most complicated action in tennis. But your version makes sense to me and easier to make small adjustments while serving.
Manju, why would you want a waiters serve motion, or be content in having one? And the serve doesn’t have to be complicated if you stick to fundamentals. 👍👍
Nick, I'm not at all content with waiters serve. Currently in transition phase to full pronation serve. It might take few more months for full pronation, muscle memory, speed and accuracy. Thanks to your videos. Quite valuable.
Hi Nick, I have a question. When you are serving, are you thinking at all about consciously moving your (serving) arm, or does your arm move on its own accord based what you do with your torso and legs and because it’s loose? I’m assuming it’s the latter.
The arm is not as relaxed as people think and it’s consciously being moved in sync with the rest of the body (certain parts of serve are not conscious movements however)
@@IntuitiveTennis what part of the arm movement is conscious? How do you and the pros get such good racquet drops and natural pronation? When I tend to use too much of my arm, I don’t lead on edge as well which is absolutely crucial.
Almost all *American* coaches. No European coach will ever compare the serve to a throwing motion. It's cultural bias, because of the importance of throwing in American sports.
Different they are but I found the analogy always helps the kids that stop in the 'scratch the back' position instead of having a fluid swing. They generally have a more fluid throw so they just get the idea a bit more to not stop I've found..It doesn't help the kids that can't throw though
First, you need to learn how to throw. Surprisingly though, some of what you are saying is useful to a powerful tennis serve. However, you do not understand how and why the elbow can be the key to a powerful serve. I will give you a hint: If you use the elbow to direct the leverage of the upper arm (humerus) you will be exploiting the use of a 3rd Class lever - where power at the fulcrum (shoulder) converts to speed of the lever (upper arm) and all that is attached to it: forearm and racket. Carry on...
The non-throwing arm IS intricately involved in a correct throwing motion; lots of other things to pick at here. IMO the case was not made well because they are quite similar; not to say identical.
What do you think about throwing a sling with a figure-8 technique? This is the closest thing I've seen to a tennis serve: th-cam.com/video/VK3IuZIhzP8/w-d-xo.html
@@IntuitiveTennis I see. Perhaps the only difference with a sling throw is that you need a little extra torso rotation to release the projectile from the pouch, versus a serve which relies on collision to strike the ball. However, don't you think there are still many traits of the sling throw that will be helpful in teaching the serve? Like having a loose arm, feeling the pendulum momentum of the sling tip, transferring the kinetic chain from the legs on up to the arm, and maximizing speed at the tip in a whip-like action?
aidanfoxworth : "Mr. Federer, I need help with my serve. Do you have any tips for a beginner trying to improve?" iamrogerfederer: "Make sure you focus on your ball toss so it's always in the same place. Keep your elbow up. Just try to mirror throwing something." - Roger Federer, Reddit AMA 2013 Nik I really enjoy your videos, but The Maestro would seem to disagree with you. :)
@@maxpowers4436 You're right. I agree that pros most often have no idea what they are really doing when it comes to technique. But I did find it interesting that Federer said this (and I think you should too). All right then, forget Federer. For a more relevant discussion, I would ask this: can you name any other tennis coach with significant credentials who will endorse the position that "the serve is not a throwing motion"? Even just one? If you can, I would honestly like to know, because after learning from many, many tennis coaches, I haven't heard anyone else saying it -- not one person ever! Nik is in the very, very small minority on the position that the serve is not a throwing motion. Virtually all high level coaches teach that the serve is an overhand throwing motion, at least to beginning students or those with poor serve mechanics.
Nik says the serving arm doesn't act like a throwing motion. The tossing arm obviously has a ... tossing motion. Federer's quote is not in disagreement.
i think the title is too misleading a description. similar to what others said, the serve motion is basically throwing the racq upwards but ending with accelerating the racq head. throwing: forearm pronation at 25sec th-cam.com/video/jZKvJY6gDfg/w-d-xo.html :) edit: at 25sec mark of the pro pitcher, his elbow is barely ahead of his body, and his wrist/forearm is pronating, not flexing. perhaps your throw is different nick?
La Bamba, at the 25 sec mark his dominant shoulder is way ahead of his non-dominant shoulder. How does that resemble a tennis serve? 2.49 is what the elbow looks like on a serve. See the dominant shoulder? Now if you tried throwing a ball from from 2.49 mark. What do you think would happen?
Be glad that you didn't play baseball throwing like that you would have had Tommy John surgery at age 12. Lol. But decent video problem is your explanation of a proper serve is actually the proper mechanics for a good throw as well.
@@IntuitiveTennis when you throw your doing what is called short arming causing serious strain on your elbow. In proper mechanics you start by dropping the arm straight down while keeping your fingers on top of the ball until your arm reaches shoulder height. Then lead with your elbow and pronate the hand to the fingers underneath the ball. A new form of throwing which creates more velocity is to actually over pronate the hand at the release point exactly like a serve (this is being taught to players now and is said to cause less strain on the elbow and shoulder).
@@IntuitiveTennis there's alot more to it but the only real difference is that in a serve I feel you are restricted to stay behind aline causing different weight transfer with the same arm motion.
Somewhat different but a lot of similar. Tell you why my son played pro baseball as a pitcher. After he quit he started tennis. He can serve around 130+mph. Guys who played university level tennis have to literally stand at back fence to return and still get aced. He pitched in mid 90s. So it's true that arm speed translates both to tennis and baseball or football QB So you're not 100 correct. Drew Brees career passing leader NFL beat Andy Roddick twice in juniors. Look at this factor if euros good at service grew up throwing they would have arm speed to adapt to fast serving.
No question great athletes especially professional baseball/football players will have a fast arm that will translate into a fast serve. However, throwing does nothing to promote serve fundamentals, because of the unique characteristics of the tennis serve.
Hey Mooncat, I think you nailed it in the head. Serving is exactly like spiking a volleyball. The only Pro players that can serve without that technical move are the very tall ones. Above 190 cm in height you can do pretty much anything and the ball will go in.
I think tennis serve and base ball throwing is very simmilar . Basiscally almost same. If you throw the ball to up to the sky it will be very same with serve.
Human beings utilize forward momentum to throw by initiating forward momentum and torso rotation prior to releasing the ball. Whether it’s a grandma throwing something or a baseball pitcher, it’s the same. We do not throw vertically. If we did there is absolutely no power behind a vertical throw. However, on a tennis serve we can can strike the ball with tremendous speeds in a vertical “upward” fashion. Yes there are similarities but different biomechanics at play.
Yes if you practice throwing a ball over a high object (such as a floodlight at your courts) from close range - so your motion is primarily upwards -this would help your serve. Then after you’ve got the power through the whip in your arm you just need to time it with the ball toss. Thanks for your video - it’s very useful for this reason. ATP forehand is also like a throwing action - it’s like skimming a stone.
I agree. Of course not exactly. But if you look at Nick throwing mechanics and serving not all that much different. And if you picture the racket head being an extension of your hand the concept is easily assimilated. For instance a flat serve is 90% similar to a fast ball. A power slice is usually confused w a flat especially into the T from the ad side. Watch Roger or Novak serve that one from court level. it usually has a little cut or tiny bit of slice action. The serve out wide into the duece is more of a severe slice or slider as even McEnroe calls it these days a term he picked up from baseball. If you don't put a lot of slice it behaves like a cutter ( cut fastball) . more pace and less slice action. But these are things us baseball players and even a all round sports fanatic like John McEnroe will pick up on easily. I'm not sayin100% similar but about 90. But let's face it why would an American go into tennis and possibly be just OK on a pro level and not make anything much if he can throw a ball and get guarantee big money. We ain't dumb. That being said coach Nick has a really smooth throwing motion so he has the benefit of a smooth arm motion he can work in both throwing or serving.
Penn, since you bring up baseball. I had the privilege of teaching a couple of MLB pitchers and while these guys had power they had a very difficult time executing the service motion correctly. Being good at throwing doesn’t mean you will be good at serving. I don’t like using anecdotal evidence and stick to hard facts as provided in my video, but there’s my little MLB story for you.
@@argokan You refer to an unnamed source. I can do the same "at least one". But I don't. I'm not the one referring to experts in biomechanics. You are. But you refuse to give any name. An anonymous source is no source.
In your slow motion serve, it demonstrates that you are not fully pronating at impact. Whilst the serve is most likely perfectly fine in trajectory it's less efficient. Funny enough your slow motion throw demonstrates full wrist pronation.. lol Good throw... ok serve.
Anthony To actually, his throw doesn’t have any wrist pronation at all, his palm faced downwards after his throw Full pronation would be palm facing towards the camera (90 degrees), and most tennis pro players would be more at a 45-60 degree angle.
LaBamba, no such thing as a throwing serve. The girl’s elbow is pointing forward even though she’s throwing the ball higher. The only way to accurately mimic the serve would be to point the elbow straight up towards the sky. And you will never see anyone do this, because that is not how we throw, but indeed is precisely how we serve.
i am a bit puzzled by the comments re how the throwing and the serving are different. of course it is different when you have a 27" extension in your hand, hitting a ball at peak overhead reach! but the acceleration motion sequence and feeling are indeed quite similar. perhaps a video of throwing a ball to the usual serve contact point? that would be closer comparison i think. one sees how good throwers tend to naturally be powerful servers, and bad throwers are weak servers. my tennis is not good, but my physics is ;p. fyi: apparently this girl won the US U12 a year later at 11yo th-cam.com/video/AKCBJXdkjf8/w-d-xo.html :)
I guarantee you if you take a group of professional baseball pitchers who have never played tennis and have them try a tennis serve, they will do better than a bunch of professional basketball players who have never played tennis and then try to serve. Why? Because the baseball pitchers KNOW how to throw, and throwing is SIMILAR (not exactly) to serving.
Serve is a throw upwards, at 75-80 degree to the horizon. Try throwing a ball (or even a raquet if you not afraid to ruin it) on the other side of the court with as high trajectory as you can. You wil get the perfect serve motion.
Ok maybe the serve is a throw upward to begin the fluid motion but after you reach the apex you have to drive downward in a fast powerful motion to create the downward velocity of the ball going into the court flat and slice. Even a kick where you first contact the back side of ball and drive upward first you have to eventually drive downward or the ball would just fly up in the sky or at best sail over the service box.
Kao bivsi rukometas koji se poceo bavit rekreativno tenisom (bez trenera), moram rec da svi ovi videii vezani za wrist action su mi, vjerujem, od velike pomoći. Ne bih nikad skuzio da se zglob ne smije aktivno koristit u završetku udarca (forehand, serve..) jer je totalno suprotno od tehnike sutiranja, ili throwing motion. Jako lijepo objasnjeno, ovo ti je jedan od najboljih videa
I feel that it is a throwing motion of the racquet. The contact point of the ball in a serve is the release point of pitching a baseball. Most instructors say it is similar to pitching a baseball , not exactly as pitching it. It is similar and i feel a good premise for teaching the serve. Seems to have worked for a lot of players.
I think the throw is a good 'rough guide' to the serve principle but agree, ceases to be useful after the elbow moves upward whereupon a throwing technique no longer correctly applies, you're right there is a subtle difference. Great advice, thank you Nick. Gordon
ripleygordon, thank you
Thank you, this video gave a distinction to what I’ve been feeling for a long time. I’ve struggled with my serve because I’ve tried to replicate the throwing feeling and thus I over rotate a lot on my server, along with other problems.
Thank you for the video. It's really helpful to understand how the serving mechanism works.
The serve is a throwing motion. Throwing up into the air not straight through it.
The serve is like an upward throw. Not a forward throw.
@@maxpowers4436 The ball is going down, but you are not touching the ball directly, you are touching the racquet. The motion you of swinging the racquet in a serve is very similar to an upward throw
Amazing instruction! Out of the beaten AND WRONG path. Thank you!
Mauricio, 🙏👍
One of the best videos on TH-cam to improve the serve !
I've always thought of the serve as being similar to throwing a tennis ball in a vertical path versus horizontal. When you throw a ball straight up in the air, the action forces you to turnover your shoulders or rotate them. It helped me a lot as a beginner.
This is like saying sprinting is running but jogging is not. Don't need to overcomplicate a stroke that is already complicate in itself.
Good analysis. I’m sure you are correct. However my wife’s serve improvement has tracked her improvement in throwing the ball. We throw balls of different weights (heavier than tennis balls) before each serve practice. She had a habit of bringing her elbow out to the side after racquet drop. Hitting around the ball with little power. Throwing the ball with emphasis on elbow forward helped correct this. Yes, she doesn’t serve with elbow entirely forward like a throw but the ball throwing broke her of her “elbow out” habit. I’ve found that we have to overemphasize or overcorrect to to break a bad habit. We also throw balls upward in a high arc and mimic the toss before the throw. Shoulder over shoulder. Pretty close to an actual serve motion. Additionally we throw the balls with upper body rotation (back of the left should to the target). This has improved her upper body rotation on her serve. We also throw an old racquet and a badminton racquet high and forward on the lawn. Even though the throw is not the same as you have shown, throwing balls and racquets has helped my wife. Especially when she progressed to being able to throw upwards while mimicking the ball toss. Weighted balls also build those serve muscles.
I'm a Quarterback. I coach it and I have studied the biomechanics of it. I am here to tell you the serve is almost exactly like throwing the deep ball in football. Also, I played American football in Germany and I can also say that if European tennis players would play more football and baseball their tennis serve would be better generally speaking. This is not to say there aren't subtle differences and that they should be observed when serving. That point is well taken. Serena's dad used to literally have her throw racquets...just sayin Ben Shelton. Roddick. Isner. Something about having played American sports that helps their serve?
I agree 200%. I played quarterback and threw balls throughout my childhood, and it’s unequivocally the reason I developed a very good serve in tennis as a small guy. In tennis you learn to adapt to the proper shoulder position involved in serving but we always used a football 🏈 to help our young players with the service motion. And love training guys who played baseball or played quarterback because they quickly pick up the service motion. Great post @Jac1616!
I agree, the serve is not a typical throwing motion, but there are many similarities with throwing a deep ball in American football, particularly if it is a platform stance serve.
A normal throw also in American football is more of a horizontal throw, so the vertical body axis in such throws will be almost perpendicular to the ground. However if throwing a deep ball, then also in American football there will be a tilt, not only a tilt of the shoulders but also a tilt of the vertical body axis. An other difference between the tennis serve and a good normal horizontal throw, is that as the thrown ball is released the arm is bent at the elbow, whereas in a tennis serve the racket-arm is extended and basically in line with the right shoulder above the left shoulder. However if an American football is thrown for a deep ball, with what would generally be considered a flawed "side arm" technique, then things get much more similar to a tennis serve. The tennis serve would still have a considerably higher trajectory than a deep throw in American football (or even a Hail Mary), so it is not exactly the same thing, but if it happens to be done in a "side arm" throwing technique some aspects get somewhat similar. The flaw that results in a "sidearm throw" is when the left shoulder is thrown to the left with the left arm, this will force the right arm to stretch out to the right, and thus the American football thrown with such a "side arm" technique would miss the target wide, laterally. In a good throw of an American football (or handball) normally the left hand should stay firm somewhere below the chin (sometimes described like holding a sandwich), and the left shoulder should not move to the left or move down, because if the left shoulder and arm would move down then the right arm would go up, and tend to straighten out parallel along the neck (as in a flawed beginners serve in Tennis), in American football this would be resulting in missing the target high (such a throw however can happen in baseball). However in a good tennis serve what happens with the tossing arm is leading to something similar to the "side arm" throw, known as a flaw in a normal American football throw (if it is intended as a precise and more horizontal pass, a "side arm" throw tends to not be prices and miss the target wide). At the end of the toss in the Tennis serve, the tossing arm will point up and sometimes as in the case of Roddick come slightly across the chest, with the chest pointing up to the sky. As the serve is triggered and the weight transfer and immediately following hip rotation starts, the racket will start its drop down over and behind the shoulder, and the toss arm will move forward and down. This initial movement of the toss arm going forward and down with the left shoulder moving to the left, helps the racket arm to straighten even if in a successive phase the toss arm will tuck in on to the chest, and this will also have an impact on the rotation of the upper body. At the end of the serve after contact during the landing, then the toss arm can also straighten out again, and move back to balance the body in the landing. But this movement that happens way after contact does not impact the racket arm acceleration to the ball anymore. I am ambidextrous, even though I play mainly with the right hand, and serve in a pinpoint stance both with the right hand and with the left hand, but having started practicing throwing the American Football both with the right and the left arm has helped my left handed Tennis serve to improve, even if I try to throw the American football with proper technique and not "side arm" even when trowing a deep ball. I guess I would say that the stroke in Tennis that comes closest to a normal throw in American football is a bouncing smash close to the net of a ball that only bounces a bit higher then the head, that is obviously an easy put away, and it doesn't have to be punished. But if this smash near the net after a ball that did not bounce much higher then the head is hit hard, then it would result in similar motion as a normal throw of an American football, with the arm unusually bent at the elbow and the left arm staying rather firm in position, with the left hand a bit under the chin and not too far in front of the chest. An other Tennis stroke that comes a bit closer to throwing a deep ball but "side arm" is a smash from near the baseline, this will be executed in a platform stance even by most players that normally serve in pin-point stance (hardly anyone would throw pin-ponit), and even if it is very similar to a normal serve, the missing tossing action helps to make it a bit more similar to a "deep throw" from American football, even if the tossing arm is brought into a similar position as after the toss. Apart from weight transfer and hip rotation that can be effectively trained with throwing an American football, I found that something that can help generate extra power in the tennis serve is the "dissociation" (by dissociation I refer to having the shoulders more turned then the hips, kind of like in a "corkscrew-serve" but not too extreme, rather than just a normal coil where both the shoulders and the hips are turned in a similar angle with the back facing the net), and this "dissociation" and not just a coil is needed in American football to have an effective throw, BTW this "dissociation" was not very marked in Nikola's throw of the tennis ball. An other element from American football throwing that I find helpful for the tennis serve is a particular position before releasing the throw, this results in something similar to the position of the arms that Roddick had in his abbreviated service motion, just before trophy pose. Something like a horizontal double-L position, when serving the toss arm normally is in a slightly different position, but as Roddick tended to move the toss arm across the chest there is more of a similarity with what I mean. It resembles the position one would be in when separating two people that are starting a fight, or the position one stands in when opening a heavy door, just that when serving it is not horizontal, but with a tilt and the right shoulder lower than the left shoulder. Anyway both elbows are more or less in line with the shoulders the arms are moderately bent at the elbow (hence "double-L", even if it is a bit less than 90°) and the palms are facing outwards, with the thumbs pointing down (not too dissimilar from the position that Jannik Sinner has on his forehand during racket take back, with the left arm parallel to the ground and thumb pointing down, just that his elbows on the forehand take back are naturally not in line with the shoulders and that because he has a semi-western grip on the forehand the racket is facing the back fence with the contact face, instead of facing the court as would be the case with the continental grip on the serve). If tilted, with the right shoulder lower then the left one, this position results in the racket face being parallel to the ground palm down (if holding the racket with a continental grip), the American football in this position tends to point up with the front tip, while the tip where the index finger is (this would be the side of the ball in direction of the racket head, if holding a racket instead of a ball) tends to point to the ground. Just after this position the American football moves up (roughly in direction to the ear), and then the trow is triggered by the conjunction of weight shift, hip-rotation and left arm-shoulder moving to the left in case of "side arm" throw. In the tennis serve going through this "palm down" position, or in the case of an abbreviated motion sort of starting from this "palm down" position, results in good arm motion and acceleration afterwards, and if the the arm is flexible enough the racket will tend to "flare out" to the right on its way up to ball contact on edge, before the internal rotation of the arm and shoulder and pronation bring it to strike the ball on contact.
Actually I found that a good way to teach
the serve and overhead to beginners, is to have them start first from
a position approximately similar to this "flare out" position (even if
it is not exactly the same), rather than from a normal trophy pose. By
"flare out postion" I mean a position that is actually quite similar
to a trophy pose or "Nike-swoosh", with the toss arm up vertically but
the racket arm is in line with the tilted shoulders, and the elbow of
the racket arm is bent at 90 degrees at the elbow with the forearm
pointing up (elbow in line with the tilted shoulders). The difference
is that the racket now would be held in a position not pointing to the
server's head but in the opposite direction (the butt cap of the
handle is pointing to the student's head), with the forearm supinated
rather than pronated, and the racket in the same plane as the arm and
forearm (as much as possible, depending on how flexible the person is)
plus slight "radial deviation" (that is a movement where the wrist is
in a position that brings the thumb closer to the forearm, the
opposite of "ulnar deviation" which brings the pinky finger closer to
the forearm). From this position it is basically impossible to bring
the racket to ball contact in a "frying pan" or "waiters tray"
position, if the racket is held in a continental grip. All the
beginner will have to do is shift his weight to the front foot, and
turn the hip forward, if the chest is pointing up to the sky then that
hip rotation will then turn the shoulders, if there is at least slight
"dissociation" in the coil. With the toss arm simultaneously coming
forward and down to then tuck closer to the chest, the racket-arm will
automatically go up to the ball contact, and the forearm will pronate
from the initially supinated position. After serving from the "flare out" position, the progression would then be to serve from a position just before the racket drops back down (similar to that before hitting a smash, with the elbow in line with the shoulders and the racket in front of the body and roughly at eye level and pointing forward, then the wrist is in a position similar to that of Raonic before tossing, but "palm down" so that the contact face of the racket is almost parallel to the court), then from the "trophy position", then from the "double-L" position, and finally do a complete serve starting with the ball next to the racket-head before the toss starts (BTW to bring the racket directly into the "palm down" and "double-L" position, it helps to start the toss with the toss-hand touching the left side of the racket frame/the upper part, rather then the right side of the frame/the lower part, -kind of the opposite of what Kyrgios does- , in detail: starting with an already pronated forearm and a bent wrist, and the racket pointing down, contact face of the racket facing the back fence, this helps to bring the racket straight to the "palm down" position before the acceleration starts without having to do any additional movements until rreaching the double-L position, from there the wrist will loosen up and the racket will stay palm down as it gets to the position before it drops down behind the back, this is the position of the wrist that Raonic assumes in accentuated way already before starting the toss). Sorry for the length, but I
hope I was able to give some constructive critique. BTW compliments
for the videos, I've watched a few of the ones where you teach
absolute beginners and they are just great! Frankly the students too!
@@jerrycallows3906 I'm afraid you've misunderstood, the comparison is between the motion in a high level tennis serve and a high level throwing motion.
Specifically between the power sources (i.e. weight-shift from the right leg to the left leg, and generation of hip rotation and thereafter delay of that rotation through use of the legs sending the rotation up through the torso to the shoulders, and dissociation between hips and shoulders, and then delay of the shoulder rotation to transfer the energy in the arm), and the motion that the arm performs (i.e. internal rotation of the shoulder-arm unit, and pronation of the forearm, and finally ulnar deviation) which when throwing puts the spin on the prolate spheroid that an American football is, to get it to spiral. The angular momentum of this spiral keeps the American football stable on the trajectory to the target, and reduces air resistance which would occur through eccessive wobble.
The basics o this motion of the arm is very similar to that in a high level tennis serve, even though there are important differences such as the arm's trajectory which for the tennis serve is very steep upwards, it feels almost vertical in fact (plus the "side-arm" technique for tennis that gets the arm to stretch is different from that of normal high-level throw, where the arm is bent at the elbow just prior to release with the forearm vertical, however for an experienced thrower it is possible to achieve this modification through use of the left arm).
So the comparison has nothing to do with tossing the ball in a tennis serve, or throwing the tennis ball or racket to the ball.
But if one is already able to put a good spiral on the American football (probably handball experience will have a similar consequence, but it lacks the visual proof of effect that seeing the ball spiral has), it will help to adjust that motion to execute a good serve, and also the generation of power from the ground up will be facilitated, even if there are some differences there as well (to put it short, in the throwing motion of American football the feet don't get airborne and only the heel of the right foot lifts while the toes stay in contact with the ground, but there are other differences as well).
@@jerrycallows3906 it's certainly true that one needs to toss the ball in the correct position, which is around a foot, or half a foot into the court (depending on if it is a flat or slice serve, or a kick serve which can be made contact less far in to the court than the flat serve) and around 12 o'clock with the left shoulder as reference (or if one does not care about disguise, then the kick actually works best around 11 o'clock, and the slice closer to 1 o'clock), but having a rather constant toss with the correct placement is a prerequisite for a decent serve.
If one's toss is going all over the place it will clearly lead to the player trying to catch up with the ball chasing it, and ruin the swing to contact of the racket.
So in that sense you are right that spending time to fix the toss is time well spent.
Over the years I've experimented with various tossing motions (parallel and diagonal mainly, the straight one kind of made it difficult to coil) and in the end the one that I feel most reliable is a toss that starts with the ball behind the left shoulder.
This way the toss can be controlled through three variables, the depth into the court y-axis (parallel to the center mark on Ad-court) is controlled by a kind of minimal "backhand-motion" similar to the swing of contact in a "one-handed backhand" with a straight arm, this motion makes it pretty sure that the ball will always go in front into the court and never behind you behind the baseline. This initial part that controls the depth of the toss is a bit like a J-toss, but the rest is more like a parallel toss, so my tossing motion is like a combination of a J-toss and a parallel toss.
The x-axis parallel to the front foot (when serving from the Ad-court it is also pretty much parallel to the the baseline, on deuce-court it is angled between 45° and 60° to the baseline), is controlled by the arch on the ball, the more arch the ball has the more it will go to the left to 11 o'clock, the less arch is put on the ball the more it will be around 1 o'clock and this arch is controlled by minimal variations of the height of release, between eye level and forehead (closer to eye level leads to a small er arch, releasing a bit higher leads to a bigger arch more to 11 o'clock).
The height of the toss or z-axis of the placement for the contact point of the toss I try to keep constant, so that the apex of the arch is about 3 feet above the contact point of racket with the ball, and I try to control this height of the ball by a constant speed of the toss starting slow and then get faster without really speeding up too much.
To get the toss more fluid it can help to bring the straight tossing arm back behind the left shoulder, in a short and slow looping motion, about a foot distant from the body (a bit like Edberg used to do, even though it's not exactly the same motion, just to have something as a visualization), to not start the toss from standing point which can lead to a bit of jerky motion.
Before starting the toss it can help to slightly tilt the head to the tossing shoulder and what definitely helps is to look to the release point of the toss (around eye level) already shortly before the tossing motion starts (Federer used to do this), and then follow the ball on the initial part of its upward trajectory as soon as it passes through the release point one is already looking at.
Personally I find it best to toss the ball up holding it like a cup (a bit like Federer), holding the ball only with the base of the thumb and the base of the ring finger, it kind of rests on the slightly curled up pinky, while the index finger and middle finger are in line with the arm and barely touch the ball. When I grab the ball I place it at the base of the fingers (base of index, middle finger and ring finger, while the pinky finger points upward to the right of the ball), put the base of the thumb over the ball and then turn the hand with the back of the hand facing the returner, this way the arm is relaxed even if it is straight. While if the palm is facing upwards there is normally a bit of tension in the arm, and tension in the arm can be problematic in critical scoring situations, leading to a bad toss.
The toss is then executed only with the shoulder and resembles a left-handed "one-handed topspin backhand", but without bending the arm around the elbow and without any wrist action. As the the hand goes through the point of release around eye-level, it opens up and the ball goes up without excessive spinning.
BTW to loosen up the toss arm it helps to create a bit of tension in the racket arm, because it is difficult to keep both arms loose, it's enough to grip the racket firmly, but without exaggerating. Then conversely after the toss, the tension of straightening out the toss arm will loosen up the racket arm.
One last tip is to coordinate the toss with a rhythm that remains the same on each serve, I match it with a breathing rhythm, inhaling while I look to the returner, then I exhale as I put the ball next to the racket frame, and start the toss in an "apneic pahse" a bit after having finished to exhale. Then I inhale in the loading phase and exhale after contact, I try to keep this rhythm constant, and tossing while holding breath helps to focus on executing a placement of the ball, almost like dishing the ball up to the contact point.
Perhaps some of this can be useful also to you.
They would be very similar if you throw up instead of forward, right?
I agree with the statement, "The serve is not a throwing motion".
However, I think the only problem I have with your reasoning is that you are cherry picking differences between the throw and the serve, when there are also similarities that you could actually learn from. The focus of the drill is much more important than the drill itself. Focus on differences and you learn nothing, focus on similarities and maybe there is something you can take away.
Further, I do agree that the only way to actually improve the serve is by serving. Throwing is simply a tool to help the student learn certain principles of movement, and should not be used as the main way to learn to serve.
I understand that you are distinguishing the difference in body mechanics in throwing and hitting a tennis service. However as a former baseball player who pitched as well as hit as a batter I already understood the strategy and tactics. I was trained to move the ball to different locations over the plate, change the spin and pace on a pitch and pitch according to the count of strikes and balls, runners on base etc. A fast ball is like a flat serve, a curve ball is like a slice serve, a dropper is like a kick serve. You have to remember what batters like and don’t like. Find their weakness and exploit it especially when you need to win a point to win a service game or survive a break point. As a batter you learn to try to read a pitcher for body moves that tell what type of pitch they will throw. When returning I already knew how to watch where the toss was placed or mannerisms
that gave away the location or type of service was going to be delivered.
You Europeans are smart cookies and I guess you are also the world's best players. Good analysis and insights.
Ay!, Thank You. 👍🙏
nikolas and thomas(feels) are the best pros ive come across that break it down in such a beautiful yet mechanistic way, as a fellow slav i think we also intrinsically believe in sharing this type of knowledge and not keeping it as some kind of elitist secret, like i feel tennis is taught here in the US. I was frankly flabbergasted when i came to US 1st time and saw that tennis here was seen as this exclusive private club type of sport, when it couldnt be farther from the truth.
Thanks Nick! As always professional! This is a very important point. elbow movement.
Vitya, thank you
Myth is busted! The problem is that it’s difficult for people to change their belief system. After all,
there are still people who believe the world is flat. This is very evident from the many comments disagreeing with your premise. If people believe that throwing a ball helps them have a good serve it will be hard to overcome that belief. I have seen instructors have their students practice throwing a ball to help them with learning to serve. Serving is so much more complicated than throwing a ball. Thanks for trying to help and don’t stop voicing your opinions even if there are dissenters.
Thank you 🙏, another video on this subject if you are interested
th-cam.com/video/BARUG9spopk/w-d-xo.html
The throwing motion angle for max range is 45deg upwards. Basic throwing physics
Hi Nick, I am not discrediting your findings or your opinion on this matter, but I know from my personal experience in teaching people who have never served before that having them throw balls from the service line to the baseline in a upwards trajectory definitely enhances their chance of understanding how to serve correctly. The cartwheel effect is 100% accurate and the best way to describe the shoulder over shoulder displacement in generating racket speed and a consistent serve motion. Thanks for always sharing your ideas, experience and insights. Don
It is indeed tempting to draw this parallel between a serve and a throw, likely because throwing seems easier and more familiar. I can only say from my own experience that my serve deteriorated severely as soon as I started to think about it as a throw - it became fragmented, lost natural rhythm. Even if the serve was like a throw (which it is NOT because the objectives are different, we have to strike an object in perfect timing vs simply throw an object without that timing requirement), how useful would such parallel be for the serve training? Which throw are we talking about? It it a baseball, football, javelin, cricket ball, a dart? Each has a very distinct technique. Would you be satisfied in a training advise if a coach said "throwing a football is like throwing a baseball" or "throwing a javelin is like throwing a dart" ??? Not to mention that an average person can't throw ANY of the above mentioned objects correctly, so what kind of technique would they be referencing when trying to improve their serve? But if the motions of the serve and a throw are similar enough for anybody to draw a parallel between them, why not then say that serve is like chopping wood or hammering a nail into the wall, or smashing a pinata at a b'day party - all of them actually involve a similar arm action and uses an object for striking. How useful are those activities for serve training?
Excelente! Great lessons! Thank you very much
Thank you Guillermo
I found a lot of people disagree in the comments. Frankly speaking, util I had my aha moment in my serve, I thought serve was similar to throw racket up. Actually you are very right. Serve is more similar to whipping than throwing.
Look if you can only serve a flat first serve 80mph then you are either not athletic or older or doing something wrong. There's many techniques of serving from am abbreviated motion like an old time player like Roscoe Tanner who could serve past 140 mph with a small racket head to say Fed who is probably one of the best all time w classic style. Watch Roddick serve who probably would beat Fed at Wimbledon if they didn't slow the grass down. He's totally different approach than Fed. Then look at Rafa whose serve is mediocre at best by ATP standard. He uses a pinpoint style ( moving his back foot to even w front before hitting ) where Fed and Djok use platform stance with feet spread at 45°angle to baseline. The proof is if you can hit a first serve 110 on up with consistency and direction then you are starting to do things right if your a reasonably athletic guy. If you are just hitting cream puffs in it doesn't matter what technique you think your using cause at the end of the day your hitting cream puffs.
It would be better to serve a volleyball than to throw a ball for the correct arm motion, as the ball is not held in the hand. In both volleyball and tennis the ball is struck not released.
well said Keiser th-cam.com/video/zKBOZux6d_8/w-d-xo.html
Very good video and I thought the same.But it seems that for many people "serving is a throwing motion" is a kind of mantra.All the best.
Catalin, good to hear from you old friend. You are absolutely right. Throwing in the United States is a religion. Dads take their kids out to throw and it’s a part of life. So people are taking this as a personal insult and refuse to look at the stone cold facts.
@@IntuitiveTennisLet them throw.You pointed out very clear that involving the non-dominant side (arm and shoulder),makes the difference from the start.
Catalin, thank you brother. 👍👍
It's like this Americans grow up throwing baseballs and footballs. We have a conscription of an arm slot and a downward propelling of a ball with velocity. European grow up playing ⚽ ie kicking. So if you take a European and say go kick field goals in American football after a short time he'd adapt faster to that then an American who never played soccer. Same way with an American who developed technique of throwing over the years. Now if a European kid started tennis early he may be good at serving if athletic because he was taught the specific techniques and had a strong arm.
@@IntuitiveTennis True to a point in America if a kid has a great arm he's kinda revered growing up. He gets a chance to pitch in baseball and lots of recognition or a chance to play the glamour spot in football (quarterback.) I'm by no way saying just serving fast and accurate will make you a super tennis player as tennis is one of the most complex sports. I tell some of the macho guys football and baseball guys that tennis actually takes more all around skill development than any sport out there. But here's the proof if you take 10 guys who say could throw good enough to play college baseball and 10 guys who never really grew up throwing a ball but were soccer players and good enough to play college soccer I can almost guarantee you that you can teach the baseball players to serve quite well after say 2 months 5 lessons per week but the soccer players who never threw would have a much more difficult time. Now they learn could learn in time but it would be a very foreign feeling for them in the beginning.
Awesome video! Thanks!
Guillermo, thank you 👍
Nick, I love all your previous video but I just couldn't bring myself to agree to this one.
Yes you could be technically correct that the serving motion is not exactly identical to a throw. However, in my mind, serving is for all intents and purposes throwing your index finger knuckle upward to the sky and allowing the racquet to pivot around the wrist to strike forward. That concept promotes a natural shoulder over shoulder formation as well as loose wrist at contact. It works fantastically well for me and my son as a mental image.
Your points on elbow and shoulders are also doubious because the sky is the "throwing" target when serving, not the opponent. You might need to compare the motion of serving to one of throwing a ball to the sky.
Thanks for your effort anyway.
Nik is demonstrating a throw that is more like one meant to be caught by a teammate (low powered). For a throw that is difficult to handle for the OPPONENT, one needs to incorporate exactly what Nik points out is lacking--torso rotation with the dominant shoulder above the non-dominant shoulder as it comes through. This position is seen in many baseball pitchers, including Sandy Koufax, the Roger Federer of pitching. th-cam.com/video/idaxs6bm6LM/w-d-xo.html If you slow it down to 0.25 you can also see his elbow pointing to the sky at 28.
Teaching throwing the racket like a ball helps the student correlate how the relaxation suppose to work, then just adding elbow path, pronation, tennis mechanics and etc. into it.
dE Swedonn that will complicate the matter , you cannot get out of it, i think.
The better comparison would be with professional baseball pitchers. Once I made the connection, the tennis serve clicked for me.
A thoughtful analysis of the different motions, serve vs. throwing, Nick. Thanks!
I think your analysis is well documented in the slow motion comparisons of the two motions. Nevertheless, I find that when I do some shadow throwing motions, especially when my service rhythm starts to break down, this helps. I think the reason is that there is one commonality between throwing and serving: the dominant arm has to remain rather relaxed (though focused). At least in my case, a few shadow throws tends to counter my periods of "concrete arm". Of course, when doing this, I'm not thinking about the mechanics of either motion; I'm just getting looser and, I suppose, just shaking my dominant arm might have the same effect.
My thoughts too. Beyond a relaxed arm, the throwing analogy breaks down.
Peter, George, thanks guys. 👍👍
@@IntuitiveTennis I've been thinking more about the ball throwing analogy, Nick, and I remembered that a very common trick for getting beginners to understand the service motion is to have them throw a tennis racquet overhand. And then a bit of serendipity struck: I saw this video this morning (th-cam.com/video/-Twx6gmB3JI/w-d-xo.html) where the presenter demonstrated the correct position of the hitting arm elbow by comparison with that of throwing the ball (see around 0:55). This was just the correct elbow position immediately before initiation of the racquet head drop, nothing more. Your point is correct although, within strict limits, there is some utility in the throwing analogy.
George, beginners must learn by actually serving. There are no tricks in tennis. I’m getting repetitive in my answers here, but here I go again. The coach in your video has the elbow pointing forward prior to the forearm release. He might not be conscious that this is taking place, but this is how human beings throw objects. It is not how we serve in tennis.
I’ll say it again. Throwing and striking are different biomechanically. The tennis serve is unique and therefore difficult to master.
I appreciate your comments, they are always very thoughtful.
All the best
The serve is a throwing motion , only your throwing up instead of horizontal with the ground , you should have threw the ball up instead of horizontal to get a better comparison , the racket is a lot heavier than a ball 57 grams vs 300 grams so 6x heavier , your central nervous system will account for this using different muscle groups , find a ball that weighs 300 grams and throw it , the difference will be similar , i can serve at 120 mph without much training because i can throw an american football over 50 yards .
If you have a good throwing arm you will have a fast serve .
If the serve is not a throwing motion then what is it ? it can only be a Push if its not a throw, and the serve is definitely not a pushing motion .
Put your serve on a video and show us so that we can learn.
@@kykwan49 plenty of videos on youtube of pros serving in slow motion - watch them -
Nice video Nick! Is it possible for you to make a video on Inside out/Inside In footwork and weight transfer/distribution, Placement, when and where to hit?It is one of the biggest factors for success in Men tennis. Thanks
Ricky, thank you. I will definitely cover that shot. You are right that it’s a huge factor for success on ATP. Except for Benoit Paire lol.
Intuitive Tennis And Ernest gulbis, Haha! Thanks for your response. Looking forward to the video soon. Good day
Ricky, 😂 👍
Enlightened insight! Ben coaching sin 2006, PTR certified 2009, I've been encouraging practicing throwing including Nerf footballs for those who have trouble with the pronation. Other than that it's just serve practice. If you think I should discontinue the early pronation troubles with throwing practice let me know. Otherwise that was a very valid, thought-out discussion on the serve. The best description of the throwing motion for the serve I've ever heard.
I don’t think throwing is harmful for the serve. It’s especially good as a warm up for the shoulder
I like the video, however, most juniors and even some adults have a very stiff elbow. I love having them toss a ball as at least it teaches the elbow drop. I completely agree that they are different, but I find a faster more fun way for kids to at least develop somewhat the elbow drop (having some bend) is by tossing balls. P.s you’re funny, I saw your arm action you can throw a tennis ball quite well! ^_^.
Thank you 💪
Yes 100% i agree with you , it has nothing to do with throwing motion , completely different muscles used , different motion, you are a great coach .
Hussein Ali, thank you. I agree with the different muscles being used (I didn’t cover that part). 🤝🎾👍
What if it were a vertical throw? Would it be similar then?
You may be correct but it’s difficult to really tell as you have a beautiful serve but horribly flawed throwing mechanics 😂
Just because there's some difference doesn't mean there aren't a lot of similarities. For me, feeling my natural throwing motion and incorporating elements of that into my serve has really helped with power. Before I did this my serve was too sideways and thin.
Sir ok throwing is not serving. But a scientific studies published by ITF (my memory) found that there is a strong relationship between how long an athlete throws an object and his potential serve velocity. As a tennis instructor I have checked this with my pupils . The longer the throw the fast is serve. I'm very interested in your opinion. Thanks, Pietro from Italy
Pietro, I’m not familiar with that study. But if you tried throwing a ball at a ceiling you get no power and it fees completely unnatural for anyone. We get power from that same position effortlessly on the serve, because there are different biomechanics involved.
Are good throwers good servers?
I’m sure they are, it doesn’t hurt having a fast arm.
However, is throwing a good way to teach someone how to serve?
In my opinion it is not.
@@IntuitiveTennis I understand. Probably it's the fast arm that help to serve faster. Thanks for your kind response..
What do you think of this “imperfect” analogy: throwing motion is more like a catapult motion, the tennis serve is more like a trebuchet, with the racket being the sling?
What’s a trebuchet
@@IntuitiveTennis th-cam.com/video/bmSl9AqmVyc/w-d-xo.html
😂
@@IntuitiveTennis You must play Stronghold or AOE. 😂
Actually, let's qualify this. If a girl is throwing the ball, yes it is different. If a boy, who grew up throwing baseballs and footballs the correct way, is throwing the ball, then it is very similar.
Well... What do you think about the youtube video "How to Serve Like Federer and Sampras by Throwing not Jumping" by TPA Tennis?
Only video i have to disagree with. And no offense..but bc you didnt throw alot growing up your throw is much less fluid than your serve motion (mental) bc you didnt throw as much as you served growing up. Its ok to be wrong in the one instance. Ive learned so much my you btw.....thank you!
Except that he's totally right. But it's ok for you to be wrong in this instance.
Regardless people agree or disagree with the title statement. I, personally don't like using throwing baseball motion example when explaining serve motion, why? Simply because it is totally different sport that I am not familiar with, does it mean I have to learn game of baseball before engaging in tennis?
Mi S, you do not. Learn tennis! However if you asked me which sport can benefit tennis the most? I would definitely say soccer. Incredible for stamina and footwork. All top ATP (and some WTA) are incredibly skilled soccer players.
Thank
Nick, as always thank you for your valuable insights. On the serve, does the elbow come closer to the head or is the "elbow up" simply the result of the body tilt and the shoulder over shoulder motion?
Thanks for the video Nick, great content. What about the forehand? Is it a throwing motion? Similar to skipping a rock?
The only problem with your distinction is that you never learned to throw properly and thus you believe that the elbow should be pointing to the target when throwing. A professional throwing athlete like a baseball pitcher or quarterback will never have their elbow facing the target before the ball is thrown. This would eliminate lag and result in a slow delivery. The elbow is very similar in both serving and throwing in that it remains more to the side of the body than toward the target. Watch one of the greatest baseball pitchers ever to see what I mean: th-cam.com/video/27NJuOcUq_k/w-d-xo.html
Great detailed analysis. Imo, whether or not the two are similar is a matter of semantics to a large extent -- how you define "similar" or "like". There are enough gross physical movements in common - general back of head forward (or up) arm movement, weight transfer, some body rotation, etc, to make many people say the two are similar. But for you, as an expert in identifying the detailed differences between the two, you see them as dissimilar.
Having said that, I do believe it is important to know these differences, as it adds to our overall knowledge of serve bio-mechanics, which enables us to develop better technique.
kjfoehr, thank you Kevin 👍
Will you experts just agree on the basic moves?
Timestamp 1:25 shows how an young american football player translate throw into serve (notice that his serve is using the throwing motion and it looks like a pancake serve, it is is very slow and has no spin, th-cam.com/video/qysDjLXs0_U/w-d-xo.html). Also noticed that the contact point has to be very low and a lot in front of the server, their wrist move in a very fast, twitching manner, the ball just spray everywhere. There are a lot differences, maybe intuitive tennis can chip in and explain? :)
Penn, lol where do you find this stuff man. You are good.
I don’t like tooting my own horn, but this basically confirms every single point I made in the video.
Who are these guys btw? High school football?
@@IntuitiveTennis Not sure, I just randomly search on youtube and this shows up first. You are probably right, they are probably high school football/basketball players.
@@IntuitiveTennis Also, th-cam.com/video/3OKM5oZALW8/w-d-xo.html Essential Tennis teaches similar things as well
I agree that if using a throwing motion to serve, it would be very hard to put top spin on the ball. Also I think it is appropriate to point out that Europeans do not play baseball or football, but they hit the serve pretty well.
Hi Nik, does the same logic apply to overhead/smash? That it's not a throwing motion?
Yes
From my experience as recreational player, throwing serve is very effective when it comes to waiters serve motion. But not for good pronation serve. Like the concept of striking the ball rather than throwing. With all these arm action, pronation, wrist use, serve has become most complicated action in tennis. But your version makes sense to me and easier to make small adjustments while serving.
Manju, why would you want a waiters serve motion, or be content in having one?
And the serve doesn’t have to be complicated if you stick to fundamentals.
👍👍
Nick, I'm not at all content with waiters serve. Currently in transition phase to full pronation serve. It might take few more months for full pronation, muscle memory, speed and accuracy. Thanks to your videos. Quite valuable.
Manju, that’s great. Thank you
Hi Nick,
I have a question. When you are serving, are you thinking at all about consciously moving your (serving) arm, or does your arm move on its own accord based what you do with your torso and legs and because it’s loose? I’m assuming it’s the latter.
The arm is not as relaxed as people think and it’s consciously being moved in sync with the rest of the body (certain parts of serve are not conscious movements however)
@@IntuitiveTennis what part of the arm movement is conscious? How do you and the pros get such good racquet drops and natural pronation? When I tend to use too much of my arm, I don’t lead on edge as well which is absolutely crucial.
@@AirGuitar racquet drop th-cam.com/video/jx9k2Gik7Nk/w-d-xo.html
racquet drop leak: th-cam.com/video/mebvb2nYO7o/w-d-xo.html
Almost all TH-cam coaches believe in throwing motion except this one.
Almost all *American* coaches. No European coach will ever compare the serve to a throwing motion. It's cultural bias, because of the importance of throwing in American sports.
It’s just like throwing a football
Different they are but I found the analogy always helps the kids that stop in the 'scratch the back' position instead of having a fluid swing. They generally have a more fluid throw so they just get the idea a bit more to not stop I've found..It doesn't help the kids that can't throw though
Fluid not fluent .
@@davidrothschild8913 😂 yes, thankyou
@@YehShano no problem.
First, you need to learn how to throw. Surprisingly though, some of what you are saying is useful to a powerful tennis serve. However, you do not understand how and why the elbow can be the key to a powerful serve. I will give you a hint: If you use the elbow to direct the leverage of the upper arm (humerus) you will be exploiting the use of a 3rd Class lever - where power at the fulcrum (shoulder) converts to speed of the lever (upper arm) and all that is attached to it: forearm and racket. Carry on...
The non-throwing arm IS intricately involved in a correct throwing motion; lots of other things to pick at here. IMO the case was not made well because they are quite similar; not to say identical.
What do you think about throwing a sling with a figure-8 technique? This is the closest thing I've seen to a tennis serve: th-cam.com/video/VK3IuZIhzP8/w-d-xo.html
These are throwing mechanics. Play it in .25 speed and you’ll see torso rotation taking place prior to the forearm release
@@IntuitiveTennis I see. Perhaps the only difference with a sling throw is that you need a little extra torso rotation to release the projectile from the pouch, versus a serve which relies on collision to strike the ball. However, don't you think there are still many traits of the sling throw that will be helpful in teaching the serve? Like having a loose arm, feeling the pendulum momentum of the sling tip, transferring the kinetic chain from the legs on up to the arm, and maximizing speed at the tip in a whip-like action?
aidanfoxworth
: "Mr. Federer, I need help with my serve. Do you have any tips for a beginner trying to improve?"
iamrogerfederer: "Make sure you focus on your ball toss so it's always in the same place. Keep your elbow up. Just try to mirror throwing something."
- Roger Federer, Reddit AMA 2013
Nik I really enjoy your videos, but The Maestro would seem to disagree with you. :)
@@maxpowers4436 You're right. I agree that pros most often have no idea what they are really doing when it comes to technique. But I did find it interesting that Federer said this (and I think you should too).
All right then, forget Federer. For a more relevant discussion, I would ask this: can you name any other tennis coach with significant credentials who will endorse the position that "the serve is not a throwing motion"? Even just one? If you can, I would honestly like to know, because after learning from many, many tennis coaches, I haven't heard anyone else saying it -- not one person ever! Nik is in the very, very small minority on the position that the serve is not a throwing motion. Virtually all high level coaches teach that the serve is an overhand throwing motion, at least to beginning students or those with poor serve mechanics.
Nik says the serving arm doesn't act like a throwing motion. The tossing arm obviously has a ... tossing motion. Federer's quote is not in disagreement.
i think the title is too misleading a description. similar to what others said, the serve motion is basically throwing the racq upwards but ending with accelerating the racq head.
throwing: forearm pronation at 25sec th-cam.com/video/jZKvJY6gDfg/w-d-xo.html
:)
edit: at 25sec mark of the pro pitcher, his elbow is barely ahead of his body, and his wrist/forearm is pronating, not flexing. perhaps your throw is different nick?
La Bamba, at the 25 sec mark his dominant shoulder is way ahead of his non-dominant shoulder. How does that resemble a tennis serve?
2.49 is what the elbow looks like on a serve. See the dominant shoulder?
Now if you tried throwing a ball from from 2.49 mark. What do you think would happen?
Be glad that you didn't play baseball throwing like that you would have had Tommy John surgery at age 12. Lol. But decent video problem is your explanation of a proper serve is actually the proper mechanics for a good throw as well.
Eric, can you explain the proper mechanics for a good throw?
@@IntuitiveTennis when you throw your doing what is called short arming causing serious strain on your elbow. In proper mechanics you start by dropping the arm straight down while keeping your fingers on top of the ball until your arm reaches shoulder height. Then lead with your elbow and pronate the hand to the fingers underneath the ball. A new form of throwing which creates more velocity is to actually over pronate the hand at the release point exactly like a serve (this is being taught to players now and is said to cause less strain on the elbow and shoulder).
@@IntuitiveTennis there's alot more to it but the only real difference is that in a serve I feel you are restricted to stay behind aline causing different weight transfer with the same arm motion.
It means you don't fully understand what a throw is.
Somewhat different but a lot of similar. Tell you why my son played pro baseball as a pitcher. After he quit he started tennis. He can serve around 130+mph. Guys who played university level tennis have to literally stand at back fence to return and still get aced. He pitched in mid 90s.
So it's true that arm speed translates both to tennis and baseball or football QB So you're not 100 correct. Drew Brees career passing leader NFL beat Andy Roddick twice in juniors. Look at this factor if euros good at service grew up throwing they would have arm speed to adapt to fast serving.
No question great athletes especially professional baseball/football players will have a fast arm that will translate into a fast serve. However, throwing does nothing to promote serve fundamentals, because of the unique characteristics of the tennis serve.
I serve almost the same as I spike a volleyball.
Hey Mooncat, I think you nailed it in the head. Serving is exactly like spiking a volleyball. The only Pro players that can serve without that technical move are the very tall ones. Above 190 cm in height you can do pretty much anything and the ball will go in.
I think tennis serve and base ball throwing is very simmilar . Basiscally almost same. If you throw the ball to up to the sky it will be very same with serve.
Human beings utilize forward momentum to throw by initiating forward momentum and torso rotation prior to releasing the ball. Whether it’s a grandma throwing something or a baseball pitcher, it’s the same. We do not throw vertically. If we did there is absolutely no power behind a vertical throw. However, on a tennis serve we can can strike the ball with tremendous speeds in a vertical “upward” fashion. Yes there are similarities but different biomechanics at play.
Yes if you practice throwing a ball over a high object (such as a floodlight at your courts) from close range - so your motion is primarily upwards -this would help your serve.
Then after you’ve got the power through the whip in your arm you just need to time it with the ball toss.
Thanks for your video - it’s very useful for this reason.
ATP forehand is also like a throwing action - it’s like skimming a stone.
I agree. Of course not exactly. But if you look at Nick throwing mechanics and serving not all that much different. And if you picture the racket head being an extension of your hand the concept is easily assimilated. For instance a flat serve is 90% similar to a fast ball. A power slice is usually confused w a flat especially into the T from the ad side. Watch Roger or Novak serve that one from court level. it usually has a little cut or tiny bit of slice action. The serve out wide into the duece is more of a severe slice or slider as even McEnroe calls it these days a term he picked up from baseball. If you don't put a lot of slice it behaves like a cutter ( cut fastball) . more pace and less slice action. But these are things us baseball players and even a all round sports fanatic like John McEnroe will pick up on easily. I'm not sayin100% similar but about 90. But let's face it why would an American go into tennis and possibly be just OK on a pro level and not make anything much if he can throw a ball and get guarantee big money. We ain't dumb. That being said coach Nick has a really smooth throwing motion so he has the benefit of a smooth arm motion he can work in both throwing or serving.
For laughs: th-cam.com/video/Oo65GSzYrkA/w-d-xo.html
Also th-cam.com/video/giUvFoItgGo/w-d-xo.html
Penn Su, 😂😂 where did you find that?
Penn, since you bring up baseball. I had the privilege of teaching a couple of MLB pitchers and while these guys had power they had a very difficult time executing the service motion correctly.
Being good at throwing doesn’t mean you will be good at serving.
I don’t like using anecdotal evidence and stick to hard facts as provided in my video, but there’s my little MLB story for you.
@@IntuitiveTennis Random searches :)
And yet you have a video teaching serves with throwing balls?
I don’t
@@argokan Which leading biomechanics experts?
@@argokan You invoked them, not me.
@@argokan You refer to an unnamed source. I can do the same "at least one". But I don't. I'm not the one referring to experts in biomechanics. You are. But you refuse to give any name. An anonymous source is no source.
@@argokan so i have to prove that your source, which you refuse to cite, doesn't exist?
Throwing motion and throwing are different things
In your slow motion serve, it demonstrates that you are not fully pronating at impact. Whilst the serve is most likely perfectly fine in trajectory it's less efficient. Funny enough your slow motion throw demonstrates full wrist pronation.. lol Good throw... ok serve.
Anthony To actually, his throw doesn’t have any wrist pronation at all, his palm faced downwards after his throw
Full pronation would be palm facing towards the camera (90 degrees), and most tennis pro players would be more at a 45-60 degree angle.
throwing serve th-cam.com/video/6EFWB18kPWY/w-d-xo.html
:)
LaBamba, no such thing as a throwing serve. The girl’s elbow is pointing forward even though she’s throwing the ball higher. The only way to accurately mimic the serve would be to point the elbow straight up towards the sky. And you will never see anyone do this, because that is not how we throw, but indeed is precisely how we serve.
I actually see her motion changes when she serves versus when she throws. They are still very different.
i am a bit puzzled by the comments re how the throwing and the serving are different. of course it is different when you have a 27" extension in your hand, hitting a ball at peak overhead reach! but the acceleration motion sequence and feeling are indeed quite similar.
perhaps a video of throwing a ball to the usual serve contact point? that would be closer comparison i think.
one sees how good throwers tend to naturally be powerful servers, and bad throwers are weak servers.
my tennis is not good, but my physics is ;p.
fyi: apparently this girl won the US U12 a year later at 11yo th-cam.com/video/AKCBJXdkjf8/w-d-xo.html
:)
I guarantee you if you take a group of professional baseball pitchers who have never played tennis and have them try a tennis serve, they will do better than a bunch of professional basketball players who have never played tennis and then try to serve. Why? Because the baseball pitchers KNOW how to throw, and throwing is SIMILAR (not exactly) to serving.
You can fool some of the people some of the time and tennis people all of the time especially with this video.