The sales pitch for 8.6 at least for me was: A subsonic 342 grain bullet achieves full burn in a mere 8" barrel, and the ballistics allow an ethical harvest of deer at anything under 300yds. It makes for an incredible hunting rifle package for what 99.99% of hunting in north america really is. There's really no other hunting-capable sub round like it. My other hunting rifle is 4' long unsuppressed, adding on a suppressor is just getting absurd. It's just a clunky thing to be carrying around in the woods or crawling thru brush and it's heavy for a long hike or even just shooting knelt/seated on ground...etc. Suppressed 8" 8.6 blk is shorter than a typical AR15, and the rifle weighs nothing. Easy to carry, fun to shoot in every way. I don't need any ear pro that I'm going to forget and I usually double up. The only downside is you absolutely must carry a LRF or you're probably missing the 8.6 mortar round. You're probably carrying binos hunting anyway though, just have binos with LRF.
1. PSA puts out a 1 : 6.5 twist 224 Valkyrie. I got it and it’s great with heavy bullets but hornady black shredded. 2. Speaking of needing faster twist, the 25-06 is dying for faster twist for heavier bullets. I think even Ron spomer did a video with new black jack bullets on it.
So assuming the bullet stores roational energy like a flywheel, the 1:3 twist imparts 7 times more energy than a 1:8 twist. A .338" 210gr at 2300ft/s with a 1:3 twist has 155ft*lbs of rotational energy, where the 1:8 is only 22ft*lbs. Going to a 350gr at 1100ft/s drops the rotational energy to 57ft*lbs for the 1:3 and 8ft*lbs for the 1:8. So there is some merit in storing energy as rpm (angular velocity) in the bullet instead of just linear velocity.
I use them in 308 and there great shot flat enough to 300 yards pretty good to 400 yards. I used the 110gr x bullets for years in 7.62x39 308 and 300 savage. As well as 53gr in 22-250 220 swift. The old x 35gr and 40gr in 22 hornet and 222rem will do well with lung shots on deer. Did crop damage hunts for about 3 years with a buddy and his dad. Learned that a good hit with a 22 hornet is far better than and marginal hit with even a 375h&h. Witch I do hunt deer and bear with my 375h&h loaded with 235gr tsx at 2900 2950fps. Shot placement of and controlled expansion bullet is more important than how big or fast your cartridge is.
That's what I am going to use in .30-06, switching from nosler ballistic tips and hornaday interbond 150 gr. I just want to get away from lead as much as possible as far as feeding my family goes.
Do it! He’s the one who made me load my own this past year. I loaded them to 2970fps out of my 16” sig cross. Took the biggest buck on my lease this year when he was tending a doe, so I had to take a less than ideal shot in a rush. He was hard quartered towards me and was down a hill from me at about 80 yards. So I put the bullet fairly high and forward on the right shoulder. Full pass through and exited exactly where I wanted it, middle of the lungs just barely behind the left shoulder. Amazing performance for a 130 grain bullet doing roughly 2900fps at impact. He dropped immediately, struggled to his feet, stumbled 20 yards and dropped. In contrast, in the past I’d always hunted with my 270win that has roughly the same bullet weight and velocity with a Remington core lokt. It’s always done the job just fine, but that same shot with that placement and trajectory could’ve ended up less than ideal, either a lot of bloodshot and leadshot meat, or possibly a long tracking job with little blood
Don't forget the 375 Raptor. 308 Win necked up to 375 and the neck trimmed back enabling seating to mag length with common 375 bullets. Heavier subs available (400 grain) = more power. And supersonic loads are real thumpers 260 grain Accubond, 270 grain Speer SPBT! Runs perfect in the large frame AR with a simple barrel change
@@user-ql9pd8ll8w there are 400 gr for 8.6 Blk. 375 raptor is cool, just not reliable in a gas gun due to bullet diameter and feed rib in 308 magazines.
I think you misspelled "it needs custom modified magazines and has a larger disparity in port pressure from subs to supers, its also a reloading cartridge queen, but otherwise it's a beast".
Built one in a pistol configuration this past fall for MN deer season. Aero AR10 DPMS platform, 12” Faxon barrel and Silrncerco 46M suppressor. Tested out various factory loads from Gorilla and settled on the 210gr Barnes getting me out to 250 comfortably. Took my buck on a trot at about 60 yards and he went about thirty yards before tumbling. Was surprised to see no blood trail anywhere but total devastation inside the cavity. Entry was silver dollar size after going through a rib, heart was gone and lungs were melted away, and significant damage on the far wall but no pass through. The bullet dumped the horizontal and insane rotational energy so quickly and fractured to cause the damage it did inside. Planning to take it to TX with the 420gr loads for pigs next
I built an 8.6 on a rem 700 action. I shot a whitetail this year with it, at 80 yards in a run. I went through the right upper leg, through the lungs and blew out the left side taking out 3 sets of ribs. I used a 300 gr sub from gorilla. Ive got pictures if you all are curious.
@davidhochstetler4068 that round may have been to much for the deer, but pig would be great. Also 4570 has been used for what 100 years as a deer rifle.
You overlooked the Q 300blk guns are a 1in5 twist. Also phantom defense has 300blk 88gr supers that are moving at around 2600fps as well as 200gr subs, both are hyper expanding bullets that cause severe damage to the gel block or living tissue.
I built one with a 16 inch Q and loaded with the 160 tsx and 2 hole my white tail doe at 150yards and antelope 210 yards they both ran less then 20 yards and awaiting my can to play with sub loads. So far loving it
8.6 BLACKOUT!!! All and all I'm thankful for the attention it's getting. All the new offerings for subsonic hunting has really got me thinking of making a load for my 338 Federal. Looking into the 382 grain for subsonic hunting but haven't found any data to start from. Is there any advice you would be willing to share?
Merry Christmas 12" 1:3 Q taper (its open source on there website) Run the 350 gr Maker Rex, or maybe by then we should have the 375 gr figured out possibly bigger ( for Hunting). And if you are wanting to hand load plink rounds the 300 gr Berger or Lapua Scenars are awesome. Great podcast
My favorite cartridge talked for 2024 was “the 300 WSM, Barnes 212 Bore rider projectile and Mack Brothers element action. I’d love to hear more on this very interesting project with all these three👍🏻👍🏻
I bought a 338 federal ar10 barrel from Wilson combat before I realized they stopped making the cartridge. Ordered some 200gr Hornady ammo from hendershot and I honestly love it. Wish they'd bring it back. At least it was only a barrel, and it was on sale. It's not bad through a hybrid 46m either.
Great overview! A couple points to mention, the 8.6 blackout while subsonic has too little powder in too large a case (inconsistent powder burn) and it COULD lead to subsonic loads being less accurate due to vertical spread, also, good callout on the spindrift from the 1:3!
This is regurgitate from Hornadys podcast, and Q has already rebuffed it . Look it up. While spin drift is an issue at long range the 8.6 supers have already been taken out to 600 meters with a 9inch bullet with no accuracy issue. It's not a long relange target round, so hunting with it out past 600 isn't likely to happen.
i had the pleasure of being the rso for the Q booth for range day shotshow 2024. the first time i heard them shoot this thing from their fix with a suppressor it made me laugh. it totally sounded like a 40mm grenade launcher. then there was the delay when shooting steel at 200 yards thought the target was 500 yards because of the second long delay.
I have almost every one of the lead balloon you folks have talked about. They all work Great on game.6.8 spc,338 federal,8mm Rem mag,325 wsm this is just a few.
I agree with Jim here, Ruger American might just pick it up. Only thing that would change that is the fact that they can’t keep up manufacturing for all the traditional chamberings in the gen 2. Lots of traditional chamberings still not often available.
Art Alphin did a lot of work with twist rates in the 70s and 80s and early 90s most of his big board cartridges carried a one and 10 twist which of the most big bore were between one and 12 and one and 16
I am running a 16inch barrel 8.6 for dedicated supers. Currently running Gorilla 190gr Fracturing ammo. Have a 12 inch on the way for a dedicated sub gun.
Remington built 7600s in 35 whelen, my boss had one,they're constantly on broker for sale. They even had a hal blood limited edition with a ton of engraving.
First of all Jim there’s six of us 😂 And yes Ryan, you are the reason I now load Barnes TTSX in most of my hunting rifles. You are officially an influencer.
I really dig the cartridge talks. Keep them coming, please. Get some more of the hornady guys in there too. I enjoy their show also but think the dynamics are better on this show
Bought a m70 featherweight in 25WSSM in 2004. What a great rifle. Downsized the rifle came in at 6 lbs. With a 22 inch barrel. It also shoots the 120 grain bullets into the same hole. .3 is what mine averages. All accuracy nuts have always spoken how a short action rifle are more accurate than long actions. This was designed to even be stiffer. Winchester has to step up and put ammo out every few years. They are asking for a class action lawsuit for hyping these cartridges and then leaving every customer,winchester fans, holding a rifle you can't get ammo for. All they did was hurt the gun industry. Won't ever buy a newly developed cartridge fearing that it's acceptable to just quit the caliber when your ideas fail. Have never bought another winchester since this ammo debacle. I would think these are the rarest featherweight you can find. A true wichester collector should probably buy a couple. Wichester didn't give these cartridges a fair chance. They came out as us repeating arms was dying and browning picked winchester up. What is the fallout,I'll never buy a newly designed cartridge again. We already have every caliber in cartridges that are in stock. Light recoil,light weight and super stiff actions that were super accurate. Wichester should try again. The howa mini action is selling. Hearing you hate on this cartridge while 300 blackout,22 arc and other Supershort calibers come around . They will fade also if people look at a case and just throw hate at little fat cartridges. He'll the 25WSSM had a one year run before winchester folded. This is how winchester loses customers for life. Any 5mm remington out there.
The 1-3" twist was used to get the rpm up on mono or sold copper bullets in all barrel lengths to ensure reliable expansion. I.e. bullets from maker and some of the other boutique copper bullets. It was designed to overcome the issues of the 375 raptor. Like forming and then having to trim brass as well as not having to file the ribs on the inside of magazines to get it to feed right.
Yes and no, regarding the Raptor. To form 8.6BLK from 6.5CM brass, trimming and forming is needed just as with the Raptor. You are correct that the 8.6BLK profile was designed to work with 308win profile systems. The only potential issue with the Raptor is the mag ribs, like you mention. I haven't heard of any other problems regarding case shape. However, I have heard filing the ribs may not be needed. My Raptor is in a bolt gun; however, I do have some AR308 mags. The raptor rounds nose in very slightly, so I can see why some may not have issues. I would still recommend modding the mags. Its easy to do.
@ShadowAviator i have built both, if you do not file the ribs the mags swell and they will not lock in, when forming brass not all 308 cases can handle the neck stretching you can use 358 win to solve this problem but the brass is expensiveand not plentiful like the 308. As for 8.6 brass you can buy it new and formed with the proper head stamp. This might not be a big deal but it kind of is you are traveling and not everyone knows about case forming or wildcats. Lastly you can't buy commercially loaded raptor ammo and will likely never find it in 95% of the stores and you might find the 8.6 .... I love my wildcats but I've given most up when I could no longer find components.
@@tbrown91241 I guess I was refering to making the cases yourself, not currently available components. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I understand what you mean now. 375 Raptor stamped brass is being looked into. I have some myself. The mags swelling makes sense. Thank you for that info. A least poly mags are easy to modify. Regarding your case forming issues, how are you necking up? I mainly use 358 starline brass which isnt too expensive, but I have tried starline 308, winchester brand 308, and remington and federal once-fired 308. They have converted okay, but I expand in two steps using expander dies. 30-35 die, then a 33-38 die.
@ShadowAviator I was forming cases from 308 and 358, federal and gave me the most issue splitting the neck of almost every case. I have owned the 338 fed and 358 win as well, I run a 358 win and 180gr ttsx for my supers now and the 8.6 blackout for the subs. As for the mags you could get by with the lancers by running a round or two less than capacity otherwise the rounds would pop out of the top or jam up. Don't get me wrong I love the raptor and I believe it to be the better cartridge. Having the ability to switch powders with a given bullet weight and go from sub sonic to super sonic is huge, but with no following in the market it is a handholding only affair. And again if you run into a less than knowledgeable game warden or law enforcement officer it can turn into a pain.
I have a Rugged Alaskan 360 non Ti. Its light as balls, fits everything 9mm and smaller caliber with no barrel restrictions. Run it on my precision rifles and have had zero precision issues. Looks great, can run on your pistols, rifles or carbines. The Ti is really not as expensive as he makes it out to be at all. I got mine with a free tax stamp.
Kevin from Q said the 1/3 twist was to stabilize the big bullet. Helping it open up was a nice side effect. So with Hornady making it with a 1/8 twist I would love to see a accuracy test between them before I buy one. Preferably at 150-200 yards.
Are we talking cup and core bullet or solid copper ? target shooting or hunting ? with 8" 12" or 16" 1:3 you can expect 3/4 to 1 1/2 and with a good match bullet ( Berger ,Lapua , Maker ) with the hunting subs I'm seeing 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" ( with 350 Maker Rex) 338 ARC I haven't seen a chamber drawing on SAAMI website or shot it yet. Half the story hope it helps
I run a 8.6 in my Sig Cross. It works extremely well for subsonic and supersonic hunting. Once they get the twist rate back down to a 1:7, it’ll be an excellent cartidge.
@ Hi KB! I’m working on a video on this and I’d be glad to show you. Just a few quick thoughts on this: There are clear additional effects using the 1:3 in terms of terminal performance, especially at subsonic velocities using monolithic and cup and core bullets specially designed to open up especially with additional rotational kinetic energy. With a 1:7 however, you can accommodate a larger range of .338 projectiles at both supersonic and subsonic velocities for general hunting and target purposes with a lower chance of lead core bullets exploding in the air and a lot less spin drift at longer distances. If you offer a 1:3 as a hunting/brush twist, and 1:7 as a general purpose twist, you stand a very good chance at catching the guys still holding on to their .338 Federal. I know that scarcity and exclusivity drives some desire, but 300BLK sales are pretty good right now and the 8.6 has potential to have similar success, starting with multiple twist rates, and eventually converging onto a single one in the future depending on where the market goes.
@@FlatlanderGear running the 1in3 and 1in7 lines of ammo may cause more issues then sticking with 1in3. If all shelf ammo is designed for 1in3 for 8.6 then there won't be any issue it the bullets ripping apart in the barrel or before impact.
@@pjshooter6 on a practical matter at the moment, I agree since there are a lot of 1:3 barrels out there. I’m really advocating in the future testing and development on 1:3 and 1:7 because the twist rate and therefore the greatly shortened range due to it, poses the risk of being another boutique subsonic wildcat cartridge like .45-70 whisper. If you can reach similar ranges or at least 90 to 95% of the effective range of 338 Federal, you will have easily cornered the 338 short action market.
Again, if the goal is to fulfill YOUR specific criteria among your group, no problems there; but if you want widespread adoption and therefore maximum sales and royalties/contracts, offer it in 2 twist rates, work with ammo manufacturers, and eventually work towards a rifling design or twist rate that fulfills all the desired effects and normal ballistics the average consumer expects. On top of it, 1:7 might make load development for multiple barrel lengths easier.
I'm stilling waiting in the background for the cartridge talk about the almost forgotten quarter bore, one of my favorite rounds for deer hunting that has been brought up in passing a handful of times one this podcast. The all mighty 257 Roberts!
@@Swollenfishyid have a lot more similar dialogue from him it he hadnt blocked me for asking about 8.6 when it first was announced. I’d never heard if it before and i asked what it was and what it was for and he acted like i kicked his dog and went crazy on me ranting and raving till he blocked me.
Whats interesting on the twist rate talk is that Kevin called out hornady in a video saying that they designed a bullet specifically for the fast twist rate for the 8.6. My speculation is that a conventional twist rate for the 338 arc is to make it more versatile with existing bullets instead of a very specific bullet or bullet type. As always, I really enjoyed the cartridge talk.
With such as aggressive twist rate it makes me wonder if a progressive twist rate will become more common where a barrel starts and like a 1:20+ and increase over barrel length to final twist rate like 1:3 to reduce torque on the start of the rifling
I love the 350 Ledgen, just taking down deer like right there, just enough but not over kill. Under an inch at 100yds. Thanks for these podcasts, happy to have SO many choices.
Curious in how the barrel handles the heat generated from a 1:3 twist rate. How many rounds before the barrel needs colling down. Especially using supersonic rounds
@DMHal01 Yes but they have flown apart and f'd up suppressors. Also I don't care for SubX on deer sized game. I think solid copper expanders perform much better.
I am not a fan of any of the subx in 300 blk or 45-70. Not only is the 45-70 load not subsonic in a 20" cause it's going 1,190 it doesn't expand for shit at the recommended distance. I've shot 2 deer with it at 50 and 120 yards and it was just essentially a slow fmj.
@JNOSNOW Exactly 💯. I have seen it in ordinance gel, clear gel, and game. You get a caliber size hole, the lead dispersed throughout your meat shedding valuable weight, and your left with shank that weighs 50% less than what you started with.
18:22 Hornady recommends cup and core bullets be kept at 300,000 rpm or slower to avoid them blowing up. This is the challenge with 22 Creedmoor and heavy bullets: the twist rate required to stabilize them at speeds the cartridge is capable of often leads to bullet failures in traditional thin jacket target bullets due to high RPM.
I was leaning heavily to core locked ammo for deer and hogs. Then I heard Ron Spomer talk about copper bullets for hunting, then Ryan, and a couple other videos I've watched. Well, I was sold on copper hunting rounds.
17:50 its a simple calculation Bullet RPM = MV X 720/Twist Rate (in inches) So at 1050 MV x720/3 inch you have 252k RPM which is around that of a regular 308 or similar round. If you push it to their suggested supersonic speeds for the 200 grain offerings are around 2000 FPS which is 2000x720/3 = 480k RPM but you give up the quietness and its still a far cry from other rounds in actual energy numbers like the .338 federal is another ~7/800 fps on top with the 200 grain projectiles.
I run a 16inch with 190gr Fracturing ammo from Gorilla. MV is avg 2182fps. I love the fracturing projectiles with this twist rate. More wound channels, more blood loss at a faster rate.
There is a guy experimenting with the sig bi metal casings with 8.6 blk super saying he’s getting some bullets out to 1000 with a 12 inch barrel. Personally if trying to shoot far with supers probably go to a 1:5 twist to help with spin drift but idk
Today WAS a great day Mark. The only thing that would top it would be a sneak peak to the upcoming Cartridge Talk on the venerable .358 your audience is clamoring for ! jmp
My cousin shoots the fix in 8.6blk through their suppressor in think it’s the pork chop and has killed a bunch of whitetail and axis deer and 1 nilgai with all subsonic. Also I have the regular Alaskan 360 and I love it. It’s 12oz and suppresses 270win very well
8.6 Blackout is a really neat cartridge. One of the essential design features is that it works well in a 9” barrel, at least with subsonic loads. I finally got a Fix chambered in it when I heard inside scoop that SAAMI approval was in the works. But then Q screwed up and Hornady torpedoed the SAAMI application. So not SAAMI, no printed reloading data except some 4-year old crap that only shows AA-1680 powder. Thank goodness I didn’t pay close to retail for the rifle. 338 ARC is 100% Hornady marketing. Subsonic it works but super sonic performance isn’t up to 8.6 Blackout. Plus you need a special magazine, dedicated bolt, and possibly an upper with different feed ramp cuts. I think Ryan hit the nail on the head about Hornady not having an existing bullet that worked in the 1:3 twist. As an aside, the Fix with a Proof Research 20” barrel is startlingly accurate. Most precise rifle I own. Sadly, Q doesn’t maintain inventory even for the few accessories shown on their website.
@ Kevin - the “inside scoop” was that SAAMI approval was in the works. I don’t *know* why the application was tabled by the SAAMI Board in January 2024, but the rumor mill keeps pointing to a disagreement about the twist rate. Hornady doesn’t make bullets that work with the 1:3 twist, therefore the rumors are that Hornady wanted a 1:5 twist specified. If you and Q can get SAAMI approval for the 1:3 twist rate FANTASTIC. However, if the choice was 1:5 twist rate or no SAAMI approval, I think that was a mistake. Especially now that Hornady is pushing that annoying 338 ARC junk hard. There already is published load data for 338 ARC and more barrels, etc. available. To the best of my knowledge, Q has never explained the failure to get SAAMI approval for 8.6 Blackout. The only published load data is 4 or 5 years old with AA 1680 powder and a couple of bullets. That leaves your customers hanging … Think about it.
@@chipsterb4946just buy factory ammo from the many reputable companies producing it. Winchester, Federal, Hornady, Nosler, Berger, Remington have all jumped on the… oh wait
@@kevinbrittingham6774 the courtesy of a meaningful reply is requested. I like this cartridge and really want 8.6 Blackout to succeed. I bought your rifle (and complimented it above). I’ve paid for high dollar accessories when they were available. I represent the market segment who actually can afford your products and is interested in some of them. Help me out here. Convince me that Q is serious about supporting this cartridge.
@@chipsterb4946 everything you stated is false. You don’t have “the scoop”, pls stop spreading rumors and misinformation. SAAMI DOES NOT regulate twist. They only verify pressures, if following the drawing, are safe. That’s it. All Hornady bullets in .338 have been tested and can confirm that they do not blow up and work perfectly in 1:3 (except SST, bc it’s old and no one uses it). Even the Sub-X works great in 1:3. Hornady pulled it bc they wanted to do 338 ARC.
The Boombox is actually a mid-frame like the DPMS G2. If you want an affordable option the DPMS G2 works…I have one in 8.6 Blk rebarreled by Mos-Tek, I also have the Boombox which is an amazing gun. You can also rebarrel a POF Rogue and Ruger SFAR which are all small framed AR308 platforms.
Can we get a gel test comparison between the Hornady CX and Ryan’s beloved Barnes TTSX? Particularly a .308 caliber hunting cartridge such as .30-06, .308, or your beloved 300WSM.
The 8.6blk was brought to fruition to fill a request from curtain military units. Not just to make a new round. The 338arc on the other hand is being produced just to make another round. Both will find their market, where people will be bandwagoners for their choice. Currently i hunt with 556, 12inch 6.5 grendel, 16 inch 308, and 7 inch 300blk. Ive taken deer and boar with all. 8.6 and 6.5 creed in an short barrel are going to be may next builds.
So if your hunting or trying to clear a whole group of wild hogs, having a quieter sub sonic supressed AR is beneficial, right? They wont run when the first shot goes off if its super quiet.
Its not that they dont run, its that the initial impact is the noise they run from. So, you hit the furthest hog from you first, and they generally run away from the smack towards your position.
Its a shame none if you have shot it. Also the boombox is akin to an SFAR or DPMS G2 or pof rogue in that its a snall frame battke rifle type, much much more svelte than an sr25. Its also about 5 lbs.
The point of the twist rate is to achieve the RPM to stabilize a long bullet, WITHOUT the appropriate velocity(Ex: keeping it subsonic) So, assuming a max subsonic velocity of 1075 FPS, with a 1:3 twist, the RPM is 258,000, NOT 500,000 RPM. The MAX obtainable RPM in a 1:3 might be 500,000 RPM, but that is not a subsonic round. A subsonic 1:2 twist at 1075 FPS would be 387,000 RPM, and a 1:1 twist would be 774,000 RPM. To get a 1:3 up to 500,000 RPM, the bullet must go 2083 FPS. (720 X MV) / Twist = RPM, 720 X 1075 = 774,000, 774,000/3 = 258,000, (RPM X Twist) / 720 = MV, 500,000 X 3 = 1,500,000, 1,500,000 / 720 = 2083
Less RPM is needed the slower you go, since the aerodynamic pressure on the bullet is also way lower. Transonic bullets may need a slightly higher twist due to the center of pressure being very far forward at those speeds, but 1:3 is way, way, way beyond what is necessary for stabilization. 1:8 is all that's necessary, even for extra long .338s at transonic velocities. The 1:3 twist is so absurdly high that it keeps the bullet nose high and doesn't let it track with the arcing trajectory, resulting in a lower real world ballistic coefficient and very high spin drift.
8.6 Blackout isn't going anywhere. As an early adopter, there are thousands of us who have 8.6BLK and I truly think its for subsonic lovers. I plan to build/buy another in a boltgun. I will Not be getting a puny 338 Arc in a Ar15/bolt gun. Its nice but the 8.6BLK has much more juice and weight and spin. (I believe Hornady got tired of hearing about the 8.6 blk and wanted to make their own.) Ryan needs to realize that Faxon was the leader in barrel development for 8.6 Blk and they make Remage prefit barrels for off the shelf actions which can take any decent wood stock. (for traditional bolt wood gun guys like Ryan M.) Standard barrel lengths in both Bolt gun and Semis is 8",12", 16" and now they have a 18" but I'm not sure why. Cartridge talks should Never end!
Not to be a Debbie downer, but I feel like this cool boutique cartridge will be relegated to obscurity just as my beloved 458 SOCOM is. Unless, one wants to hand load. Idk just my thoughts on this. I always enjoy these podcasts. Thanks fellas!
this caliber has pushed bullet tech ahead so much, lots of cool developments out of this and its still not settled. wildcatters gonna wildcat, but I love it. haha
375 Raptor? Definitely turned out to be a lead balloon but love mine. 250g Gamekings, 270g Spear soft points and 400g Maker subs. Few boutique places to get ammo but very expensive. Experienced hand loaders game at this point but have mine worked out in a couple large frame ARs and no reason to do 8.6 I guess.
I wouldn't say lead balloon just yet. Its getting back on its feet a little. With suppressors becoming common, and subsonic hunting starting to grow; the Raptor may see more attention.
Would love to see Raptor get more popular. My 400g subs are run through a a Hybrid 46 and generally seem to be just as quiet as the 8.6 subs. End up with about 900ft/lbs from those as well.
I agree with Ryan! I would LOVE to see cartridge talks throughout the year! I love these videos
I want them as a weekly thing
Especially the long awaited episode on the .358win !!
358 norma @@Jeffreyperez-rp6ow
At least monthly for sure!@@MrJtin69
*Opens TH-cam and scrolls down to see a new Vortex 10 Minute Talk. Look to see the video length of over an hour.*
"Yeah that seems about right."
Also 2nd the 338 Arc ten minute talk next!
Can we get a podcast on the SAUM cartridges? Also 10 likes and Mark gets a suppressor and Jim gets a 300wsm
Can we get some more 10 minute talks on bullets? There are several like the Partition, SST, Gold Dot, ect, that deserve their own episode.
Yes!!!!! Have Scott and Ryan join in on the podcast as well!
No need, they're literally going to tell you to buy Barnes the whole time lol
Why, for example the gold dot performs ok in 9mm, but fails horribly in nearly all other cartridges.
More cartridge talks, please. I love learning more about mainstream, obscure, and obsolete stuff.
Soooo...pretty much everything.
@rappmasterdugg6825 yup. There's enough out there that they could probably do weekly ones for years to come.
AGREED !!
What about the .358 ?!
The sales pitch for 8.6 at least for me was:
A subsonic 342 grain bullet achieves full burn in a mere 8" barrel, and the ballistics allow an ethical harvest of deer at anything under 300yds. It makes for an incredible hunting rifle package for what 99.99% of hunting in north america really is. There's really no other hunting-capable sub round like it.
My other hunting rifle is 4' long unsuppressed, adding on a suppressor is just getting absurd. It's just a clunky thing to be carrying around in the woods or crawling thru brush and it's heavy for a long hike or even just shooting knelt/seated on ground...etc. Suppressed 8" 8.6 blk is shorter than a typical AR15, and the rifle weighs nothing. Easy to carry, fun to shoot in every way. I don't need any ear pro that I'm going to forget and I usually double up.
The only downside is you absolutely must carry a LRF or you're probably missing the 8.6 mortar round. You're probably carrying binos hunting anyway though, just have binos with LRF.
1. PSA puts out a 1 : 6.5 twist 224 Valkyrie. I got it and it’s great with heavy bullets but hornady black shredded.
2. Speaking of needing faster twist, the 25-06 is dying for faster twist for heavier bullets. I think even Ron spomer did a video with new black jack bullets on it.
So assuming the bullet stores roational energy like a flywheel, the 1:3 twist imparts 7 times more energy than a 1:8 twist. A .338" 210gr at 2300ft/s with a 1:3 twist has 155ft*lbs of rotational energy, where the 1:8 is only 22ft*lbs. Going to a 350gr at 1100ft/s drops the rotational energy to 57ft*lbs for the 1:3 and 8ft*lbs for the 1:8. So there is some merit in storing energy as rpm (angular velocity) in the bullet instead of just linear velocity.
58:17 Ryan is single handedly making me consider picking up some 130gr TTSX bullets for hunting whitetail
The TTSX and LRX are killer on deer. I've had better accuracy with the LRX out of my 6.5 PRC.
I use them in 308 and there great shot flat enough to 300 yards pretty good to 400 yards. I used the 110gr x bullets for years in 7.62x39 308 and 300 savage. As well as 53gr in 22-250 220 swift.
The old x 35gr and 40gr in 22 hornet and 222rem will do well with lung shots on deer. Did crop damage hunts for about 3 years with a buddy and his dad. Learned that a good hit with a 22 hornet is far better than and marginal hit with even a 375h&h. Witch I do hunt deer and bear with my 375h&h loaded with 235gr tsx at 2900 2950fps. Shot placement of and controlled expansion bullet is more important than how big or fast your cartridge is.
That's what I am going to use in .30-06, switching from nosler ballistic tips and hornaday interbond 150 gr. I just want to get away from lead as much as possible as far as feeding my family goes.
Do it! He’s the one who made me load my own this past year. I loaded them to 2970fps out of my 16” sig cross. Took the biggest buck on my lease this year when he was tending a doe, so I had to take a less than ideal shot in a rush. He was hard quartered towards me and was down a hill from me at about 80 yards. So I put the bullet fairly high and forward on the right shoulder. Full pass through and exited exactly where I wanted it, middle of the lungs just barely behind the left shoulder. Amazing performance for a 130 grain bullet doing roughly 2900fps at impact. He dropped immediately, struggled to his feet, stumbled 20 yards and dropped. In contrast, in the past I’d always hunted with my 270win that has roughly the same bullet weight and velocity with a Remington core lokt. It’s always done the job just fine, but that same shot with that placement and trajectory could’ve ended up less than ideal, either a lot of bloodshot and leadshot meat, or possibly a long tracking job with little blood
And elk
Don't forget the 375 Raptor. 308 Win necked up to 375 and the neck trimmed back enabling seating to mag length with common 375 bullets. Heavier subs available (400 grain) = more power. And supersonic loads are real thumpers 260 grain Accubond, 270 grain Speer SPBT! Runs perfect in the large frame AR with a simple barrel change
That's an interesting round, and have done some research on the 375 Raptor
I really wish the 375 raptor would catch on, I want to convert my sig cross to 375 raptor
@@user-ql9pd8ll8w there are 400 gr for 8.6 Blk. 375 raptor is cool, just not reliable in a gas gun due to bullet diameter and feed rib in 308 magazines.
I think you misspelled "it needs custom modified magazines and has a larger disparity in port pressure from subs to supers, its also a reloading cartridge queen, but otherwise it's a beast".
@@ravissary79 the bonus to it over the 8.6BLk is it appears to be just a necked up 308
Built one in a pistol configuration this past fall for MN deer season. Aero AR10 DPMS platform, 12” Faxon barrel and Silrncerco 46M suppressor. Tested out various factory loads from Gorilla and settled on the 210gr Barnes getting me out to 250 comfortably. Took my buck on a trot at about 60 yards and he went about thirty yards before tumbling. Was surprised to see no blood trail anywhere but total devastation inside the cavity. Entry was silver dollar size after going through a rib, heart was gone and lungs were melted away, and significant damage on the far wall but no pass through. The bullet dumped the horizontal and insane rotational energy so quickly and fractured to cause the damage it did inside. Planning to take it to TX with the 420gr loads for pigs next
I also enjoyed the 41 mag, that’s always been a favorite of mine
I agree, please bring back the 338 Federal!
I built an 8.6 on a rem 700 action. I shot a whitetail this year with it, at 80 yards in a run. I went through the right upper leg, through the lungs and blew out the left side taking out 3 sets of ribs. I used a 300 gr sub from gorilla. Ive got pictures if you all are curious.
I mean that’s great. But like… why? I just don’t understand why anyone would want to use something so big for deer
@davidhochstetler4068 that round may have been to much for the deer, but pig would be great. Also 4570 has been used for what 100 years as a deer rifle.
@@davidhochstetler4068if you're going subsonic, the only way you can increase energy on target is going bigger as velocity is capped
8.6 Blackout changed my life. We tested the 307 sub x in a 1:3 and a 1"5. it didnt blow up....
I put an 8.6blk together using a ZEV AR-10 upper and lower receiver and a 12.5" Faxon barrel. I just have to say I'm loving it.
You overlooked the Q 300blk guns are a 1in5 twist.
Also phantom defense has 300blk 88gr supers that are moving at around 2600fps as well as 200gr subs, both are hyper expanding bullets that cause severe damage to the gel block or living tissue.
I built one with a 16 inch Q and loaded with the 160 tsx and 2 hole my white tail doe at 150yards and antelope 210 yards they both ran less then 20 yards and awaiting my can to play with sub loads. So far loving it
“Lit for less money”…words to live by!😂
8.6 BLACKOUT!!!
All and all I'm thankful for the attention it's getting. All the new offerings for subsonic hunting has really got me thinking of making a load for my 338 Federal. Looking into the 382 grain for subsonic hunting but haven't found any data to start from. Is there any advice you would be willing to share?
Merry Christmas 12" 1:3 Q taper (its open source on there website) Run the 350 gr Maker Rex, or maybe by then we should have the 375 gr figured out possibly bigger ( for Hunting). And if you are wanting to hand load plink rounds the 300 gr Berger or Lapua Scenars are awesome. Great podcast
My favorite cartridge talked for 2024 was “the 300 WSM, Barnes 212 Bore rider projectile and Mack Brothers element action. I’d love to hear more on this very interesting project with all these three👍🏻👍🏻
Seconded
Definitely peaked my interest as well. I am considering the AR option for this. Would have to by a Magnum Frame AR and do a barrel swap
300 WSM is awesome
I bought a 338 federal ar10 barrel from Wilson combat before I realized they stopped making the cartridge. Ordered some 200gr Hornady ammo from hendershot and I honestly love it. Wish they'd bring it back. At least it was only a barrel, and it was on sale. It's not bad through a hybrid 46m either.
Rossi is listing a single shot rifle in 8.6blk. Wouldn’t have figured them to be the first mainstream manufacturer to make one.
Great overview! A couple points to mention, the 8.6 blackout while subsonic has too little powder in too large a case (inconsistent powder burn) and it COULD lead to subsonic loads being less accurate due to vertical spread, also, good callout on the spindrift from the 1:3!
This is regurgitate from Hornadys podcast, and Q has already rebuffed it . Look it up.
While spin drift is an issue at long range the 8.6 supers have already been taken out to 600 meters with a 9inch bullet with no accuracy issue. It's not a long relange target round, so hunting with it out past 600 isn't likely to happen.
i had the pleasure of being the rso for the Q booth for range day shotshow 2024. the first time i heard them shoot this thing from their fix with a suppressor it made me laugh. it totally sounded like a 40mm grenade launcher. then there was the delay when shooting steel at 200 yards thought the target was 500 yards because of the second long delay.
The Ice Cube reference in the beginning was the crossover I didn't know I needed
I just want a $350 cva scout in 8.6 blk
That is one awesome product CVA came up with for sure.
100 Percent agree
I have almost every one of the lead balloon you folks have talked about. They all work Great on game.6.8 spc,338 federal,8mm Rem mag,325 wsm this is just a few.
I agree with Jim here, Ruger American might just pick it up. Only thing that would change that is the fact that they can’t keep up manufacturing for all the traditional chamberings in the gen 2. Lots of traditional chamberings still not often available.
Taurus is ready to go on 8.6, Ruger american would be a hit too.
I really enjoyed this. We need more people talking about this cartridge. I have 3 of them. 1 built from a cross chassis and 2 gas 8 and 12.5 inch
Are you guys planing on doing a vid on the 6mm Max? I love to hear your thoughts on it vs 6 Arc.
Art Alphin did a lot of work with twist rates in the 70s and 80s and early 90s most of his big board cartridges carried a one and 10 twist which of the most big bore were between one and 12 and one and 16
I am running a 16inch barrel 8.6 for dedicated supers. Currently running Gorilla 190gr Fracturing ammo. Have a 12 inch on the way for a dedicated sub gun.
338 arc vs 8.6 blackout- I doubt one will edge out the other in this case. We still have 300 win mag and 300 weatherby mag. 🤷♂️
Thank you for referencing the 358 Winchester thank you still waiting for that show and thank you for responding on the last video
Remington built 7600s in 35 whelen, my boss had one,they're constantly on broker for sale. They even had a hal blood limited edition with a ton of engraving.
I love those 7600 pumps. That 35 Whelen is the true original "buck hammer" lol
If everybody only knew the true potential of the 338 Federal.
Like 338 Federal with the Sig Fury BiMetal brass for 80K PSI loads?
.338 federal and .35 wheelen are my favorite deer rounds for hunting in the eastern piney woods, where shots are usually under 150yds.
Love my 338 federal
I love mine
Yeah it really is surprising how obscure the 338 federal is
First of all Jim there’s six of us 😂 And yes Ryan, you are the reason I now load Barnes TTSX in most of my hunting rifles. You are officially an influencer.
Are Sierra Matchkings and Berger Hybrids not cup and core bullets? Because I shoot those in my 1:3 twist 8.6BLK rifle and they don’t blow up.
sub yes, supers get sketchy
Yup
I really dig the cartridge talks. Keep them coming, please. Get some more of the hornady guys in there too. I enjoy their show also but think the dynamics are better on this show
Bought a m70 featherweight in 25WSSM in 2004. What a great rifle. Downsized the rifle came in at 6 lbs. With a 22 inch barrel. It also shoots the 120 grain bullets into the same hole. .3 is what mine averages.
All accuracy nuts have always spoken how a short action rifle are more accurate than long actions. This was designed to even be stiffer.
Winchester has to step up and put ammo out every few years. They are asking for a class action lawsuit for hyping these cartridges and then leaving every customer,winchester fans, holding a rifle you can't get ammo for. All they did was hurt the gun industry. Won't ever buy a newly developed cartridge fearing that it's acceptable to just quit the caliber when your ideas fail. Have never bought another winchester since this ammo debacle. I would think these are the rarest featherweight you can find. A true wichester collector should probably buy a couple.
Wichester didn't give these cartridges a fair chance. They came out as us repeating arms was dying and browning picked winchester up.
What is the fallout,I'll never buy a newly designed cartridge again. We already have every caliber in cartridges that are in stock. Light recoil,light weight and super stiff actions that were super accurate.
Wichester should try again. The howa mini action is selling. Hearing you hate on this cartridge while 300 blackout,22 arc and other Supershort calibers come around . They will fade also if people look at a case and just throw hate at little fat cartridges. He'll the 25WSSM had a one year run before winchester folded.
This is how winchester loses customers for life. Any 5mm remington out there.
The 1-3" twist was used to get the rpm up on mono or sold copper bullets in all barrel lengths to ensure reliable expansion. I.e. bullets from maker and some of the other boutique copper bullets. It was designed to overcome the issues of the 375 raptor. Like forming and then having to trim brass as well as not having to file the ribs on the inside of magazines to get it to feed right.
Yes and no, regarding the Raptor. To form 8.6BLK from 6.5CM brass, trimming and forming is needed just as with the Raptor.
You are correct that the 8.6BLK profile was designed to work with 308win profile systems. The only potential issue with the Raptor is the mag ribs, like you mention. I haven't heard of any other problems regarding case shape.
However, I have heard filing the ribs may not be needed. My Raptor is in a bolt gun; however, I do have some AR308 mags. The raptor rounds nose in very slightly, so I can see why some may not have issues. I would still recommend modding the mags. Its easy to do.
@ShadowAviator i have built both, if you do not file the ribs the mags swell and they will not lock in, when forming brass not all 308 cases can handle the neck stretching you can use 358 win to solve this problem but the brass is expensiveand not plentiful like the 308. As for 8.6 brass you can buy it new and formed with the proper head stamp. This might not be a big deal but it kind of is you are traveling and not everyone knows about case forming or wildcats. Lastly you can't buy commercially loaded raptor ammo and will likely never find it in 95% of the stores and you might find the 8.6 .... I love my wildcats but I've given most up when I could no longer find components.
@@tbrown91241 I guess I was refering to making the cases yourself, not currently available components. Sorry, I should have been clearer. I understand what you mean now.
375 Raptor stamped brass is being looked into. I have some myself.
The mags swelling makes sense. Thank you for that info. A least poly mags are easy to modify.
Regarding your case forming issues, how are you necking up?
I mainly use 358 starline brass which isnt too expensive, but I have tried starline 308, winchester brand 308, and remington and federal once-fired 308.
They have converted okay, but I expand in two steps using expander dies. 30-35 die, then a 33-38 die.
@ShadowAviator I was forming cases from 308 and 358, federal and gave me the most issue splitting the neck of almost every case. I have owned the 338 fed and 358 win as well, I run a 358 win and 180gr ttsx for my supers now and the 8.6 blackout for the subs. As for the mags you could get by with the lancers by running a round or two less than capacity otherwise the rounds would pop out of the top or jam up. Don't get me wrong I love the raptor and I believe it to be the better cartridge. Having the ability to switch powders with a given bullet weight and go from sub sonic to super sonic is huge, but with no following in the market it is a handholding only affair. And again if you run into a less than knowledgeable game warden or law enforcement officer it can turn into a pain.
@@tbrown91241 If you could get Raptor headstamped brass, would you go back to using it more?
I have a Rugged Alaskan 360 non Ti.
Its light as balls, fits everything 9mm and smaller caliber with no barrel restrictions. Run it on my precision rifles and have had zero precision issues.
Looks great, can run on your pistols, rifles or carbines.
The Ti is really not as expensive as he makes it out to be at all. I got mine with a free tax stamp.
Kevin from Q said the 1/3 twist was to stabilize the big bullet. Helping it open up was a nice side effect. So with Hornady making it with a 1/8 twist I would love to see a accuracy test between them before I buy one. Preferably at 150-200 yards.
1:8 won’t provide accuracy. And you will lose rotational velocity.
Are we talking cup and core bullet or solid copper ? target shooting or hunting ? with 8" 12" or 16" 1:3 you can expect 3/4 to 1 1/2 and with a good match bullet ( Berger ,Lapua , Maker ) with the hunting subs I'm seeing 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" ( with 350 Maker Rex) 338 ARC I haven't seen a chamber drawing on SAAMI website or shot it yet. Half the story hope it helps
@@JustCauseUSA Are those group sizes at 100y?
@@joebob4609 yes sir
Good chemistry, very knowledgeable. Good podcast to listen to.
DUCT TAPE THE WATER BOTTLE! 😂❤😂 Mark's suppressor! 10 likes!
Q has videos using the Hornady sub x bullets out of 8.6 blackout quite often. Or did have with no trouble
I run a 8.6 in my Sig Cross. It works extremely well for subsonic and supersonic hunting. Once they get the twist rate back down to a 1:7, it’ll be an excellent cartidge.
Why 1:7?
@ Hi KB! I’m working on a video on this and I’d be glad to show you. Just a few quick thoughts on this:
There are clear additional effects using the 1:3 in terms of terminal performance, especially at subsonic velocities using monolithic and cup and core bullets specially designed to open up especially with additional rotational kinetic energy.
With a 1:7 however, you can accommodate a larger range of .338 projectiles at both supersonic and subsonic velocities for general hunting and target purposes with a lower chance of lead core bullets exploding in the air and a lot less spin drift at longer distances.
If you offer a 1:3 as a hunting/brush twist, and 1:7 as a general purpose twist, you stand a very good chance at catching the guys still holding on to their .338 Federal.
I know that scarcity and exclusivity drives some desire, but 300BLK sales are pretty good right now and the 8.6 has potential to have similar success, starting with multiple twist rates, and eventually converging onto a single one in the future depending on where the market goes.
@@FlatlanderGear running the 1in3 and 1in7 lines of ammo may cause more issues then sticking with 1in3. If all shelf ammo is designed for 1in3 for 8.6 then there won't be any issue it the bullets ripping apart in the barrel or before impact.
@@pjshooter6 on a practical matter at the moment, I agree since there are a lot of 1:3 barrels out there. I’m really advocating in the future testing and development on 1:3 and 1:7 because the twist rate and therefore the greatly shortened range due to it, poses the risk of being another boutique subsonic wildcat cartridge like .45-70 whisper. If you can reach similar ranges or at least 90 to 95% of the effective range of 338 Federal, you will have easily cornered the 338 short action market.
Again, if the goal is to fulfill YOUR specific criteria among your group, no problems there; but if you want widespread adoption and therefore maximum sales and royalties/contracts, offer it in 2 twist rates, work with ammo manufacturers, and eventually work towards a rifling design or twist rate that fulfills all the desired effects and normal ballistics the average consumer expects. On top of it, 1:7 might make load development for multiple barrel lengths easier.
Here's a request for a cartridge talk on the 338-06.
This podcast over years introduced me to copper bullets.
I'm stilling waiting in the background for the cartridge talk about the almost forgotten quarter bore, one of my favorite rounds for deer hunting that has been brought up in passing a handful of times one this podcast. The all mighty 257 Roberts!
INB4 Kevin is raging in the comments
Lmao I can’t tell you how many times I’ve commented back and forth with him about how stupid his cartridges and company are
Saw this comment pop up under the video, and scoured the comments looking for it so i could thumbs up it. 😂😂😂
@@Swollenfishyid have a lot more similar dialogue from him it he hadnt blocked me for asking about 8.6 when it first was announced.
I’d never heard if it before and i asked what it was and what it was for and he acted like i kicked his dog and went crazy on me ranting and raving till he blocked me.
😂
@alexdrockhound9497 I’ve actually been able to get him to admit him and his company are not as great as he demanded everyone make them out to be lmao
Please make this a weekly episodic :) !!!!!
Mark mix tape when???? Ten likes and Mark releases an album.
Whats interesting on the twist rate talk is that Kevin called out hornady in a video saying that they designed a bullet specifically for the fast twist rate for the 8.6.
My speculation is that a conventional twist rate for the 338 arc is to make it more versatile with existing bullets instead of a very specific bullet or bullet type.
As always, I really enjoyed the cartridge talk.
With such as aggressive twist rate it makes me wonder if a progressive twist rate will become more common where a barrel starts and like a 1:20+ and increase over barrel length to final twist rate like 1:3 to reduce torque on the start of the rifling
More cartridge talks please 😁
I love the 350 Ledgen, just taking down deer like right there, just enough but not over kill. Under an inch at 100yds. Thanks for these podcasts, happy to have SO many choices.
Curious in how the barrel handles the heat generated from a 1:3 twist rate. How many rounds before the barrel needs colling down. Especially using supersonic rounds
24:57 Ryan nails why Hornady 338 ARC slow twist, Sub-X. All copper expanders will always out perform lead core bullets in subsonic applications.
So far I tested the 307 Sub-X in a 1:3t and 1:5t Q Fix. They held together.
@DMHal01 Yes but they have flown apart and f'd up suppressors. Also I don't care for SubX on deer sized game. I think solid copper expanders perform much better.
I am not a fan of any of the subx in 300 blk or 45-70. Not only is the 45-70 load not subsonic in a 20" cause it's going 1,190 it doesn't expand for shit at the recommended distance. I've shot 2 deer with it at 50 and 120 yards and it was just essentially a slow fmj.
@JNOSNOW Exactly 💯. I have seen it in ordinance gel, clear gel, and game. You get a caliber size hole, the lead dispersed throughout your meat shedding valuable weight, and your left with shank that weighs 50% less than what you started with.
18:22 Hornady recommends cup and core bullets be kept at 300,000 rpm or slower to avoid them blowing up. This is the challenge with 22 Creedmoor and heavy bullets: the twist rate required to stabilize them at speeds the cartridge is capable of often leads to bullet failures in traditional thin jacket target bullets due to high RPM.
I was leaning heavily to core locked ammo for deer and hogs. Then I heard Ron Spomer talk about copper bullets for hunting, then Ryan, and a couple other videos I've watched. Well, I was sold on copper hunting rounds.
Some barrels just don’t like them. Just a warning. I shoot dpx everything. Do you know how hard that is to get in 38 super and 30 carbine?
Bless you, Mark.
17:50 its a simple calculation Bullet RPM = MV X 720/Twist Rate (in inches)
So at 1050 MV x720/3 inch you have 252k RPM which is around that of a regular 308 or similar round.
If you push it to their suggested supersonic speeds for the 200 grain offerings are around 2000 FPS which is 2000x720/3 = 480k RPM but you give up the quietness and its still a far cry from other rounds in actual energy numbers like the .338 federal is another ~7/800 fps on top with the 200 grain projectiles.
I run a 16inch with 190gr Fracturing ammo from Gorilla. MV is avg 2182fps. I love the fracturing projectiles with this twist rate. More wound channels, more blood loss at a faster rate.
Great video, have you guys considered the Hydrid 46/46m or Omega 36m those three cans should be awesome, I've shot 338lapua through all three.
Just get the 6arc! I've had nothing but great experiences with it. Deer, hogs, and coyotes no problem.
6arc suppressed? Subsonic for noise control? Nope and nope. Your 6arc is in a completely different lane
There is a guy experimenting with the sig bi metal casings with 8.6 blk super saying he’s getting some bullets out to 1000 with a 12 inch barrel. Personally if trying to shoot far with supers probably go to a 1:5 twist to help with spin drift but idk
3:08 Heh heh. Mr Mike from garand thumb 😏
Dear Mark, Printing to PDF and then using Adobe to parse what you "print" will save trees.
More cartridge talks!! Team Ryan!
Love this series! thanks gentlemen
Today WAS a great day Mark. The only thing that would top it would be a sneak peak to the upcoming Cartridge Talk on the venerable .358 your audience is clamoring for !
jmp
My cousin shoots the fix in 8.6blk through their suppressor in think it’s the pork chop and has killed a bunch of whitetail and axis deer and 1 nilgai with all subsonic. Also I have the regular Alaskan 360 and I love it. It’s 12oz and suppresses 270win very well
At 1000 fps, you are looking at approximately 240,000 RPM's at the muzzle.
8.6 Blackout is a really neat cartridge. One of the essential design features is that it works well in a 9” barrel, at least with subsonic loads. I finally got a Fix chambered in it when I heard inside scoop that SAAMI approval was in the works. But then Q screwed up and Hornady torpedoed the SAAMI application. So not SAAMI, no printed reloading data except some 4-year old crap that only shows AA-1680 powder. Thank goodness I didn’t pay close to retail for the rifle.
338 ARC is 100% Hornady marketing. Subsonic it works but super sonic performance isn’t up to 8.6 Blackout. Plus you need a special magazine, dedicated bolt, and possibly an upper with different feed ramp cuts. I think Ryan hit the nail on the head about Hornady not having an existing bullet that worked in the 1:3 twist.
As an aside, the Fix with a Proof Research 20” barrel is startlingly accurate. Most precise rifle I own. Sadly, Q doesn’t maintain inventory even for the few accessories shown on their website.
How’d we screw up? What’s your “inside scoop”?
@ Kevin - the “inside scoop” was that SAAMI approval was in the works. I don’t *know* why the application was tabled by the SAAMI Board in January 2024, but the rumor mill keeps pointing to a disagreement about the twist rate. Hornady doesn’t make bullets that work with the 1:3 twist, therefore the rumors are that Hornady wanted a 1:5 twist specified.
If you and Q can get SAAMI approval for the 1:3 twist rate FANTASTIC. However, if the choice was 1:5 twist rate or no SAAMI approval, I think that was a mistake. Especially now that Hornady is pushing that annoying 338 ARC junk hard. There already is published load data for 338 ARC and more barrels, etc. available.
To the best of my knowledge, Q has never explained the failure to get SAAMI approval for 8.6 Blackout. The only published load data is 4 or 5 years old with AA 1680 powder and a couple of bullets. That leaves your customers hanging … Think about it.
@@chipsterb4946just buy factory ammo from the many reputable companies producing it. Winchester, Federal, Hornady, Nosler, Berger, Remington have all jumped on the… oh wait
@@kevinbrittingham6774 the courtesy of a meaningful reply is requested.
I like this cartridge and really want 8.6 Blackout to succeed. I bought your rifle (and complimented it above). I’ve paid for high dollar accessories when they were available. I represent the market segment who actually can afford your products and is interested in some of them. Help me out here. Convince me that Q is serious about supporting this cartridge.
@@chipsterb4946 everything you stated is false. You don’t have “the scoop”, pls stop spreading rumors and misinformation.
SAAMI DOES NOT regulate twist. They only verify pressures, if following the drawing, are safe. That’s it.
All Hornady bullets in .338 have been tested and can confirm that they do not blow up and work perfectly in 1:3 (except SST, bc it’s old and no one uses it). Even the Sub-X works great in 1:3.
Hornady pulled it bc they wanted to do 338 ARC.
I am hoping you guys do a 257 Weatherby talk. Thanks for these videos. Great stuff.
Noooo.....don't let it end! Love the cartridge talks!
The Boombox is actually a mid-frame like the DPMS G2. If you want an affordable option the DPMS G2 works…I have one in 8.6 Blk rebarreled by Mos-Tek, I also have the Boombox which is an amazing gun. You can also rebarrel a POF Rogue and Ruger SFAR which are all small framed AR308 platforms.
Keep it up boys. Even though I don’t own many I enjoy all the talks!!!
Can we get a gel test comparison between the Hornady CX and Ryan’s beloved Barnes TTSX? Particularly a .308 caliber hunting cartridge such as .30-06, .308, or your beloved 300WSM.
The 8.6blk was brought to fruition to fill a request from curtain military units. Not just to make a new round. The 338arc on the other hand is being produced just to make another round.
Both will find their market, where people will be bandwagoners for their choice.
Currently i hunt with 556, 12inch 6.5 grendel, 16 inch 308, and 7 inch 300blk. Ive taken deer and boar with all. 8.6 and 6.5 creed in an short barrel are going to be may next builds.
Yes!!! Bring the 338 Federal back love mine.
338 Fed Ryan need more info maybe a reloading vid. 338 Fed in a 16 or 18inch barrel. Happy New Years Guys.
Bless You Mark!,
For what ever reason I live cart talks w ya ll more so than hornady. And I whatch all of both
If it were actually a 10 Minute Talk, it'd be worth watching.
Anyone else think the 8.6BLK is going to be on a "Lead Balloon" episode next year?
Not a chance
Absolutely, it has a long ways to go to become a common cartridge
So if your hunting or trying to clear a whole group of wild hogs, having a quieter sub sonic supressed AR is beneficial, right? They wont run when the first shot goes off if its super quiet.
Its not that they dont run, its that the initial impact is the noise they run from. So, you hit the furthest hog from you first, and they generally run away from the smack towards your position.
Its a shame none if you have shot it.
Also the boombox is akin to an SFAR or DPMS G2 or pof rogue in that its a snall frame battke rifle type, much much more svelte than an sr25. Its also about 5 lbs.
338 ARC for the win.
The point of the twist rate is to achieve the RPM to stabilize a long bullet, WITHOUT the appropriate velocity(Ex: keeping it subsonic) So, assuming a max subsonic velocity of 1075 FPS, with a 1:3 twist, the RPM is 258,000, NOT 500,000 RPM. The MAX obtainable RPM in a 1:3 might be 500,000 RPM, but that is not a subsonic round. A subsonic 1:2 twist at 1075 FPS would be 387,000 RPM, and a 1:1 twist would be 774,000 RPM. To get a 1:3 up to 500,000 RPM, the bullet must go 2083 FPS.
(720 X MV) / Twist = RPM,
720 X 1075 = 774,000,
774,000/3 = 258,000,
(RPM X Twist) / 720 = MV,
500,000 X 3 = 1,500,000,
1,500,000 / 720 = 2083
I thought it was also to help in expansion of certain bullets at sub sonice speeds?
@@Steve-ev6vx no, that's a side effect
@@joearledgeI think it was an unexpected result but is a big benefit.
Less RPM is needed the slower you go, since the aerodynamic pressure on the bullet is also way lower. Transonic bullets may need a slightly higher twist due to the center of pressure being very far forward at those speeds, but 1:3 is way, way, way beyond what is necessary for stabilization. 1:8 is all that's necessary, even for extra long .338s at transonic velocities. The 1:3 twist is so absurdly high that it keeps the bullet nose high and doesn't let it track with the arcing trajectory, resulting in a lower real world ballistic coefficient and very high spin drift.
@@chipsterb4946 correct, a happy side effect
Quality subject for a cartridge talk.
8.6 Blackout isn't going anywhere. As an early adopter, there are thousands of us who have 8.6BLK and I truly think its for subsonic lovers. I plan to build/buy another in a boltgun. I will Not be getting a puny 338 Arc in a Ar15/bolt gun. Its nice but the 8.6BLK has much more juice and weight and spin. (I believe Hornady got tired of hearing about the 8.6 blk and wanted to make their own.) Ryan needs to realize that Faxon was the leader in barrel development for 8.6 Blk and they make Remage prefit barrels for off the shelf actions which can take any decent wood stock. (for traditional bolt wood gun guys like Ryan M.) Standard barrel lengths in both Bolt gun and Semis is 8",12", 16" and now they have a 18" but I'm not sure why. Cartridge talks should Never end!
1 in 3 twist would be a longer run on the bit per barrel possibly wearing out the tool faster making it slightly more expensive? Great video
It’s less about wearing out the tool, and more about it taking 3 times longer to make
Not to be a Debbie downer, but I feel like this cool boutique cartridge will be relegated to obscurity just as my beloved 458 SOCOM is. Unless, one wants to hand load. Idk just my thoughts on this. I always enjoy these podcasts. Thanks fellas!
this caliber has pushed bullet tech ahead so much, lots of cool developments out of this and its still not settled. wildcatters gonna wildcat, but I love it. haha
@EagleRun23 haha good points! 😁👍
@@EagleRun23that’s why there are so many reputable companies producing the round! Oh….
Up next on 10 minute talk another 8.6 cartidge the 340 weatherby magnum
Reloading weatherby talks about it a fair bit. Thing is a BEAST of a cartridge
@@AussieInCA11only bested by the.338-.378 weatherby
@AussieInCA11 He needs a cartridge like that. It'll take him the whole elk rut to climb the mountain.
@ZachHunts I'm not in any position to judge, it takes me a pretty good amount of time to get up a mountain too 😂
@AussieInCA11 I can't either. I'm in shape, just the wrong shape. But I'm pretty good on an incline under a load.
375 Raptor? Definitely turned out to be a lead balloon but love mine. 250g Gamekings, 270g Spear soft points and 400g Maker subs. Few boutique places to get ammo but very expensive. Experienced hand loaders game at this point but have mine worked out in a couple large frame ARs and no reason to do 8.6 I guess.
I wouldn't say lead balloon just yet. Its getting back on its feet a little. With suppressors becoming common, and subsonic hunting starting to grow; the Raptor may see more attention.
Would love to see Raptor get more popular. My 400g subs are run through a a Hybrid 46 and generally seem to be just as quiet as the 8.6 subs. End up with about 900ft/lbs from those as well.