Hi Terry, For a pole situation like that it is my understanding that best practise is to use a running bowline or the like on your climbing line and to have that positioned at your feet or shins. This keeps your climbing line well out of the way of your lanyard and the area where you are making cuts, which makes it extremely unlikely that you would cut both your lanyard and climbing line by accident. It also has the benefit that your climbing line is choked against the main stem, so in the event of a violent release when removing the crown it will not be thrown off the stem, where as your lanyard might. The other comment I wanted to make is that I am not certain that is the correct way to load your rope through the descender eight. My understanding is that a bight of rope should be fed through the large opening and then looped over the small opening, then the small opening should be clipped to the harness krab. Configuring in this way means the rope is correctly running over the arms of the device and not rubbing on itself. The way you have it configured the rope looks like it is running on itself, which in a rapid emergency descent could seriously jeopardise the rope. Also your configuration is getting virtually no friction assistance from the device - you are much closer to holding your own weight, which in an emergency situation may not be feasible. Bottom-line find the user manual for that eight and make sure you are using it correctly. A device of that kind should also be backed up with a prussik, as it is a pain to tie it off every time you move position in the tree and the device has no fail safe if you fall onto it, you will head straight to the ground if you do not have control of the dead rope. Its a simple and cheap descender, but I think the hitch hiker will be a much more satisfactory option. I do think your videos are very helpful and you have a real talent for explaining what you are doing in a way that is easy to understand.
In respect to your comment "A device of that kind should also be backed up with a prussik...", Eric Frei here, th-cam.com/video/gy4tdr1oZo0/w-d-xo.html , recommends against such an approach for the same reason you cite against Terry's mistaken configuration for the 8; That being that "in a rapid emergency descent [excessive rope friction] could seriously jeopardise the rope" (-- or the descent). So it seems that, to utilize the 8 correctly, it is necessary to do so without a hitch backup in order to allow for a safe and quick emergency decent. However i agree with you that during the descent, the soft lock is off, and there would be no rope on rope friction associated with the configuration of the 8. Good comments all around, still.
Mechanical adjusters on lanyards need to have a soft link that can be cut with a knife in an emergency. When spiking up a stem try to lean back a bit more, you were too close to the stem on your ascent that's why you gaffed out. When blocking down a stem your climbing line should be twelve inches below your lanyard thereby reducing the chances of both being severed by a saw cut. That eight wasn't set correctly, a bight of rope goes through the large eye from the back and then over the small eye from the front, the eight is then clipped onto your bridge. Eights need to be backed up by a prussik. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast!
Gotta love the thought process that went into this. Practice is everything. Now I better understand why, when doing a top cut, professionals carefully separate the lanyard on top, then below that the cowtail for the rigging, and below that the rope for emergency descent, with a hitch around the stem that would permit a single rope rappel straight down. As the top comes over, the rigging block flops down, uncovering the lanyard. That way one can easily loosen the lanyard to step down onto support from the rope. After flopping over, the rigging block will be laid over the top of the rope, but there is no interference between the two. Even if the top were to snag and trap the underlying rope, one could find secure rope lower down to attach a rappel device, to complete the descent.
Great lesson for the habitually unprepared that are laboring under misconceptions. *Reality check* If not practiced and skill developed an all to confident person can have a really, really bad day.
If the lanyard was stuck and it was an emergency I would just cut it so I could get down, If I had a steel core lanyard I put a soft shackle between the prussic and the clip so I can cut the soft shackle in an emergency,, works right?
Mr Hale May I ask your age and weight? I am 55 and I weigh 285 lbs. When I was younger 23-25 I was a climber for a big tree company. Now I want to try cutting again. And right now you are my hero. Thanks for your channel.
Tom, Really sorry to hear that (the 'hero' part). I'm now 67 and 235. I was probably 225 when I made those few climbing videos. I keep dreaming that I'll lose down to 210, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen. Thanks for the nice comment.
Thanks for the advice. One of my recent purchases was a set of six such soft shackles, just for that purpose. I planned to use one for a practice and demo. I guess all the rest were just due to bad vibes or pessimism.
Yep. I wondered if I could release my lanyard during a catastrophic failure of the tree I was on. I had my climbing line rigged to the next tree but what would the moments after the failure of the tree I was on, and the tension of me being the connector to the tree via my lanyard...Not a good thought. One thought is, a lanyard with an unfinished end and a prussic. Perhaps I could release the tree from my harness as it took tension. Another was a lanyard without a steel core so I could perhaps cut it from my harness and swing away. None of these would be as easy to do as they are to say. Kind of like discussing a bear attack. Oh sure, I can hit a bear with this pistol but not while the bear is shaking me....
Couple questions for everybody? A knife would work with rope but what about a steel core lanyard how would you cut that if injured and cant use the saw?? When I am climbing I been trying to figure out an escape route if something goes wrong.
Does anyone see that the figure 8 isn't hooked up as it is suppose to be?????? How can you do a tutorial on something when you can't use the equipment correctly? You should also have a helmet on in case you shake a branch loose while "teaching."
Hey Terry, thanks for caring but I think your concerns may be out dated or perhaps it should be directed to people who are...? I dunno. My point is, with the exception of pole climbers, only an arborist would find themselves in these emergency situations. I know it might be a struggle for the average Joe to support their body weight with one hand to release their lanyard with the other but for an arborist, that’s simply not a concern at all.
All true Terry . Good stuff. I use a short 'quickdraw' strap pinched from my crag climbing kit. They are rated and certified if you need that, and if you select dyneema or similar there's a good amount of abrasion resistance This sort of thing is marketed by several arb kit makers and you can just add it as a link in your existing system. honeybros.com/Category/Cut_Away_StrapsregardsPeteB
+Pete Bannister Thanks Peter. I noticed Soren Satellit (DK) using such a link. I'll have to order a couple once I figure out where. One will be for practicing with. I'm guessing I'll need to add a knife to my kit, rather than relying on my hand saw to sever the Dyneema.
I seriously would not recommend this, if you are cut you may pass out from loss of blood, then you cannot operate the friction hitch on the descent. love your videos tho man !
Thanks Paul. Yes. Very clumsy. i definitely decided that an 8 has no place in going up. It's just not good for progress capture. I am liking the Hitch Hiker. If I'm going to be cutting on a climb, I take a tourniquet with me. I have an unresolved debate with my wife (M.D.) whether I should use the tourniquet first or get down first. My instinct would be to stop the blood loss first. Hope I never prove the issue one way or the other.
www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=21&item=1860#detailor go with a good old 1" sewn nylon loop. Wrap 'em a few times to get the working length you need.
+Pete Bannister Thanks Pete. I was hoping to find something even a bit more compact, but that should do the trick. The extra length will put my rope grab in better view. Thanks again.
+John TheFrugalFatGuy Probably. I'm really not thrilled with where my self-rescue capabilities are now. I don't expect to ever need them, but I'd sure feel a lot better if I felt I could rely on them.
Your information is very good but some of the techniques that you're trying to speak about are no longer nonexistent 2019 thankfully innovators like myself I found ways no longer be bothered with the old day stuff
marco hanse Using a prusik for descending on a single line does not work well, as it will bind up. I would agree with your statement if he was using a mechanical descender such as a Petzl ID or Rig. However, when used correctly, a device with no moving parts like a figure eight is much more reliable than a prusik or other friction hitch.
Hi Terry, For a pole situation like that it is my understanding that best practise is to use a running bowline or the like on your climbing line and to have that positioned at your feet or shins. This keeps your climbing line well out of the way of your lanyard and the area where you are making cuts, which makes it extremely unlikely that you would cut both your lanyard and climbing line by accident. It also has the benefit that your climbing line is choked against the main stem, so in the event of a violent release when removing the crown it will not be thrown off the stem, where as your lanyard might.
The other comment I wanted to make is that I am not certain that is the correct way to load your rope through the descender eight. My understanding is that a bight of rope should be fed through the large opening and then looped over the small opening, then the small opening should be clipped to the harness krab. Configuring in this way means the rope is correctly running over the arms of the device and not rubbing on itself. The way you have it configured the rope looks like it is running on itself, which in a rapid emergency descent could seriously jeopardise the rope. Also your configuration is getting virtually no friction assistance from the device - you are much closer to holding your own weight, which in an emergency situation may not be feasible. Bottom-line find the user manual for that eight and make sure you are using it correctly. A device of that kind should also be backed up with a prussik, as it is a pain to tie it off every time you move position in the tree and the device has no fail safe if you fall onto it, you will head straight to the ground if you do not have control of the dead rope. Its a simple and cheap descender, but I think the hitch hiker will be a much more satisfactory option.
I do think your videos are very helpful and you have a real talent for explaining what you are doing in a way that is easy to understand.
In respect to your comment "A device of that kind should also be backed up with a prussik...", Eric Frei here, th-cam.com/video/gy4tdr1oZo0/w-d-xo.html , recommends against such an approach for the same reason you cite against Terry's mistaken configuration for the 8; That being that "in a rapid emergency descent [excessive rope friction] could seriously jeopardise the rope" (-- or the descent). So it seems that, to utilize the 8 correctly, it is necessary to do so without a hitch backup in order to allow for a safe and quick emergency decent. However i agree with you that during the descent, the soft lock is off, and there would be no rope on rope friction associated with the configuration of the 8. Good comments all around, still.
Yes he is agreat gentlemen
Mechanical adjusters on lanyards need to have a soft link that can be cut with a knife in an emergency. When spiking up a stem try to lean back a bit more, you were too close to the stem on your ascent that's why you gaffed out. When blocking down a stem your climbing line should be twelve inches below your lanyard thereby reducing the chances of both being severed by a saw cut. That eight wasn't set correctly, a bight of rope goes through the large eye from the back and then over the small eye from the front, the eight is then clipped onto your bridge. Eights need to be backed up by a prussik. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast!
Gotta love the thought process that went into this. Practice is everything. Now I better understand why, when doing a top cut, professionals carefully separate the lanyard on top, then below that the cowtail for the rigging, and below that the rope for emergency descent, with a hitch around the stem that would permit a single rope rappel straight down. As the top comes over, the rigging block flops down, uncovering the lanyard. That way one can easily loosen the lanyard to step down onto support from the rope. After flopping over, the rigging block will be laid over the top of the rope, but there is no interference between the two. Even if the top were to snag and trap the underlying rope, one could find secure rope lower down to attach a rappel device, to complete the descent.
Great lesson for the habitually unprepared that are laboring under misconceptions. *Reality check* If not practiced and skill developed an all to confident person can have a really, really bad day.
If the lanyard was stuck and it was an emergency I would just cut it so I could get down, If I had a steel core lanyard I put a soft shackle between the prussic and the clip so I can cut the soft shackle in an emergency,, works right?
You will love the hitch hiker. Works well in both srt and ddrt. Good, cheap, compact, and bullet proof.
+Tom Saad Looking forward to gaining experience with it.
I too ordered a Hitch Hiker and should be arriving next month. I'd be interested to see how it works for you!
-Jerry Rendon
Any update on the hitch hiker, guys?
Mr Hale May I ask your age and weight?
I am 55 and I weigh 285 lbs.
When I was younger 23-25 I was a climber for a big tree company.
Now I want to try cutting again. And right now you are my hero.
Thanks for your channel.
Tom, Really sorry to hear that (the 'hero' part). I'm now 67 and 235. I was probably 225 when I made those few climbing videos. I keep dreaming that I'll lose down to 210, but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen.
Thanks for the nice comment.
definitely a soft shackle between the carabiner and the mechanical prussic so you could set the figure 8 then cut the shackle to descend
Thanks for the advice. One of my recent purchases was a set of six such soft shackles, just for that purpose. I planned to use one for a practice and demo. I guess all the rest were just due to bad vibes or pessimism.
Yep. I wondered if I could release my lanyard during a catastrophic failure of the tree I was on. I had my climbing line rigged to the next tree but what would the moments after the failure of the tree I was on, and the tension of me being the connector to the tree via my lanyard...Not a good thought. One thought is, a lanyard with an unfinished end and a prussic. Perhaps I could release the tree from my harness as it took tension. Another was a lanyard without a steel core so I could perhaps cut it from my harness and swing away. None of these would be as easy to do as they are to say. Kind of like discussing a bear attack. Oh sure, I can hit a bear with this pistol but not while the bear is shaking me....
Couple questions for everybody? A knife would work with rope but what about a steel core lanyard how would you cut that if injured and cant use the saw?? When I am climbing I been trying to figure out an escape route if something goes wrong.
Another viewer suggested including a very short loop of rope to connect the lanyard's D-ring to your saddle. Seems like a good idea.
A twisted clevis in my system between the d-ring and the rope grab has made a big difference in my climbing.
Pls help. What is a twisted clevis please?
Does anyone see that the figure 8 isn't hooked up as it is suppose to be?????? How can you do a tutorial on something when you can't use the equipment correctly? You should also have a helmet on in case you shake a branch loose while "teaching."
I am looking at this vidéo again because you are fantastic.. but looking at figure 8 again i noticed the rope is installed improperly ...
I can’t believe you did not get hurt great point
Interesting. I climb utility poles, many differences in equipment and technique.
Hey Terry, thanks for caring but I think your concerns may be out dated or perhaps it should be directed to people who are...? I dunno. My point is, with the exception of pole climbers, only an arborist would find themselves in these emergency situations. I know it might be a struggle for the average Joe to support their body weight with one hand to release their lanyard with the other but for an arborist, that’s simply not a concern at all.
carabiners should have the gâte inside and open ing end up to release flip line on d rings of harness give it à try
Thanks! One of many important details I need to work on.
Thanks... helpful comment.
All true Terry . Good stuff. I use a short 'quickdraw' strap pinched from my crag climbing kit. They are rated and certified if you need that, and if you select dyneema or similar there's a good amount of abrasion resistance This sort of thing is marketed by several arb kit makers and you can just add it as a link in your existing system. honeybros.com/Category/Cut_Away_StrapsregardsPeteB
+Pete Bannister Thanks Peter. I noticed Soren Satellit (DK) using such a link. I'll have to order a couple once I figure out where. One will be for practicing with. I'm guessing I'll need to add a knife to my kit, rather than relying on my hand saw to sever the Dyneema.
I seriously would not recommend this, if you are cut you may pass out from loss of blood, then you cannot operate the friction hitch on the descent. love your videos tho man !
Thanks Paul.
Yes. Very clumsy. i definitely decided that an 8 has no place in going up. It's just not good for progress capture. I am liking the Hitch Hiker.
If I'm going to be cutting on a climb, I take a tourniquet with me. I have an unresolved debate with my wife (M.D.) whether I should use the tourniquet first or get down first. My instinct would be to stop the blood loss first. Hope I never prove the issue one way or the other.
*dont let the steel lanyards give you a false sense of saftey they cut just as easy as rope.*
www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?category_id=21&item=1860#detailor go with a good old 1" sewn nylon loop. Wrap 'em a few times to get the working length you need.
+Pete Bannister Thanks Pete. I was hoping to find something even a bit more compact, but that should do the trick. The extra length will put my rope grab in better view. Thanks again.
Looks like you would have been in more serious trouble had it been your right arm that was wounded.
+John TheFrugalFatGuy Probably. I'm really not thrilled with where my self-rescue capabilities are now. I don't expect to ever need them, but I'd sure feel a lot better if I felt I could rely on them.
Good observation.
Carry a tourniquet, or two. Always.
Your information is very good but some of the techniques that you're trying to speak about are no longer nonexistent 2019 thankfully innovators like myself I found ways no longer be bothered with the old day stuff
Put a simple prusic and slide down! Stop depending on crappy technology!
marco hanse Using a prusik for descending on a single line does not work well, as it will bind up. I would agree with your statement if he was using a mechanical descender such as a Petzl ID or Rig. However, when used correctly, a device with no moving parts like a figure eight is much more reliable than a prusik or other friction hitch.