Italian Forces and Industry in Early World War 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2024
- --Copyright--
Hearts of Iron IV Screenshots - Copyright © 2016 Paradox Interactive AB. www.paradoxplaza.com
--Description--
The Italian soldiers are often blamed for their performance in World War 2, but usually nobody takes a close look at the state of the Italian Armed Forces in World War 2. This video takes a look at the Italian Army, Navy, Air Force and Industry in 1939 and especially 1940.
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--Sources--
-English Books-
Germany and the Second World War: Volume III: The Mediterranean, South-east Europe, and North Africa, 1939-1941
Buchner, Alex: The German Infantry Handbook 1939-1945
-Deutsche Bücher-
Schreiber, Gerhard: in Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 3
Buchner, Alex: Das Handbuch der deutschen Infanterie 1939-1945; Gliederung - Uniformen, Bewaffnung - Ausrüstung, Einsätze
-Websites & Links-
en.wikipedia.o...
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--Credits & Special Thanks--
The Counter-Design is heavily inspired by Black ICE Mod for the game Hearts of Iron 3 by Paradox Interactive
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Ethan Meixsell - Demilitarized Zone (the Irony :D)
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They should have built more civilian factories.
Badpak this was actually my mistake in hoi4
before taking that ethiopa wait when enough pp is ready justify againts Yugoslavia then take ethiopa after declaring war to yugoslavia declare againts Greece after that made focus to take albania after that you have a small empire that Mussolini's ambitions
@@ogulcankrmzaltn4531 Italy needed a lot of coal to build steel to make most of war materials. Where was coal available in the Mediterranean basin? Greece (1 coal mine in Peloponnese, 2 coal mines in Macedonia) , Kosovo (huge reserves of Coal and various others but not mined) and Romania (many coal and iron mines). Italy had very little coal in Sardinia and very little iron in Aosta and Elba Island but a huge iron deposit in central Libya never mined! How do you thing Italy could built a lot of war industries? Hitler must have thinked to send a lot of coal by train to Italy since 1934 to help her to built that industry and from 1934 to 1939 iron was available in French Algeria and French Tunisia and since 1940 Libyan iron could have been available . In an other timeline may be?
@@jmt97400 They are not talking about the real war. They talk about a game, HOI4, in which the resource coal doesn't exist.
Maybe research lvl 3 construction thingy?
Italy was basically doing the HOI equivalent of deploying divisions at the 20% minimum to make their army look bigger!
@Reddsoldier or building 10 widths
Reminds me of the Russians and Chinese building armies out of nothing but underfunded and underequipt irregulars in Victoria 2 to boost their military ranking. Playing as France i once managed to get a near monopoly on silk and tea (as well as a population matching that of the UK and beating both Russia and the US) by launching a few invasions into China, they outnumbered me 10:1 but i mowed them down with fully equip infantry supported by a huge amount of artillery and engineers.
That's how HoI 2 basically did it. That version didn't directly simulate binary divisions, but every Italian division is 20% understrength in game terms, and if fully resupplied they'd be like any other division.
In hoi4 you can win just wich only infantry
You dont need tanks
@Vlad Melis You'll take more losses then with a 40 wide division the way the attacks work.
Evidently the quality of Italian armoured vehicles were so poor that once pierced by British ammunition, the tank metal melted, immediately. They were death traps. Anybody that says Italians were poor fighters have no idea what they are talking about. British historians have credited Italian WW2 soldiers as brave in almost all instances. And they fought fiercely when they could, when they couldn't there was the choice of execution on the spot, or surrender as a P.O.W. Yes, the British surrendered on a few instances too. And brave or not brave, a man fights when he can. When he can't there is the choice to be taken as P.O.W. There are laws in governance and protection of soldiers during battle.
Yep. The Italian soldier did the best he could with what little he had. Hell Rommel went so far as to take the water from Italian divisions for his own in North Africa. Which I can understand from Rommel's point view. German divisions were better equipped and capable of more. But that sort of action sure as shit builds distrust among your allies. That Italian divisions did perform well at times. Italy just wasn't ready for war.
Their tanks weren't poor, Italian tanks were more than a match for British and French tanks up until mid-1942, it was only after introduction of the Matilda, M3 Lee/Grant and M4 Sherman tanks that they became obsolete.
@@andrewleonard475 lol Matilda existed before Italy joined the war
Tennoheikabanzai Far East Coast crew disagrees.
@Chalk O'holic >< True.
Excellent video as always sir. My great-grandfather served in North Africa and he always had respect for the Italian soldiers he faced in the desert. He would say how impressed he was that they would continue to fight despite their lack of good kit (especially tanks and air cover). I think he would have liked this video, so I'll like it for him. Keep up the good work!
thank you! o7
A great book to read about the Italian Divisions in the Eastern Front is called Sacrifice on the Steppe by Hope Hamilton. Really gives you an insight to how badly the Italians were supplied and also how many Germans treated them.They and the Romanians were very often looked at as mere cannon fodder by German High Command.
A very good example of Italian Bravey on the Eastern Front was the Battle of Nikolayevka.
Remenber also the great influence of the race dottrine and the average italian and romanian dos not look like exactly Arian (not to bring japanese etnic group)
My Great Grandfather was one of these troops. He was captured in Russia but survived the war and emigrated to North America.
Jeez no wonder the Italians switched sides in 1943.
Very true Sam, the Italians, and Romanians troops performed well early in the invasion of the USSR, out fighting the Soviets when they, the Italians, and Romanians were adequately supplied and supported by airpower. Later after the Germans had over-reached in Russia, when supplies and reinforcements to the front became more difficult, the Germans favored their own formations over their allies' units, making a difficult situation for the Axis allies near impossible.
I have that book; damned if it didn't change my views on the Italian soldiers in World War 2. I also learned what assholes even "non-Nazi" German soldiers often were to their so-called allies.
"Mussolini had a tendency for premature...declarations."
;)
I take it that Mussolini would not be a good 'movie' star;)
Of war?
Kübelwagen Blitz: Mussolini and Marshal Graziani salvaged, perfected, promoted and executed Operation Winter Storm on the western end of the Gothic Line, resulting in the defeat of the US 92nd Buffalo Division in late December 1944, so the last defeat suffered by American forces in Europe during WW2 was inflicted by Mussolini and the Italian Monte Rosa Division.
And so did George W. Bush. Iraq? Mission accomplished..ha ha. The mission had barely started and the Americans were being killed by the dozens each day during the Iraq war..
The mission accomplished thing was for the ship (Which was being decommissioned) the speech was taking place on, of course everyone presumed it was to do with the war itself.
Regia Marina had started on a carrier conversion but never finished it. The Aquila was converted from the liner Giuseppe Miraglia. Would have been about 28,000 tons loaded, 772ft long and carried 52 aircraft. Aircraft depicted are usually Fiat G.50's or Macchi MC.200's.
Many WW2 Officers on both sides said the Italians fought very well WHEN LED BY CAPABLE OFFICERS AND NCO's. Duke Of Savoia in East Africa campaign to hold back Brits comes to mind. The Italian Folgore paratroopers who stayed and fought at El Alamein after Germans took their transport were praised for their skill and courage by the Commonwealth Officers who fought against them.
They were legendary at the Battle of Nikolayevka with the Italian officers leading the Germans as well. Sadly, it is all too common to generalize while seeking easy and simple answers today.
There were other than senior officers, no Brits in East Africa, the troops were Indian, Nigerian with some Rhodesian and South African. The Nigerians did an amazing advance of 1000 KM in 10 days.
i recall reading that at the end of the war, the Xa MAS was given the right to bear arms because the allies had so much respect for them (RSI Xa MAS led by Valerio Borghese IIRC)
Some notes: the Regio Esercito had heavy artillery, but it was assigned to the army level, not to the single divisions, probably because of the state of the industry.
The Regia Marina was indeed the best branch of the armed forces; it lacked air cover, and the decision to build a carrier, which was brought up several times, even during the Sudetenland Crisis (1938!) was taken too late. The radar issue is very similar. Already in 1937-38 there were some prototypes of radars, but the budget was very low, until Matapan; at that point the Gufo radar was produced, but in too small numbers, and too late.
For the Regia Aereonautica, there were some brilliant machines, like the P.108, the Re.2005, the G.55 or the M.C.205, but Italy lacked the industrial capability. There was even a jet prototype, the so-called C.C.2. Apparently, we were good at producing prototypes, but we sucked at standardized mass production. :D
Jacopo Mangini 4 years late (lol) but I just want to point out that Italian tank doctrine also seemed good, but one again, there were no good tanks to carry it out, due to lack of industry
It always amazes me how little tech assistance the Germans gave them. England and the USA had very strong tech transfers eg Merlin engines under license or code breaking.
Randy Mi No doubt, but there’s a world of difference between holding your ally in contempt and the free and open exchange of technology between the U.K. and the USA.
This was REALLY interesting. Can you do one on Romania?? It probably doesn't show up in Hearts of Iron, but it would be interesting to see for the history.
probably, I am not sure if I copied enough of the Fourth Ally book, if I am not mistaken the book series that I used mainly for this video only had very small parts about the other Axis members.
Oh. I'll look out for that book, sounds interesting.
I suggest a library, I think it listed at 160 $ or something... oh no just 90 $. Full info: (Source: Axworthy, Mark: Third Axis, Fourth Ally: Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941-1945)
+Military History Visualized Thanks!!
In hearts of iron 4 you can play as any nation in the world, so Romania is in it
so it was Italy, not the Italians. it's so hard to get good information on this subject. thank you for your contribution to my brain.
Both in reality.
When Germans stock control of some Italian high commands and equiped the Italian infantries, the Italians soldiers still fought poorly because they didn't have the fearless state of mind the Germans had, Italians were scared to go to the front, they took ages to attack, and surrendered easily when defending.
ahhahah laughable... nembo, decima mas, 29 SS, etc... all the italian divisions armed with german equipment after 1943 did exceptionally well, you are just pushing the usual old anti italian bias
Anthony J. Haha cry german italians were manlier than you drugged krauts
@@Nyx-kb7ze lmaooo no they weren't
Got to leave them room for excuses...
You forgot that Italian tanks, tactics, doctorine and units were all designed to fight warfare in mountainous terrain of Italy, not in desert plains of Africa. Italy actually had really good mountain infantry and alpini (basically elite mountain infantry), and had war been fought in Alps of Austria like in WW1, Italians would have done a lot better. Also don`t forget Bersaglieri. Rommel said "German soldier has impressed the world. Italian Bersaglieri has impressed German soldier".
In general, Italian special units performed well. Worst performers in Italian armed forces were officers and commanders, who believed too much training might be harmful. It sound stupid, but to be fair, those officers had a point: if you train your men very hard to fight according to proper model, and it turns out that way you are fighting does not work, it can do more harm than good. And when you look at light infantry units of all armies of all times, they performed better when not drilled too hard, and letting them fight more flexibly without set pattern. And light infantry should be ideal for mountains of Italy.
And worst of all, Italians were bad at rotating their soldiers. British would not keep their units in front lines for more than 12 days, even on quiet periods, and then they god 4 days of complete rest. Italians on other hand, had to stay in front lines for months without relief. Some units actually had been in front lines for more than 24 months. In comparison, American and British experts believed maximum limit of physical and psychological resistance in battle, after which soldiers become exhausted and inefficient, was 200 days.
Italian mountain army found itself in middle of plains of African desert, badly trained, supplies, equipped, lead, Italians actually performed somewhat better than you would expect. Italian soldiers were actually generally willing to suffer worse conditions than most other soldiers of the war, but of course, they could not do so forever.
Fact that Italians performed horribly actually means that Italians performed far better than they should have been able to.
You are right the average Italian soldier wasn’t prepared for the kind of war that the Second World War is , Mussolini should have anticipated the new kind of war and prepared his soldiers and equipment for it . Bad leadership by a narcissistic megalomaniac can kill nations
Maybe the alpini were not well used, but on every moutainous terrain Italy failed, in the mountain of Cyrenaica (Eastern Lybia), of Greece and Yugoslavia, as well as not being capable to cross the alps and to enter the French homeland until Germans arrived in Nice.
Italian did performed on the Russian Front, where they were supplied by Germans.
As said Machiavel, "an Italian is very brave, Italians as an army are not, everyone think he can command, and misleaded, they failed repetedly" he wrote that in the 15th century. Cheers
One wonders how someone interested in conquering the Mediterranean prepared itself to a war in the Alps.
Not to mention Mussolini had installed party hacks into leadership positions in his military as he placed a higher priority on loyalty than competence... the same mistake Stalin made in his purges and Hitler started making more and more as the tide began to turn against Germany. Leadership makes a big difference... a prime example being Zhukov's turnaround of the Red Army.
You actually read the history of North Africa, it is clear that the Italians did most of the fighting and winning on the Axis side. Also the Germans had worse field hygiene in the desert than the Italians or the British.
The fact that an Italian infantry division had only around 600 NCO's is a testament to their armies poor performance overall in the second world war. At the end of the day though; there are no poor soldiers, only poor officers. Keep up the quality work dude! o>
oh there are poor soldiers. italians were practically untrained in the war compared to german, french, british, and american forces.
*Regiments
And yet, Rommel once commented that when the Italian soldier was commanded by German officers, they held up and at times, exceeded what was expected of them. However, it's true that generally Italian officers were useless. A lot were commissioned based on political reliability and connections.
Marco Ceccherini
Indeed; here is a quote from him:
"The Italian command was, for the most part, not equal to the task of carrying on war in the desert, where the requirement was lightning decision followed by immediate action. The training of the Italian infantryman fell far short of the standard required by modern warfare. … Particularly harmful was the all pervading differentiation between officer and man. While the men had to make shift without field-kitchens, the officers, or many of them, refused adamantly to forgo their several course meals. Many officers, again, considered it unnecessary to put in an appearance during battle and thus set the men an example. All in all, therefore, it was small wonder that the Italian soldier, who incidentally was extraordinarily modest in his needs, developed a feeling of inferiority which accounted for his occasional failure and moments of crisis. There was no foreseeable hope of a change for the better in any of these matters, although many of the bigger men among the Italian officers were making sincere efforts in that direction. "
Well-put! This video is enlightening! I've always wondered why the Italians fared so poorly in WW2.
Italys warproduction also failed because Germany took most of the Axis valuable resources (such as Romanian oil) for their own consumption, and thus leaving little over for Italian consumption. One could say that Germany was a bit parasitical on Italian warproduction, rather than co-operating. More than 2 million italians worked as guest workers in German industry 1944-45. And when Italy gained some German resources, it was never gifts, but rather exchange under harsh terms from the Germans. Germany never gave italy any StuGs or so, because they prioritized their own needs first.
Italys warproduction was like you say a failure even from the start of the war, and lack of resources was their largest handicap. And not only that, Italian industry was non-existent in World War I, and Mussolini took the lesson and tried to build up an industry, but progress was slow and Italy was not really an industrialized country making ships, planes and automobiles, but instead it was a poor country with a textile industry.
Anyhow, the needs of war forced Italy to pool her resources into building her own industry as best as she could for the sake of victory. She lost the war, but she won the peace, because those investments made Italy come out of the war with a stronger industry than she had at the outbreak of the war. Many Italians had became trained into skilled industrial workers, and the loss of human lives in the war was light, especially in comparison with her losses in World War 1.
Most of the war damages was suffered in southern Italy, while most of the industry was in northern Italy, and Germany kept control over these areas and tried to expand warproduction there as best as they could.
Italy also didn't want World War II. The vast majority of Italians mistrusted, if not despised, Hitler. Going to war with America also meant a virtual Italian civil war, and many millions of Americans were of Italian descent and maintained close ties with the Old Country.
What this video do not account for is what happened in 1936: France and UK didn't wanted another competitor for their African colonization duopoly and forced the hand at the United Nations Assembly to impose severe sanction on Italy for the war in Ethiopia. The inability of Italy to stock strategic materials reserves before the war, severely crippled the Italian industry potential between 1936 and 1945, due to constant lack of steel, aluminium, rubber and oil. The Pre-War period is known in Italy as the "Autarchic Era", where every possible strategic resource had to be spared. This started an auto inflation effect, where Italy needed cash and tried to sell weapons and advanced equipment to other European nation (Sweden, Hungary) willing to pay for it, but at the same time was depriving itself of precious strategic resources to build what it needed for it's own.
The built of the 4 Littorio battleship was detrimental not because of the inability to actually build them, but because the (understandable) decision to bar any restriction of on the quality and quantity of the metal employed deprived many other weapon industries from providing what the army required.
The inability to sustain a modern industry due to strangling from international markets was one of the main reasons for the Italy to join the axis while between 1935 and 1938 tension and distrust between Italy and Germany run very high over future of Austria, having Italy agreed to grant independence of that nation. Hitler lured Mussolini into the axis (and then the war with France) promising to deliver much needed steel and other strategic metals from Germany, but never really attended to his promise for Germany started building under war economy after 1940 and gauged most of the Ruhr mining steel and whatever Sweden was able to deliver for itself.
no problem, the U.S will take care of that oil for them.
Germany offered license production of pnz 4 and 3 but Italians refused
How could you comment the fact Germans didn't try to use diesels for tanks and Italians- do?
I do understand the effective gas (petrol) from German brown coal for carburator engine is possible but diesel fuel is possible only from real Romanian oil- am I wrong ?
it's a great video and it perfectly reveals the key point of tragic Mussolini bet, bringing a totally unprepared country to war hoping war would have ended quickly and it would have stayed within Europe. Let me just amend the part I didn't actually liked, despite your reasoning at the end of the video I can't accept listening the word coward associated to Italian soldiers, the same soldiers sent into the Russian winter wearing cardboard boots, same soldiers who didn't step back in El Alamein overwhelmed by British artillery, with no water to drink, no ammunition, no fuel and no transportation. Regarding ww1 turning against the former allies, let me remind that alliance was a defensive pact, the moment war was initiated by Austrians and Germans, Italy was not bound to any alliance. The broken pact was rather the invasion of a neutral country, such as Belgium, by the Germans.
I read something in the comments below I do appreciated, a simple and great piece of truth: there is not such a thing as bad soldiers, there are only bad officers.
This is four years late, you do know that he was saying (paraphrased) "Italian soldiers have the label of coward attached to them" to refute it, right? He almost immediately said afterwards that Italian soldiers fought bravely and with courage and that it was the leadership, industry, and logistics that let them down.
The problem with Cape Matapan isn't only attributable to radar, but also with the high incompetence of that moronic "Admiral" called Iachino. He knew he had messed up so bad that he spent the rest of his life writing books as to how he couldn't have possibly known of the presence of British big ships, when in reality Italy had intercepted and decrypted those messages. Also, his decision to rescue Pola and leave basically a squadron of cruisers to be slaughtered is something that would have deserved court martial. Everything else I absolutely agree, unfortunately I have lost family members because of that war and recalling Italian leaderships just makes me scream in anger, just think of Mussolini's statement: "Give me 1000 deaths and I'll sit at the peace conference".
Sei uno stupido, non conosci neanche la storia............
If I were Mussolini, I would had Lachino Hanged. I wouldn’t care if he was a loyal officer anymore.
My great grandfather was a officer in the Italian Army. He somehow managed not to get sent to the Eastern front, many of his close friends died there. He then, because he was a officer, got captured by the Germans and forced to march towards the Alps in the North to some camp i think. But then on the way the Italian partisans attacked the German convoy and saved him and my grandfather who was under a year old.
I don't see how a baby could fight. If you meant my great grandfather, then he was not a coward. What's the point of dying in some shithole like Stalingrad thousands of kilometers away from home? Besides, he never got the order to go there.
Italy was a divided country, most of those who supported the fascist party were really just in to not be assassinated, Italy was not Germany, when mussolini couldn't use his iron fist anymore due to weakening from war and his own position almost everybody realized that that could be the chance to get rid of him, and them from one day to the next italy is divided in two faction fighting each other, what would you do if you were told to shoot on sight? when on the other side those you fight might actually be your friends and relatives?
Picenum "Fascists never killed anyone" in the silliest, most historically misinfiromed and biased affimation I ever heard, except if you consider that Giacomo Matteotti, a widely respected parliament member from the socialist party who had just spoken in defense of Italian democracy at the Camera (our lower Parliament chameber) coukd be considered a dangerous terrorist. And I will not discuss the Fascist "squadracce", who killed, beat, tortured, and maimed thousands of people gromthe 1920's a nd up to the 1940's, or about the Italian concentration camps in Croatia, Greece, Ethiopia, and Lybia.
@@alicetwain yeah Fascists even executed civilians in Yugoslavia
@Stalin Dota and you arean commie
The Germans choice in allies turned out to be poor.
The Italian army was not exactly the yellow of the egg and Japan did not only fail to engage Russia in the east, but instead declared war on the Americans.
America entering the war, Russia only having to fight on 1 front and the offensive and defensive weakness of the Italians were game changers.
the germans wanted britain as their ally but they had different ideologies. also those were the only allies available to them. (with other minor nations like romania, hungary, bulgaria) because those are the only countries who support their ideology.
There was no way Japan could have helped Germany anyway, that is clearly shown in the battle of Manchuria.
Yes they could, Russians would have had to place more troops to their eastern border meaning that Germans would have had less numbered enemy, probably would have made a critical difference causing the fall of Leningrad, Stalingrad and Moscow. Yes Japanese could not have WON the soviet onslaught but that is besides the point.
Kastor Hallavainio no, the Siberian army that was based in the Far East was enough to deal with Japan before, no reason to think otherwise in this case.
Is this a fact? because I remember the soviets moving troops from siberia to west due to german attack. japan joining the war with germany would seem to do the trick.
I have been an enlisted soldier and sailor, a petty officer and NCO, and finally an officer. I have been a tank commander and platoon sergeant. I have been a staff officer (tactical intelligence officer, chemical officer, assistant operations officer, and night battle captain), platoon leader, and company commander. In every respect the numbers you presented made me cringe! The one that bears the most emphasis for me was the lack of NCOs. They are the backbone. That means tactical flexibility goes out the window. NCOs train and maintain tactical combat power. They lead at the front edge of the battle. They ensure that soldiers are properly cared for and supplied in the forward areas. Without NCOs you have no ability to conduct operations. From a human perspective they are the father and mother of a group of 6 to 12 (a group of scared and rambunctious 17 and 18 year olds). They are taskmasters and teachers. NCOs form the head of little tribes, of teenagers, that exist to conduct the deadliest contest that man has yet to devise. Without an NCO to rally around and take care of them; it is not surprising the Italians has such a horrible reputation for poor morale. I can not imagine an effective fighting force that lacks NCOs, but I can imagine one that is very ineffective.
Thank you very much for covering Italian situation, history books never mention thing other than "the army was unprepared".
Also as I know it Mussolini entered the war so early in comparison to the readiness of italian forces because seeing the rapid defeat of the French trought that the victory was near and he needed some deaths to put on the negotiation table of the winners, quite the irony.
Thanks again for all the good work!
First view, first comment, first like, heh.
This is actually also the first time I see any analysis on the Italian armed forces during WW2, thanks.
also first time I use a screenshot from a game :)
I have to wait a bit till I can get HOI4, you should do a game where you just see the world in historical mode, not take part in it with any major faction, just look at it.
Excellent video. 50 years of reading military history has given me a good sense of the subject matter dealt with here and I think this is quite accurate. Great job.
thank you!
all soldiers r brothers ideed, i complitelly agree o last thig u said i video
@Military History Visualized I think you should have mentioned that Italy was under embargo since the Ethiopian war, it had a huge impact on our resources and was one of the reason that made us ally with Germany.
@pincopallino: from what I know, you are right, a valid and good point, didn't think about that while doing the video. Although, I need to revisit the embargo, never really read about it.
Military History Visualized I have heard you say the word "Nazi" before in your videos but not "Bolshevik"
I know your country likes to be politically correct on many things! I just don't understand why you must say the derogatory word or term "Nazi" instead of "National Socialist"
So what you're saying is Italy lost the war due to the Inferiority of their light machine guns compared to the Bren?
If we had some spandau history would have been different.
the Breda 30 was the worst lmg of the WW2
No because they couldn't shoot those weapons.
Dont forget the Chauchat
WW1 mg's? really?
Thank you for such a good report on the Italian forces in World War 2. They really were lacking in industry support. I wonder how Itly compared to Japan, which also had industry that was dwarfed by that of its opponents. Thank you for sticking up for Italian soldiers. I'm not Italian myself, but I can appreciate your fairness, anyway. Merry Christmas. :)
Watching this video, all I can think about is the incident where Regia Aeronautica bombed their own returning ships....
The Regia Aeronautica, just a grammatical pet issue...
But yeah... Italian military has been known to suck ever since Italy united...
To be fair, the british also made this mistake.
Except Porco Rosso.
FortuneZero Ayyyy!
Friendly fire incidents can occur with any military around the world simply because humans make mistakes.
Finally an objective summary on the Italian military capability in early World War 2. It's much appreciated that this come from Italy's former allay, being this documentary obviosuly from a German source (the accent a bit too strong...). Anyway, Italians were at disadvantage not only in terms of quality of their war equipments, they were also doomed by the superior allied intelligence, like ULTRA, and some case of treason among the high ranks (particularly in the navy). Italian intelligence though achieved some significant successes, like the stealing of the Black Code from the US Embassy in Rome before Perl Harbour. This allowed Rommel and the Axis forces in North Africa to win important battles and to reach El Alamen severly treatening the British in Middle East. Not last, Italians had superb special forces, especially the navy ones. They managed to raid and sink a significant amount of allied shipping inside their Mediterranean bases: Suda, Alexandria, Gibraltar, Algiers, etc. 32 Italian submarines took part in the battle of the Atlantic sinking 109 ships for over 590,000 tons, which in average is an efficiency ratio per submarine not far from the German counterparts. Many thanks for this analysis.
Thanks for that
These videos just get better and better. Keep it up!
thank you!
Thanks for this. My grandpa served in the Navy and was sunk twice by british Swordfish torpedo bombers. But my father often remembers his stories about those battles, and how much the sailors respected the often suicidal bravery of the british pilots.
+Tom J
There seems to have been a mutual respect between the British and Italians. My Italian grandad and British great grandad fought on different sides in the same battles in North Africa and got on fine after the war. My great grandfather was wounded in his crusader tank and would have died if Italians hadn't given him water. It seems the most amicable front, nothing like the Russians and Germans.
ARandomUsernameForMe Good to hear.
That's because they fought in such a hostile environment and had a common enemy - the desert. Also because many of the Italians didn't want to be there or even thought they should be fighting on the Allied side
Excellent video.I'm italian and it's always a bit annoying to me when people,both in Italy and outside talk about Italy's performance in the war without mentioning the criminally incompetent way in which the fascist party managed the industry,now this will be my go-to link to provide anyone so that I don't have to explain it myself...by the way don't take this the wrong way but your pronounciation of "transport vehicles" makes me happy inside haha!
I didn't know you watched this channel woodstock...
Kübelwagen Blitz This channel is the shit
Agreed, we all know that Hoi can't tell us everything about ww2.
***** Let's not forget FIAT(for non italians the biggest automotive industry in Italy,our "Ford" in a way)was basically jumpstarted with aid by the government.
suddenly everyone becomes a military history expert.
In the U.S., in the general public, there is no "the Romanians were bad troops" in WWII bias. However, my whole life Italian soldiering in WWII has been a matter of jest. Thanks for revealing the truth regarding their lack of military success like you did with the Romanian military. FYI, I just texted my eldest son to start watching your videos. :)
yeah, I think the Romanians is only the German and Austria thing, because, well we lost in Stalingrad. Thank you!
US general public would be like i though Rome was a long time ago. i did not know they fought in WW2.
The US and most western militaries little to no contact with Romanian forces during WW2.. So they never formed any strong opinions regarding the Romanian forces.. They did however have much contact with German and Italian forces.. And the difference in difficulty between fighting against the Germans and fighting against the Italians was huge.. The Italians where easy to defeat whilst the Germans where hard to defeat..
As pointed out in the Video the inferiority of the equipment status of Italian forces probably had a huge demoralizing effect on Italian troops when they where attacked by well equipped British forces in north Africa.. But as the video reveals this left a bad impression of the fighting ability of Italian forces in Western Armies..
Yeah because Italy was supposed to be a "Power" in the Axis the big 3.... Romania was a minor it was a satalight
one thing people forget is that the allies (us, uk, nz, india, free french, poland, south italy, etc) took 2 years to invade all of italy (germans + rsi).. poland fell a month, france fell in 1.5months.. yes, rsi did get better equipment by then, but the italian soldier was also fighting for their own land and fought bravely and on par with their allies.
And the Alies needed the help of the Mafia too! It's just sad the ignorant stereo type that Italy has.
I know this is about WW2 and not WW1, but still, I got a fun-fact from Argentina:
Luigi Cadorna, one of the most useless general in the italian, and worlwide, military, is so infamous for his stupidity that here in Argentina his name is synonimus of disaster. A typical argentinan quote would be like:
Two people have a car accident, and if one wonders how is he gonna afford the repairs, someone could say "que te lo page Cadorna" ("let Cadorna afford it").
Many other examples like this can be used, where Cadorna is used as an example of something going utterly wrong.
*****
Mind elaborate? Cause as far as I can tell your comment is just a bait.
In america, we call an utter disaster a fiasco.
yeah, leave him be, cadorna was a displaced out of his mind man who thought that you could win wars by charging the enemt in the trenches, he basically sent thousends to die meaninglessly
Well, not only him: most of the italian high command was as stupid as he was. Sadly italian high command was composed exclusively with people with powerfull families, rather than those with merit for the charge. This was a reality, to a certain degree, in all armies, but on the italians it was extreme, and ensured that almost no one with some real brains was able to actually get high in the italian army. Lets remember those same retards are the ones who supported Musollini into power, and if that isnt stupid enough, then they supported him into all his retarded campaigns over Europe. clearly the italin army was prepared for an offensive war in WW2 and yet they were in africa, trying to pull an imposible victory out of their sleeves.
ehy, I would have liked having you when I was in middle school, for summarizing thing to study, pretty mch spot on
I am a bit late for the video but I want to say it's very good, and precise (I'm italian).
I am by no means a historian but I have always been really fond of the world wars and something that I think you lacked to mention (and I don't think would be off-topic) but was nonetheless absolutely CRITICAL in the outcome of the war was the state of our intelligence and counter-intelligence. Reading Martin Gilbert's books about World War 2 it's absolutely striking how such an apparently insignificant tool of a nation's "shed of war" can change everything.
By decrypting basically all our (and german's, for that matter) secret communications it was a walk in the park for the smaller UK forces to intercept italian naval formations and convoys. And considering they knew exactly the ship types and numbers of any formation, they could prepare beforehand to strike the most efficiently they could. This proved absolutely decisive in the destruction of Rommel's forces (german and italian) in North Africa, especially in the later stages of the campaign in Tunisia, since they basically entirely cut off their ammo and fuel supply coming from Italy
And a small note, since I admit I was a bit hit in my pride (clearly, no hard feelings): it's quite hard to say we betrayed our former allies in World War 1, since Austria has always been our historical enemy number 1. Even when allies our frontiers were highly guarded and Count Franz Conrad von Hötzendorf, chief of austrian army staff, were pleading for a preemptive strike against Italy when we were still allies. It was a barrel of gunpowder about to explode, and everyone was aware of that. Hardly correct to call this a betrayal. But still! What's in the past shall remain in the past. Just pointing it out.
well, John Ferris a leading Military Intelligence Historian disagrees with the importance of Military Intelligence in WW2:
“Intelligence did little to cause Axis defeat, but much to shape how the Allies achieved victory.” (Ferris, John: Intelligence In: Cambridge History of the Second World War, Volume I: p. 637)
Although it gets overemphasized a lot, because I guess it is the combination of "we were smart" (winner) and "we have a scapegoat" (loser) mentalities, also cloak & dagger seems fascinating.
Very interesting. Because Martin Gilbert puts intelligence on the stage light as having been key to victory. After the allies got the Ultra key, all WW2 according to him (I'm obviously over simplifying) seems to have been: "Read how many troops/ships/aircrafts the enemy has, put together enough troops/ships/aircrafts to slaughter them and send them to the fight". In all fronts, but especially in the mediterranean.
I understand how it can be overemphasized, though. very easy to use it as a mean to justify victory and superiority even when outnumbered
from what I know from one of Ferris's students (Justin from the Navy Chat), Ferris was a student or just graduated around the time when Ultra was made public and then the overall tone was "we need to rewrite everything and everything will be different", well, now since the dust has settled the tone became way more sober. The thing with intelligence is, if you don't have a hammer, you can't hit anything. Even without ultra, the u-boats would be detected by radar and killed off by planes still quite easily.
I imagine how tough must be to have to rethink everything because of new discoveries. Very interesting to know these sides of history.
And I understand what you mean. The outcome of the war was inevitable. Independently from the state of enemy intelligence, it's impossible to move tanks and ships without fuel, or having an army without manpower. Germany was doomed from the start, even if the allies had never come out with Ultra. Still, even if it's speculation, it's cool to think how many details and battles would be different today with a, for example, heavily supplied North Africa. Something that in the reality of things was impossible to achieve.
Also, I wanted to say I discovered your channel yesterday and I'm glad for it. You seem really enthusiast and passionate and to know a lot of things. I can only wish there were more channels like this on TH-cam. Keep up!
thank you! I am still trying to convince a few people that I have high opinions of to do the same, so far with limited success.
Outstanding presentation, as always, well documented and focusing on the big picture which is easier for the non-scholars to follow. Your presentations are becoming also more detailed and more focused as you produce them which is useful to people that have more interest in details of WW II. Thank you for your extensive research and time producing these videos. I wish that my training at the War College would have been that well illustrated. Ciao, L (USA)
The mab 38 was decidedly superior to the English sten and to the German MP38.
what an awesome vídeo! so informátive, my grandfather served in the Alpini on the Yugoslav Front until the 43; after that his unit was taken prisoner to Germany until the 45 on a camp near Dresden, when they scaped until reaching american lines. keep up the good work!
The most important thing that try your best(i think so) pronounce those hard english words, that's why i love your videos(and chanel)
Keep making those good videos :)
they did not turn on their allies in ww1 ... they were not allies all the had was a mutual defense treaty ... which after germany and austria conducted a war of aggression was obsolete from the moment that war started ...
The video is missing one of the biggest deficit of the italian army, they couldn't produce shoes, the soldiers sent to help the germans during operation barbarossa had boots made with carboard and paper (and still the alpini divisions fought better than the germans during winter)
Oh, and a not so known fact: one of the thing the government did in order to make rifle rounds was to ask womens to give their wedding ring to the army so that they could be melted to make cartridges.
Alpini are heroes
refrigeraptor
Not true.
It's just a myth.
It was the case around 1913-14, but not from 1915 on.
refrigeraptor So mountain divisions from the Alps fought well during winter.
Is that supposed to be suprising?
refrigeraptor Gold is not used in cartridges...
I am fairly certain that is soviet propaganda.
At least we had the same lies spread by the Soviet puppet regime about our troops.
I live in the place where most italian planes were made, at the Officine meccaniche Reggiane industry.
I can totally tell just by looking at the dimensions of the plant (it's still here by the way) that it could totally not compete with a whole nation bulding planes and AFAIK there was no other plant in Italy like the Reggiane.
Nowadays the test airfield hosts concerts, it's called the RCF Arena.
But there's something I can tell by looking at the historic photos of the plant: those planes may have got small guns and small motors, but they were built with fascist care. The plant was clean and it looks well organised and I really hate to praise fascism as an italian, but they archieved a level of excellence in the matters of build quality and numbers for such a small plant. I can't help but feel pride that the RE.2000, probably the best italian fighter made in ww2, is called like that because it was made in Reggio Emilia where I was born and where I live. Even UK wanted it before the war, but ofc that could not happen.
If they could organise another plant like the Reggiane somewhere else in Italy they would have almost doubled the production of planes.
But afterall, it's a lot better that they did not.
Great video!! That explains partially Italys failed invasion of Greece. Can you make a video adout why the Italian invasion of Greece failed? I am asking because i have never seen a video that discusses this topic.
Basically it is as follows: Mussolini decided it was a very good idea to send underequepped and unprepared troops to fight on a mountainous region during winter. There you have it.
Hmm, your argument is invalid and a little bit racist.
I don't know about these alive burials but what I know for certain is that during the campaign in north africa there were a lot of episodes where italian soldiers, despite beeing overnumbered and underequipped they did hold of to the allied advance.
Also, you portray the germans as cold robots and this is actually not true in many cases expectially during the first part of the war.
Do you know what happened in Kefalonica after the italian armistice?
Well, they were fighting a war they didn't want. Can you blame them?
No of course you can't blame them,and personally me i don't blame them when they putted down their guns, greeks were together with italians together there were about no casualties,plus greek saved or tried to save italians when germans brutally burry them inside greek beaches alive to suffocate like mouses.Too bad you can't find this series of terrible war crime i mean the burrials of italians in internet.But i know it from people that were relatives from people that face,saw the events,and we talk about massive burrials not one-two soldiers,we talk like throwing piles of jew bodies in graves.Maybe it will be good to put some of that stuff in internet,i will find official writings of that stuff to upload about these.Cause greeks maybe are a bit more cold,but noone was treating people like shit like germans who were a cold killing machine and acting as one without personal consiousness. Personally i have a lot of italian friends because i like their personality even more than my fellow greeks,cause they are more talkative ,social,sensimental,and open hearted than greeks that are too but not so much.
this is just the classic hollywood propaganda, but if you have watched at least this video you are commenting and if you have read the comment above, you should have changed your idea. It's quite sad tough, thatis alway so hard for people to abandon thei prejudices even after so many data and facts explained. I still wonder why people always prefer to explain everything with racist assumptions.
In WW1 the italians turned against their allies?
Not correct... the pact was void, as the austrians declared war on Serbia without informing Italy before (there was an article in the triple alliance that stated this. But the austrians acted cocky and arrogant and paid their greatest price for that), then legally and completely betraying Italy. Italy was furious and had all the rights to attack Austria.
Rickusty yea right
True I find annoying that the betray myth keeps popping up here and there, when in fact was the reverse.
It was not Austria the engine of the war against Serbia. It was Hungary.
The Austrians accepted the Serbian response to the ultimatum but the Magyar part of the government was obsessed with the Serbians because of what we call now Voyvodina. They suspected (not without reason) Serbia was agitating there and they wanted to crush it. Furthermore the Bosnian question was a question that affected Croatians which were a part of the Hungarian crown.
This is what made Austria turning down the Serbian acceptance of the ultimatum and thus leading to war: the Hungarian part made very clear they risk losing them if their demands were not accepted.
@@zoompt-lm5xw Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait! Let me get this straight! So people believe that Italy betrayed Austria, but they believe that Austria betrayed them first by attacking Serbia. But Austria didn't want to attack Serbia, but Hungary made them decide basically between Italy and Serbia or losing Hungary. So the Germans blame the Italians for ditching the Triple Alliance, the Italians blame the Austrians and the Austrians blame the Hungarians! Why isn't this a movie? And speaking of which, who do the Hungarians blame? The Serbians? And who do the Serbians blame? The Habsburg's? And who do they blame? The Prussians? So who's fault is it? And does it really matter or is it all going to taper out to some lame as beginning from some vague border conflict in Roman times?
@@zhouwu don't forget the Russians agitating for their own territorial position
Excellent presentation. I take it that you may have seen ORBAT or Order of Battle(.com). Anyway, I wrote my senior thesis on German-Italian relations during this period. The fact of the matter is that Italy would not be prepared for war until 1943. The Pact of Steel was violated a few times and Hitler never convened a multilateral meeting with all Axis Powers involved. He preferred bilateral arrangements.
thank you! Nope, actually not, kinda odd, because I was searching for a lot of related stuff. I usually refer to niehorster.org
Just a minor pronunciation correction, the word "Regia" should be said more like the "Reg" in "Region".
Your videos and channel is awesome. Good job
It's the information that I like in the best format ever. I'm starving for your videos.
I'd say that the Italian armed forces probably gave a better account of themselves in WWI than in WWII, but that was in large part due to facing a main opponent in WWI (Austria-Hungary) which had already suffered huge losses and was seldom able to launch major offensives against the Italians for fear of being overrun by the Russians. The Italians fought well but had a supreme commander, Luigi Cadorna, who is the only rival to the deplorable Austro-Hungarian supreme commander, Conrad von Hötzendorf, for the title of worst supreme commander of WWI. The poor Italian showing in WWII compared to WWI can, I think, be put down to two main factors. Firstly, Italy was quickly put on the defensive in all its campaigns. Secondly, technological changes in warfare worked disproportionately against Italy due to its weak industrial base. Thus, the average Italian soldier, who had been fairly equally equipped when compared to his opponents in WWI, was at a severe disadvantage in WWII. No one can expect infantry to fight on against armour and air attacks if they lack proper AT and AA equipment. If they also lack other essentials, such as food or ammunition, morale will likely be low already and you will have a high risk of masses of infantry surrendering, because they really have little choice if they can neither fight their opponents effectively, nor retreat (due to a lack of transportation and being slower than opposing armour and vulnerable to air attacks), and are not able to dig in for a siege (and there was little opportunity for that in North Africa and such a strategy also depends on plentiful stores of food and ammunition).
It has to be noted that, way before WW1 started, Italy made some territorial request to the Austrian-Hungarians, as those northern territories were contested by Italy and Austria-Hungary, even in warfare. And, more important, the Italians really didn’t switch sides in WWI, at all. They were a member of the Triple Alliance with Germany and Austria before the war (1882), but that was just a defensive alliance, and because Austria and Germany didn’t consult Italy before starting the war (Austrian declared war unilaterally on Serbia, Germany declared war on Russia), the Italians weren’t obliged to side with them, and in the end decided not to.
More, Italy already won two wars against Austria and, to fulfill the unification, they needed northern-east territories. So, for Italy, the WW1 was a third war for independence against Austria, after the A-R empire had not accepted to leave Venice,Trentino and South Tirol to Italy.
The treaty just before and into early WW1 was a defensive treaty, between Italy and Austria. Austria declared war first thus legally absolving Italy of having to declare for the Central Powers. They didn't turn against anyone, they just ignored the spirit of a treaty to gain land concessions.
@@leebinpoggersmomento6101 the treaty is there, written to be read. Doesn't matter the nationality of the reader. Only one more thing: they didn't ignored the spirit of the treaty, since the treaty itself stated that any change in the balcans had to be discussed before with all the members of the treaty, and then compensated. So, if there's someone ignoring the spirit of the treaty ,well, they are the austrians and their fellow germans.
Quite curious how, after all this time, still is carried on this myth of betrayal. In m opinion, much has to be in some racist point of view, that reveal the prejudice against the southern and "catholic" europeans very spread in northern european countries still nowadays, that portrays the southern as lazy, unreliable, always ready to steal to the "good&pure germanic (dutch, scandinavian, anglosaxon) "people" (but they meant race).
It's sad how it is still the most important divide in northern politician still in modern EU. That's why the "PIGS" should separate from EU, in my humble opinion.
The Italian Series 5 group of fighter planes were some of the most beautiful planes I have ever seen. The Dainler Benz powerplants meant they could fly with anything the allies had but there weren't enough to have any impact and Italy switched sides.
ahah i'm Italian XD, our army in ww2 was...... .. i have no words, Good Job for the video
a far cry from the romans
yeah... not only in WWII XD(I'm italian too)
The Italian forces fighting the Russians fought well enough. A lot depends on believeing in the conflict. Japan had similar problems with equipment but had a totally different reputation.
+HAdrian builtawall indeed, the Italian army has always performed very bravely the problem was the lack of good officers and weapons.
Japan had supreme experienced navy though, and ground forces werent the main focus in the Pacific theatre.
Iam an Australian and I new about the dire situation that the ordinary Italian soldier and his lack of arms was in as I read a lot about our African campaigns but It's funny how NOT many Aussie soldiers considered the Italians as cowards or "soft solders" but more how they where very poorly led by there officers. Also it's not very well know that the returning soldiers after the war who fought on the Russian front where very very disgustingly treated by there then current government !
Well, Italian paratroopers served under General Rommel were good fighting units and are well-armed and equipped. Good video, as usual!
And The 442nd Regiment is the most decorated unit for its size in U.S. military history. They are Japanese American. Fight against German in Europe. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/442nd_Infantry_Regiment_(United_States)
Folgore division. Still one of our best units
Lack of raw materials and lower industrial capacity than the British Empire and the United States, these were the premise for an inevitable defeat. Italy during the WWII came to produce 3 million tons of steel, Japan 6 million, Germany 30 million, UK 13 million, USSR 8.5 million and USA 80 million, these numbers say everything.
The Italians people and regular soldiers were not as eager to support the fascist regime and even less there war plans from the start so it's no surprise that they didn't perform as well in the war. There was even less enthusiasm to fight for the German side as 25 years earlier they fought a bitter war against them. Most war memorials in Italy show a shocking number of dead from ww1 even in small villages.
Awesome videoi m8, i also really enjoyed the small statement at the end, we should respect all soldiers that served even if don't support their views.
You probably are one of the few channels who _seriously_ talks about history, instead of spewing american/British propaganda everywhere.
Thank you for not generalising and making sure to let know the true facts.
"The Italians are lions as in brave men who stood there ground to the end."
-Winston Churchill
Why would Churchill make a peace deal with the Germans? This would've been a treason and a defeat for the Allies.
And no, he did not take any delight in bombing Germany, but doing so was necessary to block the German war effort.
Bengali -
Yeah , he really liked the krauts , they had to be bombed for their own good ( they were becoming to cocky) In fact Churchill was never thanked by the germans , does anyone know why?
@ Germany failed to make fighting an unattractive enough choice for the British populace.
I am fairly certain the avrage Brit didnt give much of a shit about Poland or France if that meant they didnt starve.
During the 70s I had a couple of Italian DPs in my installation crew, we became very friendly so they told me about their war experience in North Africa. They had no desire at all to fight for THE MEDIA MEN. So as soon as they were captured they happy built fortifications for the allies till the end of the war. The way they were captured is a classic.
11:40 well THATS why they lost the war
they lost war because allies was 90% of the world
Ya i agree much of the reason the Italians failed was the fact A. they couldn't arm everyone. B. What they did arm them with can arguably be considered lower quality including their tanks C. the application of said equipment wasn't used as effectively as it could.
@@sandrodream5418
Very good point. To think Germany, Italy, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Finland and Japan made up 10% of the world population at the time. ^ white countries and 1 non white country made up 10% of the worlds population of the time. How times have changed hey
@@sandrodream5418
That is 6 white countries. Sorry about my typing there
Love your videos! It's always interesting to see the real backbone to the history we are taught. It may be fun to skim just the top of history, but it's even better to really dig into it!
As a Greek with a lot of material and interviews available, my conclusion was this but also that they werent cowards, they just didnt believe in attacking Greece, guess the propaganda of Mussolini wasnt that good.Always speaking specifically about the Italy-Greece war, dont know much about their other fronts.
@john vento actually italy lost in greece.the italian army retreated into albania and was saved by the germans.
Learning new things, discovering new perspectives, constructing a better understanding of the world (and thus, of ourselves), finding fascination in what seems so unimportant to the many - that is fun. This channel and HOI4 have lots in common. Both are great, still imperfect but so promising, and both look like the exception in a sea of dumbed down productions. I find that they have the same sort of flavour.
Italy had already fought many wars and had won them.The problem was that it was exhausted, but despite this was the 2 power of the axis!
Dads unit in north Africa received some captured Italian equipment. He said you could wiggle the bullet while holding the cartridge and the hand grenades were like a sardine can and the explosion was week and had to be very close to cause a wound. The quality was bad. The equipment for the black shirt divisions was of much better quality but there weren't many of these divisions.
This is unfair. Italian army were only Non Playing Characters, put there by EIDOS Interactive just as ambientation.
People used to put wicker baskets on soldier's heads, just to loot stores guarded by them.
Italy 🇮🇹 was the 💯 absolute number one country in under water demolition, combat scuba divers!!
I think i can say that the seeds of the italian defeat of world war II have been spreaded during the '20s and the '30.
For be precise, the fascits regime, in order to gain more stability, had to seek the support of people who were part of the dominant plutocracy; among them, the General Badoglio who was chief of the joint staff from 1925 to 1940.
He was a member of the so called "old guard" and a sustainer of the WWI style "mass army". Badoglio fiercly opposed to the creation of a mechanized army and, by conseguence, to the creation of a solid industrial base.
On the sea, Adimiral Cavagnari was from 1934 to 1942 the chief of the Navy. According to him the RADAR was a "modern devilry", the idea of a naval aviation was a lost of leadership to the new born Air Force and the coordiante operaitions with other arms are just "a great mess".
If you ask me, a "better" period for itailan soldiers was during the short reign of the Italian Socialist Republic. During that time 4 Division were trained in Germany with german standard and organization but with italian equipment. No one were allowed to wear a rank if not in possession of real combat experience.
The effort of this men has been shown during the struggle for hold the gothic line against the allies. It's also remarkable that durng Chritmas 1944 the italians along with geramans were able to surprend allied troops and drive them back.
Anyway, since in HOI4 seems not contemplated a "gotterdammerung" scenario and it's not possible to play with the RSI why you don't make a video about this topic?
Italy hadn’t really industrialized before 1945, and their industrial boom came in the 1950s, with the explosion of car manufacturers like Fiat.
A great book about this is “The archipelago: Italy since 1945” by John Foot
"All Soldiers who served in World War 2 deserve respect, EVEN when we DON'T share their sides or views!"
What? You respect the SS Guards at Auschwitz? Why?
@@hf6947-f3w No, off course NOT, Harry. KZ camps guards don't deserce to be called soldiers. They were butchers. Inhuman cowards. They deserve only scorn and
infamy.
Agree
@@robynn144 Those were soldiers in WWII. The SS were a paramilitary organization with combat troops. If you respect all soldiers in WW2 that means you respect the SS guards.
What about the sailors then?
Thank you for posting this. Though I have read much about WW2 - most US submarine efforts in the Pacific - I have not seen much about the Italian effort. My father was with Patton's 3rd Army along with his younger brother. After the war he found out that he had cousins in the Whermacht as both Dad's and Mom's family came to the USA from the Duchy of Oldenburg in the 1860s.
Patton was very nearly captured by Italian troops near the Gela beachhead, imagine Patton being paraded in Rome as a POW? Anyway the troops in question were men from the Livorno Division, just after overrunning the forward US Ranger defences.
The lack of NCO's in the Italian division is a frightening prospect for the enlisted men.
Love this series of videos... well done
Italians can fight when they actually believe in the reason they're fighting. Like their Civil War.
Italians can only fight well in their civil war because there their enemy was the Italians
@@neieduardodepaula4556 i wanna se you in a war with that equipment
@@neieduardodepaula4556 r/historymemes moment
Italy 🇮🇹 had the FIRST JET AIR PLANE to fly cross country!! In the history of the world 🌎!! August, 1940!! Any questions, professor??
I feel kinda bad for the average Italian soldier. I think I would surrender too if I was in that situation. Imagine being stationed in north Africa being assaulted by the British with a weapon older than you were, with little to no artillery or tank support, while your CO had absolutely no clue wtf was going on. And all of this while trying to conserve ammo and energy due to a lack of strong supply lines due to very limited motorized vehicles to bring in supply, and the royal navy tearing the fleet protecting those supplies to shreds. It was damn near worst case scenario, would have been just as effective with a big stick while throwing rocks at the enemy.
And man that's only when the bullets started flying. I mean for most Italians to even get to the front-line meant marching.....in a desert, in the sun while badly resupplied, Jesus
I love these videos, especially the ones on divisional structure.
Great work. Italians did a great job bringing Germany down by being more a trouble then a real partner/support.
No offence to them they fought and died everywhere (Russia, Africa etc.) and they had a few good comanders like Giovanni Messe.
Btw. I like playing as Italy in Hoi3 BICE.
Germany did not need to accept the Italian offer of an alliance. Let us put the blame where it should go.With germany
Thank you for mentioning that one of the reasons Italy was not prepared for World War II was the Italian-Ethiopian war. It is generally not known that the war was vastly more expensive than Mussolini thought it would be. although I would mention that the war didn't actually end in 1936. Instead it turned into a brutal guerilla war that continued until Ethiopia was liberated in 1941. All of this turned Ethiopia into a financial black hole for Italy sucking up Italian resources, material, financial and human. It was by far much more expensive and draining than Italian spending in Spain during the Spanish Civil War.
Italy fought the largest war of conquest in the colonial era in Africa and in the end failed, to a large extent because it underestimated what the cost would be.
Im croatian but my grandfather fought in Ethiopia as part pf regiment made of Croats... He wrote diary and he wrote that 10 days after inital attack from eritrea his company had 13 people and 70 bullets and no more food. As he wrote they hunted cattle and took food from locals.
that sounds pretty crazy, but I believe you. You still have the diary?
+Military History Visualized i do it is on italian/croatian... ive just read how he and other deserted before beign deployed in libya. he joined partisans in croatia in 42. he saw a lot of things, he even was part of liberation of our home town zara/zadar which was under italy. pretty crazy
maybe you should check with city archive and/or museum, if they would be interested in a copy or something. I don't know, maybe they have plenty of those anyway, but I doubt it. Sadly I don't speak Italian nor Croatian. Translation would be great.
+Military History Visualized. my father wants it to stay in family i guess... theres a lot of family related stuff. i plan to translate it and then publish it on some forum or site. it is pretty in depth with a lot of day to day situations in a life of underequiped soldier
yeah, I can understand that, thus I meant a physical copy. Alternatively you could do a scan and get helping in translating online, I think Croatia was once - don't know if it still is - in my top 25 countries.
love these videos man keep em coming
Well, they do perform well in Hearts of Iron 4.
Alexpander just make 14/4 mountain divs
Brooks Coplen Sadly, that doesn’t work anymore.
DAMN CORNFLAKES!
With a national focus tree 5 yrs old. Fuck Paradox
Hearts of Iron IV brought me here, due to me wanting to build historically correct Italian forces. I'll be checking your channel about the other nations as well. Superb visualisation and information, thank you. Subscribed!
thank you! the Friday video includes an Italian Infantry Division for 1940, besides 8 infantry division layouts for the other majors + Poland and Romania.
You should do one on France!
Another fair and well done break down. Good job sir. I say good job!
When will you do a video on North African Campaign?
man i love your visual style
thank you!
Have you ever heard of these weapons? Semovente 90/53, Semovente da 75/18, and the Italian use of 90mm antiaircraft guns in the anti tank role.
heard yes, but not much more.
Military History Visualized you should search them up and research them, people need to know about them.
All of these are mentioned in the Flames of War books for the tabletop game. I've used the 75/18 and the 90 mm aa guns. The latter are quite the psychological weapon! lol. A video of those would be interesting to watch.
Uzbug i agree
There is a Wiki page on the tank Semovente 90/53. Only 30 were made and were ready for use in late 1942. They were supposed to be used on the Russian front, though when they arrived, they decided it was better employed for the defense of Sicily.
On paper they seemed a good anti-tank, but in reality they were not effective and not thought out well, but it was to late for retifications. Only one still exists today.
More or less the same story with the Semovente da 75/18, though first built in 1938, they were always on the backfoot of armament, contiously developing the tank and changing it's charateristics due to the fact that they didn't have knowledge of proper use as in todays terms (like most nations), so in practice they were always trying to catch up both in armament and in tactics.
The war ended early for Italy, July 1943 and once invaded it was all over in production and design terms, so the tanks etc. never reached full potential like most other nations that reached the end of the war on the winning side.
Remember most nations understood the need of tanks only after the war in Spain. So beforehand, already lacking in armaments they prefered to dedicate to naval and aeronautical, which they were more inclined to knowledge, both in use and construction.
That is interesting.
I didn't even know this things.
Keep up the good work.
Contrary to popular belief, Totalitarianism isn't the most efficient form of government, it is in fact the least. The only thing they are good at is controlling small area centralized conduits which before the internet included the media.
In general I agree with you, but the fascists in Italy and nazis in Germany didn't had total control and in some cases far from it, they were in certain areas corrupt and dysfunctional system. Whereas the Soviet Union under Stalin was quite efficient as far as I know, although the price for that was extremely high.
Love your videos.
However I think it was more that Stalin just spent his people. A ruthless tyrant who causes many unneccessary deaths in his paranoia and pursuit of ideology, Stalin was however not insane and took things by cold calculation.
For any Russian, whether they thought of him as a ruthless unbearable monster, a necessary evil or a Semi-Divine leader that historians centuries later would envy, Stalin understood perhaps due to his cynicism that no Russian (or very few) would be willing to lay down their lives for the Communist Party, for Marxism and much less Stalin himself. Once Stalin realized that Hitler was not a cold calculating stone hearted bureaucrat like himself, but an irrational obsessive and unreasonable maniac, Stalin's superiority in man power and resources and landscape and the Russian winter were easily able to compete with Hitler's army.
What's more is that Hitler was the opposite of cynical, he was a firm fanatic and thought of even ordinary concepts through the lenses of a romanticized view of Medieval and Ancient ways of thinking. Whether it be "blood and honour" or "war is good" or to the victor go the spoils, his compulsion to destroy Russia walked hand in hand with the fact that Hitler not only expected the German people to die for him, he even thought it plausible to expect them to die for Nazism, for the Nazi Party, for German Honour and for many of nonsensical reinterpretations of Teutonic concepts long since mostly defunct or buried in German culture.
Stalin learned to mobilize his man power and refused to be beaten and though he never admitted to anyone that purging the Red Army of its leadership nearly destroyed the Soviet Union, he still understood logistics and psychological warfare and was for his part able to rally people even those who despised him to die for their homeland.
Hitler on the other hand learned nothing, even coming to the conclusion that maybe Germans were not only no longer the Master Race but that the Slavs might be.
Hitler was the Hannibal of our time, he had developed an unquenchable obsession to destroy a country he had never been to and fixated on super weapons but he was unable to capitalize on his early military victories.
Like Scipio, Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt made Hitler out to be a Brilliant Super Villain because if you defeat a "genius" then it makes you look even better. But frankly, given the gross incompetance and lack of cooperation in the Reich, the staggering inefficiency of Totalitarianism and the fact that Hitler sabotaged his chance to be the First nuclear power and also the first Air Power with Jets, I have to say that Hitler was actually a much bigger fool than his supporters and critics let on.
Love your work :)
thx, yeah, but which tyrant doesn't "spend" his people?
I agree mostly, except for the ancient part, because I know too little about Hannibal et al, yet. Hence I can't agree nor disagree.
To follow up, I think much of the reason Stalin didn't have a large staff of unscrupulous Nobles holding banquets and living in castles like the Nazis was that almost everyone in his inner circle didn't last too long.
People like Goering, Rohm, Goebbels, Himmler, Bormann, and maybe even the indispensable Heydrich would have been LONG gone under Stalin.
You are right of course :)
That said, Stalin spent one Eighth BEFORE the war.
Even the Nazis weren't that paranoid.
Mao killed like 2% of his people and a good portion of them were killed by stupidity rather than purges (though many also were)
The Khmer Rogue has Stalin beat in that they spent HALF of their people but unlike Stalin, the Khmer Rogue had nothing to show for their efforts.
This was obvious in the fact that they picked a fight with the Vietnamese, a country who had already beaten FOUR super powers and was perhaps the first country since the Qin and the Mongols to even fight more than one in a single life time and survive.
Pol Pot even predicted a 30 to 1 kill ratio against the Vietnamese but it was just the opposite hahaha.
Lots of information. Thanks for all your work.
"I'll show you how an Italian dies". If you're not familiar with those words, that event, don't venture derogatory opinions on the Italian soldier.
With a tommy gun in one hand and a slice of pizza in the other?
Another problem was that there was so little standardisation of basic weapons - there could be three different types of rifle in use within the same division. One wonders what might have happened if they had halved (or even further reduced) the number of divisions, made them tripartite divisions, and redistributed the available equipment amongst them. In North Africa, instead of sending 200,000 men to the border of Egypt to do nothing, it would have been better to use most as supply and rear area troops (since getting supplies to the front was a big problem) and invade with just 30,000 properly equipped men (or whatever could be properly supplied) in mobile units. I guess that's what makes Italy an interesting challenge in Hearts of Iron.
the italians were braver than the french
This was a solid video and well presented. Everyone who fought against them said that Italians soldiers could fight well and often did. But inept leadership. poor logistics and really inadequate arms failed the Italians. Even the Regia Aeronautica was cursed. In November 1939 ( 2 months after the War started), an internal report concluded that only 40% of RA planes were even combat ready.
technically in WWI the pact with central powers was a defensive one and in that case, Austria and Germany were attacking. Also for an entire year we were uncertain if entering the war against Austria or stay neutral in exchange of Austria's AltoAdige, Trento e Trieste, so our change of side was slow and very predictable
This was a great video...I hope you do more about Italy later in the war and maybe some more videos on the Axis minor countries
who dafuq dislikes this? can someone give me one reason to dislike?
damn Italians
I don't think so.. this video gives justice to the italian soldiers.
As an italian i can say that this video give justice to our brave soldiers that went in war with a very low equipment against armies with a better weaponery.
Everyone is brave and good at war on a fucking Sherman tank.
a Sherman or 50K Shermans?
Probaly People who don´t like the creators opinion, like he never realy says im for this side or sth but i think you can hear a certain opinion he got about this. Then it could be ultra nationalists who don´t like the bashing on their country.
I can´t give you a good one though.
Great video mate! Greetings from Romania.
You forgot of the wars that got nowhere nor gave them valuable resources
And If Italy had a strong Industry they'd have a poasibility of winning, and you know Oil
If the Fascist regime was efficient at least as half of the Nazi regime, Italy would have won easily.
won what? the ww2 by itself? explain yourself
Thanks a lot for posting. There is way too little info on Italy (and the other (smaller) Axis powers) during WW2 out there. Close to none actually. Concerning the Axis, all the documentaries are about Germany or Japan. Love ur videos. Keep it up!
There is a wealth of information it is just not in English.
Guys could you please tell me what did Italians lose after WW2? I couldn't find on google
you mean territory? as far I as know nothing in Europe, but I assume all their "colonies" in Africa were gone.
Military History Visualized Istria, Zara (today Zadar) and the Dodecanese islands, other than the colonies ofc
oh well, thanks for clearing that up. kinda obvious in hindsight.
NightVulcan67 Thanks mate
Military History Visualized Thank you
I come from Italian and German relatives, though they left for America before this. I always like seeing some just to why the Italians lost in the war, rather than people spouting nonsense they read of a baseless TH-cam comment.