JLPT Harms Japanese Acquisition? Even if you don't take it? Free your Japanese from JLPT ideology!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- "Should I take JLPT" is a question many learners ask. But another question is: does JLPT thinking cause problems even if you aren't taking it? This video considers the problems of the Japanese Language Proficiency test.
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learnjapaneseon...
"A pain in the sit-downeries" is probably the most polite way i've ever heard that said
Frankly, If you can't take the JLPT without having to "think" about it, an exam should be the least of your concerns.
Some people need the paper for jobs. Fair enough.
But having the paper when you can't *comfortably* communicate with someone just sounds like digging your own extra fancy, very official, grave.
It's been quite shocking to discover that the JLPT is just a multiple choice test because for getting a proficiency certificate in English I also had to write an essay, do more complex reading comprehension and am interview... Honestly, the Japanese one seems unlikely to reflect your actual level if it's structured like this.
That's correct. It is one of the most outdated major national language proficiency tests in the world.
We stan Cure Dolly, our android queen. 🥰🤖
Thank you!
Oh your point around the 11 minute mark got me. I started doulingo a month ago and I've caught myself mixing up basic vocabulary because they often teach all the vocabulary in groups like that. I think I really should drop using it before it completely messes up my learning
This was very interesting. I've taken JLPT N5 and passed. I took it to see where I stood because I've only ever done self study for Japanese. It was a fun trip with friends and it gave us motivation. I was surprised that it didn't have a speaking part. For curiosity sake I looked at taking a DALF in French to see how it measured up. It's really expensive and it has a speaking part. So since I don't need it for any reason, the cost and distance to travel to take it, means it's not something I plan to take just for fun. I didn't care for the JLPT format. I reminds me a lot of the SAT (which I'm terrible at). I agree that you have to study HOW to take the test, not just content and I"m not really fond of that. I think they don't test the subject matter but how well you understand questioning method. I also read the grading system and that's complicated. In the end, I have a nice certificate. I still think my speaking is my weakest area.
i do self study as well, i never knew about jlpt nor was going to use it, and i got a better understanding of it. so use it if you have a good understanding of basic particles and verbs . i knew all of the grammar i just dont have most vocab.
But I need a high JLPT level to impress all the 可愛い中国女子 I meet at these Japanese language exchange events? lol
Seriously though, the JLPT is so widespread (esp. in my country where it's required to seek employment in Japan), even my mum wants me to do it to have something to show for all my time spent on Japanese instead of using it to just watch "Chinese cartoons".
So my plan is somewhat like described in this video. Just do some practice N5/N4/N3 tests at my school and then do the N3 next year just for fun.
If you need it you need it. You could watch 日本語の森 N3 videos which would mean watching moderately amusing Japanese content while learning the dreaded structure-free Grammar Points. That way you aren't sacrificing at least some immersion! th-cam.com/channels/Vx6RFaEAg46xfAsD2zz16w.html
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 What do you think about Yuki sensei's N2 grammar videos? th-cam.com/play/PLmfiO-Jszu_gFC2RxFwQJqBvG17gGlSD3.html
There is actually a video "JLPT N1 and not fluent". From a guy who was learning Japanese a lot, and even some time in Japan, but didn't got fluent.
I would say something else, but... I'm just agree with you, and you've said it already. Only thing, maybe these JLPT N2 people was able to use grammar only consciously? ^_^ Like solving math problems. While to be fluent, language should be work in subconsciousness.
Heh. And I actually hate these "ready patterns". Maybe they are useful in some ways. But damn. I prefer to understand different parts of them, and maybe only after that hear about them. And more in a side of common expressions and with some details, why are they work this way.
Essentially if all you do is "study" - however much - your chances of becoming competent in the language are low. And if you are in Japan (especially if you are teaching English) it can actually take serious effort to break out of the "English bubble" and use Japanese for anything but saying "thank you" in shops.
don't bee fooled. The video you are talking is from Matt vs. Japan, and あのやつ is a lot over what you call fluency. he is a damned perfectionist, the kind of people looking for perfect accent. he is more Japanese than a Japanese
@@glicogeno4550 Yep. I'm talking about this video. He was saying that he couldn't watch anime and stuff with complete comfort, and wasn't talking like actual people there and this kind of stuff.
So it looks like his perfectionism moved him to some strange direction. So I don't think that it's "being fooled". And no. I understand that hi was good in Japanese, but meanwhile he wasn't fluent in Japanese. And we actually don't really know in which way he was using his knowledge (I'm not sure how to describe it, and it's a bit long story).
Of course it should be easy for him to pick up natural language, and get fluent and stuff. Actually, it's strange that he didn't made it by himself. But I find it interesting that all these studies didn't bring him to fluency.
that direction you are talking is a type of asperger syndrome. when watching anime, if i could understand 50% with no subtitles, i'd say: wow! but he is different. he probably understand 99% and he is worried about that 1% he doesn't grasp.
@@glicogeno4550 Well. Considering that you don't get it. Lol.
He said that he understand 80% of it. But to start to understand other 20%... You won't believe it: you need to watch anime. And to learn to speak completely like a native, you need to speak with natives.
It's not about "wow!", or perfectionism. It's about actually learning.
What you talked about in this viseo is exactly why I dropped my japanese course. So much busywork, expaining some particular expressions, but at the same time I had no idea how to approach a sentence, and also had no time to immerse myself into real japanese, not textbook examples and exercises
Hello Cure Dolly! As always thanks for an amazing video. I've been watching your videos for a while now and at one point got some advice from you in one of these comments that really got to me, thanks again for that. This comment might turn out a bit long so apologies for that in advance. This video really hit home for me since I had a particularly disheartening experience with the JLPT N3 last December. So to sum up my japanese learning process. Japanese was not the first foreign language I had tackled so I started to learn grammar with Tae Kim's guide. The fact that kanji seemed so impossible frustrated me to no end. So I took Nihongo shark's advice and finished heisig without learning any actual Japanese. It took me about three months to get the 2200 stories in my head but I enjoyed the process so that was cool and I really wanted to start on japanese so I had that motivation too. Then I started reading grammar guides and watching your structure videos. By then I decided to take the JLPT to challenge myself and see if I could do it. It was September so I had three months to study. I convinced myself that N3 was a difficult yet achievable goal so I signed up for that here in Peru where I'm currently living. It was study hell for three months. I studied 50 new Anki words of a JLPT premade deck a day plus all the reviews which I set at reviews first. Once the 2000+ words were finished in my Anki in the first month I started going crazy on the Shin Kanzen Master N3 books for grammar and listening. In the end I took it in December and got my results in February that I had passed it (haven't received the physical degree due to quarantine) but after taking the test on December 1st I was so sick of studying that I stopped doing anything related to the language. I'm just barely taking it back up now. I really love this language but turning something you love into a chore is a bad idea. I feel I've learned so much data and yet almost so little japanese by just cramming so much into my head. Now that I'm reading stuff I like in japanese and am actually learning without trying to pass a test I can really feel what you mean in your videos. Immersion is definitely the way to go. I've learned it the hard way but a language is a tool for communicating as you have stated before and not just a subject to be learned and forgotten like everything we learned at school. Thanks again for everything!!!
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I am very glad that you are back to being able to enjoy Japanese again!
I've studied japanese for some time and I'm about to do the JLPT5, I'm glad my teacher has always told us that passing the exam is nothing unless you can actually using.
Yes that's very true! I am glad some teachers make this clear.
Fantastic point about how one should avoid learning vocabulary by group (the apple, pear example). Because that's what actually happens when you do: You try to remember if it was this, or that.. I know realize that's exactly what happened to me for certain words, and never for others. I learned 'りんご" only once, and remembered it forever after, and I learned なし at a completely different time - never a problem. But for other words I seem to have learned them as part of a themed group.. and problems occur.
Thank you for this video. This summarizes my experience learning at a japanese school with japanese teachers. (Your explanations are better than those of my native teachers btw) At first it helped, but as lessons went on they became less and less helpful. I don't want to train for the jlpt or for a job interview, I just wanted to read manga and the course started deviating with my goals, so I left. My parents think It got difficult and that's why I left, but that's not true. I decided reading practice is what I needed, so I left because the course stopped proving useful.
Honestly, if you are serious about acquiring functional Japanese reading practice is much better than a lot of abstract learning once you have the basics.
ASK graded readers are good for reading practice and then I moved onto 岩波少年文庫. Any other recommendations at this sort of level?
@@tfacgbb4690 You mean you are reading books from 岩波少年文庫 - these are mostly regular children's novels. At this level you can read pretty much what you want. You are like a child in the sense that very grown-up material like news (if you are interested in that stuff) will be hard, but you can start off with NHK News Web Easy. You can play text-heavy games like visual novels. If you still need furigana, all the Level 5 games have them. The Layton series is a very good choice - 90% text - interviewing people and discovering the story and 10% puzzles that are mostly logical puzzles explained in not-too-difficult Japanese text. So if you have access to a Nintendo device these are a good choice (make sure it isn't region locked - Switch and the old DS aren't, 3DS is).
You can watch practically any anime with Japanese subtitles there are lots of J-subs on this site www.kitsunekko.net/dirlist.php?dir=subtitles%2Fjapanese%2F - They won't have furigana but you can bounce subtitles straight into your browser to use Yomichan on them when you are stuck. I explain how here: th-cam.com/video/zi1TalkmcRU/w-d-xo.html
Good luck. You have a whole world in front of you.
The experience points part at the end helped me a lot. Thank you
Huh, I am quite surprised with Cure Yasashiki's experience, I personally thought people who took JLPT N2 were very proficient and as a symbol of admiration (Since I consider myself probably in the range of N3-4)
It's rather eye-opening, and honestly I am grateful I didn't obsess over the JLPT very much and just treated the N1-2 tests as something to care about for next year.
The decks when I decided to study the JLPT vocabulary felt a lot more boring than just discovering your own words in the wild and making your own deck out of them, thank goodness for that
I was surprised by Cure Yasashiku's experience too. I was aware that the study-centered approach to Japanese is a bad one and that conventional methods are very faulty - but I didn't expect that N2-takers would be _that_ uncomfortable with Japanese. It was a bit of an eye-opener.
I was very surprised as well! Full disclosure...I did not pass the actual exam. I did feel a huge sense of accomplishment at being able to manage the conversation though. After I responded to the proctor in Japanese, he then went on to hold a mini conversation with me. He also approached me during the intermission asking me if I found the exam hard when he saw I did not finish the first section..in Japanese...and I responded in Japanese. Hee...that was the best part of the whole experience!
I completely agree that the grammar points drill and the like are thieves of immersion time. Interestingly enough, my main problem was my reading speed, which impacted everything, not just the reading comprehension part. It did not help that most of the reading passages were quite boring...nothing I would read by choice. Even so, had I done much more immersion and much less "study," I probably would have passed. I was close enough to passing that a faster reading speed would have done it.
So...my suggestion is that if you must take the higher-level tests is that you are still better off with more immersion and less "study." Even with the grammar points, you will probably do better with the language "intuition" you gain from immersion than with the "busy work" of memorization.
It has been three years since I took the test, and I have not retaken it. To be honest, I have not really been "studying" Japanese since (except for watching these videos :)), and my current work is mostly in English. I spend much of my recreation time in Japanese though...anime, games, and reading. I do believe that my Japanese has continued to improve over this time. My reading speed and comprehension have certainly improved...as has my listening ability.
I am glad I had the experience of taking the test, but I don't think that I will retake it (or N1) if I don't have to.
@@yasashiku5546 I think in a more normal modern exam where your conversational ability would have counted strongly in your favor you would probably have passed. I think not "studying" at your current stage is absolutely normal. Most users of English by your level are just using the language. Certainly they (and you) may look up something here and there and following my later videos can give some useful extra apparatus, but essentially there is a sliding scale beginning (if you are going at it fairly intensively) after around 3 months, where immersion gradually replaces study. At 3 months of course immersion and study are nearly the same thing as you are learning new things with every sentence, you will also be continuing the course (if you are doing Organic), but (very) gradually and naturally the "study" element tails off and you get to a point where "living" the language is your main interaction and "study" is a small sideline in looking up unknowns and learning useful extra bits of structure.
@Yasashikumy my "proctor" (man in charge?) asked everyone: I don't care if you are doing well or badly. Are you having fun?
Obviously he knew what he was asking for. Those who take the N3-N2-N1 test have high expectations. Usually points for universities or job opportunities.
But who does N5-N4 has only one reason: to have fun studying and having fun taking the test. A person who hasn't passed the N5-N4 test will definitely do it again. It's about fun or adrenalin.
If it was the first time you took the test, you obviously didn't know that it would be very likely that you would have failed.
As I said in another mistreated post, jlpt is all about speed.
If you are able to answer every question it is not enough. You have to read and respond in a minute, the same thing you can do in your native language. There is no time to breathe.Take N5 or N4 if you can, just for fun. I don't see why you started with N2, of course it was the first time, otherwise you should have known about the speed.It's a proficency test, if you evaluate yourself at N2 you have to take N3
I am using the Core 2000 for hearing and learning a few words at a time. I have noticed exactly that "which one was it" as I came to a section in that anki deck where there were all these tiny adverbs like いずれ or ほぼう, that explain some kind of vagueness. Out of all the themed groups, this adverb group has been probably the most damaging. I thought to myself even without watching the video "learning them together will just cause more confusion" so I switched to learning order to random. So so much easier honestly. Glad that this wasn't just my experience.
14:20 onwards and I felt my the hairs on my arms chillingly stood up. That's a great point of view you have there. People have become slaves of the JLPT, ensnared by the idea that one must reach this particular level. Thank you so much.
And thank you for commenting!
This makes me think of all the Japanese learners I read in different sites always mentioning that the most difficult aspect of Japanese is the writing system when actually, the most difficult aspect of Japanese is acquiring the Japanese thought logic which is why your channel exists, right?
It makes me think they mainly explore the language superficially.
Yes the idea that the writing system is the biggest difficulty is a beginner's perspective. Especially the ones who talk about "three writing systems" - kanji is only thing that presents a learning challenge - hiragana and katakana are like uppercase and lowercase letters in English (ABCDE only looks like abcde because we know them so well). A week's work. Kanji are a big job - but with the Organic approach they are just a part of vocabulary - and vocabulary is necessary with any language - and a part that helps us a lot. Absolutely the biggest challenge and the most exciting part of the adventure (at least for this android) is understanding the logic of Japanese thought.
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 lol ABCD argument is so on point, I've never noticed how different uppercase looks compared to lowercase. Probably very confusing to someone who's learning it from scratch
@@cherries_and_wine Well it's almost as different as hiragana and katakana so for non alphabetic-based learners it is essentially two alphabets.
Man, she will go down as one of the best teachers of TH-cam for Japanese because she breaks down the BAD teaching styles that people/ books teach for Japanese because they don’t excell in teaching nor the language they’re communicating from( nor the language itself; or 2 or the three.
Man, if only more people knew her…
I never had any interest in taking the JLPT outside of N5 to see how well I have been doing for the last 6 years because it would be a waste of time. It shouldn't be the end-all-be-all in learning Japanese or the road to become fluent (as people think you will be by taking it) I do thank the lucky stars It is not mandatory for me.
Hey, I just recently found your videos but they've been really helpful! I've recently started learning Japanese and your videos are amazing for breaking down how the grammar actually works on a fundamental level. I'll probably need to go back to rewatch things to get the information to stick (Just because of the amount of new information), but it's very helpful and well structured
Thank you so much. Yes it is important to re-watch. You are likely to pick up a certain amount of information the first time and deepen your understanding on successive watchings. Good luck!
I started working in Japan recently but unfortunately in order to advance my career I have to take the N2 exam.
That is unfortunate. If you don't need it in a hurry it would be a good idea to keep immersing so that your natural level is as high as possible when you do start preparing for the exam. If you need it quickly しかたないですね。
本当にすごく良いビデオです。
This is, without doubt, the best analysis of the JLPT that I’ve ever seen! Usually they are very black and white: it’s either the touchstone of your Japanese ability OR it’s the biggest waste of time ever. And again, usually, the former camp have passed it and the latter, usually, haven’t.
I’m working towards the N2 having climbed up through and passed N5>N3.
And you are absolutely correct - N3 did, and N2 does, feel like memorising grammar points for the sake of doing it. What is also annoying is learning essentially the same point at the different levels expressed in a different way. (I nearly spat my drink over the screen when によって came up in your video!!!!) Just teach one point in all the ways at one time, tell us which is primarily used under which circumstance and let’s all get on with our lives!!!
For what it’s worth (probably not a lot but hey - not doing much else at the moment are we?!) I have a love/hate relationship with the JLPT.
I’m with you on the N5 and to be honest the N4. There’s no harm in trying them and they really do give you a decent basis for the language. We can argue over the method of teaching and to an extent the content, but they do give learners some sense of achievement, a mapped out learning path through the foundations, and some formal, official recognition of your progress. The last is especially true of older learners like myself (I remember the 70s clearly - let’s not be more specific eh?) who aren’t sitting a GCSE anytime soon. Even if you wanted to, not many UK schools teach it and you’d struggle to get to sit the exam. I know exams aren’t the “be all and end all” but still - nice to get a bit of paper. If you have a Japanese teacher (in person or online) they can “fill in the blanks” that aren’t covered by the test, primarily Output. Also, having gone to Japan for the first time not long after my N4, they do at least teach you how to “ride the runaway horse” when you trot out your highly polished, pre-prepared phrase and get a full firehouse of Japanese turned on you ;-)
Like you say though - if you need it, you need it!
Thank you so much for your kind words. And good luck with N2. A suggestion that may or may not be of interest (and it really depends on your relation to the language) would be not so much to "work up to N2" as to work past it. However this is really based in the Organic approach which is primarily non-study oriented and you may prefer a more study-centered approach.
From an Organic standpoint I would suggest rather than "targeting" N2, to just get on with your Japanese life, immersing and enjoying until you reach the point where you feel that N2 is really a bit beneath your level. Then would be the time to do a bit of exam-technique study (because it is such an exam-takers exam) and knock it off.
I heard you can miss like half the questions on the JLPT and still pass. Crazy.
Yes, but at the higher levels the pass-rate is around a third. It tests too little and is strict in a silly quizmaster way about what it does test.
First off, I hope you're feeling better.
Now, as AI programs are beginning to slightly catch up to your advanced programming, do you think the JLPT might be improved, without adding too much more cost, if they can be proctored by AI that can actually assess the examinee's speaking ability (Like if you took the Grammarly concept and applied it to speaking in a test environment)? Or maybe they don't even see a problem and won't bother, because I can see that being the case too.
Unfortunately, Cure Dolly, or the person behind the AI, has passed way.
Thanks so much for pulling me back from the brink of JLPT. I was signed up for the first level last month (Dec 2020), but thankfully Covid meant it was cancelled. I'm 54, I don't need any such test for my job or career, but I do aim to be generally competent in the real world of Japanese, simply because I want to be. So, indeed, why would I put myself through JLPT? So, time to go and actually read some Japanese. Thanks again.
Yes, you wouldn't have any need for JLPT. 頑張ってください。
Thank you Dolly sensei for this eye-opening video! I'm going to take the n4 this year, and if I pass I plan to take n3. But after watching this, maybe I don't need to depend on the JLPT as proof of my Japanese level as I thought. And for a while now, I've been having doubts about the JLPT and if taking it is the right choice. Lately, I've been doing is use my jplt books to learn grammar, kanji, and get my listening & immersion elsewhere from manga, youtube videos, tv shows, etc.
One day I will take N2 for more career opportunities but until then, I'll learn at my own pace and in my own way with immersion. :)
I think your approach to N2 is right - you will probably have to do some study for it specifically as it is a very "exam technique" type exam but taking it when you are comfortably beyond its level and have been for some time is the best strategy if you are going to take it at all.
I’m just learning kanji and vocabulary, and watching anime, and listening to Japanese podcasts. From time to time I spend some time on grammar, but only because I’m interested in something I’ve heard. Building up vocabulary and listening to native speakers is for me the key to learn and acquire language. That way I’ve also learned English and German. I’ve tried the JLPT N5 test in some apps, and always passed, but I don’t know, if I should take it in real life, maybe it would be nice just for the CV :D or for family to show them something, that I don’t waste my time, when I’m learning Japanese.
I think that's the best way to take JLPT - wait until you are pretty far past a level and then just go back and ace it (probably won't work with N1, which even Japanese natives can't all do).
I still planning career wise to do it in December but, I love that you talked about this.
Yes of course if you need it for career reasons it is necessary. Good luck in December!
Hi Cure Dolly-sensei, I noticed that this video (and I assume your other videos, though I haven't checked) is set so that it cannot be embedded into other websites, and when embedded it says 'go watch it on TH-cam' essentially. I'm not sure if that's set up that way by choice or by accident, so I thought I should mention it to you in case it's the latter.
There is currently a discussion on possibly learning 'anime/manga/light-novel/pop-culture'-centric grammar on the BunPro site, and ran into this little speed-bump when someone linked this video in the discussion. Thought I should let you know in case you'd prefer to open up the access to wider public discussion. Cheers!
PS: The BunPro discussion is titled, "How the heck are JLPT N-levels decided?" I will attempt to link to it in another reply below. If that doesn't show up, it will be because of YT filtering comments with links in them probably (which is also a channel setting, I believe).
Link to BunPro discussion: community.bunpro.jp/t/how-the-heck-are-jlpt-n-levels-decided/28807
Thank you. This is not deliberate and may be a change in defaults by TH-cam because I know some of my earlier videos were embedded in other places (in fact I embedded some myself on my own website). I'll look into this because I prefer to enable sharing.
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Cool, glad to have helped! 🥳
Did the link to the discussion show up in my replies above?
@@robharwood3538 It is working now. Embedding seemed to be turned off for that particular video. I don't know why.
Maintenant que je sais que le français a été uploadé dans ton esprit, je peux te remercier en français 😄
Merci beaucoup 🔆💛🔆 beaucoup 🌟 pour ces précieuses informations ☘️
As you said JLPT doesn't really test some abilities of the learner, like the ability to form sentences and the listening (this one is pretty weak in the exam). I personally rely on JLPT for learning kanji and grammatical structures. But on the other side I try to get as much input as I can from listening to anime, videos and lots of stuff.
So basically I always try to improve that part that JLPT doesn't test. Hope this will work to learn japanese :D
Yes, input is the answer! Learning "points" out of context even when they are taught structurally (which no one seems to do but me) just leaves you with a bunch of lego blocks and very little idea what to do with them. Beyond the earliest stages we should be using the language as our _main_ activity and learning more structure as a side-support.
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you very much! I've got a question: Do you think I should learn both Kun and On reading when learning a new Kanji?
@@jfr49djd39jcuuhg No. Neither should you "learn kanji" in the abstract. Kanji should be learned along with the words you encounter them in. So if the first you encounter a kanji in uses the kun-reading, that is what you will learn first. Later you will come to other words that use the on-reading(s). I made a video about this here: th-cam.com/video/b5jL-m0eIG0/w-d-xo.html
The only exception here is that it IS worth learning the general principles that make the on-readings of many kanji easy to guess. I did the video on _that_ here: th-cam.com/video/pfAjdBj-p8U/w-d-xo.html
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thank you android girl, you're kind
@@jfr49djd39jcuuhg Thank you and good luck. Feel free to ask me if you have other questions.
Thank you for your point of view!
I'm learning JLPT 5 vocabulary because I'm a beginner and as you said, I would end up learning the same sooner or later, but I can't sit the exam and I'm more likely to never sit the exam so I'm only learning the vocabulary, and maybe I will do the same with the JLPT 4. I did study with the HSK materials (Chinese proficiency test) and I did work for me to learn the foundation of the language. But indeed, Japanese and Chinese are quite different when it comes to grammar. On other hand I don't need the exam and for me it isn't important at all so I'm putting more effort into doing more listening.
My advice is to as soon as possible start learning vocabulary from the words you encounter in your immersion. JLPT5 vocabulary is more than enough, with structure lessons, to get started. By JLPT4 vocabulary, you should not even be thinking of learning from lists. Here is a video of how to go about it: th-cam.com/video/3rT1zaHSmog/w-d-xo.html
Amen sister
"If you don't, then thank whatever Gods are looking after you and avoid it like the plaque.."
🤣🤣🤣🤣 5:08
As far as grammar points are concerned the magical formulas are always based off the English translation in spite of the translation never being absolutely accurate. These linkages become increasingly frustrating and discouraging as you're constantly battling the inaccuracies of your linkage to each form (Polite, formal, Negative, Past negative, Imperative, Conditional, Causative, Passive) Rather than being told wouldn't, didn't, did you or did not translations emphasis on the context would be great. I hope I can gain more experience points in the days to follow cuz that shall be the key as you've stated, I'm staying clearing of JLPT for a stated period of time as I don't believe the fluency I seek needs it now.
Good decision. The best strategy if you need JLPT for anything is to take levels after you've comfortably passed them (and could be attempting the next level up). That way the JLPT approach doesn't have to influence you.
What I don't understand is *why* this is the case when we are talking about things like working and living in Japan, especially now that Japan has changed its immigration proceedings to allow for easier access to permanent residency. Compare this to the various English as a Foreign Language exams, which *do* test proficiency across the entire spectrum, grading each on an individual scale. Australian immigration demands minimum grades across that entire spectrum depending on what professional area you want to work in. Obviously you wouldn't want a medical doctor to barely scrape by!
Maybe JLPT will eventually catch up with the modern world.
I've lived in Japan for many years now, i've taken the JLPT N1 and failed several times (in both Japan and overseas), maybe I've succumbed to the immersion thief trying to pass the 'trivia quiz'?....Hopefully however, I'm not one of those 'shufflers' at the exam. I found the proctors of the JLPT overseas to be more friendly upon registration and always replied in Japanese to their questions. In Japan I've always found it much more serious. I'm always surprised at how some examinees don't even seem to understand basic instructions, even in N1.
Since you always replied in Japanese you surely aren't one! I suspect the ones who couldn't understand basic instructions in Japanese are often the ones that pass. It seems to be that kind of an exam.
Memorization itself doesn't take into account whether or not you understand the idea. Anyone can memorize anything (it's actually not that difficult, you just have to not think of anything else), but when it comes to language, language is just a tool used to express ideas (turning incorporeal thought into corporeal vibration (sound) that conveys it to the listener, which is then decoded back into its original incorporeal form as thought). Understanding ideas and concepts can't be done with mere memorization (safe for a few gifted people). It requires building on contextual examples of real world application; for example: reading Alice in Wonderland in Japanese and breaking down each sentence so everything is understood in relation to each other.
I am in complete agreement - apart from the coding and decoding. I believe abstract thought is more closely symbiotic with language than that. Without language we are not capable of very abstract thought. Language isn't only the means of expressing abstractions, it is the tool we need to create them in the first place.
Before you answered a comment for me saying that you believe its good to wait to speak until you have a base amount of knowledge (maybe 3 months or so) but that you feel like waiting upwards of a 1.5 years or more can be a waste and that its important to use your skills. That being said, what do you feel are the best ways to start "Outputting" especially for those not living in Japan.
I don't think there is any actual harm in speaking before 3 months if you happen to have anyone to speak to - but it doesn't do a great amount of good either because in that time very few people are able to have much of a conversation. But in the end experience isn't measured in months or years. It is measured in hours. "A year of learning Japanese" can mean a few dozen hours or hundreds - even thousands with passive and semi-passive listening included. For conversational "output" a good resource is VRChat which I talked about in a recent video. However I would recommend getting a language exchange partner first. Or a conversation tutor (essentially with the first you are exchanging time - spent in talking English or your native language - for money - which you would need to pay a conversation tutor). Both can be done online. It is best to build up both skill and confidence in conversation before plunging into something like VRChat. When you're ready, here it is: th-cam.com/video/BlTR2UIzBVU/w-d-xo.html
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 Thanks for the advice, I am one of those that has waited quite a while to start speaking though I do occasionally, but I haven't in a formal setting. I have gotten to a point where I have read several books in language (currently the 2nd Harry Potter) and understand slice of life immersion fairly easily, so I figure it's time I bite the bullet.
@@ohtalkwho9816 Then really you should be able to speak in VRChat or wherever you can. There are not so many opportunities outside of Japan but fortunately we can make some!
By the way, what do you think of wanikani for kanji? I have been using it and I think it's really helped me.
If you are going to front-load kanji I get the impression (I haven't used it) that it is the best method around. Personally I recommend front-loading only a small starting base and then learning kanji along with words from immersion. However Wani kani teaches kanji in Japanese words, which is a HUGE leap up from English keywords.
Yes! If it only taught kanji then it would be a waste, but they use words to soldier on said studying, mnemonics and context sentences. I recognize so many kanji now even though I'm only halfways through.
@@ムネタ That's a step up from Heisig, though I am not a huge fan of out-of-context sentences. But I know a lot of people like it.
@@TheArbieo yeah I know! I actually asked this question while being over level 30, so I am familiar with more than 1000 kanji already. I can't fathom how painful it would've been had I tried consuming native media without WK. Makes recognizing kanji so much easier! Don't worry, I know kanji is just a stepping stone. I need more vocab and context to put to work all these structure lessons (especially when I finish an anime episode with at least +100 words I don't know ugh.) So yeah, I'm all good!
and this is the reason i never tend to take such meaningless exams but rather go through your structure course ^^ ビデオを取ってくれたありがとう。最高です。意味が易しくなります。 (not sure if this works in japanese xD) まだよくないですけど。
Thank you so much. Your Japanese is mostly correct. A slightly better version is: 動画をアップしてくれてありがとう. ビデオ exists in Japanese but 動画 is much more usual. とる in the sense of "take (a picture or a video)" is 撮る but アップする is more natural in this case (as well as easier!)
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 amazing.. one day when i can safely afford it after this damn corona crises ima go and be your patreon ^^ gimmi some time ^^ thx for what u do ^^
How did you come up with the organic method?
Essentially by self-learning analysis. I was "seeded" by an idea from Jay Rubin-sensei that has enormous logical implications that he never drew. At a later stage I read Japanese grammar in Japanese, which confirmed much of what I had already deduced and helped to refine it.
Cure dollのポイントに同意しますがもし日本で就職するなら、それはとても重要です。時々、ふりがなのある日本のライトノベルを読み、 伊藤 潤二の名作を読み始めました。
また、n1とかn2に合格し、学ぶ文法や語彙を使用しない人にも会いました。そんな無駄な努力を考えると自分の心を壊します。さらに、ほとんどの人は彼女とか彼が証明書を持っていない限り、そんなことを信じていないというのは事実だよ。
相変わらず動画をリリースしてくれてありがとうございました。
就職のための必要があれば、仕方ないですね。でもLNを読むのは大切なのです。頑張ってください。
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 はあい、精一杯頑張りたいようとします。
Do you think learning 5000 frequently used Japanese words Deck from Anki (with native audio of example sentence too) and using weblio for grasping the context of each word is good way to learn??
I think the "core vocabulary" decks and similar approaches are a bad idea for a lot of reasons. I explain why and how I recommend acquiring vocabulary here: th-cam.com/video/3rT1zaHSmog/w-d-xo.html
Is it weird that I am kinda relieved that I wont need to stress to much with the JLPT when the time comes? I'm the type that stresses about a lot when it comes to everything. In my Japanese its my ability to understand, construct, accent, and of course my academic level. It's weird. It's bad that the JLPT is just another standardized test that doesn't truly focus on testing your ability, but rather because its just a standardized test it kinda looses it's mystique. I've taken thousands of standardized tests.
The test of your Japanese is: can you use and enjoy it?
Hm, interesting point of view. I passed the N2 this december and my only preparation was an n2 vocabulary deck and hours and hours of anime. So I wouldn't say I lost time to immersion, but that doesn't mean you're wrong - you're just outlining the wrong way to do it (which most people are doing, I guess)
Congratulations. My general advice to people wanting to take N2 or N3 (or the earlier ones come to that, and if there is no hurry) is to go past it and then take it - that is just go on with one's immersion life until the exam is considerably below one's level. I am surprised that you passed N2 without specific exam preparation (it is an exam-takers' exam) but you may have the right mind for that kind of thing.
N1 some Japanese natives have trouble with.
The video has good points but this format is not followed only by JLPT but also in other languages tests. Proficiency does not means that the student know the language in a perfect way, but it is more likely the student has mastered many aspects of the language.
Perfection is not the point. The point is ability to use the language.
thank you
Wow, that sounds like a really bad test. I’ve taken English and German proficiency tests in the past and they were nothing like the JLPT (which I’ve never taken so far). There were some multiple choice questions, sure, but you also had to write an essay and pass a 15 min long speaking assessment where you were asked questions and had to form your own answers in real time. I’d say that’s a good way to judge someone’s level, but only doing the multiple-choice questions doesn’t really amount to anything... you could’ve gotten a lot of them right by chance and even if you were actually able to understand everything, that doesn’t mean you can actually use language. How can they call it a proficiency test when it doesn’t actually even try to assess a participant’s proficiency?
I know. It is the worst national proficiency test I know. There probably are worse ones but most major developed countries have much more sensible and modern tests. Japan is the world's No.3 economy. It seems amazing that JLPT is their official national test.
Organic Japanese with Cure Dolly I wonder why they don’t change it to make it better? There’s no way they don’t realize it’s a bad test...
@@annafilou Well it would involve getting a lot more qualified teaching staff on the ground I guess. It's a very simple (and cheap) exam to hold and grade as it stands.
Sensei how do you suggest to approach watching Japanese subtitles in anime. Should we use romaji first or dive straight into Japanese ones? Only problem I have with Japanese ones is that they often have kanji that I have never seen.
Romaji really is a bad idea, and in any case I am not sure you could find them now. We all had to struggle with the unknown kanji problem. If you have the subtitles in a browser you can use Yomichan on them. You need to be learning words and learning them as romaji entities is a bad, bad idea.
Hello Chetna, I am far from fluent in Japanese but I can offer you the advice that I give to my English students.
1. Know the TV episode you are watching before you watch it. Either watch the episode first in English or read a synopsis of it online (ideally, if you are able to, in Japanese). It kind of sucks, I get it. But ultimately you need context before you can successfully understand the motivations behind the characters' words, "Why did he say that?" If you don't, you don't know why people are saying the things that they do, and any chance of you understanding nuance is gone. Your mind needs the broad strokes so when you watch the TV show you can fill in the gaps by learning what they are saying.
2. Turn off the subtitles and only turn them back on to record sentences and phrases that you are unfamiliar with. Research their meaning, then using an SRS, such as Anki, record them and build up a bank of sentences and images to help you build your vocabulary.
3. Watch the same episode many times. This will develop your listening skills, as you what are you learning is being constantly reinforced through repetition. It's a good way to help practice speaking as you can pause the episode and repeat back what is being said.
4. After every scene or episode, write a brief synopsis of what happened (in Japanese). Find a language partner, (I recommend Hellotalk) and read your synopsis and ask for corrections
or suggestions for better phrasing.
I hope this helps out.
Learning words in thematic groups (ex.: names of fruits) is a bad idea
I've been trying out Bunpro and I'm not sure if its a good program after watching this.
Is Bunpro a good program?
I haven't tried it and it is paywalled so it is hard to take a quick look. Obviously it won't teach actual grammatical structure as nothing does except me (sorry if that sounds immodest, it is just the case). I have never been too sure about sentence-based methods, but they may work for some people.
"Well I taught you cringe grammar now, go ahead and start reading cringe" 7:03
why do you hate french ?
i am sad now 😢
@@yoshihasascendeddon't be sad! I have nothing against french, I just can't not hear it as "cringe" the way she pronounces it
Passed N1 after doing a year of immersion and doing RTK 1 (learned about it first from the PASSED JLPT N1 and STILL NOT FLUENT video). One thing I can say is that I can read reasonably quick. But yeah, I've been working on pitch accent and Keigo so I can sound decent when I finally switch to a job that requires Japanese.
I used educated guessing to get through the grammar since I basically didn't study it. The listening was easy apart from some obvious slurring and I was aware that the reading section would try to trick me so I looked out for only what the writers were saying and not what I think they were implying. I also only read the first and last sentences of each paragraph instead of wasting time reading every word (unfortunate since I love reading Japanese)
If I didn't learn Japanese for myself and to understand Japan around me or Japanese media and hobbies, I would get depressed considering no one knows I can speak Japanese, nor should that have a reason to talk me in said language even if they did know I could speak it.
I'm rewatching this video again and I'm beggining to notice how many people learn Japanese in a wrong way. It really makes me feel bad 'cause you see there are lots of people who really wanna learn this language but they struggle because of this JLPT (for this reason I'm really hating this exam).
I'm not joking, this language is probably the worst-teached language I've ever known...
If you wanna get into a language you need to THINK in that language not just learn some grammatical structure here and there...😖
You are completely right. There is a lot of passion for Japanese and a lot of people really want to learn but it is taught really poorly. I am trying to help to change that.
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 You are doing an incredible work, really.
I don't know how to put it but I owe you one. ANYTHING. Thank you so much🙏
JLPT is too much of a school exam and does not translate into reality. Someone can be a JLPT N1 and still not understand anything of the real world. While those who study Grammar and vocab while using mostly immersion can easily make it due to the fact they use it and have to listen to real world examples than learning for the test and a classroom.
Yes, that's true.
She died. :(
E
People don't take JLPT to improve their japanese, people take it cause without it you can't work LOL
If that's necessary you just have to bite the bullet, but many people regard JLPT stages as the "benchmarks" to learn Japanese by even though they don't actually need it.
It's not only a multiple-choice test, it also has some thing going beyond that the creators know, the score are not only measured on the number of right answers
you are right, but i disagree. i agree that your way of teaching is far more usefull and interesting and it is the right way and i love it, but your way lacks 1 single point: practice. you give many suggestions about it, but no way they really work. I need something that tells me: is this the right way or the wrong way to use this grammar point? and i need many ones, until i get it, or that being said in another way, until i am proficient. I have bought your book months ago. Where are other books with many practical case studies? if you have, i 'll buy. If you don't have, i stay with jlpt.
so:
1) jlpt has nothing to do with the way of teaching japanese, as you said.
2) jlpt is a way of promoting japanese by proposing a challenge.
3) jlpt is an objective way of testing, without using too much resources all over the world as you said and with a reasonable cost, not cheap. In my test room there were 30 people, 1 teacher and 1 assistant. 30 x 50€ = 1500€ vat included for 1 single day of work. there are 2 people to pay, a room to rent and many other expenses. but, there were 2 N5 room with 60 hito taking test and other 2 person to control the room: 3000€ just for N5.for N3 there were many more people .
4) jlpt gives you steps to achieve.
5) jlpt gives you material. ( why i don't read books in japanese? there is almost nothing interesting for me to read at my present level).
6) jlpt doesn't test your ability to speak japanese. It only tests your ability to undestand japanese.
7) jlpt questions are very tricky and well done for a multiple choices test, with subtle grammar differeces you need to know.
8) practicing for jlpt gives you a way of getting used to the grammar points, not only reading but actively thinking.
9) more over: jlpt is based on speed. you cannot think about anything when you are on test. you know or you guess, better if you know, cause guessing everything doesn't lead to pass the test.
10) jlpt test is funny. you meet people with onaji interests and you have 2 hours to learn what is the meaning of being focused. I don't need japanese for anything, but i like the way my brain is engaged during test.
@Arcaea Autoplay I will reply in a few hours and it will be interesting
Well i am not here to agree or disagree.
Just sharing experience..
From the day 1 started learning I started Japanese anime with Japanese subtile and Japanese.io extension.
I didn't know anything but my brain caught various sentence structure like kureru,ageru,nakerebanaranai etc etc.. And when turning book these points were already in my subconscious. And became way easier to learn
So immersion helps, for language learning we dont need to understand. Brain will automatically recognize the patterns if you make your brain believe that this I am learning in language, not a class book.
@Hare Krishna usually you don't use your brain, your brain is using you. you are a subfunction.
@David Davidson let's get fun: why do you need japanese?
@Arcaea Autoplay Thank you! You said everything I might have said and I have nothing to add! I am very happy that you understand my approach so well!
This is a very relevant video but please change the voice. It is very difficult to listen to this voice for 16 minutes
Change my voice? I'm not a mimic or a ventriloquist, I'm an android.
@@organicjapanesewithcuredol49 I know :-). Please develop a more human voice :-).
@@AshokN Well I am a self-learning unit and I keep trying for a more human sound - I hope I am getting there.