Thanks Steven. Visited Fromelles last year doing a tour of the western front battlefields. My great grandfather and great uncle served with the AIF, but luckily for them not with the fifth Division at Fromelles. Great uncle Fred was a Gallipoli veteran. Both survived the war but Fred never fully recovered from being gassed and died relatively young in his sixties. Great grandfather Harry was awarded the Military Medal but was captured in front of the Hindenburg line in April 1917 when his outpost was surrounded in a German night attack and two of his mates killed before the other three ran out of ammunition and surrendered. From a very good description and maps in the Australian official history and google earth I was able to pretty accurately locate the position of his post, in front of a sunken road where the Germans got in behind him and his mates. Stood pretty much on the spot in what is now a potato field. He actually escaped the prison camp and got to the Baltic coast. After a few days he figured that was a far as he was going to get so walked back to the camp. Missing Third Ypres and the 1918 battles no doubt did his chances of surviving the war a lot of good.
Thank you for sharing this. My GF's brother was at Gallipoli, only 16 and wounded twice. But survived to old age. My GF was also gassed and died in his 50's as a result. It was a special generation.
The more of Steven's videos I watch of the first WW, the more I respect his effort. I have only recently discovered what unit my Great Grandfather was in, after searching for more than 35 years, and the more I learn of the individual struggles these men endured, the more respect I gain for them, and those, like Steven, who strive to bring them back to us in a documentary. Thank you Steven. Well done, as usual.
What a sobering thought, 7000 dead or wounded in what was only a diversionary action. A very well informed thoughtful narrative honoring the memories of those who served. Thank you for sharing your work.
Thank you for providing these wonderful videos Steven, particularly those from the air, as they give a great sense of proportion & perspective not achievable from ground level. As for the 1916 battle of Fromelles : It should be remembered that only one year before, the British had attacked the same German front line from the self same trenches at Fromelles on 9th May 1915 during the Battle of Aubers Ridge. Results were about the same as in June 1916 with 2nd Rifle Brigade reaching into and holding the German lines at Rouge Bancs before being driven back later in the day through a lack of follow up support.
Only discovered your site by accident yesterday and been going through what I can find. As I emigrated to Australia at age 2.5 I’ve been brought up more on the Australian WW1 History and the attack at Fromelles is entrenched in Australian Military History. It was when I saw the battlefield maps at the museum that I thought to ask the question. It is good to see someone who has an interest in this history showing those of us on the opposite side of the world these sites. Thank you.
A very well presented talk and delivered without the usual triumphalism that often is shown when Aussie battles are discussed. You have an English accent.
Thanks so much once again Steven, I've been very I tested in the Grands Guere for over 15 years now as a result of a motorcycle trip, every post you make reveals lots that I had no idea about, I'm very grateful for your work. My own great grandfather was at rage battle of Jutland but dies way before I was of age to be interested, how I wish I had been able to talk to him about it.
Thank you for watching. My own GF died 4 years before I was born, so no chance to talk to him. What I have done is reprint his battalion's war record to keep their deeds alive. Same with my fathers WW2 battery's war record.
Steven Upton My dad fought in the desert and Italy, after he died my wife and I went to see were he'd scribed his name in the coliseum when they liberated Rome, I only found out st his funeral that he been a member of the LRDG.
Most who served in units like the LRDG, and in more recent times, the SAS etc. do not talk about it. When you meet someone who claims to have been SAS, they are invariably liars.
Steven, I’ve only just discovered your postings - they’re great! Two small points though, if I may. 1. The Australian Memorial Park lies over the German FRONT line, in fact there was no discernible Second Line which caused some of the problems as the 2 Anzac battalions penetrated too deeply behind the front line looking for the second line, with their flanks “ up in the air”’, a tactical error quickly exploited by the Germans. The bunkers standing were shelters built into the rear wall of the breastworks and not MG posts as suggested. 2. VC Corner cemetery is unique in being the only CWGC cemetery without headstones. Many also claim it to be the only all-Australian cemetery on the Western Front, but since all 410 bodies weren’t identified I’m not sure how this claim can be justified. Keep up the good work! Be Na
Steven, further to my comments about VC Corner, checking the CWGC website which tells me that all 410 bodies were identified as Australians (I guess from those metal “Rising Sun” badges) but couldn’t be individually identified - so it IS the only all-Australian cemetery on the Western Front.
Steven Upton 270 Australian and British, of whom 155 have been identified. VC Corner retains its unique all-Australian content. We’ll be going there in July, just missing the anniversary. Cheers, Rod.
Steven, I know everyone has suggestions about what you should cover next, but is there any chance please of covering the BEF’s largely forgotten 1915 battles, i.e. 2nd Ypres, Neuve-Chapelle, Aubers Ridge, Festubert and Loos?
One battle that does interest me is Bellewaarde Ridge June 1915. I did some filming there last April, but not entirely happy with the quality. So in four weeks time I am going back. I am staying there for 4 days. Actually in a hotel almost on top of Hooge crater. I have visited all of the places you mention and 1915 is a year that interests me. The one problem with them is there is not a lot to see. Due to the high level of the water table there were no trenches. They built breastworks. Other than cemeteries and German concrete block houses there is not a lot there. However, it would give you an idea of the lie of the land.
Also on one of the Western Front Association lectures there’s a brief mention of “the 1915 Battle of the Brickstacks” which I can’t even find any reference to.
@@rodblievers620 I seem to recall that the "Brickstacks" were on the south bank of the La Bassee canal at Cuinchy. I do have trench maps of this sector it is of interest to you.
Another superb video Steve. I wish i had seen your videos before our trip!. We visited Pheasant Wood cemetery in 2019 because a soldier from our town was one of the soldiers identified in the mass grave. Without naming him, his epitaph reads "A farmer from Gilgandra who gave his all Never forgotten by his family".
Thank you for watching. I am not sure that I understand your question, so forgive me if I give you the wrong answer. The reason why there are memorials for British soldiers in Belgium is because so many were killed there during the First World War.
Why don’t Read about WW1 instead of watching selective videos. For your information Britain had 600,000 men killed in France and Belgium plus another 200,000 killed elsewhere. You are too Aussie orientated.
Is it possible for you to do one of these on the first battle of Ypres. My great grand father who was in the Royal Horse Artillery lost his life there and his body wasn’t found till 2018 by the family. I’d be interested to find out where his unit was stationed during the battle. Edit: Change of date from 2014 to 2018.
I will be at Ypres in early January 2020. I would need to know more about exactly where he was and when. Also if you know where he is buried. I will be filming the Bellewaarde ridge. There was an attack here by the British in June 1915.
Steven Thank you for your reply. This is what I have from my father. Alfred John James Hyland Regular in the Royal Horse Artillary. Driver F Battery Killed by sniper after dropping off the gun & limber and returning the horses to the rear while supporting the Grenadier Guards which was overrun by the Germans on 20 October 1914. Listed as missing on Menin Gate. When the Belgians were rehabilitating the land in 1954, they found a German battlefield cemetery. The German Government was asked if they wanted to move the bodies to a War Cemetery and 15 Grenadier Guards and 3 Royal Horse Artillery bodies were found in the battlefield grave amongst the German dead. His body was removed and reburied in the Zonnebeke Cemetery but not identified. This information was passed onto my father by a Belgian researcher when he visited there in 2018. My father visited the Cemetery and found that there are 3 Royal Horse Artillery Graves there, 1 identified as a corporal who died on 14 October 1914 but he has forgotten his name, alongside two unknown soldiers of the Royal Horse Artillery along with the 15 Grenadier Guards. Do you know if it is possible to still have his body identified and grave marked? Thank you for your interest.
Thankyou for this, as an Australian this will always be a field of horrific memory, together with the recent finds at Pheasant Wood. I’ve walked every inch of these fields over 6 trips, stood right on the sugarloaf strongpoint. Fromelles has some interesting bunkers too.
@@anthonyeaton5153 I was lucky enough to meet the legendary Lambis Englezos, and went to see the Pheasant Wood exhumations he had triggered. I was allowed past the Hessian screen because I was a professional anatomist. Both Australian and British remains were evident. They had largely been buried in "blue" (anaerobic) clay, so some of the preservation was pretty good. They were all removed to the new Fromelles cemetery. Prince Charles dedicated it. Very moving.
@@anthonyeaton5153 The one body not evident was that of the commanding Lt General, the incompetent Richard "The Butcher" Haking. He'd helped destroy the career of Sir John French, but it was only after he'd destroyed the Australian 5th Div. and the 61st Div. BEF that he was moved sideways. As it was the first Australian Western Front action, they'd bitten their tongues when they'd contemplated Haking's "plan". They grew more obstreperous thereafter.
haha, right where you started is where I parked and sent up my drone last year. I wasn't paying attention and sent it straight up into the power lines. I could see in the display that it flipped around a few times then I lost the feed. "Well, it was fun while it lasted!" I said to myself - then noticed it was hovering a few feet above the ground! It somehow regained control of itself. I landed it and powered it off, and the gimbal did it's self-test and it was working again.
Thank you for watching. It pays to do a quick look around for anything to crash into. My first flight with this drone (it is my 2nd) I flew it into a tree and had to climb up it to get it back.
So glad I found this. Good info on Fromelles is hard to find. My hubbies Grandfather and Great Uncle were both in the 5th Division. They were not related. Grandfather was badly wounded, Great Uncle was killed. They are still in the process of trying to identifying him as I type this, using hubbies DNA, he's the last male of his Great Uncles family line. Grandfathers son married Great Uncles niece! Thank you for posting an awesome narrative of events.
You make really wonderful video's. Thanks so much. My son and I are also very much interested in WW1. We visited as much places as we can. Tip: as soon as this Covid-19 situation is lifted could you pay some attention to the forts of Liège, in particular Fort de Loncin? They give excellent opportunity for drone shots. Liège was the true opening salvo of the First World War. Many, many stories there. Liège was also where the Schlieffen plan started falling apart, they should have taken Liège in 3 to 4 days maximum, instead they lost 12 to 14 days. By that time the BEF and the French army were full in preparation mode and the German advantage was lost, ending of course in the first battle of the Marne and the subsequent trench warfare stalemate.
Beautifully described, Steven. Thank you so much. I know the nearby Rue Petillon Cemetery very well and a little about the much earlier diversionary attack on Rouge Bancs in 1916.
My grandfather hector alfred richards fought at fromelles. He was in the 56th battalion held in reserve, which is lucky otherwise i wouldnt exist. However when the germans counter attacked the australians were surrounded and had to attack back toward their own lines. The engineers were sent in the dig a trench between their lines and the surrounded Australians. When the engineers were dead, my grandfathers battalion went in to dig the trenches under machine gun fire from 3 sides. The last man out along the trench was a very famous fighter (forgot his name) when he neared the safety of the Australian front line he couldnt get along the trench because it was full of dead bodies, so he got out of the trench and was killed. My grandads section leader was capt smyth
@@StevenUpton14-18 A pity you didn´t like it. Btw I also really like the content you made on the yser front. My great grandfather fought there. I don´t think most Brits would put in the effort to cover the Belgian front but you did. I really appreciate it.
The battle of Fromelles was a disaster from the start. It was a way for Haig to welcome us "colonials" to the western front. This is what the Australian War Memorial has to say about it. "The worst 24 hours in Australian history occurred 90 years ago at Fromelles. Not the worst in Australian military history, the worst 24 hours in Australia's entire history. The Australians suffered 5,533 casualties in one night. The Australian toll at Fromelles was equivalent to the total Australian casualties in the Boer War, Korean War and Vietnam War put together. It was a staggering disaster. And this catastrophic attack at Fromelles - advocated and orchestrated by a British corps commander - had no redeeming tactical justification whatsoever. It was, in the words of a senior participant, Brigadier General H.E. "Pompey" Elliott, a "tactical abortion". One-third of the Australian casualties at Fromelles were in Elliott's 15th Brigade." Interestingly Adolf Hitler was in the opposing trenches and visited the area during WW2.
Ken, before you launch off on a “Lions led by donkeys” simplistic tirade, this DID have a redeeming tactical justification. It was supposed to stop the transferring of reserves to the Somme battle but failed to achieve this because an Australian officer’s body was found very early on carrying a complete set of orders indicating clearly to the Germans that this was merely a feint. This is despite this practice being expressly banned. Further, casualties were exacerbated by two battalion commanders going much further into German territory than planned - they were supposed only to go 100 yards to where photo reconnaissance (falsely) indicated the German second line lay and then allowing open flanks, an error quickly exploited by the enemy. There certainly were planning errors ( why was the Sugar Loaf on a brigade boundary for instance) but it’s a complex issue. There is a book about the planning, far too expensive for me, but the review indicates just how comprehensive the plan was..I’d also suggest reading “The Battle of Fromelles” by Roger Lee (Australian Army Campaign series) and Peter Barton’s “The lost legions of Fromelles” - the latter was written with reference to the still complete Bavarian Army records of this action - for a more balanced view.
@@rodblievers620 I believe Brigadier Elliot's description, that Fromelles was a tactical abortion, rather than politically correct history buffs who weren't there.
ALA And you were there? Interesting then that the Australian Army’s own commissioned work on Fromelles suggests that Elliott’s post war criticisms ( note that he said nothing at the time) don’t hold that much weight.
Very good presentation Steven, much appreciated. That number of soldiers killed at 5,000+ Aussies is really heartbreaking when one considers the total population of Australia at that time was just on 5 million. Not only that but the 5th. had gone to Fromelles after fighting for almost a year at Gallipoli where Aussies lost over 8,500 brave men. We would go on to lose a massive number of good men creating issues within the population for decades Same goes for other nations. It was interesting to hear your statement about identification of the fallen buried in mass graves. Several years ago we did a trip of the Somme Fields. As we went to park the minibus in a memorial car park part was closed down because the work to extend dug up some relics. The lady driver of our tour explained some of the process for identification as she also worked as a volunteer.
Another thought - inspired by this I’ve started re-reading the Peter Barton book; apparently Fromelles was also the scene of a 1914 Christmas truce. He doesn’t say they played football here though!
We both share the some passion for history, and served a long term soldiering on highly professional level, so we are naturally endet up with military history. While you chose the great war, to investigate in depth, I started with WW2. Again for the same reason as you chose the great war. Familie ties! My grandfather was heavily involved in WW2 on company up to divisionlevel , ended up as Divisioncommander . he told me about his expieriences thru my child and youthhood, and left many items attached with history behind. So I started to investigate WW2, besides those storys , at the age of 10. now , at the age of 60, there is a lot more variety of conflicts, wich drew my attention to study in detail. Namely 30 years war, US civil war, English civil war, napoleonic wars, war of the roses, you name it! :-) Now I am in the midst of WW1, and your channel came along as a godsent, because I am tracking one of my antsesters thru the great war on regimental level. He was a Sturmbattallionleader along the whole western front, as these troops were transferred to the those areas, where the Spearhead of Attack was planned and werent attached to a certain sector of the frontlines. So, in some of those places you shown me, so far I came thru your videos, my grandgrand-father actually fought, as close as I can connect his records with the landscape shown in your videos. Thats damned close. ;-) Thanks for your work, and see you soon.
Thank you for watching and sharing some of your family history. Incidentally, my father was a D-Day veteran and I had uncles who were evacuated from Dunkirk in 1940. My mother was German, so I am sure I had relatives on both sides in both wars. Nothing as impressive as a Divisional Commander though! I got to the dizzy hight of corporal in the RAF. But you know who else was a corporal - AH!
I just moved to Rue du Petillon. It is impressive to see what all those people did so that I can live my life peacefully. I did a walk today and found multiple shells and grenades.... 104 years later.... R.I.P. to all the fallen soldiers
I am from Armentieres just à few miles away. I uses to bicycling in this countryside. Fromelles is on a very low ridge maybe 10 to 15 meters high. The same that the brits tried to take at Auvers en 1915. The landscape is so flat you understand the Germans in Fromelles could see what happened on the british and aussies trenches and why it was so important to take the highground. My two pence.
Thank you for watching. In total its about 10,000,000 killed in WW1 and an estimated 50,000,000+ in WW2, of which most were civilians. Incomprehensible.
My great grandfather was killed there on the 19th. He was blown to pieces, has no known grave, but is on one of the panels at V.C. Corner. Panel 19, William Lee 3071.
Just found this video - Brilliant, BUT This is the second big attack over the same Battlefield ie The Battle of Aubers Ridge ( 9th May 1915 )of which you do not mention, This battle was covered up due to the Munitions scandal (lack of Shells with over 60% being defective) with a lot more British and Indian soldiers lost, There is a memorial to the 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade ( who lost over 2 Thirds of its strength in this battle), at there objective which was the bend in the road behind the German Lines, other Battalion including the Irish Rifles, The London Brigade and 4 or five other Brigades lost just as many Soldiers, this Battle was a Northern pincer movement. as at the same time there was southern Attack exactly at same time with possibly even worse casualties, It is a pity this Battle is not mentioned in History, or your video
Thank you for watching. I did not mention Aubers Ridge it this film because it focused on the Australian attack that took place in front of Fromelles. Aubers Ridge is a couple of miles south of here. I do intend filming Aubers Ridge one day.
There was a documentary on TV a while ago about this and they featured a man by the name of Green who buried here. They traced his history from England to Australia including some of his family members and girl friend.
I visited Fromelles today with my motorcycle. VC corner cemetery and memorial, fromelle memorial park, and especially fromelle (pheasant wood) military cemetery are very impressive to visit.
I can recommend 2 books "fromelles " by fitzsimons and the rare "the gallant company" which is written about my grandfathers company in the 56th includes fromelles. the company was lead by capt Smyth after the original capt was killed
My grandmother Emma always said that one of her brothers had sailed out to live and work in Australia, and came back with the Aussies to fight in WW1, I have to wonder if he was one of these men (I believe he survived the war) I must continue to research him!
My Great Great Grandad, Private Harold Bates, (Royal 2/7 Warwickshire Regiment was killed in this battle and his body was never found. It's most likely, thanks to my father's investigations, that he is in an unmarked grave, at Cabaret Rouge. RIP Harold.
That is possible, however, it's also possible that his remains are still on the battlefield. A great many soldiers were killed in or near saps that ran from the British line into no-man's land. Bodies in the open were put into the saps and covered up, and, too deep to be disturbed by ploughing, are presumably still there.
Excellent video. For anyone who wants to know more about this battle, they should read 'The Lost Legions of Fromelles' by Peter Barton. An outstanding book, which also looks in depth at the German side of the battle and has some remarkable extracts from German records. Good maps as well. Recommended.
It simply staggers the imagination at how pathetically bad the Allied leadership was and how gullible those young men were to march right off the line to their deaths. Your articles on these WW I sites are really well done and more than a little noteworthy.
Steven Upton forgive my jump to that conclusion. Like soldiers of any historical period, or nation, they were doing were doing their duty. I cannot fathom the courage and fortitude it would take to follow orders that faced such grim odds.
Here we go again, yes there were errors by the Generals at Fromelles but remember the Aussie troops were by and large green troops and were not as good as you think. The battle plan was discovered so that puts some blame back to the Australians. By the way the British had 1,500 casualties at Fromelles, nobody even mentions the British.
@@anthonyeaton5153 Green???. many of them had spent best part of a year fighting the Turks at Gallipoli prior to being relocated to WF. They, and brave New Zealanders had been gun fodder there also.
Read the comments. People should realize that in war events rarely go as planned and tragedy frequently ensues. I myself am familiar with the dangers that test pilots face.
That is the greatest weakness of anecdotal history. No matter what went wrong in a battle in WW1 it was the Germans who were the biggest problem. People are too quick to blame someone else.
War, what is good for? absolutely nothing but it is our history and it very important to never forget and try to never repeat. It's hard not to think of all the good men that died in that war that could have made a difference in the world. Many great distinguished intellectuals I'm sure of it ...what could have been and what should have never been. it's just sad virgins with rifles weren't they really it's just wasn't right what happened to that generation. After the war in most towns, there was like 1 male to every 20 females that's what I've heard more than once. Living in Europe between 1914-18 they must have thought the world was ending.
Cyril Leslie Dix No 919, 32nd Battalion, 8th Brigade, 5th Division AIF. Colour Patch: white and yellow. West Australian from Perth. First Action in Europe. Survived the War.
I keep hearing that horrible " Daaaa Daaaa!" Audio Combat Clip in that 80's Series Anzacs. That ruined the show for me lol. As well as the Prime Minister clips.
Just another British grand plan that went horribly wrong and wasted lives. Orchestrated by butcher Haig and co. The sugar loaf was the responsibility of the British attack, which they found too difficult. The Aussies did learn from this, to never trust the British on their flanks, they preferred Canadians. However the same mistakes were made many times again until mid 1918 when the Aussies and Canadians showed the British how to advance without ridiculous losses.
ALA what an incredibly simplistic view this is. The fact that the rather green Anzacs lost a pair of 3” mortars a few days earlier by disobeying orders and one officer, despite orders directly forbidding this practice, carried a complete set of orders indicating that this was merely a feint isn’t worthy of criticism? Further, 2 AIF battalions advanced much further than orders specified, and left their individual flanks open resulted in them never even holding on to the front line. There certainly were errors ( e.g. having the Sugar Loaf on a Brigade boundary) but the Australians weren’t perfect either. I find your last sentence incomprehensible; keep in mind that all British battalions were significantly under strength ( thanks to Lloyd-George’s tampering - the Canadians and Anzacs were much closer to establishment.
@@rodblievers620 Ah, now you are showing your real slant on things. Another born again historian using petty instances to spin an agenda. Too simple for you? There is a good reason for that. Stick with animation, that is your forte and keep basic facts blurred so that history is rewritten for the next generation.
ALA All I’m trying to say, without resorting to insults, is the issue here is far more complex than you advocate.So what’s actually wrong with being a “ born again historian” pray tell? I’ve read everything I can on Fromelles and I’ve been there; have you? And I don’t even understand your line about sticking to animation. I’m also very of Elliott’s writings - a known difficult subordinate, yet apparently never spoke up at the time, possibly a very good Brigade commander but bitter about never being promoted again in WW1; isn’t it possible his post- war writings were just a bit biased? I’m sorry I don’t understand your line about how to advance without ridiculous losses - are you aware that the causality rate in the last 100 days was much the same, regardless of whether the unit was British, Australian or Canadian? The huge advantage the latter two countries had is that they had 13 battalion Divisions at near full strength, the Brits had 10 battalions and these were woefully under strength (due to DLG’s meddling)). I’m not a Brit btw, a proud Australian but not blind to our own failings.
A study of these events in detail and without national bias and emotion will show that none of those involved were perfect, many mistakes were made. Diversionary attacks to pin the German reserves away from the Somme was a sound strategic decision. Sadly it went badly for those involved.
Steven Upton very well said! That’s what I’ve been trying to say (perhaps poorly); the issues are complex, there were mistakes at all levels obviously, the cost was horrendous but you’re doing all of those who served a huge disservice by trying to apply simplistic and/ or jingoistic logic.
Thanks Steven. Visited Fromelles last year doing a tour of the western front battlefields. My great grandfather and great uncle served with the AIF, but luckily for them not with the fifth Division at Fromelles. Great uncle Fred was a Gallipoli veteran. Both survived the war but Fred never fully recovered from being gassed and died relatively young in his sixties. Great grandfather Harry was awarded the Military Medal but was captured in front of the Hindenburg line in April 1917 when his outpost was surrounded in a German night attack and two of his mates killed before the other three ran out of ammunition and surrendered.
From a very good description and maps in the Australian official history and google earth I was able to pretty accurately locate the position of his post, in front of a sunken road where the Germans got in behind him and his mates. Stood pretty much on the spot in what is now a potato field. He actually escaped the prison camp and got to the Baltic coast. After a few days he figured that was a far as he was going to get so walked back to the camp.
Missing Third Ypres and the 1918 battles no doubt did his chances of surviving the war a lot of good.
Thank you for sharing this. My GF's brother was at Gallipoli, only 16 and wounded twice. But survived to old age. My GF was also gassed and died in his 50's as a result.
It was a special generation.
The more of Steven's videos I watch of the first WW, the more I respect his effort. I have only recently discovered what unit my Great Grandfather was in, after searching for more than 35 years, and the more I learn of the individual struggles these men endured, the more respect I gain for them, and those, like Steven, who strive to bring them back to us in a documentary. Thank you Steven. Well done, as usual.
Thank you for watching and your encouraging remarks. The more I study this subject the more respect I gain for those that were there.
What a sobering thought, 7000 dead or wounded in what was only a diversionary action. A very well informed thoughtful narrative honoring the memories of those who served. Thank you for sharing your work.
Thank you for watching. We should never forget their sacrifice.
I keep coming back to this one. Unreal. Thanks Steven.
Thank you for watching.
Thank you for providing these wonderful videos Steven, particularly those from the air, as they give a great sense of proportion & perspective not achievable from ground level.
As for the 1916 battle of Fromelles :
It should be remembered that only one year before, the British had attacked the same German front line from the self same trenches at Fromelles on 9th May 1915 during the Battle of Aubers Ridge. Results were about the same as in June 1916 with 2nd Rifle Brigade reaching into and holding the German lines at Rouge Bancs before being driven back later in the day through a lack of follow up support.
Thank you for watching and the information.
Only discovered your site by accident yesterday and been going through what I can find. As I emigrated to Australia at age 2.5 I’ve been brought up more on the Australian WW1 History and the attack at Fromelles is entrenched in Australian Military History. It was when I saw the battlefield maps at the museum that I thought to ask the question. It is good to see someone who has an interest in this history showing those of us on the opposite side of the world these sites. Thank you.
Thank you for watching.
A very well presented talk and delivered without the usual triumphalism that often is shown when Aussie battles are discussed. You have an English accent.
Thank you for watching. My English accent is due to being British!
Steven, your presentations get better all the time, many thanks yet again.
Thank you for watching.
Thank you for posting another excellent video and for keeping history alive too!
Thank you for watching.
Living in NY, the chance to see this is wonderful. Thank you
Thank you for watching.
Thanks so much once again Steven, I've been very I tested in the Grands Guere for over 15 years now as a result of a motorcycle trip, every post you make reveals lots that I had no idea about, I'm very grateful for your work. My own great grandfather was at rage battle of Jutland but dies way before I was of age to be interested, how I wish I had been able to talk to him about it.
Thank you for watching. My own GF died 4 years before I was born, so no chance to talk to him. What I have done is reprint his battalion's war record to keep their deeds alive. Same with my fathers WW2 battery's war record.
Steven Upton My dad fought in the desert and Italy, after he died my wife and I went to see were he'd scribed his name in the coliseum when they liberated Rome, I only found out st his funeral that he been a member of the LRDG.
Most who served in units like the LRDG, and in more recent times, the SAS etc. do not talk about it. When you meet someone who claims to have been SAS, they are invariably liars.
I hope to lead a motorbike tour of the British Legion Riders in 2021 to many of the places I have filmed.
I’m really enjoying your presentations, thank you for this. New Zealand born Australian so this one really resonates with me, cheers.
Thank you for watching.
New Zealand born Australian Croiky mate! What a cross to bear! From a freeborn Pom.
Steven, I’ve only just discovered your postings - they’re great! Two small points though, if I may. 1. The Australian Memorial Park lies over the German FRONT line, in fact there was no discernible Second Line which caused some of the problems as the 2 Anzac battalions penetrated too deeply behind the front line looking for the second line, with their flanks “ up in the air”’, a tactical error quickly exploited by the Germans. The bunkers standing were shelters built into the rear wall of the breastworks and not MG posts as suggested. 2. VC Corner cemetery is unique in being the only CWGC cemetery without headstones. Many also claim it to be the only all-Australian cemetery on the Western Front, but since all 410 bodies weren’t identified I’m not sure how this claim can be justified. Keep up the good work!
Be
Na
Thank you for watching. And your corrections.
Steven, further to my comments about VC Corner, checking the CWGC website which tells me that all 410 bodies were identified as Australians (I guess from those metal “Rising Sun” badges) but couldn’t be individually identified - so it IS the only all-Australian cemetery on the Western Front.
@@rodblievers620 - Is the new cemetery at Fromelles only Australians?
Steven Upton 270 Australian and British, of whom 155 have been identified. VC Corner retains its unique all-Australian content. We’ll be going there in July, just missing the anniversary. Cheers, Rod.
@@rodblievers620 - Thank you.
Another superb presentation Steven, many thanks.
Thank you for watching.
Steven, I know everyone has suggestions about what you should cover next, but is there any chance please of covering the BEF’s largely forgotten 1915 battles, i.e. 2nd Ypres, Neuve-Chapelle, Aubers Ridge, Festubert and Loos?
One battle that does interest me is Bellewaarde Ridge June 1915. I did some filming there last April, but not entirely happy with the quality. So in four weeks time I am going back. I am staying there for 4 days. Actually in a hotel almost on top of Hooge crater.
I have visited all of the places you mention and 1915 is a year that interests me. The one problem with them is there is not a lot to see. Due to the high level of the water table there were no trenches. They built breastworks. Other than cemeteries and German concrete block houses there is not a lot there.
However, it would give you an idea of the lie of the land.
Also on one of the Western Front Association lectures there’s a brief mention of “the 1915 Battle of the Brickstacks” which I can’t even find any reference to.
@@rodblievers620 I seem to recall that the "Brickstacks" were on the south bank of the La Bassee canal at Cuinchy. I do have trench maps of this sector it is of interest to you.
Steven Upton Thanks but I have several books on Loos. Intend visiting this June in fact, along with Fromelles.
And yes, sorry, the brickstacks were where you said.
Great work! My son and I will make it to France to see all these sacred areas. Love the way you present all.
Thank you for watching.
Another superb video Steve. I wish i had seen your videos before our trip!. We visited Pheasant Wood cemetery in 2019 because a soldier from our town was one of the soldiers identified in the mass grave. Without naming him, his epitaph reads "A farmer from Gilgandra who gave his all Never forgotten by his family".
Thank you fro watching and sharing this story. We will remember them.
Thanks so much for this. Would you happen to know why the memorial for many British soldiers in in Belgium?
Thank you for watching. I am not sure that I understand your question, so forgive me if I give you the wrong answer.
The reason why there are memorials for British soldiers in Belgium is because so many were killed there during the First World War.
Why don’t Read about WW1 instead of watching selective videos. For your information Britain had 600,000 men killed in France and Belgium plus another 200,000 killed elsewhere. You are too Aussie orientated.
Fantastic video again Steven. This is another museum on my list to visit. Thank you
Thank you for watching. It’s well worth a visit.
Is it possible for you to do one of these on the first battle of Ypres. My great grand father who was in the Royal Horse Artillery lost his life there and his body wasn’t found till 2018 by the family. I’d be interested to find out where his unit was stationed during the battle.
Edit: Change of date from 2014 to 2018.
I will be at Ypres in early January 2020. I would need to know more about exactly where he was and when. Also if you know where he is buried.
I will be filming the Bellewaarde ridge. There was an attack here by the British in June 1915.
Steven
Thank you for your reply. This is what I have from my father.
Alfred John James Hyland
Regular in the Royal Horse Artillary.
Driver F Battery
Killed by sniper after dropping off the gun & limber and returning the horses to the rear while supporting the Grenadier Guards which was overrun by the Germans on 20 October 1914.
Listed as missing on Menin Gate.
When the Belgians were rehabilitating the land in 1954, they found a German battlefield cemetery. The German Government was asked if they wanted to move the bodies to a War Cemetery and 15 Grenadier Guards and 3 Royal Horse Artillery bodies were found in the battlefield grave amongst the German dead. His body was removed and reburied in the Zonnebeke Cemetery but not identified. This information was passed onto my father by a Belgian researcher when he visited there in 2018. My father visited the Cemetery and found that there are 3 Royal Horse Artillery Graves there, 1 identified as a corporal who died on 14 October 1914 but he has forgotten his name, alongside two unknown soldiers of the Royal Horse Artillery along with the 15 Grenadier Guards.
Do you know if it is possible to still have his body identified and grave marked?
Thank you for your interest.
Thankyou for this, as an Australian this will always be a field of horrific memory, together with the recent finds at Pheasant Wood. I’ve walked every inch of these fields over 6 trips, stood right on the sugarloaf strongpoint. Fromelles has some interesting bunkers too.
Thank you for watching.
Did you find any graves of the 1,500 British soldiers who were killed at Fromelles while you were there?
@@anthonyeaton5153 I was lucky enough to meet the legendary Lambis Englezos, and went to see the Pheasant Wood exhumations he had triggered. I was allowed past the Hessian screen because I was a professional anatomist. Both Australian and British remains were evident. They had largely been buried in "blue" (anaerobic) clay, so some of the preservation was pretty good. They were all removed to the new Fromelles cemetery. Prince Charles dedicated it. Very moving.
@@vnurcombe thank you Vic a very moving story. This might bring balance to a tragedy
@@anthonyeaton5153 The one body not evident was that of the commanding Lt General, the incompetent Richard "The Butcher" Haking. He'd helped destroy the career of Sir John French, but it was only after he'd destroyed the Australian 5th Div. and the 61st Div. BEF that he was moved sideways. As it was the first Australian Western Front action, they'd bitten their tongues when they'd contemplated Haking's "plan". They grew more obstreperous thereafter.
haha, right where you started is where I parked and sent up my drone last year. I wasn't paying attention and sent it straight up into the power lines. I could see in the display that it flipped around a few times then I lost the feed. "Well, it was fun while it lasted!" I said to myself - then noticed it was hovering a few feet above the ground! It somehow regained control of itself. I landed it and powered it off, and the gimbal did it's self-test and it was working again.
Thank you for watching. It pays to do a quick look around for anything to crash into. My first flight with this drone (it is my 2nd) I flew it into a tree and had to climb up it to get it back.
So glad I found this. Good info on Fromelles is hard to find. My hubbies Grandfather and Great Uncle were both in the 5th Division. They were not related. Grandfather was badly wounded, Great Uncle was killed. They are still in the process of trying to identifying him as I type this, using hubbies DNA, he's the last male of his Great Uncles family line. Grandfathers son married Great Uncles niece! Thank you for posting an awesome narrative of events.
@@dm607 Thank you for watching and sharing this information.
I continue to be impressed with your videos and knowledge of WWI. Thank you for sharing !! Excellent
Thank you for watching.
You make really wonderful video's. Thanks so much. My son and I are also very much interested in WW1. We visited as much places as we can.
Tip: as soon as this Covid-19 situation is lifted could you pay some attention to the forts of Liège, in particular Fort de Loncin? They give excellent opportunity for drone shots.
Liège was the true opening salvo of the First World War. Many, many stories there. Liège was also where the Schlieffen plan started falling apart, they should have taken Liège in 3 to 4 days maximum, instead they lost 12 to 14 days. By that time the BEF and the French army were full in preparation mode and the German advantage was lost, ending of course in the first battle of the Marne and the subsequent trench warfare stalemate.
Thank you for watching and your suggestion of filming the Liège forts. I will add it to my list (it's quite a long list).
Beautifully described, Steven. Thank you so much. I know the nearby Rue Petillon Cemetery very well and a little about the much earlier diversionary attack
on Rouge Bancs in 1916.
Thank you for watching.
Excellent. Thanks Steve, an amazing video.
Thank you for watching.
Thank you for sharing the history of the Australian stories in France. All I have previously known was about the Canadian battles and Verdun.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Thank You, Steven, Very much apprciated.
Thank you for watching.
Thanks to your work many more will remember them as well.
Thank you for watching.
very clear narration, thank you
Thank you for watching.
My grandfather hector alfred richards fought at fromelles. He was in the 56th battalion held in reserve, which is lucky otherwise i wouldnt exist. However when the germans counter attacked the australians were surrounded and had to attack back toward their own lines. The engineers were sent in the dig a trench between their lines and the surrounded Australians. When the engineers were dead, my grandfathers battalion went in to dig the trenches under machine gun fire from 3 sides. The last man out along the trench was a very famous fighter (forgot his name) when he neared the safety of the Australian front line he couldnt get along the trench because it was full of dead bodies, so he got out of the trench and was killed. My grandads section leader was capt smyth
Thank you for watching.
Steven have you ever been to the passchendaele museum in zonnebeke ? It´s well worth a visit.
Thank you for watching. I did visit that museum in 2020 in between lockdowns and was very disappointed.
@@StevenUpton14-18 A pity you didn´t like it. Btw I also really like the content you made on the yser front. My great grandfather fought there. I don´t think most Brits would put in the effort to cover the Belgian front but you did. I really appreciate it.
@@joaquinserrano9614 - The Belgian front is relatively small but well worth visiting if you know where to go.
The battle of Fromelles was a disaster from the start. It was a way for Haig to welcome us "colonials" to the western front. This is what the Australian War Memorial has to say about it.
"The worst 24 hours in Australian history occurred 90 years ago at Fromelles. Not the worst in Australian military history, the worst 24 hours in Australia's entire history. The Australians suffered 5,533 casualties in one night. The Australian toll at Fromelles was equivalent to the total Australian casualties in the Boer War, Korean War and Vietnam War put together. It was a staggering disaster. And this catastrophic attack at Fromelles - advocated and orchestrated by a British corps commander - had no redeeming tactical justification whatsoever.
It was, in the words of a senior participant, Brigadier General H.E. "Pompey" Elliott, a "tactical abortion". One-third of the Australian casualties at Fromelles were in Elliott's 15th Brigade."
Interestingly Adolf Hitler was in the opposing trenches and visited the area during WW2.
Thank you for watching.
We're still fighting that damn war
Ken, before you launch off on a “Lions led by donkeys” simplistic tirade, this DID have a redeeming tactical justification. It was supposed to stop the transferring of reserves to the Somme battle but failed to achieve this because an Australian officer’s body was found very early on carrying a complete set of orders indicating clearly to the Germans that this was merely a feint. This is despite this practice being expressly banned. Further, casualties were exacerbated by two battalion commanders going much further into German territory than planned - they were supposed only to go 100 yards to where photo reconnaissance (falsely) indicated the German second line lay and then allowing open flanks, an error quickly exploited by the enemy. There certainly were planning errors ( why was the Sugar Loaf on a brigade boundary for instance) but it’s a complex issue. There is a book about the planning, far too expensive for me, but the review indicates just how comprehensive the plan was..I’d also suggest reading “The Battle of Fromelles” by Roger Lee (Australian Army Campaign series) and Peter Barton’s “The lost legions of Fromelles” - the latter was written with reference to the still complete Bavarian Army records of this action - for a more balanced view.
@@rodblievers620 I believe Brigadier Elliot's description, that Fromelles was a tactical abortion, rather than politically correct history buffs who weren't there.
ALA And you were there? Interesting then that the Australian Army’s own commissioned work on Fromelles suggests that Elliott’s post war criticisms ( note that he said nothing at the time) don’t hold that much weight.
Very good presentation Steven, much appreciated. That number of soldiers killed at 5,000+ Aussies is really heartbreaking when one considers the total population of Australia at that time was just on 5 million. Not only that but the 5th. had gone to Fromelles after fighting for almost a year at Gallipoli where Aussies lost over 8,500 brave men. We would go on to lose a massive number of good men creating issues within the population for decades Same goes for other nations.
It was interesting to hear your statement about identification of the fallen buried in mass graves. Several years ago we did a trip of the Somme Fields. As we went to park the minibus in a memorial car park part was closed down because the work to extend dug up some relics. The lady driver of our tour explained some of the process for identification as she also worked as a volunteer.
Thank you for watching.
Frank B there were 5,000 Australian CASUALTIES at Fromelles not deaths. It’s a common error.
There were 5,000 casualties not 5,000 killed.
Another thought - inspired by this I’ve started re-reading the Peter Barton book; apparently Fromelles was also the scene of a 1914 Christmas truce. He doesn’t say they played football here though!
Thank you for watching. The 1914 Christmas truce was quite widespread. Higher command made sure it did not happen again.
@@StevenUpton14-18 Quite rightly too.
We both share the some passion for history, and served a long term soldiering on highly professional level, so we are naturally endet up with military history. While you chose the great war, to investigate in depth, I started with WW2. Again for the same reason as you chose the great war. Familie ties! My grandfather was heavily involved in WW2 on company up to divisionlevel , ended up as Divisioncommander . he told me about his expieriences thru my child and youthhood, and left many items attached with history behind. So I started to investigate WW2, besides those storys , at the age of 10. now , at the age of 60, there is a lot more variety of conflicts, wich drew my attention to study in detail. Namely 30 years war, US civil war, English civil war, napoleonic wars, war of the roses, you name it! :-) Now I am in the midst of WW1, and your channel came along as a godsent, because I am tracking one of my antsesters thru the great war on regimental level. He was a Sturmbattallionleader along the whole western front, as these troops were transferred to the those areas, where the Spearhead of Attack was planned and werent attached to a certain sector of the frontlines. So, in some of those places you shown me, so far I came thru your videos, my grandgrand-father actually fought, as close as I can connect his records with the landscape shown in your videos. Thats damned close. ;-) Thanks for your work, and see you soon.
Thank you for watching and sharing some of your family history. Incidentally, my father was a D-Day veteran and I had uncles who were evacuated from Dunkirk in 1940. My mother was German, so I am sure I had relatives on both sides in both wars. Nothing as impressive as a Divisional Commander though! I got to the dizzy hight of corporal in the RAF. But you know who else was a corporal - AH!
I just moved to Rue du Petillon. It is impressive to see what all those people did so that I can live my life peacefully. I did a walk today and found multiple shells and grenades.... 104 years later.... R.I.P. to all the fallen soldiers
Thank you for watching.
I am from Armentieres just à few miles away. I uses to bicycling in this countryside. Fromelles is on a very low ridge maybe 10 to 15 meters high. The same that the brits tried to take at Auvers en 1915. The landscape is so flat you understand the Germans in Fromelles could see what happened on the british and aussies trenches and why it was so important to take the highground.
My two pence.
Thank you for watching.
It is so hard to understand the number of lives lost in ww1 for what they believed in. Let's not forget any of them.
Thank you for watching. In total its about 10,000,000 killed in WW1 and an estimated 50,000,000+ in WW2, of which most were civilians. Incomprehensible.
My great grandfather was killed there on the 19th. He was blown to pieces, has no known grave, but is on one of the panels at V.C. Corner. Panel 19, William Lee 3071.
Sorry for your family’s loss. We will remember them.
Just found this video - Brilliant, BUT This is the second big attack over the same Battlefield ie The Battle of Aubers Ridge ( 9th May 1915 )of which you do not mention, This battle was covered up due to the Munitions scandal (lack of Shells with over 60% being defective) with a lot more British and Indian soldiers lost, There is a memorial to the 2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade ( who lost over 2 Thirds of its strength in this battle), at there objective which was the bend in the road behind the German Lines, other Battalion including the Irish Rifles, The London Brigade and 4 or five other Brigades lost just as many Soldiers, this Battle was a Northern pincer movement. as at the same time there was southern Attack exactly at same time with possibly even worse casualties, It is a pity this Battle is not mentioned in History, or your video
Thank you for watching. I did not mention Aubers Ridge it this film because it focused on the Australian attack that took place in front of Fromelles. Aubers Ridge is a couple of miles south of here. I do intend filming Aubers Ridge one day.
Lets We Forget.
Great video.
From Sydney Australia.
Thank you for watching. We will remember them.
There was a documentary on TV a while ago about this and they featured a man by the name of Green who buried here. They traced his history from England to Australia including some of his family members and girl friend.
Thank you for watching and sharing this information.
I visited Fromelles today with my motorcycle. VC corner cemetery and memorial, fromelle memorial park, and especially fromelle (pheasant wood) military cemetery are very impressive to visit.
Thank you for watching. In June 2023 I will be leading a week-long motorcycle tour to Verdun.
Excellent video.
Thank you for watching.
A good drone film would be The Woods. Mametz, Bernafay, Trones, Delville and High Wood.
Thank you for watching.
Yes it would because British soldiers were there also.
I can recommend 2 books "fromelles " by fitzsimons and the rare "the gallant company" which is written about my grandfathers company in the 56th includes fromelles. the company was lead by capt Smyth after the original capt was killed
Thank you for the book recommendations.
beautifully done . .. Thank you
Thank you for watching.
Wonderful tribute at the end of the video
Thank you for watching.
Great work! Best wishes from Germany!
Thank you for watching.
Brilliant.Thank you.
Thank you for watching.
My grandmother Emma always said that one of her brothers had sailed out to live and work in Australia, and came back with the Aussies to fight in WW1, I have to wonder if he was one of these men (I believe he survived the war) I must continue to research him!
DO IT i have been doigng the sanme cracy what you can find out
Thank you for watching.
My Great Great Grandad, Private Harold Bates, (Royal 2/7 Warwickshire Regiment was killed in this battle and his body was never found. It's most likely, thanks to my father's investigations, that he is in an unmarked grave, at Cabaret Rouge. RIP Harold.
Thank you for watching. My GF was in the 1/5 Warwicks. Then in 1919 transferred to 1/7 to go to India.
That is possible, however, it's also possible that his remains are still on the battlefield. A great many soldiers were killed in or near saps that ran from the British line into no-man's land. Bodies in the open were put into the saps and covered up, and, too deep to be disturbed by ploughing, are presumably still there.
Excellent video. For anyone who wants to know more about this battle, they should read 'The Lost Legions of Fromelles' by Peter Barton. An outstanding book, which also looks in depth at the German side of the battle and has some remarkable extracts from German records. Good maps as well. Recommended.
Thank you for watching.
Lovely. Interesting. Thank you.
Thank you for watching.
It simply staggers the imagination at how pathetically bad the Allied leadership was and how gullible those young men were to march right off the line to their deaths. Your articles on these WW I sites are really well done and more than a little noteworthy.
Thank you for watching. I think it is doing them a disservice to call them gullible. They were obeying orders.
Steven Upton forgive my jump to that conclusion. Like soldiers of any historical period, or nation, they were doing were doing their duty. I cannot fathom the courage and fortitude it would take to follow orders that faced such grim odds.
@@davidaylsworth8964 - No problem. We often forget they had little or no choice.
Here we go again, yes there were errors by the Generals at Fromelles but remember the Aussie troops were by and large green troops and were not as good as you think. The battle plan was discovered so that puts some blame back to the Australians. By the way the British had 1,500 casualties at Fromelles, nobody even mentions the British.
@@anthonyeaton5153 Green???. many of them had spent best part of a year fighting the Turks at Gallipoli prior to being relocated to WF. They, and brave New Zealanders had been gun fodder there also.
Read the comments. People should realize that in war events rarely go as planned and tragedy frequently ensues. I myself am familiar with the dangers that test pilots face.
Thank you for watching. Also your comment. We sometimes forget that the enemy also gets a say in what happens.
That is the greatest weakness of anecdotal history. No matter what went wrong in a battle in WW1 it was the Germans who were the biggest problem. People are too quick to blame someone else.
Great stuff man
Thank you for watching.
I was there for the 100th Centenary in 2016
Thank you for watching.
Proud to be Australian, my two great uncles (brothers) were killed in 1917 & 1918, so died that family name line.
Thank you for watching. I am sorry for your family's loss.
Those words they are repeated at RSL Returned and services league clubs here in Australia at 6PM every night .
Thank you for watching. We will remember them.
War, what is good for? absolutely nothing but it is our history and it very important to never forget and try to never repeat. It's hard not to think of all the good men that died in that war that could have made a difference in the world. Many great distinguished intellectuals I'm sure of it ...what could have been and what should have never been. it's just sad virgins with rifles weren't they really it's just wasn't right what happened to that generation. After the war in most towns, there was like 1 male to every 20 females that's what I've heard more than once. Living in Europe between 1914-18 they must have thought the world was ending.
Sorry steve great videos my friend thank you very much always looking forward to watching.
Thank you for watching.
Nice one brummy
Thank you for watching.
Cyril Leslie Dix No 919, 32nd Battalion, 8th Brigade, 5th Division AIF. Colour Patch: white and yellow. West Australian from Perth. First Action in Europe. Survived the War.
Thank you for watching and sharing this information.
fantastic
Thank you for watching.
I am an American. I am interested in German military history. It is all so sad.
Thank you for watching.
The greatest disaster in Australian military history.
Are there any traces of the Sugarloaf left today?
Thank you for watching. No trace at all. Using GPS and trench maps I can locate the exact place. Just a field.
@@StevenUpton14-18 shame. shell cartridges?
Very nice!
Thank you for watching.
I keep hearing that horrible " Daaaa Daaaa!" Audio Combat Clip in that 80's Series Anzacs. That ruined the show for me lol. As well as the Prime Minister clips.
Thank you for watching.
We will remember them.
Thank you for watching.
Thank you . ( 2024 / Oct / 26 )
@@ronaldwhite1730 - Thank you for watching.
lest we forget.
"We will remember them."
Just another British grand plan that went horribly wrong and wasted lives. Orchestrated by butcher Haig and co. The sugar loaf was the responsibility of the British attack, which they found too difficult. The Aussies did learn from this, to never trust the British on their flanks, they preferred Canadians. However the same mistakes were made many times again until mid 1918 when the Aussies and Canadians showed the British how to advance without ridiculous losses.
ALA what an incredibly simplistic view this is. The fact that the rather green Anzacs lost a pair of 3” mortars a few days earlier by disobeying orders and one officer, despite orders directly forbidding this practice, carried a complete set of orders indicating that this was merely a feint isn’t worthy of criticism? Further, 2 AIF battalions advanced much further than orders specified, and left their individual flanks open resulted in them never even holding on to the front line. There certainly were errors ( e.g. having the Sugar Loaf on a Brigade boundary) but the Australians weren’t perfect either. I find your last sentence incomprehensible; keep in mind that all British battalions were significantly under strength ( thanks to Lloyd-George’s tampering - the Canadians and Anzacs were much closer to establishment.
@@rodblievers620 Ah, now you are showing your real slant on things. Another born again historian using petty instances to spin an agenda. Too simple for you? There is a good reason for that. Stick with animation, that is your forte and keep basic facts blurred so that history is rewritten for the next generation.
ALA All I’m trying to say, without resorting to insults, is the issue here is far more complex than you advocate.So what’s actually wrong with being a “ born again historian” pray tell? I’ve read everything I can on Fromelles and I’ve been there; have you? And I don’t even understand your line about sticking to animation. I’m also very of Elliott’s writings - a known difficult subordinate, yet apparently never spoke up at the time, possibly a very good Brigade commander but bitter about never being promoted again in WW1; isn’t it possible his post- war writings were just a bit biased? I’m sorry I don’t understand your line about how to advance without ridiculous losses - are you aware that the causality rate in the last 100 days was much the same, regardless of whether the unit was British, Australian or Canadian? The huge advantage the latter two countries had is that they had 13 battalion Divisions at near full strength, the Brits had 10 battalions and these were woefully under strength (due to DLG’s meddling)). I’m not a Brit btw, a proud Australian but not blind to our own failings.
A study of these events in detail and without national bias and emotion will show that none of those involved were perfect, many mistakes were made. Diversionary attacks to pin the German reserves away from the Somme was a sound strategic decision. Sadly it went badly for those involved.
Steven Upton very well said! That’s what I’ve been trying to say (perhaps poorly); the issues are complex, there were mistakes at all levels obviously, the cost was horrendous but you’re doing all of those who served a huge disservice by trying to apply simplistic and/ or jingoistic logic.