Very Interesting Paul...and makes so much sense. What about stability...I would think concrete would not move but stones and rocks would? I am thinking of a gate post that has to be solid because it has a gate on the end of it moving all the time.
This method really works! We put up a pole barn 40 years ago this way, still standing. I'd add, use a rot-resistant wood, like cedar, or black locust (smaller diameter projects like fence posts).
We burned the bottom of the posts for our offgrid home in Maine. It is too new to tell how long it will last but fortunately we also went along with your advice on keeping water drainage away from them too. Great videos. I appreciate how and what you teach. Thank you.
Since Permies is a forum, I came into this video from the newsletter thinking it was about forum posts. :) To be fair to myself, the newsletter only said, "what we do to make our posts not rot" (no mention of ground).
Really enjoyed this video. Simplified without sounding like you're talking to a toddler. But I have a question ⁉️ How do you handle building timber frame on top of bedrock?
Great info, I only wonder what about fence posts that have to be on a flat land (no eve, limited possibilities for earthworks). Will rocks under and gravel around be enough?
The post will still get wet from rain and snow melt, and possibly a high water table, but will drain better. If black locust wood is available, it is naturally rot resistant and would be a great option.
@@Mark-xt8jp A neighbor replaced black locust steps that were 120 years old. The anchoring posts had shrunk in diameter where they were buried in the ground, but the whole stair was still stable and fully functional. We were all amazed.
What are your thoughts on using a Simpson Strong-Tie Common 6-in x 6-in Zmax Wood To Concrete (Retrofit) Base? You can pour the concrete and push the bolt into the wet concrete to catch the nut when putting the tie on. Water never touches the wood at all and goes right through the metal.
Another option is not burying the posts at all. Building on peers is ancient with many centuries old buildings still going strong. Prob not necessary for animal shelters/ barns etc but human housing etc it makes total sense.
I'm not sure how this would work for my situation. We are in heavy clay soils and also have high water tables. I've dug 3 foot deep holes before and the next day they are half full of water.
This seems like a good approach, however in my experience, all the voids in the gravel wrap will eventually fill in with soil if it is seeing any water. Maybe a filter would help this? I would still prefer concrete since it probably holds less moisture than muddy rocks.
You threw me for a loop. Mentally, I was thinking fencepost, but when you said 5' overhang. Mighty strange corner post /hbrace assembly. My only addition to you method of setting posts is to add tamping. You are putting a 8-14' lever arm in place. Compacting the gravel in 2" increments is good enough for a crane base so it should be good enough for a post frame construction.
The wofati design, the oehler design, the berm shed design and the holzer design all use posts in the ground for structures. And people seem to feel a powerful urge to inform us of "other" approaches that are largely based on fence posts - pretty fair, but ...
Looks good to me as long as it is cedar where I live in Ontario. Hemlock or Tamarack are good second fiddles to cedar but otherwise I would not bury the post.
What about treatment of wood like borax/boric acid? We live in a brick and cement house but the roof tiles have timber framing. I heard they were boiled in diesel. What do you do concerning termites? Regular inspection?
I just saw my first colony of termites here in central Missouri after being out here in the woods for two years! They started swarming out of the GROUND like dandelion seeds in the wind, rather than out of a piece of dead wood. I've seen signs of them before, but so far not had issues with them attacking my red oak structures. Tones of boring beetles, though, one per tree, 95% of the time.
Termites only travel through damp soil. A sufficiently deep 'moat' of large stones would do the trick. (Off hand I would guess 18 inches but honestly I don't know)
@@priestesslucy I had a piece on concrete and a wooden post resting on that. Both were above ground level and they built a tunnel from the earth to the post. I guess they still outsmart us.
I am still not quite convinced that sleeving a post does not work. If the post is reasonably dry any remaining moisture should escape upwards. And, how much moisture are we talking about anyway that could cause rot? Can't be too much. I have read that sleeved posts are proving to last decades. I wish I could find a definitive answer when it comes to sleeving because that is the easist for me to do on my build.
More than one University has dispelled the "charring the end of posts" myth. Check out any of the many Agri-business Universities if you want the science about how to do it right.
I have been asked this so many times in the last six months or so I needed this video to point at to explain my position.
Very Interesting Paul...and makes so much sense. What about stability...I would think concrete would not move but stones and rocks would? I am thinking of a gate post that has to be solid because it has a gate on the end of it moving all the time.
@@AlForte13 pack the gravel. Very deep hole.
@@paulwheaton makes sense we have caliche not far under - I better get the jack hammer out then...LOL thanks.
@@AlForte13 I've heard you can soften caliche with vinegar, no experience to confirm
@@priestesslucy it makes sense we have caliche here I am going to have to try it. Vinegar is an acid
This method really works! We put up a pole barn 40 years ago this way, still standing. I'd add, use a rot-resistant wood, like cedar, or black locust (smaller diameter projects like fence posts).
I like my rot-resistant wood just the way I like my water, full of arsenic.
We burned the bottom of the posts for our offgrid home in Maine. It is too new to tell how long it will last but fortunately we also went along with your advice on keeping water drainage away from them too. Great videos. I appreciate how and what you teach. Thank you.
Very good info, thank you! I was going to do the Oehler method this fall, but you've changed my mind.
Totally excellent in its simplicity.
Simple yet so full of blisters XD
@@rockethair ??? No blisters in an overhang or rocks and gravel.
Since Permies is a forum, I came into this video from the newsletter thinking it was about forum posts. :) To be fair to myself, the newsletter only said, "what we do to make our posts not rot" (no mention of ground).
I will be doing wooden posts much differently from now on. Thank you for sharing
I tried the concrete approach and yep. They rotted off.
Very cool.
Thanks for sharing.
Really enjoyed this video. Simplified without sounding like you're talking to a toddler. But I have a question ⁉️
How do you handle building timber frame on top of bedrock?
well done
Great info, I only wonder what about fence posts that have to be on a flat land (no eve, limited possibilities for earthworks). Will rocks under and gravel around be enough?
The post will still get wet from rain and snow melt, and possibly a high water table, but will drain better. If black locust wood is available, it is naturally rot resistant and would be a great option.
@@Mark-xt8jp A neighbor replaced black locust steps that were 120 years old. The anchoring posts had shrunk in diameter where they were buried in the ground, but the whole stair was still stable and fully functional. We were all amazed.
What are your thoughts on using a Simpson Strong-Tie Common 6-in x 6-in Zmax Wood To Concrete (Retrofit) Base? You can pour the concrete and push the bolt into the wet concrete to catch the nut when putting the tie on. Water never touches the wood at all and goes right through the metal.
Another option is not burying the posts at all. Building on peers is ancient with many centuries old buildings still going strong. Prob not necessary for animal shelters/ barns etc but human housing etc it makes total sense.
"piers" not "peers". That really confused me for a moment.
I'm not sure how this would work for my situation. We are in heavy clay soils and also have high water tables. I've dug 3 foot deep holes before and the next day they are half full of water.
French drain!
This seems like a good approach, however in my experience, all the voids in the gravel wrap will eventually fill in with soil if it is seeing any water. Maybe a filter would help this? I would still prefer concrete since it probably holds less moisture than muddy rocks.
A small concrete collar?
You threw me for a loop. Mentally, I was thinking fencepost, but when you said 5' overhang. Mighty strange corner post /hbrace assembly.
My only addition to you method of setting posts is to add tamping. You are putting a 8-14' lever arm in place. Compacting the gravel in 2" increments is good enough for a crane base so it should be good enough for a post frame construction.
The wofati design, the oehler design, the berm shed design and the holzer design all use posts in the ground for structures. And people seem to feel a powerful urge to inform us of "other" approaches that are largely based on fence posts - pretty fair, but ...
Thanks for this! What size gravel do you use around the posts in the ground?
Sometimes we make our own - so it's about a half inch to 2 inches. When we buy, we buy 3/4 inch.
Looks good to me as long as it is cedar where I live in Ontario. Hemlock or Tamarack are good second fiddles to cedar but otherwise I would not bury the post.
What about treatment of wood like borax/boric acid? We live in a brick and cement house but the roof tiles have timber framing. I heard they were boiled in diesel. What do you do concerning termites? Regular inspection?
I guess we don't have termites in montana, so i have never tried to deal with them.
I just saw my first colony of termites here in central Missouri after being out here in the woods for two years! They started swarming out of the GROUND like dandelion seeds in the wind, rather than out of a piece of dead wood. I've seen signs of them before, but so far not had issues with them attacking my red oak structures. Tones of boring beetles, though, one per tree, 95% of the time.
Termites only travel through damp soil.
A sufficiently deep 'moat' of large stones would do the trick. (Off hand I would guess 18 inches but honestly I don't know)
@@priestesslucy I had a piece on concrete and a wooden post resting on that. Both were above ground level and they built a tunnel from the earth to the post. I guess they still outsmart us.
I am still not quite convinced that sleeving a post does not work. If the post is reasonably dry any remaining moisture should escape upwards. And, how much moisture are we talking about anyway that could cause rot? Can't be too much. I have read that sleeved posts are proving to last decades. I wish I could find a definitive answer when it comes to sleeving because that is the easist for me to do on my build.
Wow!
This rocks
I have posts I concreted in 10 years ago, still going strong, are you guys not using pressure treated wood?
Get back to me when you hit 30 years - that's the real test.
@@paulwheaton a pressure treated post is going to weather away in 30 years
More than one University has dispelled the "charring the end of posts" myth. Check out any of the many Agri-business Universities if you want the science about how to do it right.
Or just make it out of black locust.
Black locust posts dating back well over 100 years are still found intact on the East coast.